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Frost Man

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He's cold, but he can still express himself. But don't forget, he's still ice cold.

This trope has been Nuked
Proposed By:
Troper321 on Aug 8th 2018 at 11:38:48 PM
Last Edited By:
Troper321 on Aug 15th 2018 at 12:34:09 PM
Name Space: Main
Page Type: trope

"We cannot make everybody happy, so we quite simply do what's best for business."
Triple H, WWE

Although men are stereotyped as aggressive, messy, and unemotional, they are also classified as being open, often expressing themselves freely. However, with the Frost Man, the shoe is on the other foot.

He expresses his feelings and emotions, however, if crossed he can be as cold as ice. A Frost Man has to be more than unpleasant to other characters, lack empathy, or lack emotions altogether. He has to show: his emotional coldness is not a facade, that it's a prime part of his personality, that he's genuinely cold and icy but still able to express his emotions, and is capable of turning cold (at least once) to show that he can discard his emotional side as a reminder that he can be expressive, but still can be cold hearted.

Often times, if not always, the Frost Man may be someone who suffered painful experiences such as: cruel parenting, being outcasted or bullied, or other harmful outside factors. He usually learned to repress these feelings and build a wall of ice internally, expressed either when triggered or through his emotions heavily. Mostly as a way to show that he is able to experience his emotions while at the same time being depicted as not so warm.

A character who simply shows anger or rage does not make them a Frost Man.
Compare with Real Men Hate Affection, Men Are Tough, Men Don't Cry, and Sugar-and-Ice Personality.

Not to be confused with a robot from Mega Man 8.

Examples:

    open/close all folders 

    Anime and Manga 
  • In the beginning of Naruto, Sasuke is able to express his emotions clearly such as arrogance, sadness, and especially anger. However, Sasuke also manages to show that despite being able to express his emotions he's able to switch to being cold and relentless, such as glaring hardly at Naruto for him to fight him. Or when Naruto told him how far the village went to save Sasuke, who coldly replies "well wasn't that nice of them?".

    Video Games 
  • Fenris from Dragon Age is known for being angry, hostile, but also loving if the player decides to pursue a relationship with him. However, he also shows to be a cold person especially as his icy moments include killing his captors protegee and his captor, Denarius, while at the end saying "were done here" while walking away coldly.

    Western Animation 
  • Where in Batman, Batman is simply The Stoic, Bruce Wayne has shown to be an individual who is able to express his emotions. Often suave, composed, and sometimes cocky, Bruce Wayne is your stereotypical rich boy, however due to having a cold personality he is able to revert to ice cold ways. In Arkhamverse in Batman Arkham City, Bruce Wayne shows a cold moment when Penguin attempted to assault him in prison. Leading him to ruthlessly beating both him and his goons.
  • Robin from Teen Titans is known to be a serious character altogether while experiencing open emotions such as joy, obsession, and even romance. However he is known to revert back to the coldness within him. Such as when Archenemy Slade says that he could be Robin's father only for Robin to answer back coldly, "I already have a father." Or when in Tokyo, when in an intimate moment with Starfire, Robin harshly tells her that instead of being more than a hero "a hero is all that I am".
  • Stewie Griffin from Family Guy in the beginning was a very serious character who focused on world domination and killing his mother. However, he expresses emotions of being delighted, angry, and even understanding. Despite this, he is able to return to being cold which is most commonly seen when he beats Brian up over money owed to him.
  • Cartman from South Park is known for being harsh and cold while also being able to laugh, cry, and get angry. However, Cartman manages to show a cold moment in which he killed a teenagers parents, grinded them into chili, and had the boy eat it. In addition to having his favorite band see him cry, which all summed up to the teen crying. Causing Cartman to coldly mock him while licking the teen's tears and describing them as "yummy".

    Wrestling 
  • Randy Orton from WWE is known to be a cold character but also experiences emotions such as pride, anger, and often arrogance. However, he has shown to bring down his true coldness by beating Triple H in a match, knocking his wife out, and kissing her in front of a beaten Triple H while coldly smirking at him afterwards.

Feedback: 104 replies

Aug 8th 2018 at 11:55:45 PM

For the name, I still like Frosty Man.

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:44:16 AM

Okay, real talk, what is your focus with this? This is the fourth time you've tried to make this, and it's literally the only thing you've done on the site.

For the record, Attempt 1, Attempt 2, Attempt 3.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:04:44 AM

^ I've been helping them try and figure out the main focus for this so I at least believe this draft will be shorter, sweeter, and less reliant on other tropes.

... A description and Laconic will help people warm up to this attempt, though...

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:26:05 AM

Okay, I think this is a good start.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:31:40 AM

So from what I can tell, this is just evolving into an Analysis/ for Ice Queen, specifically about the rare male example.

