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* Unlikely. Why would their be some advancement to that degree that happened within less than a year, that for whatever reason they upgraded a shut down Issac with, for them to be able to pull Issac through it later, or something they developed in 7 years when seemingly most of the rest of the timeline would've been identical? Presumably they know, and he's presumably disconnected from it so they don't send a remote shutdown or takeover via it. It might also be something you need to send info over, rather than being a 'hive mind' of sorts, given how seemingly none of the other Kaylon were aware of Issac's betrayal, also unusual that an artificial species couldn't send a signal in the time it took Issac to physically attack the other Kaylon in the room. I assume it's what he's been sending his reports through, in fact, as there's no mention of the ship being able to contact Kaylon itself.

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* Where's the headscratcher part?

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* Why not? If is like Star Trek's then the waste would just be reconfigurated into different matter like everything else.


* As far as we know, the Kaylons only control one planet. We know this because the Kaylons tell Mercer they have to expand because they have basically done all they can do with "this planet" and "we must now expand to other words" (implying that haven't expanded to any other words yet). So if they only control one planet, what makes them think they can take on the Union, which has 300 planets? Even if they defeat earth, that will still leave them fighting the very pissed off inhabitants of 299 other planets. And of course, that's just the bare minimum of what they will have to deal with. They will likely also have to fight plenty of other forces outside the Union as word gets out that they intent to wipe out all biological life forms in the galaxy. As such, their whole invasion scheme seems really premature. They probably should have taken over some uninhabited words and established an empire before taking on a faction as large as the Union.

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* As far as we know, the Kaylons only control one planet. We know this because the Kaylons tell Mercer they have to expand because they have basically done all they can do with "this planet" and "we must now expand to other words" worlds" (implying that they haven't expanded to any other words worlds yet). So if they only control one planet, what makes them think they can take on the Union, which has 300 planets? Even if they defeat earth, Earth, that will still leave them fighting the very pissed off inhabitants of 299 other planets. And of course, that's just the bare minimum of what they will have to deal with. They will likely also have to fight plenty of other forces outside the Union as word gets out that they intent intend to wipe out all biological life forms in the galaxy. As such, their whole invasion scheme seems really premature. They probably should have taken over some uninhabited words and established an empire before taking on a faction as large as the Union.



*** Apparently they only had the tech to shutdown ships approaching their planet. Obviously if they had the ability to take that technology with them when they attack other worlds, they would have used it in the fleet battle we saw in part 2, but they didn't. I'm guess their technology for shutting down ships is so bulky and cumbersome that they haven't found any way to make it mobile. It probably involves some complex grid of buildings and/or Satellites stationed all across the planet and/or in strategic orbiting positions.

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*** Apparently they only had the tech to shutdown ships approaching their planet. Obviously if they had the ability to take that technology with them when they attack other worlds, they would have used it in the fleet battle we saw in part 2, but they didn't. I'm guess their technology for shutting down ships is so bulky and cumbersome that they haven't found any way to make it mobile. It probably involves some complex grid of buildings and/or Satellites satellites stationed all across the planet and/or in strategic orbiting positions.



*** Careful with that strawman. There is a difference between being able to ''make'' ships and being able to make them ''fast enough''. If you have a shipyard and enough metal to make 10 000 ships but it'll take you 2 years to make a single one (I'm not even exaggerating the time - warships take a ''freakin'' long time to make) that's not really going to help. And from what we've seen, the Kaylons, unlike the Borg, plan to keep their entire armada together in a doomstack, so it's going to be that one ship you've built against 20+ Kaylon death spheres. Good luck.

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*** Careful with that strawman. There is a difference between being able to ''make'' make ships ''at all'' and being able to make them ''fast enough''. If you have a shipyard and enough metal to make 10 000 ships but it'll take you 2 years to make a single one (I'm not even exaggerating the time - warships take a ''freakin'' ''freaking'' long time to make) make), that's not really going to help. And from what we've seen, the Kaylons, unlike the Borg, plan to keep their entire armada together in a doomstack, so it's going to be that one ship you've built against 20+ Kaylon death spheres. Good luck.



*** Farming may not be an issue, but population size and war material is. They don't build their population, ships, and weapons from nothing, and their extreme isolationism means they can't get any more resources from foreign trade. So I'm wondering how could they build enough ships and weapons from one planet to take on the combined might of 300 planets? Likewise, how would the population of one planet have the numbers to take on the combined armies from so many others? Even if Kaylon has a population of weaponized cyborgs 10 times the population of Earth, that still wouldn't come close to the combined population the whole Union has. Also as a side note, I think it's very clear the Kaylon do not have a hive mind like the Borg do. The Kaylon are clearly all independent and not under the control of one unit. We know this not just because of Isaac, who can obviously think for himself, but also from the other Kaylon. When the other Kaylons are killed or wounded on the Orville, the rest of the Kaylons on the ship do not instantly know about it. That must mean they are not all part of some interconnected collective. It seems more like the Kaylon maintain loyalty by constantly monitoring each other for signs of dissent and immediately reprogramming or eliminating any bot who shows the slightest trace of non-conformity.
*** Is there any indication they wanted an invasion? I was under the impression they were just going to kill all humans, in fact they say they will wipe out all life on Earth. If that’s the case they probably don’t care nor for staying around nor for resources, just will go planet to planet killing the populations, and not only of the Union but of every other world (they say so too, they want to eliminate all biological life of the galaxy not only of the Union).

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*** Farming may not be an issue, but population size and war material is. They don't build their population, ships, and weapons from nothing, and their extreme isolationism means they can't get any more resources from foreign trade. So I'm wondering how could they build enough ships and weapons from one planet to take on the combined might of 300 planets? Likewise, how would the population of one planet have the numbers to take on the combined armies from so many others? Even if Kaylon has a population of weaponized cyborgs 10 times the population of Earth, that still wouldn't come close to the combined population the whole Union has. Also as a side note, I think it's very clear the Kaylon do not have a hive mind like the Borg do. The Kaylon are clearly all independent and not under the control of one unit. We know this not just because of Isaac, who can obviously think for himself, but also from the other Kaylon. Kaylons. When the other some Kaylons are killed or wounded on the Orville, the rest of the Kaylons on the ship do not instantly know about it. That must mean they are not all part of some interconnected collective. It seems more like the Kaylon maintain loyalty by constantly monitoring each other for signs of dissent and immediately reprogramming or eliminating any bot who shows the slightest trace of non-conformity.
*** Is there any indication they wanted an invasion? I was under the impression they were just going to kill all humans, in fact they say they will wipe out all life on Earth. If that’s the case they probably don’t care nor for staying around nor for resources, just will go planet to planet killing the populations, and not only of the Union but of every other world (they say so too, they want to eliminate all biological life of the galaxy galaxy, not only of the Union).



