Line #51 Headscratchers/AMidsummerNightsDream


1	[[WMG:Demetrius is essentially fed a date rape drug and forced to marry his stalker. How is that a happy ending?]]
2	* "If we spirits have offended, think but this and all is mended: That you did but slumber here, as these visions did appear." Translation: If you don't like it, it was AllJustADream.
3	* When my school did this, the undoing of the love spell involved a surreal DisneyAcidSequence puppet dance, so that it was unclear whether Demetrius was still under the spell or not, or at least distracted the audience enough so that they didn't notice.
4	* The entire play revolves around the story of fairies casting magic spells on humans, and the love-potion is brewed from Cupid's arrow. It symbolizes the apparently random way humans fall in love with each other--so if you're looking for a tragic ending to the story, it would be that love is a completely random and arbitrary force that will get you in a lot of trouble, and you might just fall out of it just as easily.
5	* Poetic justice since he tried to force another girl he was essentially stalking to marry him.
6	* Shakespeare was ahead of his time when it came to EstrogenBrigade FanService?
7	* 99% of the time, if something bothers you in Shakespeare then it was supposed to. The resolution of love in MSND is something very difficult to decode, since it does rely heavily on taking away free will, but love in Shakespeare is often a matter of youth, a time of fiery conclusion, finding its way to settle and compromise into adulthood, rather than finding that things resolve in perfect and happy ways. There's a reason that Romeo and Juliet were too cute to live. Still, while this compromise often happens, we're not necessarily supposed to be entirely cool with it.
8	* On the other hand, the feeding of the potion to Demetrius could be read as not a "love potion" but of a disenchantment, which clears his eyes and lets him see the truth of Helena's affection, whom he actually has chemistry with rather than Hermia, to whom he's an ass and has none. Furthermore, if his love for Helena is enchanted, it puts the choice in her hands, who, while previously disenfranchised by her love, had matured considerably over the play, and while still in love, had gained some strength and dignity.
9	* I can't feel too much sympathy for him considering he was, you know, threatening to rape her in the woods. Serves him right for using and abusing her to begin with.
10	** Eh, I guess it depends on the production you see, but I always saw those two lines as empty threats to try to get rid of her, ones which horribly backfire when she JumpedAtTheCall.
11	* It's more of a marrying his stalker ex-girlfriend. Demetrius was courting Helena (and apparently quite happy with the arrangement) until he dumped her for Hermia. The love potion could just have reminded him of what he and Helena used to have.
12	* The simple explanation is that Demetrius is just as much a victim of the social pressures of the time as Lysander and Hermia. He doesn't really love Hermia; he just knows it's a good marriage, even if an arranged one, and respects the wishes of her father. It's only when the love juice is applied that he experiences real love for the first time. You'll notice that until that point he doesn't actually refer to Hermia with any affection other than that of an object which rightfully belongs to him rather than Lysander.
13	** But he does. Like, all the time. "Relent, sweet Hermia..." (I.i.91), "And here am I, and wood within this wood, / Because I cannot meet my Hermia" (II.i.192-193), "O why rebuke you him that loves you so?" (III.ii.43). In fact, he acts as obsessive and melodramatic as Lysander does when under the love-potion's spell... [[FridgeBrilliance hmmm]].
14	*** In that case, then doesn't drugging him rescue him from spending the rest of his life in unrequited love anyway?
15	* Or there's always the point that we are dealing with TheFairFolk here. They don't necessarily have Demetrius' best interests at heart.
16	* This troper actually wrote an essay on the shifts in power play between the four lovers. Pre-love potion, Lysander and Hermia are with their true love, so Lysander treats both of them with kindness and affection, whereas Demetrius thinks only of himself and his emotions. During the love potion, it gets switched -- ''Demetrius'' treats both Helena and Hermia with kindness and respect, whereas Lysander doesn't give a damn about either of them, caring only for his emotions. The love potion basically grants stupidly strong desire, which was what Demetrius was feeling. When reapplied, it cancels itself out, and he acts as his true character is -- someone in love with Helena who is essentially decent. So, to answer the question: Demetrius hasn't been forced to marry his stalker -- you could argue he was in a self-made date rape drug that he got kicked out of thanks to the elixir.
17	* It's unlikely the audience would have been too offended by a man being forced to marry a girl he already had sex with, as Lysander notes Demetrius did when trying to make his case that he, and not Demetrius, should marry Hermia.