To quote acrobox in the last draft you made, Tropes like this one get into trouble because they sound more like overarching theories or a hypothesis that's fishing for confirmation bias.

Tropes aren't theories of how we think things work. They're catalogues of how we've seen things working.

That's why super broad things tend to break down, unless they're meant to be a super trope. And even a lot of those are done to cull misuse or confusion. Or they're tropes that started very specific and then got so broad that they stopped being useful as tropes.

If the subtropes are working just fine without a super trope, then we don't necessarily need the super trope either.

I don't think this needs to exist, certainly not as a separate trope.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:33:54 AM

^ Well, I guess at worst they could transfer this to an analysis page...

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:40:24 AM

I'm not using the Ice Queen as a thing for this draft. The name Frost King is the title of the draft because I can't think of a better name at the moment. Also, I'm not using the tropes like I did last time to create this trope. I learned that's not how tropes are made, they need to stand on their own. And, this trope actually does exist in fiction. Even the real world according to articles I've read involving guys who actually have the same problem as the guy I'm describing. I will give examples once I'm sure this trope has enough details Larkmarn. Thank you for your feedback.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:40:37 AM

Okay reading this over I can tell you one major problem with it that plays into the problems mentioned by Larkmarn. You're focusing more on describing how this trope might happen than describing...well, the trope. Saying things like "men are taught..." and "with no way to express themselves" reads more like an essay or analysis on how men act emotionally rather than an explanation of a specific character.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:44:01 AM

Oh! Then give me an example of how I should correct it and I'll be glad to add into my draft! Thanks!

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:45:52 AM

The issue is that by all appearances, you're not trying to document a trope, you're trying to make one and then find things to back up your thesis. That's not what we're supposed to do here.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:49:51 AM

Well, I think it'd help if you went through and trimmed down any language that could read as being too analytical. Focus on the personality itself with some explanation later on but don't write it in a way that makes it sound like this sort of thing happens to every man. Mention some tropes it's related to- this is different than basing everything around tropes, these concepts don't exist in a vacuum, so what other tropes could you compare or contrast it to?

^ Also, going with what Larkmarn said, do you have any examples you could use? I find tooling the draft just a bit based what the examples typically look like really helps.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:50:59 AM

Oh I get it! I'm writing it down like it's like an argument that I'm trying to back up. Instead of writing the actual personality of the guy the trope is about. Is that what you two are trying to tell me?

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:54:19 AM

You're starting to get it. If it helps, here's my personal process for making TLP drafts: - I notice a particular trend that occurs in media I watch - I take it to Trope Finder or search for it in the indexes I'd expect it to be in - If it doesn't seem to exist, I make my draft with it centered around the tropes I have in mind. - When more examples come in, I might tweak the description if the examples don't fit the box I initially made but still fit the actual trope.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:56:57 AM

Oh! Okay, I think I got it. I should write about the personality and what to expect from the guys character, then compare and contrast it to other tropes that may seem similar to it. Then give small evidence of what causes the behavior, without making that the entire draft.

Aug 9th 2018 at 11:59:48 AM

Give it a shot. Do you have any examples of this phenomenon in fiction, though?

Aug 9th 2018 at 12:41:21 PM

Looking a bit better; why didn't you add examples, though?

Aug 9th 2018 at 12:48:29 PM

I'm trying to get the description to be better and more narrow, then include the examples once it's good.

Aug 9th 2018 at 12:56:24 PM

No, no, add the examples now.

Aug 9th 2018 at 1:07:55 PM

That said, you still have the issue of describing it with a real-world context. I'd edit the beginning to be more fiction specific.

Aug 9th 2018 at 1:36:24 PM

It helps focus the trope if you give an example of a character who is the exact exemplar of the idea you're trying to describe. It helps other users give similar examples and makes it easier for the group as a whole to understand what constitutes an example and a non-example. You'll get a lot more constructive and productive input if you post two or three examples that allows everybody to go "Oh, okay. I see what you're trying to do. How about this?" Heel Face Revolving Door is a lot clearer as a trope if you know that Magneto, torn between his friendship with Charles and his desire for mutant supremacy in the prequel trilogy, is a perfect example.

Aug 9th 2018 at 1:39:09 PM

Also, users tend to bomb drafts without examples because if you have a draft proposal but can't think of fictional examples, it comes across as un-tropeable.

Aug 9th 2018 at 2:57:16 PM

I agree with Andrea and War Jay, you should focus on getting as many examples of this trope as possible before you start trying to write a very detailed description.

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:00:36 PM

Okay! I'm on examples now! Do you guys mind helping?

