| 1 | New entries on the bottom. |
| 2 | |
| 3 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 4 | |
| 5 | [[folder:Birth control]] |
| 6 | |
| 7 | * Do they have birth control in the Star Wars universe? That seems like it would be a sensible thing for Amidala and Anakin to use, given how they were trying to keep their relationship relatively secret, not to mention other complications it would help avoid. |
| 8 | ** Anakin has never been one to show even a hint of foresight, so it's unlikely that he would have thought to suit up. As for Amidala, she seems like the romantic type, and was totally fine with being pregnant. Maybe she was hoping that an upcoming child would convince Anakin to resign from the Jedi Order (others have left the Order in the past) and settle down to live as a real couple. |
| 9 | ** Padme didn't want Anakin to leave the Order at all. She felt it was important for him to stay a Jedi and not waste his talents. |
| 10 | ** Her opinion might have changed as the war raged on, keeping them apart. She might have wanted to reconsider their respective careers. |
| 11 | ** They had been married for a couple years now, so likely they did use contraception beforehand. Probably after three years they just forgot to use it that one time. |
| 12 | ** Or they had an "accident on purpose" by unspoken mutual consent. They probably both wanted to start a family like a normal married couple, and just hoped they could make it work out once it happened. |
| 13 | *** If the kids had been born, Padme could have raised them on Naboo with her family and divided her time between there and Coruscant. Anakin would not have been able to see them as much, but he would have been very proud to be a family man. |
| 14 | ** Maybe Anakin subconsciously wanted kids, and his Force-powers suppressed the effects of Padme's birth control pills (or whatever SW women use) without either of them consciously intending it to happen. |
| 15 | ** Like real-world birth control, it may not be 100% effective, and Luke and Leia being born may have been the will of the Force. |
| 16 | ** Midi-chlorians? Hey, it happened before! |
| 17 | |
| 18 | [[/folder]] |
| 19 | |
| 20 | [[folder:"Let me fight the Emperor"]] |
| 21 | |
| 22 | * After seeing the recording of Anakin killing younglings, Obi-Wan says "Let me fight the Emperor." However, at that point in the story, Obi-Wan isn't supposed to know that Palpatine had proclaimed himself Emperor. |
| 23 | ** He might have overheard some of the clones still patrolling the temple talking about it. Though only shown guarding the perimeter in the film, the clones were shown to be patrolling the interior as well in the novel, possibly to look for any survivors. Obi-Wan and Yoda make the clone troopers increasingly alarmed by making small patrols disappear and reappear, dead, in out-of-the-way areas. |
| 24 | ** He may also be making a leap of logic based on what he knows of the Sith. Sith like to establish an Empire and an Emperor. Palpatine has just had himself declared grand potentate with sole discretionary power of the Republic. The fact that Palpatine is not actual Emperor in title is effectively a technicality at that point, and Obi-Wan knows that. |
| 25 | ** You know how quickly you learn who the new president is, even if you aren't paying attention to the election? It's like that, only their universe has much better/faster communication and Palpatine outright ''wants'' everyone to know he's now in charge. Obi-wan undoubtedly learned on Bail's ship or on his way to the Temple. |
| 26 | ** Bail was in the senate chambers when Palpatine turned the Republic into an Empire. There's no way he didn't bring that up during the trip back to Coruscant. |
| 27 | *** Except this is out of order; Palpatine's address to the Senate happens during the two Jedi's infiltrating the Temple. He hadn't officially declared an Empire yet at the point they were aboard Organa's ship. But, see below: |
| 28 | ** Not to mention, Palpatine literally tells Anakin in the recording "go and bring peace to the Empire." |
| 29 | |
| 30 | [[/folder]] |
| 31 | |
| 32 | [[folder:Pregnant body]] |
| 33 | |
| 34 | * Why was Padme's body made to look like she was still pregnant? None of the Senators or Naboo people knew she had been. Only Palpatine knew, but the Jedi wouldn't have known that. |
| 35 | ** She needed to appear pregnant in order to protect the twins. If they're believed to be dead with her, no one is going to be looking for them. |
| 36 | ** Indeed, but there'd need to be someone who'd care to look in the first place. Again, the Jedi didn't know Palpatine knew about her pregnancy, but should know from Bail that none of the other Senators knew yet. |
| 37 | ** Actually, they'd be absolute fools to think that Palpatine would not know of Padme's pregnancy. Anakin knew, to an extent became Vader because of it, creating the possibility that Palpatine would also know something like that. Though Obi-Wan and Yoda may have been unaware that Anakin/Vader was still alive rather than the incredibly charred corpse he appeared to be before donning the iconic black suit, there is no way they would underestimate Palpatine again. If the man even suspected, and probably did sense, Padme's pregnancy, steps to keep the Skywalker twins' existence a secret would be critical. Really, there is very little way the man that orchestrated the twin falls of the Republic and the Jedi Order did not know of the pregnancy. Risking him investigating and discovering two Force-sensitives with the same incredible potential as their father was not an option. |
| 38 | *** Besides, Palpatine had operatives on Naboo. Panaka, the former security captain of Padme during her time as queen, was a personal friend of Palpatine's. In Legends, he was the one who informed Palpatine of the secret marriage. Later as emperor, Palpatine made Panaka a moff in both Legends and canon. |
| 39 | ** Ah. Makes sense, considering Yoda had just witnessed Palpatine's power over the Force. |
| 40 | ** On the other hand, they ''did'' see Anakin referred to as Vader on the recording in the Temple, and a dark-side force user named Darth Vader who wears life-support armor popping up might be a tad conspicuous. |
| 41 | ** There's nothing to lose from Obi-Wan and Yoda's perspective by making Padme seem pregnant. OTOH, if anyone knew she was pregnant and then sees her not pregnant during her funeral, then the jig is up. Sure its likely Anakin was the only one who knew and he's likely dead but why take the chance? |
| 42 | ** Assuming no one but a select few knew about the pregnancy is kind of a logical fallacy. Padme was quite obviously pregnant, and she wasn't hiding herself away. The secret wasn't that she was pregnant, it was that Anakin was the father (fairly spelled out by Obi-Wan when he says as such). Considering that, and that they'd be stupid to assume Palpatine didn't know, making her appear to be still pregnant after her death was pretty much a no-brainer. Couple that with the SE conversation in Empire, where Vader's response to the intel that the son of Anakin Skywalker destroyed the first Death Star ("How is that possible?") and it wouldn't have made any sense NOT to fake it. |
| 43 | |
| 44 | [[/folder]] |
| 45 | |
| 46 | [[folder:Bringing soldiers as backup against Sith]] |
| 47 | |
| 48 | * Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda, instead of separately taking on Sidious and Anakin, get a squad of Bail Organa's soldiers, march in together to the Emperor's office and kill the Emperor? And then they can take down Anakin in the same way. Two against one are pretty good odds for Yoda and Obi-Wan. And another thing, why did Yoda leave the Senate building. He and Sidious were pretty much equals from what it looked like. He gets knocked to the floor and chooses to run? Why wouldn't Yoda Force his lightsaber to him and try to kill Sidious again? It's only the fate of the ENTIRE GALAXY. |
| 49 | ** Read the novelization. Its clear there that Yoda could not win that fight. Also, it would be incredibly dumb to bring any of Senator Organa's soldiers along on what is technically an assassination, never mind the complications this would add to the plan. As for double-teaming Palpatine and Anakin in turn, there's no reason to assume that they could even get close to one without losing any chance of ever engaging the other one. You take one out, the other gets somewhere safe. Attacking both of them one on one offered the best chance of bringing down the Empire before it really formed. |
| 50 | ** Well, aside from commandeering an ARC fighter and lobbing a few proton torpedoes into Palpatine's office, but Jedi aren't generally fans of what we might call the Mandalorian Method. |
| 51 | ** Yes to the above. If Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda he would have only been in the way. Dooku utterly manhandles Kenobi with the Force and Sidious is even more powerful than him. A bunch of normal guys with blasters wouldn't help either against one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. As for lobbing missiles in Palpatine's office, he'd probably sense a huge attack like that coming long before they even get there. In the novel, he sensed Mace's team coming well in advance. |
| 52 | ** In addition to the above reasons, Alderaanians are inherently pacifist. Bail has a few private security guards, but that's a far cry from having battle-ready troops ready to take on a powerful Force-user. Plus, launching an attack is entirely against their philosophy. |
| 53 | |
| 54 | [[/folder]] |
| 55 | |
| 56 | [[folder:Buzz droids]] |
| 57 | |
| 58 | * What use are buzz droids? If you can hit a ship with a missile, why not just hit the ship with a big warhead and destroy it, rather than use a missile that turns into little droids that try to take the ship apart but still give your target a chance to escape alive (as Obi-Wan does)? |
| 59 | ** For capture purposes, perhaps. Or to bring down shields on larger ships. Also as distractions while other ships attack you. |
| 60 | ** Because you don't have to hit the ship with the missile if you're using a lot of little droids with limited ability to propel themselves, you just have to get the missile into the general vicinity. This is a valuable thing in a war where a notable portion of the opposing forces has supernatural reaction time. |
| 61 | ** They were repurposed industrial disassembly droids and were used as an improvised solution to aid the unreliable point defense of CIS. Guess they were cheaper than smart warheads, and units that were not destroyed were reusable. |
| 62 | ** If I recall correctly, that WAS their original role, but then they discovered that they were far more effective and fear-inducing on starfigthers than capital ships. |
| 63 | [[/folder]] |
| 64 | |
| 65 | [[folder:Resurrection]] |
| 66 | |
| 67 | * So, did Anakin / Vader not, at any point during the time jump between Episodes III and IV, say to Palpatine, "Hey, Master, now sure would be a good time to teach me that bringing-people-back-from-the-dead deal like you promised! Sure would like to see my wife and unborn kids again, maybe give her a heartfelt apology!"? And when it became clear that Palpy either couldn't or wouldn't, why would Vader continue to serve him for another however many years until Luke showed up? It's unlikely he was just biding his time: he had no reason to believe that there would ever be anyone with the Force mojo and the motivation to help him make a credible play for power. Trying to lightshiv him directly might have been suicide given how much more powerful the Emperor is, but either that or making a run for it seem preferable to helping the guy consolidate absolute dictatorial power over the next couple decades. |
| 68 | ** It wasn't a "bringing people back from the dead deal". It was a "stop them from dying" deal. And you're assuming that Vader's going to be rational, when he's clearly so utterly tortured by his own pain and guilt that he can barely think straight until many years after. |
| 69 | ** The exact words were "cheat death," which is certainly open to interpretation, but either way, Palpatine never delivered on his promise, and the whole thing was obviously a huge bait-and-switch in retrospect. Why would Vader keep serving him? It doesn't make sense that he "couldn't think straight" enough to question it for TWENTY YEARS. |
| 70 | ** Several quotes. Sidious tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis "had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying." ''Kept from dying'', not resurrection. Later he says "You will be able to save your wife from certain death"; he says ''save her from death'', not reverse it. Last quote: "I know we can discover the secret to eternal life." This one comes just after the cheating death line, showing he's talking about cheating it by living forever, not resurrecting. Therefore, once Padme was dead, there was nothing Anakin nor Sidious could do to bring her back.\ |
| 71 | \ |
| 72 | As for why Anakin didn't just kill him in retaliation, the novelization answers this. Anakin ''does'' try to kill Sidious during his NOOO! outburst, but then relents because Sidious is the only person left who shows him compassion. Also, he knows it's his own fault Padme died, not Sidious's. |
| 73 | ** Plus, the full line is "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal life." |
| 74 | ** Also in the [[WordOfGod audio commentary]], it's explained that from the moment Palpatine said that line, that they could discover the secret together, Anakin knew he'd been lying the entire time. From then on he was basically just ping-ponging between biding his time until he could kill Sidious, and not wanting to kill Sidious because he was the closest thing to a friend he had left. |
| 75 | ** For what it's worth, the novelization of Film/ReturnOfTheJedi makes clear that Vader ''is'' planning to kill/overthrow Sidious, though it leaves his motives vague. |
| 76 | ** Anakin mentions to Padme before the big duel with Obi-Wan that he plans to overthrow Sidious and rule the galaxy for himself. Even in Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack, Vader tells Luke that together they can overthrow the Emperor and end this "destructive conflict". It's apparent that the "friendship" of Vader and Sidious is simply for each other's convenience. |
| 77 | ** Another reason he doesn't kill Sidious outright-he simply can't. Being turned into a cyborg vastly affects his ability to touch the Force; it takes him a long time to acclimate to the armor and artificial limbs, and he has to change his whole fighting style to focus on his strength, not speed. Where he once was a match for Sidious, a fight after the Mustafar duel would have been suicide for him. |
| 78 | ** Also, not only is Sidious far more skilled and powerful than Vader, he's a Chessmaster to boot. Vader's got no hope of tricking or manipulating him, like Sidious did to Plagueis. |
| 79 | |
| 80 | [[/folder]] |
| 81 | |
| 82 | [[folder:Death by childbirth]] |
| 83 | |
| 84 | * Just how many women normally die in childbirth in the Star Wars galaxy? Especially wealthy, politically elite women? After all, their medical science is pretty advanced, and even in the modern day real world mortality rates in childbirth are fairly low. This would suggest that if Padme ''were'' going to die, the cause would not be a simple biological one. More likely it would be because of an ''event'' that caused her to be injured somehow. If Anakin believed that he could alter destiny by learning some esoteric Force power, would it not be even more logical that he could accomplish the same thing simply by doing a better job of keeping her safe? After all, when his mother was being tortured and dying, he had visions of it. He only learned after the fact that it was because she had actually been abducted by Sand People. The only real problem being that he got there too late to save her, not that she could not have been saved had she been rescued sooner. Of course the joke was on Anakin, since ''he'' was really the one who killed Padme via Force Choke, fulfilling his own vision. |
| 85 | ** This was effectively Padme's response to Anakin's vision. Namely, his vision is full of shit because women flat ''don't'' die during childbirth on planets like Coruscant. Unfortunately, Anakin paradoxically believes YouCantFightFate when it comes to his visions even though he is trying to ScrewDestiny at the same time. |
| 86 | ** Anakin is probably more influenced by the prospect of death in childbirth because he grew up on Tatooine, a place where only the Hutts and their favored servants have reliable access to good medicine; it wouldn't be a surprise if it turned out some of his childhood friends had lost their mothers in such a way. Padmé, meanwhile, comes from a wealthy background on a planet so paradisiacal it makes Risa, the pleasure planet from ''Franchise/StarTrek'', look like a lousy sports bar in Detroit. It makes sense that something that would remind Anakin of his deeply shitty childhood would make him a bit irrational. |
| 87 | ** Supposedly she dies of windpipe damage coupled with severe depression, although one has to wonder about medical science that A) can save a man who loses 30% of his body mass to amputations and then receives third-degree burns over his remaining body, and yet B) has no concept of respiratory repair or 'antidepressants'. Heck, if she's that bad-off, have her frozen in carbonite until they develop a cure for Plot-Mandated Fatality Syndrome. |
| 88 | ** Well, they didn't have carbonite freezers (or whatever you call it) and you need to know something is wrong to do something about it. The droid doctors probably didn't have enough programmed information/experience to deal with humans since the mining station does not seem to have a single human that didn't arrive there on Padme's ship. Padme's situation is a bit specific, so it might have been hard to diagnose. This is what happens when you have major medical problems on the aft end of nowhere where humans are few and far between. |
| 89 | ** Which begs the further question: do the Jedi get ''any'' first aid training ''at all''? Obi-Wan ''saw'' Anakin Force-Choke Padme and demanded that he stop, which was when she collapsed! On the entire flight from Mustafar to Polis Massa, and once they were there trying to get care for her, did it not occur to him that her poor condition might have something to do with the fact that the most recent injury she had suffered was nearly being ''choked to death''? This was lampshaded in the ''WesternAnimation/RobotChicken'' parody: |
| 90 | --->'''[[ItMakesSenseInContext Dr. Ball]]:''' "''She's lost the will to live''"?! What is your degree in, Poetry? You sorry bunch of Hippies! |
| 91 | ** This was brought up in the WMG page. Obi-Wan may ''not'' have known basic first aid or that Padme was suffering internal injuries like normal people would, because Obi-Wan's not normal--[[MagicKnight he's a ridiculously fit Jedi]] with PsychicPowers, and he was brought up around OTHER people exactly like him, from childhood. The Jedi probably use the Force (intentionally or instinctively) to avoid things like internal injuries or blunt-force trauma, so [[IThoughtEveryoneCouldDoThat Obi-Wan might not realize that normal humans are a LOT more breakable without it.]] |
| 92 | ** It is highly unlikely that Obi-Wan wouldn't know both basic first aid and also Force Healing as it is in a Jedi's remit to preserve life, and the light side of the Force is well suited for this. He was just simply too busy warding off Anakin to be able to treat Padme. |
| 93 | ** Don't forget, Obi-Wan didn't exactly have time to give her first aid, he was kinda busy getting into a fight with Vader. Afterwards, whatever Force healing skills he had would've been drained, and he may have just decided that the best thing to do was take her to a nearby medical centre. |
| 94 | * It might be that Vader force-absorbed Padme's remaining lifeforce to prevent his own death. It'd be very dark side for the method of preventing death requiring the death of another, especially someone you love, and his survival instincts might've caused it subconsciously. In the actual film, the scenes of her death and Vader being converted are happening at the same time, and the heartbeat in the audio actually stops for several seconds before his mask is sealed. |
| 95 | [[/folder]] |
| 96 | |
| 97 | [[folder:Palpatine's hood]] |
| 98 | * How does Darth Sidious manage to keep his hoodie up the ''entire time'' while dueling Yoda, jumping down a long distance, getting tossed, doing a backflip, and hanging on to a ledge for dear life? |
| 99 | ** The Force/Velcro/Safety pins. |
| 100 | ** ''The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some would consider to be... unnatural.'' |
| 101 | --> That, or static cling... |
| 102 | [[/folder]] |
| 103 | |
| 104 | [[folder:Mercy Kill]] |
| 105 | |
| 106 | * Why didn't Obi-Wan MercyKill Anakin after cutting off his legs and watching him catch on fire? Wouldn't that have been the compassionate thing to do, instead of screaming "You were my brother! I loved you!" and running away to leave him to die in agony? Are the Jedi against euthanasia? Did Obi-Wan want [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation him to suffer]]? Or was it that he just could not bring himself to wield the killing blow (though if that's the case, he's kinda a hypocrite.) |
| 107 | ** In the novel it was explained, that at that exact moment the Emperor was approaching, and Obi-Wan didn't have time to go down the slope and stab Ani. Sure, he could've Force Pushed the bastard into lava or hurled the sword at him, but he also fancies that yes, he cannot bring himself up to killing a defenseless enemy. |
| 108 | ** Further, the novel also explains that Obi-Wan, having had his entire Order destroyed by someone he considered his brother, wasn't feeling particularly merciful. Dark though it may be, part of him WANTED Anakin to suffer on the lava bank. |
| 109 | ** He considers both of those points, the need to get Padme medical attention, and the chances of Sidious being able to save Anakin and ultimately decides to leave it to the will of the Force. |
| 110 | ** Because certainly the Force had just been ''so'' [[GodIsEvil benevolent towards the Jedi Order lately]]... |
| 111 | |
| 112 | [[/folder]] |
| 113 | |
| 114 | [[folder:Palpatine needing Anakin]] |
| 115 | |
| 116 | * Why does Palpatine need Anakin? By the beginning of this film, he already has the power to destroy the Jedi Order and become Emperor. Yet he spends a lot of time and takes huge risks (he could certainly have died when Grievous's ship crashed on Coruscant) in order to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. For what purpose? Anakin leads the attack against the Jedi Temple and slaughters the leaders of the Separatists, but Palpatine could undoubtedly have accomplished these things without him. Even the novelization, which usually makes more sense than the movie, doesn't really explore the matter: it's vaguely suggested that Anakin would publicly denounce the Jedi Order as corrupt, but that certainly doesn't happen and it certainly doesn't change anything. There's also the fact that Palpatine expects Anakin to become more powerful than himself... and thus very likely to murder and replace him. In short, corrupting Anakin simply has more cons than pros. One possible and interesting explanation would be that Palpatine is doing this selflessly, for the good of the Sith: his main goal would not be to rule the galaxy, but to have a successor as powerful as possible. |
| 117 | ** He wanted Anakin on his side ''precisely'' because he was so powerful; it's probably safer in the long run to bring him to the dark side than let him continue to grow in power and possibly find/kill him. Palpatine wouldn't want to lead the attack anyways; besides being much more of a schemer in the prequels, it'd blow his cover as a Sith Lord. Finally, it's pretty much a Sith tradition to be a backstabbing cockbite; he probably expected him to try to off him at one point. Survival of the fittest is a key Sith trait, and if Palpatine couldn't hold onto his power, he didn't deserve it. |
| 118 | ** It is explained in ''Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader'', a novel that takes place immediately after the events of ''Revenge of the Sith'', that Palpatine ''wants'' Vader to reach his full potential, even to Palpatine's own peril. Palpatine believes that the limitations on Vader's power are not a result of his injuries but rather because he still has a remnant of Anakin's goodness left in him, because if the Force was a matter of the will and not of the flesh then Vader would be able to reach his potential if he could will himself to forget about his past. Palpatine wants Vader to reach his full potential so that TheDarkSide as a whole can become far more powerful than ever before, he believes that with Vader's help true immortality and ultimate power can be achieved, so in the long run he wants Vader and himself to be the final two Sith Lords in history. |