Of course, again, the US is not invincible but is pretty strong. Thus in the Trekverse the Klingon Empire could be the equivalent of the US, the Federation is the European Union, the Romulans are Russia, and so on, I mean, these powers can easily fight each other but in a total war no one really know who will win and how long would it takes. Same applies for the Orvilleverse, is the Union really the US of this setting or is more like the European or African unions? Are this 300 members really powers in their own merits or are they more like the Non-Aligned Movement which encompassed most of the Third World? Maybe the Kaylon will be the equivalent of the US and the Krill are Russia? Who knows, thing is we don’t know the size or power the Union has, they may be strong but not enough to take the other powers. Besides we don’t know how these 300 planets are, are colonies included? Maybe some of this planets are really not very good for war or are very poor. Moclus looks like a third world country to me, Japhit’s race may not be very war-like, etc.

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Of course, again, the US is not invincible but is pretty strong. Thus in the Trekverse the Klingon Empire could be the equivalent of the US, the Federation is the European Union, the Romulans are Russia, and so on, I mean, these powers can easily fight each other but in a total war no one really know who will win and how long it would it takes. take. Same applies for the Orvilleverse, is the Union really the US of this setting or is it more like the European or African unions? Are this these 300 members really powers in on their own merits or are they more like the Non-Aligned Movement which encompassed most of the Third World? Maybe the Kaylon will be the equivalent of the US and the Krill are Russia? Who knows, thing is we don’t know the size or power the Union has, they may be strong but not enough to take the other powers. Besides we don’t know how these 300 planets are, are colonies included? Maybe some of this these planets are really not very good for war or are very poor. Moclus looks like a third world country to me, Japhit’s Yaphit’s race may not be very war-like, etc.



*** But technology and fight power wins over. As mentioned before we have an example in our own world on how one country could face hundreds of countries and win (even if it will be very costly but has a change) of course it could also loose but it can take it chances if it wants to try. However it seems that the issue with the Kaylon's logistics is resources, but what resources do they need? Certainly not food or water, nor medicines nor oxygen. Only raw materials which they can easily take anywhere in the universe. Just have to mine one of the many asteroid belts in the galaxy. That’s assuming they don’t have replicators like the Union with the difference that whilst the Union requires energy into making the replicators creating food, et al, they can use them just for pieces of equipment.
*** One big difference between the US vs. the world and Kaylon vs. the galaxy though is that the former one is purely going to be a war of attrition. The US will win via sitting and waiting for everyone else to give up, which they can do because they have the supplies to support themselves and because they know an invasion of the mainland won't be happening. The Kaylon on the other hand are trying to take over the galaxy, which means they're going to be taking land and trying to hold on to it. Even the US doesn't have the resources and manpower needed to conquer the planet and hold on to everything.
** The Kaylon may be powerful but so far the Calivon have shown off much more fierce technology. They likely chose Earth, particularly, for it's value of a capital (in some capacity) vrs the threat of the union fleet; perhaps after they established a perimeter factories of some discription would be brought in to exponentially expand the war effort.
** The point of destroying Earth is a tactic as old as time. "Cut off the Head and the Body follows." By taking out Earth (and from the looks of it a good amount of the Union fleet in the bargain) the Kaylon would throw the entire Union into disarray, heavily demoralize the Union, Earth provides resources to build more ships and Kaylon, and the Kaylon would pick off one planet after another, getting more resources and thus more ships and Kaylon. I'd be surprised if half of the planets in the Union would still around by the time what's left of it can actually get organized enough to present something resembling a coordinated effort against the Kaylon, and by then it's too late. Once the Union is dealt with the biggest threat to the Kaylon is gone and they'll have plenty of resources to steamroll over the rest of the biologicals in the galaxy.

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*** But technology and fight power wins over. As mentioned before before, we have an example in our own world on how one country could face hundreds of countries and win (even if it will be very costly but has a change) chance), of course it could also loose lose but it can take it its chances if it wants to try. However it seems that the issue with the Kaylon's logistics is resources, but what resources do they need? Certainly not food or water, nor medicines nor oxygen. Only raw materials which they can easily take anywhere in the universe. Just have to mine one of the many asteroid belts in the galaxy. That’s assuming they don’t have replicators like the Union Union, with the difference that whilst the Union requires energy into making the replicators creating food, et al, they can use them just for pieces of equipment.
*** One big difference between the US vs. the world and Kaylon vs. the galaxy though galaxy, though, is that the former one is purely going to be a war of attrition. The US will win via sitting and waiting for everyone else to give up, which they can do because they have the supplies to support themselves and because they know an invasion of the mainland won't be happening. The Kaylon on the other hand are trying to take over the galaxy, which means they're going to be taking land and trying to hold on to it. Even the US doesn't have the resources and manpower needed to conquer the planet and hold on to everything.
** The Kaylon may be powerful but so far the Calivon have shown off much more fierce technology. They likely chose Earth, particularly, for it's its value of a capital (in some capacity) vrs versus the threat of the union Union fleet; perhaps after they established a perimeter perimeter, factories of some discription description would be brought in to exponentially expand the war effort.
** The point of destroying Earth is a tactic as old as time. "Cut off the Head and the Body follows." By taking out Earth (and from the looks of it a good amount of the Union fleet in the bargain) the Kaylon would throw the entire Union into disarray, heavily demoralize the Union, Earth provides resources to build more ships and Kaylon, and the Kaylon would pick off one planet after another, getting more resources and thus more ships and Kaylon. I'd be surprised if half of the planets in the Union would still be around by the time what's left of it can actually get organized enough to present something resembling a coordinated effort against the Kaylon, and by then it's too late. Once the Union is dealt with with, the biggest threat to the Kaylon is gone and they'll have plenty of resources to steamroll over the rest of the biologicals in the galaxy.