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:08:19 PM

Hmm... personally, for me, your examples are still too niche for me to understand what you're going for. Do you have any examples from Western media?

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:10:57 PM

Sure, I can post them. But before I do, do my examples seem broad? Should I elaborate on them more?

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:16:40 PM

The Battle Royale example- is he actually repressing them, or does he just not have them? Being a sociopath is different from not showing emotions.

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:16:54 PM

They seem okay for now, but I'll be able to help more if you include Western media examples as I'm more likely to know the characters beyond the few sentences you included and can point out elements of their backstory that might better illustrate your trope description.

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:34:18 PM

Okay!

And War Jay 77, just realized that he was said to be born without emotions. Changing it now.

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:43:14 PM

You're not quite getting it. If he was born without emotions, that makes him a psychopath, in which case there's no emotional repression going on and his "slip ups" are just him displaying regular emotion- just that, as a psychopath, he's apathetic about most things.

Aug 9th 2018 at 3:44:56 PM

Yeah I know. I changed it.

Aug 9th 2018 at 4:10:51 PM

I have three examples! Continuing still.

Aug 9th 2018 at 4:12:38 PM

Btw, all work titles must be italicized, you do that with two apostrophes on each side

Aug 9th 2018 at 4:29:03 PM

Okay, so what I extrapolate from your inclusion of ten-year-old Huey as an example. My thoughts:

  • This was originally coming across as a romance/ attraction trope but it's clearly not
  • It deals with traumatic reaction
  • Huey isn't repressing his emotions. He's simply too jaded by his already numerous experiences of racism to bother expressing them. When he explicitly expresses his thoughts and opinions, he's ignored.
  • With the example of Huey in mind, how do you differentiate between Frost King and Only Sane Man (which Huey is in comparison to Riley, Grandad, Tom, Jasmine, Ruckus, etc.)?
  • Your draft doesn't clarify the difference between a Frost King and someone who's just not very emotional or lively. Like, is Robert from Everybody Loves Raymond a Frost King or simply a monotone, Deadpan Snarker with a zany family?
  • Your draft also doesn't clarify if trauma is requirement for someone to be a Frost King.

Maybe a few more examples? It's hard for me to really base an opinion on a ten-year-old cartoon character who might be a Frost Prince or simply a pre-pubescent teen boy.

Aug 9th 2018 at 4:33:31 PM

Also, how do in-universe characters react to the Frost King? That might help us understand how this nature affects the character and those around him. Being distant isn't a bad thing if you live a life of solitude.

Aug 9th 2018 at 4:41:56 PM

Okay. So according to you, Sasuke, Huey, and Robin are all Frost Kings. What traits do they have in common? What elements of their backstories are similar? If someone from Boondocks crossed over to Teen Titans, what would Robin say or do that would make them go "Man, you remind me of Huey". Try to think of specific examples or quotes that support their Frost King status and then think of how you can re-work your description to clearly and concisely express those similarities.

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:20:10 PM

In in-uninverse, characters usually react to the Frost King in two ways. One, they understand that the character is closed off and completely blunt with what they say. They acknowledge their icy demeanor and usually avoid taking what they say to heart. This usually involves characters that are close or manage to be friends of the Frost King. Or, characters see the Frost King as someone who is mean, arrogant, or simply cold hearted. And will usually avoid, taught, or disrespect the Frost King openly. Whether it be put of fear or just out of hate/dislike.

  • Sasuke would be a Frost King because he is openly cold and uninviting to the characters, even in his group. Over time he revealed a few emotions but returns back to being repressive again. Plus, he has characters who dislike him because of how cold he is. Such as Shikamaru and Neiji. Plus Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi all know he's cold. But they still include him and never abandoned them.

  • Huey is a Frost King because he is jaded and cynical. He doesn't invite others in on his world, which he described when being placed in charge of the play about Jesus. Rather than having people in general (besides Rukus due to racism), Huey has his brother who often shows hostility to him. Often because of viewpoints and Huey's behavior. But still, his family includes him in with them. Whether he likes or not.

  • Robin would be a Frost King because he has friends who recognizes his solemn and uninviting behavior. But they acknowledge him, just as Sasuke's team acknowledges him. Even though the three repress certain feelings, so they don't have to deal with feeling them, they still express coldness in some way from things they repress.

Examples:

  • Huey going to Chicago for his grandfather's friends funereal. He sees his childhood friend hanging out with a revolutionist that he sees as "wack". He voices the opinion strongly after repressing it in which leads to his childhood friend and him fighting.
  • When Sasuke first sees his brother in the hospital after a long time, Sasuke reveals his repressed anger and emotions right then and there. However after being put in the hospital after his failed fight with Itachi, Sasuke returns back to being cold. Even more so since he lost to his brother.
  • Robin takes everything too seriously, which is due to repressing his emotions that allow him to openly take a joke. Especially as the leader of the group. This can be seen when he and his opponent are fighting so he can make his way to the top of the mountain to be taught by the Master. You see it with the bear, the monkey, and the snake. But he eventually learns to lighten up a bit. But he still returns to his nature of being cold.

