History WMG / Warhammer

* The only reason they haven´t won yet is because they´d like the Eternal War to stay eternal.

After the Literature/HorusHeresy and the Emperor's internment on the Throne, his reality-warping powers came into play and he created a world of symbolism with which he could consider his problems in physical form. Some of the ties are obvious- Orcs are Orks, the High/Dark Elves Eldar, Bretonians are Space Marines, but others are more representative of the universe and the distant past- Ogres represent entropy, Skaven represent the growing power of the Warp, and Lizardmen are the Old Ones. In this reality, the Emperor took the form of Karl Franz, and rules over this imaginary world while he ponders the nature of the Imperium.

* It is also possible that The Horned Rat is a manifestation of Nurgle in the same way that Khaine is quite probably Khorne. Are the other two Chaos Gods running double lives in the world somewhere?

*** The Horned Rat is ''neither'' Nurgle nor Tzeench, but is sortof halfway in between. This makes it about the opposite to the murder-obsessed-yet-with-oddly-sexy-minions Khaine (ie, Khorne/Slaanesh).
** What if the Horned Rat is ''both'' Tzeentch and Nurgle? Confused? Let me explain: the "mainstream" religion of the Horned Rat pretty much depicts him as a Tzeentch-style patron of scheming, backstabbing, treachery and general [[MagnificentBastard Magnificent Bastardry]]. The Skaven of Clan Pestilens, however, worship him as a patron of pestilence and plagues... something that only happened when they emigrated to Lustria centuries ago and promptly began to die of the hideous diseases and parasites endemic to that continent. In their fevered dreams, however, they came to worship a "new aspect" of the Horned Rat and by doing so were spared from their torturous deaths. Sound at all like the "conversion" of the Death Guard into Plague Marines? When they finally got kicked out of Lustria, the "orthodox" Skaven decried Clan Pestilens as heretics, and if they hadn't been so powerful (and had their bio-weapons to back them up), the clan would have been obliterated. Even now, they're still more or less outcast from mainstream Skaven society due to their "cult" status.

*** To add some credence to this theory- back in the old ''Realms of Chaos'' [[{{Splat}} sourcebooks]] (can't remember if it was ''Slaves to Darkness'' or ''Lost and the Damned'') there were rules for creating your own lesser Chaos god/Greater Daemon. The worked example ended up remarkably similar to the descriptions of the Horned Rat in both aspects (what he was "god" of), and in what his avatars looked like when manifest (almost identical to Vermin Lords). Hell, I'm pretty sure even his name (Neiglitz, IIRC) has been used in some material to refer to the Horned Rat. Considering the venerable ''Realms of Chaos'' books pre-date the establishment of the skaven race and culture, it's possible that the Horned Rat was established directly from that worked example.

Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.

* So to conclude, the Green Knight is actually TheChosenMany [[TheFaceless Faceless]] [[TheFairFolk Fair Folk]] GeniusLoci KnightErrant {{Tyke Bomb}}s with LegacyImmortality. [[TropeOverdosed Enough tropes for ya?]]

[[AC:TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}]]

** ''Fantasy Battle'' predates ''40K''.

[[WMG:Warhammer is set on a world within the Eye of Terror.]]

*** To be clear, [=LordLucan=]'s writtings have strong evidence in canon, specifically ''Liber Chaotica''.\\

*** Another interesting thing is that Khaine was stated to have absorbed the Nightbringer's "aspect of the Reaper", resulting in darkening of his nature, and gaining a [[TheGrimReaper grim reaper]] aspect. Khorne had in old canon an increadibly powerfull unique Greater Daemon -- [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:MardaggArtwork.jpg Mardagg]], who also spots a grim reaper form, and is even called the "Death Elemental". So it's another very curious connection between Khorne and Khaine...

** Probably not, since Literature/{{Discworld}} dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto VideoGame/NoMoreHeroes", right?

** So ''that's'' why Harry the Hammer keeps killing the undead instead of joining the Chaos Hordes when they march.

** Or the reason so many elements of ''40K'' exists is because ''40K'' started out as "''Warhammer'' In Space".
** This guess was already made further up on the page. Read before you post.

