Line #107 Headscratchers/Lucifer2016


1	New entries on the bottom.
2
3	[[foldercontrol]]
4
5	[[folder:Owning a nightclub]]
6
7	* How did Lucifer go from Hell to the owner of a high-end club within 5 years? Presumably, he had no starting capital when he and Maze landed on that beach, so how did he make it so successful in so short a time?
8	** Lucifer has the ability to bring out a person's inner desires. Blackmail and extortion would be trivial to him. Other than that, he has probably be watching humanity for a long time. It would be child's play to find hidden or sunken treasure to gain money. He has also shown an ability to integrate himself quite easily with the movers and shakers of L.A.
9	** It could be an ability all angels have. After all, Amenadiel was able to get himself an office right next to Linda's, didn't appear to be seeing any patients and had his own apartment.
10	** It's probably related to their own personal powers and abilities. For Lucifer, it would be trivial to arrange deals and manipulate the outcomes to his favor. For Amen, at least at first, perhaps it was by the grace of Dad.
11	** In Season Two it is confirmed that his "renting" the building where Lux and his penthouse are was more of a personal agreement with the owner and had no true legal standing. So it is safe to assume he manipulated his way into the other aspects of opening a nightclub too.
12	** Additionally, it's been shown that angels have the ability to move physical objects and materials between planes of reality. Given his proclivity for human interaction, it's entirely possibly Lucifer has collected a certain amount of wealth or valuables that was utilized to his benefit upon his decision to leave Hell.
13	*** He clearly either has secure storehouses full of money and artifacts on Earth, or he can bring them from Hell, because he repeatedly refers to things in the penthouse as having been gifted to him centuries or more ago. Amenadiel's supply of money is a little trickier, but it does seem to be limited... while he can clearly pay rent on his office and buy clothing, he doesn't seem to be able to replace his car after it gets blown up. Maybe at some point someone opened each of the angels a trust fund that pays out an allowance regularly, in case they need to do Earthly things while on a mission? Probably Uriel since they'd have needed to make sure the accounts never ran out of money and the banks never shut down.
14	** Why so complicated answers? It is likely far more simple: he either used his charm on the previous owner so that he gives the nightclub for free, or the owner is someone who "owned him one", and he came to collect.
15	[[/folder]]
16
17	[[folder:True face]]
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19	* When Lucifer wants to punish a sinner, he shows them a glimpse of his "true" face. However, is the red decaying skull with glowing eyes really his true face?
20	** Maze's reflection in the mirror shows a decaying face, but she's a demon. Is the skull face just a mask that Lucifer puts on or has his time in Hell changed his true form somehow?
21	** Presumably, his time in hell has indeed changed him; when finally pressed to show his true face to Dr. Martin, he gingerly shifts to the charred, red face he shows to his victims. It's obvious that he didn't want to scare her, so if he had a more beautiful alternative, he probably would have gone with it.
22	** There's probably also a measure of magic and intent; prior, he's always shown his face when he's also wanted to scare the crap out of people.
23	** Most likely that is not his true face since it has been revealed that it has been taken away from him and now he has angel wings again that constantly regenerate. He even laments the loss of his "devil face".
24	*** Excellent point in that Lucifer only calls it his "true face" because he believes he is truly a demon, not an angel (and by extension, a tool to be used by his Father).
25	** A confirmed explanation given in the last episode of season three. Lucifer's "devil face" and/or wings are just manifestations of what he wants to appear as. After his failed rebellion in Heaven, he gave himself his "devil face" because he believed deep down that it reflected his sinful, corrupted nature. After season two, his deeds made him believe that he was maybe good and angelic after all, and unconsciously exchanged his devil face for his wings as a reflection of his changed inner nature.
26	*** Season four would also seem to indicate that it's not just a matter of how he views himself, but also a matter of will and need. When he decides he ''needs'' to be the Lord of Hell rather than just wanting to or seeing himself that way, he's able to manifest the full Devil form he acquired earlier even though it had previously retreated... and then he can put it away afterwards, and even manifest his angel wings instead of his devil ones a bit later in the episode. So apparently it's not just a matter of self-image, but also one of sheer will and need... Lucifer could put on his frightful countenance through an act of will when he really needed to, similarly to how Amenadiel was able to use his time powers when he needed to and all his will was bent on it, even though they haven't returned at any time since.
