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** Honestly, this bugged me too, but for different reasons: it's not like Barry's treating Snart as a special case, as he's offered redemption to several other members of his Rogue's Gallery, and even to those who he hasn't, he still often empathises with what they're going through. The main thing that bugs me is that everyone seems to treat Snart as redeemable because he's stopped killing people after making that deal with Barry[[note]] before murdering his father, anyway [[/note]], while ignoring the fact that he casually murdered Deathbolt in [[IncrediblyLamePun cold blood]], because (and I quote) "He owed [Snart] money." I know Deathbolt wasn't a saint, but everyone just seems to have forgotten about this, including Snart himself. Frankly, they have no reason to trust him, as he's broken every single agreement he's made with Barry.
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** Honestly, this bugged me too, but for different reasons: it's not like Barry's treating Snart as a special case, as he's offered redemption to several other members of his Rogue's Gallery, and even to those who he hasn't, he still often empathises with what they're going through. The main thing that bugs me is that everyone seems to treat Snart as redeemable because he's stopped killing people after making that deal with Barry[[note]] before murdering his father, anyway [[/note]], while ignoring the fact that he casually murdered Deathbolt in [[IncrediblyLamePun [[{{Pun}} cold blood]], because (and I quote) "He owed [Snart] money." I know Deathbolt wasn't a saint, but everyone just seems to have forgotten about this, including Snart himself. Frankly, they have no reason to trust him, as he's broken every single agreement he's made with Barry.
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* Way back in season 1, Eobard Thawne travelled in time. It should have been a short trip: Go back, kill Barry, return to the new future, enjoy. And in Gorilla Warfare, we learn that he conveniently left another Reverse-Flash costume in another Reverse-Flash Ring that was conveniently found by Cisco when they needed Earth2-Wells to use it. How dumb is this ? Even if for some sort of reason (Fearing that he would need a new costume if the original is torn up) he created a new Reverse-Flash costume, there is not reason he left it behind when returning to its timeline. The confession video showed he is perfectly aware that Barry may decide to keep the timeline as it is, so there is no reason he left something as precious as a Ring to be reverse-engineering by Cisco or someone else.
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* Way back in season 1, Eobard Thawne travelled in time. It should have been a short trip: Go back, kill Barry, return to the new future, enjoy. And in Gorilla Warfare, we learn that he conveniently left another Reverse-Flash costume in another Reverse-Flash Ring that was conveniently found by Cisco when they needed Earth2-Wells Earth 2-Wells to use it. How dumb is this ? Even if for some sort of reason (Fearing that he would need a new costume if the original is torn up) he created a new Reverse-Flash costume, there is not reason he left it behind when returning to its timeline. The confession video showed he is perfectly aware that Barry may decide to keep the timeline as it is, so there is no reason he left something as precious as a Ring to be reverse-engineering by Cisco or someone else.
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** Is this really all that hard to figure out? Yes, Barry could have beaten Zoom, but not before Zoom killed many of his friends and other innocent people in the process. A speedster, even a slower one than the hero is a legitimate threat to take seriously and Barry is not the type of person to gamble with peoples lives if he can avoid it.
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** Because Patty is extremely hot and worth a chance.
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** How is the fact that an AlternateUniverse is different yet similar to another, a headscratcher exactly? To borrow a phrase from VideoGame/BioShockInfinite; there are constants and variables. Considering the very nature of the multiverse, not only is it very possible for there to be a variation of Earth with the type of divergence yet similarities to Earth-1, there '''must''' be a version that's exactly like that. As for why Team Flash assumes that the doppelgängers of Earth-2 have similar names, histories, and appearances to their Earth-1 counterparts? Chalk that up to Occam's Razor mixed with a bit of confirmation bias: Besides Zoom, Harry and Jay, every metahuman from Earth-2 that they've met had a counterpart with the same name as their Earth-1 counterpart, so logically, if you're searching for an Earth-1 double of someone from Earth-2, (ie, Jay Garrick), you try to find someone with the same name. If that fails, well, back to the drawing board.
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** How is the fact that an AlternateUniverse is different yet similar to another, a headscratcher exactly? To borrow a phrase from VideoGame/BioShockInfinite; there are constants and variables. Considering the very nature of the multiverse, not only is it very possible for there to be a variation of Earth with the type of divergence yet similarities to Earth-1, there '''must''' be a version that's exactly like that. As for why Team Flash assumes that the doppelgängers of Earth-2 have similar names, histories, and appearances to their Earth-1 counterparts? Chalk that up to Occam's Razor mixed with a bit of confirmation bias: Besides Zoom, Harry and Jay, every metahuman from Earth-2 that they've met had a counterpart with the same name as their Earth-1 counterpart, so logically, if you're searching for an Earth-1 double of someone from Earth-2, (ie, Jay Garrick), you try to find someone with the same name. If that fails, well, back to the drawing board.
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New entries on the bottom. '''Spoilers''', naturally.
[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: Al Rothstein, victim of the Particle Accelerator?]]
* Back in "Power Outage", Thawne named Al Rothstein as a victim of the Particle Accelerator, but "The Man Who Saved Central City" establishes that this is not possible, as the Al Rothstein of Barry's earth was in Hawaii at the time. What the hell was Thawne talking about? It doesn't seem like this is something he'd bother to lie about. Did he sincerely believe Rothstein had been among the victims?