[[WMG: Athel Loren is a god, and the physical forest is a bridge between it's realm and the physical world]]

[[WMG: Be'lakor is the same as Azagoth from early Warhamer Lore]]

[[WMG: Alternately, Be'lakor, Malal and Azagoth, are all different names for the same entity]]

It's very rare for a skink, red-crested or not, to have a distinct cranial horn (and even rarer to have two of them), let alone "look exactly like Tehenhauin." So the only logical explanation to this mystery is {{Reincarnation}}: Much like a snake shedding their old skin, the spirit of the previous, departed Tehenhauin will transfer to another, younger red-crested skink that is chosen to be the next Great Prophet of Sotek, causing them to "inherit" the same, unique twin-tail and large cranial horn through a significant transformation of their body.

Think about it. They're gods of chaos, and what place is more chaotic than the Warhammer world? There's enough battle to sate Khorne, scheming for Tzeentch, hubris for Slaanesh and Despair for Nurgle as it is, and it's basically a giant hell already. All the fighting is just the four chaos gods revelling in their own chaos-ness and playing off the mortals against each other for kicks. They don't need any of the incursions or thier Everchosen to succeed, which is why they never do: they won the moment the gates collapsed.

** Wanting the 'eternal war to stay eternal for kicks' is what the Chaos Gods want in 40K. Here, they don't bother that much in the Old World primarily due to the whole Great Game thing and because they already have daemon hordes conquering ''other'' worlds.
** 40K doesn't have the Great Game too?

[[WMG:The entire Warhammer world was subconsciously created by the Emperor.]]

** Fantasy Battle predates 40K.

* This isn't fanon - the background is pretty clear that he's a Chaos God unique to the Skaven.

*** There are chaos gods outside the Big Four in Fantasy you know. He's just another one of them.
** Alternatively, the Horned Rat isn't a Chaos God but a particularly powerful Greater Daemon. This would explain why he has an unspecific powerbase and a unique personality, and although Gods are far too powerful to manifest on the Material Plane the Vermin Lord can do it because it's not quite on the same world-shattering Tier. Therefore the Council of Thirteen is so named for literal reasons rather than symbolic - the Horned Rat actually sits on the council occasionally, when the Vermin Lord is manifest for long enough.

*** Of course, the same source also treated the [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} God-Emperor of Mankind]] explicitly as the Fifth of the Big Four Chaos Gods. The fluff has moved on vastly since then.

It was said that Sigmar came into the world through a twin-tailed comet. Several of the Space Marine Primarchs of TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} also fell to their respective worlds from the sky when they were separated, and like Sigmar came to legendary stature.

* Literally correct. Sigmar ''was'' once one of the un-accounted-for primarchs. This has since been [[RetCon ret-conned]] out of existence (several editions ago now. Warhammer and Warhammer 40000 no longer share a fictonal universe).

*** I call Mutiverse on that! They may not be in the same universe, but they could be in the same multiverse linked by the Warp. In the 40K comic Bloodquest the Blood Angels fight beastmen in on a demon world.
*** Just like orcs, goblins, men, elves, daemons, dwarfs, ogres, halflings, zoats, slann and old ones; beastmen appear in both Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 (and most of them are in Blood Bowl too, which is seperate again from the other two) but do not necessarily coexist.

*** [[LukeIAmYourFather No, Sigmar...I am your father!]]

It would explain all the chaos and mutation rife in the world, and in earlier incarnations of the game, you could use 40K weapons and items - possibly left by Chaos Marines.

* I swear there is something that blatantly states Warhammer takes place on a Feudal World but I cannot remember where it is.
* The Liber Chaotica (set in the warhammer world) describes and shows a demon weapon which is very obviosly a chainsword and theres lots other 40k stuff referenced.
** Those sections were written before the split between Fantasy and 40K were finalized.