27
28	[[/folder]]
29
30	[[folder:Returning to Hell]]
31
32	* What is preventing Lucifer from going to Hell aside from not being in the mood? Not going and resuming his duties, the opening of the show suggests that there was nothing keeping him in Hell aside from being obedient and thus far no mechanic has been explained that would keep him there. This is important because depending on how strict the rules of heaven and hell are in this universe at least some of the dead people probably didn't go upstairs. Like the thief who stole his wings. Luci could pop down to hell, interrogate the man who just committed suicide and skip a lot of detective work. Which in most cases is acceptable, he's having fun with Chloe. He cares if they solve the case in the same way we care about any game. Enough to get emotional over but not enough to cheat (generally) but his wings was not fun and games.
33	** It seems to be implied that Lucifer is intending to avoid Hell at all costs, since he'd probably be locked down so he's not able to shirk his duties and leave again.
34	** He was planning to use his coin to return to Hell (or the other way around), but it's a one-time use. Either he originally had a second one and doesn't know where to get more, or he only ever had one, and the first time he used his wings to fly up--which isn't an option any more. Yes, that means he shouldn't have burned his wings or cut them off in the first place, but no one has ever accused him of thinking ahead.
35	** He intentionally burned his wings so that he could ''never'' go back willingly. Amenadiel pointed out that they were a cop-out---a one-way ticket to hell in case he ever changed his mind. Since Amenadiel, Maze, and God are all trying to bring Lucifer back; Lucifer exerted his independence and finality of his decision to stay on Earth by burning his wings.
36	*** IF he burnt his wings. There was a fake set of wings in the same episode, and nobody got a good look at the ones he burnt.
37	*** Considering Maze scavenges one of the feathers from the scene and later uses it to heal Amenadiel[[labelnote:note]]proof that the feather was divine, as only divine objects can be used to heal celestials[[/labelnote]], it's likely (if not undeniable) that they were real.
38	** It appears to be fully mental. As season two showed, [[spoiler: once Lucifer gets his wings back]], he was perfectly capable of going down to Hell for a visit. However, Hell to Lucifer is just a reminder of his failed rebellion in Heaven and his millennia-long punishment by his father, so he wants nothing to do with the place unless absolutely necessary.
39	** Season 3's flashback episode also explicitly reveals that Lucifer only allowed himself to be escorted back to hell in years previous out of his own (reluctantly admitted) sense of guilt and responsibility to his Father's punishment. When Amenadiel calls him evil, it serves as the final mental breaking point for him and impels him to strike out his own in a final rebellion when he realizes nothing he's done up until that point will ever repair the damage of his former actions. The irony being, of course, is that his final act of defiance is the one that starts his path to redemption.
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41	[[/folder]]
42
43	[[folder:Timeline]]
44
45	* At what point in the series' timeline did Amenadiel reach his accord with Malcolm? At what point did Lucifer break out of Hell? Most of the main plot tells us that without Lucifer, no one in Hell is being tormented. No one is being punished. So is the Hell world fine and peaceful as shown in the brief scene depicted in the season finale where Lucifer returns to Hell? Because the way Malcolm put it, Hell was horrible and he doesn't wish to go back. Was he there while Lucifer was still there? Is it still a fucked up place after, and God is the one being unnecessarily mean to Lucifer? Were things okay for a while, then Amenadiel briefly engineered Malcolm's personal experience to convince him later? What made Malcolm so motivated?
46	** Hell's punishment is described as taking what one most appreciates in life and turning it around as punishment (Malcolm had a "hunger" for living and thus was punished by feeling unending starvation), which implies Hell is unique to each person and they may perceive it differently, so it might not look to them anything like the way Lucifer saw it. Lucifer's role is possibly something like the general manager of a business; if the manager is unavailable, the place can still function because the other employees know what they have to do, but at some point problems will appear they aren't able to handle, and the longer the manager isn't around, the greater the number of issues that start piling up until the business is in real trouble. His statement about people not being punished because he isn't there could simply be hyperbole, the same way a boss could say that nothing is getting done if he isn't there to oversee the place.
47	** So is the main plot of trying to get him to go back rather than forcing him back built on a lie? Alternatively, God is supposed to be the master of even reality and all of nature anywhere anyway. If Hell can be escaped in the first place, how infallible is God? At any time another manager could be promoted?
48	** Season four would indicate that a huge part of Lucifer's role as King of Hell is keeping the demons in line and forbidding them from getting into mischief on Earth. Without him in Hell the demons can torture damned souls just fine... but they also get itchy and bored and consider doing things like possessing the dead. Luckily the demons ''want'' to be ruled so as long as he's there doing it they all obey. As to another "manager" being promoted, Lucifer explicitly states that Hell is set up so that a demon can't rule, only a celestial can sit on the throne; probably why he kept snarking that Amenadiel should take his place if he wanted Hell to have a ruler so badly, and why Amenadiel was so uncomfortable when it was brought up (because he knew that was an entirely valid option).
