Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Main / WithThisHerring

Go To



** The Sherman kept its primary place all the way through the end of the war because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the more powerful 76 mm in a new turret and producing a heavier tank model (which ended up being the M26 Pershing) were subjected to this process. Ordinance chief Gladeon Barnes claimed during and after the war that Army Ground Forces head Leslie McNair hindered the development of these weapons because of his own ideas about doctrine, but McNair and AGF were actually supportive of prototypes and testing: what they objected to were Barnes' proposals to begin serial production and ship things overseas which had not yet been tested and found "battle worthy". Meanwhile, for those who believed the 75 mm Sherman to be adequate for the time being, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to provide the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. In fact, materials such as unhardened steel track could increase damage by normalizing the path of a shell impacting the front slope, so that it would turn into the armor instead of glancing off and encounter less effective thickness because of its more perpendicular path. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.

to:

** The Sherman kept its primary place all the way through the end of the war because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the more powerful 76 mm in a new turret and producing a heavier tank model (which ended up being the M26 Pershing) were subjected to this process. Ordinance chief Gladeon Barnes claimed during and after the war that Army Ground Forces head Leslie McNair [=McNair=] hindered the development of these weapons because of his own ideas about doctrine, but McNair [=McNair=] and AGF were actually supportive of prototypes and testing: what they objected to were Barnes' proposals to begin serial production and ship things overseas which had not yet been tested and found "battle worthy". Meanwhile, for those who believed the 75 mm Sherman to be adequate for the time being, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to provide the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They The Army had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
used. To make matters worse, somehow the decision got made to leave behind all 100 of the 76 mm Shermans that had been sent to Britain for the D-Day invasion, meaning that initially they had nothing but the 75. "This," to quote Nicholas Moran, "was something of an 'oops'."
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the Allied tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. In fact, materials such as unhardened steel track could increase damage by normalizing the path of a shell impacting the front slope, so that it would turn into the armor instead of glancing off and encounter less effective thickness because of its more perpendicular path. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.


* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass-produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one shot at a time (and no means of reloading quickly), a maximum lifespan of about 50 shots, and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was basically good for just one thing: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, kill him with one shot at point-blank range, and steal his weapon. It came in a waterproof box with ten rounds of ammunition, a wooden dowel to push spent casings out of the chamber, and a set of cartoon instructions. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of their bombers as delivering, well, bombs. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Philippines. In the grand scheme of things, most of the Liberators that were produced went unused and were destroyed after the war.
* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_gun Deer gun]] was a similarly crappy weapon chambered in 9mm, to be used in Vietnam just like the Liberator.

to:

* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass-produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one shot at a time (and no means of reloading quickly), a maximum lifespan of about 50 shots, and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was basically good for just one thing: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, kill him with one shot at point-blank range, and steal his weapon. It came in a waterproof box with ten rounds of ammunition, a wooden dowel to push spent casings out of the chamber, and a set of cartoon instructions. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of were not ultimately willing to carry fewer bombs in their bombers as delivering, well, bombs.planes so that they could drop boxes of liberators from the sky. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The Most of the 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and found no use, while the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Philippines. In the grand scheme of things, most The vast majority of the Liberators that were produced went unused and remained in storage after the war were destroyed after by the war.government.
* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_gun Deer gun]] was a similarly crappy weapon Cold War follow-up to the Liberator. During the 1950s the CIA was interested in covertly arming various resistance and insurgent groups abroad, and someone got the idea of reactivating the old Liberators. Then they found out that practically all of the Liberators had been destroyed, and they'd have to start over from scratch. In 1962 they gave Russel Moore of American Machine & Foundry a contract of $300,000 dollars for a test run of 1,000 pistols, which was expected to be followed by bulk orders at $3.95 apiece. Unlike the Liberator it was made of cast aluminum and chambered in 9mm, for 9mm; to be used in Vietnam just like use it one would unscrew the Liberator.very short threaded steel barrel, insert the cartridge, replace the barrel, pull back a plunger to manually cock the striker, and pull the trigger. For the sake of deniability there were no markings of any kind on it. For some reason the CIA never did order more than the initial 1,000, and while there's speculation that they'd planned to use it in Vietnam, the CIA has so far refused to answer all FOIA requests related to the Deer Gun.


** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and driveshaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult.
** The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the 76 mm and producing the heavier M26 Pershing were subjected to this long process. It's not that Army Ground Forces didn't want these improved tanks, because they totally did; the trouble was that their unwillingness to cut corners, though admirable, perhaps went a little bit too far. Meanwhile, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to have the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.

to:

** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back started development in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used modern replacement for obsolete tanks such as the M2 and the stopgap M3 Lee. It was based on the same conservative, well-tested running gear and radial aircraft engines as its predecessors, but incorporated an improved cast hull (welded in later models), 75 mm gun mounted in a fully rotating turret, and some neat gadgets including a gun stabilizer. Infantry support and exploitation were its main roles, but it was also made to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but war. However, as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 1944, the Sherman was growing, in growing (in David Fletcher's words, words) "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and driveshaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult.
** The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long all the way through the end of the war because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the more powerful 76 mm in a new turret and producing the a heavier tank model (which ended up being the M26 Pershing Pershing) were subjected to this long process. It's not Ordinance chief Gladeon Barnes claimed during and after the war that Army Ground Forces didn't want head Leslie McNair hindered the development of these improved tanks, weapons because of his own ideas about doctrine, but McNair and AGF were actually supportive of prototypes and testing: what they totally did; the trouble was that their unwillingness objected to cut corners, though admirable, perhaps went a little bit too far. were Barnes' proposals to begin serial production and ship things overseas which had not yet been tested and found "battle worthy". Meanwhile, for those who believed the 75 mm Sherman to be adequate for the time being, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to have provide the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.



** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was ineffective against new German tank models, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they initially didn't produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for boys fighting in Europe.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle--even at the times when they didn't get massive artillery and air support--largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman was BoringButPractical, part of a combined arms and logistical system which defeated the Germans' AwesomeButImpractical big cats.

to:

** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was ineffective against new German tank models, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, least excusable mistake made by AGF, which is that they initially didn't produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for boys fighting tanks in Europe.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle--even at the times when they didn't get massive artillery and air support--largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman Pershing came too late to make much of a difference, and could not realistically have been introduced earlier without even worse practical issues than it had, so the Army had no choice but to stick with the Sherman. It was BoringButPractical, part of a combined arms and logistical system which defeated while some tankers felt like they were taking on the Germans' Germans with a herring, they probably didn't realize just how much misery the crews of late German tanks were going through because their AwesomeButImpractical big cats.machines had been rushed out of development before they were ready.