[[WMG: The Warhammer world is a parallel universe to both Earth and the Discworld]]
The Earth connection is pretty much confirmed by the presence of Genevieve Dieudonne on two Earths (the "Anno Dracula" universe and the "Diogenes Club" universe) [not to mention the shape of the continents]. For the Disc connection see the GURPS/WFRP adventure ''Meals on Wheels'', which portrays the same events happening in both worlds. The adventure equates Altdorf to Ankh-Morpork, with Filthy Harald Kleindeinst paralleling Commander Vimes and Leonardo da Miragliano paralleling Leonard of Quirm. (Yes, they're both based on Earth figures originally, but surely that only proves the Warhammer world follows the Main/TheoryOfNarrativeCausality?)

** Hell, The Night Watch's motto is "Fabricati Diem, Pvnc".

*** IIRC, she still is to some extent; I think it's mentionned or implied in the RPG sourcebook on vampires that she's of the Lahmia bloodline, and that as a FriendlyNeighborhoodVampire (probably the only one in the entire setting), the other vamps use her as an UnwittingPawn to garner [[VillainWithGoodPublicity good publicity]]. It's all very cynical, appropriately enough for Warhammer.
* Additional complication; as per ''[[TabletopGame/DiscworldRolePlayingGame GURPS Discworld]]'' and ''{{TabletopGame/GURPS}} TabletopGame/InfiniteWorlds'', the Disc is part of an entirely different game company's multiverse...

* You missed one: the powers of Law. Some editions of WFRP mention gods of law (although this troper is going on something seen in a bookshop five years ago, since he didn't have the money to buy the main rulebook; help from any WFRP players would be appreciated). One of the ''Konrad'' novels features a prophet who used to be a freakin' ''Daemon'' but somehow managed to stop. The Powers of Law could have been [[TheManBehindTheMan The Beings Behind The Old Ones]].

*** They do exist, but are not as well known as Chaos. They and their followers are regarded with distrust by the Empire, but this being Warhammer, one, they deserve that reputation, and two, not making worship of them punishable by death is very benevolent by their standards. They are [[HolyHandGrenade Allum]][[LightIsNotGood inas]], a EldritchAbomination that rules over light, [[SealedGoodInACan Arianka]], a goddess locked in a crystal tomb by the Gods of Chaos, and [[PayEvilUntoEvil Solkan the Avenger]], [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin who does exactly what his name suggests]]. The Daemon Prophet can possibly be a follower of them (though I didn't read that book), since the Gods of Law can be described as daemons of the patterns within randomness. All gotten from [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gods_of_Law here]]. Sadly, the only one that is remembered is Solkan, who is occasionally mentioned in the novels.

Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of Norscans) version of Ulric - Olric/Ursash, and this view spread to other Northmen - Kurgan and Hung.\\
In the universe of Warhammer 40,000 on the other hand, Khorne probably absorbed, and was inflenced by [[Myth/NorseMythology Odin]], on who Games Workshop modeled both Khorne and Ulric.

*** Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, as seen in fact [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg Witch Elves early on actually wore Khorne's holy symbol on them]], but latter materials somewhat contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]].\\
To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter]] [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daemons_of_Chaos_Codex.jpg Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from Warhammer Fantasy Battle the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]].\\

''When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.''\\

*** to specify, [[http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&p=52730&hilit=khaine+khorne#p52730 here is a longer explanation]] on how [=LordLucan=], the author of FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk and FanFic/TheShapeOfTheNightmareToCome, sees the relationship between Khorne and Khaine, at least in context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe:
*** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in 40K itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, xenology, liber chaotica, and embellished with my own ideas.]\\

Of course, even going by this theory in Warhammer Fantasy, this realtionship would be a bit different, due to some differences in background, like the (aparent?) the lack of C'tan.

''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in Warhamer Fantasy, but also connects to Warhammer 40,000, with information on Eldar(called the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\\

*** Another interesting thing is that Khaine was stated to have absorbed the Nightbringer's "aspect of the Reaper", resulting in darkening of his nature, and gaining a [[TheGrimReaper grim reaper]] aspect. Khorne had in old canon an increadibly powerfull unique Greater Daemon - [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:MardaggArtwork.jpg Mardagg]], who also spots a grim reaper form, and is even called the "Death Elemental". So it's another very curious connection between Khorne and Khaine...