** Central City's a big town. It's possible there's more than one person named Al Rothstein.
** It's also possible (though unlikely) that Rothstein was injured but not killed by the explosion. More plausibly, he was a victim originally, but the effect's of the Season 1 Finale's TimeTravel shenanigans changed time very slightly so that he's not [[TimeTravelTenseTrouble anymore]].
** And it's also possible, and even probable, that Thawne was just being a jackass and instead of "honoring the dead", he was remembering and listing civilian identities of superheroes based around Central City in his original timeline.
** He wasn't in Central City at all during the accelerator explosion, so he couldn't have been injured by it at all. The best explanation is the above: That Thawne was remembering him as having been affected by the explosion in the original timeline.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Henry Allen not sticking around]]
* Barry finally proven his father's innocence and got him out of jail the legal way. Being reunited with his own father as a free man is what motivated Barry to become the man he was today. From being a forensic scientist to becoming the Flash, all that Barry has done was to find out who murdered his mother and get justice for his father. Now that both are resolved, what was the main reason Henry didn't feel like staying with his son in Central City?
** This might cross the line into WMG territory, but it's established that the Iron Heights prisoners know Henry frequently talks to the cops. He may have made enemies whose reach extends into Central City itself.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The newspaper and Westallen's future relationship]]
* Barry found out that him and Iris would be married in the future shortly before finding out that Eddie wanted to propose to Iris. Why, then, did Barry encourage Joe to give Eddie his blessing to marry Iris?
** It's probably as simple as him not trusting the paper to be accurate.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Barry and Iris in season 2 premiere]]
* Barry and Iris aren't together by the season 2 premiere, even though, with Eddie now gone, it's almost certain that they'll one day be married. They both have feelings for each other, and they both know about the newspaper, so have they both just been awkwardly ignoring the elephant in the room for the past 6 months?
** At this point nothing is truly certain. Time travel in Flash is different from most established cannons. Eddie committing suicide does retroactively erase Eobard Thawn. But Eobard Thawn being erased didn't retroactively erase him creating the particle accelerator or any of the results of that world changing event. Given that they have little reason to trust it. Plus Barry and most of the cast are smart enough to put together that that Thawn came from a future where Nora Allen wasn't killed and Barry has already changed history once as of S1. S2 starts by introducing the Multiverse so all bets are off.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Changing byline]]
* Early the series, the newspaper's text was different and said "Evan Gibson" on the by line. Did the future change slightly throughout season 1 as a result of things Barry did?
** They didn't change slightly, they changed drastically. We see just the change between Barry and Iris over the course of a single day of mostly minor changes. A full year of Barry Allen happening six years prior to when he should have must have had tons of differences. Makes you wonder how Team Arrow escaped in the original timeline...
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Love Interests]]
* Now that Barry knows that him and Iris will one day be married, I don't see why he would even bother dating, let alone letting himself fall for Patty. I guess this one currently remains to be seen though.
** He doesn't actually know this. He knows that there is a world where he and Iris marry but it may not be this one.
** He also knows that the future can be changed, as Eddie's sacrifice demonstrated, he would have done had his future self not stopped his present self from interfering with his mother's murder, and Eobard Thrawne telling Barry he arranged for Barry to get his powers six years before he should have (and as the audience knows from the changing story when Barry was depowered). So Barry--and Iris, now that she's in on the information--are aware that the future isn't fixed. The newspaper byline shows a ''possible'' future, not a certain one.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Discussing Barry's secret identity while anyone can hear]]
* In the beginning of [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E1TheManWhoSavedCentralCity "The Man Who Saved Central City"]], Joe, Iris and Cisco openly discuss the fact that Barry is the Flash ''while standing in the middle of a crowded police station!'' Seriously? Okay, the people around them looked kinda busy, but what if someone had stopped to listen to what they're talking about?
** That was kind of a problem last season, but that episode really highlighted it. Might be stupid if they keep it up.
** Of course, Iris and Barry have some VERY Flash-related conversations [[spoiler: while he's in Iron Heights. Maybe that's how the warden learned his secret?]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why do they give up on Ronnie so easily?]]
* Martin and Ronnie go into the swirly thing, separate as planned to break it up, and only Martin comes out of the swirly thing. Everyone instantly concludes he's dead and asks no questions and never tries to check or confirm or ''anything'' despite it being that ambiguous.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did Eobard Thawne predict his death?]]
* Why did Eobard think that he was dead when he made that recording for Barry? If things had gone according to plan Eobard would have gone back to the future and been just as ''gone'' as he is now. We don't see anything that suggests he had the means nor desire to kill Barry so long as he got to return to the future.
** Eobard is many things, but not stupid. And for all of his hatred of Barry, he still considers him something of a WorthyOpponent after the last 15 years. Eobard definitely considered the option that his plan could fail and he could die. He didn't expect it, nor did he plan for that to be the case, but he knew that was a distinct possibility. So he made that recording.
** That's not the question at hand. The recording was given to Barry because Eobard/Wells is dead. There is no body because he was erased. So he's dead because Team Flash told the police or whatever. That's what actually happened. His plan however was to return to the future. In which case he would be gone and Team Flash would be no more or less likely to tell the authorities that he died. He would still be out of the picture however. So why didn't he make a recording that said: "Well I got what I wanted I'm back in the future or maybe you got lucky and somehow killed me. I very much doubt that." That's the question, his plan involved him being unable to deliver this message personally ''either way'' yet he assumed he was dead. Why?
