Line #7 YMMV/Batwoman2019


1	* AngstWhatAngst: When Tommy Elliot in the guise of Bruce Wayne pops up in the Season 2 premiere, most of the characters express surprise, but not the amount of shock or anger one would expect knowing their family member/close friend, who is also one of the wealthiest people in the world AND was Gotham's protector, vanished off the face of the Earth for three years yet suddenly appearing out of the blue, no worse for wear. Luke asks where he has been for the last three years, but the answer is brushed off and never brought up again before the reveal. It's not even clear if the general public knew he was back.
2	* ArcFatigue:
3	** Alice was the main villain for most of the first season, and Kate's quest to get through to her and restore Beth made up about half of ''that'', with relatively little progress. While some viewers adore Alice as the main or sole draw of the show, others got sick of Kate fighting the same villain nearly every week and apparently not making any headway. It got so bad that Alice was still rampaging around Gotham in Season 2 even with Kate MIA and a new Batwoman around. Granted, they at least gave her different things to do and featured more antagonists who don't answer to her in any way, but it's still noticeable.
4	** Some fans thought the plot of Kate Kane's disappearance in Season 2 took more time than it should. It took eight episodes for the series to finally reveal that Kate survived the plane crash. But after that, Kate had her memory and her face altered by the main villain Black Mask. As a result, another five episodes before one of the main characters finally finds out that Kate was still alive (while all the other characters remain in the dark). A lot of viewers express the disappointment that the focus on Kate took away a lot of time that could have been used to better develop Ryan, but instead she was just constantly compared to Kate.
5	*** Not to mention, anyone in the know about what was going on behind the scenes knew full well that Ruby Rose left the set with the director at the time stating the show was not going to replace Kate Kane with another actress. Making it excruciating to those viewers who watched all the characters trying to find someone they already knew wasn't going to be found and wondering why they didn't just kill her off.
6	* AssPull:
7	** Alice's "Work Release" program in Season 3. For the last two seasons Alice was Gotham's Number 1 Most Wanted for all of the death and destruction she caused, but is given what is pretty much a slap on the wrist and barely any oversight because she somehow has the knowledge of the different Rogue's Gallery items that the police are trying to find. Many called out this was solely done because the writers needed an excuse to keep Alice in the series, now that Kate was written off the show and she was a fan favorite character.
8	** Ryan made Acting CEO of Wayne Enterprise. The fact that Kate was revealed to be Acting CEO as well since this was never brought up in two seasons and the show heavily implied that Wayne Enterprise was a shell of its former self since Bruce disappeared. It also felt out of place because Ryan showed absolutely no skills or knowledge of how to run a massive multinational business empire, as her previous work experience was a bartender. It heavily felt like this was done because the writers wanted a reason for Ryan to be able to meet her mom who was also a Billionaire Business Owner.
9	* SugarWiki/AwesomeMusic:
10	** "[[https://youtu.be/oa5Tw8AS2kg Fair Eyes, Blue Skin]]", from the episode of the same name is a chilling instrumental that conjures up images of deep, dark pits and grinding machines, which fits very well for an episode about the False Face's child-grooming operation.
11	** In "Initiate Self-Destruct", "[[https://youtu.be/gp9YV616FhI Body Prison]]" by Music/{{HEALTH}} and Perturbator plays during the fight between Ryan and a brainwashed Kate, lending the right amount of intensity and brutality to the scene.
12	** In "Meet Your Maker", "[[https://youtu.be/nlEyq0raUGE CRY WOLF]]" by Lux Auri plays as Poison Ivy restores herself by siphoning energy from Mary. The music is ominous enough, but the very audible lyrics drive home just how Mary's craving for love and affection have gotten her in over her head.
13	-->Cry wolf,
14	-->My lovely,
15	-->And someone will be there,
16	-->Eager
17	-->And willing
18	-->To take you into care...
19	* BrokenBase: Between Kate Kane and her replacement by Ryan Wilder. Losing Kate meant losing the family dynamic of the Kanes and the link to the wider Bat family and DC Universe (Ryan only appearing on ''The Flash'' and not the rest of the Arrowverse). Whilst Ryan may have lasted for many more episodes, viewing figures and audience appreciation ratings halved once she took over.
