Line #141 WMG/Warhammer


1	[[WMG:Chaos has already won]]
2	Think about it. They're gods of chaos, and what place is more chaotic than the ''Warhammer'' world? There's enough battle to sate Khorne, scheming for Tzeentch, hubris for Slaanesh and Despair for Nurgle as it is, and it's basically a giant hell already. All the fighting is just the four chaos gods revelling in their own chaos-ness and playing off the mortals against each other for kicks. They don't need any of the incursions or thier Everchosen to succeed, which is why they never do: they won the moment the gates collapsed.
3	* The only reason they haven't won yet is because they'd like the Eternal War to stay eternal.
4	* This is all but completely canon, you know.
5	** Wanting the "eternal war to stay eternal for kicks" is what the Chaos Gods want in ''40K''. Here, they don't bother that much in the Old World primarily due to the whole Great Game thing and because they already have daemon hordes conquering ''other'' worlds.
6	*** ''40K'' doesn't have the Great Game too?
7	** As of the End Times, it IS canon.
8
9	[[WMG:The entire ''Warhammer'' world was subconsciously created by the Emperor.]]
10	After the Literature/HorusHeresy and the Emperor's internment on the Throne, his reality-warping powers came into play and he created a world of symbolism with which he could consider his problems in physical form. Some of the ties are obvious -- Orcs are Orks, the High/Dark Elves Eldar, Bretonians are Space Marines, but others are more representative of the universe and the distant past- Ogres represent entropy, Skaven represent the growing power of the Warp, and Lizardmen are the Old Ones. In this reality, the Emperor took the form of Karl Franz, and rules over this imaginary world while he ponders the nature of the Imperium.
11	* ''Fantasy Battle'' predates ''40K''.
12
13	[[WMG:The Horned Rat is a Chaos god, worshiped exclusively by Skaven.]]
14	The Horned Rat certainly exists, and his behaviour matches up quite closely with the other Chaos gods. I mean, making a tear in reality with his claw and eating his worshippers alive, we're not talking Buddha here. We even have a description of a human being acting as his agent, before any Skaven appeared. Therefore, the Horned Rat is a Chaos god who has created his own worshipers out of rats by magic, and no longer bothers to convert other races. He even has his own Mark of Chaos, a blessing that bounces attacks off his favoured characters and onto the wretched masses.
15	* This isn't fanon -- the background is pretty clear that he's a Chaos God unique to the Skaven.
16	* And that it has a least one form of daemon devotees.
17	* It is also possible that the Horned Rat is a manifestation of Nurgle in the same way that Khaine is quite probably Khorne. Are the other two Chaos Gods running double lives in the world somewhere?
18	** Alternatively, the Horned Rat is Tzeentch: keeping his chosen alive to further his machinations definitely fits, and the clan politics that the Skaven perpetuate are definitely Tzeentchian in nature. Plus, Skaven have been known to try and topple societies from the inside as well as from the outside, again a classic Tzeentchian policy.
19	*** The Horned Rat is ''neither'' Nurgle nor Tzeench, but is sort of halfway in between. This makes it about the opposite to the murder-obsessed-yet-with-oddly-sexy-minions Khaine (ie, Khorne/Slaanesh).
20	** What if the Horned Rat is ''both'' Tzeentch and Nurgle? Confused? Let me explain: the "mainstream" religion of the Horned Rat pretty much depicts him as a Tzeentch-style patron of scheming, backstabbing, treachery and general {{Magnificent Bastard}}ry. The Skaven of Clan Pestilens, however, worship him as a patron of pestilence and plagues... something that only happened when they emigrated to Lustria centuries ago and promptly began to die of the hideous diseases and parasites endemic to that continent. In their fevered dreams, however, they came to worship a "new aspect" of the Horned Rat and by doing so were spared from their torturous deaths. Sound at all like the "conversion" of the Death Guard into Plague Marines? When they finally got kicked out of Lustria, the "orthodox" Skaven decried Clan Pestilens as heretics, and if they hadn't been so powerful (and had their bio-weapons to back them up), the clan would have been obliterated. Even now, they're still more or less outcast from mainstream Skaven society due to their "cult" status.
21	*** The way they sometimes wipe out Skaven settlements and armies by accident doesn't help.
22	*** Better yet: the Horned Rat is simply an amalgam of ''all'' the Chaos gods...a different form of Chaos Undivided, if you will.
23	*** There are chaos gods outside the Big Four in ''Fantasy'' you know. He's just another one of them.
24	** Alternatively, the Horned Rat isn't a Chaos God but a particularly powerful Greater Daemon. This would explain why he has an unspecific powerbase and a unique personality, and although Gods are far too powerful to manifest on the Material Plane the Vermin Lord can do it because it's not quite on the same world-shattering Tier. Therefore the Council of Thirteen is so named for literal reasons rather than symbolic -- the Horned Rat actually sits on the council occasionally, when the Vermin Lord is manifest for long enough.