** If Wells had succeeded in going back to the future, why would Team Flash tell anyone he had died? Since they don't have a body, trying to convince people of his death would be both very difficult and very suspicious; better to just say he's gone missing, and they don't know why or where. I assume the only reason they ''did'' tell people about his death is because of the black hole; if anyone asks how he died or where his body is, they can just tell people he got sucked into the event horizon. Besides, Wells' plan was to return to the future ''and'' let Barry go back in time to save his mother; if Barry had gone through with his part of the plan, the timeline would have changed, Barry's father would never have been arrested, and Wells's recording never would've been made.
** Wells might have just said that he was dead on the off chance that someone not involved with Team Flash watched the video.
** The black hole is a convenient reason to declare him dead. Wells' recording may very well have still been made since Time Travel in Flash seems to do exactly what it wants because it wants. The death of Wells didn't retroactively undo the year of the Flash like it should have. Though the fact that the recording would have been worthless had that happened may come into play.
** Considering that Wells succeeding in going back to the future would have left similar circumstances to what happened after he was erased from existence, I assumed that he intended to kill Team Flash shortly before leaving; after all, why take chances? Hence, if Barry's seeing the video, he's still alive, which means Wells didn't win.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why isn't the real Wells isn't, and the timeline restored?]]
* Eddie kills himself to prevent Thawne from being born, implying that Thawne couldn't then replace Wells, kill Barry's mother, move the time of the accelerator accident forward, or land Barry's father in jail, because Thawne never existed. The real Wells would still be in charge of STAR Labs, and Barry would not be the Flash, yet. Of course, if he did not remember all the events of season 1, Eddie has no reason to kill himself (unless Cisco explained it to him, perhaps). The rules of series do imply that you can change the timeline, and change everything associated with that change. But, they never imply that Eddie could cause Thawne to have never been born, without retroactively changing everything that Thawne did. Did the singularity suck plot holes into it?
** Time travel seems to work a weird way in this universe. If you want to change the past you have to travel back in time. Eddie killed himself in the present. The present made a 'checkup' and saw Eobard isn't supposed to exist in the future and erased it. But all Eobard did in the past stayed and all memories of it stayed. To prevent Eobard from killing Barry's mother and the real Wells, Eddie should have traveled 15 years back, BEFORE Barry's mother died and then killed himself. In a way it's a logical way to treat time travel since it prevents the paradoxes you mentioned.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:No mention of Deathbolt]]
* In 'The Man Who Saved Central City', when investigating Atom Smasher's identity, they pull up the records on Al Rothstein, and mention that he was in Hawaii on the night of the particle accelerator explosion, as if that rules out the possibility of him being a metahuman (aside from being, you know, dead). But then more importantly, in the next episode, when Joe is interrogating the Earth-1 version of Eddie Slick/(not-)Sand Demon, thinking that he is a metahuman. Joe finds out that Eddie wasn't in Central City on the night of the explosion either, and Barry says that Eddie must be lying. But why have they forgotten about Jake Simmons/Deathbolt, who proved that even people who were not in Central City that night could become metahumans? As far as I know, they never determined the source of Deathbolt's abilities, so it seems very premature to continue using the suspect's location on the night of the explosion as a litmus test for whether or not they can be a metahuman. Yes, it is true of the broad majority of metahumans, but they never know when another Deathbolt-like character could show up.
** Metahumans are still very rare, they may think Deadbolt was a freak isolated accident since so far on Earth-1 all other metahumans encountered can be linked to the particule accelerator accident.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Snart's broadcast]]
* Who is stopping Captain Cold's broadcast for Barry's ID?
** For now, it is a combination of being incarcerated in Iron Heights Prison [[spoiler: (and perhaps gratitude of saving Lisa from the thermite bomb implanted in her neck)]]. Season 2 Episode 3 could easily foreshadow Snart's path to heroics as seen in Series/LegendsOfTomorrow.
** But how is he doing it? S1EP16 ''Rogue Time'' has Barry threaten to zoom Snart off to his personal prison which would prevent him from telling people his ID. Snart then counters that if Barry did that Snart would be incapable of preventing his message from uploading. [[spoiler: With him in Iron Heights it seems improbable that he can get to a computer regularly.]] All the evidence still points to the fact that he didn't tell his sister or his partner.
** No, the threat was "If you give up my secret identity or kill people, there will be nothing stopping me from ending our game by dumping you in prison." Barry doesn't care overmuch about his secret identity.
** Incorrect. The exact exchange is here:[[http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=17487]]
--->'''Snart''': Can't really stop me now that I know who you are.\\
'''Barry''': I could speed you to my own private prison where you'll never see the light of day. \\
'''Snart''': You could, but then I won't be around to stop my own private uplink that'll broadcast your identity to the world.
** Two options: either Snart was bluffing about the private uplink when Barry confronted him about it (Doubtful) or for whatever reason, Snart disabled the uplink at some point between ''Rogue Time'' and ''Family of Rogues''. The latter seems more likely, judging by the fact that Snart is in prison and not threatening the use of the uplink to release Barry's identity to the world.
** Considering the way Snart thinks, and knowing Barry was actively trying to save his sister's life, it wouldn't be out of the question for him to have remotely disabled the upload just before the attempted heist.
** It's also possible that Snart informed Barry and the others where to find and disable the uplink shortly before getting arrested.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does Jay Garrick's helmet stay on?]]
* It doesn't appear to have straps or anything, so how does Jay's helmet stay on his head while he's running in superspeed?
** It's basically a UsefulNotes/WW1 helmet with wings welded on, so the straps grab the topmost part of the forehead and then around the base of the skull. you can see the backside straps when Jay is being knocked over by Sand Demon's bomb.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Sand Demon is not made of sand, or is he?]]