20	* CaptainObviousReveal:
21	** Anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of the Batwoman comics would know that Alice is Beth Kane. Luckily they put the reveal right in the first episode rather than making us wait weeks on end. The fact that they NeverFoundTheBody was presented about a minute before revealing Alice's identity, as if the writers knew this could not exactly become a season-long mystery.
22	** Anyone who even remotely kept up with the show on social media was not surprised that Kate was supposedly never going to be found alive as her actor, Ruby Rose, left the show despite a whole story arc dedicated in finding them, essentially making for a ForegoneConclusion on a characters' death that was dragged out for far too long. Though slightly subverted, since Wallis Day wasn't announced to be taking over the role of Kate Kane until she appeared on the show.
23	* CompleteMonster: [[KillerCop Miguel Robles]], a corrupt member of the [[LawEnforcementInc Crows]], is also the murderer of Lucius Fox. After he accidentally shoots Fox while roughing him up for his journal, Robles attempts to cover his tracks by framing an innocent man and, years later, sending assassins after those who could expose him. When those plans start to unravel, Robles [[LegacyCharacter takes on the mantle]] of the deceased [[MadBomber Detonator]], kidnapping people and encasing them in explosive vests with [[SadisticChoice chances to save themselves]] by pressing a button to set off another bomb elsewhere; these other bombs are placed in buildings that contain information that might incriminate him, and thus Robles doesn't care if he kills dozens or hundreds of innocents to escape his punishment.
24	* ContinuityLockout: For UK Viewers, Batwoman began airing on the digital channel [[Creator/Channel4 E4]] on March 29th, 2020, finally bringing all of the CW series' superhero output to UK viewers. However, the rest of the shows are with Creator/{{Sky}}, except for ''Series/BlackLightning'', which is branded as a Creator/{{Netflix}} original, and the shows being on differing services and channels does inevitably lead to some continuity issues--especially since the CrisisCrossover episode didn't air until ''[[OutOfOrder the end of the series]]'' on August 9th, 2020.
25	* EnsembleDarkHorse:
26	** Luke Fox is a popular MissionControl character who takes the character into new territory given the death of his father.
27	** Despite only being around for a few episodes, the alternate Beth was a well-liked character for her overall personality, and the counter she provided to Alice.
28	** Mary is about as close to universally beloved as any character on this show, and a major complaint of the first season was Kate not bringing her aboard sooner.
29	** Stephanie Brown is only in one episode, but is pretty popular for having her live-action debut be faithful to the comics and for being an impressively clever ViolentlyProtectiveGirlfriend.
30	* EvilIsCool:
31	** Peter Outerbridge's Black Mask has been praised for his chilling and horrifying, yet still quite witty, characterization.
32	** Nick Creegan's take as [[spoiler:The Joker]] has been met with high praise for delivering the classic sociopathy the character is known for, while making the character his own.
33	* {{Fanon}}: It is agreed among the fans and even the detractors that the sole reason Kate Kane was not killed off, despite Ruby Rose having left the set with no desire to return and the director at the time flat-out stating they were not going to recast the character, was because the staff were afraid that their fans would think they were using the BuryYourGays trope and be accused of homophobia.
34	* FanonDiscontinuity: With the series CutShort, many deem the last few minutes of the GrandFinale to be this, preferring the scene of the Bat Family together to be the real final scene.
35	* FanPreferredCouple: Fans tend to ship Kate with Kara Danvers, Julia Pennyworth or Reagan rather than Sophie Moore.
36	* GeniusBonus: Alice’s lover is named Charles ("Chuck" for short) Dodgson, the real name of Lewis Carroll.
37	* HarsherInHindsight:
38	** A major premise of the show is that Batman has been missing for a few years, with multiple characters outright stating he abandoned them. Kate herself has doubts about being Batwoman several times in the first season, and at one point stops patrolling for a week. After the Season 1 finale aired, news broke that Creator/RubyRose would not be returning for Season 2.
39	** "Kane, Kate", in which Circe ingratiates herself with the Bat-Team, which causes Ryan to step down and sends her into a HeroicBSOD, is harder to watch in the wake of a roundtable in which Javicia Leslie talked about how much worse the harassment against her became when the showrunners announced that Kate Kane was returning, and how she felt that her costars were not supporting her during that time.