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:24:28 PM

What you seem to be missing is a connecting thread, a quality they all share. Each could fit but the reasons you give for them fitting are different. What about some common themes?

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:30:37 PM

The difference between a character that's emotionless or not very emotional and the Frost King is that the Frost King has the ability to feel emotions. He just doesn't express them because he represses them. Which resorts to him expressing his bottled in emotions through being cold and icy. A character who is classified as emotionless usually lack the ability to feel emotions or being unable to express their emotions altogether. To make is short, the Frost represses his emotions and expresses them by what it means to be "cold". Where as an emotionless character doesn't feel or express emotions AT ALL.

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:35:33 PM

Oh! The common thread for why they all classify as Frost King's is because they are all the type to hold in their emotions. And then reveal them by being either harsh, blunt, or cold. They all are popular for being serious and collected, rather than entirely emotionless. And what they say could be seen as completely insensitive. Robin, Huey, and Sasuke appear as the type who are extremely private with their feelings, completely controlling of how they feel, and somewhat passive aggressive in speech.

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:40:23 PM

However, they're out of control of what their environment sends out. So they may slip up and show their emotions, whether accidentally or subtly. However, the common theme is that they return back to being cold all over again. They may be more flexible or learn a valuable lesson, but it doesn't change their personality completely. They return back to their original nature while acknowledging what they learned.

Aug 9th 2018 at 5:49:57 PM

Lol, you know you can edit comments, right? You don't have to post three different comments XD

And okay, got it, it just seemed weird how you said "X is a Frost King because Y while Z is a Frost King because A", like instead of having the same reasoning they were all different. But Tropes Are Flexible I suppose.

Aug 9th 2018 at 6:05:53 PM

Honestly, it sounds like Safety In Indifference / Jerkass Facade with moments of Defrosting Ice Queen. While you might legitimately have lots of examples, right now it kind of comes across like you came up with an idea for a trope and then went in search of examples rather than seeing multiple characters displaying the same behavior and analyzing that behavior to come up with a unifying, identifying trope. While I truly want to help, tropes are just another way for saying archetype or character mold, and right now it's hard to see what Huey and Robin have in common. Unfortunately, your explanations aren't very clear to me and come across as a literary analysis rather than a trope explanation. Your key words "cold towards others" and "repressed emotion", don't necessarily equal a trope and can be explained by many of the tropes we have, particularly with Huey and Robin who have dead parents. If you have more examples, please let us have them. The more specific, well-crafted examples, the easier it is to understand the common theme. But right now it's not coming across as a cohesive idea and your cart appears to be ahead of your horse.

Aug 9th 2018 at 6:40:52 PM

Safety In Indifference is saying that, if the person is empty or cold then they can't be hurt. That's not what this trope is about. The Frost King isn't necessarily shielding himself from being hurt by being cold. It's just a way he expresses repressed feelings that he can't show. So he does so by being cold and icy.

Defrosting Ice Queen is about a previous Ice Queen who's heart is thawing. The Frost King's heart isn't necessarily thawing, it's more like it's adapting. An example of this trope being Defrosting Ice Queen would be if a character managed to break the Frost King from repressing his emotions and expressing them openly.

Jerkass Facade is when a character appears cold on top to hide that they're warm underneath. The Frost King isn't necessarily hiding anything. He's openly being cold because he's unable to express himself like a normal person. He's not hiding the fact that he's warm by being cold.

But I'll make the examples specific! Thank you so much!

Also, Defrosting Ice Queen deals with her showing off a more positive side to her since she's always negative. The Frost King doesn't simply show positive sides when he slips. He can show full blown rage, extreme sadness, or joy.

Aug 9th 2018 at 6:13:29 PM

You should probably explain those differences on the draft, then...

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:00:49 PM

I understand what each trope means and I understand what you feel the difference is. I'm asking you to come up with examples that can't be covered by a combination of already established tropes. We have an established and thorough character page for Huey and out of the dozens of tropes listed, the only one that even hints at him being cold or emotionally repressed towards others is Jerkass. It's more along the lines of a hyper-socially aware child prodigy with poor social skills who doesn't like dealing with people's foolishness. I'm trying to figure out what you see in the character that previous tropers didn't that gives you cold and frosty.