49	** If the show follows the comic's rules even slightly, then Hell is something that you impose on yourself. Lucifer left because he finally realised that nothing was forcing him to stay down there, and the same applies to every other denizen.
50
51	[[/folder]]
52
53	[[folder:Chloe moving out]]
54
55	* Why did Chloe need to move out of the house and find a roommate when her and Dan decided to divorce? Chole's mother is the owner of the house and surely Dan could have helped pay taxes on the house where his child would be living, provided Chole's mother wasn't paying the taxes already.
56	** I'm pretty sure she stated that she needed to be her own woman and live in the real world instead of relying on her mother. Most likely Chloe was only staying at her mother's place until either she and Dan got back together or made their divorce final.
57	** I seem to recall Chloe drunkenly stating at the bar during girls night out that one of her fears was her and Trixie being homeless. That dialogue indicates that she has to move, like she was being evicted or something.
58	** Considering she was drunk at the time, probably best not to take her word for it.
59	** It's probably ultimately about independence and holding out that they would get back together again. Chloe may not be rich but an LA Detective is not in any danger of being homeless, just of living modestly.
60	** On a rewatch, her mother (basically the exact same character the actress played in Jessica Jones) was making a lot of serious oversteps with Trixie, and tended to throw that she was letting Chloe live in her house in Chloe's face every time they had an argument. Any arguments about being homeless can probably be read as "I'd rather be homeless than put up with this."
61
62	[[/folder]]
63
64	[[folder:Showing Chloe]]
65
66	* If Lucifer can just flash his red eyes at people, why doesn't he show Chloe the red eyes or maybe his "true form" if he wants to prove things to her so badly?
67	** As the latest episode reveals: He doesn't actually want to show her, because he has feelings for her and is scared that she'll run and/or treat him as a monster if she knows the truth.
68	** When Lucifer is around Chloe, he becomes a mortal. Maybe showing her the truth is inhibited by this.
69	*** [[spoiler: Nope, as of season three's finale.]]
70	*** Chloe already saw his red eyes while he was mortal around her - just a minute or two before she's shot his leg back in Season 1; just in reflective surface rather than directly and she couldn't completely comprehend that at the time. And less than 20 second earlier he has shown his "true face" to a criminal (all this time with Chloe within 5-10-15 yards from him). No, he is just afraid to scare her away.
71
72	[[/folder]]
73
74	[[folder:Supernatural beings]]
75
76	* The nature of supernatural beings in this universe is a profoundly confusing matter. At first, you have Lucifer, who appears to be an entirely physical being (capable of being shot, cut, and drunk, however little these affect him long-term) with two forms: the human one and the red, charred one. Maze and Amenadiel seem to follow this trend, with Maze's true face being half-decayed and Amenadiel's true form sprouting [[spoiler: decaying]] wings. But then, there's Lucifer's mother, who appears to lack a physical form entirely: she's able to leave hell as Lucifer did, but has to [[BodySurf Body Surf]] to exist on Earth and can only possess fresh corpses at that. One might assume the other three are similarly possessing corpses, but whereas they can die and resurrect, Lucifer's mother has to jump to a new corpse if her host is killed. The easiest assumption is that her physical form was somehow destroyed by God, but [[spoiler: since Uriel left a corpse when he was "completely destroyed,"]] that seems unlikely. Besides, since the angels and demon are apparently corporeal beings, how could they torture one who was not? And don't even get me started on the ill-defined powers. Lucifer falls but keeps his specialty (persuasion) for ages in Hell, but [[spoiler: Amenadiel falls and loses his specialty (time dilation) after a few months on Earth]]? What gives?
77	** As far as Mum, that one's both very easy and very tricky. Easy because she's one half of the creator of everything including physical existence. She probably doesn't have a physical form to begin with. Why that imposes her particular limitations, hard to say. Given divine power, punishing a non-corporeal thing is probably not an issue. As for their powers, Luci left Heaven and Hell on his own and probably would have used his guile to keep his powers. Amen lost faith, such as it was, or perhaps because Luci's feather was used to prevent his death (which may have gone against God's plans, or otherwise affected his divine purity), God took away those powers, or at least, the ones not inherent to Amen himself. And of course, it's suggested that God's plans for Luci aren't done yet.
78	** There was a scene where Maze expressed delight that Mum now had a physical form because she couldn't figure out a way to physically torture an incorporeal being.
79	*** True, but they were able to psychologically torture her like the other residents. Considering what we see in one episode, it was probably about losing her family over and over again (much like the woman she wound up inhabiting). Demons probably throw in physical torture to heighten or intensify the mental torture they otherwise inflict, and Maze is thinking that her inability to add the physical aspect is why she could never break Mom.