25	*** To add some credence to this theory -- back in the old ''Realms of Chaos'' [[{{Splat}} sourcebooks]] (can't remember if it was ''Slaves to Darkness'' or ''Lost and the Damned'') there were rules for creating your own lesser Chaos god/Greater Daemon. The worked example ended up remarkably similar to the descriptions of the Horned Rat in both aspects (what he was "god" of), and in what his avatars looked like when manifest (almost identical to Vermin Lords). Hell, I'm pretty sure even his name (Neiglitz, IIRC) has been used in some material to refer to the Horned Rat. Considering the venerable ''Realms of Chaos'' books pre-date the establishment of the skaven race and culture, it's possible that the Horned Rat was established directly from that worked example.
26	*** Of course, the same source also treated the [[TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 God-Emperor of Mankind]] explicitly as the Fifth of the Big Four Chaos Gods. The fluff has moved on vastly since then.
27
28	[[WMG:Sigmar was a Primarch.]]
29	It was said that Sigmar came into the world through a twin-tailed comet. Several of the Space Marine Primarchs of ''TabletopGame/{Warhammer40000'' also fell to their respective worlds from the sky when they were separated, and like Sigmar came to legendary stature.
30	* No, the comet simply heralded Sigmar's birth, as it has done for many great events. The destruction of Mordhiem and the beginning of the Storm of Chaos, for example. Sigmar had a mother and a father like everyone else. See the novel ''Heldenhammer'' for more details.
31	* Literally correct. Sigmar ''was'' once one of the un-accounted-for primarchs. This has since been [[RetCon ret-conned]] out of existence (several editions ago now. ''Warhammer'' and ''Warhammer 40,000'' no longer share a fictional universe).
32	** That's what they say. Anyone who was around for the aftermath of Albion may disagree...
33	*** I call Mutiverse on that! They may not be in the same universe, but they could be in the same multiverse linked by the Warp. In the ''40K'' comic ''Bloodquest'', the Blood Angels fight beastmen in on a demon world.
34	*** Just like orcs, goblins, men, elves, daemons, dwarfs, ogres, halflings, zoats, slann and old ones; beastmen appear in both ''Warhammer'' and ''Warhammer 40,000'' (and most of them are in Blood Bowl too, which is seperate again from the other two) but do not necessarily coexist.
35	*** Chaos mutations do all kinds of crazy shit.
36	* ''Sigma''r, clearly, was the lost triplet to Alpharius and Omegon.
37
38	[[WMG: The Grail Knights are Astartes]]
39	We know it's not unheard of for a Space Marine chapter to rule their planet indirectly, becoming myths to their recruiting stock (as the Space Wolves do). And becoming superhuman through drinking from a grail sounds an awful lot like what the Blood Angels Aspirants go through.
40
41	[[WMG: Sigmar is Sotek, the bloody snake-god of the Lizardmen.]]
42	As the wargame's army book for Lizardmen tells us, said deity's coming was heralded by a twin-tailed comet. Yeah, the same year when Sigmar was born. Surely there are some inconsistencies, but man, I can't get over this idea.
43	* They may be connected without being the same figure. The twin-tailed comet has been connected with several other events in the Old World, including the destruction of Mordheim (where the comet actually hit the city, but was still seen in later events) and heralding the rise of heroes who fought against chaos incursions. In the Empire these are seen as acts by the god Sigmar, but they may be simply wrong. This may represent some remaining influence of the Old Ones, or may be caused by something totally unknown in the setting. The birth of Sigmar and the rising of Sotek were during the same appearance, though.
44	* The manifestation of Sotek was simultaneous with the ''birth'' of Sigmar. If Sigmar is Sotek, that would imply he spent his early life as an illusion of a baby while beating the shit out of Skaven.
45	** Alternately... Sotek is Sigmar's father.
46	*** [[LukeIAmYourFather No, Sigmar... I am your father!]]
47
48	[[WMG:''Warhammer'' is set on a world within the Eye of Terror.]]
49	It would explain all the chaos and mutation rife in the world, and in earlier incarnations of the game, you could use ''40K'' weapons and items -- possibly left by Chaos Marines.
50	* If I recall, this was proven... in older editions. But was cut as it kinda ruins the whole 'dramatic battles for the fate of the world!' if it's just taking place on a planet basically sitting there to be used for fun by the fickle fates of Chaos.
51	* The Great Maw is actually of Tyranid origin and has connected the Ogres to the Hive Mind in such a way that they want to consume the world to make way for their unknown overseers.
52	* I swear there is something that blatantly states ''Warhammer'' takes place on a Feudal World but I cannot remember where it is.
53	* The ''Liber Chaotica'' (set in the ''Warhammer'' world) describes and shows a demon weapon which is very obviously a chainsword and there's lots other ''40k'' stuff referenced.
54	** Those sections were written before the split between ''Fantasy'' and ''40K'' were finalized.
55
56	[[WMG: The ''Warhammer'' world is a parallel universe to both Earth and the Discworld]]
57	The Earth connection is pretty much confirmed by the presence of Genevieve Dieudonne on two Earths (the "Anno Dracula" universe and the "Diogenes Club" universe) [not to mention the shape of the continents]. For the Disc connection see the ''GURPS/WFRP'' adventure ''Meals on Wheels'', which portrays the same events happening in both worlds. The adventure equates Altdorf to Ankh-Morpork, with Filthy Harald Kleindeinst paralleling Commander Vimes and Leonardo da Miragliano paralleling Leonard of Quirm. (Yes, they're both based on Earth figures originally, but surely that only proves the ''Warhammer'' world follows the Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality?)