40	* SugarWiki/HeReallyCanAct: Nick Creegan has done an amazing job as his iteration of [[spoiler:The Joker]], showcasing his chops at delivering the egotistical, psychotic mania befitting [[spoiler:the Clown Prince of Crime himself]]--all without the [[spoiler:Joker's typical makeup]].
41	* HilariousInHindsight:
42	** According to Caroline Dries, the showrunner, the initial team casting for Kate Kane joked during the process that they needed a Creator/RubyRose-type, but figured the actress herself would never sign on since she was a movie star known for appearing in big-budget franchises.
43	** Ruby Rose has a real-life tattoo of the White Rabbit from ''Literature/AliceInWonderland''.
44	* IKnewIt:
45	** The disguised names of the main characters in casting announcements for season 1 included "Sloane," who many assumed was Renee Montoya based on the description and her relative popularity. Some, however, noticed that all the fake names began with the same letter of the actual character's name, and correctly guessed that "Sloane" was Sophie Moore based on the same logic.
46	** Many fans correctly guessed that Kate would be recast in the second half of season two.
47	* IncestYayShipping: There is a good number of fans who ship Kate and Beth due to Ruby Rose and Rachel Skarsten's chemistry and a considerable amount of subtext.
48	* IronWoobie: Jacob Kane is, for the most part, a guy doing his best to be a decent father, husband and lawful protector of Gotham. Meanwhile, one of his biological daughters is a vigilante, the other other is a supervillain who has tried to kill him, his stepdaughter runs an illegal hospital behind his back, and his wife forged evidence to make it seem like Beth was dead and hiding the aforementioned secret hospital from him. This culminates in Alice murdering his wife and framing him for the crime. The fact that the guy has not been hauled off to Arkham in a straight jacket by this point says something about his mental fortitude.
49	* ItsTheSameNowItSucks: One criticism of Ryan is that she gradually began taking on Kate's traits (from being the CEO of Wayne Enterprises to eventually hooking up with Sophie), when a major part of the rationale for creating her instead of recasting Kate was to have a character different from Kate who could still have the motivation to be a superhero.
50	* JustHereForGodzilla: Creator/RachelSkarsten devouring her scenes as the bizarre and crazy villain Alice is a main or even sole draw for some viewers.
51	* {{Misblamed}}: For ''Series/{{Gotham}}'' ending and ''[[Series/SwampThing2019 Swamp Thing]]'' being canceled. The shows don't affect each other because ''Gotham'' is from Fox (and was announced to have been ending ''way'' before Batwoman's announcement), ''Swamp Thing'' is from the DC Universe streaming service, and ''Batwoman'' is from The CW. The latter is especially egregious since Swamp Thing isn't even part of the Batman mythos.
52	* MoralEventHorizon: See [[MoralEventHorizon/{{Arrowverse}} here]].
53	* {{Narm}}:
54	** The infamous ''"I'm a woman"'' song was obviously supposed to come off as empowering, but everyone online mocked it as blatant pandering.
55	** Jacob getting knocked out and/or kidnapped seemingly every other episode, bordering on RunningGag levels, can get old very, very fast. Especially since many of these kidnappings happen at Crows Headquarters, which makes them being the big, bad, scary replacement for the GCPD more of an InformedAttribute.
56	** The introduction of Ryan is her [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2VIEY9-A8&ab_channel=SaturdayNightLive living in a van down by the river]].
57	** The fact that Ryan's van, a completely normal van, was able to outrun the Batmobile.
58	** Part of the reason why the trailers were so negatively received. Many viewers believed Kate's lines to be nothing more than CharacterShilling, particularly her infamous "I'm not about to let a man take credit for a woman's work" line (something even the creators acknowledged by removing it from the pilot).
59	** At the end of the third episode, Sophie is in her car listening to Vesper questioning what name they should give to the new superheroine. While Vesper mentions many options, Sophie says "Batwoman". The scene should be impactful, but the character cites the name in such a sudden and matter-of-fact way that it comes off as rather odd.
60	** The rather extreme lengths the show went through to explain why Kate Kane went from Creator/RubyRose to Creator/WallisDay in Season 2 can be hard to take seriously. Many people roll their eyes at the convoluted plot and [[MemeticMutation chant]] [[Film/IronMan2 "It's me, I'm here, deal with it, let's move on. Drop it."]] as the more obvious route.