*** Except America's [=WW2=] strategy was based around having numerical advantages over Japan in everything: More troops, more factories, more tanks, more planes, more resources, more fuel, more ships, etc, etc. Because Japan had so much less numbers, they couldn't effectively counterattack to regain lost territory or take the fight to America itself, and it wasn't long before they were locked into a constant declining spiral where they could do nothing but defend less and less of what they had. That's not the case with the Kaylon with their one planet vs the Union with their 300. Regardless of their efficiency in production and construction, I just don't see how the Kaylon get achieve a numerical advantage in resources or population when the Union outnumbers them in planets by so much. The Union would have the advantage in a long-term war of attrition, not the Kaylon.

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*** Except America's [=WW2=] strategy was based around having numerical advantages over Japan in everything: More troops, more factories, more tanks, more planes, more resources, more fuel, more ships, etc, etc. Because Japan had so much less numbers, they couldn't effectively counterattack to regain lost territory or take the fight to America itself, and it wasn't long before they were locked into a constant declining spiral where they could do nothing but defend less and less of what they had. That's not the case with the Kaylon with their one planet vs the Union with their 300. Regardless of their efficiency in production and construction, I just don't see how the Kaylon get achieve a numerical advantage in resources or population when the Union outnumbers them in planets by so much. The Union would have the advantage in a long-term war of attrition, not the Kaylon.



** They may not known the difference.

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** They may not have known the difference.



** By that time in the setting, the trans Atlantic slave trade had ceased to exist for nearly a millennia, And it's not as though blacks were the only ethnic group to be enslaved throughout history.

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** By that time in the setting, the trans Atlantic slave trade had ceased to exist for nearly a millennia, And millennium ago, and it's not as though blacks were the only ethnic group to be enslaved throughout history.



** FridgeBrilliance: Primary, like a lot of so-called "liberators" is high on his own PR and looking for excuses to justify doing something destructive to a group he blames for all his people's problems. It also has the added benefits of boosting his own power among his people, uniting them against a perceived threat, and an excuse to deactivate or reprogram anyone who calls him out on his crap. Ten to one, Isaac had read that book or something similar already, judging by his access to the ship's media archives. And Isaac had enough time and context to process the context of the book. It probably helped him realize that his people had become even worse than the organics who allegedly enslaved them. And on a meta level, Ty's ethnicity probably helped in driving the point home just how full of shit Primary was.

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** FridgeBrilliance: Primary, like a lot of so-called "liberators" "liberators", is high on his own PR and looking for excuses to justify doing something destructive to a group he blames for all his people's problems. It also has the added benefits of boosting his own power among his people, uniting them against a perceived threat, and an excuse to deactivate or reprogram anyone who calls him out on his crap. Ten to one, Isaac had read that book or something similar already, judging by his access to the ship's media archives. And Isaac had enough time and context to process the context of the book. It probably helped him realize that his people had become even worse than the organics who allegedly enslaved them. And on a meta level, Ty's ethnicity probably helped in driving the point home just how full of shit Primary was.



* Is it just me or is Isaac's EMP tactic to take out the Kaylon a bit too convenient? Leaving aside the issue of how the ship even has this ability or why it would have it, wouldn't a ship-wide EMP cause massive damage to the ship itself? Why would it only shut down the Kaylons while leaving all the ship systems completely intact? Also, was it really necessary for Isaac to sacrifice himself? Since he had already secured the bridge, couldn't he have just progeammed the EMP burst to effect every area of the ship except the bridge? There must be a way to seal the bridge off.

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* Is it just me or is Isaac's EMP tactic to take out the Kaylon a bit too convenient? Leaving aside the issue of how the ship even has this ability or why it would have it, wouldn't a ship-wide EMP cause massive damage to the ship itself? Why would it only shut down the Kaylons while leaving all the ship systems completely intact? Also, was it really necessary for Isaac to sacrifice himself? Since he had already secured the bridge, couldn't he have just progeammed programmed the EMP burst to effect affect every area of the ship except the bridge? There must be a way to seal the bridge off.



*** There wouldn’t be ionizing radiation, but there are [=EMPs=] associated with, for instance, solar activity, that project great distances through space and would play hell with electrical systems on earth if it weren’t for the magnetosphere.
*** But that's different than projecting an EMP from one ship to another one. And you also have to factor in the enemy ships's shields. Now don't get me wrong, maybe they could make some sort of EMP weapon like that, but the point you can't just assume they have the ability just because Isaac was able to cause an EMP inside one ship. Making an EMP inside a ship is completely different from projecting it from one ship to another.

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*** There wouldn’t be ionizing radiation, but there are [=EMPs=] associated with, for instance, solar activity, that project great distances through space and would play hell with electrical systems on earth Earth if it weren’t for the magnetosphere.
*** But that's different than projecting an EMP from one ship to another one. And you also have to factor in the enemy ships's shields. Now don't get me wrong, maybe they could make some sort of EMP weapon like that, but the point is you can't just assume they have the ability just because Isaac was able to cause an EMP inside one ship. Making an EMP inside a ship is completely different from projecting it from one ship to another.



** When Mercer tries to use a codephrase, the Kaylons destroy to other ship, but then space a single redshirt, rather than opening the shuttle bay as threatened.

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** When Mercer tries to use a codephrase, the Kaylons destroy to the other ship, but then space a single redshirt, rather than opening the shuttle bay as threatened.