| 119 | ** It's also suggested during his duel with Yoda: "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." On some level, it seems that Palpatine really does hold to the Sith philosophy, and chose Vader not just for any strategic reason but because he's the strongest Force-user in the galaxy and has the potential to be an even stronger Sith Lord than himself. |
| 120 | ** Yeah, TheDarkSide is the only thing Palpatine cares about more than himself. He wants what's good for the dark side of the Force much more than what's good for himself or the galaxy. But more than anything it's a great deal easier for him to successfully eradicate the Jedi if he has a man on the inside. Anakin would have known what the ideal time and entrance would be for the clone troopers to invade the temple, and he would have made their getting through whatever security measures existed a great deal quicker and easier. Not to mention that he would be intimately familiar with the layout of the Temple. For the invasion to be a successful sneak attack, too quick and extensive for anyone to get away from, the odds are much better if there's a Jedi involved. Finally, as strange as it sounds with all the grief, manipulation, and deception involved, Palpatine does seem to have a certain measure of genuine avuncular affection for Anakin. Note carefully the genuine horror when he says, "I sense Lord Vader is in danger," and the palpable relief when he finds that although he was too late to save Anakin, the charbroiled fuck is still alive. |
| 121 | ** Also, one of Palpatine's greatest desires is to beat the Jedi. At everything. He preferred to leave many of the surviving Jedi alive to rub his victory in their faces, killing them only when doing so would further his other plans. He left the burned husk of the Jedi Temple alone for quite a while after Order 66 as a way of saying "I won, bitches." So when the Jedi have a ChosenOne, he is going to ''steal'' that Chosen One. Just because he can. Just because it's one more way of showing he's better than the Jedi. |
| 122 | ** Even with all his power, Palpatine knows he's not immortal, and he's aging even before being deformed by his own Force lightning. It's likely that he doesn't want everything he accomplishes to be torn apart after his own death, even if ensuring it's not will entail finding a successor who may bump him off sooner than old age can. |
| 123 | ** That doesn't make sense either - he has extensive contingency plans for his death and a network of cloning facilities (which come back to bite the Jedi in the ass in the EU). |
| 124 | ** He wants Vader to kill him, but he also wants Vader to ''really'' work for it. If Vader is truly a worthy successor, then he'll figure out about the contingency plans (if he doesn't know about them anyway) and deal with them as well. |
| 125 | ** Alternatively, Palpatine has a bigger scheme in mind and was willing to let Vader (if he proves himself worthy) Bring Order to the Galaxy while freeing Palpatine to secretly work on more advanced and esoteric DarkSide stuff. LoopholeAbuse, then-- the Sith survive and the Rule of Two is upheld, but the master manages to cheat death even though his apprentice technically killed him. |
| 126 | ** EU material claims that Palpatine had abandoned the Rule of Two and substituted the Rule of One, namely that Palpatine himself would live forever and everyone would serve him. If so, the only reason he wants Anakin is to use him as a servant, not to set him up as a replacement. As for why he took such risks to make that happen, he just figured that he could pull it off. As Luke says, "Your overconfidence is your weakness." |
| 127 | ** As noted above, Vader can deal with a lot of stuff that Palpatine doesn't want to. Someone needs to hunt down all those renegade Jedi and crush any rebels who pop up. Sure, he'd have other servants, but why get rid of a servant who's a) not very likely to kill you (see above thread), b) a very dangerous Jedi hunter, and c) a great commander for the Imperial Military? |
| 128 | ** Don’t know how long it’s been since this folder has been updated, but a possible explanation that has been given post-Disney-continuity-reboot is that Palpatine is planning a GrandTheftMe against Anakin. After all, at the conclusion of all three trilogies, Palpatine urges a young, powerful Jedi to strike him down, he just becomes less and less subtle about it, outright explaining the trick to Rey in ''Film/TheRiseOfSkywalker''. After the duel on Mustafar and Anakin’s defeat, he simply decides to keep the weakened Vader around as muscle, knowing he can dispose of him any time he needs to by engineering his suit to be vulnerable to lightning. |
| 129 | [[/folder]] |
| 130 | |
| 131 | [[folder:Padme's death]] |
| 132 | |
| 133 | * What's up with Padme's death? Broken heart syndrome? Seriously? Sure it's a real life ailment but if someone suffered from it that would seem to imply that a person has given up on life because there is no more hope, Padme had hope she had something to live for, Anakin was still alive albeit in the form of Vader and she had healthy children. Padme gave up on life because of a broken heart when there is still a life for her to lead with her new family? '''LAME.''' Even theories like Padme's airway was broken when Vader choked her or or a Force bond with her husband causing her to feel Vader's pain as he is being operated on, sound '''infinitely''' better than, "I have a broken heart, let me die." |
| 134 | ** Why do so many people insist that Padmé died of a broken heart when it is ''never'' said so in the movie? Sure, Padmé tells Anakin that he's breaking her heart, but it seemed pretty obvious that she meant in figuratively, not literally. Granted, the actual explanation for her death being that she lost the will to live is not very clearly defined, but no character, at any point, ''ever'' says that she's dying of a broken heart. |
| 135 | ** Because what else would Padme have lost the will to live from? A broken arm? There is a real life syndrome called broken heart syndrome that causes heart attacks, heart pain/weakness, and even manifests as heart disease symptoms, what is striking about this syndrome is that the person is an otherwise healthy person but for some reason their health just declines for apparently no reason. Doctors are still debating if it is a valid syndrome rather than some other health problem they can't track inside the body but it is starting to get into the mainstream, and some doctors will tell you that traumatic emotional events can indeed weaken the heart and that it is basically the person giving up on life and that lack of a will to live apparently can cause health problems. However whatever you call it, "a broken heart" or "lost the will the live", it is stupid that Padme just died so suddenly when there were things for her to hold on to life for, you know like her '''children.''' This paints Padme as weak. |
| 136 | ** The droid diagnosing it as "lost the will to live" thing isn't 100% truthful. The droid admits that it has ''no'' idea why Padmé is dying. And that's because it's an effect of the Force. It's unknown the Force is literally sapping Padmé's will to leave, or just pushed her to the brink of death where only the will to live could save her, or even that it has nothing to do with the will to live at all and the droid is just clutching at straws, but the fact is, one way or another, it's Anakin's use of the Force that's killing her and the droid has no knowledge of the Force and therefore no way of explaining it and so can only describe what's happening from the way it appears to him. It doesn't mean Padmé specifically is weak, any other non-Force sensitive character would suffer the same fate. |
| 137 | ** The droid was full of shit. Padme is strangled and slammed down onto a rock and dies within the hour and they still think it's because she's lost the will to live. |
| 138 | ** Well, Padme was unconscious for most of the duel. Then she's forced to go through child labor as she gives birth to ''two babies''! Her body had been through hell. It's a wonder she held on for this long. |
| 139 | ** In the novelization, Anakin killed her through their Force-bond, drawing on her life to keep himself alive despite his terrible injuries. He didn't want to, he tried to cut the link, he tried to stop the drain, and he simply could not do it. Despite his best efforts. So now you know exactly why he gave out with a BigNo when Palpatine said that he'd killed her. |
| 140 | ** She could have died from internal hemorrhaging (either abdominal or uterine) as a result of childbirth- hence exactly what Anakin foresaw in his visions. In some cases internal bleeding can evade medical detection and can easily be fatal. Perhaps Padme was destined to die in childbirth all along and there was [[YouCantFightFate really nothing Anakin could do to stop it.]] |
| 141 | ** Consider this though on the whole "Broken Heart Syndrome." She's already suffered from near-asphyxia from the "Force Choke", which weakens the brain and heart from oxygen starvation. Couple that with Blunt Force Trauma, which could cause Internal Bleeding. Now, her emotional state is shattered because the man she loved has changed, and he just attacked her (Ask any DV victim what this does to you.) The Broken Heart Syndrome weakens the muscle fibers in her heart (Note that this syndrome is more common in women). Now, remember that just after suffering all this, she gives birth. Childbirth is strenuous even on a perfectly healthy heart, many women even in developed nations have died during childbirth due to their heart failing. So imagine what childbirth will do to a damaged and weakened heart. Also, there have been many cases of patients dying too early because they lose the will to live, or they live longer than expected because they still have the will to live. In all honesty, Padme's death may have been just from the Perfect Storm of circumstances. |
| 142 | * WordOfGod is that the droids weren't familiar enough with human physiology to be able to diagnose Padme's damaged trachea. |
| 143 | |
| 144 | [[/folder]] |
| 145 | |
| 146 | [[folder:Separatist leaders]] |
| 147 | |
| 148 | * "After you have killed all the Jedi in the Temple, go to the Mustafar system. Wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the other Separatist leaders." You know, Anakin should really be thinking "Wait... how come ''you'' know where the Separatist leaders are and haven't done anything about it before now? Isn't it interesting how you could have ended the war at any time, but conveniently waited until I had been converted? It's almost like a... conspiracy." |
| 149 | ** "Anakin should really be thinking". Indeed, he should. Furthermore, he probably should've started to back at the time of Episode 2. Seriously though, I guess all other concerns in his mind were blotched out by a giant neon sign saying "PADME". |
| 150 | ** True, it's in-character for Anakin, but wouldn't a great [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] like Palpatine at least wait until after Anakin had killed all the Jedi in the Temple and then pretended they just got intel on the location of the Separatists? It'd still be somewhat fishy, but at least it would be better than "Oh, in addition to being a Sith Lord, I just happen to know where the Separatists are. [[SuspiciouslySpecificDenial That's not suspicious at all.]]" |
| 151 | ** Anakin has already accepted these circumstances. He has know for years that the mysterious Sith Lord they had been searching for was the ultimate leader of the separatist movement and army and he knew that said Sith Lord had infiltrated the Republic Senate. By kneeling before Palpatine, Anakin is essentially conceding the following: "I know that you are the 'ultimate evil' that I, and my fellow Jedi, have been seeking for the last decade. I realize now that you manipulated the Trade Federation into invading the home world of my beloved Padme as a tactic to get the Republic Senate to elect you Chancellor. I know now that you created the separatist movement and lead the separatist army to war against the Republic only to facilitate your assumption of more power than any Chancellor has ever wielded and ultimately to gain absolute control over the Republic. Your agents have killed my friends - including the man who freed me from slavery. Your agent took my arm. Your agents have attempted to kill my beloved Padme countless times. Your war has killed (at least) millions of Republic citizens. You are, in fact, the personification of everything evil I have fought against since I left Tatooine. But, you say that maybe you can help me save my beloved Padme from some obscure possible death I have dreamed about although for all I know you simply put those images into my head to further manipulate me. By kneeling before you, I accept that although you are purely evil, I will take you at your word regarding saving my wife and I am willing to do whatever you ask to win your help, even if that means slaughtering children, my best friend and mentor, and anyone else you point to." |
| 152 | ** Anakin should really have gotten suspicious of Palpatine's motives when he told Anakin to kill Dooku instead of bringing him in for trial, and later when Palpatine told Anakin to leave Obi-Wan to his fate. Trouble is, ever since the death of his mother Anakin had been slipping toward the Dark Side, and none of the Jedi had been perceptive enough to notice (possibly due to Palpatine blocking them). |
| 153 | ** Anakin's actions make sense in that they stem from his desperate rationalizations. Note that he never really joins Palpatine -- on Mustafar, he basically tells Padmé that he intends to overthrow him. Yet, Palpatine offers Anakin all of the information he needs. He has the power to save Padmé, he is poised to take over the Republic, and he knows where the Separatists are hiding. In joining him, Anakin can not only save his wife, but also bring a swift and decisive end to the war (that has cost so many lives) while forming the Empire (which he clearly believes will be to the benefit of the galaxy). Under the circumstances, he adopts a very "ends justify the means" mentality in that he is willing to sacrifice the Jedi in order to see these goals fulfilled. Anakin's increasing disillusionment with the Jedi also likely made it easier for him to justify his actions to himself. The threat to Padmé's life is what acts as the emotional tipping point, but Anakin also clearly rationalizes that he is doing the right thing for the galaxy in general as well, given his frequent references to ending the war and bringing peace. |
| 154 | ** Funny enough, but long before the prequels, the comic Dark Empire gives a pretty good explanation to what Anakin may have been intending, via Luke. Luke rationalizes that he should "pretend" to follow (the clone of) Palpatine in order to get close enough to take him out. He fails to heed Yoda's warning of "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." It's only Leia's intervention that snaps the cycle. Unfortunately, Revenge of the Sith doesn't dive too deep in to complex motivations, but if you look at it that way, with it taking over 20 years for someone to properly pull his head out of his backside, it also works for Anakin. He's just helped kill Mace Windu in an act that was meant to completely protect a Sith Lord, he's in a "No going back now" mindset. Put a "I'll pretend to follow him to get what I want, consequences be damned, then take him out and break the cycle" in his brain, which is completely an idea Anakin would have, and it makes a bit more sense. |
| 155 | ** The game hints at this -- there's an alternative ending, where you play as Anakin during the final duel instead of Obi-Wan, and after he wins, Anakin immediately kills Palpatine. |
| 156 | ** This all makes a lot more sense taking a future line into account: "From my point of view, ''the Jedi'' are evil!" Anakin's not just throwing out a "NoYou," he's stating that it's the fault of the complacent and borderline incompetent Jedi, who failed to properly guard peace and justice in corrupt and bureaucratically deadlocked Republic, that let Palpatine set his schemes in motion and gain such power and influence. If the Jedi and the Repbulic had really been all they could be, Anakin wouldn't have been born into slavery, the Trade Federation's greed wouldn't have endangered Naboo, disgruntled systems wouldn't have wanted to leave and made easy prey for Dooku, and so on. To his way of thinking, the status quo -- democracy and freedom -- has been a dismal failure, so it's time to try some order and security. And if that means falling in line behind the man who brought the status quo crashing down. . . well, if the [[WebVideo/DrHorriblesSingAlongBlog status had been quo]], he never would have been able to do it, would he? |
| 157 | |
| 158 | [[/folder]] |
| 159 | |
| 160 | [[folder:Fight matchups]] |
| 161 | |
| 162 | * When Yoda is determining who should fight Palpatine and who should fight Anakin he tells Obi-Wan to fight Anakin because he's not skilled enough to fight Palpatine. It was established in Episode II that Anakin's skill with the lightsaber was already Yoda's equal, and by Episode III he was better. |
| 163 | ** The only person who says Anakin is as good as Yoda is Anakin who, as we all knew, is an arrogant kid. And the events of Episode II bear out that Yoda ''is'' better. Of the two, which is the one who forces Dooku into a retreat, and which is the one who gets his arm lopped off? |
| 164 | ** The actual quote is: Obi-Wan: If you spent as much time practicing your saber skills as you do your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman. Anakin: I thought I already did. Obi-Wan: Only in your mind, my very young apprentice. |
| 165 | ** Going by the Expanded Universe Anakin by the time of Revenge of the Sith is listed as having tier 9 lightsaber skills, which is the pinnacle of lightsaber ability and a level that Yoda is also at. The lightsaber portion of the duel has potential to end in a draw but Yoda's Force power would spell victory over Anakin in an exchange of the Force. It should also be noted that Obi-Wan is listed as a tier 8 so the only thing that allowed him to survive Anakin's onslaught was his patience in waiting him out using a defensive style and then striking when an opening revealed itself. Had Anakin not provided that opening by trying to jump to Obi-Wan's higher ground then he could have won, it was Anakin's rage that cost him a duel he would have otherwise have won. |
| 166 | ** What. Anakin as good as Yoda!!?? Yoda could've polished his youngling's training sabers with Sir Whinybottom's saber skills! |
| 167 | ** "I don't like a character" is not the same thing as "The character is unskilled and bad at everything". Anakin is portrayed as a very devoted and proficient warrior... it's one of the major indications that he could go bad, after all, since the Jedi are supposed to see fighting as a last resort. There's also the fact that everyone, ''including Yoda'', remarks on how extremely strong in the Force he is, and in the Star Wars setting using lightsabers is almost as much Force ability as martial training. As to relative power levels... yes, Yoda probably could have beaten Anakin, and probably rather more easily than Obi-Wan did, since he had the edge of experience and maneuverability over Anakin... but considering that Yoda gets his little green ass handed to him by Palpatine, Obi-Wan would probably have been nothing more than a momentary distraction to the new Emperor. |
| 168 | ** Palpatine's main forms of attack seemed to be telekinesis and lightnings, not a lightsaber. Yoda seemed a bit surprised about the lightnings, but he probably knew for whatever reason (maybe that's how Sith Lords fight?) that Palpatine would be using these types of attacks, against which Yoda could protect himself better than Obi-Wan. So sending Obi-Wan to fight the guy who was mostly using the same method as he was, even if the guy was somewhat better with it, would make more sense than sending him fight Palpatine, against whose attacks Obi-Wan would have had no chances. |
| 169 | ** Okay, so why not ''both'' go to kill Anakin (*cough* epic curb-stomp *cough*) And then both go and kill Palpatine? Yoda was on the verge of success after all and Obi-Wan's pretty damn powerful himself, so why not? |
| 170 | ** They probably thought that time was of the essence. They *just* found out about Anakin's betrayal, so they decided to confront Palpatine and Anakin as soon as possible so things didn't get any worse than they already were. The two were the biggest threats and the reason why everything wrong had happened, after all. |
| 171 | ** They were right about that, too. Palpatine had ''just'' instituted his order and ascended to power. Every day, every ''hour'' he is left to his own devices is more dead Jedi and his hold on power becomes consolidated. After the prequels Palpatine went into such seclusion that it's not until ''Return of the Jedi'' that the Rebellion thinks they even have a vague shot at assassinating him. He likely would have done something similar quite soon after taking power anyway specifically to avoid any surviving Jedi taking a shot at him and getting lucky. Yoda basically had that ''one chance'' to stop Palpatine, and even then the Jedi Order and possibly the Republic itself would have been crippled or dead for decades. |
| 172 | ** Which is what makes the splitting up strategy even more nonsensical. However powerful Anakin might have been in the Force, he lacked the political and military connections necessary to seize control of the Republic[=/=]Empire in the event of Palpatine's death. The Senate was ''highly'' unlikely to declare him [[PresidentEvil Chancellor]] or [[TheEmperor Emperor]]! His belief that he could do so was just delusions of grandeur caused by being DrunkOnTheDarkSide. Plus, he was on a remote planet at the time. It would have made ''far'' more sense for Yoda and Obi-Wan to double-team Palpatine, since all three of them were already on Coruscant anyway, rather than for Yoda to send Obi-Wan off to fight a battle he was emotionally conflicted about fighting. Together they could have taken Palpatine down, and then turned their attention to dealing with Anakin with Bail Organa and the other Republic senators providing air cover to keep the military off their backs while they did so. |
| 173 | ** From what we've seen in Phantom Menace, Clones, and Revenge, a Sith is easily capable of fighting and winning against multiple Jedi, perhaps even better than a Jedi would. Palpatine trained Dooku and Maul. He's more than capable of holding off Yoda and Obi-Wan. |
| 174 | ** So that makes Yoda tackling Palpatine solo more logical in what way? In the actual fight, Yoda and Palpatine were pretty evenly-matched. Yoda ''was'' centuries older and more experienced after all, which balanced Palpatine's Dark Side edge. If Obi-Wan had been there to tip the scales, it would have been a clear win. For example, while Palpatine was pouring everything he had into firing Force Lightning at Yoda, who was similarly matching him with his ability to block it, Obi-Wan could have simply leaped in and beheaded Palpatine with his lightsaber and it would have all been over right then and there! |
| 175 | ** Why assume that the rest of the fight would've gone the same way? Palpatine probably would've instead targeted Obi-Wan first, knowing that with his own power advantage, he'd force Yoda into protecting Obi-Wan instead of engaging him. Yoda going in alone means Yoda only has himself to worry about. |
| 176 | ** Jedi pairs performing poorly against Sith have historically been the result of one of two issues: surprise, or poor teamwork. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were both fighting the first Sith that the Jedi Order had encountered in a long time. Plus Obi-Wan was at the time almost as hot-headed as Anakin would later be. Which was the issue in both fights with Dooku. Anakin does ''not'' fight well in partnership, he grandstands too much. Mace Windu and the other three Masters were simply taken by surprise at how powerful and aggressive Palpatine's fighting style was. He only needed to leave Windu alive long enough for Anakin to arrive and "rescue" him. But, Yoda is much more level-headed, and Obi-Wan is much more deferential to Yoda. Palpatine almost certainly would try to attack Obi-Wan first. But remember that at the time Yoda was a ''staunch'' advocate of Jedi not letting their emotions get in the way of their duties. It is doubtful that given just how dire the situation was that he would have allowed sentiment to cloud his judgment. Palpatine was now the ''actual'' ruler of the Galaxy if they failed, a ''much'' more dire concern than allowing Count Dooku to escape (in the previous film). He would have expected Obi-Wan to handle his own defense (which he proved he could do very well against General Grievous), while Yoda himself brought his full power to bear against Palpatine. Palpatine only won against Yoda because he managed to get a better handhold when their opposing power sent them both hurtling backward, whereas Yoda lost his grip and fell to the Senate floor. That was a ''really'' narrow victory, and even a slight shift in the odds would have seen Palpatine lose. |