18	** They did not have sex--in Demetrius and Helena's first conversation he clearly states she is a virgin, specifically that she shouldn't be out in the woods risking the loss of her virginity to rapists. Lysander says Demetrius "made love" to her, which at that time just meant charming someone.
19	* Two points: First, Demetrius may be happy for the wrong reasons, but he's still quite contented with Helena. Second, this arrangement allows the other three to be with their loves without any interference, so it might be that Demetrius's free will was considered a necessary sacrifice to ensure that things turned out right for everyone else. Third, as others have pointed out, he did love Helena at some point and still had a degree of affection for her (at least to the point of not wanting her hurt), so the mental damage should be minimal to nonexistent.
20	* Also worth noting is that at the end of the play Demetrius, while still in love with Helena, is behaving far more rationally, suggesting the magical effect has settled down to something more stable. The idea that fairy magic wears off come morning was part of their mythology and Shakespeare even referenced it (albeit with Titania and Oberon noting it doesn't apply to them, being too powerful, but then they weren't doing the spell, Puck was).
21	* The 2016 Creator/RussellTDavies film gets around this headscratcher by having Puck de-spell Demetrius during the final dance number... and he kisses Helena anyway of his own free will, showing that he did really love her even without the magic.
22	* There are two things to keep in mind, which nobody but me seems to do for some reason. First of all, this potion is from Cupid's arrow. In other words, this play clearly takes place in a world where it's Cupid's romance-inducing arrows that create love in the hearts of humans. So really, he's just fallen in love not by his own choice but by Cupid's magic powers, the way people usually do in the world of this play. It's just administered by Puck and not by Cupid himself.\
23	Secondly, from his point of view it is a happy ending. Now, I'm of course not suggesting that you should drug people into loving you--all I'm saying is that from Demetrius's POV, all that's happened is that his affections changed and he now loves a woman who loves him back. There's no indication that it feels any different to him than if the feelings had arisen naturally. (And like I said, the presence of Cupid in this play suggests that this is as natural as romantic feelings get in AMND.)
24	* Isn't Egeus ordering Demetrius to marry Hermia? By Athenian law, a father's word trumps everything except a monarch's (which is why Theseus allowing Lysander to marry her overrules him) -- so Demetrius actually has very little choice in the matter. He was going to marry Helena, but Egeus wanted him to marry Hermia -- so it's possible to read his 'wooing' as little more than obligation because a man that ranks higher than he wants him to marry his daughter. Helena is not his 'stalker' -- she was his fiancée in all but name until she randomly got jilted. You can read Helena's actions less as clingy stalking than someone trying to work out why their partner has gone cold on them and doing whatever she can to rekindle the relationship. Demetrius did not love Hermia, Lysander did, so the happy ending is them getting to marry. With that in effect, Demetrius probably would return to Helena anyway.
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26	[[WMG: It's Hermia we should be worried about. If we go with the theory Demetrius is revealing his true nature once he's potioned up, doesn't that mean Lysander is a horrible, abusive prick? ]]
27	* But then again, we can easily discount that theory -- most especially as the 'true nature' doesn't take effect with Titania, who literally becomes blind to physical defection once she is put under.
28	* It's worth noting that when under the influence of the spell Lysander expresses a desire that Hermia not come to any harm even as he pursues Helena. Demetrius does no such thing. As such Lysander, even when enthralled, still cares about her suggesting his true feelings are coming through. The "true nature" argument with Demetrius doesn't follow that that would be the effect with everyone.
29	** Lysander was also the first person to be given the love juice, so maybe Puck just messed up and gave him too much?
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31	[[WMG:Why does Oberon care so much about the love problems of a couple humans?]]
32	* He doesn't, he's just bored.
33	* Also, he's pissed off at Titania and wants to take it out on someone.
34	* [[{{Pfat 417}} I]] always figured that fairy morality was incomprehensible to humans, so the reason for his motives was not meant to be figured out.
35	* I always thought it was an author saving throw. Before he's come across as a bastard at best, pervy at worst (WHY does he want that kid so badly?) I for one wouldn't appreciate it if I was forced to fall in love with a jackass (excuse incredibly lazy pun). By feeling sympathy for Helena, it shows he has a good side.
36	** One AlternateCharacterInterpretation is that Oberon and Titania are becoming more human (thereby partially explaining why they're feuding now) and part of Oberon's plots is a combination of PetTheDog and trying to understand WhatIsThisThingYouCallLove. Whereas before, he and Titania slept about (as seen in their comments about Theseus and Hippolyta), now Oberon is starting to feel jealous of her attentions -- the Indian boy can be seen as one of the first things they haven't shared -- and he doesn't understand why he should feel this way. Helena and Demetrius come through and decides that he can at least make one couple happy. Of course, HilarityEnsues, but that's Shakespeare for you.