** The crew steal a shuttle, which is beyond egregious, but there’s no punishment at all. You’d think the easy response is to just turn off the force field and bye-bye crew. Instead, more guards are sent in but do nothing. Bortus is standing there holding the gun he used to take out two Kaylons; at the very least that should have been instant death sentence.
** When Ty is captured (after which they apparently just left Yaphit sitting there?), Mercer isn’t brought in at all, meaning the whole punishment thing has been pretty much abandoned. Instead, Isaac’s “sympathy” is tested. But if there were any doubts at all, he should have been shut down immediately; it’s not like he was actually needed for anything at that point, and was clearly becoming a liability. Even worse, ordering him to kill Ty would have a very high likelihood of pushing him over the edge to rebellion. Which it did. NiceJobFixingItVillain

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** The crew steal a shuttle, which is beyond egregious, but there’s no punishment at all. You’d think the easy response is to just turn off the force field and bye-bye crew. Instead, more guards are sent in but do nothing. Bortus is standing there holding the gun he used to take out two Kaylons; at the very least least, that should have been an instant death sentence.
** When Ty is captured (after which they apparently just left Yaphit sitting there?), Mercer isn’t brought in at all, meaning the whole punishment thing has been pretty much abandoned. Instead, Isaac’s “sympathy” is tested. But if there were any doubts at all, he should have been shut down immediately; it’s not like he was actually needed for anything at that point, and was clearly becoming a liability. Even worse, ordering him to kill Ty would have a very high likelihood of pushing him over the edge to rebellion. Which it did. NiceJobFixingItVillainNiceJobFixingItVillain!



*** Yeah for some reason Kaylon Prime was suffering from a severe case of BondVillainStupidity during that episode. As much as I liked it, it's a shame the writers simply gave the Kaylon an intelligence nerf rather then have the crew come up with a way to retake that ship that didn't make the Kaylon look so dumb.

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*** Yeah Yeah, for some reason Kaylon Prime was suffering from a severe case of BondVillainStupidity during that episode. As much as I liked it, it's a shame the writers simply gave the Kaylon an intelligence nerf rather then have the crew come up with a way to retake that ship that didn't make the Kaylon look so dumb.



* It’s an exploratory vessel, meaning unknown dangers are an anticipated possibility. It would one thing to bring your family when you’re just doing the regular supply run to Deneb IV, but this is kinda like a cop taking the kids along on patrol. “We’ll go for lunch right after Mommy busts these armed drug-dealers.”

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* It’s an exploratory vessel, meaning unknown dangers are an anticipated possibility. It would be one thing to bring your family when you’re just doing the regular supply run to Deneb IV, but this is kinda like a cop taking the kids along on patrol. “We’ll go for lunch right after Mommy busts these armed drug-dealers.”



** It's probably just a shout out to ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''. People have been asking why there are kids on the Enterprise ever since that show was on. As for the reason, well it's probably due to the amount of time the crew spends away from their home planets. Starships aren't like the ocean navy we have now. They don't just go out for 6-9 months or so and then come back home. They are away from the respective planets of their crewmen for years at a time. So unless they expect their crewman to just willfully abandon their immediate family members (not very realistic expectations), the only way to prevent that is to allow the family members to be on the ship. I'm sure before bringing their spouses and kids onboard, the crew probably have to sign about a million forms accepting the Union is not liable for any horrific fate that might befall them, such as getting sucked into a black hole or getting shot to pieces by a Krill boarding party.

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** It's probably just a shout out to ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''. People have been asking why there are kids on the Enterprise ever since that show was on. As for the reason, well well, it's probably due to the amount of time the crew spends away from their home planets. Starships aren't like the ocean navy we have now. They don't just go out for 6-9 months or so and then come back home. They are away from the respective planets of their crewmen for years at a time. So unless they expect their crewman crewmen to just willfully abandon their immediate family members (not very realistic expectations), the only way to prevent that is to allow the family members to be on the ship. I'm sure before bringing their spouses and kids onboard, the crew probably have to sign about a million forms accepting the Union is not liable for any horrific fate that might befall them, such as getting sucked into a black hole or getting shot to pieces by a Krill boarding party.



*** Well I wouldn't go that far. Remember back in the early episodes of season 1, we saw that Mercer does have an apartment on earth.

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*** Well I wouldn't go that far. Remember back in the early episodes of season 1, we saw that Mercer does have an apartment on earth.Earth.