* In 1944 and '45, United States tankers in Northern Europe began to feel let down by the M4 Sherman medium tank. Some would accuse the military of not providing them with good equipment, and Belton Cooper's book ''Death Traps'' would give the Sherman its NeverLiveItDown postwar reputation, which is significantly exaggerated and undeserved (only 3% of US tankers got killed, a percentage so small it's incredible). In fact, thanks to the crew ergonomics and hatch design it was probably the easiest tank in World War Two to bail out of quickly. There was a reason for the backlash, though, and how it came about requires some context.

to:

* In 1944 and '45, United States tankers in Northern Europe began to feel let down by the M4 Sherman medium tank. Some would accuse the military of not providing them with good equipment, and Belton Cooper's book ''Death Traps'' would give the Sherman its NeverLiveItDown postwar reputation, which is significantly exaggerated and undeserved (only 1,407 or 3% of US tankers got killed, a percentage number so small it's incredible). In fact, thanks to the crew ergonomics and hatch design it was probably the easiest tank in World War Two to bail out of quickly. There was a reason for the backlash, though, and how it came about requires some context.



** The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the 76 mm and producing the heavier M26 Pershing were subjected to this long process. It's not that Army Ground Forces didn't want these improved tanks, because they totally did; the trouble was that their unwillingness to cut corners, though admirable, perhaps went a bit too far. Meanwhile, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to have the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.

to:

** The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. The programs of upgunning the M4 with the 76 mm and producing the heavier M26 Pershing were subjected to this long process. It's not that Army Ground Forces didn't want these improved tanks, because they totally did; the trouble was that their unwillingness to cut corners, though admirable, perhaps went a little bit too far. Meanwhile, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to have the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.



** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was ineffective against new German tank models, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.

to:

** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was ineffective against new German tank models, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not initially didn't produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.boys fighting in Europe.


----

to:

--------
[[TheStinger ...I thee wed.]]


--> "Can you imagine? We were ordered to destroy this tank with 7.62 millimeter [=ShKAS=] machine guns! They should have known better! Well, we flew to the tank and fired at it. But what was the point of all this?"

to:

--> ---> "Can you imagine? We were ordered to destroy this tank with 7.62 millimeter [=ShKAS=] machine guns! They should have known better! Well, we flew to the tank and fired at it. But what was the point of all this?"


* In the first year of the Soviet-German War, regular Red Army combat units underwent a more than 300% turnover (4 million captured of whom almost all died or [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust were enslaved and then euthanised when they became Unfit-for-Work]], 2 million dead in combat and of wounds, and 4 million hospitalised for wounds of a pre-war strength of 3 million) in personnel. The turnover in Penal Battalion (a ''Shtrafbat'' was a unit of up to 1000 men) units, in which deserters and criminals were offered the opportunity to earn their freedom by serving in the thick of the fighting, was even higher. There are even rumours that in this first year, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat#Infantry_battalions several were used for 'combat reconnaissance' (drawing fire to expose the positions of enemy units) or actual combat when only semi-armed or possibly unarmed]]. It is unclear whether the pragmatic arguments for equipping these the ''Shtrafbaty'' well, as they saw the heaviest combat, won out over the inclination to avoid favouring cowards, criminals, and traitors when the material situation improved in the war's second year and began outstripping the Germans' in the third.

to:

* In the The first year of the Soviet-German War, War was a desperate time.
** In that first year,
regular Red Army combat units underwent a more than 300% turnover (4 million captured of whom almost all died or [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust were enslaved and then euthanised when they became Unfit-for-Work]], 2 million dead in combat and of wounds, and 4 million hospitalised for wounds of a pre-war strength of 3 million) in personnel. The turnover in Penal Battalion (a ''Shtrafbat'' was a unit of up to 1000 men) units, in which deserters and criminals were offered the opportunity to earn their freedom by serving in the thick of the fighting, was even higher. There are even rumours that in this first year, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat#Infantry_battalions several were used for 'combat reconnaissance' (drawing fire to expose the positions of enemy units) or actual combat when only semi-armed or possibly unarmed]]. It is unclear whether the pragmatic arguments for equipping these the ''Shtrafbaty'' well, as they saw the heaviest combat, won out over the inclination to avoid favouring cowards, criminals, and traitors when the material situation improved in the war's second year and began outstripping the Germans' in the third.



** When Operation Barbarossa swept in, the Soviet Air Force was caught unprepared in many ways, one of them being fighter armament. They had no cannons, only machine guns, so German bombers would just soak up everything they fired without being disabled. One time a KV heavy tank got stuck in a swamp, and to prevent it from being captured by the enemy, pilot Ivan Gaidaenko and his team were ordered to destroy it from the air:
--> "Can you imagine? We were ordered to destroy this tank with 7.62 millimeter [=ShKAS=] machine guns! They should have known better! Well, we flew to the tank and fired at it. But what was the point of all this?"



* When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Air Force was caught unprepared in many ways, one of them being fighter armament. They had no cannons, only machine guns, so German bombers would just soak up everything they fired without being disabled. One time a KV heavy tank got stuck in a swamp, and to prevent it from being captured by the enemy, pilot Ivan Gaidaenko and his team were ordered to destroy it from the air:
--> "Can you imagine? We were ordered to destroy this tank with 7.62 millimeter [=ShKAS=] machine guns! They should have known better! Well, we flew to the tank and fired at it. But what was the point of all this?"


* When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa, the Soviet Air Force was caught unprepared in many ways, one of them being fighter armament. They had no cannons, only machine guns, so German bombers would just soak up everything they fired without being disabled. One time a KV heavy tank got stuck in a swamp, and to prevent it from being captured by the enemy, pilot Ivan Gaidaenko and his team were ordered to destroy it from the air:
--> "Can you imagine? We were ordered to destroy this tank with 7.62 millimeter [=ShKAS=] machine guns! They should have known better! Well, we flew to the tank and fired at it. But what was the point of all this?"



** Italy started WorldWarI with insufficient numbers of ''everything'', and especially machine guns, due a combination of political interference and incompetence, the first competent commander-in-chief in a long time, Alberto Pollio, having to face serious interference due his political leanings (being favorable to the Triple Alliance in a political climate favoring ditching Germany and the ArchEnemy Austria-Hungary for the other side) ''and'' organize the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Turkish_War conquest of Libya]] before his highly suspicious death in 1914, Pollio's successor Cadorna having to start from scratch as he was his political opponent and couldn't take advantage of his predecessor's connections, and a beyond stupid political attitude about the acquisition of machine guns.[[note]]After buying an initial batch of Vickers, Italy resolved to use a national design and obtained the effective [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perino_Model_1908 Perino machine gun]]... Whose acquisition was stopped at 150 units due a combination of a heavy tripod (a problem that the inventor himself provided to solve with a new lighter tripod) and [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem the head of the commission that was to decide if continue production being the inventor of the competing but inferior FIAT 1914 machine gun]]. As the FIAT machine gun was crap, Pollio and his successor Cadorna resolved to buy more Vickers...that were never delivered, even if the ministry paid them in advance, due to the start of the war and Italy being nominally allied with Britain's enemies. Hence the adoption of the FIAT machine gun, much to Cadorna's consternation as he had no idea the weight issues of the Perino had been solved and the others were fabrications.[[/note]] The problems were mostly solved by 1917, in time to contribute to Italy's successful defense of the Grappa Massif after the Austro-Hungarian breakthrough at Caporetto, and completely solved with American help by the summer.

to:

** Italy started WorldWarI UsefulNotes/WorldWarI with insufficient numbers of ''everything'', and especially machine guns, due a combination of political interference and incompetence, the first competent commander-in-chief in a long time, Alberto Pollio, having to face serious interference due his political leanings (being favorable to the Triple Alliance in a political climate favoring ditching Germany and the ArchEnemy Austria-Hungary for the other side) ''and'' organize the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Turkish_War conquest of Libya]] before his highly suspicious death in 1914, Pollio's successor Cadorna having to start from scratch as he was his political opponent and couldn't take advantage of his predecessor's connections, and a beyond stupid political attitude about the acquisition of machine guns.[[note]]After buying an initial batch of Vickers, Italy resolved to use a national design and obtained the effective [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perino_Model_1908 Perino machine gun]]... Whose acquisition was stopped at 150 units due a combination of a heavy tripod (a problem that the inventor himself provided to solve with a new lighter tripod) and [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem the head of the commission that was to decide if continue production being the inventor of the competing but inferior FIAT 1914 machine gun]]. As the FIAT machine gun was crap, Pollio and his successor Cadorna resolved to buy more Vickers...that were never delivered, even if the ministry paid them in advance, due to the start of the war and Italy being nominally allied with Britain's enemies. Hence the adoption of the FIAT machine gun, much to Cadorna's consternation as he had no idea the weight issues of the Perino had been solved and the others were fabrications.[[/note]] The problems were mostly solved by 1917, in time to contribute to Italy's successful defense of the Grappa Massif after the Austro-Hungarian breakthrough at Caporetto, and completely solved with American help by the summer.


** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and driveshaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.
** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was now ineffective against German tanks, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle--even at the times when they didn't get massive artillery and air support--largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman may not have been a great fighter by late war standards, but it was a logistician's dream.

to:

** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and driveshaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult.
**
The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in The programs of upgunning the M4 with the 76 mm and introducing producing the heavier M26 Pershing. There Pershing were subjected to this long process. It's not that Army Ground Forces didn't want these improved tanks, because they totally did; the trouble was that their unwillingness to cut corners, though admirable, perhaps went a bit too far. Meanwhile, multiple factors fostered a false sense of security from the fact that security: the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, armor; the Tank Destroyer Branch was supposed to have the firepower to take on anything the tanks couldn't handle; and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons' guns' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. In fact, materials such as unhardened steel track could increase damage by normalizing the path of a shell impacting the front slope, so that it would turn into the armor instead of glancing off and encounter less effective thickness because of its more perpendicular path. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.
** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was now ineffective against new German tanks, tank models, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle--even at the times when they didn't get massive artillery and air support--largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman may not have been a great fighter by late war standards, but it was BoringButPractical, part of a logistician's dream.combined arms and logistical system which defeated the Germans' AwesomeButImpractical big cats.


* Luffy from ''Manga/OnePiece'' starts off his adventure on the high-seas with nothing but his clothes, a devil-fruit power ([[SuperDrowningSkills which prevents him from swimming]]) and a dinghy. And on top of his lack of material supplies, about the only thing he really knows how to do is fight so he can't even navigate.

to:

* Luffy from ''Manga/OnePiece'' starts off his adventure on the high-seas high seas with nothing but his clothes, a devil-fruit power ([[SuperDrowningSkills which prevents him from swimming]]) and a dinghy. And on top of his lack of material supplies, about the only thing he really knows how to do is fight so he can't even navigate.



* ''ComicBook/StanleyAndHisMonster'': Played with in the Creator/PhilFoglio mini-series. Ambrose Bierce tells Stanley to pack 'whatever he thinks he will need' for an expedition to Hell, while casting a spell that ensures that whatever he chooses will be exactly what he needs. Stanley packs a Halloween mask, a bottle of soda, a package of hot dogs, an umbrella, a bottle of barbeque sauce and a little red wagon. This turns out to be exactly what he needs to defeat the forces of Hell.

to:

* ''ComicBook/StanleyAndHisMonster'': Played with in the Creator/PhilFoglio mini-series. Ambrose Bierce tells Stanley to pack 'whatever he thinks he will need' for an expedition to Hell, Hell while casting a spell that ensures that whatever he chooses will be exactly what he needs. Stanley packs a Halloween mask, a bottle of soda, a package of hot dogs, an umbrella, a bottle of barbeque sauce and a little red wagon. This turns out to be exactly what he needs to defeat the forces of Hell.



* Experienced by the four at the beginning of ''Fanfic/TheKeysStandAlone: The Soft World''. They're brought back to C'hou and (eventually) told they're there to help save the world, but all they have to live on initially is Ringo's pouchful of money—which turns out to be worth a LOT less than it used to, meaning they have to start finding money just to stay alive pretty damn quick. Rather shabby treatment for champions brought over by the gods....

to:

* Experienced by the four at the beginning of ''Fanfic/TheKeysStandAlone: The Soft World''. They're brought back to C'hou and (eventually) told they're there to help save the world, but all they have to live on initially is Ringo's pouchful of money—which turns out to be worth a LOT less than it used to, meaning they have to start finding money just to stay alive pretty damn quick. Rather shabby treatment for champions brought over by the gods....gods...



* A few of the weapons randomly distributed at the beginning of ''Film/BattleRoyale'' (for which the point is to be the last one alive on the island) include a pot lid, binoculars, a paper fan, a megaphone and boxing gloves. Two end up useful, one ends up getting the owner killed, and the other two are used for one-off dark jokes.

to:

* A few of the weapons randomly distributed at the beginning of ''Film/BattleRoyale'' (for which the point is to be the last one alive on the island) include a pot lid, binoculars, a paper fan, a megaphone megaphone, and boxing gloves. Two end up useful, one ends up getting the owner killed, and the other two are used for one-off dark jokes.



* In ''Film/{{Momentum|2015}}'' hi-tech thief Alex is being pursued by assassins after a data drive in her possession. Hoping to tool up, she visits her contact Raymond at his loft safehouse. Unfortunately he has no weapons except one shotgun (which he keeps for himself), and he's HopelessWithTech so doesn't have a computer. The only assistance Raymond does offer is a landline telephone which Alex uses to contact her dead partner's wife. Then to make matters worse, the assassins raid the safehouse and use the phone's redial function to locate the wife, putting her in danger. So Alex finishes up [[NiceJobBreakingItHero completely empty handed with a hostage to save]].

to:

* In ''Film/{{Momentum|2015}}'' hi-tech thief Alex is being pursued by assassins after a data drive in her possession. Hoping to tool up, she visits her contact Raymond at his loft safehouse. Unfortunately Unfortunately, he has no weapons except one shotgun (which he keeps for himself), and he's HopelessWithTech so doesn't have a computer. The only assistance Raymond does offer is a landline telephone which Alex uses to contact her dead partner's wife. Then to make matters worse, the assassins raid the safehouse and use the phone's redial function to locate the wife, putting her in danger. So Alex finishes up [[NiceJobBreakingItHero completely empty handed empty-handed with a hostage to save]].