80	* It's entirely possible that God and Goddess are uniquely omniscient beings made of light and will, unbound by dimensional limitations but incapable of reproducing themselves directly. They can create matter in the form of their children and rearrangement of atoms, but ultimately, those creations are inferior in power and capability, bound to physics in ways they are not.
81	[[/folder]]
82
83	[[folder:The Precinct]]
84
85	* What's with the precinct location change between seasons one and two? The precinct in season one looks completely different to the one in season two. What's more is that the S2 precinct was also the one they showed in the flashback during "My Little Monkey". Was this ever explained? Did they change location in universe? Or did Chloe just move to a different part of the building?
86	* Short answer? EarlyInstallmentWeirdness
87
88	[[/folder]]
89
90	[[folder:Lucifer covers Chloe in Pilot]]
91
92	* How could Lucifer survive six shots while covering Chloe in Pilot and then in the finale he presumably "died" from a single shot by Malcolm with Chloe in a dozen yards?
93	** Lucifer just met Chloe in Pilot, do maybe it takes time for her to affect Lucy. And once the effects take hold they start to get stronger, affecting Lucifer from farther away. Just like in the episode where he had to break into the place filled with deadly gas.
94	** Or God intervened.
95	** Pierce comes up with a theory, Chloe, being a miracle baby, can make a celestial mortal if she falls in love with them.
96	** Confirmed as of S3: a lot about celestials is a result of their feelings (devil face, wings, etc.). The vulnerability is caused by Lucifers love for Chloe. In Pilot he just met her, he was intrigued but had no strong feelings for her yet.
97	** Reconfirmed in 5A. Lucifer chooses to make himself vulnerable around Chloe - there's a good chance that he was immortal right until that conversation.
98
99	[[/folder]]
100
101	[[folder:Chloe created for Lucifer?]]
102
103	* Something I never understood about the whole Chloe was placed in Lucifer’s path thing. Amenadiel blessed Chloe’s parents like what? Twenty five years before Lucifer came to LA? I mean does God see the future and knew that Lucifer would choose LA as the place he’d settle for his final leaving of hell?
104	** The episode "Once Upon a Time" strongly suggests that He can. The whole episode is God rearranging reality temporarily to explore the potential for what would have occurred had He intervened in a different manner to set Chloe in Lucifer's path. While the show strays from the comics significantly, one of the main points of the story is that when they say God is omniscient, they mean it in every sense of the word. That's the entire basis for Lucifer's struggle with free will - examining whether it can truly exist in a universe controlled by an all-knowing God.
105	[[/folder]]
106
107	[[folder: Lucifer's mortality]]
108	* I've only seen the first season, so forgive me if I'm wrong, but taking the first season alone, this seems like a pretty major plot hole. At first Lucifer thinks generally being on Earth is making him mortal. Later however it's revealed that specifically being near Chloe is what makes him mortal and that he's invincible if she's nowhere around. However Amenadiel punches up Lucifer on the beach and discovers Lucifer is mortal. This is also explained in that an angel can hurt another angel. Yet if that's the case, why is Amenadiel so shocked to see Lucifer is bleeding? If Angels can hurt Angels just fine then this shouldn't be a surprise for him and he shouldn't think Lucifer is mortal. Chloe also isn't anywhere nearby so it can't be a case that Lucifer is bleeding and Amenadiel can tell it's a normal non Angel inflicted wound. This is a pretty crucial scene as it's where Amenadiel figures out Lucifer can be killed and sets up the entire rest of the show with Malcom, yet it doesn't seem to make any sense with the reveal that his mortality is Chloe centric and that angels could always hurt angels.
109	** Amenadiel already finds this out when Lucifer tells him after almost getting pumped full of lead in the auction backroom. While that is simply a claim with no proof, Amenadiel knows Lucy isn't one to lie. I think Amenadiel was just shocked by Lucifer's words while he was beating into him: "Become like me, become wrath! Fall as I did!" Giving it some thought, he was being no better than Lucifer, then backed off.
110	** Angels/Demons can injure each other. After their fight at the end of S1 (away from Chloe), both Lucifer & Amenadiel have bruises, ditto for Lucifer & Maze after they fought in S2. Angels' invulnerability means they are just impervious to being injured by humans, not each other.
111	[[/folder]]
112
113	[[folder:Punishment in Hell]]
114	* Is this a Plot Marches On thing, or something else? In Season 1 Lucifer makes a couple mentions of how, because he's not in Hell, sinners aren't being punished, most dramatically at the climax of the first episode where he stresses that he needs to torture the suspect ''now'' or he won't suffer at all. Maze is also specifically noted as being a torturer in Hell. But when Hell finally shows up in the series proper, it's portrayed as an IronicHell that functions entirely autonomously, to the point where Lucifer himself gets caught in a cell and forced to relive his deepest regret. If that's the case, why was Lucifer so sure that people weren't going to be punished when they died? And why was Maze's job actually necessary?