58	* Filthy Harold is a direct expy of Film/DirtyHarry, with the exact same character traits and back story. Plus the name, of course.
59	** And so, at least in part, is Sam Vimes. "This is Lord Mountjoy Quickfang Winterforth IV, the hottest dragon in the city. It could burn your head clean off. Do you feel lucky?"
60	** Hell, the Night Watch's motto is "Fabricati Diem, Pvnc".
61	** I'm not sure Genevieve is canon any more. Vampires are a lot less tolerated and a LOT meaner in modern editions.
62	*** IIRC, she still is to some extent; I think it's mentionned or implied in the RPG sourcebook on vampires that she's of the Lahmia bloodline, and that as a FriendlyNeighborhoodVampire (probably the only one in the entire setting), the other vamps use her as an UnwittingPawn to garner [[VillainWithGoodPublicity good publicity]]. It's all very cynical, appropriately enough for ''Warhammer''.
63	* Additional complication; as per ''[[TabletopGame/DiscworldRolePlayingGame GURPS Discworld]]'' and ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}} TabletopGame/InfiniteWorlds'', the Disc is part of an entirely different game company's multiverse...
64
65	[[WMG: There is a major power opposed to Chaos that has not yet been revealed]]
66	Sotek and Sigmar came to be at the same time. Both came to be saviors of the races that now worship them as their prime gods when those races were at the cusp of extinction (the Lizardmen were being overrun by the Skaven, humans would never have formed lasting nations if Sigmar had not united them and led them against a huge Waaagh!). It is these races that have been largely responsible for beating Chaos back for the last 2500 years, as the Elves and Dwarves decline.
67
68	A few possibilities:
69	A) Tzeench planned it for some unknown reason, no evidence except for who Tzeench is.
70	B) The Old Ones still have some presence or influence on events, or this is some safeguard in place in case they fall. The coming of Sotrek at least was predicted in the plates they left behind.
71	C) A minor Chaos god, possibly of stubbornness or something similar.
72	D) A new kind of god. In addition to the Chaos gods and the two already discussed, the setting already has the Elvish gods that they created themselves, the non-Sigmar Human gods, the other Lizardmen gods/ Old Ones, and the Dwarf ancestor gods. Sigmar's godhood is unique, but he answers prayers. There may be a new kind of god that is really answering them, and is sending Sigmar back again and again as it's champion.
73
74	* You missed one: the powers of Law. Some editions of ''WFRP'' mention gods of law (although this troper is going on something seen in a bookshop five years ago, since he didn't have the money to buy the main rulebook; help from any ''WFRP'' players would be appreciated). One of the ''Konrad'' novels features a prophet who used to be a freakin' ''Daemon'' but somehow managed to stop. The Powers of Law could have been [[TheManBehindTheMan The Beings Behind The Old Ones]].
75	** ''Magazine/WhiteDwarf'' once released an article detailing conversions for an Army of Law using the Chaos models and army list. They're at least semi-canon.
76	*** They do exist, but are not as well known as Chaos. They and their followers are regarded with distrust by the Empire, but this being ''Warhammer'', one, they deserve that reputation, and two, not making worship of them punishable by death is very benevolent by their standards. They are [[HolyHandGrenade Allum]][[LightIsNotGood inas]], a EldritchAbomination that rules over light, [[SealedGoodInACan Arianka]], a goddess locked in a crystal tomb by the Gods of Chaos, and [[PayEvilUntoEvil Solkan the Avenger]], [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin who does exactly what his name suggests]]. The Daemon Prophet can possibly be a follower of them (though I didn't read that book), since the Gods of Law can be described as daemons of the patterns within randomness. All gotten from [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gods_of_Law here]]. Sadly, the only one that is remembered is Solkan, who is occasionally mentioned in the novels.
77	** Not to split hairs, but Sigmar is only worshiped within the Empire, and even then he is subordinate to Ulric and Taal in the north.
78
79	[[WMG: The Dark Elf god Khaine is Khorne]]
80	Four main bits of evidence: they sound the same, they're both patrons of killing, they both favour their worshippers being bloody to the elbows, and the Witch Elves (Khaine fanatics) have as their banner icon a very slightly elfish version of ''the mark of Khorne''.
81	* See above, Khaine is likely a mix of Khorne and Slaanesh.
82	** I like to think of Khaine being the god of sadism, and Khorne being mindless rage and murder. Big difference.
83	*** Personally, I've always considered Ulric to be an aspect of Khorne. Primarily due to the facts that both of them are associated with wolves, berserker rage and martial honour.