Wood Elf magic is responsible for the Blessing of the Lady; Wood Elves steal children, and train the girls to become Damsels (the most powerful one is even called the [[TheFairFolk Fey]] Enchantress) but no-one knows what happens to the males. Furthermore, no-one knows where the Green Knight comes from, he just shows up [[GeniusLoci to defend places sacred to the Lady]] - so maybe "he" is really a [[TheChosenMany Green Knight Corps]] of Wood Elf {{Tyke Bomb}}s. They're dressed as Bretonnian knights because the Elves want the xenophobic Brets to revere them as a mythical chivalric figure - the tendency of knights to identify each other by heraldry and the Green Knight's [[TheFaceless refusal to remove his helmet]] combine to create the legend of an omnipresent unkillable being.\\

[[WMG: There is a grand total of one 40K immigrant in WFB, and that is Grombrindal]]

A lowly Bretonnian Knight Errant - a completely normal human man with a little military training - can get potent magical protection simply by praying, yet even the oldest and most skilled Wood Elves can't give themselves such protection without magical items. Whoever is protecting the Bretonnians seems to be vastly more powerful than the Asrai themselves.

** Well... let's look through the facts as given in Knights of the Grail and the rest of WHFRP: 1) The fey of Athel Loren are very definitely Wood Elves, as is the Fey Enchantress. 2) The Damsels of the Lady are wizards trained by Wood Elves. 3.) There is quite a lot more magic in Warhammer than those six times eight spells given in the rule book (yes, even more than those additional lores from the army books), so the Blessing of the Lady as a spell isn't quite improbable, just as there might be a Chaos Barbarian using a bow somewhere in the world. With these considerations, I think it's more probable than not that the Wood Elves are behind the Lady than not.

*** Taking a ''fifth'' option: The Lady of The Lake was originally a Wood Elf ploy, but has since escaped their control. Because of the influence of Chaos and all, it's implied that the gods of the Warhammer setting run on ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve, so maybe Gilles and his friends were originally enchanted with Woof Elf magic, but as the Brettonians as a people began to believe in this new mysterious goddess of chivalry their faith created an echo in the Realm of Chaos, and now she really does exist and have their best interests at heart.

Chaos has as much to fear from the undead overrunning the world as anyone, maybe more. There would be no more war, lust, disease or hope - only a fixed, unchanging immortality where nothing will ever grow or change.

[[WMG:The Warhammer world is a world in the [[TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}} 40k galaxy]] within the eye of terror]]
There were too many connections between the two universes to say that they were completely separate. However, the world was not exactly an average world either. This is because the Warhammer world was located smack-dab in the middle of the Eye of Terror, the influence of the warp allowed the more fantasy elements in the world to exist. The power of Chaos held supreme in the world (Chaos wastelands, the Skaven) with opposing factions struggling to keep them at bay. This also explains why many of the 40k races and elements managed to exist in one world.
** or the reason so many elements of 40K exists is because 40K started out as "Warhammer In Space"

Azagoth is a practically forgotten Chaos God (or Daemon Prince) who came into the material world, and was credited as the '''prime reason''' why the interdimensional gateways of the Old Ones at poles collapsed. Azagoth also conquered the most of southern hemisphere, and was barelly stopped. He also done this all before the Golden Age of Elves, and before the Elves rose against Chaos in the old (retconned?) Warhammer timeline. This all fits the description of Be'lakor, who was said to rule the world in the time before Elves rose against Chaos, and being worshipped as a Chaos God. This could mean that Be'lakor's punishment, is because of his defeat and banishment by combined efforts of the Dwarven and Elven races, backed up by the magical might of Drachenfels and Taranakh/Gharra'ell'rhal'iann Godfellow. Of course, one could say that Be'lakor/Azagoth's defeat was still caused by his pride, so Be'lakor was still punished for his pride FromACertainPointOfView.