* In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E2FlashOfTwoWorlds "Flash of Two Worlds"]], Jay Garrick explains that Sand Demon's body isn't actually sand, his cells have just mutated to become hard and strong. But later on Barry defeats him with a lightning, because a lightning can turn sand into glass. However, a lightning wouldn't do that to human cells, even mutated ones, because they don't have the right chemical components. So is Sand Demon made of sand or not?
** Presumably his cells are ''technically'' human, but whatever makes him a metahuman causes them to function essentially the same as sand.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Iris is taking it well]]
* For someone whose boyfriend died six months ago, Iris seems to be handling it really well. A bit too well. Considering that the two were dating for about a year, you would think she'd be more affected than she seems. Barry seemed more affected than her. At least with Caitlin she was rather visibly affected losing Ronnie again.
** People react to grief differently. Barry is the type of person to angst over everyone he couldn't save. For Caitlin, it's also understandable to be upset after losing the one you love ''twice.'' Iris, on the other hand, seems to have been burying herself in her work so she doesn't have to think about it. It's also worth mentioning that every time Eddie's death is brought up, Iris seems to be holding back tears, so she isn't quite over it.
** People expressing excessive grief for over six months are possibly suffering depression or Prolonged Grief Disorder. [[RealityIsUnrealistic Getting over a death within a few months is entirely normal]].
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did something happen with Jason Rusch?]]
* Meta-headscratcher, but what happened with Jason Rusch? Not that Jax isn't an ideal partner for Stein, but why create a CompositeCharacter when they had one of the actual members of the Firestorm matrix from the comics? Was it just so they could have the whole Ronnie-Stein-Jason vibe even after Ronnie was gone? Or could they not get the actor again?
** In the Arrowverse, Ronnie was a highly competent and knowledgeable engineer and Jason Rusch is also a scientist. In the comics, part of the characterization of Firestorm was the combination of the older scientifically literate Martin Stein with the much younger athletic jock and okay but not exceptional student Ronnie Raymond. Using Jax allows that dynamic to be recreated.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How did Barry end up living with the Wests?]]
* Barry came to live with the Wests after his mother died and his father was sent to Iron Heights. Were there no living relatives of his, no grandparents, aunties, uncles or adult cousins he could've lived with? It just seems strange to me that the first person he gets sent to is someone to whom he isn't even related. It also kind of feels like just another way to delay Barry and Iris getting together, by making their relationship awkward because, to Iris (at least initially), they're LikeBrotherAndSister, but to Barry, they're NotBloodSiblings. This also never happened in the comics (NotThatTheresAnythingWrongWithThat).
** His parents specified that they wanted him living with the Wests? That's normally how it works in real life.
** Barry might indeed not have had any other relatives that could take him in. It's not unheard of. In which case after his dad went to prison he would have been given over to Central City child services who would be tasked with placing him in a foster home ASAP. Detective West likely volunteered right away to foster young Barry and the courts were all too happy to let him do so. A police detective with such a sterling record, plus previous experience as a parent, would be an ideal placement for an effectively orphaned young boy.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did Eddie [[spoiler: have to kill himself?]]]]
* Let's say you find out your descendant is a murderous sociopath. Couldn't Eddie erase Thawne from existence by NOT having children, or making sure that he and his other relatives raise their kids to be good people? Also, why is it a shock to Eddie that Eobard has the same last name as him? It's not far-fetched for two people to share the same last name in the same city.
** Thawne is not a common last name (or at least that way of spelling it isn't) for Americans to have. [[http://howmanyofme.com [=HowManyOfMe=].com]] says that less than 119 US citizens had that last name according to data from the 2000 census. Eddie therefore has reason to find it strange that someone he doesn't know has the name, because if so few people do, it's entirely believable that all of them living in the US are relatives of Eddie. Also, Eddie could've not had children, but he needed to erase Eobard from existence straight away, and killing himself was really the only thing he could think of on the spot that wouldn't take years to do and to thus prevent Eobard's existence. What baffles me, however, was that he could've married Iris on the spot to achieve the same outcome. Not only had Eobard revealed that he isn't related to Iris, but Stein, an ordained Rabbi, was right there when Eddie shot himself. Regarding the "making sure he and his relatives raise their children to be good people", he could've already done that in the other timeline and had Eobard still turn out evil, because Eobard is not Eddie's son, but a much more distant descendant, and something could've happened down the line after Eddie's death.
** Marrying Iris wouldn't have worked immediately either. Time travel here seems to work on the DelayedRippleEffect model, with bigger changes causing bigger and faster ripples. Eddie and Iris dating would have killed Eobard eventually, as the longer they stayed together the lower the chances of them splitting up and Eddie becoming Eobard's ancestor would be. Them getting married would accelerate that process. But the only thing that would stop Eobard right that second was Eddie killing himself, because there's no way out of that.
** Marrying Iris may not have worked ''at all''. Eddie wouldn't be the first man in history to cheat on his wife.
** Or divorce.
** 2015-2024 is also enough time for Iris to marry Eddie, birth a baby Thawne, have that marriage end and go on to wed Barry.
** All we (and our heroes) know about this part of the future is that 'Iris West Allen' was the credited writer of a newspaper article circa 2024. That name actually gives them very little. For all they know, it's someone with the same name or a misprint. Gambling the ancestry of their local supervillain on it would be pretty risky.