37	* Because he had already asked Puck to get the flower so that he could enchant Titania and figuring that since Puck already had the flower and was going to use it, he may as well get the pesky humans out of the forest by enchanting Demetrius with the love juice.
38	* Aren't god-like beings usually motivated by empathy? Helena's troubles at the point of the subplot intersection are similar to Oberon's; he just knows how to fix them.
39	** When I was in a production of MSND, this is how it was interpreted. Oberon is impressed with the strength of Helena's love for Demetrius -- who clearly wants nothing to do with her -- and that she's being proactive by chasing after her man instead of waiting around for someone to chase her. Oberon has the means and the might to make a miserable person happy, so he does.
40	* Again, he's one of TheFairFolk. His morality is complex at best.
41	* He saw Helena and Demetrius and happened to feel sorry for Helena. It seems that this brand of fairy is generally beneficent towards mortals under all the pranks and jokes, and helping Helena cost him only the tiniest spark of effort. Basically, it's roughly equivalent to feeling sorry for some homeless person on the street and giving them a dollar.
42	* Perhaps he also saw a bit of himself in her. He seemed to feel that Titania had displaced her affections for him onto the changeling boy and was feeling lonely -- so he sympathised with this woman who got jilted by her former lover in favour of another woman who doesn't even want him.
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44	[[WMG: Why does Helena immediately assume that Hermia is also making fun of her?]]
45	* When Lysander and Demetrius start fawning over Helena, Hermia walks in and is immediately upset. Helena jumps to the conclusion that all three of them are conspiring to play a cruel joke on her. Why wouldn't she just assume that Lysander and Demetrius have conspired against her? Why wouldn't she have perceived that Hermia was ''not'' acting?
46	** Because she's tired, confused, hurt and very angry. She's not really thinking clearly.
47	*** Also, her self-esteem has been pretty well trampled by the time the play starts anyway.
48	*** And since she thought that it was obvious that the two men were playing a joke on her, she probably expected Hermia to say something like, "Stop picking on the poor girl." (except, you know, in verse and all that.) When Hermia instead treated the "obvious joke" as if it was real, Helena assumed Hermia must have been in on it.
49	*** Plus she knows Lysander well enough to know that he would never hurt Hermia in order to play such a joke on her.
50	** Hermia also immediately accuses Helena of stealing Lysander. It's said that the two of them grew up together and were close friends, so Helena is taking offence to such a statement -- and assuming that Hermia has to be in on this cruel joke. Hermia pretty quickly jumps to accusing Helena of doing something, as opposed to assuming that the men are joking, so that gave Helena even more reason to think Hermia was part of the game.
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52	[[WMG: In all the worrying about the humans, nobody worries about Titania?]]
53	* Her offense is to have custody of a child her now-estranged husband wants. To get the child, he sends one of his servants to get a powerful mind-altering drug and force her to fall in love with some sort of hideous monster, with the intention of humiliating her. Then, while she's drugged out of her mind, he takes the kid.
54	** Fairies are just screwed up like that. shrugs
55	** This troper just wonders how long that "happy ending" for the two will last. Her last line in the play is to ask her husband why she was lying on the ground with Bottom. Unless he can come up with one really convincing lie, chances are that she'll be suspicious and pick up where they left off.
56	** My personal theory is that, by the time the play starts, Titania and Oberon's argument over the changeling has become a matter of pride more than anything else, and when he finally takes the boy she's sort of relieved that it's over. After all, they're husband and wife. Once they reconcile and become "new in amity" they could easily become the boy's adoptive parents and raise him together.
57	** Also, most versions of the Fae are constantly playing games with each other, and changelings are often the playing pieces. Oberon won this game, Titania can have another go later. Sucks to be the boy, but for the King and Queen this is business as usual.
58	** Exactly. Likely Oberon will give the kid something to do in his court and promptly forget he exists and Titania would probably have done similar if Oberon hadn't made a conflict of it. The game is what matters, not the result.
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60	[[WMG: Somebody explain the timeline of this story.]]
61	Start of the play: 4 days before the full moon -- Hermia is given the choice between marrying Demetrius, consecration as a perpetual virgin, or death.
62
63	Next night: 3 days before the full moon -- Hermia and Lysander flee under the cover of night to get married, fairies get involved and resolve the mess.