61	** The various vocal songs in every episode can elicit this reaction for those who don't care for the songs or that style of music.
62	** It turns out the Desert Rose requires [[spoiler: the blood of women to grow. Cue a ton of mensuration jokes on the internet.]]
63	* NarmCharm:
64	** Creator/RachelSkarsten's performance as Alice is so exaggerated that it had every opportunity to be disastrous. Instead, she makes the villain fun and at the same time portrays her mental instability very well.
65	** The same vocal songs mentioned just above can fall into this for those who actually do listen to this music normally.
66	* OlderThanTheyThink:
67	** Kate herself has gotten this reaction, with a fair number of people not realizing that she originated in the comics over a decade prior, and/or isn't a genderswapped version of Bruce. Likewise, Kate being a lesbian became part of her character years before the series was announced.
68	** The concept of Batman leaving Gotham and Batwoman protecting the city in his absence, which received some criticism, was part of the story of ''[[ComicBook/FiftyTwo 52]]'', where Kate Kane debuted; in a fun coincidence, Earth-N52 is established as a part of the Arrowverse.
69	** Also in an example of RecycledPlot, the 2002 ''Series/{{Birds of Prey\|2002}}'' series had the same premise of Batman's absence and a female relative protecting Gotham in his place (in this case his daughter with Catwoman).
70	** The series isn't actually the first TV series based on a DC property to re-cast its lead actor. The late 80s-early 90s series ''Series/TheAdventuresOfSuperboy'' also replaced its lead actor after the first season (albeit straight away and with the actor playing the same character, rather than introducing a new character as the lead and then bringing back the original character later).
71	** Many people online have mistakenly assumed Luke's hero identity of Batwing is actually Nightwing instead, resulting in accusations of the costume "adding" a helmet "for no reason" or giving the identity to Luke instead of Dick Grayson, even though Batwing '''is''' Luke's superhero identity in the comics.
72	* PortmanteauCoupleName: A lot of fans like to use "Kanvers" for Kate Kane/Kara Danvers, either "Batmoore" or "Kanemoore" for Kate/Sophie Moore, and "Wildmoore" for Sophie/Ryan Wilder.
73	* PreemptiveShipping: After Ryan Wilder was announced as the new lead character in Season 2, fans quickly began shipping her with Sophie Moore, the previous Batwoman's love interest, which led to some frustration when Ryan actually debuted and it turned out that she and Sophie have an antagonistic history with each other. [[spoiler: However, the ship ended up becoming canon in Season 3, when Sophie and Ryan enter a relationship.]]
74	* QuestionableCasting: A minor example; no one ''ever'' expected Creator/RachelMaddow to act (even if merely as a radio host) in a superhero TV show, but it's mostly because she's a news personality/talking head first and foremost.
75	* RootingForTheEmpire: Alice has received this reaction from some for being a wonderful, scene-stealing LargeHam. Even many detractors of the show had to admit she was the only reason they didn't think the show was completely terrible because she was so enjoyable to watch.
76	* SugarWiki/SheReallyCanAct:
77	** Creator/RubyRose’s previous acting roles have received criticism for being flat, samey, or even unlikable, but her performance as Kate shows far more range. She’s able to be the usual no-nonsense ActionGirl as Batwoman, but is also quite personable with her love interests, has some scenes where she borders on tears (whether from sadness or anger), ''actually'' cries a time or two, and even manages some hilarious examples of physical comedy and FacialDialogue, including through her cowl.
78	** DC fans who know Creator/RachelSkarsten as TheScrappy Dinah of ''Series/BirdsOfPrey2002'' will be positively surprised to see the great work that the actress does as the tragic and LargeHam villain Alice.
79	** While the character's role in the story is still a hotly debated topic, most agree that Creator/JaviciaLeslie holds her own as Ryan Wilder.
80	** Similarly, while how she's been used and what her future holds remain hotly debated, many fans agree that Creator/WallisDay was a terrific choice to replace Ruby Rose as Kate and does excellent work as both the Kate fans knows and the one who's been brainwashed to believe she's Circe Sionis.