** Of course. But potentials are reduced. If Eddie never meets Iris, his chances of being Eobard's ancestor are quite high. If he dates her, the chances are reduced, because he might never meet the woman he's supposed to marry. If he marries Iris, those chances are further reduced. If they have a child together, even further. So on and so on until he's died of old age and never become Eobard's ancestor. The Reverse Flash stopped Eddie from proposing because it greatly reduced the chances of his timeline coming to exist, not because of any guarantees. That's why Eobard checked the future with Gideon every five minutes--because any time ''anything'' happened, something might have gone wrong with the future.
** First potentials are not reduced in any concrete way. We know nothing about who Eddie would have married. Maybe she was a friend of Iris that he originally met through Iris. Maybe she was an up and coming student who would graduate five years in the future and work at STAR labs. Time travel gets real wonky real fast. And the original question was about why did Eddie commit suicide rather than any number of other solutions to prevent Eobard from being born and that all boils down to he needed an immediate solution to a threat and he took a chance and it worked.
** Exactly, a split-second decision in a desperate situation. Had he thought about it further or had more time, he may have acted differently, but he didn't.
** IIRC, Reverse Flash literally ''had his hands around someone's throat''. The universe probably wasn't too interested in waiting to see what hypothetical situation or vow of celibacy Eddie was going to make. Killing himself was an ''instant'' solution to stopping Wells at ''that very moment'', not in ten years when his ancestor is supposed to be conceived.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Sudden elitism?]]
* What is with everyone's attitude towards Jax in "The Fury of Firestorm"? This kind of elitist "lol dumb kid just wasting his life" nonsense has never been foreshadowed in any of their personalities. I mean, Caitlin I can almost understand, since she sees Tokamak as a mirror of Ronnie, but she still kind of comes out of left field with the whole thing. It just feels like a lot of characters got clumsily derailed for AnAesop on not being a douche to someone when you don't know their story.
** Really, it was only Caitlin that showed a preference for Hewitt over Jax. Cisco and Stein couldn't have really cared less, and it was Barry that persuaded Caitlin to give Jax a chance. I also don't really think it was her displaying elitism as per se, it's just that she would have rathered Stein to fuse with someone that he shared common interests with, and someone that Caitlin wouldn't have to spend ages giving a "dumbed down" explanation of how the Firestorm matrix works. Also, like you said, Hewitt seemed much more similar to Ronnie than Jax.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Tokamak's beef with Team Flash doesn't make much sense.]]
* He wanted the power of Firestorm. After a delayed reaction, he gets the powers ''without having to share with anybody!'' Thanks are in order if anything, right? Yeah, I know he's got anger issues, but he got everything he wanted, only better.
** Powers drove his anger up like crazy, and there's also the ego. Some snot nosed punk got to be Firestorm instead of '''''HIM?!?!!?! THERE MUST BE RETRIBUTION!!!!!'''''
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why is Joe suddenly AbandonShipping Westallen?]]
* AsYouKnow, Joe has been a hardcore ShipperOnDeck for Barry and Iris for the last 15 or so years, to the point where he wouldn't give Eddie his blessing to propose to the latter. As has been implied, Joe really had nothing against Eddie other than the fact that Eddie was dating Iris when Joe wanted her to be with Barry. Now that Iris and Barry are both single again, and they both know that the other has more-than-platonic feelings for them, Joe just suddenly gives Barry his blessing to pursue Patty. Why? Note that in that same conversation, Joe told Barry that Barry would never feel the same way that he felt about Iris about anyone else. Also note that Eddie dated Iris ''and'' Joe knew Eddie before the latter was dating Iris for much longer than either Barry or Joe has currently known Patty. Why, then, did Joe detest the idea of Eddie and Iris being together, while now he's suddenly perfectly fine with Barry wanting to date Patty? Not only that, but Joe also didn't protest Barry dating Linda, and Joe didn't even ''know'' her!
** He hasn't given up on Westallen; he just knows that Eddie's death is still really weighing on both of them and in order to hash their feelings out, they'd have to talk about him which, neither of them are ready yet to do. He feels that Barry being with Patty will help heal him before he's ready to pursue Iris.
* Isn't it a little odd that he was rooting for his daughter and adoptive son to get together in the first place?
[[/folder]]
[[folder: No countermeasures against Dr. Light]]
* I find it strange that Barry doesn't even bother using sunglasses to protect his eyes from Dr. Light's super bright illumination. What's worse is that not once did he ever decide to put on some shades for his second and third encounter with Dr. Light. Did it occur to anybody at STAR labs that the Flash should be prepared for his any kinds of opponent the next time he fights them?
** Have you ever put on some sunglasses and looked directly into the sun before? It helps, but it still hurts. A lot. Doctor Light is specifically stated to possess the luminosity of a star. The only reason anybody can stand looking at the sun even with protection is because it's so far away. That close? I'm not sure there really is anything that actually can protect your eyes, rendering it a moot point. Frankly I'm surprised everyone in a several block radius doesn't just go permanently blind when she uses her powers.
** To the original problem just nobody thought of it. They don't tend to think of gizmos so much as they do (or more accurately Wells did) think of ways for Barry to fully utilize his power set. However a few major issues come up. No matter what Wells said Dr.Light is not harnessing the power of a star, her blasts are run of the mill energy blasts. At the very least they displayed little in the way of heat. Second, why didn't Barry just close his eyes or turn his head? She seems to have a charge up time that while it seems fast by our standards is absolutely nothing to a guy who can catch two bullets, then look around to make sure he hadn't missed one.