I'm not trying to be discouraging. This is simply a discussion. We don't even have the luxury of face to face so there's going to be a lot of back and forth to clarify meaning. From following the convo, I can see that you've tried to propose this draft several times only to have it bombed because of people being confused. If you want to reverse this, you're going to have to be patient and willing to clear up the confusion. It's frustrating, but it's the only way things get launched.

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:06:24 PM

This is also very similar to Jerkass Woobie, although that one also has a "hidden" softer side where this softer side is apparently repressed?

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:15:24 PM

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come as frustrated. I'm not, I was just trying to clarify the difference between my trope and the others. Maybe I'll just take Huey out of the Frost King trope.

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:47:29 PM

The Jerkass Woobie seems to focus more on a character who you sympathize but hate. It seems like this one focuses on someone with a mean streak in order to hide a softer and more warm side. Or at least an understandable motive to their actions.

The Frost King's behavior may be considered mean by others, but it doesn't revolve around him being mean. It revolves around him expressing emotions that he himself can't fully express through a cold nature. Which could come off as mean, but it doesn't focus on that.

The Frost King could inspire a sympathy-hate kind of feel. But it's not trying to reach for that. The trope isn't about sympathy or hate. It could inspire it, but it's not about specifically get that kind of reaction. You know what I'm saying?

Aug 9th 2018 at 7:50:22 PM

I guess. IDK, you seem to understand your idea, but the fact that you need to use so many words to explain the character is a bit worrying.

Aug 9th 2018 at 8:07:00 PM

Alright, I'll summarize the entire draft.

Aug 9th 2018 at 8:26:56 PM

Is it better summed up?

Aug 9th 2018 at 8:33:16 PM

Yeah. Might have some grammar to fix though, I'm noticing a lot of sentence fragments.

Aug 9th 2018 at 8:35:48 PM

Can you help me with that?

Aug 9th 2018 at 8:41:22 PM

Um...all you have to do is look for sentences that aren't a complete thought. Here's one example: "Rather than learning to deal with his feelings, he instead suppressed them. Causing him to learn to automatically seal them..." The second sentence is a fragment.

Aug 10th 2018 at 4:14:25 AM

Fell asleep, am continuing to edit right now.

Aug 10th 2018 at 3:20:10 PM

Just a reminder that a vaguely similar draft titled Grim Grizzled Gorgeous exists. The news is that someone new has grabbed it and... EDIT: Oops no, that's the original sponsor — is attempting to overhaul it.

Aug 10th 2018 at 7:38:07 PM

Thanks. I've been at almost all day.

Aug 11th 2018 at 6:47:16 PM

I think this now has somewhat more of a leg to stand on compared to previous attempts, however this time my concern is that the description reads "The Stoic, but because of trauma-related emotional suppression", and since the examples all detail breaks in the frosty demeanor, it reads like Not So Stoic.

You might want to look at Men Dont Cry and Real Men Hate Affection as well.

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:20:49 PM

^ That's true; I hate to say it, but there's nothing about The Stoic that says the character can't be suppressing their feelings due to trauma.

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:24:30 PM

Oh, I didn't mean to approach it like that, that must be how others see it probably. No, the Frost Men archetype isn't someone who displays an emotionless facade. They're male characters that repress their emotions and only show them through being very practical and business like characters. Which makes others see them as unfriendly or cold. It's not that they hate affection or repress their feelings because it makes them look weak. It's just that this is the only way they know how to deal with them, or cope. However, under certain situations, they'll reveal emotions like from learning something or overcoming something. But it doesn't change them emotionally, it does so more mentally.

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:27:53 PM

Thanks guys for letting me know this! You rock!

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:30:23 PM

But, what on The Stoic page talks about it being a facade of some sort? The laconic is just "a character shows little to no emotion". I can see what you're trying to say, but I think you misunderstood what The Stoic actually is.

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:55:49 PM

Yeah, I think I did for a minute. But still, the Frost Man isn't about being like The Stoic or Not So Stoic. They just repress them and show them through being completely business fashioned with what they do. Which makes others see them as frosty, especially after they learn a lesson. Since they mentally learn from it rather than emotionally, since they remain frigid.

Aug 11th 2018 at 9:54:15 PM

My question now is, how can you tell if a character is being repressive rather than just generally stoic?

Aug 11th 2018 at 10:05:05 PM

A character who is usually repressive is more likely to show that they can express emotions, but generally have a tough time doing it properly like normal people. So like Robin, he can express anger, and revert back to being cold. Show happiness, but revert back to being cold.

Someone who is generally Stoic won't reveal any traces of emotions or express them so very little that it's almost non-existent.

Aug 11th 2018 at 10:04:56 PM

Okay, I guess I see the distinction, but it's a thin line.