During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}''. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite [[VillainsNeverLie his claims of never lying, not seen as very truthfull by fans]], especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\\
Another point for this theory, is that in Warhammer 40,000, Be'lakor also searches for a chosen and proposed Ahzek Ahriman to become his chosen. To finally cover Necoho and Zuvassin, they could be earlier fonts for a cult of Malal/Be'lakor, in order to gather strength, after he powered down by the other Chaos Gods. Especially that again, like Be'lakor, Necoho and Zuvassin were created by Games Workshop as substitutes for Malal.

[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun John B. Calhoun]] did a series of experiments to study the effects of overpopulation on rats. The rats behaved normally at first, but they became increasingly violent and dysfunctional (i.e. Skaven-like) as their environment grew more and more overcrowded. This behavior persists even if the rats are moved to less cramped conditions. Since Skaven are basically giant rats, it's not difficult to imagine that their horrifically overpopulated living conditions ended up giving them horrible mental problems. If this is true, then theoretically, saner and more functional (if not necessarily less evil) Skaven societies could emerge if they had more room and better living conditions.

[[WMG: At some point in time, the creators considered creating a badass Santa Claus character who perpetually fights off daemons in the Northern Chaos Wastes]]

Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursun, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.

** Probably not, since Literature/{{Discworld}} dwarfs don't actually eat dwarf bread. It might make a formidable weapon, though. And surely you mean "Branston Pickle spread onto NoMoreHeroes", right?

Aside from the fact the similarities between the two gods were noted in in-universe, Norscans, (and presumably their ancestors Norsii), had a worshiped a version of Ulric, called Ursash. Not only the name Ursash is incredibly similar to Ursus, but Ulric in the form of Ursash, was connected with bears, just like Ursun. As Gospodars(the peoples who brought the Ursun worship to Kislev), originally lived more north-east, and may have been originally an Kurgan tribe, they could have contact with Norscans, or even Norsii, and adopt Ursash/Ulric as their deity. Overtime, the name Ursash would be corrupted/transformed into Ursun.

After all, there is a great deal of overlap between these three, and all seem to be a take on the ''Fifth Chaos God'' idea.

Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of version of Ulric - Olric, and this view spread to other Northmen - Kurgan and Hung.\\

During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in [[{{Warhammer40000}} Warhammer 40,000]]. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite [[VillainsNeverLie his claims of never lying, not seen as very truthfull by fans]], especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\\

The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

** White Dwarf once released an article detailing conversions for an Army of Law using the Chaos models and army list. They're at least semi-canon.

''Liber Chaotica'' is a in-universe writtings of Richter Kless, in Warhamer Fantasy, but also connects to Warhammer 40,000, with information on Eldar(calle the Elder there, and described as creatures similar to Asur/High Elves). ''Liber Chaotica'' also basically outright states that Khorne and Khaine are one and the same, and actually names Khorne as fighting the Nightbringer/Aza'gorod/Kaelis Ra, and the one shattered by Slaanesh' birth. Citting the specific fragment:\\

* Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, as seen in fact [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg Witch Elves early on actually wore Khorne's holy symbol on them]], but latter materials somewhat contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]].\\

** to specify, [[http://www.thebolthole.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=231&p=52730&hilit=khaine+khorne#p52730 here is a longer explanation]] on how [=LordLucan=], the author of FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk and FanFic/TheShapeOfTheNightmareToCome, sees the relationship between Khorne and Khaine, at least in context of the Warhammer 40,000 universe:
*** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in 40K itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, xenology, liber chaotica, and embellished with my own ideas.]\\

To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or from Warhammer Fantasy Battle the armors of a [[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6t28UPFD9oE/Tuf3FABvpGI/AAAAAAAAAr4/W0z_H1Sd7GY/s1600/Knight-of-Khorne_tvdh.jpg Knight of Khorne]] and [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]].\\

To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]], or [[http://pl.warhammer.wikia.com/wiki/Plik:Warrior-of-Khorne.jpg Warrior of Khorne]]. The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]]. The similarities are pretty big. And as mentioned above [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Dark_Elves_4_Cover.jpg the symbol of Khaine worn by Witch Elves was not just similar]], but just was the [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Khorne_Mark.png Symbol of Khorne]]. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]]. The similarities are pretty big. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127:\\

* Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, but latter materials contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]].\\

After all, there is a great deal of overlap between these three, and all seem to be a take on the''Fifth Chaos God'' idea.