| 177 | ** First, just because things LOOKED close doesn't mean they were close. After all, there's a reason Yoda retreated instead of resuming his battle after falling off. If you've read the novelization, you know that Yoda was actually barely keeping up with Palpatine (who wasn't really trying until the very end of the fight). Yoda realized that he was simply overpowered and needed to retreat while he still could. Second, Obi-Wan would be useless against Palpatine. Obi-Wan, while a highly skilled warrior, almost exclusively uses a defensive style of combat (Form III, I think?), meaning he would be useless in what amounts to an assassination mission. Against a skilled Sith, Obi-Wan's battle strategies essentially amounted to catch him off guard with speed or survive the battle long enough to tire out the opponent and wait until they make an error. Against normal Sith, this strategy might eventually work, but a) relying on PALPATINE making a mistake is a serious gamble, and b) Palpatine's mastery of the Force makes it likely he would just incapacitate Kenobi that way (just like Dooku in their rematch). And third, having two highly skilled Jedi against one highly skilled Sith doesn't really mean much, as we've seen throughout the series. True, chemistry issues were what caused most of the other team ups to fail, but we saw that Anakin (who, like him or hate him, was at the highest level of lightsaber combat proficiency) and Obi-Wan, two warriors who had been fighting alongside one another for years, were not able to effectively challenge Count Dooku, who is far weaker than Palpatine. There seems to be a law of diminishing returns in lightsaber duels - two on one often seems to be a hindrance more than an aid. |
| 178 | ** Furthermore, Palpatine sensed Vader being in danger on Coruscant- if Yoda and Obi-Wan had teamed up against Vader, Palpatine might've sensed the danger earlier, come to help his apprentice, and then it'd either be two against two, or a tired Obi-Wan and Yoda against a fresh Palpatine. Yoda's going in against Palpatine may well have been a XanatosGambit- if he wins, great, but if not, at least Obi-Wan has the time to engage and beat Vader. |
| 179 | |
| 180 | [[/folder]] |
| 181 | |
| 182 | [[folder:Mask and wounds]] |
| 183 | |
| 184 | * Darth Vader is being treated by the medical droids, and his transformation into the masked, be-armored Dark Lord is almost complete. His mask is put onto his face, still covered with open wounds. Shouldn't they let it heal first, or at least clean it or somehow bandage it up before attaching the helmet? |
| 185 | ** He's being treated by droids under the supervision of a Sith Lord. Making it as unpleasant as possible may be by design. |
| 186 | ** Darth Sidious did that on purpose, he felt that if he made the surgical process of getting Vader into that suit as painful as possible then Vader could draw on that as a means to strengthen his connection to the Dark Side. For goodness' sake Vader didn't even have anesthesia during the surgery so he felt everything that the surgical droids did to his body, I doubt having the armor applied to his skin while it wasn't fully healed mattered much to Vader's master. |
| 187 | ** Exactly. Remember how he screamed when the droid simply removed part of his clothing from his burnt skin? Imagine that, except they have to ''cut into him'' in order to fix his lungs, etc. For seven long days (check Wookipedia, Darth Vader's Armor). Vader would be awake for the entire procedure. |
| 188 | |
| 189 | [[/folder]] |
| 190 | |
| 191 | [[folder:''Hand'''s bridge]] |
| 192 | |
| 193 | * If you thought the bridge on the ''Executor'' was bad, how about the bridge on General Grievous' ship, the ''Invisible Hand''? ''Executor'''s bridge may have been exposed, but at least it was exposed on one side only. The ''Hand's'' bridge was exposed on all sides, almost all of which were windows, and it was sticking out like a sore thumb-while laser blasts were blowing holes all over the ship. Why weren't the clones aiming for it, anyway? |
| 194 | ** Shields. The end. |
| 195 | ** Not that hard to get past Star Wars shields. |
| 196 | ** For all they know the Chancellor might be held on the bridge, which would be one hell of an incentive to '''not''' fire on it. Hell, even if he isn't, taking it out will cause the ship to collapse into Coruscant's atmosphere and cause all kinds of woes. They had to at least ensure his safety first before trying that option. |
| 197 | |
| 198 | [[/folder]] |
| 199 | |
| 200 | [[folder:Yoda's logic on death]] |
| 201 | |
| 202 | * So, according to Yoda, I'm supposed to be happy and cheerful in the event a loved one died? I'm suppose to just forget about them? If I told this to someone who was genuinely afraid of a loved one dying, I'd deserve every last beating they give me. |
| 203 | ** People who die become one with the force and their bodies return to nature. Yoda wasn't saying to ''enjoy'' death, but not to see it as the end of the world either- simply as a natural and at times unavoidable part of nature, to be accepted and come to terms with. |
| 204 | ** You don't exist in a setting where you can actively converse with your loved ones if you're Force-sensitive, bro. |
| 205 | ** I also think the implication of Yoda's statement is that while the Jedi may strive to save lives, they don't believe in unnaturally extending life with the power of the Force. ---- |
| 206 | *** What does that even mean? It's clearly fine to try and extend Padme's life with medical technology; why would it be wrong for Anakin to try and do that with the Force? |
| 207 | ** The idea that you shouldn't mourn death is actually something common in Buddhism. Monks specifically urge families to not be sad so they don't interfere with the soul moving on. Yoda probably was trying to remind Anakin that death is part of being alive. Of course he did it in a rather stupid fashion that makes one wonder just how 'wise' he really is, but that's another matter. |
| 208 | ** Jedi aren't supposed to not care about death, they're just supposed to accept it. Jedi are clearly shown mourning the dead any number of times... no one insists on just flushing Qui-Gon's body down a garbage chute without any further ceremony, after all. If you're feeling uncharitable towards the Jedi, you could look on it as hypocrisy, I suppose. If you're feeling more charitable, it's just that while Jedi are allowed to feel sad, they can't linger or dwell on the emotion. After all, out of the five stages of grief, only the last, acceptance, isn't something that's going to be a temptation to the Dark Side. That's pretty much why the Jedi are discouraged from having any more personal attachments than necessary. Your master dies? You're sad and maybe angry for awhile, but you can accept that. Same if your Padawan dies. But if you keep your connections to your mother, your father, you marry, you have kids, it's just more and more chances that one of those deaths could be the one you ''just can't accept'' and pushes you over the edge. |
| 209 | ** The Fridge page has a nice explanation: Yoda and the other Jedi are so insular in their culture that they can't meaningfully interact with anyone who doesn't share their value system. |
| 210 | ** It's actually really good advice, even from a real-world standpoint. Death is inevitable, so accepting it instead of rallying against it is a healthier response. Obviously, you want to stay alive when there's a good chance for it, but when your time is up, there's no reason to linger. When a loved one dies, accepting that and remembering them fondly is healthier than lamenting their absence and being angry at whatever took them. Fearing death when it is inevitable just gives it power over you, and in Anakin's case that fear is exactly what Palpatine preys on, and leads directly to what he was trying to prevent. Yoda certainly could have phrased it better, but if Anakin had taken his advice, Darth Vader never would have existed. |
| 211 | ** "Could have phrased it better" is kind of an understatement. It's not entirely Yoda's fault as Anakin isn't telling him everything, but what Anakin (who forms deep emotional connections with people) is hearing is "If they die, they die, who cares?" The problem is Yoda seems unable to grasp that Anakin might need more than generalities and Zen. The failing is not that it's terrible advice necessarily, but that Anakin is simply not in a place where he can process it that way and Yoda had absolutely no idea this is the case. Should Anakin have gotten so hung up on Padme dying that he turned to the Dark Side? Of course not. But even psychologically healthy people can't always be expected to leap straight from deep fear and anxiety to existentialist acceptance without some steps in between, and the Jedi don't seem to have any way to deal when someone can't. |
| 212 | ** In a way it all goes back to the Jedi Council's original opinion of Anakin: ''he was too old to receive training as a Jedi''. It's important to remember that the vast majority of Jedi are taught Jedi philosophy from a very young age, so they understand the need to accept death already. Anakin has had plenty of time to form attachments and to understand the non-Jedi method of dealing with hardship and loss, so the Jedi way of thinking is a foreign concept to him. Now, you could argue that they had plenty of time to make sure he understood this and came to terms with it, but you have to consider that: A) Anakin is a special case, possibly even the very first person to become a Jedi since the Jedi Order was founded that hasn't been raised on these ideals from birth, so they likely didn't consider the possibility that he would have a hard time grasping the concept; and B) that the Republic was going into a war at the time, and the Jedi Council needed to prioritize Anakin's ability to function and survive if he ever got involved in combat over his understanding of philosophy. |
| 213 | *** Going even further than that, the Jedi Council didn't give a very good explanation to him to begin with. It's okay to love family and friends and to feel a more intimate/romantic love for others, and it's even okay to get attached and to mourn for those you've lost. It's not the act of loving someone or growing attached to them that's the problem - it's not being able to let go. Rather than telling him that he shouldn't get attached or that he should just accept death, their lesson should have been more along the lines of "Feeling these things is okay, but you're a Jedi now. You need to be able to put your duty as a Jedi to work for the benefit of the universe above your personal wants." |
| 214 | ** Yoda's advice is even weirder considering what Anakin's actually telling him. Anakin's not saying that a loved one has died/is on their deathbed right this minute, he's saying he's had visions that a loved one will die. Unless I'm missing something, precognitive visions in Star Wars are of potential futures, not fixed ones. Why does Yoda go straight to "don't mourn them, don't miss them, just accept that they're dead" when Anakin's problem is specifically that he's scared Padme might die in the near future? Wouldn't better advice be "warn this person, have your mutual friends keep an eye on them, make sure they don't go to a lava planet far away from any hospitals"? Why is Yoda so fatalistic? |
| 215 | ** It's because Yoda probably thinks that Anakin is just dealing with some unsettling dreams that are throwing him off and not something more serious. Anakin hid the story of the visions of his mother and her death from the Council because that story ends with him butchering the Sand People in a bloodrage. Obi-Wan and Anakin have a similar discussion in Episode II. Both of his teachers think he's just dealing with dreams and we know from real life that we can have disturbing dreams that have no basis in reality. Yoda is being blunt in this case, because he feels Anakin is probably just having the heebie jeebies over some vague dreams about a close friend. There's not much else he can tell him since Anakin is being so evasive about the real problem. |
| 216 | ** If one considers the novelization to be canon, then it is clear that Yoda is completely straightforward in his advice. He is basically telling Anakin that losing important people is normal, and that a Jedi's way of dealing with it is simply to LET IT GO. Let go of this attachement, let go of the pain, and basically accept with blind faith that it will happen for a reason, because "that is the will of the force". There are actually a lot of moment where we are privy to Obi-Wan's insights, who is referred to as the "ultimate jedi". And honestly, it can be a bit chilling. There are no moment where Obi-Wan is truly afraid, because he blindly trusts the Force to be by his side. Any time he might experience griefs, or despair, or whenever he has to make tough choices, Obi-Wan accepts it, and simply "lets go" of whatever attachement he might have. He feels grief for Qui-Gon's death. He let that go and it does not bother him anymore. He is sad because his mount died due to Order 66. He allows himself to feel sad for a moment, and then slaps himself mentally that grief and sadness are unbecoming for a jedi, and accept it. He straight up tells Yoda that even though he considers him almost as a parent, if needs be, he will straight up kill him, if that happens to be his duty to the Force. Much of the novel is about how Obi-Wan and Anakin are basically brothers, two halves of the same coin; Palpatine's genius last stroke was sending away Obi-Wan during the hour of choice. There is even a great moment right after Dooku is killed where it becomes obvious that just Obi-Wan being at Anakin's side, not even talking is enough to put him in the right mind. Palpatine exerts a lot of his energy and words to turn Anakin right there and then, but simply carrying Obi-Wan is enough to make Anakin good, and when Palpatine tells him the truth, he knows that he NEEDS Obi-Wan. And it is completely reciprocated. This is just how strong their bond is. And yet, during their duel on Mustafar, Obi-Wan realizes that something is impeding his performance, and might cost him his life, and the soul of the Republic: he still loves Anakin. And what does he do? Anything that prevents him from executing his duty must be removed. So Obi-Wan simply LET. GO. OF. HIS. ATTACHMENT. In the end, a Jedi must be willing and able to sever even the greatest bond of the world to accomplish his duty. This is what the Jedi of the prequel trilogy were taught, how they were bred to behave and act. Anakin's failure as a Jedi can be seen even before his turn. This is also why he is the hero that he is. Unlike Obi-Wan, Mace, or Yoda, he absolutely refuses to comply to the Force. How does he land the Hand? How does he save Obi-Wan when his starfighter lost all control? By refusing to blindly follow the will of the Force. "Between his will and the Force's there is no contest". So, when Yoda is telling him to let go of his love, he is actually expecting Anakin to do it. There is no miscommunication or anything of the sort. This is a straight from the heart advice from the "venerable" Jedi master, preaching to the ChosenOne what every Jedi but him has been taught since infancy. The fact that this is actually very hard to do, a very weird way to think, and a very unusual way to deal with loved ones and death is obvious, and is in fact the very reason the Jedi council was against training Anakin. It takes almost brainwashing to do this. So Anakin's "correct" course of action should have been to prepare himself mentally that yeah Padme and their child are going to die, do whatever he can to protect them (without going overboard to unhealthy extremes) and that's it. Because in the end, everything dies, "even the stars burn out", and this is the will of the Force. At least, this is what any other Jedi would have done. |
| 217 | ** It's entirely possible that Yoda is simply giving out bad advice. The Jedi are not gods, and their culture isn't perfect. The entire prequel trilogy makes a lot more sense when you take that as given. The Jedi are heroes overall, but they made a lot of mistakes, which led to their downfall. For instance, they could have insisted on freeing Shmi and the other slaves on Tatooine, which would have been worthwhile in itself ''and'' it would have prevented Anakin's fall to the Dark Side years later. Likewise in this scene, Yoda could haven taken Anakin's feelings more seriously. He could have offered to help Anakin ''prevent'' the thing he feared instead of just passively telling him to accept it. Maybe that would have helped! Maybe if Anakin felt that the Jedi would ''actually help him'' he wouldn't have turned. Maybe he would have killed Palaptine instead of Windu when the time came. |
| 218 | |
| 219 | [[/folder]] |
| 220 | |
| 221 | [[folder:Hiding Luke on Tatooine]] |
| 222 | |
| 223 | * "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born." I kind of understand Leia being hidden, but they didn't go to too much trouble with Luke really, did they? He's living on his fathers home planet, with his family, in their old homestead. His surname hasn't even been changed! |
| 224 | ** Well, would ''you'' think to look there? |
| 225 | ** More seriously, its been stated that Vader is incapable of going to Tatooine in person now (it brings his heart rate up too much for the suit to be able to handle), and he's the only one who'd really like to FIND the kid(s), if they're still alive. The Emperor may have, and probably did, know from Stormtrooper investigations, but kept it from Vader to keep Vader's angst/despair/hopelessness levels, and thus controllability, at maximum. |
| 226 | ** Owen is Anakin's stepbrother whom he met once, lives on a planet Anakin couldn't wait to get off of, in a place Anakin never lived. If the Emperor even thought of looking up people who might be guarding Anakin's children, Owen might not even be on the ''list''. I doubt Vader ever wanted to even think about the time he met Owen, considering what else happened during that trip. |
| 227 | ** Maybe Skywalker is a really, really common name. One common enough not to raise a flag with the Empire until one Skywalker demonstrated great control of the Force and blew up the Death Star. |
| 228 | * It's ''Yoda'' who suggests hiding Luke on Tatooine, with his family. Except that, one of the commonly cited reasons for Jedi falling to the Dark Side (whether this is fair or not) is dependence on family. Specifically, Anakin's attachment to his mother and later his wife was crucial to his StartOfDarkness. This is why the Jedi have traditionally taken children shortly after birth for training. Yoda clearly believes this, because he made such a fuss about Anakin being too old and attached to his mother. Why then is he all of a sudden suggesting sending Luke into that essentially the exact same environment that Anakin came from if he believes that was the root cause of him turning evil. If Luke really is their last hope for the galaxy, wouldn't the sensible thing to do, according to traditional Jedi beliefs, be to take him to Dagobah and raise him in the Jedi tradition? Once could argue that Yoda's done a 180 on this because he recognized that it was the rigid Jedi code, and not being too old or attached, that caused Anakin's fall, but then in ''The Empire Strikes Back'' he says that Luke is too old for Jedi training. What makes this even more ridiculous is that the reason that Luke couldn't start training earlier is because of Yoda's very own idea to send him to Tatooine in the first place! |
| 229 | ** You had it exactly right, it was the rigid, inflexible, stultifying rules of the Jedi that drove Anakin to the Dark Side, not necessarily his attachments. More than that, the novelization explains that Yoda realizes, during his duel with Sidious, that the Old Jedi just don't have what it takes to defeat the New Sith. A New kind of Jedi would be needed. Also in the novel, Obi-Wan suggests taking Luke with him, training him from birth as Anakin ''should'' have been trained, and Yoda shoots down that idea, because all that would result is another dogmatic Old Jedi who Vader and Palpatine would wipe the floor with. In letting Luke grow up (mostly) normally, letting him experience feelings of love and loss, and when he's ready letting the Force bring him to them, they create the ''only'' Jedi who could have defeated Vader. Because Luke has feelings for his father, Luke believes he can be saved, and he's absolutely right. A Jedi who only saw Darth Vader as an opponent to be defeated never could have beaten him. Luke, seeing him as a father he wants to love and redeem, utterly destroys him. As for Yoda insisting Luke was too old for training. . . that was likely a friendly jab at Obi-Wan. Yoda does have a slightly warped sense of humor. |
| 230 | |
| 231 | [[/folder]] |
| 232 | |
| 233 | [[folder:Sidious' second lightsaber]] |
| 234 | |
| 235 | * Where does Sidious get the lightsaber he uses against Yoda from? Mace Windu kicked it out a high-story window onto the streets of Coruscant. Did somebody find it and intuit that it was Palpatine's? |
| 236 | ** Probably had a spare. Palpatine has been a Sith for decades, he had ample opportunity to create more than one while he served under Darth Plaqueis. Those buildings are '''miles''' high, it is highly improbable that the lightsaber would even survive a fall of that height or even if it did that a search effort would be made for it. |
| 237 | ** Per the novelization, he did indeed have a spare. |
| 238 | ** Which just raises more questions as, apparently, Palpatine hid the first one in a sculpture that was made around the lightsaber. Said sculpture was made from special metal to hide the saber from scans and was heavy enough that his office floor had to be reinforced to hold it. If he went through all that to hide one, where/why would he have another? |
| 239 | ** He went through all that to hide one ''in his office''. He probably wouldn't have needed to go to such extents in other places. "Hey, Bob, run home to my personal armory and get my spare Sithsaber out of the safe, would you? Thanks." |
| 240 | ** ''The Clone Wars'' establishes that Sidious had a penchant for DualWielding just in case. |
| 241 | |
| 242 | [[/folder]] |
| 243 | |
| 244 | [[folder:Duel on Mustafar]] |
| 245 | |
| 246 | * There's one thing that I don't understand about duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan on Mustafar. I get that they're fighting on equal terms because Obi-Wan uses the defensive style AND he knows the style of Anakin very well, having trained with him for the past 10 years. What I don't get is the part they use the Force against each other. Anakin had "exceptional skills" before he was a full fledged Jedi. Since then, his skills doubled, he defeated Count Dooku, became "a far greater Jedi than [Obi-Wan]could ever hope to be. He was the Chosen One, the potentially greatest Force user ever, one of the best there was, even if still inexperienced. So, it would be most logical to assume that, even if he doesn't have the years of experience like Obi-Wan, his connection to the Force and therefore it's use is greater. So, during the duel, they're trying to Force push each other: a very Powerful Jedi and the more Powerful Sith, who now became even stronger due to the Dark Side, who's very angry, boosting the Dark Side powers even more and what happens? The struggle ends on equal terms, they both push each other with the same amount of Force. How does that happen? Does that mean that Obi-Wan was a far greater Force User before Anakin's turn? Everything implies that he has long surpassed his master, but if he couldn't best him even with his Dark Side powers, he would be much weaker than him while he was still on the Light Side, wouldn't he? And experience doesn't play a role here - it's a basic power - you use the Force to push someone. Nothing that needs you to be wise or something like that. |
| 247 | ** He's also ''extremely'' emotionally conflicted and unbalanced at that point. One might imagine that putting a damper on his Force power (since both Light and Dark Side users require some sort of concentration to pull off their effects). |
| 248 | ** Theoretical answer that could work in tune with the above answer: Obi-Wan is using the Dark Side. He is ''really pissed'' at Anakin and he's letting that feed his Force usage. It would actually jive with things we see in ''The Phantom Menace'' and his eventual decision to live passively in exile. In ''The Phantom Menace'', Darth Maul is very obviously the much superior duelist, besting Qui-Gon through purely martial skill and having previously held off Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon simultaneously. It's not until Obi-Wan sees his master killed and rushes Maul to attack furiously that he's anything like a match for him, and you can see the anger on his face towards the end of the duel when he pulls off some Force tricks. After his fight with Anakin Obi-Wan probably reflected on his life and realized just how close he'd come to falling, himself, and realized that if he continued to throw himself into battle he'd probably be lost to the Dark Side too. So he goes into exile, trains Luke, and ultimately rather than putting his all into a fight against Vader and the Stormtroopers, he surrenders peacefully to death once his fighting has served its purpose. |