* Two of the characters facing down bloodthirsty aliens with future tech in ''Film/{{Predators}}'' are armed with a scalpel and a prison shiv. This is actually justified, however, as everyone grabbed by the Predators comes equipped with the weaponry they are most familiar with. Whether or not that weaponry is practical for combating Predators. So when everyone else draws their guns (including a custom assault rifle, a sniper rifle, dual nickel-plated pistols, and even a ''[[GatlingGood freaking minigun]]'', this one guy looks down at his shiv, and laments at length the fact that he has no gun.

to:

* Two of the characters facing down bloodthirsty aliens with future tech in ''Film/{{Predators}}'' are armed with a scalpel and a prison shiv. This is actually justified, however, as everyone grabbed by the Predators comes equipped with the weaponry they are most familiar with. Whether or not that weaponry is practical for combating Predators. So when everyone else draws their guns (including a custom assault rifle, a sniper rifle, dual nickel-plated pistols, and even a ''[[GatlingGood freaking minigun]]'', this one guy looks down at his shiv, shiv and laments at length the fact that he has no gun.



* Subverted in Creator/PhilipKDick's ''Paycheck''. The hero has just had his memory of the last two years of working on a top secret project erased, and when he picks up his paycheck he discovers that, for some reason during those two years he decided to ask to be paid not in money but several weird and almost worthless items like a small piece of wire and a bus token. However, it soon turns out that the project was a window into the future, and [[ChekhovsArmoury he picked each of these items for some specific purpose to help him survive the dangerous situations he will shortly find himself in.]]

to:

* Subverted in Creator/PhilipKDick's ''Paycheck''. The hero has just had his memory of the last two years of working on a top secret top-secret project erased, and when he picks up his paycheck he discovers that, that for some reason during those two years he decided to ask to be paid not in money but several weird and almost worthless items like a small piece of wire and a bus token. However, it soon turns out that the project was a window into the future, and [[ChekhovsArmoury he picked each of these items for some specific purpose to help him survive the dangerous situations he will shortly find himself in.]]



--->'''Dick:''' How much is a key to a bus locker worth? One day it's worth 25 cents, the next day thousands of dollars. In this story I got to thinking that there are times in our lives when having a dime to make a phone call spells the difference between life and death. Keys, small change, maybe a theater ticket -- how about a parking receipt for a Jaguar? All I had to do was link this idea up with time travel to see how the small and useless, under the wise eyes of a time traveler, might signify a great deal more. He would know when that dime might save your life. And, back in the past again, he might prefer that dime to any amount of money, no matter how large.

to:

--->'''Dick:''' How much is a key to a bus locker worth? One day it's worth 25 cents, the next day thousands of dollars. In this story story, I got to thinking that there are times in our lives when having a dime to make a phone call spells the difference between life and death. Keys, small change, maybe a theater ticket -- how about a parking receipt for a Jaguar? All I had to do was link this idea up with time travel to see how the small and useless, under the wise eyes of a time traveler, might signify a great deal more. He would know when that dime might save your life. And, back in the past again, he might prefer that dime to any amount of money, no matter how large.



* ''Series/{{Reaper}}'': The Devil provides Sam with an object [[SoulJar capable of retrieving the escaped souls]], such as a dust buster or a tennis ball. Funnily enough these are sometimes quite effective. The bad ones are when he gets given seemingly useful ones like a spear -- to fight a Mongol warrior with. Or a boxing glove when facing a champion prizefighter.

to:

* ''Series/{{Reaper}}'': The Devil provides Sam with an object [[SoulJar capable of retrieving the escaped souls]], such as a dust buster or a tennis ball. Funnily enough enough, these are sometimes quite effective. The bad ones are when he gets given seemingly useful ones like a spear -- to fight a Mongol warrior with. Or a boxing glove when facing a champion prizefighter.



* ''[[Series/MysteryScienceTheater3000 MST3K]]'' - in the "Film/TheDayTheEarthFroze" episode, the evil witch challenges the hero to plow a field of snakes - when he challenges her on this point she replies "Hey, ''I'm'' the curse boss here!" In the actual movie she's deliberately wasting his time.

to:

* ''[[Series/MysteryScienceTheater3000 MST3K]]'' - in the "Film/TheDayTheEarthFroze" episode, the evil witch challenges the hero to plow a field of snakes - when he challenges her on this point she replies "Hey, ''I'm'' the curse boss here!" In the actual movie movie, she's deliberately wasting his time.



* ''TabletopGame/D20Modern'', a game that uses ''D&D'''s basic system but in a modern-day setting, avoids this trope like the plague. It's perfectly reasonable and doable to set up a first level party decked out in the best non-magical equipment you can find. However, ''d20 modern'' is less reliant on your equipment than some tabletop games.

to:

* ''TabletopGame/D20Modern'', a game that uses ''D&D'''s basic system but in a modern-day setting, avoids this trope like the plague. It's perfectly reasonable and doable to set up a first level first-level party decked out in the best non-magical equipment you can find. However, ''d20 modern'' is less reliant on your equipment than some tabletop games.



* ''TabletopGame/{{Paranoia}}'', of course, doesn't merely use this trope, it practically embodies it. Almost every piece of equipment given is not only useless for its intended purpose, but is guaranteed to be the cause of death of at least one player character. [[RuleOfFunny Thankfully, there's a reason for this.]]
** ''Paranoia'' does something even worse: It's actually not that odd to get equipment assigned to you. Lots of equipment. Tons of it. Things you don't need, even. But one small detail: You're ''responsible'' for all the equipment given to you and are expected to return it in the same condition you were given it. Yes that includes grenades. This being ''Paranoia'', it hardly needs saying that a failure to do so is treason. Or bringing it back in perfect condition is treason, as you failed to use your resources appropriately. Or both: you get accused of treason for failing to bring one thing back in mint condition ''and'' for failing to use your resources appropriately. Even if, logically, you had no way of knowing that you could set things on fire by pouring the latest version of Bouncy Bubble Beverage on them--or that this was what Friend Computer (or your superiors, [[BadBoss who probably do want you dead]]) wanted, instead of you using your zap-gun or, y'know, a grenade. ''Never'' underestimate the ways you can get killed and/or accused of treason in ''Paranoia''.
** And that's not even getting into the equipment you might get from R&D. Not only does it have to be returned in mint condition, you need to use it at least once during the mission and file a report on it afterwards. You don't have security clearance for the instructions. You might not have security clearance to know what it does. And it has a tendency to [[PhlebotinumBreakdown malfunction]] even ''more'' often than your regular equipment.
* ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'' makes this potentially CrazyAwesome, however, in that there is a Charm (character power) that would potentially allow a character to block a thrown mountain, ''with a butter knife''. And a combat-focused character can take this power ''at starting level''. Needless to say, the butter knife would not survive. Also completely averted through purchasable backgrounds. High levels of Command and Arsenal allow you to start the game with an army of 10,000 men outfitted with the finest mundane equipment available. Pool points with the rest of the party and you can outfit a squadron of 20 foot tall Magitek robots.
* ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' is, as usual, flexible: you generally get a reasonable set of starting cash, you can use an equipment list to buy any items your DM agrees are available, and you can even have a regular income (assuming your character actually has a job and attends to it regularly...) But you can get better starting funds as an Advantage by spending character points, or get extra character points by taking poverty as a Disadvantage.

to:

* ''TabletopGame/{{Paranoia}}'', of course, doesn't merely use this trope, it practically embodies it. Almost every piece of equipment given is not only useless for its intended purpose, purpose but is guaranteed to be the cause of death of at least one player character. [[RuleOfFunny Thankfully, there's a reason for this.]]
** ''Paranoia'' does something even worse: It's actually not that odd to get equipment assigned to you. Lots of equipment. Tons of it. Things you don't need, even. But one small detail: You're ''responsible'' for all the equipment given to you and are expected to return it in the same condition you were given it. Yes Yes, that includes grenades. This being ''Paranoia'', it hardly needs saying that a failure to do so is treason. Or bringing it back in perfect condition is treason, as you failed to use your resources appropriately. Or both: you get accused of treason for failing to bring one thing back in mint condition ''and'' for failing to use your resources appropriately. Even if, logically, you had no way of knowing that you could set things on fire by pouring the latest version of Bouncy Bubble Beverage on them--or that this was what Friend Computer (or your superiors, [[BadBoss who probably do want you dead]]) wanted, instead of you using your zap-gun or, y'know, a grenade. ''Never'' underestimate the ways you can get killed and/or accused of treason in ''Paranoia''.
** And that's not even getting into the equipment you might get from R&D. Not only does it have to be returned in mint condition, but you also need to use it at least once during the mission and file a report on it afterwards. You don't have security clearance for the instructions. You might not have security clearance to know what it does. And it has a tendency to [[PhlebotinumBreakdown malfunction]] even ''more'' often than your regular equipment.
* ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'' makes this potentially CrazyAwesome, however, in that there is a Charm (character power) that would potentially allow a character to block a thrown mountain, ''with a butter knife''. And a combat-focused character can take this power ''at starting level''. Needless to say, the butter knife would not survive. Also completely averted through purchasable backgrounds. High levels of Command and Arsenal allow you to start the game with an army of 10,000 men outfitted with the finest mundane equipment available. Pool points with the rest of the party and you can outfit a squadron of 20 foot 20-foot tall Magitek robots.
* ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' is, as usual, flexible: you generally get a reasonable set of starting cash, you can use an equipment list to buy any items your DM agrees are available, and you can even have a regular income (assuming your character actually has a job and attends to it regularly...) But you can get better starting funds as an Advantage by spending character points, points or get extra character points by taking poverty as a Disadvantage.



** In both ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'' and ''TabletopGame/WarhammerFantasy'' all of your units come with only baseline equipment. Named characters avert this, usually with special powerful equipment exclusive to them or a combination of equipment that stock characters cannot take. It's still this trope though, because you can literally field a unit of elite vanguard units armed with stuff most bread and butter troops wouldn't be caught dead with (and in most cases, it works because the points are better allocated elsewhere).
** The TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 role playing games vary this.

to:

** In both ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'' and ''TabletopGame/WarhammerFantasy'' all of your units come with only baseline equipment. Named characters avert this, usually with special powerful equipment exclusive to them or a combination of equipment that stock characters cannot take. It's still this trope though, though because you can literally field a unit of elite vanguard units armed with stuff most bread and butter troops wouldn't be caught dead with (and in most cases, it works because the points are better allocated elsewhere).
** The TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 role playing role-playing games vary this.



*** ''TabletopGame/DarkHeresy'' was a bit worse about this, since the franchise was only slowly breaking away from traditional adventurer group rpgs and finding its own stride - thus, the agents of the most powerful organization of the Imperium are often equipped with the herring. In that case it often overlaps with OnSiteProcurement; you're supposed to be low-key investigators after all, if they wanted to go in heavy they would have sent one of their many military forces.

to:

*** ''TabletopGame/DarkHeresy'' was a bit worse about this, since the franchise was only slowly breaking away from traditional adventurer group rpgs [=RPGs=] and finding its own stride - thus, the agents of the most powerful organization of the Imperium are often equipped with the herring. In that case case, it often overlaps with OnSiteProcurement; you're supposed to be low-key investigators investigators, after all, if they wanted to go in heavy they would have sent one of their many military forces.



*** {{Averted|Trope}} in ''TabletopGame/{{Necromunda}}''. While in the main ''Warhammer 40,000'' game, the Imperial Guards' lasguns and flak armour (known a flashlights and T-shirts to the fandom) compare poorly to the equipment of other factions, it's usually because those other armies are immortal death machines, spore-based super warriors, or {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s. The Imperial Guard still has ten thousand years of technology and the resources of the quadrillion strong Imperium of Man. Compared to them, the gangs of ''Necromunda'' are, well, slum dwellers. The general lack of armour or sophisticated weapons in the game's [[WretchedHive underhive]] setting makes even basic and improvised weapons like knives, big chunks of pipe, and ordinary pistols (aka "stub guns") reasonably effective. Lasguns are actually toward the high end of the effectiveness scale, and flak armour is elite gear. A single [[SuperSoldier Space Marine]] or Genestealer would be a OneManArmy.

to:

*** {{Averted|Trope}} in ''TabletopGame/{{Necromunda}}''. While in the main ''Warhammer 40,000'' game, the Imperial Guards' lasguns and flak armour (known a flashlights and T-shirts to the fandom) compare poorly to the equipment of other factions, it's usually because those other armies are immortal death machines, spore-based super warriors, or {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s. The Imperial Guard still has ten thousand years of technology and the resources of the quadrillion strong Imperium of Man. Compared to them, the gangs of ''Necromunda'' are, well, slum dwellers. The general lack of armour or sophisticated weapons in the game's [[WretchedHive underhive]] setting makes even basic and improvised weapons like knives, big chunks of pipe, and ordinary pistols (aka "stub guns") reasonably effective. Lasguns are actually toward the high end of the effectiveness scale, and flak armour is elite gear. A single [[SuperSoldier Space Marine]] or Genestealer would be a OneManArmy.



* ''Webcomic/TowerOfGod'': Baam takes the test given by Headon with just a cleaver. Thankfully, Yuri [[DynamicEntry enters onto his face]] and she and Evan give him an A-grade pocket and the [[EmpathicWeapon Black March]], so this trope gets subverted. It's better that way, since the cleaver broke very quickly.

to:

* ''Webcomic/TowerOfGod'': Baam takes the test given by Headon with just a cleaver. Thankfully, Yuri [[DynamicEntry enters onto his face]] and she and Evan give him an A-grade pocket and the [[EmpathicWeapon Black March]], so this trope gets subverted. It's better that way, way since the cleaver broke very quickly.



** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.

to:

** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft driveshaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, equipment and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.



** The first half of WWI was another example for Canada given their initial equipment, such as rifles that got easily jammed with mud, disassembled when fired, wore boots with such poor stitching that they fell apart with the slightest wear, and a shovel designed with a ''hole in it''. Their early reputation as ''Stosstruppen'', assault troops, partly evolved from a lack of functional equipment for an ordinary firefight.

to:

** The first half of WWI was another example for Canada given their initial equipment, such as rifles that got easily jammed with mud, disassembled when fired, wore boots with such poor stitching that they fell apart with the slightest wear, wear and a shovel designed with a ''hole in it''. Their early reputation as ''Stosstruppen'', assault troops, partly evolved from a lack of functional equipment for an ordinary firefight.