** Plus, even if S.T.A.R. Labs was able to craft lenses strong enough to block the light, the resulting darkness wouldn't allow Barry to see much else.
** I'd assume her fancy helmet/mask thing was to protect her own eyes, so he could've just worn that. But, I'd argue a more pressing problem is why he didn't just zoom off for a second so she didn't see him coming, then zoom back and knock her out before she saw him coming. There was no need to have a drawn-out hide-behind-cover fight the way they did.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why does Dr. Light want to kill Linda?]]
* When Dr. Light tries to kill Linda and replace her, she says that she's doing only because it's the only way she can hide from Zoom. How exactly would that work? Presumably Zoom has some method of tracking Dr. Light, because otherwise all it would take to hide from him is for her to change into civilian clothes and move to some other big city. And, since Zoom knows about the two Earths, presumably he also knows that people of Earth-2 have doppelgangers on Earth-1. So even if Dr. Light kills Linda and starts living as her, that wouldn't be enough to fool Zoom, and she should know it.
** It's true that when you think about it, that plan doesn't entirely work out, but it's one born of desperation and fear. That makes you think irrationally, so she probably hasn't thought it through. You see this sort of thing all the time in real life.
** Yes, these sort of things happen in real life, but ''The Flash'' is not in any way a realistic show, so ''someone'' should've noticed the obvious flaws in Dr. Light's plan. Barry is a smart guy, why doesn't he figure this out? When he comes to stop Dr. Light from killing Linda, he could've explained to her why the plan would never work, so that he could've persuaded her to help Team Flash to catch Zoom, without anyone getting hurt.
** What do we know about Zoom so far? Not much. Maybe Linda has a very good reason to kill her double to escape Zoom. And if not (beacause she is too stressed to think clearly) Team Flash doesn't have enough knowledge on Zoom to know it.
** It's more likely that Dr. Light wasn't thinking clearly: one of the most important aspects of KillAndReplace is that no one knows that you've killed that person. Walking into a crowded building in supervillain garb, while planning to murder your double in front of a dozen witnesses is rather counterproductive to ensuring that no one knows she's dead.
** Turns out her plan was to make Zoom think she was dead by leaving Linda's body for him to find. She admits this wasn't a good plan, just the best of a bunch of bad ones.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Clearing Wells' name]]
* Team Flash knew that the real Harrison Wells was dead and the Wells they were working with was Eobard Thawne. Cisco & Joe found the real Harrison Wells's corpse, so why wouldn't they use that to prove to the public that the Wells they know was an impostor. This would have been helpful, especially since Earth-2 Wells has come to Earth-1 but can't do much since he would have to hide from the authorities. Eobard made the confession as Harrison Wells. But given that the public knows about metahumans, would it be such a stretch for them to believe that he was an imposter from the future? Or at least say that Eobard impersonated Wells via shapeshifting or plastic surgery?
** Yes. Diggle over on Arrow mentions that a lot of people are still having problems with Metahumans, forget anything else. Team Flash probably didn't bother because originally it would do more harm than good. Wells was a "real" person to pin the death of Nora Allen on. Eobard Thawn hasn't even been born yet (and time travel shenanigans mean he never will). Without proof of how and when he did it, all sorts of other issues crop up. Like, can you give away Star Labs if you're an impostor? The existence of identical clones from Earth-2 is already causing some really annoying legal issues. Finally, listen to the way Team Flash talks about Eobard. To them, Eobard Thawn and Harrison Wells are the same person, not Eobard pretending to be Wells. When they talk about him they call him Wells. Cisco even finds it interesting that Earth-2 Wells has different musical tastes than a man Harry has no relation to at all.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry's facial hair]]
* Extreme and pedantic case of FridgeLogic here, so please bear with me. It's been established that Barry's powers cause his bodily processes and systems, such as his metabolism, to work at a much faster rate than muggles. Shouldn't he therefore have an almost permanent five o'clock shadow due to the speed at which his facial hair should supposedly be growing?
** If it was the case, then Barry should be constantly eating and drinking or suffer death by starving and/or dehydration. I assume that his metabolism is able to differentiate 'normal processing' (Hair growth, nail growth ...) and processing that happens when the body are in 'danger' (like being drunk and losing reflexes and coordination). The last ones happen at super speed to decreasing the amount of time Barry is in a sub-optimal state. So if Barry eats normally, he digests normally. But if he decide to eat sixty pounds of meat, his body will 'fast-digest' to avoid himself harming his stomach.
** [[AWizardDidIt Speed force.]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did Barry and Felicity kiss?]]
* Back in early season 1, Barry and Felicity decided to just be friends, acknowledging that, whilst they had chemistry, they were both in love with other people. They then proceeded to kiss ''on the lips'' in a non-platonic way, after which Barry leaves and the two seemingly pretend that it never happened. Did I miss something?
** I'd guess that kiss was their way of 'saying goodbye' or getting some kind of closure for the potential of their relationship. Just one, to acknowledge what could have been, before they go back to who they really love.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry's [[spoiler: broken spine]]]]
* Why did it surprise Caitlin that Barry couldn't feel his legs when he awoke after having the crap beat out of him by Zoom? He was apparently unconscious for quite a while. One would assume that, during that time, Caitlin would have performed numerous tests to determine the extent of Barry's injuries. Why, then, did she not already know about the condition of his spine?