Aug 11th 2018 at 10:12:25 PM

Think of it like someone who simply represses their feelings. But has the possibility of showing them properly, but unable to due to it being a way to cope. In contrast to someone who shows absolutely no emotions without worrying about slipping.

Aug 11th 2018 at 10:14:47 PM

I mean, sure, but couldn't someone have the repression without slipping or slip into an emotion without necessarily being repressed? Like I said- I see the line you're painting here, but it's very thin.

Aug 11th 2018 at 10:28:43 PM

Yeah. But repressing is a coping mechanism rather than like a expression. So it could lead to either two tropes. Repressing emotions and never showing them would be a result of The Stoic. Or repressing emotions and showing them through being all business, making you seem cold would result as a Frost Man. It just depends on the effect more like you stated.

Aug 12th 2018 at 7:41:02 AM

^ thing is, it's hard to differentiate them in practice, i.e when you look at a character. It may fall prey to readers giving their own interpretations.

And by the way, not to be confused with a robot from Mega Man 8.

Aug 12th 2018 at 8:05:07 AM

Yeah. So should I put that "it's hard to tell when a character's actually repressing"? Since there's at least two other ways to identify a Frost Man?

Aug 12th 2018 at 11:15:06 AM

The reason I linked Men Dont Cry and Real Men Hate Affection is that they're similar "men and feelings don't mix" subtropes of Men Are Tough that you might want to link in the description as related tropes.

I'm not convinced ^^^ is enough of a distinction to warrant a different trope — I agree with ^^ that basing the difference between this and the Stoic on circumstantial character motivation/backstory could fall prey to Alternative Character Interpretation with The Stoic, which is not a good thing. Perhaps the Gender Dynamics Index has room for a "Real Men Repress Feelings" trope?

Aug 12th 2018 at 1:29:10 PM

I was summoned here by private message to review this fourth attempt, but everything I came here to say has already been said by other tropers.

Aug 12th 2018 at 2:19:49 PM

Hmmm... Real Men Repress Feelings is definitely a trope, as far as I can tell. It'd be a supertrope to Men Dont Cry and Real Men Hate Affection while still having room to have it's own examples, and it wouldn't take a whole lot of tweaking to get that trope out of the current draft.

Aug 13th 2018 at 12:09:51 PM

I'm also struggling to see the difference between Frost King and The Stoic. The Stoic page says 'The Stoic sometimes displays emotion when under extreme stress or in other highly emotional situations', and Not So Stoic covers more extreme lapses in stoicism, so the 'emotionless guy that sometimes slips up' is already covered. Also, most of the character examples on this page are also on the stoic page. Can a person be both a Frost King and a stoic?

Aug 13th 2018 at 12:51:53 PM

Real Men Repress Feelings could be a trope. This isn't it. This is a weird mishmash of The Stoic and a male counterpart of Ice Queen resulting in a TLP looking for a trope, not a trope looking for a TLP. Part of the problem is that by making a trope that is "The Stoic, but has hidden emotions" means that you're effectively redefining The Stoic as The Sociopath.

Aug 13th 2018 at 6:19:14 PM

Hi guys! I was thinking about the messages I've seen and I have two ideas to solve the problem:

1. I was going over the trope and saw that it was too close to The Stoic and the Not So Stoic character tropes. So I took some time to rewrite the entire trope so that it actually is away from the two, as well as any other tropes. Such as The Sociopath, Jerkass Facade, or the Stoic Woobie. With your permission, I would be more than happy to post what I have on to the draft to see if you guys approve.

2. I see you guys proposing the Real Men Repress Their Feelings trope which could be a Super Trope to those focusing in this area. Which seems pretty solid and good.

So, can I interests you guys in seeing what I've done for #1? Or should just head straight for #2?

Aug 14th 2018 at 3:12:01 AM

This one is so deep in bombs, I'm not sure how long it will take to get net five hats, if ever. If you're really serious about changing to Real Men Repress Their Feelings:

  • completely nuke this one
  • start over in a word processor.
  • Come up with a clear, concise, and grammatical definition and description for what you mean by "Real Men Repress Their Feelings." Imagine you only have three sentences to fully explain your idea. What would a person need to know in order to find the perfect character example?
  • If you're going to do it as a subtrope, come up with five examples that fully meet your definition, preferably not all from the same genre. They should have similar root behaviors despite being in different shows and different genres. For example, Gregory House ( House ) and Sherlock ( Sherlock ) have similar root behaviors (Jerkass, Insufferable Genius, Brutal Honesty, etc) because they come from the same archetype (actually, Sherlock is the archetype, but whatever). Or Magneto and MCU Erik Killmonger have similar behavior patterns ( Jerkass Woobie , Jerkass Has A Point , Dark And Troubled Past, etc). Describing these shared behaviors would optimally be more than saying 'Person X is cold and represses his behavior because Y.
  • When you have a solid description that clearly delineates between your trope and others without saying "It's like trope A meets trope B, but leans more towards trope C" (a mistake I've made, LOL) and you have five solid, fleshed out examples, bring it to the launch pad and you're likely to get a lot more help and fewer immediate bombs.