The eldar then declared themselves the heirs of the old one empire, and conquered the other young races. Khaine was at the forefront of these wars too, but the warp was making him more and more unstable; he was becomign sometihng of a mad berserker. This was because the infant god Khorne was rising fromt he deep warp, drawn by the bloodshed and carnage of the wars in heaven. The Khaine in the warp was becoming Khorne, while the living-metal clad Khaine was being driven mad by its influence. he eventually turned on the eldar, and murdered the Eldar Emperor Eldanesh. This new war created a war between eldar, as the xenarch (the eldar allied to Khaine) fought the Asur (Asuryan's adherents, the Imperial Eldar). But eventually, Khaine was brought under control*, and the emprie was reunited. The rest of the gods no longer manifested in reality (the eldar myths said Asuryan decreed it, but it is more likely the new Eldar Emperor made it illegal to summon the gods, who were essentially WMDs. Either that, or all the old 'god-caller' eldar, like Ulthanesh and Eldanesh were gone, so the eldar simply lost the ability to summon them).\\

During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in [[{{Warhammer40000}} Warhammer 40,000]]. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite his claims of not lying, seen as very truthfull by fans, especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them. Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.\\

**** Well, it was suggested especially in the 90's/early 00's that '''ALL''' gods are part of the Big 4 up to level. As Gavin Thorpe (one of most prominent Games Workshop desingers) wrote: ''"Think of a big circle- this is Chaos Undivided- ALL of chaos. Within this circle are 4 smaller circles that overlap one another and fill the internal space- these are the 4 major chaos gods.''" "''Each of the minor gods is a mix of the big 4, these appear as yet again smaller circles along the overlaps between the big 4. Thus you may have a god with aspects of several of the 4 encompassing emotions/thoughts that are the big 4.''". Although as detailed bellow, Khorne and Khaine share an especially close connection. Nonetheless, Ulric probably did shape how the Northmen Barbarian's view Khorne. Specifically, through Norscan, or rather Norsii(ancestors of version of Ulric - Olric, and this view spread to other Northmen - Kurgan and Hung. In the universe of Warhammer 40,000 on the other hand, Khorne probably absorbed, and was inflenced by [[Myth/NorseMythology Odin]], on who Games Workshop modeled both Khorne and Ulric.

* Well, the situation with Khorne and Khaine is a bit complicated. There are many clues, that at least early on, Khaine was the name, and form under which the elves worshiped Khorne, but latter materials contradict that. But even after Khorne and Khaine became somewhat separate entities, a connection remained. Most of the connection is now ironically through TabletopGame/{{Warhammer40000}}, even through Warhammer 40,000 was the setting that started to separate Khorne and Khaine. And while the universes of Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 are now separate, they do seem to share a multiverse with one Warp/Aethyr, as seen in the contact Skaven made with Eldar during [[TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes The End Times]]. To see connection still persisting between Khorne and Khaine, compare an [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/ba/Avatar_of_Khaine.jpg Avatar of Khaine]], and [[http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:KhaineArt2.jpg Warhammer Fantasy depiction of Khaine]] with a [[http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a0/Bloodletter.burmak.jpg Bloodletter Daemon of Khorne]], or [[http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Khorne_Berserker.png the armor of a Khornate Berserker]]. The similarities are pretty big. It's also notable, that the name under the people of Colchis knew Khorne, was ''Khaane'', a name almost identical to ''Khaine'', even basically the same name with a different spelling. Another notable thing is from the old ''White Dwarf'' magazine issue 127: ''When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.'' This bit outright states Kaine is part of Khorne, although also a part of Slaanesh. But Kaine being part of Slaanesh, might be explained by the fact the Slaanesh, at least at that moment, was the Warp representation of the Eldar species, which probably allowed him/her/it absorb most of Eldar Gods with ease. Kaine, even if he is the part of Khorne generated by emotions and worship of Eldar and Elves, in this scenario, would be also part of Slaanesh, due to Slaanesh being a corrupt representation of the whole Eldar and Elven kind. One could also say that Elves and Eldar, being some of the oldest thinking and feeling species(and with Eldar, longest lasting ones, as the Eldar civilisation existed for MILLIONS of years), shaped strongly Khorne with Khaine, their vision of War/The God of War. So the short answer could be that the situation is similar to that between Mr. Wednesday and [[spoiler: the European original Odin]] from American Gods. Wednesday was [[spoiler: Odin]], but [[spoiler: Odin]] '''wasn't''' Wednsday, as Wendsday did represented just a part, not the totality of him. Or like the it was rather nicelly describbed in FanFic/TheAgeOfDusk fanfic about the realtionship of Khaine to Khorne: ''He was a thing of Khorne. He was both the ancestor and the descendant of the King of Skulls''.