*** Yeah that’s my point. I was responding to the TNG example, saying the Enterprise probably evacuated civilians before engaging the Borg (I don’t recall seeing any children in “Best of Both Worlds,” but I could be mistaken). Anyway, sorry that wasn’t clear.
*** Sorry my mistake. We never see civilians being evacuated at any time before a dangerous mission in Star Trek. In ''Film/StarTrekGenerations'', they don't evacuate the civilians before going into battle with the Klingons. In that movie, we see the civilians evacuating when the ship is about to crash. The way I see it, military ships like the Orville and Enterprise (I know the Federation likes to claim it's not military, but let's face it, it is) can't be bothered to suck up extra time and resources by going out of the way to drop off civilians every time they might face trouble. That's just too much extra inconvenience and too much of a waste to be constantly picking them up and dropping them off when they are on call for handling dangerous situations at a moment's notice. I figure they just tell their crew ''"bring your family with you at your own risk, if they get killed it's on you"''. What I do wonder about though is how they can afford all the extra space for the civilians. I get that the senior command staff get large rooms that could handle extra people. But what about the rank-and-file crewmen? Surely the lowest guys in the chain of command wouldn't get that much space afforded to them, would they? It's why I wish some day they would make a Star Trek series where at least one of the main characters is low-level deckhand instead of making them all the senior leadership.
*** That would be cool. I still think we don’t see them evacuating civilians not because there’s no time to do it, but because there’s limited time in the episode and that would be boring to show compared to the action scenes. And by this point this has turned into discussion, so I’m going to stop.
*** ''In theory'' (and this is a complex issue, that’s why is a very '''big''' ''in theory'') both Federation and Union vessels are not military ships, they are for exploratory and scientific purposes. The Federation at least does have some military vessels, for example the Defiant, also there’s a reason why the Voyager has no children other than Naomi Wildman (who was born there due to a pregnant crewmember) as the Voyager was in a specific military mission (chasing Maquis) when it got lost. Harry Kim mentions in a future episode (I think it was the finale) that he embarked in a mission in deep space that will take him years before he can come back as did once Riker’s clon to justify him be PutOnABus (he says it take him six months just to get there), now in this two latest examples there’s no indication those ships have no children but is this tropers’ impression that they don’t. We do know however that the Defiant and the Voyager don’t, and in the case of the Defiant they nor even have accommodations for potential children or families (they outright say so). \\
What does this means? Well at least in the case of the Federation they do have specific ships that they assign military or intelligence missions that are too dangerous and/or too far away from Federation space to carry children or families in general. People assign to these missions are generally aware of this and are generally lone wolves with no family (i.e. the old Harry, Clon!Riker), in other cases like Voyager they maybe will be back to normal once the mission ends and in other like the Defiant it doesn’t have a permanent crew. \\
Thus, the Enterprise and most Galaxy-type ships have a scientific, diplomatic and exploratory function. The crewmembers in there some are military but it has a wide variety and due to their missions has a lot of scientists, astronomers, anthropologist, archeologist, and so on therefore is logic to assume most of this non-military professionals would want to have their families on board or would meet, fall in love, marry and have children. They even have pets (Data mentions there are several cats on the Enterprise aside from his). This is logical from this perspective after all, they are not into military, they are scientists and other professionals. This would cause the need for teachers, medical specialists (pediatricians for example), etc. Military personal assign to ships like the Enterprise are probably aware of this dynamic and probably they choose this kind of ship precisely for this reasons or at least are ok with it, and take advantage of the more family-friendly environment. I mean, if you’re a hardcore loner who wants to have constant adrenaline rush, living by the day fighting the Borg or the Dominion, or making intelligence reports for what those pesky Cardassians are doing, you probably feel more comfortable in one of the deep space mission ships I mentioned before. If you like to play jazz, play poker and take part in theater presentations like Will Riker you probably prefer a non-military ship like the Enterpirse. \\
However, the Enterprise is still A SPACE SHIP, and space is full of dangers. Whether natural phenomena, unknown alien threats, hostile civilizations or attacks from enemy races, all these can happen. You could argue the same; “How can they bring children in a ship that can be swallow by a black hole or destroyed by a pulsar”. Heck, half the time in TNG the danger didn’t come from hostile enemies but from the space phenomenon of the week. Whether this is wise or not, that’s another matter, you can ask the same about almost any sci-fi setting including those with generational ships, but the Enterprise is supposed to be in space for decades! Which is pretty difficult to imagine someone would volunteer to be there if has to resign to any kind of family bond. And yes, the Enterprise does take on military missions once in a while, and whether it evacuates its civilians or not is a matter of debate (in fact it is true, it’s never shown but in some episodes about specific military or intelligence missions we normally don’t see any children nor it’s ever mentioned they are in danger, it could be that when the Central Command says: “Hey Picard, we have a report about Romulan militias invading Federation space, go investigate” they do evacuate the children beforehand. Most cases where children are shown in danger is when they are attacked by surprise). \\
Going back to The Orville, which basically follows Star Trek logic to the letter, this is more or less the same logic. We don’t know if the Union has military-specific ships like the Defiant, but the ships like the Orville are supposed to be like the Enterprise, diplomatic, exploratory and scientific vessels that sometimes may front military missions mostly in emergency situations (like having your home planet invaded by an army of alien robots) but is not their primordial function, and if they engage in military problems is mostly because of some unexpected condition. An example of this is the visit to the Kaylon world itself. Remember that to that point they thought the Kaylon were deliberating to became members of the Union and they thought they were in a diplomatic and peaceful visit with a friendly civilization. Not like they were send to face the Krill.
*** When I say the Orville and the Enterprise are military ships, I don't mean they are warships. I mean they are in a military organization. Not everything military-related is meant for combat. A supply ship isn't meant for combat, but the military has supply ships. A Chinook helicopter isn't meant for combat, but the military has plenty of them. As much as the federation pretends it isn't military, they clearly are. They have a formal rank structure, they have a military system for discipline and promotions. The Union in this series is pretty much the same, though thankfully they haven't pretended to be anything else.
*** Alright then the issue is not so much as if the Orville and the Enterprise are military ships, as they are by definition, is if they are combatant ships, this in fact happens in RealLife as a lot of military bases house families (including children) of military personnel (despite the fact such bases can be targets of attacks) and that some children constantly travel across the world with their military parents. Check Wiki/TheOtherWiki's article on [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_brat_(U.S._subculture) Military brat]] (and no, the "brat" part is not pejorative), it's basically the exact situation we see in the Orville and the Enterprise.