84	*** Well, it was suggested especially in the 90's/early 00's that '''ALL''' gods are part of the Big 4 up to level. As Gavin Thorpe (one of most prominent Games Workshop desingers) wrote: ''"Think of a big circle- this is Chaos Undivided- ALL of chaos. Within this circle are 4 smaller circles that overlap one another and fill the internal space- these are the 4 major chaos gods.''" "''Each of the minor gods is a mix of the big 4, these appear as yet again smaller circles along the overlaps between the big 4. Thus you may have a god with aspects of several of the 4 encompassing emotions/thoughts that are the big 4.''".\
85	Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of Norscans) version of Ulric -- Olric/Ursash, and this view spread to other Northmen -- Kurgan and Hung.\
86	In the universe of ''Warhammer 40,000'' on the other hand, Khorne probably absorbed, and was inflenced by [[Myth/NorseMythology Odin]], on who Games Workshop modeled both Khorne and Ulric.
87	*** Seeing how Ulric/Olric is one of the oldest human gods, it's also possible the worship of Ulric, and the belief in him, also in part shaped who and what Khorne is.
88	*** Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, as seen in fact [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg Witch Elves early on actually wore Khorne's holy symbol on them]], but latter materials somewhat contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'', even through ''Warhammer 40,000'' was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of ''Warhammer Fantasy'' and ''40,000'' are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes the End Times]].\
89	To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and ''[[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy]]'' [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2 depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter]] [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daemons_of_Chaos_Codex.jpg Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from ''Warhammer Fantasy Battle'' the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]].\
90	The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''Magazine/WhiteDwarf'' magazine issue 127:\
91	''When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne -- being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.''\
92	This bit outright states Kaine is part of Khorne, although also a part of Slaanesh. But Kaine being part of Slaanesh, might be explained by the fact the Slaanesh, at least at that moment, was the Warp representation of the Eldar species, which probably allowed him/her/it absorb most of Eldar Gods with ease. Kaine, even if he is the part of Khorne generated by emotions and worship of Eldar and Elves, in this scenario, would be also part of Slaanesh, due to Slaanesh being a corrupt representation of the whole Eldar and Elven kind. One could also say that Elves and Eldar, being some of the oldest thinking and feeling species(and with Eldar, longest lasting ones, as the Eldar civilisation existed for MILLIONS of years), shaped strongly Khorne with Khaine, their vision of War/The God of War. So the short answer could be that the situation is similar to that between Mr. Wednesday and [[spoiler: the European original Odin]] from American Gods. Wednesday was [[spoiler: Odin]], but [[spoiler: Odin]] '''wasn't''' Wednsday, as Wendsday did represented just a part, not the totality of him. Or like the it was rather nicelly describbed in FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk fanfic about the realtionship of Khaine to Khorne: ''He was a thing of Khorne. He was both the ancestor and the descendant of the King of Skulls''.
93	*** to specify, [[http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&p=52730&hilit=khaine+khorne#p52730 here is a longer explanation]] on how [=LordLucan=], the author of ''FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk'' and ''FanFic/TheShapeOfTheNightmareToCome'', sees the relationship between Khorne and Khaine, at least in context of the ''Warhammer 40,000'' universe:
94	*** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in ''40K'' itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, ''Xenology'' and ''Liber Chaotica'', and embellished with my own ideas.]\
95	\
96	(EDIT: This simple post has grown into a whole huge flashback section. Blimey. Didn't expect to be writing a history of the eldar empire...)\
97	\
98	During the war in heaven, the old ones created the young races to help them fight the Necrons and the C'tan. However, to begn with, the young races were not sufficiently advanced enough technologically to help the Old Ones militarily. However, the old ones could make use of their creations' vast psychic potentials.\
99	\
100	They did this by manipulating the mythologies of their psychic children. The Old Ones had these races create vastly powerful warp entities from the very stuff of the warp itself, to use as weapons in the war in heaven (think of these warp entities as being many time smore powerful than a daemon prince, but completely unaligned to any chaos power, as chaos hadn't risen from the deep warp yet at that point in history). But over the millions of years of the war in heaven, these warp entities began to be worshipped by the growing alien civilisations, which not only empowered the warp entities but also gave them identities. They began to look just like the gods of the young races' mythologies.\
101	\
102	These warp entities could only be conjured into battle by certain powerful psyker heroes from the young races. Eldanesh was one of these super-psykers (likely having psychic powers comparable to the pre-golden throne emperor).\
103	\
104	Khaine was the second strongest warp entity, and was initially a valiant warrior god, who led the young races into battle against the Yngir and the mirror devils. But during a climatic battle with Aza'gorod the Nightbringer, he burst the necrodemris of the C'tan, and the necrodermis bonded with the warp entity. This anchored a portion of Khaine's power in realspace, but also started to twist the warp entity in unforeseen ways.\
105	\