115	** Probably more EarlyInstallmentWeirdness. They clearly hadn't quite figured out how Hell works for the purposes of the show yet, so some of the earliest mentions conflict with the later.
116	*** While that explains Lucifer's concerns in Season 1 (at least from a Doylist perspective,) it doesn't explain Maze's purpose in Hell (or indeed the purposes of demons in general.) Even later seasons acknowledge her as personally torturing humans, Abel being one of them, and her being a master of causing people pain is a consistent part of her character. And yet, Hell's punishments are repeatedly stated to be self-inflicted as a result of human guilt, and it's repeatedly implied/stated that nothing will trap you in Hell if you can just let go of your failures/not feel any guilt for your actions. So why continue to claim that the demons like Maze do any torturing at all? What is their actual purpose in Hell if it's not punishing people or keeping them imprisoned?
117	*** We know that demons have some control over the torture environment with Abel, whose hell loop involves being murdered by Cain in multiple different settings, accounting for his grasp of modern languages, suggesting it's not quite fully automatic and the demons determine the precise details of all the punishments and/or demonic torture is reserved for really really bad dudes, although Abel doesn't really seem all that bad; he's a selfish hedonist douchebag but not a CompleteMonster.
118	*** Moreso than that, in the episode Real Sad Devil Guy it's shown that the "people" seen in the guilty soul's Hell loop are the demons themselves, re-enacting the scene that soul feels most guilty about. Without them, most of the loops wouldn't function at all.
119	*** Does this mean that there was a demon in Hell who was forcing Lucifer, their own boss, to relive him stabbing his brother over and over?
120	* In hell, punishment is dealt out because the soul feels guilt over actions committed in life. So it makes sense when people go to hell for murder, or just for being awful. But as revealed in the episode Real Sad Devil Guy, Mr. Said Out Bitch (Lee Garner) [[spoiler: was sent to hell because he felt guilty about not going to his niece's baby shower. It was his last chance to reconnect with his family, and as a result the family broke apart.]] So basically, any guilt in your heart will send you to hell, no matter what you did or didn't do.
121	[[/folder]]
122
123	[[folder:Dan mad at Lucifer]]
124	* In season 4 episode 6 Lucifer gets trapped by falling barrels as the bad guy runs away and guns down a police officer. Dan gets mad and blames Lucifer. Am I missing something? Lucifer is an unarmed civilian consultant. It's absurd to send him after a fleeing suspect in the first place let alone blame him when an armed police officer just stands around letting a gunman raise his gun and shoot her. I get Dan being mad at him for the Sinnerman thing but he's just absurdly stupid at this point.
125	** Detective Douche is really a douche.
126	** When you really hate someone (which Dan did for the majority of the season), even the way they breathe will piss you off. So anything Lucifer did, small or large, it was going to unreasonably piss Dan off.
127	[[/folder]]
128
129	[[folder:(Spoilers) If Pierce is actually...]]
130	* ...Cain, (meaning people like Cain, Abel, Adam and Eve existed) does that mean evolution isn't real in the series's universe? Because I can easily see people conciliating belief in God/angels/demons with evolution, but characters from the Genesis existing literally?
131	**Cain and Abel were said to have been married but we aren't really told much about Adam and Eve's other Children and given Hebrew views of incest there are some theories of there being Pre-Adamic humans, which pokes some holes in the bibles continuity but it's full of contradictions anyway, whats wrong with adding a few more.
132	*** Actually, Bible does mention at least one another son by name (Seth) and "other sons and daughters" in general (Genesis 5:4); some apocrypha name Awan and Azura as daughter of Adam and Eve, twin sisters of Cain and Abel respectively - whoever criticizes the book or discusses its critique should at least read the book in full first.
133	**Probably Old Earth (compatible with Darwinism) - 5B mentions that God is a billion years old and that the K-T extinction was an accident.
134	[[/folder]]
135
136	[[folder:Heaven and Eve]]
137	* Eve is one of the first humans and has spent the most time in Heaven. She has gotten bored of Heaven and decided to just meet and listen to people's stories even meeting Charlotte Richards. Abel is Hell's oldest resident so why has Eve never put two and two together, but she still says "my sweet and gentle Abel".
138	** Denial and/or willful blindness.
139	** Or "sweet and gentle" just means that he's slightly better than Cain in her mind. Or simply ParentalFavouritism.
140	** It's simply that MamaDidntRaiseNoCriminal.