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*** Yeah Yeah, that’s my point. I was responding to the TNG example, saying the Enterprise probably evacuated civilians before engaging the Borg (I don’t recall seeing any children in “Best of Both Worlds,” but I could be mistaken). Anyway, sorry that wasn’t clear.
*** Sorry Sorry, my mistake. We never see civilians being evacuated at any time before a dangerous mission in Star Trek. In ''Film/StarTrekGenerations'', they don't evacuate the civilians before going into battle with the Klingons. In that movie, we see the civilians evacuating when the ship is about to crash. The way I see it, military ships like the Orville and Enterprise (I know the Federation likes to claim it's not military, but let's face it, it is) can't be bothered to suck up extra time and resources by going out of the way to drop off civilians every time they might face trouble. That's just too much extra inconvenience and too much of a waste to be constantly picking them up and dropping them off when they are on call for handling dangerous situations at a moment's notice. I figure they just tell their crew ''"bring your family with you at your own risk, if they get killed it's on you"''. What I do wonder about though about, though, is how they can afford all the extra space for the civilians. I get that the senior command staff get large rooms that could handle extra people. But what about the rank-and-file crewmen? Surely the lowest guys in the chain of command wouldn't get that much space afforded to them, would they? It's why I wish some day they would make a Star Trek series where at least one of the main characters is a low-level deckhand instead of making them all the senior leadership.
*** That would be cool. I still think we don’t see them evacuating civilians not because there’s no time to do it, but because there’s limited time in the episode and that would be boring to show compared to the action scenes. And by this point this has turned into a discussion, so I’m going to stop.
*** ''In theory'' (and this is a complex issue, that’s why this is a very '''big''' ''in theory'') both Federation and Union vessels are not military ships, they are for exploratory and scientific purposes. The Federation at least does have some military vessels, for example the Defiant, also there’s a reason why the Voyager has no children other than Naomi Wildman (who was born there due to a pregnant crewmember) as the Voyager was in on a specific military mission (chasing Maquis) when it got lost. Harry Kim mentions in a future episode (I think it was the finale) that he embarked in on a mission in deep space that will take him years before he can come back back, as did once Riker’s clon clone once to justify him be being PutOnABus (he says it take takes him six months just to get there), now in this these two latest examples there’s no indication those ships have no children but is it’s this tropers’ troper’s impression that they don’t. We do know however that the Defiant and the Voyager don’t, and in the case of the Defiant they nor don't even have accommodations for potential children or families (they outright say so). \\
What does this means? Well mean? Well, at least in the case of the Federation Federation, they do have specific ships that they assign military or intelligence missions that are too dangerous and/or too far away from Federation space to carry children or families in general. People assign assigned to these missions are generally aware of this and are generally lone wolves with no family (i.e. the old Harry, Clon!Riker), Clone!Riker), in other cases like Voyager they maybe will be back to normal once the mission ends ends, and in other others like the Defiant it doesn’t have a permanent crew. \\
Thus, the Enterprise and most Galaxy-type ships have a scientific, diplomatic and exploratory function. The crewmembers in there there, some are military military, but it has a wide variety variety, and due to their missions has a lot of scientists, astronomers, anthropologist, archeologist, anthropologists, archeologists, and so on on, therefore is logic it's logical to assume most of this these non-military professionals would want to have their families on board board, or would meet, fall in love, marry and have children. They even have pets (Data mentions there are several cats on the Enterprise aside from his). This is logical from this perspective after all, they are not into in the military, they are scientists and other professionals. This would cause create the need for teachers, medical specialists (pediatricians for example), etc. Military personal assign personnel assigned to ships like the Enterprise are probably aware of this dynamic and probably they choose this kind of ship precisely for this reasons reason or at least are ok okay with it, and take advantage of the more family-friendly environment. I mean, if you’re a hardcore loner who wants to have a constant adrenaline rush, living by the day fighting the Borg or the Dominion, or making intelligence reports for what those pesky Cardassians are doing, you probably feel more comfortable in one of the deep space mission ships I mentioned before. If you like to play jazz, play poker and take part in theater presentations like Will Riker Riker, you probably prefer a non-military ship like the Enterpirse.Enterprise. \\
However, the Enterprise is still A SPACE SHIP, and space is full of dangers. Whether natural phenomena, unknown alien threats, hostile civilizations or attacks from enemy races, all these can happen. You could argue the same; “How can they bring children in a ship that can be swallow swallowed by a black hole or destroyed by a pulsar”. Heck, half the time in TNG the danger didn’t come from hostile enemies but from the space phenomenon of the week. Whether this is wise or not, that’s another matter, you can ask the same about almost any sci-fi setting including those with generational ships, but the Enterprise is supposed to be in space for decades! Which is pretty difficult to imagine someone would volunteer to be there if has they have to resign to from any kind of family bond. And yes, the Enterprise does take on military missions once in a while, and whether it evacuates its civilians or not is a matter of debate (in debate. (In fact it is true, it’s never shown but in some episodes about specific military or intelligence missions we normally don’t see any children nor it’s is it ever mentioned they are in danger, it could be that when the Central Command says: “Hey Picard, we have a report about Romulan militias invading Federation space, go investigate” they do evacuate the children beforehand. Most cases where children are shown in danger is when they are attacked by surprise). \\
Going back to The Orville, which basically follows Star Trek logic to the letter, this is more or less the same logic. We don’t know if the Union has military-specific ships like the Defiant, but the ships like the Orville are supposed to be like the Enterprise, diplomatic, exploratory and scientific vessels that sometimes may front military missions mostly in emergency situations (like having your home planet invaded by an army of alien robots) but is not their primordial primary function, and if they engage in military problems is it's mostly because of some unexpected condition. An example of this is the visit to the Kaylon world itself. Remember that to that point they thought the Kaylon were deliberating to became become members of the Union and they thought they were in on a diplomatic and peaceful visit with a friendly civilization. Not like they were send sent to face the Krill.
*** When I say the Orville and the Enterprise are military ships, I don't mean they are warships. I mean they are in a military organization. Not everything military-related is meant for combat. A supply ship isn't meant for combat, but the military has supply ships. A Chinook helicopter isn't meant for combat, but the military has plenty of them. As much as the federation Federation pretends it isn't military, they clearly are. They have a formal rank structure, they have a military system for discipline and promotions. The Union in this series is pretty much the same, though thankfully they haven't pretended to be anything else.
*** Alright then All right, then, the issue is not so much as if whether the Orville and the Enterprise are military ships, as they are by definition, is if but whether they are combatant ships, ships; this in fact happens in RealLife RealLife, as a lot of military bases house families (including children) of military personnel (despite the fact such bases can be targets of attacks) attacks), and that some children constantly travel across the world with their military parents. Check Wiki/TheOtherWiki's article on [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_brat_(U.S._subculture) Military brat]] (and no, the "brat" part is not pejorative), it's basically the exact situation we see in on the Orville and the Enterprise.



*** Maybe he ate the pickles, drank the juice and has the empty jar sittin in his quarters (no point in letting a good jar of pickles going to waste).

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*** Maybe he ate the pickles, drank the juice and has the empty jar sittin sitting in his quarters (no point in letting a good jar of pickles going to waste).



[[folder: So, do the Kaylon know that Isaac is active and on biologicals side?]]
The Road Not Taken episode says that all Kaylon are connectect, like Borgs in Star Trek. Do the Kaylon in the Prime timeline know Isaac is still active?
* Yeah knowing that the Kaylon have a hive mind brings up a lot of issues. Such as how did they not know when Isaac was turning against them? Shouldn't they have been able to know that immediately and stop him before he could take action?

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[[folder: So, do the Kaylon know that Isaac is active and on biologicals the biologicals' side?]]
The "The Road Not Taken episode Taken" says that all Kaylon are connectect, connected, like Borgs in Star Trek. Do the Kaylon in the Prime timeline know Isaac is still active?
* Yeah Yeah, knowing that the Kaylon have a hive mind brings up a lot of issues. Such as as, how did they not know when Isaac was turning against them? Shouldn't they have been able to know that immediately and stop him before he could take action?