81	* SpecialEffectFailure:
82	** The explosions in Episode 4 look like they're from a [=PS2=] game.
83	** Every time somebody fires a gun at the Batsuit, both the bullets and impact sparks are very clearly CGI and seem to disappear as soon as they hit the suit.
84	* {{Squick}}: Anything having to do with Mouse's false faces.
85	* StrangledByTheRedString: Ocean and Alice's relationship comes over as absurdly rushed, with Ocean's lack of development, the rather shallow AmnesiacLover set-up being undermined by the actors' utter lack of chemistry and the constant shilling from other characters, even those who, like Mary, were entirely unsympathetic to Alice before they learnt of the relationship, just making the situation worse.
86	* StrawmanHasAPoint: Jacob gets this, twice.
87	** In episode six, Jacob says that Batwoman as a masked vigilante is unaccountable to anyone but herself unlike any licensed crimefighter. While the episode plays Jacob's hatred of those who were the Bat symbol as IrrationalHatred for Batman not saving his wife and daughter, he isn't wrong about Batwoman being a vigilante who is unaccountable to the law and one whose identity isn't public at that.
88	** When he finds out about Mary's free clinic in season 2 he tells her to shut it down, pointing out that she isn't a licenced physician and that Catherine had started her unethical human testing by doing the same thing. Her reply is she isn't experimenting on them, which he counters by pointing out that since isn't a real doctor, none of her treatments are safe or legal either so she effectively ''is''.
89	* TaintedByThePreview:
90	** The first official trailer for the series was completely flamed on Website/YouTube across several channels that uploaded it, with more than four times as many dislikes than likes on the CW's version and many negative comments.
91	** A lot of negativity was heaped on the "Times Are Changing" TV spot, which has ten times as many dislikes than likes, along with similarly critical comments.
92	** There was also a lot of bile spewed at the "Night Ride" spot even though it was just Kate getting on her motorcycle with stylized imagery, with no lines or acting to specifically criticize.[[note]]The much-maligned "I'm a woman" song played during it, but with no lyrics.[[/note]]
93	** The announcement at [=ComicCon=] stating that Batman will not initially make an appearance soured a lot of fans, even though part of the whole premise is that he's gone missing.
94	** When it was revealed that Kate Kane would be replaced by a new character, fans and detractors of the series alike were critical of the idea on the argument that it would throw the progress of the series away. It was pointed out that the series are strongly tied to Kate as a superhero and as a civilian, not to mention that being relatively new to the Arrowverse would likely mean that her plotlines would be wasted. A campaign stating that "Kate Kane is Batwoman" became very vocal.
95	** The main trailer for Season 2 was again hit by over four times as many dislikes as likes on the CW's upload, despite having nothing in it that could be construed as objectionable as in the Season 1 trailer. Unlike the previous one, however, other channels' uploads were spared the rating-bomb.
96	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
97	** The good version of Beth Kane who came from another Earth. Some fans think that even if the writers' intention from the beginning was for her story to end in tragedy, they could have made it last well beyond just ''three'' episodes. In particular, it is disappointing that Jacob never had a chance to meet this version of Beth and participate in the same conflict as Kate over which of the two versions of Beth they should save.
98	** Kate Kane leaves Gotham almost immediately after being saved for good. While this was done to well and truly make Ryan the focus, it also means Day doesn't really get to do anything as Kate, instead spending most of her time as Circe despite being almost unanimously seen as a terrific casting choice.
99	** Several fans and even several detractors state that Ryan is heavily underused in Season 2. Due to the fact that they did not kill off Kate outright, they spent a majority of season too focused on trying to find Kate. In doing so, Ryan was essentially just compared to Kate in every way. This does however get remedied in Season 3.
100	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot:
101	** The idea of Tommy posing as Bruce Wayne was a cliffhanger that had fans wondering how much trouble he could get into as Bruce. Instead, it takes only ''one'' episode for the team to figure out the ruse and send Tommy back to Arkham.
102	** Kate is rushed out of the door in the Season 2 finale instead of sticking around to help Ryan, either as a second Batwoman ([[WesternAnimation/BatmanMysteryOfTheBatwoman which has happened before]]), or taking up a new mantle, either an unused one from the comics or something brand new.