*** ''Ok, Khaela mensha Khaine is a complex warp entity in this setting (and indeed in 40K itself). But I think I should explain it from the start: [This info is taken from the eldar codex, the necron codex, xenology, liber chaotica, and embellished with my own ideas.] (EDIT: This simple post has grown into a whole huge flashback section. Blimey. Didn't expect to be writing a history of the eldar empire...) During the war in heaven, the old ones created the young races to help them fight the Necrons and the C'tan. However, to begn with, the young races were not sufficiently advanced enough technologically to help the Old Ones militarily. However, the old ones could make use of their creations' vast psychic potentials. They did this by manipulating the mythologies of their psychic children. The Old Ones had these races create vastly powerful warp entities from the very stuff of the warp itself, to use as weapons in the war in heaven (think of these warp entities as being many time smore powerful than a daemon prince, but completely unaligned to any chaos power, as chaos hadn't risen from the deep warp yet at that point in history). But over the millions of years of the war in heaven, these warp entities began to be worshipped by the growing alien civilisations, which not only empowered the warp entities but also gave them identities. They began to look just like the gods of the young races' mythologies. These warp entities could only be conjured into battle by certain powerful psyker heroes from the young races. Eldanesh was one of these super-psykers (likely having psychic powers comparable to the pre-golden throne emperor). Khaine was the second strongest warp entity, and was initially a valiant warrior god, who led the young races into battle against the Yngir and the mirror devils. But during a climatic battle with Aza'gorod the Nightbringer, he burst the necrodemris of the C'tan, and the necrodermis bonded with the warp entity. This anchored a portion of Khaine's power in realspace, but also started to twist the warp entity in unforeseen ways. At the climax of the war in heaven, the old one civilisation seems to collapse, as tides of enslavers and various other warp predators and proto-daemons* surged fromt he warp to knacker up everything. The eldar and the young races managed to protect themselves, and weather the nightmarish storm. They were the most technologically advanced of the surviving young races, and decided to enact a little payback on the necorns, who were weakened frm their own little civil war between C'tan and necron. But the necrons seemed to give up and retreat to their hidden tomb worlds. The eldar then declared themselves the heirs of the old one empire, and conquered the other young races. Khaine was at the forefront of these wars too, but the warp was making him more and more unstable; he was becomign sometihng of a mad berserker. This was because the infant god Khorne was rising fromt he deep warp, drawn by the bloodshed and carnage of the wars in heaven. The Khaine in the warp was becoming Khorne, while the living-metal clad Khaine was being driven mad by its influence. he eventually turned on the eldar, and murdered the Eldar Emperor Eldanesh. This new war created a war between eldar, as the xenarch (the eldar allied to Khaine) fought the Asur (Asuryan's adherents, the Imperial Eldar). But eventually, Khaine was brought under control*, and the emprie was reunited. The rest of the gods no longer manifested in reality (the eldar myths said Asuryan decreed it, but it is more likely the new Eldar Emperor made it illegal to summon the gods, who were essentially [=WMD=]s. Either that, or all the old 'god-caller' eldar, like Ulthanesh and Eldanesh were gone, so the eldar simply lost the ability to summon them). Khorne and Nurgle and tzeentch took they final forms in the medieva period, and Khaine only survived khorne's rise due to being anchored to reality by the living metal Khaine was kept under control y the eldar empire, and for a million years they prospered. Then the fall happened. The eldar gods and msot of the eldar race were devoured/absorbed by She who thirsts, with only three exceptions. Isha did not bond with slannesh, as nurgle managed to absorb her first. Cegorach, who seeme dto come from nowhere, fled to/bonded the webway with his harlequins. Khaine was fought over by slannesh and khorne, who both tried to absorb him. This caused Khaine to be shattered. His warp self became part of khorne, and his realspace self was shattered into many avatars, which the craftworlders took away to store.''
** Of course, even going by this theory in Warhammer Fantasy, this realtionship would be a bit different, due to some differences in background, like the (aparent?) the lack of C'tan.