I've never tried to set up a super trope, so someone else might have advice there.

Aug 13th 2018 at 9:27:55 PM

I have set up a supertrope before: Twin Identity Mistake. There I did it as a regular trope but only took examples that didn't fit better in a subtrope, such as Twin Switch.

Aug 14th 2018 at 5:31:34 AM

I see you've changed the idea so there's more focus on their hidden feelings, which...Sugar And Ice Personality

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:07:53 PM

Lol, realize I linked ya'll to a trope that doesn't exist. Sorry, the trope I made was Identical Twin Mistake, my bad.

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:16:14 PM

It's all good my friend!

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:36:08 PM

The proposed trope's difference from Sugar And Ice Personality was explained to me via PM, but I'm putting my response here for posterity:

Read the description of Sugar And Ice Personality again. The cold side doesn't have to be the more common one, the fifth paragraph is all about how the warm/sweet side can be the default until provoked.

Frankly, the way you keep moving the goalposts about what this TLP is supposed to be ("Not The Stoic but X, not Sugar And Ice Personality but X") tells me that you're not documenting a pattern in media but rather creating one from whole cloth and shoehorning examples to fit.

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:47:13 PM

^ That's sort of what I was trying to talk to you about in PM before, honestly. If this exists as a trope, you wouldn't have to keep editing the description and examples to fit a box not covered by something else. You'd be able to design the description around the examples themselves and not need to constantly explain your idea to everyone.

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:49:50 PM

That's cause it's like it's in between those two. He's not a character who necessarily can't show emotions nor is he a character who is completely sweet. He's like that character who's nice by being cold, and mean by being completely harsh. So it's like, the characters see him as someone who is basically mean and cold, which is his normal. But they know he feels emotions and can express them when he wants.

Aug 14th 2018 at 2:51:38 PM

It's hard for me to describe in words. He's cold and mean as his normal, but is able to express normal feelings. So it's very similar to Sugar And Ice Personality. But because it's not necessarily about him being warm, it doesn't really fit as that.

Aug 14th 2018 at 6:24:28 PM

"He's like that character who's nice by being cold, and mean by being completely harsh."

How could "nice" and "cold" go as one in the first place??

Aug 14th 2018 at 6:35:44 PM

The problem is you have to describe it in words. And now that you seem to be pivoting towards Sugar And Ice Personality I'm lost again. As you can see, there are plenty of people willing to give massive amounts of help. The issue, as Synchronicity pointed out, is that this site is based on the premise of finding similar characters and figuring out a trope that connects them. You're going at it from the opposite direction. You have an unwieldy hammer and you're looking for nails when this is a website about finding a particular type of nail, nut, bolt, or screw and figure out what type of tool allows those pieces to go where they should (hey, these characters are all nail and this trope is the hammer that imbeds them properly, but these characters are all screws so I need to figure out what type of screwdriver trope works to get them screwed in.)

You literally would do better to drop this particular idea that's already bombed four times, pick your favorite characters, figure out what they have in common that isn't already covered by a trope here, and developing a trope to cover that unique commonality.

Hint: If you think you have an idea but have to spend hours combing through the internet for the minimum three examples for your proposal, you're going about it the wrong way. When you're on the right track, the initial examples come much easier even if you might have to google for specific details and quotes. Example: Great detectives: Sherlock Holmes, Batman. Friends turned enemies: Clark Kent/ Lex Luthor, Charles Xavier/ Erik Lensher. Patriotic heroes: Superman, Captain America. Freakishly rich superheroes: Iron Man, Batman. Anti-Hero Outlaws: Jax Teller, Boyd Crowder. Precocious kid characters: Kevin Mc Allister (Home Alone) or any character Mac Kulley Culkin plays (excuse the spelling, I didn't google so I'm pretty sure that's wrong. Those examples, I literally came up with without leaving the "post reply" box, although I'm pretty sure all those categories probably already exists as tropes.

Come up with a proposal where you're describing a characteristic you can already see in several of your favorite characters. You're working too hard the way you're doing it now.

Aug 14th 2018 at 6:43:07 PM

Also: most of the time, if the difference between your proposed trope and an existing trope can be described as "very thin", chances are we don't need it. Tropes Are Flexible and Playing With A Trope exist for a reason. In this case, I'd just put someone who is "most of the time 'normal' but freezes up" or vice versa (a description that, I forgot to point out, does not apply to many of your examples from back when this was still more Stoic), as a downplayed example of Sugar And Ice Personality.