* In the first year of the Soviet-German War, regular Red Army combat units underwent a more than 300% turnover (4 million captured of whom almost all died or [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust were enslaved and then euthanised when they became Unfit-for-Work]], 2 million dead in combat and of wounds, and 4 million hospitalised for wounds of a pre-war strength of 3 million) in personnel. The turnover in Penal Battalion (a ''Shtrafbat'' was a unit of up to 1000 men) units, in which deserters and criminals were offered the opportunity to earn their freedom by serving in the thick of the fighting, was even higher. There are even rumours that in this first year, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat#Infantry_battalions several were used for 'combat reconnaisance' (drawing fire to expose the positions of enemy units) or actual combat when only semi-armed or possibly unarmed]]. It is unclear whether the pragmatic arguments for equipping these the ''Shtrafbaty'' well, as they saw the heaviest combat, won out over the inclination to avoid favouring cowards, criminals, and traitors when the material situation improved in the war's second year and began outstripping the Germans' in the third.

to:

* In the first year of the Soviet-German War, regular Red Army combat units underwent a more than 300% turnover (4 million captured of whom almost all died or [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust were enslaved and then euthanised when they became Unfit-for-Work]], 2 million dead in combat and of wounds, and 4 million hospitalised for wounds of a pre-war strength of 3 million) in personnel. The turnover in Penal Battalion (a ''Shtrafbat'' was a unit of up to 1000 men) units, in which deserters and criminals were offered the opportunity to earn their freedom by serving in the thick of the fighting, was even higher. There are even rumours that in this first year, [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat#Infantry_battalions several were used for 'combat reconnaisance' reconnaissance' (drawing fire to expose the positions of enemy units) or actual combat when only semi-armed or possibly unarmed]]. It is unclear whether the pragmatic arguments for equipping these the ''Shtrafbaty'' well, as they saw the heaviest combat, won out over the inclination to avoid favouring cowards, criminals, and traitors when the material situation improved in the war's second year and began outstripping the Germans' in the third.



* This was actually common up until the advent of standing armies. Many medieval or Roman era soldiers were expected to provide their own equipment, especially horses. In most cases it hardly fits the trope, as knights were expected to pay all military expenses of themselves and their retainers, but it was part of the feudal contract. Not to mention that Roman equites and medieval knight were usually quite resourceful and more than often THEY were the authority responsible for adequate equipment, responsibility which was later transferred to centralized government.

to:

* This was actually common up until the advent of standing armies. Many medieval or Roman era soldiers were expected to provide their own equipment, especially horses. In most cases cases, it hardly fits the trope, as knights were expected to pay all military expenses of themselves and their retainers, but it was part of the feudal contract. Not to mention that Roman equites and medieval knight were usually quite resourceful and more than often THEY were the authority responsible for adequate equipment, responsibility which was later transferred to centralized government.



* The Confederacy was plagued by logistics problems throughout UsefulNotes/TheAmericanCivilWar. When it started they had no capability to manufacture artillery (and when they developed it the results were sub-standard and inaccurate), their rail system was badly placed to move troops through the interior of the country, and for some reason they had a chronic shoe shortage for basically the entire war. Some Confederate re-enactors like to think this was ''planned'', claiming that since the high (c.50%) import tariffs on manufactured goods - like machine parts - kept the South dependent on the North for building up its industry and supplying it with factory-produced consumer and other goods. This is true, insofar as it really was a side-effect of the US' longstanding protectionist economic policies.
* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one shot at a time (and no means of reloading quickly), a maximum lifespan of about 50 shots, and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was basically good for just one thing: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, kill him with one shot at point blank range, and steal his weapon. It came in a waterproof box with ten rounds of ammunition, a wooden dowel to push spent casings out of the chamber, and a set of cartoon instructions. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of their bombers as delivering, well, bombs. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Phillipines. In the grand scheme of things, most of the Liberators that were produced went unused and were destroyed after the war.

to:

* The Confederacy was plagued by logistics problems throughout UsefulNotes/TheAmericanCivilWar. When it started they had no capability to manufacture artillery (and when they developed it the results were sub-standard and inaccurate), their rail system was badly placed to move troops through the interior of the country, and for some reason reason, they had a chronic shoe shortage for basically the entire war. Some Confederate re-enactors like to think this was ''planned'', claiming that since the high (c.50%) import tariffs on manufactured goods - like machine parts - kept the South dependent on the North for building up its industry and supplying it with factory-produced consumer and other goods. This is true, insofar as it really was a side-effect of the US' longstanding protectionist economic policies.
* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass produced mass-produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one shot at a time (and no means of reloading quickly), a maximum lifespan of about 50 shots, and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was basically good for just one thing: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, kill him with one shot at point blank point-blank range, and steal his weapon. It came in a waterproof box with ten rounds of ammunition, a wooden dowel to push spent casings out of the chamber, and a set of cartoon instructions. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of their bombers as delivering, well, bombs. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Phillipines.Philippines. In the grand scheme of things, most of the Liberators that were produced went unused and were destroyed after the war.



** Italy started WorldWarI with insufficient numbers of ''everything'', and especially machine guns, due a combination of political interference and incompetence, the first competent commander-in-chief in a long time, Alberto Pollio, having to face serious interference due his political leanings (being favorable to the Triple Alliance in a political climate favoring ditching Germany and the ArchEnemy Austria-Hungary for the other side) ''and'' organize the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Turkish_War conquest of Libya]] before his highly suspicious death in 1914, Pollio's successor Cadorna having to start from scratch as he was his political opponent and couldn't take advantage of his predecessor's connections, and a beyond stupid political attitude about the acquisition of machine guns.[[note]]After buying an initial batch of Vickers, Italy resolved to use a national design, and obtained the effective [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perino_Model_1908 Perino machine gun]]... Whose acquisition was stopped at 150 units due a combination of a heavy tripod (a problem that the inventor himself provided to solve with a new lighter tripod) and [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem the head of the commission that was to decide if continue production being the inventor of the competing but inferior FIAT 1914 machine gun]]. As the FIAT machine gun was crap, Pollio and his successor Cadorna resolved to buy more Vickers... That were never delivered, even if the ministry paid them in advance, due the start of the war and Italy being nominally allied with Britain's enemies. Hence the adoption of the FIAT machine gun, much to Cadorna's consternation as he had no idea the weight issues of the Perino had been solved and the others were fabrications.[[/note]] The problems were mostly solved by 1917, in time to contribute to Italy's successful defense of the Grappa Massif after the Austro-Hungarian breakthrough at Caporetto, and completely solved with American help by the summer.

to:

** Italy started WorldWarI with insufficient numbers of ''everything'', and especially machine guns, due a combination of political interference and incompetence, the first competent commander-in-chief in a long time, Alberto Pollio, having to face serious interference due his political leanings (being favorable to the Triple Alliance in a political climate favoring ditching Germany and the ArchEnemy Austria-Hungary for the other side) ''and'' organize the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Turkish_War conquest of Libya]] before his highly suspicious death in 1914, Pollio's successor Cadorna having to start from scratch as he was his political opponent and couldn't take advantage of his predecessor's connections, and a beyond stupid political attitude about the acquisition of machine guns.[[note]]After buying an initial batch of Vickers, Italy resolved to use a national design, design and obtained the effective [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perino_Model_1908 Perino machine gun]]... Whose acquisition was stopped at 150 units due a combination of a heavy tripod (a problem that the inventor himself provided to solve with a new lighter tripod) and [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem the head of the commission that was to decide if continue production being the inventor of the competing but inferior FIAT 1914 machine gun]]. As the FIAT machine gun was crap, Pollio and his successor Cadorna resolved to buy more Vickers... That that were never delivered, even if the ministry paid them in advance, due to the start of the war and Italy being nominally allied with Britain's enemies. Hence the adoption of the FIAT machine gun, much to Cadorna's consternation as he had no idea the weight issues of the Perino had been solved and the others were fabrications.[[/note]] The problems were mostly solved by 1917, in time to contribute to Italy's successful defense of the Grappa Massif after the Austro-Hungarian breakthrough at Caporetto, and completely solved with American help by the summer.


** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German heavy armor at range, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--Another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.
** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was now ineffective, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle even without massive artillery and air support, largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman may not have been a great fighter by late war standards, but it was a logistician's dream.

to:

** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German heavy armor at range, armor, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons cannons' continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame--Another frame--another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums.
** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was now ineffective, ineffective against German tanks, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.
crews.
** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle even without battle--even at the times when they didn't get massive artillery and air support, largely support--largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman may not have been a great fighter by late war standards, but it was a logistician's dream.


** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German heavy armor at range, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.

to:

** The US M4 Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as a medium cavalry tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and it had great strategic mobility and mechanical reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German heavy armor at range, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new weapons system before they would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 and introducing the heavier M26 Pershing. There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much more than the test plate they had used.


Added DiffLines:

** Ultimately, these problems didn't prevent US armored forces from crushing the Germans in battle even without massive artillery and air support, largely thanks to better crew quality, complete motorization of all US divisions, ability to maintain and repair tanks, ability to replace destroyed tanks, and having way more ammunition and fuel than the Germans had. The Sherman may not have been a great fighter by late war standards, but it was a logistician's dream.


** The most numerous tank used by the Western Allies in [=WW2=] was the US M4 Sherman, which had been designed back in 1940 to serve as an armored cavalry tank and be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. It was world-class when it came out in 1942, and lent itself to repeated upgrades, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its protection problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, and ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire. The Sherman had been performing well in other theaters right up until D-Day, and intelligence was not aware just how many Panther tanks Germany was producing. The policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, requiring new projects to be justified in terms of battle need rather than how they might solve hypothetical problems such as a conjectural tank arms race. This, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 as well as the delayed development of the M26 Pershing. When British and American tankers realised how much danger they were in they tried to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like steel tracks, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame.[[note]]Another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums[[/note]]
** When the U.S. invaded and occupied Iraq starting in 2003, they had the equipment and vehicles to fight a conventional war but proved unequipped for the asymmetric warfare and insurgency that followed. For example, the HMMWV/Humvee utility vehicle was frequently caught in urban combat or blown up with improvised explosive devices despite not being intended for front line combat and having no armor. U.S. troops had to resort to "hillbilly armor", putting sheet metal and other scraps on their Humvees as armour kits. Proper armor kits were soon developed, but the vehicles' performance and reliability were reduced by adding a bunch of armor to a platform that hadn't been designed for it, necessitating the development of purpose-built Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles.

to:

* In 1944 and '45, United States tankers in Northern Europe began to feel let down by the M4 Sherman medium tank. Some would accuse the military of not providing them with good equipment, and Belton Cooper's book ''Death Traps'' would give the Sherman its NeverLiveItDown postwar reputation, which is significantly exaggerated and undeserved (only 3% of US tankers got killed, a percentage so small it's incredible). In fact, thanks to the crew ergonomics and hatch design it was probably the easiest tank in World War Two to bail out of quickly. There was a reason for the backlash, though, and how it came about requires some context.
** The most numerous tank used by the Western Allies in [=WW2=] was the US M4 Sherman, which Sherman had been designed back in 1940 to serve as an armored a medium cavalry tank and tank, mainly to be used for exploitation but also to be capable of killing any Panzer II or III tanks it ran into. It was world-class when it came out Its combat characteristics were more than adequate upon first combat in 1942, and lent itself to repeated upgrades, it had great strategic mobility and reliability throughout the war, but as Operation Overlord loomed in 1944 the Sherman was growing, in David Fletcher's words, "a little long in the tooth". Among its protection problems were a high silhouette stemming the use of a radial engine and drive shaft passing under the fighting compartment, narrow tracks that sometimes sank into mud, overall armor and weight limited for the sake of mobility, and ammo racks in the high side sponsons above the tracks where they were more likely to take a hit through the side and catch fire. fire, a dual-purpose 75 mm gun which lacked the velocity for penetrating late war German heavy armor at range, and a small turret that made up-gunning the tank difficult. The Sherman had been performing well in other theaters right up until D-Day, and intelligence was not aware just how many Panther tanks Germany was producing. The kept its primary place for so long because the policy of Army Ground Forces then was to favor proven equipment, requiring and to require extremely thorough quality testing of any new projects to be justified in terms of battle need rather than how weapons system before they might solve hypothetical problems such as a conjectural tank arms race. This, would approve its use overseas. These policies, along with the Tank Destroyer doctrine, contributed to slow progress in upgunning the M4 as well as and introducing the delayed development of the heavier M26 Pershing. When British There was a false sense of security from the fact that the Sherman had been performing well in Italy despite occasional complaints about the gun and American tankers realised how armor, and US intelligence was not aware of the full capability and numbers of the new German Panther tank. They had also conducted armor penetration tests which satisfied them of the 75 and 76 mm cannons continued effectiveness, not realizing that actual German armor was hardened much danger more than the test plate they were in they tried had used.
** Therefore, when the hedgerow terrain of Normandy prevented them from using maneuver and forced them into head-on slugging matches with Panthers, the tank forces had a MassOhCrap experience. They started
to up-armor their tanks in any way they could, including using things like steel tracks, spare track, concrete, sandbags, netting, and even wood. Ordinance testing determined that these found materials provided little protection and served mainly to weigh down the tank while giving the crew a false sense of security. General Patton cracked down on this kind of low-quality hillbilly armour after listening to his ordinance officers, and Third Army instead came up with the practice of stripping armour plate off wrecks of ''any'' nationality and welding it onto their own vehicles. It was distinguished with the official-sounding name ''appliqué armour'' and was adopted by several other US Armored Groups. German armour was especially favoured for this purpose, and many wrecked Panthers and Tigers were stripped down to the frame.[[note]]Another frame--Another reason why so few survived the war to be reconditioned for museums[[/note]]
museums.
** Lack of firepower was unfortunately something which no field expedient could correct. The 75 mm was now ineffective, the 76 wasn't as big an improvement as had been hoped, and the Tank Destroyers were similarly undergunned. The M36 Jackson tank destroyer (gun motor carriage if you want to get technical) with the 90 mm was greatly appreciated when introduced, but like the other guns its effectiveness was limited by perhaps the biggest failing of the US armored forces, which is that they did not produce and distribute enough hypervelocity armor piercing (HVAP) ammunition for the crews.
*
When the U.S. invaded and occupied Iraq starting in 2003, they had the equipment and vehicles to fight a conventional war but proved unequipped for the asymmetric warfare and insurgency that followed. For example, the HMMWV/Humvee utility vehicle was frequently caught in urban combat or blown up with improvised explosive devices despite not being intended for front line combat and having no armor. U.S. troops had to resort to "hillbilly armor", putting sheet metal and other scraps on their Humvees as armour kits. Proper armor kits were soon developed, but the vehicles' performance and reliability were reduced by adding a bunch of armor to a platform that hadn't been designed for it, necessitating the development of purpose-built Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles.


