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* MagnificentBastard: Many villains, given the setting, though the one who pulls it off with the most aplomb is likely Giovanni Villanova, the most powerful Prince of Voddace; he's explicitly a {{sociopath}} who thoroughly enjoys [[ObviouslyEvil looking]] and [[CardCarryingVillain acting]] the villain he is, but he's so ''good'' at what he does that people still can't help but to get entangled in any number of his sinister plots. Oh, and he's [[AuthorityEqualsAsskicking one of the setting's greatest swordsmen]] [[spoiler:as well as a member of NOM's Council of Thirteen]].


* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''well enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in fighting or killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!

to:

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike morality]][[note]](unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) aliens]])[[/note]] or to clumsily justify their mindset (they [[note]](they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''well enough'') enough'')[[/note]] collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in fighting or killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!


*** Setting wise, the first edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, giving players more varied places to visit, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, while the Second Edition abandoned many of the more controversial aspects of the First Edition's metaplot, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own, losing out on the feel of mystery and discovery that its predecessor enjoyed whether or not the revelations were satisfying.

to:

*** Setting wise, the first edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, giving players more varied places to visit, visit and dramatically increasing the number of possible player concepts a party could contain, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, while the Second Edition abandoned many of the more controversial aspects of the First Edition's metaplot, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own, losing out on the feel of mystery and discovery that its predecessor enjoyed whether or not the revelations were satisfying.


*** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, giving players more varied places to visit, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, while the Second Edition abandonned many of the more controversial aspects of the First Edition's metaplot, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.

to:

*** Settings Setting wise, First the first edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, giving players more varied places to visit, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, while the Second Edition abandonned abandoned many of the more controversial aspects of the First Edition's metaplot, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.own, losing out on the feel of mystery and discovery that its predecessor enjoyed whether or not the revelations were satisfying.



* ItsEasySoItSucks: A common complaint about Second Edition. A "success" requires one set of 10 (dice totals added up to 10) to accomplish any task. If a player rolls 3 dice, they only have a 15% chance of failure. On average, a player will roll 4 dice, and a min-maxer can position themselves to roll a dozen. The GM can set "consequences" that need to be bought off, but a player can simply declare they will roll to persuade the Emperor of Montaigne to make them his heir- and odds are that it will happen.
** All wounds are healed immediately after combat ends.
** Brute squads are treated as an inconvenience at best. A player can easily destroy a full strength squad within one round, maybe two.
* ItsHardSoItSucks: A common complaint about First Edition. For what was meant to be a game about heroic swashbucklers doing heroic things, a lot of players felt the game was really stingy with the character points, really encouraged a KillerGameMaster mindset in the GM, gave the setting's Villains ''huge'' amounts of political and military power at their disposal compared to Heroic equivalents, and had an odd fixation on the out-of-place cosmic horror aspect. The default roll difficulties meant that a character who wanted any chance of accomplishing basic tasks had to really specialize in them, to the point of being crippled in all other areas, and being a Sorcerer or Swordsman (which many considered the main appeal of the game) cost so many points it practically forced one to buy a Hubris - which the books flat out instructed the GM to treat as a carte blanche to screw with the player. It didn't help that the only {{Non Player Character}}s given stats tended to be major players in the metaplot, with levels of competence players couldn't even imagine getting - creating the impression that, at best, all they could hope for was to play second fiddle for [=GMPCs=] or be slaughtered by villains the books seemed more enamored with than themselves. Whether the fanbase was just unappeasable, the developers went too far trying to fix the problem, or everything was fine and the complainers were a minority is still up to debate.

to:

* ItsEasySoItSucks: A common complaint about Second Edition. A "success" requires one set of 10 (dice totals added up to 10) to accomplish any task. If a player rolls 3 dice, they only have a 15% chance of failure. On average, a player will roll 4 dice, and a min-maxer can position themselves to roll a dozen. The GM can set "consequences" that need to be bought off, but a player can simply declare they will roll to persuade the Emperor of Montaigne to make them his heir- and odds are that it will happen.
** All
Also, all wounds are healed immediately after combat ends.
** Brute squads are treated as an inconvenience at best. A player can easily destroy a full strength squad within one round, maybe two.
combat, rather than "dramatic wounds" requiring surgery.
* ItsHardSoItSucks: A common complaint about First Edition. For what was meant to be a game about heroic swashbucklers doing heroic things, a lot of players felt the game was really stingy with the character points, really encouraged a KillerGameMaster mindset in the GM, gave the setting's Villains ''huge'' amounts of political and military power at their disposal compared to Heroic equivalents, and had an odd fixation on the out-of-place cosmic horror aspect.aspect many parties and character concepts might never encounter at all. The default roll difficulties meant that a character who wanted any chance of accomplishing basic tasks had to really specialize in them, to the point of being crippled in all other areas, and being a Sorcerer or Swordsman (which many considered the main appeal of the game) cost so many points it practically forced one to buy a Hubris - which the books flat out instructed the GM to treat as a carte blanche to screw with the player. It didn't help that the only {{Non Player Character}}s given stats tended to be major players in the metaplot, with levels of competence players couldn't even imagine getting - creating the impression that, at best, all they could hope for was to play second fiddle for [=GMPCs=] or be slaughtered by villains the books seemed more enamored with than themselves. Whether the fanbase was just unappeasable, the developers went too far trying to fix the problem, or everything was fine and the complainers were a minority is still up to debate.