106	At the climax of the war in heaven, the old one civilisation seems to collapse, as tides of enslavers and various other warp predators and proto-daemons* surged fromt he warp to knacker up everything. The eldar and the young races managed to protect themselves, and weather the nightmarish storm. They were the most technologically advanced of the surviving young races, and decided to enact a little payback on the necorns, who were weakened frm their own little civil war between C'tan and necron. But the necrons seemed to give up and retreat to their hidden tomb worlds.\
107	\
108	The eldar then declared themselves the heirs of the old one empire, and conquered the other young races. Khaine was at the forefront of these wars too, but the warp was making him more and more unstable; he was becomign sometihng of a mad berserker. This was because the infant god Khorne was rising fromt he deep warp, drawn by the bloodshed and carnage of the wars in heaven. The Khaine in the warp was becoming Khorne, while the living-metal clad Khaine was being driven mad by its influence. he eventually turned on the eldar, and murdered the Eldar Emperor Eldanesh. This new war created a war between eldar, as the xenarch (the eldar allied to Khaine) fought the Asur (Asuryan's adherents, the Imperial Eldar). But eventually, Khaine was brought under control*, and the emprie was reunited. The rest of the gods no longer manifested in reality (the eldar myths said Asuryan decreed it, but it is more likely the new Eldar Emperor made it illegal to summon the gods, who were essentially [=WMDs=]. Either that, or all the old 'god-caller' eldar, like Ulthanesh and Eldanesh were gone, so the eldar simply lost the ability to summon them).\
109	\
110	Khorne and Nurgle and tzeentch took they final forms in the medieva period, and Khaine only survived khorne's rise due to being anchored to reality by the living metal\
111	\
112	Khaine was kept under control y the eldar empire, and for a million years they prospered. Then the fall happened. The eldar gods and msot of the eldar race were devoured/absorbed by She who thirsts, with only three exceptions. Isha did not bond with slannesh, as nurgle managed to absorb her first. Cegorach, who seeme dto come from nowhere, fled to/bonded the webway with his harlequins. Khaine was fought over by slannesh and khorne, who both tried to absorb him. This caused Khaine to be shattered. His warp self became par tof khorne, and his realspace self was shattered into many avatars, which the craftworlders took away to store.\
113	\
114	Fastforwards to 60K, and the Incubi steal the various avatars, and melt them down in a planetary mantle, as a war goes on above, fuelling his being with soul energies, and bonding the avatar fragments together like some sor tof psychic cement. When he finally rises, Khaela Mensha Khaine is risen again, to finish the war he started millions of years ago. The galaxy must be conquered, the other gods defeated, and the eldar must be exterminated and the other young races must be brought to heel.\
115	\
116	\
117	* I won't go into any more detail on this point, but consider that the aspect temples were founded by the Phoenix Lords; warriors who combined the aspects of Asuryan, with the aspects of Khaine. We can see this as a kind of 'truce' between the two factions of the eldar. The Phoenix Lords brought the xenarch's rampaging bloodlust under control, just as Asuryan subdued Khaine.)''\
118	\
119	\
120	Of course, even going by this theory in ''Warhammer Fantasy'', this realtionship would be a bit different, due to some differences in background, like the (aparent?) the lack of C'tan.
121
122	** To be clear, [=LordLucan=]'s writtings have strong evidence in canon, specifically ''Liber Chaotica''.\
123	''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in ''Warhamer Fantasy'', but also connects to ''Warhammer 40,000'', with information on Eldar(called the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\
124	''Such was the event that was Slaanesh's birth, the metal body that had contained Khorne's essence since he had slain Kaelis Ra shattered into a thousand pieces that scattered across the dimensions, but though his soul had been freed from it's silver prison, Khorne had not the strength to make a counter blow....''\
125
126	** Another interesting thing is that Khaine was stated to have absorbed the Nightbringer's "aspect of the Reaper", resulting in darkening of his nature, and gaining a [[TheGrimReaper grim reaper]] aspect. Khorne had in old canon an increadibly powerfull unique Greater Daemon -- [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:MardaggArtwork.jpg Mardagg]], who also spots a grim reaper form, and is even called the "Death Elemental". So it's another very curious connection between Khorne and Khaine...
127
128	[[WMG: Male Bretonnian children taken by the Wood Elves become Green Knights.]]
129	Wood Elf magic is responsible for the Blessing of the Lady; Wood Elves steal children, and train the girls to become Damsels (the most powerful one is even called the [[TheFairFolk Fey]] Enchantress) but no-one knows what happens to the males. Furthermore, no-one knows where the Green Knight comes from, he just shows up [[GeniusLoci to defend places sacred to the Lady]] -- so maybe "he" is really a [[TheChosenMany Green Knight Corps]] of Wood Elf {{Tyke Bomb}}s. They're dressed as Bretonnian knights because the Elves want the xenophobic Brets to revere them as a mythical chivalric figure -- the tendency of knights to identify each other by heraldry and the Green Knight's [[TheFaceless refusal to remove his helmet]] combine to create the legend of an omnipresent unkillable being.\
130	* So to conclude, the Green Knight is actually TheChosenMany [[TheFaceless Faceless]] [[TheFairFolk Fair Folk]] GeniusLoci KnightErrant {{Tyke Bomb}}s with LegacyImmortality. [[JustForFun/TropeOverdosed Enough tropes for ya?]]
131	* A few points: First of all, the Wood Elves ''might'' be responsible for the Blessing of the Lady. Or she might actually be a goddess. Or she might a manifestation of the land of Bretonnia similar to the Forest Spirits of Athel Loren, but unconnected to them. Second, the children trained to become Damsels are not kidnapped by Wood Elves. They are visited by the Fay Enchantress, who takes them away with her to be trained (the parents are aware and consider this a great honor).
132	** Incorrect; while the idea that the Wood Elves are behind the Lady is just a theory, it's a canon fact, and known ''InUniverse'', that it's the Wood Elves who kidnap all children who develop magical powers, with the girls later showing up as Damsels of the Lady and the boys never appearing again.