Aug 14th 2018 at 7:04:26 PM

Yeah, I'm sorry friend, but we're at an impasse. I know you've worked very hard on this and we're all trying to help you, but you're going about it the wrong way and that's why nothing you try is working. It's harsh, but that's the truth. There's nothing more I can say that hasn't been said that or help I can give I haven't tried- with this draft, at least.

Aug 14th 2018 at 8:28:31 PM

Guys read the new draft that I did, if you don't like it then i'll delete this entire thing. I'll leave it at that.

Aug 14th 2018 at 8:37:44 PM

I gave my thoughts on PM, but I'll say this here: It might help you to start getting involved with other discussions on the launch pad to get the feel for how to make a trope REGARDLESS of what happens here. Reading other people's drafts could help you figure out where you might have been or still are going wrong in your own draft-making and learn to fix it accordingly.

Aug 14th 2018 at 9:14:17 PM

^^ Okay, this time around, assuming that I correctly understood what you wrote, I think you might be on to something. Trouble is, I'm having a difficult time understanding.

Let Me Get This Straight... I'm gonna be typing my interpretation of what I see as a hypothetical example. DO NOT put what I write below into your draft EVEN IF I correctly interpreted your draft.

Alex, the Frost Man, has a friend, Bob. Bob introduces Alex to Charlie, a stranger. Alex behaves in his usual gruff and aloof manner, and Charlie is left wondering, "Does Alex hate me?"

Bob says, "Nah, that's just how he usually acts. If he hated you, he'd make it really obvious, like punching you in the face or something."

Aug 15th 2018 at 12:29:51 AM

More like this:

Alex is a Frost Man, and Billy is his friend. Billy knows that Alex is cold, but he's also expressive so he kind of forgets that he's cold. That is until Brad, an attacker, hit Alex. Causing Alex to slap him. And with a cold glare he says:

Alex: "Touch me again, and I promise that I'll show you the true meaning of a cold day in hell."

Billy now remembers that Alex is cold, and he will never forget how cold Alex is.

Aug 15th 2018 at 6:45:10 AM

^ it's simply "someone who's sometimes expressive and sometimes cold". And where else does the "cold" apply, besides "threatening a would-be attacker"?

Reminds me of Beware The Nice Ones, tbh.

Aug 15th 2018 at 11:29:49 AM

Beware The Nice Ones is more about a nice character who snaps at other characters. The Frost Man would be more like "he's cold, but is able to express his emotions. But don't think that just because he can, that he can't turn back to being cold to make a point or an example out of someone.

Aug 15th 2018 at 11:30:01 AM

^ Wouldn't it make more sense as "He's cold but still expresses his emotions in his own (cold) way because that's just his personality" since the emotional expression part is still a bit strange, especially as the example doesn't illustrate Alex being cold beyond that he just punched and glared at a dude

Aug 15th 2018 at 12:18:49 PM

Okay, in realizing my idea was a downplayed version of The Stoic, I'm here to post some thoughts on this trope. So I'm going to try and make a list of every concern that has been expressed and if there's no way to fix them all in a way that doesn't just create more problems and manages to win, like, 12 people over to give this draft a hat, I'm sorry to say this might not be fixable.

So here are some common issues people are having with it:

  • Too similar to other tropes: Originally it was The Stoic and Not So Stoic, now it's Sugar And Ice Personality.
  • Examples that seem to be used to justify this trope's existence instead of being natural (You said you had examples in mind before any of this started, but this is the perception everyone has)
  • Some people think this draft is more focused on creating a trope and then finding examples that fit which is backwards to how we usually do things here
  • The ever-shifting focus from one concept to another in an effort to fix the previously mentioned problems, creating a situation where the trope's meaning keeps changing depending on what we're trying to avoid
  • And, one thing that has little to do with the draft itself: People are set against this trope idea after the three previous attempts all failed with no salvagability. This would make it very difficult to try and start fresh with a new take on the trope as their first impression would still be the same and if they think it's not tropeworthy currently they won't think it is with a shiny new draft

Aug 15th 2018 at 12:25:22 PM

Nothing's ever been easy. But I'm willing to fix all this till my last breath

Aug 15th 2018 at 12:34:09 PM

My point is it might not be fixable. All the editing in the world can't make PSOC a trope- IDK if anything we can do here will fix the core problem: This concept has a lot of trouble standing alone with a unique niche. That's what every problem comes down to. We've tried and tried to change things up but each change just takes us toward a different trope.

I'm not saying I'm giving up or that you should give up, but at some point we need some sort of final conclusion on this.

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