| 249 | ** Occam's Razor answer: we've never seen a pair of Force pushes come into opposition before (at least not in the movies). The duelists are in very close contact. It could well be that any Force Pushes will cancel each other out, until "eventually the air-pocket compressed by the combined Force pushes ruptured and exploded" (from Wookieepedia). Until that point, it's like holding North-North ends of magnets together- the relative force exerted by the magnet/Force user doesn't matter, just that the act of putting them into conflict cancels each other out. |
| 250 | ** The Dark Side isn't more powerful. Anyone who tells you so is deluded.[[note]]Another troper; more specifically, it is ''easier'', not stronger.[[/note]] The whole point of the fight is that Anakin and Obi-Wan are completely equally matched, even to the point where their Force powers cancel each other out. Obi-Wan's strength comes from his clarity and centeredness as a Jedi, Anakin's comes from his rage and hate as a Sith, but both powers are perfectly equal. |
| 251 | ** It should be noted that while both combatants were blasted away by the Force Push, Anakin recovered from the effect far faster than Obi-Wan did, having already crossed the room and gone swinging his lightsaber at his former Master in the time it took Obi-Wan to bring his guard back up. So it does look like Obi-Wan took the brunt of that Force Push. |
| 252 | |
| 253 | * Regarding the way that Obi-Wan beat Anakin at the shores of that lava river on Mustafar. Not so much that he was able to dismember his limbs (ironically being able to cut off legs is easier when you are the same level as your opponent, but not impossible) thanks to Anakin jumping directly over him, especially since Obi-Wan is supposed to the best user of Form III in Galactic history which is a defensive lightsaber technique that focuses on waiting out your opponent until they expose an opening for you to strike at and Anakin's jump was just such an opening, but my problem is that the moment Obi-Wan jumped on the shore and took the high ground he acted like Anakin had no other option but to accept defeat and that there WAS NO WAY THAT HE COULD CONTINUE. Anakin had a few options outside of just letting that vehicle float further down the lava stream and make a tactical retreat, he could have used a Force push and then jump, use Force lightning (something he is portrayed as being able to use in some other stories), throw a lightsaber, jump to another side of the shore and run up the shore, or you know jump WAY OVER Obi-Wan's head so he can land safely behind him and then drive him down against the lava bank. What makes it even worse is that not some 14 years ago Obi-Wan did not have the advantage of the high ground against Maul who did have the high ground advantage against him and is able to cut him in half despite his disadvantage, the high ground only matters when Obi-Wan has it which makes it sound like Obi-Wan won simply because the plot demanded it. Sure you can say that in both cases Maul and Anakin were defeated by their own arrogance but just because a Sith becomes angry and is over-confident in his skills shouldn't mean that his cognitive abilities needed to form strategies is going to be compromised, Maul should have been quite capable of cutting Obi-Wan into pieces as he jumped up to land on solid ground and Anakin should have been able to find alternatives to jumping directly over Obi-Wan's head (which by the way as shown in one alternative ending as a risky 50/50 move that could have spelled defeat for either warrior as Anakin is shown impaling Obi-Wan through the chest when he manages to land, Obi-Wan was just able to strike first canonically speaking) regardless of any overconfidence that both of them had, and especially when both Sith warriors were able to dominate Obi-Wan for the majority of their respective battles. |
| 254 | ** The idea is that Anakin personally has a particular weakness when it comes to height differences in battle. Also Obi-Wan was likely reading Anakin's body language and could see he was preparing to leap. Remember he knows Anakin's battle style inside and out. He knows exactly what Anakin is about to try and do and he knows exactly how to counter it and he knows Anakin isn't going to to think of anything else because he's so impulsive. |
| 255 | ** I understand that Obi-Wan knew Anakin's style inside and out as the novelization of Episode III says that they have thousands of hours of training between the two of them where they have been sparring for well over a decade together with their lightsabers. It is thanks to this factor that allows both of them to fight for as long as they did without either of them being able to make a decisive blow, they knew how to counter each other, but as you see during the battle Obi-Wan is visibly starting to get tired and he knows that he can't wait Anakin out and so he decides to retreat to the high ground. Now where it gets bad for Anakin is that he is a very arrogant and impulsive person, but the Expanded Universe has shown Anakin in the Clone Wars as being an expert strategist and one of the best lightsaber duelists in the Galaxy being said to be on the same tier as Yoda (Yoda's Force power was still superior regardless). I just thought it was stupid that his anger at Obi-Wan for quote, "Underestimating his power", blinded him to the degree that it cost him the duel when he otherwise should have been capable of winning. How did the Sith last as long as they did if they are so impulsive in battle? |
| 256 | *** I think in this situation Anakin was in an unusually high emotional state. He thinks his wife and best friend have been working together to kill him, the Jedi, in his mind, have been revealed as traitors, he's probably still reeling from all the terrible things he's done. He's simply in a state of mind where he's not thinking as clearly as he would have been during the Clone Wars. |
| 257 | *** Consider the fact that the "Rule of Two" exists because the Sith were so emotionally compromised and reckless that they literally wiped themselves out down to one guy. The Sith are thought to be extinct for a long time, and Darth Maul was the first Sith the Order had encountered in that time. Also note that Palpatine almost succeeded in turning Luke to the Dark Side (after Luke's Dark Side-fueled frenzy attack) until his emotions got the best of him and got Luke to snap out of it. I think it's safe to say utter abandon is an inherent hazard of being a Sith. |
| 258 | ** I think that what Obi-Wan is doing is deliberately taunting Anakin by speaking as though he somehow wouldn't have a chance from the low ground (Damn is the typing slow when the page is this long!). It's like if you and I were in a martial arts fight, and you were already on the verge of a blind rage, and all I had to do is say, "Come on, now, you know there's no way you're going to win this fight now, attacking from that stance!" for you to go over the edge and lose control of your technique, allowing me to take you down. |
| 259 | ** One theory that regularly comes up in the "high ground" debate is that it's precisely because of the way Obi-Wan defeated Darth Maul that the high ground is such an advantage to him later. When you're in a fight, not only are you planning your own moves, but you have to try and anticipate the moves of your opponent. When Obi-Wan was facing off against Darth Maul and trying to work out how to get back up onto the landing, no doubt he saw a scenario where Darth Maul reacted more quickly and killed him when he was jumping over his head. In Obi-Wan's position though, he literally had no other options to take, and luckily for him the Force-jump worked and he won the fight. However, he is then aware of a scenario where that ''wouldn't'' work and was able to counter Anakin's attack using that knowledge. Also, having the higher ground in a fight ''does'' give you an undeniable advantage. Except from maybe a Force-push from Anakin that would knock Obi-Wan off balance, there was pretty much no other way that fight could end from their current positions other than the way it did. |
| 260 | [[/folder]] |
| 261 | |
| 262 | [[folder:Windu and Anakin]] |
| 263 | |
| 264 | * Why did Windu decide to hold the Idiot Ball/Jerkass Ball so tightly in this one? In [=AotC=], he's the one who defends Anakin from Obi-Wan's concerns. And that was when he acted as an arrogant, wangsty teenager. In [=RotS=], Anakin became much stronger, more levelheaded, respectful to his master, acts much less arrogant and clearly matured. And now Mace Windu decides to antagonize him, don't trust him and question him being the one. Had he not acted like such a Jerk, Anakin wouldn't stop trusting the Jedi. So, Basically, WhatTheHellHero, Windu? |
| 265 | ** Yoda does give Windu a brief WhatTheHellHero reaction when the latter starts talking about handpicking a new, more Jedi-friendly senate after they've taken down Palpatine. There's an implication that the strain of the war was getting to Mace and making him a little edgier and quicker to react with anger, which would explain why he was more patient with Anakin in the second movie, when the Clone Wars were only starting. |
| 266 | ** You forgot that Windu is [[NiceJobBreakingItHero the one who ultimately pushes Anakin over the edge into falling]]. Anakin is pleading with Windu to do the right thing by Jedi philosophy, even if for the wrong reasons, but Windu insists he's going to kill Palpatine ''right then and there'', Jedi principles be damned. I guess we were getting a Sith out of that scene one way or the other. |
| 267 | ** It's canonical that Mace Windu's style of using the Force in combat would have eventually driven him to the Dark Side, and I imagine he was using it a lot during that whole civil war. |
| 268 | ** In Windu's defense, he actually had a fair point. Sidious had just killed several skilled and powerful Jedi without breaking a sweat. Be kinda hard for a Republic prison cell to hold him for long. Not to mention the man's more mundane, but equally dangerous sliver tongue had already managed to make him one of the most politically powerful people in the galaxy. In fact, about the only thing that Windu did wrong in his confrontation with Sidious was not take along an active recording device. [[EngineeredPublicConfession Then he could have just let the Sith Lord jabber on to all the people of the Republic]]. |
| 269 | *** And in the novelization, this is ''exactly'' what Palpatine does! |
| 270 | * On a related note, when going to confront Palpatine, Mace Windu refuses to bring Anakin. Regardless of Anakin's mental state, if you're going to try to destroy the last Sith (or going into a confrontation where you may have to), wouldn't it make sense to bring the guy prophesied to do just that? |
| 271 | ** At this point, most of the Jedi Council is not fully convinced that Anakin is the chosen one. Anakin's own mental confusion is probably reinforcing Mace's own belief that he might not be the one destined to destroy the Sith. |
| 272 | *** In addition, Anakin was not a fit mental state to be of much use in any battle (what with him believing Palpatine could save Padme and all), plus the prophecy is open to interpretation. It's possible that Mace saw Anakin's role in destroying the Sith simply as being the one to figure out who the Sith Lord was. While he wouldn't have delivered the killing blow personally, he would have been the catalyst that have led to the end of the Sith. |
| 273 | *** Exactly. At this moment Anakin has almost a mental breakdown when he understands that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, and is terrified and confused. Windu, as a Force-user, is able to fully understand Anakin's state of mind at this moment. As the novel states, he calmly weighs the risks of going against a Sith Lord master without the Chosen One, and the risks of going against a Dark Force user with a Chosen One eaten by fear. Of course, Anakin is to stay. And really, if one goes with how it went once Anakin got to the place, his initial decision was spot-on. |
| 274 | |
| 275 | [[/folder]] |
| 276 | |
| 277 | [[folder:Sidious and his Force Lightning]] |
| 278 | |
| 279 | * When Sidious got hit by his own force lightning, why wasn't he seriously injured or killed? |
| 280 | ** Force lightning doesn't kill or inflict permanent injuries immediately- it mostly causes extreme pain and kills slowly, and Sidious didn't keep it up long enough to be lethal. Besides, it's ''his'' lightning- it's entirely possible that he is more resistant to his own power than someone else would be, though that's just WMG. He gets a face-full of his own lightning again in [=RotJ=] and it doesn't kill him or do any visible damage, after all. |
| 281 | ** If you mean the arrest scene, then I'm pretty sure the lighting horribly disfigured him and had almost killed him if Anakin didn't intervene. |
| 282 | ** He was disfigured, yes, but I don't think it was anywhere close to lethal- he was playing weak so he could blast Windu when he wasn't paying attention, and Anakin gave him the opening. The power he brings to bear then, and the way he comports himself in the subsequent scene, suggest he's largely fine, apart from the disfigurements. |
| 283 | ** It's also possible the disfigurements were already there, a sign of his Dark Side corruption, and the kindly old man guise was simply an illusion he was creating with the Dark Side. The lightning just wound up peeling it away, and then he thought "Hey, I can ''use'' this...!" |
| 284 | |
| 285 | [[/folder]] |
| 286 | |
| 287 | [[folder:Balcony]] |
| 288 | |
| 289 | * After Obi-Wan was knocked unconscious by Dooku on the Invisible Hand, Dooku caused a balcony to collapse on his legs. Shouldn't that have crushed Obi-Wan's legs? Or was the balcony made of very light material? |
| 290 | ** Given the lack of bodily damage to Obi-Wan, it seems more likely that Dooku simply moved the balcony to pin his legs, holding him in place so that if he woke up, he would have to free himself before he could rejoin the fight. |
| 291 | *** Yeah, I'd file that one under SpecialEffectsFailure. It certainly looks like Obi-Wan should have been seriously injured, if not completely losing his legs, from that. But he's up and walking fine ten minutes later without even a twinging ankle. |
| 292 | ** In the novelization, Dooku does hope the balcony broke a few of Obi-Wan's bones, but he's too engaged in fighting Anakin to do the job properly. |
| 293 | ** Human Jedi are made of much tougher material than normal humans. Obi-Wan fell nearly two stories onto a metal catwalk in Phantom Menace during his fight with Maul and just got right back up like nothing happened, was blasted around by Jango's missile in Attack of the Clones, and later in the film handled a massive fall when he got shot off a cliff on Utapau. It'll take more than a balcony falling on him to do any real damage to Kenobi. |
| 294 | |
| 295 | [[/folder]] |
| 296 | |
| 297 | [[folder:Jedi and Anakin's marriage]] |
| 298 | |
| 299 | * Do any Jedi know that Anakin is married? Yoda doesn't seem to know about it when Anakin consults him alone, even though Anakin is very obviously worried sick about Padmé and his children. There is the war, but Anakin is also bad at hiding his emotions from other Jedi: notably, they could always tell when he was thinking of his mother. |
| 300 | ** Technically none of the Jedi know. Obi-Wan suspects a relationship, but pretends he has no clue. He does not suspect just how far things have gone, though. |
| 301 | ** In the novel, when Anakin consults Yoda, and Yoda probingly asks if these premonitions are about someone close to Anakin, Anakin lets Yoda believe he's talking about Obi-Wan. Yoda was wise enough to know that Anakin's deep-seated fears were related to someone else, but the Jedi as a whole were blind enough by this point that no one (except Obi-Wan, through normal deductive reasoning), suspected that Anakin and Padme had any kind of serious relationship. If you believe WordOfGod, that Jedi are forbidden from attachments but allowed to have casual sex, they may have suspected that Anakin was sneaking away to "lightsaber duel" with Padme whenever he got the chance, but not that they were emotionally involved. This highlights a great failing of the old Jedi Order: they were completely reliant on the Force. As the "shroud of the Dark Side" began to cloud their ability to use it for everything, they had no normal skills to fall back on, which left them firmly clutching the IdiotBall. |
| 302 | ** There's also the fact that Anakin was never very close to the other Jedi aside from Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, the latter of whom has left the order by this point. As such, Obi-Wan is probably the only one in the Order who knows Anakin well enough to realize what's happening, anyway. |
| 303 | ** In the novel, Obi-Wan knows that there's ''something'' going on between Anakin and Padmé, but he doesn't know how deep it goes because he chooses not to pry. |
| 304 | |
| 305 | [[/folder]] |
| 306 | |
| 307 | [[folder:Lightning absorbed/reflected]] |
| 308 | |
| 309 | * In Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan uses his lightsaber to block Dooku's force lightning, and the lightsaber just absorbs the lightning. In Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu does the same to Palpatine's lightning, and the lightning is turned against Palpatine. Why? |
| 310 | ** Might be a combination of factors. Mace was right in Palpatine's face while Dooku was a fair ways back from Obi-Wan. Mace is supposedly more powerful than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan didn't roll high enough on that one particular Use the Force check (TabletopGame/StarWarsSagaEdition joke, to reflect a power, you need to beat the check by a certain amount). Obi-Wan might not have wanted to as Obi-Wan's combat style is supposedly much less aggressive than Mace Windu's style. Dooku was Obi-Wan's master's master so he might have hoped to talk him down which is hard to do when you just zapped him in the face with Force Lightning while Palpatine was pretty much evil incarnate so Mace spared him no such mercy. |
| 311 | ** It is a matter of style--Obi-Wan's fighting style is primarily defensive, so naturally when he stops Force Lightning, he's just going to stop it. Mace's style, however, is aggressive, and in part, as I understand it, edges toward the Dark Side in that he fights better because he lets himself enjoy the fight--ergo, even when he is defending, he's doing so aggressively. |
| 312 | ** There's also the chance that Palpatine may have intentionally made it disfigure him for more sympathy points. |
| 313 | ** It's more than "a chance", that's what actually happened. Watch it again: when Mace was attacking Palpatine, he was begging Anakin for his help, pretending to be a frail old man about to be executed by a Jedi (and, as a bonus, the alleged knowledge for saving Padme would be lost if he died). As soon as Anakin crossed the MoralEventHorizon, RedEyesTakeWarning: Palpatine showed his real power level and swiftly executed Mace Windu. He also took advantage of his scars later when he convinced the Senate to make him a dictator. |
| 314 | ** Palpatine is presumably also a lot more powerful than Dooku, and was capable of putting out a lot more energy than a lightsaber could simply absorb. |
| 315 | ** The novelization advances the theory that Mace Windu's lightsaber form (Vapaad) treds so close to the Dark Side that it actually draws on it, feeding the user's strength from their enemy's. When Mace Windu blocked Palpatine's Sith Lightning using Vapaad, a "circuit" in the Dark Side was completed, and the energy just cycled between them. Mace Windu is Jedi enough to let the Dark Side pass through him without touching him; Palpatine is not. |
| 316 | ** Palpatine also keeps the stream up for far longer than Dooku. |
| 317 | |
| 318 | [[/folder]] |
| 319 | |
| 320 | [[folder:The births]] |
| 321 | |
| 322 | * During the attempt to treat Padme, the droid says "we have to operate quickly to save the babies." (In the novelization, anyway.) It sounds like they plan to do a c-section or something. Then we see Padme go into what looks like ordinary labor. Huh? She's dying, and they make her have two babies? |
| 323 | ** They probably gave her something to induce labor sooner. Waiting for her to start naturally was risky, given she was rapidly fading. |
| 324 | ** Either way, she likely had to have a C-section if she's giving birth to twins! |
| 325 | |
| 326 | [[/folder]] |
| 327 | |
| 328 | [[folder:Anaesthetic]] |
| 329 | |
| 330 | * Why does Palpatine not give Anakin any anesthetic when turning him into Vader? I know he'd [[ForTheEvulz get a kick out of it]], but practically this isn't exactly a good idea: [[FridgeHorror considering merely peeling off cloth is completely agonizing]], doing such extensive surgery could cause Vader to die from shock due to overwhelming pain. Even if it doesn't kill him, there's a good chance Vader will end up completely insane and not very useful. Palpatine may be an utter psychopath, but he should know [[PragmaticVillainy not to do so if it gambles away his second-in-command.]] |
| 331 | ** If Vader goes insane and has to be put down like a dog then Palpatine will simply get a new second in command. He'd probably got a new proto-apprentice stuffed away somewhere for just that eventuality. He can get a new apprentice and there are plenty of loyal officers he can use meantime. It makes you wonder if Tarkin had a spark of Force Ability in him, his behavior in ''Episode 4'' would certainly fit with someone that Palpatine was grooming as a new Darth. However, Palpatine ''always'' has a back up plan. |
| 332 | ** Palpatine believed that all that agony Anakin/Vader endured to be put in that suit would make him very strong in the Dark Side. Besides, the guy's a dick, and he'll watch someone suffer for the lulz even if in all practical sense, it is wholly illogical. Besides, Palpatine never is without a backup in case Plan A went sour. |
| 333 | ** And the pain thing is effectively confirmed in ''The Force Awakens'', where we see Ren aggravating his wound in order to draw on the dark side. |
| 334 | |
| 335 | [[/folder]] |
| 336 | |
| 337 | [[folder:Telling Anakin about killing his master]] |
| 338 | |
| 339 | * Palpatine tells Anakin the story of his former master. He tells him the apprentice killed his master in his sleep. Here's the headscratcher.....why would he give Anakin ideas? Was Palpatine suicidal? Why even tell him that story? |
| 340 | ** Sith tradition. Gives the student incentive to try hard, and a master that falls for it didn't deserve to hold power anyway. |
| 341 | ** A previous entry on this very page also mentions that Palpatine, having offed Plagueis this way, knows better than to sleep. The ''Revenge of the Sith'' novelization mentions that Anakin is using the Force to keep himself going without sleep to escape his nightmares, presumably Palpatine uses the Force the same way to never give Anakin the opportunity to catch him off-guard. As for why he told Anakin the story, the entire point was to entice Anakin towards the Dark Side by suggesting that only a Sith had the power to save Padme. Why not use the story of your own master to do so? If the question was why he told Anakin how Plagueis was killed, both the previous reply and the point about him learning from how he killed Plagueis suggests he didn't see any harm in it, and might even have considered it beneficial. |
| 342 | ** A lesson of the Plagueis story isn't just "the Sith can cheat death", it's "don't teach your apprentice absolutely everything". Palpatine knows that he just has to keep Anakin hungry for more secrets and his apprentice will stay his hand. |
| 343 | [[/folder]] |
| 344 | |
| 345 | [[folder:Sidious' bait]] |
| 346 | |