133
134	[[WMG: There is a grand total of one ''40K'' immigrant in ''WFB'', and that is Grombrindal]]
135	The latest model has him in a ''spacesuit''. He's obviously the last of the Squats...sorry, I mean the squa
136
137	[[WMG: Warpstone is a kind of Chaos-infused hard cheese]]
138	The moon is made of it and rats like to eat it. [=QED=].
139	Combined with [[WebAnimation/ZeroPunctuation Branston Pickle]] between two slices of [[Literature/{{Discworld}} Dwarf Battle Bread]], it makes a sandwich capable of bringing about Ragnarok.
140	* Probably not, since Literature/{{Discworld}} dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto VideoGame/NoMoreHeroes", right?
141
142	[[WMG: Sotek is Khorne]]
143	With the help of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, Khorne has managed to get the unwitting Lizardmen under his control, and with every sacrifice they make he gets stronger. It doesn't help that both of the gods demand blood and sacrifice, so the Lizardmen have had trouble telling them apart.
144	* Cool, but unlikely, the Slann are pretty good at telling Chaos from a mile away... well, usually.
145
146	[[WMG: The Wood Elves are not responsible for the Blessing of the Lady]]
147	A lowly Bretonnian Knight Errant -- a completely normal human man with a little military training -- can get potent magical protection simply by praying, yet even the oldest and most skilled Wood Elves can't give themselves such protection without magical items. Whoever is protecting the Bretonnians seems to be vastly more powerful than the Asrai themselves.
148	* That assumes the prayer itself is what invokes the protection, rather than just activating an existing spell.
149	* The idea that "the Wood Elves are behind the Lady of the Lake" is just one of ''many'' theories about the Lady raised in the source material. People [[{{Fanon}} treating a single theory as holy writ]] is a major pet peeve of this troper.
150	** Well... let's look through the facts as given in Knights of the Grail and the rest of WHFRP: 1) The fey of Athel Loren are very definitely Wood Elves, as is the Fey Enchantress. 2) The Damsels of the Lady are wizards trained by Wood Elves. 3.) There is quite a lot more magic in ''Warhammer'' than those six times eight spells given in the rule book (yes, even more than those additional lores from the army books), so the Blessing of the Lady as a spell isn't quite improbable, just as there might be a Chaos Barbarian using a bow somewhere in the world. With these considerations, I think it's more probable than not that the Wood Elves are behind the Lady than not.
151	*** How about we TakeAThirdOption? The Wood Elves are making sure the humans gain the Blessing, but they're using a power not their own; the Lady is something else entirely that the elves simply take advantage of.
152	*** Perhaps it is not straight spell by the Wood Elves, but something in between the elves and the spirits of Athel Loren, like, a blessing by forest spirits persuaded to do so by the Queen of Wood Elves, or whatever.
153	*** Fay Enchantress, not Fey. Going by the Bretonnian book, the Bretonnians use "Fey" to refer specifically to the Wood Elves, and "Fay" to refer to spirit-stuff in general. That said, the Enchantress is ''probably'' (not definitely) a Wood Elf, if only going by her Elven statline. Thus, the Wood Elves ''might'' be the ones training the damsels, although the Prophetesses of the Lady have access to magic (the Lore of Heavens) that even the greatest Wood Elf wizards do not. Furthermore, the fact that the Wood Elves do not themselves use anything like the Blessing is a pretty strong indicator that they aren't the ones doing it.
154	*** [[TakeAThirdOption Taking a fourth option]] and guessing that it is a combination of all of the above. The original religion was created by the wood elves when the elf queen Ariel contacted a land spirit (perhaps an actual lake spitit) and convinced it to empower a local warlord, Gilles, so he could unite the lands and defeat the orcs that threatened the elves. This worked and afterwards Ariel then "appointed" an elven mage under her to oversee the bretonnians and keep them under control. (I would like to point out that I put quotes because the word appointed is in the codex. The Enchantress was appointed, by someone, to oversee the Bretonnians. Also this quote was in the Wood elf codex not the Bretonnia one, make of that what you will). To help in this the Fey Enchantress takes children from the lands with magical abilities. The girls are trained to fight and the boys are keep as servents (It is said in the wood elf codex that boys from the lands around the forest are taken and serve the elves their). This is done for two reasons; first to keep them from getting to powerful (the damsels can only go up to level 2 when the Enchantress is level 4) and two to keep them under control and not learn to much. To answer to how the blessing of the lady is more powerful then anything the wood elves have is simply that it is. After the 1500 years the people of the kingdom (potentially millions over the years) have been worshiping this lake spirit it has grown in power. So in the end the wood elves control the religion but the lady is a power both outside and possibly greater then them.
155	*** Taking a ''fifth'' option: The Lady of The Lake was originally a Wood Elf ploy, but has since escaped their control. Because of the influence of Chaos and all, it's implied that the gods of the ''Warhammer'' setting run on ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve, so maybe Gilles and his friends were originally enchanted with Woof Elf magic, but as the Brettonians as a people began to believe in this new mysterious goddess of chivalry their faith created an echo in the Realm of Chaos, and now she really does exist and have their best interests at heart.