* MoralEventHorizon: Built into the rules, a PC who hits -30 reputation points becomes a villain (unless the character's been framed; only "earned" negative reputation points count), and the GM takes away their character sheet. Although a Machiavelli-style Advantage will put it off to -40 or -50, depending on how strongly the ends justify the means.

to:

* MoralEventHorizon: Built into the rules, a PC character, including an NPC, who hits -30 reputation points becomes a villain Villain (unless the character's been framed; only "earned" negative reputation points count), and the GM takes away their character sheet. Although a Machiavelli-style Advantage will put it off to -40 or -50, depending on how strongly the ends justify the means.



** Furthermore, [[MonsterAdventurers Sidhe PCs]] have many problems of their own. They [[CrutchCharacter start the game with many potent, practical advantages, balanced by restrictions on the skills and advantages they can and can't learn]], but then ''cannot gain Drama dice'', meaning they [[CantCatchUp will never be able to gain or spend experience points]]. In other words, they overshadow other characters to begin with, then are overshadowed later on.
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''well enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!

to:

** Furthermore, [[MonsterAdventurers Sidhe PCs]] have many problems of their own. They [[CrutchCharacter start the game with many potent, practical advantages, only somewhat balanced by restrictions on the skills and advantages they can and can't learn]], but then ''cannot gain Drama dice'', meaning they [[CantCatchUp will never be able to gain or spend experience points]]. In other words, they overshadow other starting characters to begin with, then are overshadowed later on.
on as they never learn or improve.
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''well enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in fighting or killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!


*** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, in wholesale abandoning many of the more-controversial aspects of the metaplot covered in the first entry, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.

to:

*** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, giving players more varied places to visit, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, in wholesale abandoning while the Second Edition abandonned many of the more-controversial more controversial aspects of the metaplot covered in the first entry, First Edition's metaplot, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.


** Since the release of the Second Edition, which introduced major changes in both the gameplay and the settings, there are debates over which edition is better. Fans of the First enjoy it for having a fairly deep system of swordfighting and customization that encouraged thematic choices, and feel that the Second is a bit schizophrenic about whether it wants to be a ďstory gameĒ or a crunchier experience. Fans of the Second Edition like the easier gameplay because it makes the players feel more like the heroic swashbucklers they're supposed to be, something that the First Edition had more trouble depicting because of its higher difficulty.
** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, in wholesale abandoning many of the more-controversial aspects of the metaplot covered in the first entry, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.

to:

** Since the release of the Second Edition, which introduced major changes in both the gameplay and the settings, there are debates over which edition is better. Fans better:
*** Gameplay wise, fans
of the First enjoy it for having a fairly deep system of swordfighting and customization that encouraged thematic choices, and feel that the Second is a bit schizophrenic about whether it wants to be a ďstory gameĒ or a crunchier experience. Fans of the Second Edition like the easier gameplay because it makes the players feel more like the heroic swashbucklers they're supposed to be, something that the First Edition had more trouble depicting because of its higher difficulty.
** *** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of that depth and detail, plus diluting the "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a single time and place. Also, in wholesale abandoning many of the more-controversial aspects of the metaplot covered in the first entry, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.


** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make internal sense, since itís effectively a Europe with almost no other cultural influence. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of the depth and detail, as well as the tight focus on a specific time period and place.

to:

** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make internal external sense, since itís effectively a Europe that developed to about the point of the early modern period with almost no other cultural influence. influence, plus two tiny "empires" based on [[ArabianNightsDays the Middle East]] and [[{{Wutai}} east Asia]], dwarfed by the other nations, whose history and culture ''also'' don't make external sense. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of the that depth and detail, as well as plus diluting the tight focus "swashbuckling" feel of focusing on a specific single time period and place.place. Also, in wholesale abandoning many of the more-controversial aspects of the metaplot covered in the first entry, it did not replace them with other conspiracies and "secret lore" of its own.