| 347 | * Why were the Jedi so quick to take Sidious's bait? As shown in the novelization, they had pretty much no hard evidence against Palpatine (other than the word of the emotionally unstable Skywalker) for being a Sith Lord at all; in fact, just being a Sith Lord is not a crime, because of the Constitution. Why weren't the Jedi more cautious and patient in gathering evidence? In the novel that takes place right before ROTS ''Labyrinth of Evil'' (LOE), they had managed to track Darth Sidious to the [=LiMerge=] Power building in the Works and then to the basement of 500 Republica, so they had evidence he was one of the elite. The only problem was that the investigation was kinda cut short by the Battle of Coruscant, but the Jedi did leave one techie down there to continue the investigation into Darth Sidious's identity in the basement of 500 Republica. (As you might know, that techie would actually encounter Darth Sidious and see his true identity, just before he died.) Why didn't the Jedi ever ask, {{What Happened to the Mouse}}, and try to pick up from where they left off? As for removing Palpatine from office, which they were planning to do anyway after the death of Grievous, even before the Jedi knew he was a Sith Lord, why did they have to confront the Chancellor personally? Couldn't they have played some PR of their own, instead of playing right into a Sith Lord's PR Campaign, saying that because Dooku and Grievous are dead and the war is winding down Palpatine doesn't need all those emergency powers anymore and plus he's served way past his term limit, putting pressure on the Senate to take back their authority and perhaps finally give Palpatine his dismissal and elect an Interim Chancellor to prosecute the end of the war, citing the interests of democracy and republicanism? I guess, though, PR campaigns are not the Jedi's strong suit. |
| 348 | ** Do not assume that any EU work has any particular impact on the movie canon, since before Star Wars was sold to Disney, GL repeatedly said he considered the EU a parallel universe, and Disney flat out stated that they weren't necessarily bound by the EU. Second, while being a Sith Lord wasn't against the constitution, being someone who orchestrates a massive civil war that kills billions probably is, and they generally connected "Sith Lord" with "guy who does that sort of stuff". |
| 349 | ** Those are two independent problems that got mixed in a single man, but each problem has its own context. One thing is a Chancellor with dictatorial powers, Sith or no Sith that ''is'' a problem, and they were dealing with it... having the law and procedure in mind, which takes its time. A Sith Lord revealed is another problem in itself. It does not matter if legally it is a crime or not, it is a threat, a matter for Jedi, and must be dealt with immediately. And they ''knew'' that there was a Sith Lord around since Episode I, now they have a name and address. If Osama Bin Laden was [[VillainsOutShopping out shopping]], would you wait to capture him once he has done the shopping? |
| 350 | ** The novelization says that Mace knew Anakin was telling the truth through the Force. Seeing the "shatterpoints" of the universe, he saw that Anakin had become a shatterpoint to ''everything in existence'' in that moment, so he knew that whatever Anakin told him must be a massive revelation indeed. |
| 351 | ** In addition, Palpatine knows that Anakin is going to tell the Jedi, ''and'' he just took direct political control of the Order earlier in the film. For the Jedi, a Sith Lord with political control of the Order and an entire army at his disposal is incredible NightmareFuel. They ''need'' to move fast, or else he'll move on them. |
| 352 | ** Not sure where you are getting the idea that being a Sith Lord "isn't a crime". It is not firmly established that being a Sith is illegal, but it's entirely possible that it ''is''; and even if it isn't, based on the history of the galaxy (vague in the movies but the lore for the novelization at least firmly establishes that the Sith were responsible for ''every major galactic war in the previous 5,000 years'') and the nature of the Sith themselves (which amounts to "We deserve to rule the galaxy and wield ultimate power and kill whoever we want to do so") there is a 100% chance that anyone who is a Sith Lord is deeply involved in highly illegal activities, which amounts to much the same thing. It's like uncovering that the President has secretly been a member of Al-Qaeda or The Mafia this whole time- it is a crime in and of itself and it implicates you in much, much worse. You could argue that the films don't explain enough about the Sith to make this claim, but on the flip-side this very ambiguity means that the Sith very well ''could'' be regarded as a criminal organization and we just aren't clarified on it. |
| 353 | |
| 354 | [[/folder]] |
| 355 | |
| 356 | [[folder:Emperor's symbol]] |
| 357 | |
| 358 | * When the Emperor gave his Declaration of a New Order, what was that symbol he wore on his front, of which there were 3 arranged vertically? |
| 359 | ** According to Wookieepedia, they're Sith symbols. Due to how old they were, the Senate didn't know their origins. |
| 360 | |
| 361 | [[/folder]] |
| 362 | |
| 363 | [[folder:Duel in front of windows]] |
| 364 | |
| 365 | * Most of the fight between Sidious and Mace Windu takes place near windows, with visible traffic moving along without a care in the world. Especially after the window is broken you've got the purple lightsaber and the lightning which must surely be visible to passersby, yet they just keep on moving: No one stops to rubberneck. Then we see the Jedi Master get electrocuted and defenestrated with a good bit of horizontal movement toward the traffic lanes, yet traffic just keeps moving along, nothing to see here. Nobody seems to do anything about the witnesses, not even Sidious himself. Why didn't anybody rubberneck and even though I'm sure the location of the Chancellor's suite in the building is top secret (though people knew what building he was in) why didn't any of those passersby put two and two together with what they witnessed and Palpatine's Declaration of a New Order? |
| 366 | ** "Oh, that fight is Jedi business. MoveAlongNothingToSeeHere. Windu is a Jedi master, he will be all right." |
| 367 | ** ...You do realize that the traffic was moving about 20 times faster than it would be on earth, not to mention they weren't that close to the window (they were probably a mile away), so really, any drivers would be moving too fast to notice anything going on in the Chancellor's office other than (possibly) a couple of really bright lights. |
| 368 | ** No vehicles would be allowed near the Supreme Chancellor's tower for simple security if nothing else. Certainly not close enough to make out any details. |
| 369 | ** You're an average Joe driving along at night. [[WeirdnessCensor You see some bright lights coming from the Chancellor's office? What do you do? You drive right past.]] And if you do try to say anything, a couple stormtroopers will drop by your house and ask you very nicely to shut up. If you're lucky. |
| 370 | ** If someone could accidentally have the wild luck to see the duel clearly, it would work in Palpatine's favor. The Jedi are attacking the Chancellor, and most Republic citizens likely don't know what a Sith looks like. |
| 371 | ** It also helps that the average Couruscant citizen wouldn’t really be all that clued in that Sith=BAD, so to them, it looks like the Jedi attacking an innocent Chancellor who must now defend himself with a lightsaber. Why does he have a lightsaber? Simple, he likes to collect relics, maybe he trained himself in the art of self-defense given that the entire galaxy was currently at war? In any event, they would either be smart and shut up about it or pass on concluding the Jedi had completely lost their collective minds. |
| 372 | |
| 373 | [[/folder]] |
| 374 | |
| 375 | [[folder:Palpatine's strength]] |
| 376 | |
| 377 | * How strong was Palpatine? Did Palpatine let Mace Windu beat him? Was he acting, or was he really beaten? Some people say Palpatine could have killed Mace easily, but he needed Windu alive for Anakin to turn to the dark side. |
| 378 | ** You've answered your own question. Palpatine wanted to look weak and helpless so Anakin could be fooled into thinking the Jedi were attempting an illegal coup. Once Mace was disarmed (literally), Palpatine suddenly springs back into full action and bombards Mace with a strong surge of lightening. Plus, WordOfGod states that only Anakin, in his full potential, would've been strong enough to overthrow Palpatine. |
| 379 | ** Anakin would have been less likely to fall to the Dark Side if he arrived in Palpatine's office to find Palpatine winning, or even just holding his own, against Windu. He needed to look like he was in mortal peril to get Anakin to act against Windu. Remember that Palpatine telepathically called Anakin to his office while the latter was impatiently waiting in the Council Chamber to learn the result of Windu's bust. Palpatine was likewise timing the fight to coincide with Anakin's arrival at his office. |
| 380 | ** A large section of the fanbase believe Windu's use of techniques including Vapaad (a dueling form which allows him to relish in the fight and feed off of his opponent's Dark Side energies) and Shatterpoint (the ability to find the weak point in structures, events and people and capitalize on them) allowed him to best Palpatine, despite his weaker overall strength in the Force. I am one of those fans, and I think if not for Anakin's intervention, Palpatine may well have been done for. |
| 381 | ** Windu's Vapaad style seems to have a really good compatibility with Sith Lords, as it simply feeds off the dark side opponents' aggression. In other words, it is a style which seemed designed to win against Sidious. However, moments before Sidious seemingly relents, he admits that Vapaad is not enough, they are essentially deadlocked, that it takes everything he has not to be overwhelmed by Sidious' vicious attacks, and that he needs to find his shatterpoint to win. Except that Palpatine's shatterpoint is Anakin. I, for one, do not see how Windu could have made use of Anakin to win. In other words, I can't find any way for their duel to escape the deadlock, one way or another, without Anakin's arrival. The more Sidious gets hurt and has his lightning reflected, the more his hate and rage amplifies and the more he can launch his lightning. Windu simply reflects the attacks. |
| 382 | ** Furthermore, the story is arguably more interesting if there is even a slight possibility of Palpatine failing and losing to Mace, instead of Palpatine being a completely InvincibleVillain. RuleOfDrama can apply to villains, too. Sure, Palpatine was making a huge gamble by putting himself in a situation where he might have died if Anakin hadn't arrived in time, but you don't get to be emperor of an entire galaxy without [[TheChessmaster taking a]] [[ManipulativeBastard few risks]]. |
| 383 | ** Alternatively, it was something of a {{Xanatos Gambit}}/{{Indy Ploy}} depending on just how good a plotter Palpatine actually was. He may have intended to fight and kill Mace himself but on sensing Anakin nearby retooled the plan to accelerate the fall instead by forcing Anakin to take action instead of just hanging around angsting - this way Anakin has tied himself to Palpatine much more firmly. And if all HAD gone wrong and Mace killed Palpatine, presumably there would have been ways to release that footage to the public, as they did with the initial arrest (albeit craftily edited.) However it shakes out, the Jedi are screwed. |
| 384 | |
| 385 | [[/folder]] |
| 386 | |
| 387 | [[folder:Expecting you]] |
| 388 | |
| 389 | * "Welcome, Lord Vader. We've been expecting you." This is a fairly innocuous line out of context, but to Anakin/Vader it should have been a revelation. See, when Vader arrives on Mustafar he is welcomed by the Separatists, who clearly know who he is and that he's coming. That Palpatine was the one that told them is obvious: they know his Sith name, which only Palpatine would know, and knew he was coming on a mission that only Vader and Palpatine knew about. However, Palpatine by this point has not divulged to Vader (and likely never does) that he is in cahoots with the Separatists; indeed, revealing this would probably turn Vader against him, as Vader joined Palpatine due to his belief that the Jedi were taking over and to protect his wife. Nute Gunray, however, just laid out for him Palpatine's collusion in not only starting a massive, galaxy-spanning war in order to increase his own power, but also as to how Palps was involved in multiple attempts on Padme's life. Coupled with the fact that he now knows that Palpatine doesn't know how to cheat death, the scales should have completely fallen from Vader's eyes in that moment, if only to realize that he has damned himself on a lie. So why didn't he? |
| 390 | ** This is talked about further up the page. Basically Anakin already knows he's working with the man who orchestrated the entire war by that point and made peace with it (or as much peace as man in his shoes could). I would even venture to say he didn't like it and it cost the lives of many people he held nothing against but his personal demons were already too strong at that point to look back on it and decide to stand down. He had already committed an unforgivable act at the Jedi Temple, Sidious was probably his only ally at that point. |
| 391 | ** Actually, even by this point, Vader was already plotting to overthrow Palpatine. By slaughtering the Separatist Council and putting an end to the war, he could then plot against Palpatine and overthrow him when the time was right. Then (in his mind), he and Padmé would be seen as heroes and rule the galaxy together. Padmé, however, wanted no part of that, and the fact that Obi-Wan had stowed away on her ship made him jump to the conclusion that she betrayed him. So he force-choked her. Then after he was incinerated and put in his new armor by Palpatine, Vader was told that he had killed Padmé (which was true, [[MetaphoricallyTrue From A Certain Point Of View]]), and, believing he had nothing left, save for Palpatine, fell back into line. That is, until he discovered that his son was still alive. |
| 392 | |
| 393 | [[/folder]] |
| 394 | |
| 395 | [[folder:Issuing Order 66]] |
| 396 | |
| 397 | * So Palpatine issues the order by calling commanders and saying the word, and they cannot disobey. Consider how many worlds with how many clone battalions there are across the galaxy. Did he spend the whole day calling various clones and repeating these three words? Additionally, in ''The Clone Wars'' it was explained that the clones were programmed to kill Jedi with biochips. If that was the case, couldn't Palpatine have simply pressed a button? If it was activated via voice command, it is still retarded, especially with the "the time has come" bit which implies that the clones have known for some time what they would be ordered to do. It could have been more logical to summon all troopers to the HQ's (luring the Jedi there as well), send a transmission to explain the Jedi's coup, issue the order with this justification, then activate the chips to prevent any clones from disobeying. |
| 398 | ** The Clones all knew about Order 66, because it's a list of standing orders they all had that might be invoked one day -- Order 67, for instance, is almost the same, but it's about removing the Chancellor instead. Even if it is activated by voice, that doesn't mean Palpatine had to call each one individually and repeat it -- he could just have his message sent to all of them at once. Or it was prerecorded. The chips are there to make sure none of the clones have second thoughts about fragging the commanders they've been working alongside for several years. |
| 399 | *** If the message was pre-recorded, why do the clones even bother to answer ("Yes, my Lord", "It will be done, my Lord") as if Palpatine is listening? (unless he wanted to hear a million voices answer at once because he was that much of an egomaniac) Besides, the message to Cody starts with "Commander Cody, the time has come" which suggests a personal message. Furthermore, the "the time has come" bit suggests that the clones were aware that it's a matter of time before they execute Order 66, specifically, and not another contingency order. The only possibility is that Palpatine has informed the clones at some point between the arrest attempt and sending the transmission - after all, the 501st Legion received the order earlier, likely personally by Palpatine or Anakin. I, at least, took "the time has come" to mean that the clones have known their true purpose since before the war. But it could be interpreted as "The 501st have cleared the temple and set the trap. Proceed to execute Order 66 across the galaxy, [[YouCantGoHomeAgain they have no safe haven now]]." |
| 400 | ** They're soldiers. They hear an order, they confirm it. |
| 401 | ** It's possible that the Order spread throughout the army by clones letting each other know, and Palpatine just got the ball rolling by contacting a few. |
| 402 | ** And Palpatine's clearly been waiting for this for a while. The satisfaction he got from that first command - and trying to have Obi-Wan killed first would have been no accident - would be immeasurable. |
| 403 | ** The obvious answer is that the message is pre-recorded, but Palpatine personally called the Commanders with the Jedi who posed the greatest threat by serving as Anakin’s MoralityChain, namely Obi-Wan and Ashoka. So he contacted Cody and Rex personally to ensure they got the order. |
| 404 | ** That still doesn't answer the question of why he would bother to learn their names. That seems out of character. |
| 405 | ** My guess: Palpatine personally contacted officers he felt would likely disobey the order (Rex, Cody, Gree, etc.) to ensure they carried it out. |
| 406 | [[/folder]] |
| 407 | |
| 408 | [[folder:Anakin's Lightsaber]] |
| 409 | |
| 410 | * When exactly did Obi-Wan pick up Anakin's lightsaber? It seemed he just lopped off Anakin's legs, had a chat and left. But he had to have picked it up at some point to keep it until giving it to Luke, right? |
| 411 | ** As Obi-Wan starts walking away, before Anakin starts yelling "I hate you!", there's a clear shot of Obi-Wan picking up the lightsaber. |
| 412 | [[/folder]] |
| 413 | |
| 414 | [[folder:Congratulations you're having... twins?!]] |
| 415 | |
| 416 | * So I know that Padme did get check ups to make sure she was healthy (according to the novelization anyway)and I understand why she wanted to keep the baby's gender a surprise but surely she should have been told she was having twins? It's not like anyone in the fandom doesn't know that Luke and Leia are siblings at this point. |
| 417 | ** As I recall, Obi-Wan is the only one surprised at the mention of bab''ies''. I don't recall Padme ever specifying that she's having only ''one'' baby, just that she's pregnant. |
| 418 | ** Well except for the fact that whenever the subject of her pregnancy comes up, the dialog only refers to one baby. This line for example: Ani, I want to have our baby back home on Naboo. We could go to the lake country where no one would know... where we would be safe. I could go early- and fix up the baby's room. I know the perfect spot, right by the gardens. Or this: Anakin: You die in childbirth... Padme: And the baby? Anakin: I don't know. This gives the distinct impression that until the birth no one, not even Padme, knew she was carrying twins. And if Padme did know why didn't she ever mention it? She had no reason to hide that fact and even if she did you'd think she'd have told Anakin, seeing as he's the father. Yet she has to be told by Obi-wan that she had twins and years later Darth Vader, who made such a big deal about Luke being his son and searched the whole galaxy to find him and try to get him to join him, doesn't seem to know that Leia is his daughter, or even that he had another child besides Luke, until he plucks that fact from Luke's mind. It doesn't really make sense does it? |
| 419 | *** We never actually see the exact moment Padme learns she's having twins. As the point above notes, Obi-Wan is the only one who is explicitly surprised when the medical droid mentions twins. At that point, Padme's in a different room and when the twins are born, she's too busy giving birth/dying for anyone to be able to accurately state if she was surprised when the second baby popped out. It's entirely possible that she only discovered she was going to be having twins after she and Anakin were separated from each other - the only time they meet once things start getting ugly is just before Ani leaves for Mustafa/when she goes to Mustafar to confront him. Neither of which are exactly prime opportunities for her to be all "Oh, by the way we're gonna be having twins, mkay?". |
| 420 | |
| 421 | |
| 422 | [[/folder]] |
| 423 | |
| 424 | [[folder:Sure, I'll kill a bunch of kids...]] |
| 425 | |
| 426 | * So Anakin is desperate to save Padme, and he believes that only Palpatine can prevent her death. When Mace Windu moves to kill Palpatine, Anakin panics and attacks Windu, causing his death. So far, so good. But then Palpatine commands Anakin to go to the Jedi temple and kill them all, which he does, including the children. But unlike his slaughter of the Tusken Raiders, which was fueled by rage over his mother's death (which they were directly responsible for) this is a cold, unfeeling massacre. I can understand Anakin might be angry that the Jedi almost took away his only chance to save Padme, but what did the children have to do with it? How were they to blame? And why in the world would he think killing them would magically save Padme? Killing children in cold-blood takes a twisted mind indeed, and Anakin was still human enough to feel remorse after killing Mace Windu by accident. How can he go from that to child-murderer in the space of five minutes? It makes it hard to feel any sympathy for Vader at all when he didn't even question how Palpatine's command would save Padme. |
| 427 | ** He didn't kill the kids because he thought they were somehow responsible or because he thought it was part of the process of saving Padme. He's depressed and psychologically vulnerable, and Palpatine is taking advantage of that to get him to do whatever he wants. He spins it as, "The Jedi are evil. They want to take over and kill me. Therefore, they have to be destroyed. Then I'll feel safe enough to help you save Padme." |
| 428 | ** Palpatine also points out, completely logically and correctly, that if any Jedi survive, they'll be a threat to ''both'' him and Anakin. "If a single Jedi survives, there will be civil war without end." And Anakin knows the Jedi well enough to know that this is factually true. . . no Jedi will rest until the Sith have been wiped out, since that's exactly what they've been priming Anakin for since day one. Killing all the Jedi in the Temple, even the children, is simply pragmatic. . . don't leave live enemies at your back. Palpatine also tells Anakin, rather more nebulously, that by killing all the Jedi he'll be strong enough in the Dark Side to save Padme. Going by various RPG sources (I know, of dubious canonicity), a Force-Sensitive's "Dark Side Points/Dark Side Score" affect how close they are to being a full-fledged Darksider. Anakin probably had a few Dark Side Points after killing Mace Windu (most of them unintentional), but then actively chose to join Palpatine. So Palpatine sending Anakin to the Temple was "Here, commit enough evil acts there to gain enough Dark Side Points to unlock the Sith Prestige Class." |
| 429 | *** Palpatine is right on the 'Civil War without end' thing. Therefore, the logical thing for Anakin to do would have been to skewer Palpatine. That would solve that problem. |
| 430 | ** Well, let's apply this to the real world. On the one hand, you've got a guy (let's call him Annie) who accidentally caused the death of another man while attempting to stop him. Any halfway decent lawyer would make the case that this was just a crime borne of passion, this wasn't a cold-blooded, calculated murder. He was merely trying to stop him but unfortunately picked the wrong method of stopping him and things spiraled out of control and presto, guy's dead. On the other hand, you've got a guy (again, let's call him Annie) who took a gun, walked into his home and shot up every last resident within who once called him family. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Down to the children. In other words, in the first case there could have been a plausible chance of redemption. In the second? With the cold-blooded massacre? Not a single chance. Not even [[{{ComicBook/Daredevil}} Matt Murdoch]] would be able to defend this guy adequately. To put it simply, by having Anakin murder the Jedi, Sidious was testing his will and resolve to the Dark Side and to sever any chance of redemption and forgiveness from the Jedi's side. |
| 431 | ** And do note that his actions take a clear toll on him throughout the film, that scene included. |
| 432 | *** If you're refering to the scene on Mustafar when he cries, the novelization says that he was crying not for what he'd done, but for the death of the hero Anakin Skywalker. |
| 433 | * Anakin was never close to anybody in the Jedi Order except Obi-Wan and Ahsoka. He knew that killing the Jedi was wrong, but as a Jedi who fought in a war he was desensetized to violence, and he didn't care enough about anyone in that temple, children included, to risk Palpatine ever finding out that he disobeyed or failed him, and by extension Padme and his unborn children's lives. Sure, he later shouts that he sees the Jedi as evil, but [[WordOfGod Lucas said that]] he just sees everyone as power-hungry and evil now, and he doesn't think he's doing the right thing, just what keeps Padme alive. |