** There was no reason for her to perform any tests. Barry got beat up, you get him some fluids and pain killers and lay him down.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Suit up, Harry]]
* Way back in season 1, Eobard Thawne travelled in time. It should have been a short trip: Go back, kill Barry, return to the new future, enjoy. And in Gorilla Warfare, we learn that he conveniently left another Reverse-Flash costume in another Reverse-Flash Ring that was conveniently found by Cisco when they needed Earth2-Wells to use it. How dumb is this ? Even if for some sort of reason (Fearing that he would need a new costume if the original is torn up) he created a new Reverse-Flash costume, there is not reason he left it behind when returning to its timeline. The confession video showed he is perfectly aware that Barry may decide to keep the timeline as it is, so there is no reason he left something as precious as a Ring to be reverse-engineering by Cisco or someone else.
** Ok, first off, that video indicated that Eobard was aware that something could possibly happen to him and he would die before his plan was completed, not that Barry would choose not to alter the timeline and stop him. Secondly, there was no reason for him to retrieve it at the end; if all had gone according to plan, everything Thawne had changed would've been undone, meaning the spare costume would no longer exist. Thirdly, even if all that wasn't the case, what makes you think Thawne would really care about leaving the spare costume behind? He spent the last 15 years screwing up the timeline, and the very reason he went back was to murder Barry before he became the Flash, potentially screwing up god-knows-what in his own time.
** Plus, I sincerely doubt that Barry could wreck any future plans Eobard has with a spare Reverse-Flash suit or a reverse-engineered ring that allows him to get his costume faster.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why didn't Zoom kill Barry as soon as he had him at his mercy? And how come he let Cisco shoot himself with a dart?]]
* There's no indication that Zoom has any kind of personal grudge against Barry, he just wants to get rid of all the speedsters. (And it would make little sense of him to have such a grudge, since a couple of months ago he didn't even know Earth-1 existed.) Before [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E6EnterZoom "Enter Zoom"]], he was perfectly fine with killing Barry by proxy (by sending metahumans to Earth-1 to do the job), so publically humiliating Barry clearly wasn't in his plan. So when he has Barry at his mercy, why doesn't he kill Barry immediately instead of running around the city and showing off in front of various Central City citizens? Since this kind of humiliation and making Central City scared of him wasn't in his original plan (when Barry was to be quickly killed by one of the other metahumans), why does he feel the need to do it now, even though it means taking the risk that Barry might come to his senses and escape? If he wanted to show Central City he's better than Flash, wouldn't it have been enough to kill Barry first, then flash his corpse in front of the journalists and cops? The effect would've been the same. Also, why did Zoom decide to kill Barry in front of his friends in S.T.A.R. Labs? Zoom knows that they have a weapon which might mess up his powers, so it's the worst possible place to show off. And if Zoom was able to catch the dart Wells shot, why couldn't he do the same with Cisco's dart? In both cases he was focusing on Barry, and the shot came as surprise to him, so why did he notice the dart the first time but not the second?
** We have to chalk it up to Zoom being both arrogant and sadistic. When all of Zoom's minions failed, he figured this Earth-1 Flash guy must be pretty tough. He apparently learns enough to know that he's the hero of Central City, and, angered that another speedster has gained such a powerful reputation, he sets out to make sure that the Flash is destroyed in a very public way. He might not have known that Barry was even still alive as he paraded him around the city. He did just shatter his spine, after all, which not a lot of people live through. He goes back to STAR Labs to give a final gloat to Harrison Wells and those who know the Flash the best, and in the process of mutilating his body by stabbing him, Barry makes a sound of pain, proving he is still alive. Relishing being able to murder Barry in front of his loved ones, he simply falls victim to the classic foible of EvilGloating, and Cisco is able to catch him off-guard. That's just my take on things.
** It might indeed be revealed later on that Zoom ''does'' hold a grudge against Barry when we find out Zoom's identity. It is also quite possible that he sends the Earth-2 metahumans to Earth-1 ''knowing'' that Barry will probably beat them, and simply enjoys killing (by proxy) for sport. If he's really that evil, I don't see why he ''wouldn't'' want to parade Barry's near-lifeless body around town. Zoom would also probably find it even more satisfying to kill Barry as his loved ones are ForcedToWatch.
** Confirmed that he's sending the metahumans through intending for Barry to defeat them because he wants Barry to get stronger and become a greater source of the Speed Force for Zoom to "feed" on.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How do most of the villains present a challenge to the Flash?]]
* Some of them have some sort of power that could conceivably be a half-decent counter to super speed, but for a lot of them there's no issue. The same is true for the police (mentioned above) who seem unable to shoot villains in the back just because they have an exotic weapon or superpower that is really no more useful than a pistol. It seems if you surprise Barry he might not be able to "turn on" his speed quickly enough (the same for Zoom in the case of Cisco's dart) but most of the time we don't have that excuse. Snart is one example. I seem to remember something about his cold gun lowering energy levels to the extent that Barry can't run as fast, but avoiding the gun itself should be child's play for the man who catches Joe's bullets after he fires at the Earth-2 Wells with little warning. By the same token, I don't see how Oliver Queen is any use to Barry in a fight. Speed ought to beat everything. I'm guessing this is addressed somehow in the comics, if anyone knows?