156	* With the release of the 8th edition Wood Elves Army Book it seems that they have gone away from the idea that the wood elves are responsible for the blessing and the religion. (Spoilers) It is directly stated (and remember that this is from the wood elves perspective) that the spirit known as the lady of the lake, or Corrigyn Daughter of Mists as she is known to Ariel, lives on a mountain called Silverspire and that she gave Gilles power without any of them noticing. Not only that but not long before the year 2522 Drycha allegedly kidnapped the Fay enchantress and, rather pissed, The lady made Ariel come to answer for what happened, they fought for three days, and things were settled in the end. So I think it would be right to say that it has been firmly established that the lady and the wood elves are now completely separate.
157
158	[[WMG:Nagash (and by extension all Necromancers) is an unwitting pawn of the Powers of Law]]
159	Chaos has as much to fear from the undead overrunning the world as anyone, maybe more. There would be no more war, lust, disease or hope -- only a fixed, unchanging immortality where nothing will ever grow or change.
160	* So ''that's'' why Harry the Hammer keeps killing the undead instead of joining the Chaos Hordes when they march.
161
162	[[WMG:The ''Warhammer'' world is a world in the ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'' within the eye of terror]]
163	There were too many connections between the two universes to say that they were completely separate. However, the world was not exactly an average world either. This is because the ''Warhammer'' world was located smack-dab in the middle of the Eye of Terror, the influence of the warp allowed the more fantasy elements in the world to exist. The power of Chaos held supreme in the world (Chaos wastelands, the Skaven) with opposing factions struggling to keep them at bay. This also explains why many of the ''40k'' races and elements managed to exist in one world.
164	* Or the reason so many elements of ''40K'' exists is because ''40K'' started out as "''Warhammer'' In Space".
165	* This guess was already made further up on the page. Read before you post.
166
167	[[WMG: Athel Loren is a god, and the physical forest is a bridge between its realm and the physical world]]
168	In the first half of [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWYfsm-5tk0 this video]], the narrator makes a pretty good case for Athel Loren being closer to the realm of chaos than most of the physical world, to sum up.
169	* Spirits have an easier time manifesting their and even gods can physically walk the forest.
170	* In some areas of the forest, magic is much easier than usual.
171	* Many areas of the forest have an unusual flow of time.
172	Additionally he notes that the forest seems to have gained sentience around the time of the first chaos incursion. So what if that sentience were a god? It would have power over its realm, which it does. The forest is pretty much inhospitable to everyone except the wood elves, who had to make a deal with the forest to receive what safety they have. The various forms of tree spirits are clearly its daemons, and since the trees are a part of its realm, they can be animated by its daemons with relative ease. And since it isn't necessarily allied with the dark gods, it has no reason to want bloodletters or plaguebearers or beastmen within its borders.
173
174	[[WMG: Be'lakor is the same as Azagoth from early ''Warhammer'' lore]]
175	Azagoth is a practically forgotten Chaos God (or Daemon Prince) who came into the material world, and was credited as the '''prime reason''' why the interdimensional gateways of the Old Ones at poles collapsed. Azagoth also conquered the most of southern hemisphere, and was barelly stopped. He also done this all before the Golden Age of Elves, and before the Elves rose against Chaos in the old (retconned?) ''Warhammer'' timeline. This all fits the description of Be'lakor, who was said to rule the world in the time before Elves rose against Chaos, and being worshipped as a Chaos God. This could mean that Be'lakor's punishment, is because of his defeat and banishment by combined efforts of the Dwarven and Elven races, backed up by the magical might of Drachenfels and Taranakh/Gharra'ell'rhal'iann Godfellow. Of course, one could say that Be'lakor/Azagoth's defeat was still caused by his pride, so Be'lakor was still punished for his pride FromACertainPointOfView.
176
177	[[WMG: Be'lakor is a [[BroughtDownToBadass powered down]] Malal, and Necoho and Zuvassin, like the Shadowlord, were guises taken up by Be'lakor/Malal]]
178	It's not beyond impossible the 4 Chaos Gods teamed up against Malal/Be'lakor, and powered him down into a Daemon Prine forced to serve them. Not to mention, Be'lakor was seemingly introduced to fill Malal's role, the point when he was first introduced in the Shadowlord's identity, many players though the Shadowlord (Be'lakor) was actually Malal returned.\
179	During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000''. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite [[VillainsNeverLie his claims of never lying, not seen as very truthfull by fans]], especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\
180	Another point for this theory, is that in ''Warhammer 40,000'', Be'lakor also searches for a chosen and proposed Ahzek Ahriman to become his chosen. To finally cover Necoho and Zuvassin, they could be earlier fonts for a cult of Malal/Be'lakor, in order to gather strength, after he powered down by the other Chaos Gods. Especially that again, like Be'lakor, Necoho and Zuvassin were created by Games Workshop as substitutes for Malal.
181
182	[[WMG: Alternately, Be'lakor, Malal and Azagoth are all different names for the same entity]]
183	After all, there is a great deal of overlap between these three, and all seem to be a take on the ''Fifth Chaos God'' idea.