| 434 | ** I was under the impression that Anakin felt he had to deepen his connection to the Dark Side in order to save Padme, and the quickest way to make that connection stronger was doing obviously evil actions like killing a bunch of kids. |
| 435 | * The biggest problem is just ''how quickly'' Anakin goes from "What have I done?!" after killing Windu out of fear to coldly murdering children, without any actions in-between to further him down the path. Granted, he may have been trying to earn "Dark Side points" as someone mentioned above, but killing kids is considered a monstrous act that few people could bring themselves to do. Which means if he was prepared to do that without hesitation, he would need to ''already'' be completely subsumed by the Dark Side, and the film does not demonstrate how he got to that point. |
| 436 | [[/folder]] |
| 437 | |
| 438 | |
| 439 | [[folder:Why does the Emperor stick with a screwed Vader?]] |
| 440 | |
| 441 | * After the Vader/Kenobi fight is over and Vader comes out severely injured, why does Palpatine bother to keep him as an apprentice? Wouldn't it had been more efficient to let him die and then look for another apprentice instead of going through the trouble of restoring him to a sort of health? At this point we know Palpatine [[WeHaveReserves lets disciples die as if they were easily replaceable]]; plus, a [[TheChessmaster puppet master]] like him would probably have a pile of résumés waiting by his desk in case Vader ever died. Furthermore, by then Palpatine is ''Emperor'', so it's not like he would have any lack of candidates throughout the Galaxy. |
| 442 | ** Yeah, there are lots more Force-sensitives out there, but Vader a) knows how Jedi think, so he makes a great Jedi hunter for all the ones who escape Order 66, b) is still enormously powerful and skilled, not to mention having plenty of military experience, c) already trained in the Force, and d) isn't powerful or cunning enough to actually try and kill Palpatine. If you were Palpatine, would you go through the bother of either corrupting another Jedi, or training another apprentice when you already have a servant who probably won't kill you for the reasons stated in the above thread, but is still incredibly badass? |
| 443 | ** There may also be a bit of the sunk cost fallacy at play; Palpatine spent more than a decade slowly coaxing Anakin to the Dark Side, he may have been reluctant to throw away his pet project so soon after it had finally culminated. |
| 444 | ** I think it can be solidly argued that the answer to your question ("Wouldn't it had been more efficient to let him die and then look for another apprentice instead of going through the trouble of restoring him to a sort of health?") is "no". Sure, it probably wasn't ''easy'' to cyborg Vader back into capability, but it's also not especially hard in a WeWillHavePerfectHealthInTheFuture sci-fi setting. We can infer from how easily the Rebels replaced Luke's hand later on that cybernetic replacements aren't especially expensive or difficult to install. Maybe to an individual they are, but for an Empire that can afford two giant planetkiller starbases, the cost of fixing Vader up is a rounding error. Finding a force sensitive as powerful as Vader, on the other hand, along with training and grooming him into a pliable apprentice, isn't something you can just throw money at. |
| 445 | [[/folder]] |
| 446 | |
| 447 | [[folder:Why not give the twins to Padme's sister?]] |
| 448 | * We learn that in the deleted scenes, Padme has a living mother and sister on Naboo. When Yoda and Obi-Wan debate what to do with Anakin's children, Yoda insists that at least one be with their family...and then sends baby Luke off to live with Owen Lars, his father's step-brother. Step-brother...not a blood relation, someone who met Anakin once, who had no family ties to Luke at all. Meanwhile, Sola Naberrie, the twins' aunt, was alive and well, living on Naboo. |
| 449 | ** You think people wouldn't have noticed that Padme's sister got a child to take care of immediately after her death? You don't think that wouldn't have been suspicious at all? Palpatine's home planet is Naboo, for crying out loud. Tatooine is way off the beaten track, and is guaranteed to be the one place that Vader wouldn't ever return to, and it's safer for Leia to be adopted by someone who has no link whatsoever to Padme. |
| 450 | *** But he did have a link to Padme. He was one of a number of Senators (including Mon Mothma, future leader of the Rebellion) who shared political philosophies, who petitioned Palpatine to resign as Chancellor, or at least surrender his emergency powers. A political enemy of the new Emperor would almost certainly be a candidate for surveillance, and when he and his wife, who had been known to have had difficulty conceiving a child, show up with a new infant right after Padme dies... next to that, how does the non-political aunt of the children rate on the noticeability scale, especially considering that she already had two children of her own? |
| 451 | *** ''"You think people wouldn't have noticed that Padme's sister got a child to take care of immediately after her death?"'' Seeing as apparently no one noticed a baby called Luke Skywalker being raised openly as the son of Anakin Skywalker, by his father's stepbrother, in or very near his father's home town, a few miles away from a man with the impenetrably cunning pseudonym of Ben Kenobi, I'm going to say no. |
| 452 | *** Of course nobody noticed. Tatooine is in the ass end of nowhere. The Emperor has no interest in the place. It's much less suspicious than the mother's sister getting a newborn immediately after Padme's death. That's the sort of thing that gets gossiped about! Not to mention that the influential Senator won't be publicly advertising the fact that he's got a kid back on his home planet. He can easily fudge the numbers so it seems like he only got the kid some time after Padme's death, not to mention that there's no proven link between him and the Jedi which might conceivably have got him the child. |
| 453 | *** If such a public figure as a head of state can "easily fudge the numbers", why can't the kids' aunt, who has the advantage of far more privacy? Either the Emperor, or more importantly Vader, suspects there might be surviving kids out there or he doesn't. If he does, it's stupid not to just at least have someone check the records relating to Skywalkers and Kenobis, or send someone to scare up the locals in case there's a lead. If he doesn't suspect, and he's off doing evil space dictator things and primarily based on Coruscant, then how soon is the question of how many kids Padme's sister has going to arise? He's probably never met her or thought about her. As she's not a public figure, and the Star Wars verse doesn't seem to have our kind of life-through-a-lens media circuses or the internet anyway, it's very unlikely gossip about her would have much currency beyond her immediate circle, and even that could probably be tamped down or averted altogether by a judicial move to say a more remote area before anyone admits to Leia's existence. And she could always have said she just didn't "show" until really late in the pregnancy, it's not that unusual. |
| 454 | *** You know, just because she's a blood relation doesn't mean she would necessarily be a good caretaker. Anyway, a senator would more easily be able to protect the child, while Random Sister J wouldn't. Also, convincing her that it was actually Padme's child, despite the fact that Padme didn't tell anybody besides the father about her pregnancy, would have been hard. She would have asked too many questions, and she would have no inclination to trust the Jedi whom everybody are now calling traitors. It's also much more convenient to keep the child closer to somebody like Bail, who has links to the Jedi. Now, you might say that Owen and Beru are just as unlikely to cooperate, but they live on the fringes of space and would be slightly used to shady activities, and they have a closer relationship to the father, if only because Owen liked his stepmother, and Obi-Wan can actually keep a watch on the kid. |
| 455 | *** To take your points in order; just because Owen Lars is quasi-related to Anakin Skywalker doesn't mean that he and Beru would necessarily be good caretakers. Sola at least has whatever benefit of the doubt comes from already having two children who, later evidence reveals, turned out pretty okay. Second, do you mean to suggest that starship computers can count the midi-chlorians in a blood sample, as did Padme's ship in Episode One, but no other bit of machinery in the galaxy can do a simple genetics scan? Proving the ancestry of the children ought to be child's play. Thirdly, regarding the convenience of fostering Leia to Bail Organa...convenience is no substitute for failing to do the right thing on behalf of two children. The ultimate point is that Yoda said that at least one child should be with his or her family, and then proceeded to disregard the twins' aunt and grandmother. |
| 456 | *** They probably could do a genetic test, if they had a sample of Anakin's DNA. As it is he probably isn't available for a paternity test and has no other living relatives. |
| 457 | *** You don't need Anakin's DNA. The point is to prove the kid is a nephew/grandchild of Padme's sister/mother. A DNA sample from either and a DNA sample from the kid are sufficient for that purpose. |
| 458 | *** Organa was the one who offered to take Leia and he mentioned that he and his wife were planning to adopt a baby girl. If their difficulties conceiving were public then it's not unreasonable to assume that their adoption plans were as well. |
| 459 | *** Sending any of the children to Naboo is foolish for an even simpler reason: it happens to be the Emperor's home planet. There is a probability that he will return there from time to time. And while they couldn't know this at the time they made their decision: he does. Often. It becomes a major Imperial occupied planet and a favored vacation spot of Palpatine. Comparing Naboo to Tatooine, Tatooine makes more sense, it is too far removed to be of any note to the Empire and even if Anakin is from there, he is less likely to return there than Palpatine is to Naboo. |
| 460 | *** Why does she have to stay on Naboo? |
| 461 | *** Pretty sure its been mentioned in the Expanded Universe that Vader can't return to Tatooine- it gets his heart racing too much for his life-support system to handle- he went there once, and not only did he have to leave immediately, but he had to see a medical professional too. Since Vader can't go, and Emperor is way too busy to go, its the perfect place to hide a force user from the Sith. |
| 462 | *** "Here are the progeny from the secret marriage that your sister has never confided in you about. I'm sure that you will take them in discreetly and without raising undue fuss with the proper authorities despite the fact that your sister is dead under mysterious circumstances and her good friend and former Naboo Senator now Emperor Palpatine could so easily clear it up. Also, they might be the hope of the galaxy. We might need them later! Bye! We can't stay though, since this is totally the Emperor's home planet." Yeah, that's going to be a good idea. |
| 463 | *** Wait, so Vader can never get too agitated? So what happens when he is fighting or something? |
| 464 | *** I'm actually convinced that Vader knew perfectly well all along that Luke was his son and where he was. It's not like they did a good job of hiding him. This seems pretty much confirmed by Vader's big reveal in ESB. I assume he was waiting to see if Luke would grow up and become strong enough to challenge the Emperor. He only had to acknowledge that Luke is his son once the Emperor himself heard about it. |
| 465 | *** Expanded Universe works state that Vader didn't know who Luke was before he blew up the Death Star, and learned his name while trying to find him in between the first and second movies. Presumably he put two and two together, which is why he doesn't act too surprised when Palpatine tells him about Luke in Empire. |
| 466 | *** Why has no one brought up the fact that Vader thought his wife died before she gave birth? This is why it was easier for the families to hide the babies' true identities. In the case of the Organas, as has been previously stated, they were known to have been trying to adopt a child and so they simply falsify documents showing that they adopted her from some Alderaanian orphanage. And has also been stated Vader has no interest in going to Tatooine and so it was a great hiding place. |
| 467 | [[/folder]] |
| 468 | |
| 469 | [[folder:Timeline issues]] |
| 470 | * Most of the events in the second half of the movie have to take place all within about half an hour, during which time Obi-Wan Kenobi travels halfway across the galaxy twice. On the other hand, in the same period of time Padme goes from barely showing her pregnancy to eight months gone. Either way, something's up. What? |
| 471 | ** Some viewers thought the latter half of the film was set over a period of months, and that Padme wore concealing clothing. |
| 472 | *** False. Just consider it the will of the Force. |
| 473 | ** Simplest explanation: Obi-Wan [[TravelingAtTheSpeedOfPlot travels at the speed of plot.]] |
| 474 | ** I think the official timeline of the main story given was somewhere between 7 to 9 days. The opening act was all in one day, and Anakin's dream was the end of that day. Obi-Wan was sent off to track Grievous on the 3rd day, killed him on the 5th. He returned to Coruscant on the 7th, fought Anakin on the 8th, Padme died on the 9th. The closing scenes can be anywhere from the next day to a week later. Star Wars has never mentioned any specific speed or real distances between two points. The most we have is that supposedly Coruscant is near the center of the galaxy and the Outer Rim is the outer rim. |
| 475 | *** Actually, Coruscant is in the Outer Core, not the Deep Core, which is so dense with stars as to be darn-near impossible to navigate, and the Outer Rim is actually about two-thirds of the way to the actual rim of the galaxy. Beyond the Outer Rim is Wild Space and the Unknown Regions. The Outer Rim was most likely named that because at the time of its naming it was the outer rim of the Republic—the Colonies and Expansion Region, for example, are actually inside the Inner Rim and Outer Rim, respectively. |
| 476 | *** So dense with stars its impossible to navigate?? Oy. Star Wars has no sense of scale... |
| 477 | *** It's not about scale, it's a function of hyperdrive technology. Hyperdrive doesn't work safely in a gravity well. The Deep Core is so choked with stars that there's no safe hyperspace routes through it. |
| 478 | ** It's worth mentioning that Hyperdrive is ridiculously fast. It's possible to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in a single day. |
| 479 | *** That's generous, Palpatine gets a bad feeling and jets from the centre of the galaxy to the outer rim before Anakin becomes well done but the EU talks about the mapping of hyperspace routes being the key factor. |
| 480 | ** Nothing about the film's timeline is terribly clear but obviously it must have spanned at the very least some seven odd months or so. I mean, hello, pregnancy term going on. It's easy to get so caught up in the real time flow of one scene into the next that we forget that the characters aren't experiencing it the same way and, in fact, the interim between may be considerable to them while being instantaneous to us. |
| 481 | [[/folder]] |
| 482 | |
| 483 | [[folder:Jedi: Judge, Jury, and Executioner?]] |
| 484 | * Anakin has told Mace Windu that Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord. Windu and the Jedi immediately take it upon themselves to arrest and execute him without trial or any actual proof that Palpatine broke the law. Supposedly the Jedi are the guardians of "peace and justice" in the Republic. Except now the Jedi have the absolute right to execute the democratically-elected leader of the government solely because he follows a different Force-using tradition from them? |
| 485 | ** They don't. That's why the Jedi were traitors, remember? They justified it to themselves as necessary because Palpatine controlled the courts. |
| 486 | *** I agree with this interpretation. They work with the Republic most of the time because it enables them to protect the galaxy more and a Jedi/government civil war would be a bad thing (see: the great Jedi purge), but when one of their members tells them that the government of the Republic has been infiltrated and corrupted by their greatest enemy they pretty much say "ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight" and attempt a coup to remove Palpatine from power and capture him (Windu later decides it is better to execute him just to be sure). Though this does leave us with the problem of Obi-Wan's "my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!" line. Maybe these are just his personal convictions, but if they represent Jedi thought in general it leaves us with the problem that Palpatine, whatever his Force tradition's history of animosity with the Jedi or the galaxy, is the rightfully elected ruler of the Republic. And while he IS conspiring to perform an self-coup which will destroy the Republic, the Jedi who went to arrest him had no evidence of that beyond the fact that he is an alleged Sith. So I dunno. |
| 487 | ** Actually, the Jedi probably do have the legal right to hunt down any Sith Lord they can find. Their influence over the founding of the Old Republic was immense, and they were the only military the Republic had for millennia. Given that plus the Sith also damn near destroying galactic civilization at least four separate times in recorded history, and the idea that Republic law considers 'existing while being a Sith' as a high crime is not far-fetched... the Jedi would want such a legal provision to exist, and they had more than enough opportunity to get it through the Senate thousands of years ago. |
| 488 | *** Palpatine raises this very point in the novelization. When Windu accuses him of being a Sith, he says something to the effect of, "So what? Even if it was true...that's not an admission...but even if it was true, the Republic's constitution guarantees religious freedom." To which Mace Windu replies: "Our authority here isn't legal. It's moral..." |
| 489 | *** Watch that scene again. Windu and the other Jedi clearly say they're there to arrest Palpatine. It's not until Palpatine attacks them and kills three Jedi that Windu decides to outright kill him. |
| 490 | *** That's part of the larger point. Again, from the novelization, the Chancellor had just received from the Senate a bill placing the Jedi Order under his control, which is why he was able to appoint Anakin to the Jedi Council. Windu and co. had no legal authority to arrest him; making his charge of self-defense not entirely inaccurate. |
| 491 | *** Maybe, but he actively struck first, with lethal force, when no one had made a move to attack him physically at all. The Jedi had given every indication, even with their very body language, that they were perfectly willing to take him peacefully. |
| 492 | *** Add one more item to the list of things that went wrong with the Jedi since the start of the Clone Wars (and I'm sure there were flaws before them, too). |
| 493 | *** By that time, the Jedi were facing an existential threat. Palps had already overstayed his welcome as Chancellor, and when the Jedi realized the terrible truth about who he was, they couldn't afford to just play nice anymore. Palpatine resisted arrest, and Mace realized he wouldn't be brought to justice any other way. After all, the Chancellor WAS the Senate. |
| 494 | ** Look at what the Jedi know about the Sith: there are two of them (how they know that, I'm not sure), and one was the (apparent) Separatist leader. It's not an unreasonable jump to the conclusion that the other Sith is also part of the Separatists. One assumes the Republic had laws against treason. |
| 495 | *** They learned about the "Rule of Two" the last time the Sith emerged as a terrorist death-cult bent on destroying half the galaxy and enslaving the rest. These things tend to stick around in institutional memory. |
| 496 | ** The first Darth Bane novel explicitly states that the Sith religion is illegal in the Republic. There would be no particular reason to remove that law just because you think they're all extinct; after all, no-one actually got around to purging Korriban from orbit, Imperium of Man style, so there was always a risk that the old Sith ruins would be found. |
| 497 | *** Without a copy of either fictitious documents in question (ie, the Republic's Constitution or the law referenced in the Darth Bane novel) it's an open question whether or not the Republic's Constitution supersedes any particular law. Bringing it within the context of the American justice system, any state or federal law is required to conform to the Constitution, and any outright banning membership in a religious group would be struck down in short order. |
| 498 | *** The religious group that spends its free time torturing people with the ''power of pure evil?'' The one ''wholly dedicated'' to overthrowing the government, destroying another religion supposedly built around mercy and compassion, and crushing the population of the galaxy beneath its booted heel? This is the religious group we're discussing here? Even if the Republic constitution has a "freedom of religion" proviso, you can see why there'd be a willingness to make an exception for the Sith. |
| 499 | ** Returning to the really important thing, here, let's get our priorities straight and face reality: ''lunging across the frickin' room and slicing everyone in it to ribbons when none of them have so much as threatened to physically harm a single hair on your head is not self-defense and not even DisproportionateRetribution: it is mass murder, plain and simple.'' It doesn't matter whether the people you're slaughtering are themselves committing the crime of wrongful arrest or not: it was a peaceful arrest, without any intimation of a fight already about to start anyway, nor any indication that lethal force, let alone of every party involved, would be required for escape. |
| 500 | * On a related note, let's assume that Mace and his three buddies managed to arrest Palpatine and bring him before court. I don't know how the law works in their galaxy, but what exactly would they charge Palpatine with? |
| 501 | ** Treason? Conspiring with the enemy? Conspiracy? And I imagine "Being A Sith Lord" is probably at the very least frowned upon as traits for the head of the Galactic Republic. |
| 502 | *** It is entirely conceivable that being a Sith is illegal in the Republic, as the Jedi were very involved in its creation. Also, he started a civil war. |
| 503 | [[/folder]] |
| 504 | |
| 505 | [[folder:Has anyone ever heard of Painkillers?]] |
| 506 | * Judging by Padme's screaming, she was suffering a lot during the birth. Has no one in that galaxy heard of painkillers? And since they were actually operating on her, shouldn't she have been put to sleep? Any real doctor would kill those guys. |
| 507 | ** If mother or baby is in bad enough shape, sometimes you need drastic measures to get the child(ren) out in time. I was born by unanaesthetised Cesarean section, for instance. |
| 508 | ** There are plenty of real-life situations where the risk of giving someone painkillers is too great since you could end up actually killing them. As the above troper says, Padme was clearly already in a bad way and giving birth naturally. For all we know, any kind of painkiller might have killed her before she'd finished giving birth, effectively killing the child as well. |
| 509 | [[/folder]] |
| 510 | |
| 511 | [[folder:"Only a Sith deals in Absolutes"]] |
| 512 | * Anakin/Vader says "if you're not with me, you're my enemy" and Obi-Wan replies that "only a Sith deals in absolutes". In other words, Obi-Wan is saying "if you deal in absolutes, you're evil". That sounds like an absolute to me, so Obi-Wan is basically saying that he's a Sith. |
| 513 | ** It's a one-liner, not a deep philosophical teaching. If you want to elaborate on it it's probably better to think of it as meaning "Only bad people divide every conflict into clear and obvious 'sides' and don't try to deal with each individual involved based on their personal motivations and points of view". |
| 514 | ** Just that absolute came to you? I saw several, including: Light Side/Dark Side, Jedi/Sith, Stuffing/Potatoes, Tastes-Great/Less-Filling, Control/Passion, Selfishness/Selflessness. |
| 515 | *** You forget "Do, or do not. There is no try." |