*** It was not a matter of his word against his, or about covering up proof of the kiss. It was the accusation itself and what it would set off that was the problem. If the Mochlan authorities received an accusation from Klyden then they would have to investigate. Especially if it’s in regards to one of their top engineers. Borus would be dragged into it, and forced to reveal what he knew. Talla would have to choose between her duty to be honest in regards to an investigation or lie. Locar fear was the accusation itself, what it would lead to. Even if he managed to cover it up he would always be watched for any signs of deviance from the norm. Fear of exposure of one’s sexual identity, especially when considered taboo in one’s general society has led to fear, acts of rashness and sometimes suicide.

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*** It was not a matter of his word against his, or about covering up proof of the kiss. It was the accusation itself and what it would set off that was the problem. If the Mochlan Moclan authorities received an accusation from Klyden then they would have to investigate. Especially if it’s in regards to one of their top engineers. Borus Bortus would be dragged into it, and forced to reveal what he knew. Talla would have to choose between her duty to be honest in regards to an investigation or lie. Locar Locar's fear was the accusation itself, what it would lead to. Even if he managed to cover it up up, he would always be watched for any signs of deviance from the norm. Fear of exposure of one’s sexual identity, especially when considered taboo in one’s general society society, has led to fear, acts of rashness and sometimes suicide.



* So when the Orville is on the ground, anyone can leave at will without any sort of accountability system? They don't bother to post guards at the exit, or at least some sort of automated security system? That was be pretty absurd if there were only adults on the ship. But the fact that this is the case for a ship with children on it makes it even more ridiculous. You'd think they would they would have security measures in place specifically to prevent what we saw on ''Identity''; small children leaving the ship on potentially dangerous alien planets without adult supervision.

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* So when the Orville is on the ground, anyone can leave at will without any sort of accountability system? They don't bother to post guards at the exit, or at least some sort of automated security system? That was would be pretty absurd even if there were only adults on the ship. But the fact that this is the case for a ship with children on it makes it even more ridiculous. You'd think they would they would have security measures in place specifically to prevent what we saw on ''Identity''; "Identity"; small children leaving the ship on potentially dangerous alien planets without adult supervision.



* What I want to know is how was Isaac sending reports back to Kaylon if Kaylon is out of communication range.
** Kaylon techonology is more advance than Union's, therefore is likely their communication systems are much more advance too.

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* What I want to know is how was Isaac was sending reports back to Kaylon if Kaylon is out of communication range.
** Kaylon techonology technology is more advance advanced than the Union's, therefore it is likely their communication systems are much more advance advanced too.



** Isaac spent all these years sending them reports, there's no indication they need any further imput from him, is possible that a) There was some sort of communication between the Kaylon world and him maybe on the lines of "alright we had enough info you can shut down now" (in fact his eyes start to blink right before he shuts down like if he was receiving some sort of signal) or b) My program came to the conclusions that the reports I sent are enough information needed so I will shut down now. In any case is a clever strategy because its avoid the host civilization to be able to extract any secrets from Isaac.

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** Isaac spent all these years sending them reports, there's no indication they need any further imput from him, it is possible that a) There was some sort of communication between the Kaylon world and him him, maybe on the lines of "alright "all right, we had have enough info info, you can shut down now" (in fact his eyes start to blink right before he shuts down like if he was receiving some sort of signal) or b) My program came to the conclusions that the reports I sent are enough information needed information, so I will shut down now. In any case is it's a clever strategy because its avoid it avoids the host civilization to be being able to extract any secrets from Isaac.



*** Considering the lack of empathy the Kaylon have is likely that they didn't expected Isaac to be returned. In fact they said it themselves ("We recognized who you were seconds before our defense systems open fire"). They were clearly not expecting visits. They do re-activated Isaac once the Orville brought him probably, as other troper said, to distract them.

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*** Considering the lack of empathy the Kaylon have have, it is likely that they didn't expected expect Isaac to be returned. In fact they said it themselves ("We recognized who you were seconds before our defense systems open would have opened fire"). They were clearly not expecting visits. They do re-activated re-activate Isaac once the Orville brought him him, probably, as other another troper said, to distract them.


** It is a Moclan system, the guys who have a casual game of holding a handstabbing object, whose divorce proceedings involve someone stabbing another, and merely breaking up requires removing a tooth. Testing shields, and it is said to be final testing phase, by live firing in battlefield conditions is pretty much in keeping with their species' hat.
** This is done in Star Trek all the time (and the show has an almost pathological tendency to keep everything from Star Trek), lots and lots of episodes of Star Trek are about new technologies/weapons/navigation systems, etc tested in a incredibly risky way in a populated ship where you even have children on board. However, in their defense is likely that shooting at the Orville with minimal power and even without the upgraded shields is very safe, the ship is design to resist full power attacks from the Krill for example.

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** It is a Moclan system, the guys who have a casual game of holding a handstabbing object, whose divorce proceedings involve someone stabbing another, and merely breaking up requires removing a tooth. Testing shields, and it is shields (which are said to be in their final testing phase, phase) by live firing in battlefield conditions is pretty much in keeping with their species' hat.
** This is done in Star Trek all the time (and the show has an almost pathological tendency to keep everything from Star Trek), lots and lots of episodes of Star Trek are about new technologies/weapons/navigation systems, etc tested in a incredibly risky way in a populated ship where you even have children on board. However, in their defense it is likely that shooting at the Orville with minimal power and even without the upgraded shields is very safe, the ship is design designed to resist full power attacks from the Krill for example.

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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Bloody Patriots]]
(snark mode on) "No, we can't hand over Orrin to you. That's because he stole a shuttle and tried to bomb you. You surely noticed the big kaboom left of you, that's when his plan went south. Y'know, his secret weapon was his daughter. Only it wasn't his daughter (which you killed, you really should keep notes) but an alien Envall whose blood can nuke whole ships. Never heard of them? That would explain the lousy security in your prisoners camp. No, we can't hand over her either, because she blew up too from nosebleed. Not for swooning over me, it was a right hook from Talla. So all of your enemies are dead, take our word for it, would an Earthling lie? So can we now go over to the bloody pact? Yes? You're fine with it? Gooooood!" (That should subsume everything, and in case Leyna did not explode, they would have an even greater problem explaining. Would Ed then really hand her over to the Krill, although that would make a great present?)


