Live Blogs Pannic Reads Stuff He Hates

Pannic2012-06-30 18:18:12

Lol! Thsi si still amusing.

So, again missing the whole point of how The Enclave operated. ANY pegasus who went to the surface was irrevocably contaminated. The entire way they stayed in power was making sure every pegasus believed this. And the Enclave needed them to believe that, going to the surface meant instant, brutal, painful death. That there was no hope yet, nothing TO go down and help, they had to wait for things to improve.

Nopony would even know there WAS stuff below the clouds worth helping aside from the very, very few patrols that the Enclave send down, who were forbidden from interacting with the locals, and just to observe and return. hence why every Dashite we know of, was an Enclave officer, who went below, saw how it REALLY was, and actually wanted to help.

The Enclaves whole power base was based on this fact, on keeping ponies believing this lie. They would never do anything like this, because that would be admitting that things were not as bad as they need ponies to believe they are. the whole POINT to setting off the SPP was to show the pegasi the truth.

So, before this, minor character issues, some oddities, tonal things that just make no sense to be in the same verse... but, made it to chapter four before doing something that fully and completely shows the story doesn't care about the actual facts of the story it was based on.

Oh, don't worry! You'll get to it soon.

Nah, this is just a retcon of FO:E. In PH, the Enclave is a regular Wasteland faction that has ground bases and does trading with Wastelanders. Yes, it's utterly contradictory, but you'll soon see that PH puts very little effort into sticking with FO:E canon, besides the Broad Strokes. And that's totally fine—it's its own story after all—but it still annoys me whenever people think that PH is canon.

It's not 'fine' if it tries to pretend it actually takes place in the same verse as a story, who's facts it is altering for it's own ends. If you are basing a story, on an existing one, then you have to either

A. Don't alter things, and keep true to a story you are basing your own off of.

Or

B. Flat out admit you don't care and call it 'inspired by' "AU to" something to show that you fully admit it is not the same 'verse and your story cannot exist next to the other. While still having some similar elements.

Not try to get the best of both worlds. Alter anything at a whim, while still acting like you are perfectly in line with the story and totally able to be canon. You do NOT retcon another persons story, just for the sake of your own.

Seraphem, fan fiction in general often alters or ignores canon in order to tell its story. Fallout: Equestria itself falls into this category, as FO:E sure isn't a logical extension of FIM.

Project Horizons is a *fan fiction* of Fallout: Equestria, with all that that implies. It can hardly be more clear than that.

... "Project Horizons is a fan fiction of..."

Stupid Reddit markup. Stupid not being able to edit posts...

Edit: Oh, so you have to go to this page, then click the comment number. That is seriously one of the most unintuitive implementations I've ever seen on a website, ever.

Don't tell that to Tam.

Also, comments can be edited. You go to the main Liveblog page, click on the number of comments, and then you can edit yours.

Also, fuck. I thought I updated the blog with my Partially Kissed Hero bitching, but it didn't go up. Well, at least most of it's safe.

The comment number is unclickable. You sure that's not a privilege reserved for the original liveblogger?

It doesn't matter fan-fiction or not. If you are basing your story on an existing one, you do NOT retcon things. You do not alter the facts of the existing story. You either keep those facts the same, or admit your story is not in line with that one. That it is an AU, a 'what if' something.

FOE, did not alter any of the actaul facts presented in the show. Did not retcon anything.

PH, says.. nonononono that story, the one I'm based off of, here's how it REALLY happened.

Kkat, kept as close to the existing story as possible, did not alter things, but worked to make sure everything was within the bounds of the facts laid down. Respected the work they were using.

Somber, does not even try, ignores facts, alters them, all while saying this is perfectly in canon with FOE, that this was what REALLY happened. That his is the REAL story.

It's fanfiction. None of it is real.

Yes it is. Not in a "this really happened" sense. But in that it exists. Whether or not the events in a story really happened, it does not make the story itself any less real.

You do NOT base your work on an existing story, and then use it to retcon the facts of said story. Ignore anything you want, change things to better suit your own story.

If your story cannot be connected to the existing one without any changes to the existing one needing to be made, then you do NOT connect it. By it's very nature, it is not able to be part of the same story. Either you make sure YOUR story complies to the established facts of the world you seek to set it in. Or you set it in your own world.

Doing what Somber does with PH. Slamming YOUR story into another one, taking it over, trying to say "No no no, here's what REALLY happened." Retconing things to suit your own story is one of the worst, most insulting, most disrespectful things I can think of an author can do to another.

No! Because it's a fan fiction! That's what fan fiction does. That's what FO:E did to FIM (it slammed ponies going to nuclear war into a series where that would never, ever happen). Somber does not claim that Project Horizons is canon to FO:E, and he never has. It's his own story, existing self-contained within itself, and he can do whatever he wants with it, just like Kkat did with FO:E, or any fan fiction writer does with any story.