64
65	Morning comes: Full moon and Thesus' wedding day. What happened to the other two days?
66	* I think "fairies get involved" probably answers that. Time getting screwy when the fair folk show up is to be expected.
67	** According to folklore, no time at all passes in fairyland.
68	** Not all folklore. According to other folklore, time passes a lot faster in fairyland -- think RipVanWinkle.
69	*** Except Rip met up with ghosts, not fairies.
70	*** True, but the same concept applies. Time passes in fairyland as fast as the fairies want it to. Maybe Oberon didn't want to wait to watch the wedding?
71	* It all happens in one or two days. Shakespeare wasn't sure how long the events would take when he started writing, and he forgot to edit the beginning when he was done.
72	** Sometimes older writers didn't always care about continuity issues. Shakespeare is no exception.
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74	[[WMG: Titania wants to keep and raise the changeling boy to honour her dead friend whose son he is, and Oberon because... he wants a servant. What world is he in to consider his claim on this particular child to be ''anywhere'' near as worthy as Titania's?]]
75	* Basically, the entire reason that he wants the child is, as far as I can tell, that Titania considers herself to have a right to the boy. Or Oberon assumes that since he's the man in the relationship, his will must be prioritized.
76	** Perhaps Oberon is annoyed that Titania is spending more time with the boy and less with him. Maybe he's just jealous and it's not really about the boy, but really about her. Perhaps he feels if he has the child, he can control how much time Titania dotes on him.
77	* "Page" doesn't mean "servant". Male children of noble families were sent to train as pages when they reached a certain age, often as fosters in another noble household; girl children stayed home. Page was the first step toward knighthood, so it was a necessary part of a man's growing up. Titania is supposed to be in the wrong: by refusing to let the changeling leave her, she was being MyBelovedSmother or worse. In contemporary terms she would be a co-dependent woman refusing to let her child go to school because she "needed" him with her.
78	* Worth noting is that, whatever Titania's fondness for his mother, at no point did she state she was asked to take him in. The kid is a changeling, which TheFairFolk take when they feel like it. Neither faerie monarch has any legal human right to the boy. Oberon's "right" comes from "I'm king of the faeries and I want this" and Titania's is the same with an emotional connection.
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80	[[WMG: Why does Lysander under the spell harbour such horrible ''hatred'' towards Hermia?]]
81	* If the effect of the spell is to replace his love for Hermia with love for the first person he sees, where on earth did all that hatred come from? He's far more abusive to her than Demetrius was to Helena when she was following him into the wood. Wouldn't it have been enough just to tell Hermia "I don't love you anymore", rather than saying "I ''hate'' you" and showering her with a long stream of vile insults that start crossing over into WhyWouldAnyoneTakeHimBack territory?
82	** Because the spell clearly makes people crazy in addition to the love. Titania didn't seem to care that she was spending the night with a donkey-human hybrid. Puck administers the love juice, and he's just a child, so maybe he doesn't know how to do it in safe doses. Oberon does, which is why things calm down.
83	*** Oberon specifically told Puck to be excessive with the love juice: "Effect it with some care, that he may prove more fond on her than she upon her love." Although it's possible Puck went a bit more overboard than Oberon intended.
84	** This makes a little more sense if you know how the Ancient Greeks viewed romantic love. They saw it more as a madness or infatuation that struck suddenly like a sickness -- and made people do foolish things. For example, Helen of Troy was bewitched by Aphrodite into falling in love with Paris and eloping with him even when she knew it would start a war. Lysander and Hermia's love is said to be natural by Oberon, whereas his infatuation with Helena is unnatural and induced by magic -- meaning he acts crazier and more irrational. Shakespeare was using the Greek attitude towards love as a counterpoint to the more mainstream attitude.
85	** He probably also thinks it's Hermia's fault that Helena rejects him. It's because Helena knows he loved Hermia that she refuses to believe his sudden declarations of love for her. Of course it's unfair to blame Hermia for that, but LoveMakesYouCrazy, especially when it's induced by magic.
86	* Another possibility is that on some level he still knows he loves her (notably he makes a point later of declaring that he hopes she comes to no harm, something Demetrius never mentions) so he reacts more violently to her due to the mental conflict between what he is being magically forced to feel and what he really feels. Demetrius by contrast was never really in love with Hermia, at least not as much as Lysander.
87	** This is probably it. Lysander's love for Hermia was real, and being magically compelled to love someone else did a number on his psyche.

Context Headscratchers / AMidsummerNightsDream