** The TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 role playing games vary this. ''TabletopGame/DeathWatch'' starts you and your battle brothers with gear that is decent - for a value of "decent" that 99% of the Imperium's armed forces would lie, steal and murder for. ''TabletopGame/RogueTrader'' also averts this - the question is not whether you can afford a Lasgun, but whether you can afford ten thousand of them for your household troops (and the answer is usually "Sure, take it out of the petty cash!"). ''TabletopGame/DarkHeresy'' was a bit worse about this, since the franchise was only slowly breaking away from traditional adventurer group rpgs and finding its own stride - thus, the agents of the most powerful organization of the Imperium are often equipped with the herring. In that case it often overlaps with OnSiteProcurement; you're supposed to be low-key investigators after all, if they wanted to go in heavy they would have sent one of their many military forces. TabletopGame/OnlyWar finally usually averts this, but also occasionally indulges the trope: The players can first build their regiment which gives them a good set of standard equipment useful for their troop type. Then comes the [[RandomNumberGod logistics roll]] that determines whether the Departmento Munitorum assigns you 20 kg of explosives for the sabotage mission... [[RuleOfFunny or 20 crates of Ogryn dress uniforms.]]

to:

** The TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 role playing games vary this. this.
***
''TabletopGame/DeathWatch'' starts you and your battle brothers with gear that is decent - for a value of "decent" that 99% of the Imperium's armed forces would lie, steal and murder for. for.
***
''TabletopGame/RogueTrader'' also averts this - the question is not whether you can afford a Lasgun, but whether you can afford ten thousand of them for your household troops (and the answer is usually "Sure, take it out of the petty cash!"). cash!").
***
''TabletopGame/DarkHeresy'' was a bit worse about this, since the franchise was only slowly breaking away from traditional adventurer group rpgs and finding its own stride - thus, the agents of the most powerful organization of the Imperium are often equipped with the herring. In that case it often overlaps with OnSiteProcurement; you're supposed to be low-key investigators after all, if they wanted to go in heavy they would have sent one of their many military forces. TabletopGame/OnlyWar forces.
*** ''TabletopGame/OnlyWar''
finally usually averts this, but also occasionally indulges the trope: The players can first build their regiment which gives them a good set of standard equipment useful for their troop type. Then comes the [[RandomNumberGod logistics roll]] that determines whether the Departmento Munitorum assigns you 20 kg of explosives for the sabotage mission... [[RuleOfFunny or 20 crates of Ogryn dress uniforms.]]]]
*** {{Averted|Trope}} in ''TabletopGame/{{Necromunda}}''. While in the main ''Warhammer 40,000'' game, the Imperial Guards' lasguns and flak armour (known a flashlights and T-shirts to the fandom) compare poorly to the equipment of other factions, it's usually because those other armies are immortal death machines, spore-based super warriors, or {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s. The Imperial Guard still has ten thousand years of technology and the resources of the quadrillion strong Imperium of Man. Compared to them, the gangs of ''Necromunda'' are, well, slum dwellers. The general lack of armour or sophisticated weapons in the game's [[WretchedHive underhive]] setting makes even basic and improvised weapons like knives, big chunks of pipe, and ordinary pistols (aka "stub guns") reasonably effective. Lasguns are actually toward the high end of the effectiveness scale, and flak armour is elite gear. A single [[SuperSoldier Space Marine]] or Genestealer would be a OneManArmy.



** {{Averted|Trope}} in ''TabletopGame/{{Necromunda}}''. While in the main ''Warhammer 40,000'' game, the Imperial Guards' lasguns and flak armour are compare poorly to the equipment of other factions, it's usually because those other armies are immortal death machines, spore-based super warriors, or {{Sufficiently Advanced Alien}}s. The Imperial Guard still has ten thousand years of technology and the resources of the quadrillion strong Imperium of Man. Compared to them, the gangs of ''Necromunda'' are, well, slum dwellers. The general lack of armour or sophisticated weapons in the game's [[WretchedHive underhive]] setting makes even basic and improvised weapons like knives, big chunks of pipe, and ordinary pistols (aka "stub guns") reasonably effective. Lasguns are actually toward the high end of the effectiveness scale, and flak armour is elite gear. A single [[SuperSoldier Space Marine]] or Genestealer would be a, OneManArmy.


* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one bullet (reloading required manually opening the breech and pushing the empty cartridge out the back with a ramrod before inserting a new round, way too slow to do in combat) and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was good for one thing only: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, shoot him at point blank range, and steal his weapon. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of their bombers as delivering, well, bombs. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Phillipines. In the grand scheme of things, most of the Liberators that were produced went unused and were destroyed after the war.

to:

* The [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator FP-45 Liberator]] was a small single-shot .45 caliber pistol developed by the U.S. Army during UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo, designed to be cheaply mass produced and then distributed to resistance fighters throughout occupied Europe. The extremely rudimentary design included a 4-inch unrifled tube for the barrel and extensive use of stamped sheet metal. 300 workers at the Guide Lamp Division of General Motors put together one million pistols in a mere ''13 weeks'', which were priced at $2.10 apiece. The idea was for bomber planes to drop large numbers of them into European cities with a significant [[LaResistance resistance]] presence. With just one bullet (reloading required manually opening the breech and pushing the empty cartridge out the back with shot at a ramrod before inserting time (and no means of reloading quickly), a new round, way too slow to do in combat) maximum lifespan of about 50 shots, and an effective range of no more than 8 yards, the FP-45 was basically good for just one thing only: thing: to sneak up on an Axis soldier, shoot kill him with one shot at point blank range, and steal his weapon.weapon. It came in a waterproof box with ten rounds of ammunition, a wooden dowel to push spent casings out of the chamber, and a set of cartoon instructions. Alas, there was a problem: The Americans sent 500,000 Liberators to the British, but the Brits didn't think that delivering Liberators was as efficient a use of their bombers as delivering, well, bombs. They did end up giving some out to Greek partisans, at least. The 500,000 that stayed in America also had a hard time finding homes, and the few that were distributed went mostly to India, China, and particularly the Phillipines. In the grand scheme of things, most of the Liberators that were produced went unused and were destroyed after the war.

Showing 15 edit(s) of 152

Top

How well does it match the trope?

Example of:

/

Media sources:

/

Report