It's not beyond impossible the 4 Chaos Gods teamed up against Malal/Be'lakor, and powered him down into a Daemon Prine forced to serve them. Not to mention, Be'lakor was seemingly introduced to fill Malal's role, the point when he was first introduced in the Shadowlord's identity, many players though the Shadowlord (Be'lakor) was actually Malal returned. During the TabletopGame/WarhammerTheEndTimes, Be'lakor actually attempted to (re?)become '''The Fifth Chaos God'''. The goal of becoming the Fifth Chaos, is also Be'lakor goal in [[{{Warhammer40000}} Warhammer 40,000]]. And while Be'lakor said during the ''End Times'' only the 4 Chaos Gods exist, he is despite his claims of not lying, seen as very truthfull by fans, especially seeing the presence of other deities during the End Times, and the status of the Horned Rat. Also during the ''End Times'', Be'lakor revealed to Archaon [[LukeIAmYourFather he is his father]] (Not clear if literally, or in a metaphorical sense), and seemingly manipulated the Everchosen. This would contradict Be'lakor's earlier attempts to stop the coronation of the Everchosen, but may make sense if he's Malal, and seeing the motivation of Archaon himself. Malal was often seen as a self-destructive god, especially that he personified Chaos turning against itself, so it could have make sense if he in part worked against even his own plans. To give an example, Malal's worshipers were called ''Doomed Ones'', as they were constantly in search for worshipers of the other Chaos gods in order to kill them . Another possibility, is that Be'lakor wanted Archaon to become the Everchosen, but acted seemingly against it, to out-gambit the 4 Chaos Gods. And about Archaon himself, as opposed to the Everchosen before him, Archaon LOATHS the Chaos Gods, and wants to only bring upon the destruction of the world, in order to starve the Chaos Gods to death. This very resembles the goals of Malal, and his chosen, Kaleb Daark. If Be'lakor is Malal, Archaon is his secret champion, and he would succed in (re)becoming the fifth Chaos God, it would all tie together. One fact that differentiated Malal from the other 4 Chaos Gods, was that he could manifest himself in the material realm by possessing his greatest champion. It's possible Malal/Be'lakor wanted to possess Archaon after reascending as a Chaos God, and steal the material world from the other 4 Chaos Gods as a revenge, and to spite them.

[[WMG: Be'lakor is a [[BroughtDownToBadass powered down]] Malal, and Necoho and Zuvassin, like the Shadowlord, were a guises taken up by Be'lakor/Malal]]

Azagoth is a practically forgotten Chaos God (or Daemon Prince) who came into the material world, and was credited as the '''prime reason''' why the interdimensional gateways of the Old Ones at poles collapsed. Azagoth also conquered the most of southern hemisphere, and was barelly stopped. He also done this all before the Golden Age of Elves, and before the Elves rose against Chaos in the old (retconned?) Warhammer timeline. This all fits the description of Be'lakor, who was said to rule the world in the time before Elves rose against Chaos, and being worshipped as a Chaos God. This could mean that Be'lakor's punishment, is because of his defeat and banishment by combined efforts of the Dwarven and Elven races, backed up by the magical might of Drachenfels and Taranakh/Gharra'ell'rhal'iann Godfellow. Of course, one could say that Be'lakor/Azagoth's defeat was still caused by his pride, so Be'lakor was still punished for his pride FromACertainPointOfView.