103	* UnexpectedCharacter:
104	** Of all of the villains of the Bat Family's, few were predicting that Tommy Elliot/Hush would be announced as a character, let alone one in the first season of the show.
105	** That's nothing compared to using Executioner as a villain; he appeared in all of ''one'' comic in the early 50's and hasn't been used since, save for ''Series/{{Gotham}}'' having the character Nathaniel Barnes use the same name for a time, if you can even consider that an adaptation to begin with.
106	** Few would have guessed that Amygdala, a very minor Batman foe, would have put in an appearance.
107	** While he really isn't a big player in the episode he appears in, Horten Spence is an ''outstandingly'' minor character in Batman lore, being nothing more than a brief love interest for Vicki Vale who appeared in only two comics ever. The fact they made such a deep cut for a (seemingly) one-off reporter character is honestly kind of impressive.
108	** Absolutely nobody was expecting Stephanie Brown to show up in the series in her first appearance in live action, nor her infamous dad, the Cluemaster.
109	* UnintentionallySympathetic: Jacob Kane is lambasted by all three of his daughters, with Alice constantly stating how he abandoned her as one of the main reasons she is the crazy killer she is. The show seems to completely ignore that he was on a full crusade to find her and only stopped when his future second wife falsified DNA evidence to convince him that she was dead. Then, when he tries to build a relationship with Mary after losing Kate as well, even offering to use his own money to make her clinic legit instead of arresting her, she just chews him out. Despite the show trying to make him out to be a terrible father, he is presented more as TheWoobie.
110	* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic:
111	** Kate can be unintentionally unsympathetic at times, especially with regards to her repeatedly letting Alice go, resulting in the deaths of many people (including her stepmother Catherine), and the attempted murder of her father Jacob, whom Alice also later framed for Catherine's murder. What happened to Beth is unfortunate, but Alice repeatedly tries to drive home that Beth is gone and isn't coming back.
112	** The show tries to make Angelique out to be ForcedIntoEvil for making Snakebite for Black Mask. However it is made clear by her actions that she is an unrepentant drug maker/dealer who's only made to be "sympathetic" because she was Ryan's ex-girlfriend who Ryan wants to get back with. Said ex-girlfriend whose drugs Ryan was caught with and went to jail over, something which Angelique hardly shows any regret for.
113	** They try to make Alice more sympathetic by claiming that her whole "Alice" mentality was created by a hypnotist. But despite knowing this, she will still kill innocent people just because she is bored. Season 3 makes it worse, as Alice malingers and wheedles her way out of Arkham and into a truly enviable work-release program wherein she gets to live in Sophie's apartment and have Mary as her personal physician in exchange for offering the Bat-Team intel on Batman's old rogues, and she chooses to take advantage of the situation to manipulate Mary into betraying her friends and becoming the new Poison Ivy, only turning around and helping Batwoman and Batwing because her machinations ultimately resulted in the return of the ''real'' Poison Ivy and Alice realized that she'd been outgambited. That being said, the writers seem to realize this to an extent, as Alice's hallucinations of her deceased lovers and friends have mocked her for wanting to redeem herself when she's still a heartless killer--which comes ''after'' she [[spoiler:hands over the Batcave's location to Marquis Jet just so she can have the joy buzzer that could supposedly cure her insanity]].
114	* WTHCostumingDepartment:
115	** Some have mentioned that at least one of Batwoman's logos looks a lot like a pair of panties.
116	** Many have commented the homeless woman Batwoman comes across in the "Times are Changing" commercial seems to be very well dressed to be homeless.
117	** Several critics have noted that the Batsuit Kate wears in the pilot makes her head look very large compared to the rest of her body.
118	** Some have argued that the new suit set to be worn by Javicia Leslie doesn't provide an adequate level of disguise.
119	** When Luke's Batwing costume was first shown off, some people thought the design of the faceplate made it resemble an [[Franchise/TheTransformers Optimus Prime]] cosplay.
120	* WinBackTheCrowd: Though the decision to replace Kate rather than recast her remains contentious, the official reveal of Javicia Leslie's Batwoman suit was met with largely positive reactions, both due to the design itself and the news that the suit's revisions would be in-story changes made (at least in part) by Ryan Wilder.

Context YMMV / Batwoman2019