184
185	[[WMG: Ursun is, or [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes rather, was]] the same god as Ulric.]]
186	Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars (the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally a Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Over time, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.
187
188	[[WMG: At some point in time, the creators considered creating a [[BadassSanta badass]] SantaClaus character who perpetually fights off daemons in the Northern Chaos Wastes]]
189
190	[[WMG: The Skaven act the way they do because of environmental factors rather than their inherent nature]]
191	[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun John B. Calhoun]] did a series of experiments to study the effects of overpopulation on rats. The rats behaved normally at first, but they became increasingly violent and dysfunctional (i.e. Skaven-like) as their environment grew more and more overcrowded. This behavior persists even if the rats are moved to less cramped conditions. Since Skaven are basically giant rats, it's not difficult to imagine that their horrifically overpopulated living conditions ended up giving them horrible mental problems. If this is true, then theoretically, saner and more functional (if not necessarily less evil) Skaven societies could emerge if they had more room and better living conditions.
192
193	[[WMG: Tehenhauin and his successors]]
194	It's very rare for a skink, red-crested or not, to have a distinct cranial horn (and even rarer to have two of them), let alone "look exactly like Tehenhauin." So the only logical explanation to this mystery is {{Reincarnation}}: Much like a snake shedding their old skin, the spirit of the previous, departed Tehenhauin will transfer to another, younger red-crested skink that is chosen to be the next Great Prophet of Sotek, causing them to "inherit" the same, unique twin-tail and large cranial horn through a significant transformation of their body. This theory is enforced by the facts that 1. Skinks weren't designed by the old ones to have biological immortality like the Saurus and Kroxigors and 2. despite predicting the coming of Sotek and having won his favor through countless sacrifices of skaven blood, Sotek did not bless Tehenhauin with immortality.
195
196	[[WMG: The Great Maw is a [[Franchise/StarWars Sarlacc]]]]
197	Besides the physical similarity, in ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'', Sarlaccs reproduce through spores that drift through outer space, eventually landing on new planets to mature into new Sarlaccs. The sorcerers of Grand Cathay created the Maw by pulling an unusually large specimen down onto the world. Of course, the Maw is a tad more large and active than Sarlaccs usually get, but that's warpstone for you.
198
199	[[WMG: Dwarfs' stubborness stems from them having an extremely-effective memory]]
200	A key and defining trait to the Dwarfs of Warhammer Fantasy is a single-minded unwillingness to forgive - be it their enemies, or for those that take the Slayer oath, even themselves. A grudge left unsettled '''must''' be struck out. Why is that? It's probably because a Dwarf's ability to forgive and forget is hampered by how they have a nigh-inability to ''forget''.
201
202	The 300th issue of White Dwarf claimed that "Every Dwarf, from the youngest beardling to the most wizened Longbeard, can recite the Saga of Grombrindal from memory. An epic tale that runs hundreds of verses...", which is a statement that even with a bit of truth to it rather implies that the Dwarfs of Warhammer Fantasy on average are naturally far more capable of fully remembering information than human beings. By comparison, many disinterested human beings would have trouble completely remembering their country's entire national anthem.
203
204	Another more recent anecdote that corraborrates my statement on the average Dwarf's recall is [[https://www.vermintide.com/news/chronicles-of-hedda-bardinsdottir-a-tale-of-treasures this writing for Vermintide II]]. "...me Ma, Grelda, and me Da, Bardin – raised me proper. Any that say otherwise will meet my axe. They taught me that respect for one’s ancestors is paramount, and I can list out my kith and kin, their clans and holds, their accomplishments and their grudges, dating back thousands of years..." This excerpt implies that the average Dwarf will easily be capable of remembering information that many ancient human civilizations would instead relegate to their repositories of information and dedicate individuals' entire occupations to knowing much of this information.
205
206	Because of their stupendous recall, Dwarfs find it difficult to forgive individuals, regardless of the current circumstance, because they easily recall their emotional state at the time of the grievance. As virtually all Dwarfs can also easily remember a similar emotional state as long as they've experienced it, they thus sympathize with the grudge-declarer's anger and could not consider attempting to dissuade the grudge-declarer from their path - before they muster the throngs to avenge the wrong at the soonest appropriate moment, of course.
207
208	Dwarfs take the Slayer oath as their vivid memory of the event that incited taking the oath as well as remembering the shame so keenly constrains their thoughts to such a degree that it might very well be an esoteric MercyKill to dictate that the Dwarf get themselves killed in battle. As Dwarfs hold the lives of their kin in high regard and importance, they are loath to mandate either immediate suicide or execution in response to Dwarfs suffering under an unbearable weight of shame and instead use the Slayer oath to manage them.
209
210	As well, the average Dwarf's obsession with honour and keeping face may also fuel their refusal to forgive out of the fear that letting other races off lightly will cause them to never forget how easy it was once for Dawi pride to be swept aside in favor of their own desires and set an unacceptable precedent - which, given other races are not so inflexible or liable to actively remember such events well, would have Dwarfs fall afoul of the Dunning-Kruger effect, mistakenly assuming other races are as likely to fully remember any given event as they are.

Context WMG / Warhammer