* TierInducedScrappy: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are explicitly not supposed to be enemies players can best in violent combat, so as to encourage players to [[PuzzleBoss out-think, rather than out-fight them, and defeat them with creative solutions]]. In fact, the game goes out of its way to make clear that just owning the weapons that can hurt and kill them permanently is grounds to be hunted down and subjected to a FateWorseThanDeath by the rest of the faerie race, and that every faerie feels it when one of their own gets offed for good. This unfortunately makes the advantages one can take to own or know how to make such weapons nearly useless, and begs the question of why the game designers even included such an option at all.
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!

to:

* TierInducedScrappy: TierInducedScrappy:
**
[[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are explicitly not supposed to be enemies players can best in violent combat, so as to encourage players to [[PuzzleBoss out-think, rather than out-fight them, and defeat them with creative solutions]]. In fact, the game goes out of its way to make clear that just owning the weapons that can hurt and kill them permanently is grounds to be hunted down and subjected to a FateWorseThanDeath by the rest of the faerie race, and that every faerie feels it when one of their own gets offed for good. This unfortunately makes the advantages one can take to own or know how to make such weapons nearly useless, and begs the question of why the game designers even included such an option options at all.
** Furthermore, [[MonsterAdventurers Sidhe PCs]] have many problems of their own. They [[CrutchCharacter start the game with many potent, practical advantages, balanced by restrictions on the skills and advantages they can and can't learn]], but then ''cannot gain Drama dice'', meaning they [[CantCatchUp will never be able to gain or spend experience points]]. In other words, they overshadow other characters to begin with, then are overshadowed later on.
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') ''well enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!

Added DiffLines:

** Settings wise, First edition focused very deeply on events on a single continent, for heavy and rich intrigue, but at the cost of a smaller world that didnít necessarily make internal sense, since itís effectively a Europe with almost no other cultural influence. Second sought to broaden the world enormously, but at the cost of losing much of the depth and detail, as well as the tight focus on a specific time period and place.


** Since the release of the Second Edition, which introduced major changes in both the gameplay and the settings, there are debates over which edition is better. Fans of the First usually like it more because it's harder and more challenging, and think that the Second became too easy. Fans of the Second Edition like the easier gameplay because it makes the players feel more like the heroic swashbucklers they're supposed to be, something that the First Edition had more trouble depicting because of its bigger difficulty.

to:

** Since the release of the Second Edition, which introduced major changes in both the gameplay and the settings, there are debates over which edition is better. Fans of the First usually like enjoy it more because it's harder for having a fairly deep system of swordfighting and more challenging, customization that encouraged thematic choices, and think feel that the Second became too easy. is a bit schizophrenic about whether it wants to be a ďstory gameĒ or a crunchier experience. Fans of the Second Edition like the easier gameplay because it makes the players feel more like the heroic swashbucklers they're supposed to be, something that the First Edition had more trouble depicting because of its bigger higher difficulty.


* BrokenBase: Several ideas of the first edition metaplot were contentious and divisive, most notably [[spoiler: the alien Syrneth creating humanity, probably as a slave race, the Thalusi/Strangers being behind the Bargain and having a very active role in Thean history, and the man most of Theah knows as the Third Prophet actually being an impostor who orchestrated the murder of the actual Third Prophet, with only the Knights of the Rose and Cross knowing the truth.]] At least [[spoiler: the eventual reveal that Theus is actually an ancient alien demiurge himself, if a thoroughly-benevolent one actually behind much of what was attributed to him in history]] is safely and emphatically optional.

to:

* BrokenBase: BrokenBase:
**
Several ideas of the first edition metaplot were contentious and divisive, most notably [[spoiler: the alien Syrneth creating humanity, probably as a slave race, the Thalusi/Strangers being behind the Bargain and having a very active role in Thean history, and the man most of Theah knows as the Third Prophet actually being an impostor who orchestrated the murder of the actual Third Prophet, with only the Knights of the Rose and Cross knowing the truth.]] At least [[spoiler: the eventual reveal that Theus is actually an ancient alien demiurge himself, if a thoroughly-benevolent one actually behind much of what was attributed to him in history]] is safely and emphatically optional.optional.
** Since the release of the Second Edition, which introduced major changes in both the gameplay and the settings, there are debates over which edition is better. Fans of the First usually like it more because it's harder and more challenging, and think that the Second became too easy. Fans of the Second Edition like the easier gameplay because it makes the players feel more like the heroic swashbucklers they're supposed to be, something that the First Edition had more trouble depicting because of its bigger difficulty.