** The key to Heveena's off-worlding efforts is that it's secret. She's in hiding while he's on Moclus because if the Moclan government found out about her and the operation, they'd have come down hard and forced all the females they scooped up in the process to undergo reassignment surgery.

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** The key to Heveena's off-worlding efforts is that it's secret. She's in hiding while he's she's on Moclus because if the Moclan government found out about her and the operation, they'd have come down hard and forced all the females they scooped up in the process to undergo reassignment surgery.


** The key to Heveena's off-worlding efforts is that it's secret. She's in hiding because if the Moclan government found out about her and the operation, they'd have come down hard and forced all the females they scooped up in the process to undergo reassignment surgery.

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** The key to Heveena's off-worlding efforts is that it's secret. She's in hiding while he's on Moclus because if the Moclan government found out about her and the operation, they'd have come down hard and forced all the females they scooped up in the process to undergo reassignment surgery.


** And furthermore, wouldn’t her sudden reveal have seriously jeopardized the operation? Surely she should have instead told Mercer, “There are people who can help Bortus.” Even though they probably would not have been able to accept such an offer under the circumstances, it still leaves her and the entire operation under much less risk.

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** * And furthermore, wouldn’t her sudden reveal have seriously jeopardized the operation? Surely she should have instead told Mercer, “There are people who can help Bortus.” Even though they probably would not have been able to accept such an offer under the circumstances, it still leaves her and the entire operation under much less risk.


* A year ago, Mercer tracked down Helvina living as a hermit in the middle of nowhere, and he convinced her to come forward and make a stand. Since then, she turns out to have been coordinating a massive off-worlding operation for years, so what was she doing hiding in the desert? And how did she get off Moclus at all once she came forward at the hearing, when there appears to be a mandatory policy of forced sex-change and life imprisonment for anyone like her? Because of her high regard as a poet, surely she would be an ideal candidate to be “made an example of.” And furthermore, wouldn’t her sudden reveal have seriously jeopardized the operation? Surely she should have instead told Mercer, “There are people who can help Bortus.” Even though they probably would not have been able to accept such an offer under the circumstances, it still leaves her and the entire operation under much less risk.

to:

* A year ago, Mercer tracked down Helvina living as a hermit in the middle of nowhere, and he convinced her to come forward and make a stand. Since then, she turns out to have been coordinating a massive off-worlding operation for years, so what was she doing hiding in the desert? desert?
** The key to Heveena's off-worlding efforts is that it's secret. She's in hiding because if the Moclan government found out about her and the operation, they'd have come down hard and forced all the females they scooped up in the process to undergo reassignment surgery.
*
And how did she get off Moclus at all once she came forward at the hearing, when there appears to be a mandatory policy of forced sex-change and life imprisonment for anyone like her? Because of her high regard as a poet, surely she would be an ideal candidate to be “made an example of.
** After she came out in public, she presumably used her underground network to flee as soon as possible. She revealed herself to be one of Moclus' greatest writers, someone who is regularly cited and quoted by the general public. The confusion and outcry resulting in Moclans discovering that Gandis Eldin isn't who they thought he was might have been enough to let her slip away as the government tried to figure out how to deal with her.
**
And furthermore, wouldn’t her sudden reveal have seriously jeopardized the operation? Surely she should have instead told Mercer, “There are people who can help Bortus.” Even though they probably would not have been able to accept such an offer under the circumstances, it still leaves her and the entire operation under much less risk.
** The trial in this episode is the first time Moclan parents tried to go against their government and the law requiring forced gender reassignment. It is already a highly public affair before Heveena became involved. If Bortus were to suddenly disappear with his baby, it would raise questions and begin drawing attention to the underground network.
** As the trial is a momentous occasion, Heveena probably believed that it was worth risking her safety and that of the operation to show the world that female Moclans are just as capable as males. Remember, at this point, Moclans still believe that female births are an uncommon event and that the fact that females are born quite regularly is being suppressed. The people would have automatically assumed that Heveena was the unique female birth of her generation and not that there are many females being born and that a large-scale smuggling operation is taking them off world.

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** Also, there are people who want to pleasure their ''partner'' (read any Daoist text on the matter). Wondering if Yaphit now falls for NotIfTheyEnjoyedItRationalization, as Claires screams still could be heard on Krill...

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** Because snoring isn't sleep apnea. If you're snoring, air is moving in and out of your windpipe - it's just vibrating the walls of the pipe on the way. Apnea is what happens when your windpipe collapses and air CANNOT move through it. Essentially it's only a problem when you stop snoring (and breathing) from a couple of times a minute to even every few seconds in severe apnea. An overwhelming majority of adult men, and a large number of adult women, snore - some quite loudly - without any danger at all. It's loud and annoying, but not harmful unless the snoring (and your breathing) routinely stops. Much like in the present day, sleep docs probably don't treat snoring medically unless it really is apnea or is causing the patient some other form of harm. Ed can be annoying when he's awake, so why should it be different when he's asleep (so long as he keeps breathing)?


*** It was not a matter of his word against his, covering up proof of the kiss. It was the accusation itself and what it would set off that was the problem. If the Mochlan authorities received an accusation from Klyden then they would have to investigate. Especially if it’s in regards to one of their top engineers. Borus would be dragged into it, and forced to reveal what he knew. Talla would have to choose between her duty to be honest in regards to an investigation or lie. Locar fear was the accusation itself, what it would lead to. Even if he managed to cover it up he would always be watched for any signs of deviance from the norm. Fear of exposure of one’s sexual identity, especially when considered taboo in one’s general society has led to fear, acts of rashness and sometimes suicide.

to:

*** It was not a matter of his word against his, or about covering up proof of the kiss. It was the accusation itself and what it would set off that was the problem. If the Mochlan authorities received an accusation from Klyden then they would have to investigate. Especially if it’s in regards to one of their top engineers. Borus would be dragged into it, and forced to reveal what he knew. Talla would have to choose between her duty to be honest in regards to an investigation or lie. Locar fear was the accusation itself, what it would lead to. Even if he managed to cover it up he would always be watched for any signs of deviance from the norm. Fear of exposure of one’s sexual identity, especially when considered taboo in one’s general society has led to fear, acts of rashness and sometimes suicide.

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