No, FOE didn't retcon anything. Things changed yes, but they were not retcons. It didn't go back to already existing events, and change what happened in them. That is the issue. Not adding onto a story, but going back, and using yours to erase part of another and supplement yours in it's place. THAT is retconing.

It's his own story, existing self-contained within itself,

That is the issue, it isn't. He choose to link it to another story, to make his story, part of another one, and then proceeded to butcher the original whenever he felt it would benefit his own.

No, FO:E doesn't retcon any part of FIM. It is, however, contradictory in spirit, because nuclear war would never happen in FIM.

Project Horizons occasionally retcons parts of FO:E, but mostly it's just contradictory in spirit. (This is in comparison to something like Murky Number Seven, which isn't contradictory in facts or spirit.)

From your statements, I assume that you must find factual contradictions (retcons) worse than contradictions in spirit, but I also assume you don't like either than much. So, I ask you: Why does FO:E gets a pass for uttery and completely butching the Fallout game series, in both facts and spirit? Kkat cherry-picked the parts she liked out of Fallout, and threw away the rest, making sure to completely ignore the themes and style of Fallout as well.

And that's fine. Because it's a fan fiction. But don't rage on Somber for him doing stuff Kkat is FAR, FAR more guilty of doing.

Because Kkat gave explanations for why things changed. It wasn't just "Oh suddenly this is different." All the changes, the why, made sense to me, I could see how those changes could take place. It was a gradual process. It felt natural. You could see how things got from what we knew, to what was going on. Because all of it made sense withing the narrative.

because nuclear war would never happen in FIM.

Not as it is now. BUT, FOE gave, at least for me, a plausible reason why things changed. What could drive things to that point. And because I could see those actions being done. Not in a 'this is the only way it could have happened" deal but, in a "This is certainly one plausible way".

And to me, no it isn't contradicting the spirit of it. Not on the whole. Yes the characters did stray, did go to far, but for all the right reasons. It was losing sight of the spirit, of those virtues, of what made Equestria so amazing that led to it's downfall, that led to the horrors of the wastes. Ponies forgetting that spirit. And it was only through rediscovering it, being willing to fight for it, that things improved. It's a glowing affirmation of just how powerful, how important the spirit of what the show is about IS.

Versus. What PH does. I've had plenty of people, including Somber himself explain everything that went into making Stable 99 what it was and, I can not see any plausible way things could turn into.. THAT. The alteration to spirit, comes not as a result of natural evolution as things change in the story. But, is forced in, just for the sake of changing it. Which, is hardly the only one. And then, when combined with all the factual retcons, which, there is no excuse for. Spirit can be up to interpretation, facts are facts. (And some of the things he himself has said.) It gives me the impression, he just doesn't care about the original story, beyond how he can use it for his own.

So, I ask you: Why does FO:E gets a pass for uttery and completely butching the Fallout game series, in both facts and spirit?

Because while she used some elements of the games, the actual narratives had no direct connection, it wasn't taking place in that world.

I DO tend to, preferably, treat every story as it's own, self contained world. Only making connections from that, to ones that the story itself establishes a narrative connection to between itself and another story. Links the events of both as happening together.

PH does this to FOE

FOE does this to MLP, but does not do this to Fallout.

Here's the problem. Your response mostly boils down to "I like the way Kkat altered canon, but I don't like the way Somber did".

Let's pretend that I'm someone who didn't like the alterations FO:E made to canon. I hated the way Kkat made Pinkie into a drug addict, and I hated the way she died before she could redeem herself. I hated the way Kkat turned Trixie from a boastful entertainer into an evil goddess trying to cause the genocide of ponies. I hated how Kkat made Celestia into an ineffectual leader who gave up on her ponies the moment she felt some despair, despite canon Celestia willing to fight against Discord's reign of terror, banishing her sister after she went insane, and calmly ruling Equestria alone for a thousand years. Kkat's Celestia gave up because some ponies died, despite Equestria needing her more than ever. I hate how Kkat turned the beautiful land of Equestria into a war-torn world far more evil and corrupted than even the worst of humanity has ever fallen to.

So, let's say I hate how Fallout: Equestria butchered the world of FIM, and, not only that, but I also hate how some fans have the gall to say that FO:E is a "natural progression" of FIM. I say: No it's not, it completely contradicts everything about FIM.

I hate Kkat because "[she] choose to link [FO:E] to another story, to make [her] story part of another one, and then proceeded to butcher the original whenever [she] felt it would benefit [her] own."

What would you say to me if that were actually my opinion?

Knowing me, go down those point by point, and give a detailed reason why I don't see it that way. How it makes sense within the context of the story.