* LighterAndSofter: The Second Edition's setting is this compared both to real history and the first edition. The game's developers made a conscious decision to make their fantasy version of the 17th century free of many of the prejudices and forms of oppression which dominated the world back in the day, both in order to include the largest amount of Hero concepts possible and because they didn't want their idealistic, swashbuckling vision marred by such ugliness. Places where men and women are not seen as equal, LGBT persons are not openly accepted, or members of racial or religious minorities are despised are ''the exception'', not the rule. While slavery and genocide do exist, they are always committed by capital V Villains and are usually stopped sooner rather than later by capital H Heroes. Compared to the First Edition, the 2E setting is also considerably lighter on seemingly omnipotent villains, unstoppable monsters and cosmic horror elements.


* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!

to:

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are murderous sadistic, often-murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!


* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, so no only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on them!

to:

* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, and to have them hunted and killed even if they win, so no not only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on them!an idea he didn't know the book told the GM to punish him for having!


* PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad: Some fans believe that the attempt to make the Second Edition setting LighterAndSofter either went too far or was done too unsubtly in order to make the game look "progressive". Some of the complaints are that many major {{Non Player Character}}s that were imported from the First Edition had their sexes, genders or sexualities shifted. John Wick has said he has no problem with these critiques, and points out that there is nothing stopping players from using the First Edition setting with Second Edition rules or- vice versa. However, he is quite clear in the 7th Sea Official Podcast that Second Edition is not a continuation from the prior game line, but a complete update and that its changes are here to stay.

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* PoliticalCorrectnessGoneMad: Some fans believe that the attempt to make the Second Edition setting LighterAndSofter either went too far or was done too unsubtly in order to make the game look "progressive". Some of the complaints are that many major {{Non Player Character}}s that were imported from the First Edition had their sexes, genders or sexualities shifted. John Wick has said he has no problem with these critiques, and points out that there is nothing stopping players from using the First Edition setting with Second Edition rules or- vice versa. However, he is quite clear in the 7th Sea Official Podcast that Second Edition is not a continuation from the prior game line, but a complete update and that its changes are here to stay.stay.
* TierInducedScrappy: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are explicitly not supposed to be enemies players can best in violent combat, so as to encourage players to [[PuzzleBoss out-think, rather than out-fight them, and defeat them with creative solutions]]. In fact, the game goes out of its way to make clear that just owning the weapons that can hurt and kill them permanently is grounds to be hunted down and subjected to a FateWorseThanDeath by the rest of the faerie race, and that every faerie feels it when one of their own gets offed for good. This unfortunately makes the advantages one can take to own or know how to make such weapons nearly useless, and begs the question of why the game designers even included such an option at all.
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: [[FairFolk The Goode Folke]] are clearly supposed to be somewhat-sympathetic. Their coming back into the world is important for the well-being of both Avalon and, given [[spoiler: the nature of the barrier they created to keep the Thalusi Syrneth at bay]], the rest of Theah. And two of their three rulers, plus Jack O'Bannon, all have the highest possible ratings on the KarmaMeter. It's unfortunate, then, that the entire race are murderous parasites who hurt and kill human beings for fun, and the books' attempts at trying to put them [[AboveGoodAndEvil beyond]] [[BlueAndOrangeMorality morality]] (unlike other such characters, the Sidhe ''do'' have hero/villain demarcations and Reputation scores, and the descriptions of their personalities describe [[PsychopathicManchild developmentally-stunted and empathy-impaired human beings, not unknowable aliens]]) or to clumsily justify their mindset (they allegedly don't understand death, but the same book describes their wrath at the family that figured out how to kill them permanently, so they clearly understand it ''enough'') collapse under basic logic. Also, hurtfully, the book includes a few "bait" options for a player who might dislike them enough to specialize in killing them, but then tells the GM to never let the players best them in a contest of arms, so no only are they [[KarmaHoudini beyond justice]], a player could easily have wasted an entire character concept on them!


* BrokenBase: Several ideas of the metaplot were contentious and divisive, most notably [[spoiler: the alien Syrneth creating humanity, probably as a slave race, and and the Thalusi/Strangers being behind the Bargain and having a very active role in Thean history, and the man most of Theah knows as the Third Prophet actually being an impostor who orchestrated the murder of the actual Third Prophet, with only the Knights of the Rose and Cross knowing the truth.]] At least [[spoiler: the eventual reveal that Theus is actually an ancient, if benevolent, alien demiurge himself]] is safely and emphatically optional.