| 516 | *** That's not the whole quote. Look at the scene again. Anakin says, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!" That's an absolute. It's very clearly the Sith way - 'My way, or the highway'. Obi-Wan replies, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes - I do what I must." In essence, he's telling Anakin that they don't have to be enemies, but unless Anakin backs down, he has no choice. He doesn't say "Only a Sith SPEAKS in absolutes", as that's absurd. Merely that Sith demand absolutes, whereas Jedi try for compromises when they can. |
| 517 | *** But he later DOES deal in absolutes. After he yells that Palpatine is evil, Anakin replies "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" This is quite a reasonable response; he is making Obi-Wan aware that he has a different opinion about what is good and what is evil, and hence he is fighting what he believes to be evil just as Obi-Wan does. His response? "Well, then you are lost!" Obi-Wan doesn't even consider the possibility that he is wrong, that Anakin might have an opinion that is different than his but might be equally valid, and that they are both fighting against what they believe to be a force of evilness; he simply rejects the idea out of hand. In his mind, Sith are evil, period. That's absolutism, and that's not just speaking in absolutes, that's dealing in them. As to the apparent hypocrisy of this act, Obi-Wan is just another indoctrinated, dogmatic Jedi who believes a lot of things about Sith because that is the way he has been instructed, including the belief that it is only them that "deal in absolutes" in spite of the fact that the Jedi do the same thing. |
| 518 | *** Palpatine ordered him to murder CHILDREN for effs sake! Obi-wan saw it! Is purposely killing children morally ambiguous somehow? Since when? |
| 519 | *** The logical fallacies in the Jedi way of thinking were more or less the whole point of Palpatine's plot. If the Jedi weren't thinking that way, he wouldn't have been able to manipulate them so easily. |
| 520 | *** Yoda is green. Space vacuum is empty. Chancellor Palpatine IS evil. That's not absolutism; that's objectivism. What Anakin has lost is his objectivity. If Obi-Wan had said "Chancellor Palpatine is, always was and always will be evil", that would be absolutism. As it stands, all he does is point out the obvious fact which is true at that point in time. |
| 521 | *** Honestly, a big flaw in the exchange is Anakin saying, "From my point of view..." Calling it your point of view implies you do recognize that it's only a point of view; further, people just don't argue that way. By all rights, he should have just said, "The Jedi are evil!" at which point Obi-Wan's line, "Then you are lost!" would make more sense, as Anakin would have treated it as an absolute. Sure, it's a Call Forward to the "From a certain point of view" thing, but that line just breaks the whole scene for me. |
| 522 | ** Let's also remember neither of them is exactly calm and rational at the moment, their tempers are getting kinda heated. |
| 523 | ** Even though this was several years before the era of "alternative facts", Anakin hits that note quite nicely. "Palpatine is evil? Not in ''my'' world he isn't! Those kids he had me murder? They were in on the whole Jedi conspiracy too! In fact, maybe he didn't have anybody murdered, the clones were acting in self-defense!" I could go on, but you get my drift -- Anakin has already decided what he believes, don't confuse him with facts. |
| 524 | * It's a theoretically more intelligent-sounding way of saying "You're talking like a Sith" (that fact that that needs to be said when they both know Anakin had bowed before the Sith Lord mere hours ago just shows how thick Obi-Wan is. The line just wasn't thought through word-for-word). |
| 525 | [[/folder]] |
| 526 | |
| 527 | [[folder:Grievous' vocal ability]] |
| 528 | * Just a minor point, but how does Grievous talk, exactly? I don't know how much, if any of his throat is there, and he doesn't have a mouth. So... what separates his speech from his thoughts? And how does the built-in comlink factor in? |
| 529 | ** He's got a speaker grill. As for how the virtualisation works, the details don't matter. It's not like you have to wonder about separating thought and speech normally. He is moving his robotic limbs about extremely dexterously, it shouldn't be too hard for them to fit in a "turn com-link on-off" switch. |
| 530 | * Okay, how does Grievous cough? If he's got no throat and lungs, and he's just using a speaker, why does he cough? Habit? Or does he have an Ultravoice (whatever than thing for people who've had their larynxes removed is)? |
| 531 | ** He has lungs, they're protected by a special flesh-sac underneath the cyborg armor. |
| 532 | [[/folder]] |
| 533 | |
| 534 | [[folder:Escape Pod controls]] |
| 535 | * When General Grievous sends off all of the escape pods. Why exactly are all the pod's controls inside the ship, rather than inside the pods? Wouldn't that mean that in the event that they had to use the escape pods, one person would be left behind to activate the controls (and ultimately die aboard the ship)? |
| 536 | ** If you watch carefully, Grievous launched the pods while in his own one. My guess is that all the pods have their own launch controls, but Grievous has a special pod that allows him to launch them all in situations like the one in the movie. And even if the controls were in the ship itself, no-one would have to die to launch them. Make a battle droid do it. |
| 537 | * Speaking of which, why does a ship crewed entirely by droids even have escape pods (or more than one, Grievous would obviously put one in to save his own hide, but there's no need to save cheap expendable droids...)? |
| 538 | ** Because the ship wasn't exclusively crewed by droids. There were at least a few Neimodians on board, not to mention Count Dooku. |
| 539 | ** Maybe there are controls inside the pods ''and'' in the bays, just for the sake of redundancy. |
| 540 | [[/folder]] |
| 541 | |
| 542 | [[folder:Anakin's hypocrisy]] |
| 543 | * Why is Anakin such a hypocrite? He kills a prisoner with no hands. His justification? SITH LORD! Mace Windu has the antagonist of the last two movies and is about to kill him? "AUUGHH Jedi don't kill surrendering opponents!" |
| 544 | ** I suspect that ''might have been the point'' of that scene. In the novelisation, they make this ''really obvious''. |
| 545 | ** And Anakin never thought for a moment that killing Dooku was right. It was an impulsive act, and he says immediately afterward that he shouldn't have done it. So, from his perspective, seeing a revered Jedi master doing the exact same thing (except Mace was actually being fairly calm and calculating about it) was what looked hypocritical. They told him you never kill surrendering enemies, and he was conflicted about killing Dooku, but now here's Mace Windu doing the same thing and he's not even hesitating about it. From Anakin's limited, UnwittingPawn point of view, that pretty much killed his belief in the Jedi's moral superiority. |
| 546 | ** Let's also keep in mind Anakin's true motivation. He wants Palpatine to save Padme. If he dies, she dies. He'll say or do anything to save her, including calling Mace out for breaking the code, even though he did the same. |
| 547 | ** Palpatine set those two moments up perfectly. Though both are quite similar, he maneuvers Anakin into making the ''wrong'' choice in both instances. He talks Anakin into killing Dooku basically for revenge, and then talks Anakin into stopping Mace Windu from killing Palpatine. As is a theme of Star Wars, the symbols are the same, the meanings are reversed. In the first case, Dooku really should have been brought to justice, and perhaps made to spill the beans on exactly what all this was all about. In the second case, Mace really should have just executed Palpatine, because he ''was'' far too dangerous to be left alive. But Anakin won't let him, both because he needs Palpatine's knowledge to save Padme (he thinks) and because he himself made the wrong choice in the exact same situation earlier. |
| 548 | [[/folder]] |
| 549 | |
| 550 | [[folder:Windu breaks the window]] |
| 551 | * When Mace Windu was fighting Palpatine, why did a strike with a lightsaber shatter the window? My guess, that a weightless and incredibly sharp blade should've left nothing but a slash, no? |
| 552 | ** It depends on the properties of the material. In this case I always assumed the heat from the blade was transferred into the material, causing it to shatter. |
| 553 | ** Weird. I always figured the window shattered due to some residual Force blast bouncing off the two of them. |
| 554 | ** RuleOfCool. |
| 555 | * As seen in other canon sources, notably ''Rogue One'' when Jyn and Cassian try to get to the databanks, blasters and lightsabers do shatter glass like bullets. Chalk it up to the melting temp of glass being so hot, the kinetic energy of a shot or swing does far more damage than the heat. |
| 556 | ** Yeah, but this was the window in the ''Supreme Chancellor's office!'' You know, the same Supreme Chancellor who had been ''abducted'' by Separatists at the beginning of the movie? Given the size and depth of the window, you would expect it to be made of material that any would-be kidnappers or assassins could not just obliterate with a blaster. Especially since Palpatine was (suspiciously) alone and unguarded in his office suite at night not long after the last kidnapping! |
| 557 | ** Hey, if Palpatine ever had the slightest inclination that one day he might be able to murder one of his strongest Jedi opponents by electrocuting him and tossing him miles down/forward to his death, and if using weaker glass would help that fantasy come to life, ''he's gonna make it so''. And remember the Separatists only ended up kidnapping him because he engineered that to happen. Also, it looks like both lightsabers struck the glass simultaneously at different places, which could also have played a part. |
| 558 | [[/folder]] |
| 559 | |
| 560 | [[folder:"You were my brother."]] |
| 561 | * I've never really seen Anakin and Obi's relationship as a brotherly bond, I took as a more father and son thing, why did they try to make it out that they were brothers? |
| 562 | ** The Jedi Order is sorta like a fraternity. They probably all think of each other like brothers. Or you could say they were brothers in arms. |
| 563 | ** The bond between a master and a student tends to be likened to the bond between a parent and a child. Since the Padawan usually has no contact with their family, they only have their master to raise them, so it's natural that they would start to think of them as a parental figure. Once Anakin finished his training however, he and Obi-Wan were constantly paired together to fight in the Clone Wars, now as equals instead of master and apprentice. Wouldn't be surprising that their relationship would change a little. Besides, only Anakin said they were like father and son, while only Obi-Wan considered them brothers, so it could be a difference of opinion (could even reflect their own views on the relationship. Obi-Wan felt they were equals, while Anakin felt Obi-Wan was too bossy and domineering). |
| 564 | ** Alternately, the fact that they were like brothers plays into Anakin's lack of a father figure growing up, a role which Palpatine took upon himself, to everyone else's detriment. Obi-Wan was barely an adult when he was given the responsibility of caring for a very difficult ward, and lacked the maturity to approach it as a father rather than a big brother. |
| 565 | ** Their age difference is also only around a decade which shifts the relationship de facto from father/son to brothers. |
| 566 | [[/folder]] |
| 567 | |
| 568 | [[folder:"All Droid Units must shut down immediately"]] |
| 569 | * Why did the Emperor order all combat droids to be shut down? Droids are extremely useful in combat. Unquestioning loyalty, no organs so they're more durable. No time spent to train them, only programs loaded in, and you don't have to pay droids either. |
| 570 | ** I believe Palpatine said that so there wouldn't be any usurps for control if any of the Separatist generals found out that the leaders were dead. |
| 571 | ** That made no sense. The battle droids are just mindless machines. They're not going to usurp anybody. |
| 572 | ** No, but the Separatist generals, who aren't droids, could take control of the droids and try to usurp. |
| 573 | ** Yep, and indeed several do fight on after the war. |
| 574 | * On a related note, did they ever get around to shutting the droids down? Immediately after Palpatine tells Anakin to send the message to the Trade Federation, Padme arrives on Mustafar. Anakin rushes to meet her and that eventually leads to his duel with Obi-Wan where he ends up crippled. So Anakin never actually sent that message. |
| 575 | ** Perhaps he did it in between slaughtering the Separatist Council and talking to Palpy? |
| 576 | ** Palpatine only gave him the order while talking to him. In the novelisation, Palpatine had the Separatists shut them down before Anakin killed them, but it was changed for whatever reason in the movie. |
| 577 | ** In which case, adaptation induced plot hole. |
| 578 | ** You can probably hack and reprogram droids and create an entire anti-Imperial army out of continually activated droids, not to mention not deactivating the stil millions of droids across the CIS's remaining territories would make the Empire's consolidation of power much harder. If you can decapitate the main power-base of your enemies in an instant, why not do so? Think of it like the Nightsisters on Dathomir vs the CIS, where the Nightsisters are the CIS's organic core, their zombies are the CIS Droid Armies, and the invaders are the Republic/Empire. |
| 579 | [[/folder]] |
| 580 | |
| 581 | [[folder:Starfighter wings]] |
| 582 | * The Jedi Starfighters. What are those retractable wings for? At first I thought they were like the X-Wing's S-foils. Open to fire lasers, closed for extra speed, yet in the film, the Jedi Starfighters are shown to be capable of firing with the wings closed, and they have the wings open even when Obi-Wan and Anakin are cruising down to Utapau and Mustafar respectivly. |
| 583 | ** They're supposed to be radiators apparently, although this makes little sense because they're a couple of magnitudes too small for the amount of power those things are outputting. |
| 584 | ** They serve the narrative role of tying the Jedi and the Republic to both the Rebel Alliance (with their distinctive folding s-foils on many fighters) and the Galactic Empire (with their distinctive solar-panel equipped TIE fighters). It's a bit of Foreshadowing to indicate what the Republic was about to turn into, and the Jedi [[UnwittingPawn cluelessly]] helping things along. They might also serve some in-universe technical function, but that was of secondary importance in that starfighter's design. The ARC-170 fighters, the proto-X-wings flown by the Clone Pilots, similarly feature flip-open panels which seem to do nothing but to foreshadow the Rebel Alliance's fighters (and [[RuleOfCool look awesome]]). |
| 585 | [[/folder]] |
| 586 | |
| 587 | [[folder:"You'll be expelled from the order!" And?]] |
| 588 | * Why does Anakin even want to remain in an order that forbids his marriage to Padme? Just leave and get a job doing, oh, anything else whatsoever. Why is it so important to him to remain in a group that he increasingly views as hypocritical and corrupt, and which prevents him from doing the very ordinary things he craves? The story just seems to take it as a given that being part of a suffocating order without pay is something absolutely vital. |
| 589 | ** Two reasons really: The first is that being a Jedi is all Anakin has ever really known. Anakin is driven by his fear of loss, and he can't really comprehend losing the security and familiarity of the Jedi Order even if it does feel stifling. The second is that Anakin also craves recognition and status (and maybe even outright power) and being a Jedi automatically gives him those. Even if he chafes at the restrictions, he knows that when he enters a room as a Jedi Knight then people have to give him respect and have to listen to what he says and he doesn't want to lose that either. Fear and a desire for control, that is the dangerous combination that drives Anakin Skywalker. |
| 590 | ** At this point, though his trust in the Jedi's moral high ground is waning, Anakin is still convinced that the Jedi are the cornerstone of the Republic, usually selfless (or they ought to be), and they are the wall between peace, happiness and the war and horrors that the Sith want to unleash on the Republic. Anakin enjoys the status for sure, but it is also clear (and made clearer in the novelisation) that it would only be a nice-to-have bonus, nothing more. Even the reason he wants the mastership position is that only masters are allowed access to restricted information he believes he needs to save Padme; the moment he realises his meditations (or Palpatine's help) might suffice, he loses interest in the position. Anakin Skywalker was at his most peaceful, driven and happy when he was saving people. He considers saving people to be the reason he was born. Whenever he is not fighting to save lives, he is plagued by nightmares, anxious about his marriage, terrified of the fact that someday Obi-Wan or Padme might die and leave him the way his mother did, burdened by his status as the chosen one and the expectations everyone has of him as a result (expectations that only go up to eleven when he defeats and kills Dooku in single combat), etc. Anakin NEEDS to be in a position where he can actively save people, and Padme knows it. Leaving the Order in disgrace, leaving everyone else and everything behind him to be with Padme on Naboo, while initially appearing very tempting, would only cripple him and leave him wallowing in guilt and restlessness. Hence why Padme refuses to let her relationship with him impede his progression and future within the Order, because he needs it to be the man she fell in love with in the first place and be happy. Being the Republic hero, the dashing and audacious to Kenobi's subtle and steadfast, the renowned Sith-slayer Jedi/Chosen One, simply IS what Anakin Skywalker is, and needs to be. It's telling that Palpatine's efforts are, justly, aimed to destroy this part of Skywalker, and the moment he indeed loses that, is the very moment Vader is born. |
| 591 | [[/folder]] |
| 592 | |
| 593 | [[folder:Why couldn't Anakin or Padme just come forward about her pregnancy, but keep their marriage a secret?]] |
| 594 | * I get that the Jedi are not allowed attachments, hence the reason why Anakin/Padme couldn't come forward and say that they were married, but since WordOfGod ''does'' say that they're allowed to have casual sex, why doesn't one of them just come forward and claim that they forgot to use protection while having a "Lightsaber duel" with each other, and she doesn't want an abortion (either Anakin saying it in a "Take my word" sense, or Padme herself saying it), thus she needs to give birth safely? I get that he wouldn't be allowed to raise them (outside of possibly as a Jedi Master), but the Jedi don't exactly come across as the type of people who would actively encourage her to have an abortion. |
| 595 | ** Because there is casual sex, and the amount of time he's spent with Padme that is just... wow. They'd call him on his BS immediately. |
| 596 | ** Also, Anakin and Padme's romance is given some intentional parallels to ''Theatre/RomeoAndJuliet'', down to their unwillingness or inability to come out into the open about the nature of their relationship contributing to a skyrocketing body count as others around them act on their own often based on flawed assumptions. |
| 597 | ** Also, no the Jedi probably wouldn't force her to get an abortion but they'd almost certainly force Anakin to make the choice between Padme and the child or the Order. Attachments are forbidden and a child is a pretty big attachment. If it truly was the result of a one-off thing, it might be different since there'd truly be no guarantee that he'd ever really form an attachment, but it's no secret that Anakin and Padme are ''close''. If Anakin chose Padme, he'd risk being kicked out of the Order and losing all the inherent power and respect that comes with being a Jedi. If he chose the Order, they'd probably forbid him from ''ever'' seeing Padme again, let alone allow him to meet the child. I doubt either of them want to face that choice. |
| 598 | [[/folder]] |
| 599 | |
| 600 | [[folder: General WHO?]] |
| 601 | * There's MeaningfulName, and then there's "directly using an adjective as the character's name". My point is: "General Grievous"'s name bugs me, a lot. With the Sith, it's clear they're ''intentionally'' picking out their names, hence Maul, Tyran(us), (In)sidious, (In)vader. But we're never told that "Grievous" is anything but his birth name, and yet it's an English adjective that perfectly matches his condition ''and'' temper on two different levels? That seems ridiculously contrived. |
| 602 | ** According to ''Legends'', his original name was Qymaen jai Sheelal and he adopted the name Grievous after becoming a cyborg. It's unknown if that's case in Canon as well. |
| 603 | ** Also, he wasn't a Sith so his (nick)naming convention is not like their's. |
| 604 | ** The more pressing question is why their top general being named "General Grievous" doesn't make Separatists question whether they're on the right side. |
| 605 | ** They probably figured that it was A: named in solidarity for the "grievous suffering" the Seperatists would have suffered from the Republic, or B: it was named to strike fear into the Republic. This was after all the same Seperatists that accepted a vast droid army for the purpose of scaring the Republic into submission. |
| 606 | [[/folder]] |
| 607 | |
| 608 | [[folder: Why doesn't Palpatine's disfigurement seem to hurt him?]] |
| 609 | * I've heard the fan theory that it wasn't really disfigurement but rather something similar to ThisWasHisTrueForm. Even so, with all that Force lightning right to his face I'd think he'd have to have some severe burns which hurt a LOT so how come they don't seem to cause him any pain? Is he just that tough? |
| 610 | ** He's a Sith Lord, they literally feed off pain. More to the point, Sidious' training undoubtedly consisted of far worse pain than that, so obviously he wouldn't show it. |
| 611 | ** It could also be a weird sadomasochistic thing for him. He got those burns by deceiving his protege, then turning him outright into his apprentice, and by killing one of the most powerful Jedi around, so he was able to channel that intense pain into a sick pleasure. |
| 612 | [[/folder]] |
| 613 | |
| 614 | [[folder: Dooku couldn't talk?]] |
| 615 | * Was there a reason Dooku didn't yell out that his master was in the seat right next to him and Anakin? |
| 616 | ** He was probably in too much shock over the double whammy of Anakin (literally) disarming him and Palpatine selling him out. |
| 617 | ** He probably figured Anakin wouldn't believe him. |
| 618 | ** Out-of-Universe: Originally Dooku was supposed to either beg for amnesty, or try and blurt out exactly what you described. Christopher Lee (the actor) felt it was too undignified for someone like Dooku to resort to begging and suggested this route instead. |
| 619 | ** Therefore the fact that Dooku was shocked and yet above begging for his life becomes an in-universe explanation, too. |
| 620 | [[/folder]] |
| 621 | |
| 622 | [[folder: Yoda's only chance?]] |
| 623 | * Why did Yoda only make one attempt to directly confront the Emperor? They seemed fairly evenly matched in their fight, yet after he's defeated Yoda says he must go into exile and never makes another attempt (in fact he doesn't seem to do ''anything'' to support the struggle against the Empire for the next 20 or so years). Why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan get together a few years later when the Emperor wasn't as on his guard, pick a moment when Vader was off sulking in his fortress on Mustafar, and double-team Sidious? |
| 624 | ** Yoda is on Dagobah because he can hide there -- he's the strongest Light Side Force user around, so either Palpatine or Vader could easily sense him. So if he joins the Rebellion, it just makes them that much easier to find. Same for the second suggestion -- Vader senses Obi-Wan the second he's on the same space station that's the size of a moon. He or Palpatine could sense Obi-Wan and Yoda coming long before and either avoid them or just blow up the ship they're on. |
| 625 | ** If Palpatine can sense Yoda approaching from far off, why is he surprised in this film when Yoda shows up in his office to kill him? |
| 626 | ** He's not expecting Yoda, and thinks that Order 66 got him. But afterward, he knows Yoda's alive and he has Vader actively hunting down Jedi ''and'' the Rebellion. It's easier to find something that you're looking for. |