And to address the more direct issue, comparing that to my feelings for PH, it's lacking a few things to be completely accurate. And being just why I have such the reaction I do. The FOE-MLP changes, yeah those could get that reaction from someone. As could the, and does, the PH-FOE changes. The issue is how they are handled, not just what they are.

Everything FOE changes, it does so after the fact. Everything the happened in the existing narrative, happened exactly as it did, no changes, all of this was changes that occurred to the setting afterwards. A possible future. PH, goes back and alters the past. Takes existing events, and changes them. Says "No this isn't how things really happened, THIS is." And then add on, that all the FOE changes, are all tonal, spirit. No actual existing facts were altered. Made to be different then they were. PH, not so much.

THAT is the core of the issue. PH going back and altering existing events. Changing the narrative it is using for it's own purpose. Not in a, "those things happened, and then this happened after" way like FOE does. But in a "Those events didn't happen like that, they really happened like this." way.

Kkat doesn't seem to have minded too much, given he/she gave the fic a stamp of approval and is by all accounts friends with Somber.

The "approved" tag had nothing to do with the story itself. All the approval was for, was for giving PH it's own separate update slot on EQD. Rather then being lumped in with the monthly FOE side fic update post.

But treated as any non-FOE related story is.

For god's sake, I could write out this argument by myself.

UL: But in FO:E, there's plenty of stuff that doesn't line up with canon, like Twilight not being an alicorn. And that's fine, of course, because FO:E was planned and written before these changes happened. This applies to Project Horizons too. PH was planned and began being written only a few months into FO:E being published. The only major outright violation of canon PH has is the whole Enclave thing, which was planned before we knew all the details of the Enclave (which didn't come in FO:E until around Act 5).

Seraph: But PH's whole plot revolves around there being tons of secrets during the war, and Goldenblood was the guy actually behind a lot of things/ that happened in FO:E. Those were all deliberate retcons. It's Somber saying "What you read in FO:E isn't true. It really happened this way".

UL: But none of Goldenblood's secrets actually outright contradict canon, they're merely additions. Yes, it's contradictory in spirit, because FO:E never suggested that politics during the war were nearly as convoluted as PH makes it out to be, but you already said that contradictions in spirit aren't the problem—outright retcons are.

And on, and on, and on...

And Spike leaving his cave to save Blackjack. Big Mac being shot by a weapon that didn't exist yet and completely invalidated AJ's entire reason for making the Steel Ranger armor. Him being an Equestria wide famous war hero, BEFORE getting shot.

And I didn't say changes to spirit weren't a problem at all, but that those are at least arguable, that it could just be differing interpretations. To a point. The shear amount of THOSE in PH. And then the ignoring/changing facts as well added on top. More then passes the point where he's even trying. And on top of THAT, the simple fact of going backwards to alter the past in the first place. And in a way that is not an admitted 'What if" or 'Maybe" but is framed and treated as it being the 'true' way things happened.

As to canon differing over time. There is a difference between writing a fic based on an ongoing, open ended show like MLP is, where no one knows where the end will be, and there is no single overall, pre-plotted story. And Something that you know will be a finite, planned out, completed, self contained story. AND Kkat adjusted the story as new canon emerged, tried to keep it as close as possible as new stuff came out. And yeah the Discord thing could have been done better, and already went over how the RCV armor was a goof, but the important part is, she tried.

Even THEN, there is still doing something like what Sereg did with his fics. (Non-FOE related.) He tried his best to stay in canon as he went. But eventually something happened in the show that he simply could not fit into the canon of his stories. So, he simply said flat out and admitted. "These are an AU to the show now." Admitted that no, the story was not directly, narratively tied to those stories, but rather it's own separate entity, related to, but not connected directly to the show. That his story was impossible to fit in the other stories canon.

But that's what Project Horizons is. It is an AU. Somber says that it's not supposed to be canon to...

Ugh. Actually, can we just agree to disagree? I'm tired...

I've never seen or heard him say that. Every time he talks about the retcons, it's always about why, about it makes much more sense his way, about how it's impossible things weren't the way he pictured them. Never just flat out admitting, his story is impossible to reconcile with FOE's story.

But yes, it's even less disagreeing and more, just trying to explain WHY this thing gets such a reaction out of me.

I'd rather get comments on the shitty Harry Potter fic I reviewed. Come on, I wasted a lot of time on that.

Pannic: Lurky lurk. We can chat on IRC.

Seraphem: I'm curious. If we assume for a moment that you're 100% correct in your assessment of Somber and his take on Fo E's canon and themes, what would you suggest he do to rectify things? I'm seeing a whole lot of complaints here, but not many suggestions.

Honestly, I agree with Seraphem that FOE's "altering of canon" didn't change anything we knew at the time when the fic began. A retcon is something completely different ad as a bit of a canon whore, I am also less than pleased when a fic seems to retcon stuff for no apparent reason without admitting what it's doing.