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* BrokenBase: Several ideas of the first edition metaplot were contentious and divisive, most notably [[spoiler: the alien Syrneth creating humanity, probably as a slave race, and and the Thalusi/Strangers being behind the Bargain and having a very active role in Thean history, and the man most of Theah knows as the Third Prophet actually being an impostor who orchestrated the murder of the actual Third Prophet, with only the Knights of the Rose and Cross knowing the truth.]] At least [[spoiler: the eventual reveal that Theus is actually an ancient, if benevolent, ancient alien demiurge himself]] himself, if a thoroughly-benevolent one actually behind much of what was attributed to him in history]] is safely and emphatically optional.



* ItsHardSoItSucks: ... A common complaint about First Edition. For what was meant to be a game about heroic swashbucklers doing heroic things, a lot of players felt the game was really stingy with the character points, really encouraged a KillerGameMaster mindset in the GM, gave the setting's Villains ''huge'' amounts of political and military power at their disposal compared to Heroic equivalents, and had an odd fixation on the out-of-place cosmic horror aspect. The default roll difficulties meant that a character who wanted any chance of accomplishing basic tasks had to really specialize in them, meaning being crippled in all other areas, and being a Sorcerer or Swordsman (which many considered the main appeal of the game) cost so many points it practically forced you to buy a Hubris - which the books flat out instructed the GM to treat as a carte blanche to screw with the player. It didn't help that the only {{Non Player Character}}s given stats tended to be major players in the metaplot, with levels of competence players couldn't even imagine getting - creating the impression that, at best, all they could hope for was to play second fiddle for [=GMPCs=] or be slaughtered by villains the books seemed more enamored with than themselves. Whether the fanbase was just unappeasable, the developers went too far trying to fix the problem, or everything was fine and the complainers were a minority is still up to debate.

to:

* ItsHardSoItSucks: ... ItsHardSoItSucks: A common complaint about First Edition. For what was meant to be a game about heroic swashbucklers doing heroic things, a lot of players felt the game was really stingy with the character points, really encouraged a KillerGameMaster mindset in the GM, gave the setting's Villains ''huge'' amounts of political and military power at their disposal compared to Heroic equivalents, and had an odd fixation on the out-of-place cosmic horror aspect. The default roll difficulties meant that a character who wanted any chance of accomplishing basic tasks had to really specialize in them, meaning to the point of being crippled in all other areas, and being a Sorcerer or Swordsman (which many considered the main appeal of the game) cost so many points it practically forced you one to buy a Hubris - which the books flat out instructed the GM to treat as a carte blanche to screw with the player. It didn't help that the only {{Non Player Character}}s given stats tended to be major players in the metaplot, with levels of competence players couldn't even imagine getting - creating the impression that, at best, all they could hope for was to play second fiddle for [=GMPCs=] or be slaughtered by villains the books seemed more enamored with than themselves. Whether the fanbase was just unappeasable, the developers went too far trying to fix the problem, or everything was fine and the complainers were a minority is still up to debate.



* LighterAndSofter: The Second Edition's setting is this compared both to real history and the first edition. The game's developers made a conscious decision to make their fantasy version of the 17th century free of many of the prejudices and forms of oppression which dominated the world back in the day, both in order to include the largest amount of Hero concepts and because they didn't want their idealistic, swashbuckling vision marred by such ugliness. Places where men and women are not seen as equal, LGBT persons are not openly accepted, or members of racial or religious minorities are despised are ''the exception'', not the rule. While slavery and genocide do exist, they are always committed by capital V Villains and are usually stopped sooner rather than later by capital H Heroes. Compared to the First Edition, the 2E setting is also considerably lighter on seemingly omnipotent villains, unstoppable monsters and cosmic horror elements.

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* LighterAndSofter: The Second Edition's setting is this compared both to real history and the first edition. The game's developers made a conscious decision to make their fantasy version of the 17th century free of many of the prejudices and forms of oppression which dominated the world back in the day, both in order to include the largest amount of Hero concepts possible and because they didn't want their idealistic, swashbuckling vision marred by such ugliness. Places where men and women are not seen as equal, LGBT persons are not openly accepted, or members of racial or religious minorities are despised are ''the exception'', not the rule. While slavery and genocide do exist, they are always committed by capital V Villains and are usually stopped sooner rather than later by capital H Heroes. Compared to the First Edition, the 2E setting is also considerably lighter on seemingly omnipotent villains, unstoppable monsters and cosmic horror elements.

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