| 627 | ** The idea that Sidious has the ability to sense Yoda's presence is seriously undermined by the events of this movie. He doesn't know that Yoda has returned to Coruscant until Yoda is in his office knocking out his guards, and then after their battle Yoda successfully escapes by merely hiding under some Senate pods and using a service tunnel. In other words, even when actively searching for him in the same room Sidious is unable to locate Yoda. |
| 628 | ** I'm not saying that Sidious always perfectly knows where Yoda is. I'm saying that if he's looking for him, sensing the big honking Light Side Force signature is going to help him find him. Before Yoda attacks, Palpatine isn't looking for him -- he probably assumes Order 66 worked. Afterward, he just got punched in the face with the Force a lot. It's a lot harder to find something when you've just gone through a knock-down, drag-out fight that you barely won. |
| 629 | ** If the Emperor has to be actively looking for him in order to sense him, why doesn't Yoda hide on Dagobah for a few years until the Emperor gets bored of looking for him, pick a moment when Vader is off relaxing in his bacta tank on Mustafar (as seen in ''Rogue One''), collect Obi-Wan from Tatooine and then go double team Palpatine on Coruscant? Obi-Wan and Yoda were both able to sneak back onto Coruscant in this film with no problem at all. |
| 630 | ** Again: during this film, Palpatine thought they were already dead. This is also assuming that Yoda could somehow keep exact enough tabs on both Palpatine and Vader to know what they're doing and where they're looking, an ability Yoda is never shown to have. Remember: Yoda is not watching the movies. He ''does not'' have access to the information we do. Remember also that he spent ''two decades'' totally unable to figure out that Palpatine was a Sith Lord at all despite speaking face-to-face with Palpatine dozens of times, so how he'd be able to tell what their daily schedules are from across the galaxy is beyond me. |
| 631 | ** Vader and especially the Emperor are public figures. It shouldn't be very difficult to know when the Emperor is on Coruscant, and to determine when he is in his offices running the government. Palpatine cannot be focused solely on his search for Yoda for years and years -- he has a galaxy to run. At some point he would have dropped his guard, and the reason Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't take advantage of it seems to be solely because this is a prequel, and the original trilogy said they stayed in exile until then. |
| 632 | ** Yoda and Obi-Wan managed to get close enough to the Emperor and Vader because the Sith Lords assumed they had been killed in Order 66. So the element of surprise was on the Jedi's side, especially if Palpatine didn't bother to look for them. Now that he knows they're alive, that's not going to work again. |
| 633 | [[/folder]] |
| 634 | |
| 635 | [[folder:Bail intercepting Jedi?]] |
| 636 | * Near the end of the movie, after Order 66, Bail goes to his ship and tells the Captain they need to intercept Jedi walking into the trap; and does manage to get to Yoda and Obi-Wan, but how? How was he planning on identifying returning Jedi, and for that matter how does he get in contact with Obi-Wan and Yoda personally? |
| 637 | ** That's a good question. I was about to say he had intel on where Obi-Wan and Yoda were going (being close to them and all) and was going toward their last known locations. |
| 638 | ** It could be that he was looking around for Jedi in general and they happened to be the ones he found. |
| 639 | ** This is actually explained in the ''Revenge of the Sith'' novelisation. Bail has his men steal a homing beacon from a Jedi starship for the express purpose of getting in contact with other Jedi to warn them. |
| 640 | |
| 641 | [[/folder]] |
| 642 | |
| 643 | [[folder:Palpatine's voice change]] |
| 644 | * During Darth Vader's christening, Palpatine's voice inexplicably sounds very deep and demonic. After he put his iconic hood on it returns to normal. No reason is ever given for this. Was he talking through the Dark Side to make himself sound more intimidating? Or maybe he can simply modify his own voice at his own will thanks to some Sith power? |
| 645 | ** Possible. WMG here, it's possible that he was allowing the Dark Side to speak through him. I mean, this ''is'' their big win, after all. |
| 646 | ** According to sources such as ''{{Literature/Tarkin}}'', that's exactly what he would sometimes do. |
| 647 | [[/folder]] |
| 648 | |
| 649 | [[folder:Windu's backup?]] |
| 650 | * Mace Windu is about to arrest the Dark Lord of the Sith and he brings only three Jedi with him. Granted they are Jedi Masters, but still! These Jedi are skilled but there isn't anything stopping Windu from bringing more forces with him. Order 66 hasn't happened yet, so why doesn't Mace try to bring some clones or special forces with him? You know, ARC Troopers? Clone Commandos? |
| 651 | ** In the last movie, when Windu decided to bring backup he brought TWO HUNDRED AND TWELVE JEDI just to rescue Obi-Wan!!! |
| 652 | ** The rest of the Jedi are off fighting the war somewhere or another. And since Palpatine has recently become the Supreme Commander of the Clone Army, he could just order any clone troopers the Jedi brought with them to stand down. Windu's doing the best he can with the Jedi resources, which are already stretched thin by the war. |
| 653 | ** Which was indeed the point of the war; wear down the Jedi by spreading them across the galaxy, get as many killed as possible, and leave the rest unable to cope with the eventual coup. |
| 654 | [[/folder]] |
| 655 | |
| 656 | [[folder:Calling Cody by name]] |
| 657 | * When giving out Order 66, Palpatine addresses "Commander Cody" by his nickname. Considering how many clones there are, and that officially they don't have names, why does Palpatine even know the name of a random clone commander? This is especially considering how callous Palpatine is. The clones are pawns to him, and yet he gives them more respect than some Jedi (Pong Krell) do. What's going on here? |
| 658 | ** Obviously he uses macro templates in his Order 66 calls, he just says execute order 66, and the template fills in the names with his voice. It is the only way it makes sense. As to why, well early on in a coup you've got to give the illusion about caring what the catspaws think and how the sleepy masses will see you. Palps needs to look as if he has the personal touch at first, then transition to childish supervillainy later once he is fully secure. |
| 659 | ** So wait, Palpatine is able to have a perfectly synthesised voice that speaks for him? What, does Palpatine have his own version of Siri? That's a bit of a stretch to believe. Also, if Palpatine wanted to get their trust by saying their names 1.) How does he do that with every clone commander? Or is it only Cody, and if so, why? 2.) Again, why would Palpatine care? It feels out of character for him to suddenly care about addressing his underlings. |
| 660 | ** Palpatine has a flair for the dramatic. What sounds cooler "Comander Cody, the time has come to execute order 66!" or "Hey what's your face, executive order 66"? |
| 661 | ** Also, Palpatine doesn't really need to worry about getting the clones on his side. As we see in ''The Clone Wars'', their chip implants do that for him. |
| 662 | ** Perhaps Palpatine identified Obi-Wan as a major threat to his plans for Anakin and called Cody first to ensure Order 66 was truly carried out, emphasising its importance by calling Cody by name. |
| 663 | ** Presumably his holo computer flags up the name of whoever he may be calling, regardless of whether he's actually spoken to them before or not. |
| 664 | ** As ''[[VideoGame/StarWarsJediFallenOrder Fallen Order]]'', ''The Clone Wars'' season 7, and ''[[WesternAnimation/StarWarsTheBadBatch The Bad Batch]]'' shows, Palpatine normally only needs to tell the clones to execute Order 66, with the same message seemingly broadcast every time. My guess is that while the vast majority of the clones receive a pre-recorded message, in this one instance Palpatine personally contacted Cody, probably because he figured that Kenobi would be a major issue. |
| 665 | [[/folder]] |
| 666 | |
| 667 | [[folder:A 13-year-old legend? Really?]] |
| 668 | * Okay, so when Palpatine relates "The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise" to Anakin, he refers to it as a Sith legend. However, [[{{AndThatLittleBoyWasMe}} Palps was Plagueis' apprentice]], meaning that the story could only have occured 13 or so years prior to this film, since WordOfGod holds that Plagueis was still around during the events of ''Film/ThePhantomMenace''. How can something so recent already be a legend? |
| 669 | ** He's framing it as a legend, trying to make it about a story passed on down the generations. He's not going to openly tell Anakin, "Yo, my master, Darth Plagueis, whom I killed 13 years ago, taught me this neat trick!" |
| 670 | ** He's simply lying to Anakin to make it seem more mystical. I mean, why wouldn't he? Anakin would know no better. |
| 671 | [[/folder]] |
| 672 | |
| 673 | [[folder: Hand to hand Kenobi]] |
| 674 | * When Obi-Wan loses the electrostaff after chasing Grievous through the lower levels of Utapau, why is his first instinct to attempt hand to hand combat against a cyborg assassin made out of metal, that is supposedly strong enough to survive starfighter bolts? Even if EU is ignored, this seems like a needlessly dangerous strategy. Why doesn't he just Force push him again, maybe against the ceiling? It worked pretty well the first time! Grievous isn't going anywhere, and even if he is, just Force push his ship off the cliff. For that matter, why isn't Obi-Wan holding him in place with the Force. Not Force choking him, that's a Dark Side move, but at least restraining him in place. Then he can call for some backup from the clones and they capture him. In any scenario, trying to go hand to hand against Grievous is asking to get murdered. |
| 675 | ** If you go by the 2D ''Clone Wars'' animated series, Ki-Adi-Mundi and his team of Jedi tried to Force push and otherwise telekinetically attack Grievous during his CurbStompBattle with him but he was able to dodge these in time. Windu was fast enough to crush his chest, but Obi-Wan might not want to risk missing in case Grievous runs away in the meantime. So he'd rather use the Force to enhance his hand-to-hand strikes, even though as it turns out it's not enough to punch through the cyborg's armour. |
| 676 | [[/folder]] |
| 677 | |
| 678 | [[folder: Escaping with Palpatine]] |
| 679 | * Why doesn't the ''Invisible Hand'' jump to hyperspace immediately after Palpatine is captured? The man is just chilling on the bridge waiting for two of the most powerful Jedi to come and rescue him, and Count Dooku is killed in the process, nullifying the whole plan and setting into motion the sequence of events that destroy the Separatists. |
| 680 | ** They were caught in the battle with the Republic fleet. Plus given how this was all part of Palpatine's plan to bring Anakin closer to the Dark Side, he, as Sidious, may have left orders regarding how the invasion should go. The ''Legends'' novelisation also showed that Dooku was in on the plan to have him duel Anakin and Obi-Wan, though he obviously wasn't told that he'd be betrayed to his death, so he may have left orders to Grievous regarding the situation. |
| 681 | ** The Expanded Universe established "interdictor" ships which can put out an invisible field that prevents nearby ships from entering hyperspace. So maybe the Republic had some interdictor ships in the area and the ''Invisible Hand'' couldn't make the jump until the interdictors were destroyed or until the ''Hand'' got far enough away from them with sublight engines. Presumably Sidious arranged all of this in advance. |
| 682 | ** It's been said they couldn't leave because of Coruscant's planetary shield, which trapped them in a location where they couldn't hyperspace out. As for getting rid of the shield, they probably couldn't do so until they disabled the generators, which probably happened after Palpatine is rescued. |
| 683 | [[/folder]] |
| 684 | |
| 685 | [[folder:Anakin's Stupidity]] |
| 686 | * Palpatine openly admits to Anakin that he's the elusive Sith Lord who is widely known to be the hidden hand behind the entire galactic conflict. This includes being in charge of the Separatist movement who have tried on multiple occasions to assassinate Padme on Palpatine's orders. This makes Anakin look even more stupid for falling for Palpatine's claims that he would even want to help save a woman who is fast becoming a political opponent that he had no qualms trying to assassinate more than once. While he was understandably desperate to prevent another premonition from coming true, why did it not cross his mind that actually this guy has tried to kill my wife before so why would he offer to help save her and maybe he's just full of crap? He then subsequently murders children in cold blood purely based on a half-promise from a man who has tried to have his wife killed and has admitted to orchestrating a galaxy-wide conflict purely for his own ends. It's hard to sympathise with someone who's so stupid that he can be tricked into committing such atrocities on such a flimsy promise. |
| 687 | ** It's partially implied that after Windu's death, he felt he had crossed a line there was no going back from, so it might be a case of ThenLetMeBeEvil. |
| 688 | ** He might have felt that but he was ridiculously gullible to think Sidious could or would even want to help in the first place. He'd just admitted to orchestrating the entire galactic conflict included attempted assassinations on Padme yet Anakin still believed him when he said he could help save her. |
| 689 | ** He does mention that he thinks he can overthrow him, but he mostly is singularly focused on saving Padme, and he seems willing to do whatever it takes to prevent her death. Furthermore, he is generally cocky and arrogant, so thinking he could become more powerful than Palpatine isn’t too out of character for him. |
| 690 | ** While he's got a cocky/arrogant streak to the point where he thinks he can overthrow Palpatine, that's not what makes him monumentally stupid or gullible. It's putting his faith in Palpatine AFTER Palpatine straight up admits he's been pulling the strings on both sides of the war which would have included those attempts on Padme's life. |
| 691 | ** He's obsessed with saving Padme at all costs and he isn't being reasonable, given his past attachment issues and he's desperate to try anything, no matter how unreliable the source may be. The whole point is that he has gone off the deep end and doesn't realise or care that he's been manipulated. He may be acting stupidly with his decisions, but he's not exactly a calm, level-headed thinker even in the best of situations. As for the questions about sympathy, given that he murders children, his actions are not meant to be sympathised with. |
| 692 | ** Anakin was also indicating as early as the previous film that he believes in a dictatorial form of government, anyway. Clearly the only way their relationship (and ability to be parents together) could have worked after his MoralEventHorizon is if Padme had submitted fully to him, the Emperor and their fascist regime. But of course her belief in democracy is in part why that was impossible. However, if she had gone along with it, presumably she'd view the Emperor as EasilyForgiven and he may even have worked to preserve her life as he promised. Or not. It's hard to say. |
| 693 | ** Did Palpatine ever say "I tried to kill Padme"? Presumably he crafted a lie. "Yes, I am the Sith who controls both sides of the conflict, but I'm only doing it to bring order to the galaxy! What? Padme? ''I'' didn't ask someone to kill her! One of my ''underlings'' tried to get her killed without my knowledge on account of some personal grudge he had. Don't worry, though. I already killed that guy." |
| 694 | [[/folder]] |
| 695 | [[folder:Separatist Council]] |
| 696 | * The Separatist Council leaves their meeting with Grievous moments before Obi-Wan shows up to duel him. Only minutes later, the clone army arrives to do battle with the droids. How did they manage to make it to their ship before the clones arrives and how did their ship manage to escape the battle in order to get to Mustafar? |
| 697 | ** With the Republic forces stretched thin at the end of the war, it would be impossible to conduct a full blockade of a planet so they managed to sidestep wherever they ''did'' blockade (e.g. the equator) and live to see another day. Their bodyguard escorts presumably hurried them along to the transport for their safety. |
| 698 | [[/folder]] |
| 699 | |
| 700 | [[folder: Why is Grievous so good at lightsaber fighting?]] |
| 701 | * It's implied you need a fair amount of training even if you are Force sensitive, which Grievous isn't. How is he able to wield ''four'' lightsabers [[InstantExpert right off the bat,]] and do so well enough that he's a match for a Jedi Master? |
| 702 | ** He's been in the employ of a Sith Lord, he might very well be a prospective apprentice, and even if he isn't, he's been taking lightsabers as trophies for a while. It isn't hard to imagine that he ''has'' been practicing, and having robot limbs is a heck of an equaliser. |
| 703 | ** Grevious outright said that he'd been trained in Jedi arts by Dooku, who himself was a former Jedi. Grevious's cybernetics, especially his extra limbs, make him highly adaptable, durable (in terms of the fact that he can repair himself), and agile, which allows him to effectively close the gap, though he does notably struggle against Jedi Masters like Kenobi. And while mastering the lightsaber is difficult for non-Force-sensitives, it is not impossible, as Pre Vizsla notably used the Darksaber during the Clone Wars. |
| 704 | ** Not to mention that we've seen Mando wielding the Darksaber a few times during ''The Mandalorian'', and even Han used the lightsaber, albeit briefly, when he cut open the Tauntaun in ''Empire Strikes Back''. The weapon is more or less a giant glowing sword. Anyone can pick up the sword and make clumsy chopping motions, but it takes training to wield it effectively. |
| 705 | ** Another thing to remember is that in both ''Legends'' and ''Canon'' Grievous was a warrior '''before''' he even joined the Separatists. In fact, in ''Legends'' he was schooled in the art of dual-wielding by his lover, many years before he even picked up a lightsaber. Thus, Grievous incorporated what had been drilled into him since his youth alongside Dooku's training. |
| 706 | [[/folder]] |
| 707 | |
| 708 | [[folder: Anakin's visions]] |
| 709 | * Were Anakin's visions of Padme dying really visions of the future? Or where they [[MindRape implanted by Palpatine]] to make Anakin think he needs him, and ultimately turn to the Dark Side? |
| 710 | ** Yeah, it is AWFULLY convenient that once Anakin fails to get the right emotional support from the Jedi, in swoops Palpatine-- who starts talking about how ''he'' knows ways to save people from death, that the Jedi do not. Padme even tells Anakin that he's being irrational, and she can [[CaptainObvious go to a hospital on Coruscant or Naboo,]] but he continues to be petrified of his visions. |
| 711 | ** Perhaps futuristic medicine at the time of the setting had led to the Republic experiencing very few multiple births (twins or more) so that single births were the norm. Thus, Anakin would be rightly concerned that unless a sufficiently trained medical team and suite were used, perhaps the risk of maternal death during labour would be increased by a small but certainly appreciable amount. |
| 712 | [[/folder]] |
| 713 | |
| 714 | [[folder: Why does Han not believe in the Force if Chewbacca ''fought along side Yoda'' in this movie?]] |
| 715 | * Did Chewbacca just never bother to bring it up in all the years they've known each other? You'd think when he says he's found nothing that would lead him to believe in the Force in ''Film/ANewHope'', Chewbacca would say (in Wookie) something like "I fought with Yoda at the end of the Clone Wars, and he definitely had Force powers." |
| 716 | ** A couple of things: disbelieving in the Force does not entail disbelieving in the ''Jedi.'' Han could have assumed that Yoda was just a powerful warrior with some neat acrobatic skills. And that's assuming that Han would have even believed any of Chewie's stories about this weird green guy who he met when he was younger. He might have assumed it was just a typical smuggler tall tale. |
| 717 | [[/folder]] |
| 718 | |
| 719 | [[folder: How can humans breathe on Mustafar?]] |
| 720 | * Shouldn't the air be ''full'' of deadly smoke and chemicals? Ok, the building the Trade Federation leaders are hiding in probably has some kind of filter, but we see Obi-wan, Anakin, and Padme standing out in the open with no protective gear and they can breathe fine. |
| 721 | ** It doesn't make sense. On that note, Lucas created the entire Mustafar fight scene (including the special effects) before he suddenly realized that Obi-Wan and Anakin would have been burned to a crisp by all the heat from the lava. He went back and added some energy shields to the droids that they ride on at one point, explaining that the shields blocked the heat. No explanation for the air quality, though. |
| 722 | ** The whole reason Vader has to wear the iron lung and mask is because the toxic air on Mustafar basically turned his lungs into shriveled raisins. For a while I thought it was because he was on the hot sand and, well, on fire, but that can't be it. How would the air be any more toxic when you’re face-down in the dirt rather than upright in a duel? |
| 723 | ** And if that is the case, why isn't Obi-Wan dead too? He was exposed to just as much of those lava fumes as Vader was when they were spinning around and going in circles. And Padme? Padme, might I remind you all, is ''pregnant!'' If anyone should avoid going to Mustafar, let alone going into the atmosphere, it's her! Anakin should have been like "Woah, woah, woah! Get the hell back on that ship! This place is hella dangerous for you." Granted he's evil by this point and probably self absorbed and probably is so messed up he wouldn't have that sort of reflective awareness....I guess...but still. The medical droid on Pollis Massa must suck at its job too. It can't deduce that Padme has been inhaling toxic atmosphere? The more you think about this the more apparent it is you're not supposed to question Mustafar's atmosphere at all. Or else your brain turns to mush. |
| 724 | ** |
| 725 | [[/folder]] |
| 726 | |
| 727 | [[folder: Did C-3PO get his mind wiped?]] |
| 728 | * At the end of the film, when Bail Organa gives C-3PO and R2-D2 to Captain Antilles, he tells Antilles to "have the protocol droid's mind wiped", referring to C-3PO. That's the last we see of either C-3PO or R2-D2 until ''Film/ANewHope'', which is set 19 years later. So, did C-3PO actually get his mind wiped? Assuming he did, does that mean that this seemingly sentient robot has to completely have his memories erased, presumably regressing him to the mental state of a ''baby'' for a while? I mean, I know that 19 years is plenty of time for him to form enough new memories to be as intelligent as we see him in ''A New Hope'', but if he really did get his mind wiped it's odd that he still has the exact same personality in the original trilogy as he did in the prequels. And for that matter, is there ever anything in any of the films that suggests that C-3PO doesn't have memories from the prequel era? And lastly, if C-3PO did get his mind wiped, did R2-D2 as well? After all, R2 is seemingly sentient too, he just can't talk. |
| 729 | ** It's confirmed that C-3PO did get his mind wiped, while R2 didn't. Based on what we see in ''The Rise of Skywalker'', it's essentially reverting them to factory state, where they don't have any memories, but still have the same level of sentience and intelligence. |
| 730 | ** In the original trilogy, C-3PO lands on Tatooine and doesn't recognize it. He gets purchased by Owen Lars but doesn't recognize him either. He stays at the exact same house that he stayed in 20ish years ago but he doesn't recognize that. All of this strongly suggests that he doesn't have any memories from the prequel era. |
| 731 | [[/folder]] |
| 732 | |
| 733 | [[folder: Life support on Grievous’ ship]] |
| 734 | * If the ship is manned entirely by droids, why is there life support everywhere? |
| 735 | ** Neimoidians work on the ship as well. |
| 736 | ** So that begs the question, why is there life support EVERYWHERE? It should be strictly for the bridge and maybe some of the upper decks. Not the whole ship. Right? |
| 737 | ** Since the CIS is not just a droid force (although it was majorly droids, there are still many organic officers and fighters) they probably just kept the entire ship life-supported to allow for this interchangability. |
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/context.php
FollowingContext Headscratchers / RevengeOfTheSith
Go To
- Show Spoilers
- Night Vision
- Sticky Header
- Wide Load