141	[[/folder]]
142
143	[[folder:Why didn't Lucifer care about (Spoiler) dying?]]
144	* The spoiler character in question being [[spoiler:Remiel]]. She's literally [[spoiler:''his sister'']], for Dad's sake!
145	** He seemed pretty upset about it...
146	*** Yeah, but nowhere near his reaction when others die, such as [[spoiler:Charlotte]] or [[spoiler:Daniel]].
147	** For that matter, none of the others angels, beyond Amenadiel and Lucifer, seemed to care about her death.
148	** Simply put, they weren't all that close and the other angels were probably too concerned with toeing the line and avoiding outright war.
149	[[/folder]]
150
151	[[folder:Why didn't God save Uriel?]]
152	* If God does care about the angels and hates when they fight why didn't he step in to save Uriel who was wiped from existence? For that matter why did no one confront God about His failure in this matter? Lucifer and Amendeial both thought God could have and should have stopped it.
153	** God only ever stepped in to begin with in Season 5 because of getting gaslit into believing that he needed to name a successor and decided to use the opportunity to make up with his sons. Beyond that he stays as hands off as possible, no matter who may be in danger.
154	[[/folder]]
155
156
157	[[folder:Who runs the Lux?]]
158	* Lucifer does not strike me as the type person who cares about all the petty details of a running a business such as covering wages or making sure they are properly supplied with alchohol. So who does handle all of that? Or does Lucifer have an actual business side that he devotes at least part of his day to attending to business matters?
159	** He probably does it off-screen.
160	** I always assumed that he had a general manager run the club. Lucifer likes the idea of owning a club and being able to party as much as he wants but he would never enjoy the actual running of the business stuff.
161	** In S1, when Chloe asks Dan to look atLux’s books, it’s Maze that he ends up dealing with. Lucifer also mentions in a couple of offhand moments that Maze handles things like sourcing & supplies & hiring new people. She’s more than just a bartender when it comes to Lux: ''she's'' the general manager, and probably has at least one or two people trained to do at least the basic day-to-day stuff for her when she’s… otherwise occupied.
162	[[/folder]]
163
164	[[folder:What was the true nature of Lucifer's rebellion?]]
165	* This Lucifer isn't as power-hungry or sociopathic as other versions. He doesn't strike me as the type to start a civil war in Heaven. The only thing we know for sure he did was screw around with the Eve in the Garden of Eden which essentially corrupted humanity and the rest of history. Was that it or did Lucifer do something else? It has been mentioned God has/had a tendency to overract and Lucifer ruined whatever God had planned for humans.
166	** He believed he could do a better job as God + Michael's manipulation.
167	[[/folder]]
168
169	[[folder:Why did God ignore Michael's actions?]]
170	* Why did God not hold Michael accountable for his actions especially when what he did was just as bad if not worse than Lucifer? Even when confronted about it he blew them off? Was it really the whole "free will" bit? God blamed himself? Or by that point did God just not care?
171	** Even with Michael manipulating Lucifer into starting a rebellion, it was ultimately Lucifer's decision to do so and thus actions had to be taken against him specifically. As long as they didn't conflict with him directly he was perfectly fine with letting the angels do as they please and letting them police themselves.
172	** As we learn more and more, it reinforces that God is omnipotent. He knows what is happening, why it's happening, and what will happen. Which is also part of why Lucifer is so angry. God isn't just negligent, he's doing it on purpose. And since God allowed Michael to do what he does, God is passively accepting it. When you know all the consequences of your actions, you can't claim that anything is an accident.
173	[[/folder]]
174
175	[[folder:What is Lucifer's Real Beef With His Father?]]
176	* I mean yeah, Lucifer is mad that his dad threw him out of Heaven and banished him to Hell. Fine. But he did rebel and try to overthrow his father and tried to burn down the Silver City. What did he think was going to happen after all of that failed? A slap on the wrist? That would be like you adult son was living with you and then one day decided that HE was the head of the household. Of course you're not going to continue to let him live in your house after something like that.
177	** Combination of two things. Not feeling that God is doing a satisfactory job at being...well, God (this is what Michael preyed upon and led to his rebellion in the first place) and not feeling that God ever showed him or his siblings any sort of actual parental love (while also thinking God is screwing with his life). Due to being narcissistic as he is he often brought the latter to the forefront during his whining but that ultimately fell off as he gained emotional maturity. The former however sat with him all the way to the end of Season 5.
178	** It's also likely that Lucifer knows God is omniscient, so any action God takes are on purpose. And any he doesn't take are also on purpose. Lucifer also feels that all the gentle nudging to maintain free will are a waste of time when an actual conversation and clear goals would do the same job better.
