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[[WMG: At some point in time, the creators considered creating a badass Santa Claus character who perpetually fights off daemons in the Northern Chaos Wastes]]

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[[WMG: At some point in time, the creators considered creating a badass Santa Claus [[BadassSanta badass]] SantaClaus character who perpetually fights off daemons in the Northern Chaos Wastes]]Wastes]]

[[WMG: The Skaven act the way they do because of environmental factors rather than their inherent nature]]
[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun John B. Calhoun]] did a series of experiments to study the effects of overpopulation on rats. The rats behaved normally at first, but they became increasingly violent and dysfunctional (i.e. Skaven-like) as their environment grew more and more overcrowded. This behavior persists even if the rats are moved to less cramped conditions. Since Skaven are basically giant rats, it's not difficult to imagine that their horrifically overpopulated living conditions ended up giving them horrible mental problems. If this is true, then theoretically, saner and more functional (if not necessarily less evil) Skaven societies could emerge if they had more room and better living conditions.


Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.

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Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.Ursun.

[[WMG: At some point in time, the creators considered creating a badass Santa Claus character who perpetually fights off daemons in the Northern Chaos Wastes]]


** Probably not, since Literature/{{Discworld}} dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto NoMoreHeroes", right?

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** Probably not, since Literature/{{Discworld}} dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto NoMoreHeroes", VideoGame/NoMoreHeroes", right?


Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursus, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.

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Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursus, Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.


After all, there is a great deal of overlap between these three, and all seem to be a take on the ''Fifth Chaos God'' idea.

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After all, there is a great deal of overlap between these three, and all seem to be a take on the ''Fifth Chaos God'' idea.idea.

[[WMG: Ursun is, or [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes rather, was]] the same god as Ulric.]]
Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursus, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.


Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of version of Ulric - Olric, and this view spread to other Northmen - Kurgan and Hung.\\

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Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of Norscans) version of Ulric - Olric, Olric/Ursash, and this view spread to other Northmen - Kurgan and Hung.\\

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***** Another interesting thing is that Khaine was stated to have absorbed the Nightbringer's "aspect of the Reaper", resulting in darkening of his nature, and gaining a [[TheGrimReaper grim reaper]] aspect. Khorne had in old canon an increadibly powerfull unique Greater Daemon - [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:MardaggArtwork.jpg Mardagg]], who also spots a grim reaper form, and is even called the "Death Elemental". So it's another very curious connection between Khorne and Khaine...


During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in [[{{Warhammer40000}} Warhammer 40,000]]. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite [[VillainsNeverLie his claims of never lying, not seen as very truthfull by fans]], especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\\

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During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in [[{{Warhammer40000}} Warhammer 40,000]].''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}''. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite [[VillainsNeverLie his claims of never lying, not seen as very truthfull by fans]], especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\\


The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

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The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' ''Magazine/WhiteDwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\


** White Dwarf once released an article detailing conversions for an Army of Law using the Chaos models and army list. They're at least semi-canon.

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** White Dwarf ''Magazine/WhiteDwarf'' once released an article detailing conversions for an Army of Law using the Chaos models and army list. They're at least semi-canon.


''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in Warhamer Fantasy, but also connects to Warhammer 40,000, with information on Eldar(calle the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\\

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''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in Warhamer Fantasy, but also connects to Warhammer 40,000, with information on Eldar(calle Eldar(called the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\\


* Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, as seen in fact [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg Witch Elves early on actually wore Khorne's holy symbol on them]], but latter materials somewhat contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]].\\

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* **** Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, as seen in fact [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg Witch Elves early on actually wore Khorne's holy symbol on them]], but latter materials somewhat contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]].\\



** to specify, [[http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&p=52730&hilit=khaine+khorne#p52730 here is a longer explanation]] on how [=LordLucan=], the author of FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk and FanFic/TheShapeOfTheNightmareToCome, sees the relationship between Khorne and Khaine, at least in context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe:
*** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in 40K itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, xenology, liber chaotica, and embellished with my own ideas.]\\

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** ***** to specify, [[http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&p=52730&hilit=khaine+khorne#p52730 here is a longer explanation]] on how [=LordLucan=], the author of FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk and FanFic/TheShapeOfTheNightmareToCome, sees the relationship between Khorne and Khaine, at least in context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe:
*** ****** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in 40K itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, xenology, liber chaotica, and embellished with my own ideas.]\\


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******* To be clear, [=LordLucan=]'s writtings have strong evidence in canon, specifically ''Liber Chaotica''.\\
''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in Warhamer Fantasy, but also connects to Warhammer 40,000, with information on Eldar(calle the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\\
''Such was the event that was Slaanesh's birth, the metal body that had contained Khorne's essence since he had slain Kaelis Ra shattered into a thousand pieces that scattered across the dimensions, but though his soul had been freed from it's silver prison, Khorne had not the strength to make a counter blow....''\\


To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from Warhammer Fantasy Battle the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]].\\

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To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.[[http://warhammer40k.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.com/wiki/File:Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.[[http://warhammer40k.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.com/wiki/File:Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.Bloodletter]] [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.com/wiki/File:Daemons_of_Chaos_Codex.jpg Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from Warhammer Fantasy Battle the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]].\\


To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]]. The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

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To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from Warhammer Fantasy Battle the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]]. \\
The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\


To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]]. The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

to:

To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]].Berserker]], or [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]]. The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

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