179	[[/folder]]
180	[[folder: Where was Trixie during Ella's rant at the wedding?]]
181	* We know that Trixie was at the wedding reception because Rory spoke with her there. Then Rory, Chloe and Lucifer all step out so Rory can have yet another meltdown. Ella starts up while they're outside. The only other people Trixie would have conceivably left with are Maze or Eve (who aren't leaving their own reception) or possibly Amenadiel who was also there for Ella's rant. So where did Trixie go during this time and if she was in a corner somewhere, what did she think about what she heard?
182	** This does kind of support the "Trixie has always known" hypothesis but it just bothers me that it's not addressed. It's like the writers stuck in a token scene for her with Rory then completely forgot she existed.
183	** To be fair the writers seem to have forgotten Trixie ''a lot'' during this season considering she's hardly in it.
184	** Chloe said a right after the scene with Trixie and Rory that the babysitter was going to take her home, so I think it is safe to assume that they left immediately before Lucifer, Chloe, and Rory walked out.
185	[[/folder]]
186
187	[[folder: Why is Ella so mad at Lucifer?]]
188	* As he rightly points out, he never once lied to her. He always told her the truth about who he was. '''She's''' the one who thought he was an actor. Even when he flat out told her he wasn't and tried to include her when everyone else on Team Lucifer knew. She still insisted he was acting. Why, when she finally figured it out, was she so mad at him about it then? I get everyone else, because they DID lie to her about it. But Lucifer never once tried to hide the fact he was the Devil from her.
189	** To be fair to Ella, while he did not technically lie, he didn't exactly actually push back on the idea of him being a method actor besides the occasional "I'm not an actor" comment either, which is '''exactly''' something an insanely dedicated method actor would say. There's also the fact that she was scared everyone else knew and was keeping her out of the loop to make fun of her (which, given Ella's trust issues after Pete, makes total sense) and watching her bounce up and down with her faith after Charlotte's death when they knew for a fact she was in Heaven.
190	[[/folder]]
191
192	[[folder: Characters sandbagging themselves]]
193	* This happens... rather a lot, but it's particularly egregious in Season 6, episode 10, when Rory is kidnapped to bait Lucifer. Lucifer wants to go alone. It makes sense that he doesn't want Chloe to come with him, that's fairly reasonable thinking from someone in love. But why would they go without any other backup? At the bare minimum, they should have brought Amenadiel, who, most notably, would have been able to fly Chloe to a hospital after she is stabbed, while Lucifer goes on to rescue Rory. And while the fact that he's in Heaven addressing the angels is perhaps somewhat of a valid counterpoint, it also make him very easy to contact, and he absolutely would be there in a flash to help. Additionally, while it makes sense for them to not call Maze and Eve, them being on their honeymoon, and them not wanting to interrupt that, I ''kinda think "my daughter has been kidnapped to bait me into a deathtrap" is a big enough deal to justify asking them to come back!''
194	Alright. So they thought they were going after one man. But they knew Le Mac was 1- aware of Rory's connection to Lucifer and 2- the location that Lucifer is supposed to die at. Therefore, it's quite reasonable for them to realize that Le Mac was aware of what was happening while Dan was possessing him, and so maybe they should not roll in all by themselves, and it would be prudent to bring in as many big guns as they have. Even barring them realizing these things, when they got to the location, and found that Le Mac had men, and they were carrying daggers made from Rory's feathers, they should have immediately called Amenadiel, who has been shown to be able to arrive ''very fast,'' when Lucifer was pranking Dan in Season 5. And even if they didn't want to pull Maze and Eve away from their honeymoon, a quick call to say "Rory's in trouble, and we need backup to save her, who do you trust to roll with us?" would be reasonable. And honestly, there are probably still demons kicking around from Maze and Eve's wedding who could have at least been no-guilt bodies in the way of blades and bullets!
195	It really seems like the only time Lucifer thinks to call in as many favors as he possibly can, it's for something immature like pranking Dan, not for something important.
196	** They panicked, pure and simple. People don't exactly act rationally when their children are in danger, and the fact that it was their own daughter left Chloe and Lucifer in a less than rational state.
197	[[/folder]]
198
199	[[folder: Why did God not have time for Goddess or his family?]]
200	* God claims that his job of being God left him no time for his family. How is that possible? God is a nigh-omnipotant, nigh-omnipresent entity who can control the flow of time. He can create realms where the flow of time in one is much faster than in another. As God he hardly did anyting except a vague presence people felt. Both Lucifer and Amendiael had no problem with the idea they could balance their celestials duties along with family obligations. So why couldn't God? What kept him so busy? Why couldn't he pop on Earth to check on things and focus on heaven?
201	** That's the thing, we don't actually know what God does or how the universe is maintained. We assume that the universe just kinda runs itself after God created it, but we don't actually know that. It may take most of God's time or power to keep the universe running. Maybe the way God originally created the universe required his co stand Imput to keep running buy now that it's been up and running for a few billion years, it doesn't need that contant input any longer.
202	[[/folder]]
203
204	[[folder: Healing powers forgotten ?]]
205	* Earlier in the series we saw Lucifer and Amenadiel healing people, and even Maze healing Amenadiel ( who was mortal at the time) using just one of Lucifer's feathers... This power would have been very useful in multiple parts of the 5th season.
206	[[/folder]]
207
208	[[folder: Why was everyone so sad after Dan died?]]
209	* I mean, I can understand Trixie being sad but why the rest of the cast? They literally are or know God, angels and the devil himself. They literally know that death on earth isn't the end and Lucifer and his brother can literally visit Dan in Heaven or Hell anytime they want. I really makes no sense.
210	** Losing someone is painful even if you know they're still out there. Even if they thought Dan was in Heaven, it's still upsetting that he's not ''there with them''. Besides, as Lucifer is shocked to find out, Dan didn't make it to Heaven but got stuck in Hell due to his inability to forgive himself. Even though Lucifer manages to arrange it so that Dan isn't being tortured and instead plays ping-pong with the demons, the situation still sucks majorly for everyone involved.
211	[[/folder]]
212
213	[[folder: Why does Lucifer's family call him Lucifer?]]
214	I mean, in Heaven his name was Samiel. That's what they all would have know him as. He didn't have that name until after he was banished from heaven so it make no sense for all of his family to call him Lucifer or for his brother to have a cut. Nickname for him in Lucy.
215	* You think it's a plothole that Lucifer's family don't constantly deadname him? Sure, he didn't go by Lucifer until after going to Hell, but it isn't like none of them have seen him since. And sometimes some of his relatives do use his old name, like how Michael did until Lucifer pointedly mispronounced his name, or how God deadnamed him until their relationship started improving. He doesn't respond to it as his name, is less receptive to whatever else they're saying when it's used, and they've had thousands of years in which to get used to his name being Lucifer. Especially Amenadiel, given that he's been sent after Lucifer every time he went to Earth for millennia. There's no reason I can see why he couldn't be used to his brother's name or use a nickname for him just because that name was chosen after they stopped living together. Even though the others don't spend as much time around him as Amenadiel does, the ones he has a semi-cordial relationship with have the basic decency to call him by his name, and even the ones who don't have the incentive that he isn't going to listen to them or do what they're telling him to if they're deadnaming him the whole time.
216	[[/folder]]
217
218	[[folder:Chloe not knowing Charlotte Richards]]
219	* In the flashback episode City of Angels, Chloe meets with Charlotte Richards but doesn’t seem to recognise her when Lucifer’s mother possesses her body in Liar, Liar Slutty Dress on Fire.
220	** This was in 2011, while they met again (Well, Chloe met Lucifers mother) 2017, Chloe probably simply forgot that it was the same lawyer. After all, they didn't deal with each other for that long in 2011 and Charlotte had a different haircut back then. Chloe probably remembers that she dealt with a lawyer back then, but not exactly who it was.
221	[[/folder]]
222
223	[[folder: Lucifer's scars]]
224	* Lucifer's scars are from where Maze cut his wings off, so how come they don't have any indication of a joint or bone? Like, yeah, having a wing socket sticking out of his back would have been really gross, but if the wings are supposed to attach to his body as limbs and have a place in his skeleton, they wouldn't just be held in place by the kind of flesh that heals into the scars we saw.
225	** They aren't a part of his skeleton, at least not in a straightforward anatomical way like a biological creature would need them to be. You'll notice that angels don't usually have their wings out, they manifest them when needed. They are spiritual as much as physical and it's doubtful they move by anything as prosaic as bones. Notably when we see the severed wings in ''Wingman'' there's just chunks of flesh at the point they'd join with his back and no sign of any bones.
226	[[/folder]]
227
228	[[folder: Guilt Condemns A Person?]]
229	* If simply feeling guilty for something, even if you know intellectually that you didn't do anything wrong, or don't even consciously know why you're feeling guilty (as is the case with Dan in the last season), condemns a person to hell, why isn't hell in this universe filled with people with anxiety disorders (or people whose strong consciences prevented them from doing anything bad), and free of actual psychopaths or fanatics who don't feel guilty? The first human to learn the nature of hell was a certified therapist, who worried about going to hell for a time, so why wasn't this brought up?

Context Headscratchers / Lucifer2016