** Honestly, this has been a problem in the comics, as well as pretty much any media portraying superheroes: If they really cut loose, someone like Flash should be able to incapacitate pretty much every one in his Rogue's Gallery in one blow, with only other speedsters and guys with super strength (ie, Atom Smasher or Girder) being able to pose any sort of physical threat to Barry. That's why the comics enforce the "No-killing rule" and it's the same here. Really, Barry's probably holding back subconsciously, lest he accidently kill his enemies (I know he has in the show, but it's not his first resort). Plus, the Flash has always been a person to see the good in everyone, so he's more likely to offer redemption before resorting to physical violence. But in answer to your question: if you pay close attention, you'll see that most of the Flash's enemies aren't posing a direct threat to him, but everyone else. They use that to their advantage, targeting civilians, police, his friends and family, before blindsiding him with clever use of their powers. It's why Snart was such a threat in his intro episode; he put civilians in harm's way in order to catch Barry by surprise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:"You really think that leopard's gonna change its spots?"]]
* Over the course of the series, Leonard Snart has: killed a guy right in front of Barry, derailed a train full of people, taken Caitlin hostage, left her in a death trap, taken Cisco hostage, tortured his brother to make him give up the Flash's identity, betrayed Barry when Barry dealt with him in good faith, claimed that Barry owes him for keeping him safe when he wouldn't have been in danger if Snart hadn't betrayed him, and justified the whole thing with "I'm a criminal and a liar and I hurt people." And that's just the stuff Barry was personally involved with. And yet Barry thinks there's good in Snart and he secretly wants to reform because he loves his sister? What? Yes, yes, Barry likes to see the good in people, but he's never said anything like that to ''any'' other criminal, no matter what their motivations.
** Honestly, this bugged me too, but for different reasons: it's not like Barry's treating Snart as a special case, as he's offered redemption to several other members of his Rogue's Gallery, and even to those who he hasn't, he still often empathises with what they're going through. The main thing that bugs me is that everyone seems to treat Snart as redeemable because he's stopped killing people after making that deal with Barry[[note]] before murdering his father, anyway [[/note]], while ignoring the fact that he casually murdered Deathbolt in [[IncrediblyLamePun cold blood]], because (and I quote) "He owed [Snart] money." I know Deathbolt wasn't a saint, but everyone just seems to have forgotten about this, including Snart himself. Frankly, they have no reason to trust him, as he's broken every single agreement he's made with Barry.
** Good point about Deathbolt. There's a reasonable argument to be made that he actually did that in defense of Barry's life (he could hardly admit it to the other villains if so, after all), but he wouldn't have ''had'' to if he hadn't betrayed Barry in the first place. That's definitely a violation of the deal. And I really do think Barry's treating Cold differently. Who else has he tried to get to reform? The closest I can think of is trying to talk down Blackout, who hadn't done a quarter of what Cold has. He tried to make a deal with Dr. Light on practical grounds, he sympathized with Girder once he was dead and not before...seriously, who has he ever talked like this to? Am I forgetting someone?
** No, [[Literature/{{Discworld}} but he might change his shorts.]]
** In answer to metahumans he's tried to talk down (besides Blackout): if I remember correctly, Barry tried to get Multiplex to give up his rampage, and he did openly sympathize with Peek-a-Boo. As for the others, by the time he encountered them, they had already proven that they were just killing people for the hell of it, so there was no reason to negotiate with them. But in regards to Cold being treated differently to Barry's other enemies, if you pay attention to his first couple of episodes, Barry ''doesn't'' treat him like a special case, he treats him like the criminal that he is. It's only when Cold manages to learn the Flash's identity that Barry attempts to offer him a deal by appealing to Snart's ego (and that's only because Snart was threatening to reveal Barry's identity to the world). And really, he turns to Snart for help with the metahumans not because he trusts him, but because he's desperate for help. Even when Lisa comes to them for help, they still see Snart as a selfish asshole. It's only when they learn how bad Lewis Snart was (and Lisa's recounting of how her brother was the only one there for her), that Flash really starts to see Cold as redeemable.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Who owns the copyrights of a real hero ?]]
* So, [[spoiler: Oliver's child]] is playing with a "Flash" action figure. In this world, Flash is not a fictional character. And it seems unlikely he revealed his identity to get royalties. I just don’t see how this toy could exist without starting a court battle to see who is authorized to make that kind of toy and who doesn’t.
** Court battles require someone to sue. Barry clearly doesn't care, and it's not like he has an agent.
** Point is, if the Flash doesn't care to sell its image, NO Flash toy should exist. The fact that someone doesn't want to sell his image doesn't allow others to steal it. Especially since those kind of image stealing often lead to toys with choking hazard elements, lead painting, low quality and using said image to promote ideas not shared by the real Flash (like 'Buy our toy The Flash, The Flash thinks white people are better than black people. If you agree with him, help him by buying his Action Figure.")
** This is a problem some people have when they refuse to deal with copyright at all. Bill Watson, of ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'', famously refused to get involved, which is why you can find car stickers of Calvin doing everything from peeing in the gas tank to praying in front of a cross. Barry ''could'' make an issue of this, but until he does (or until someone does something really stupid like try to use him to promote racism), they can get away with it.
** Who in their right minds would make an unauthorized toy version of a ''supervillain'' and expect it to go well? William had a Captain Cold action figure as well. It also gets into the murky area of "Son of Sam" laws that are designed to prevent convicted criminals from cashing in on their notoriety.
** The city sells Flash merchandise (such as T-shirts) during its official Flash Day. Maybe they're the ones making the toys. Barry (as The Flash) may very well have given them permission for that, though the villains presumably haven't.
** If Barry wanted to, he could certainly take the toy company to court for using his likeness without his permission and win big. But to do that, he'd have to appear in court ''as'' Barry Allen and publically announce he's the Flash; the courts don't allow you to sue someone anonymously. So as long as Barry wants to maintain his secret identity, he has no legal recourse against anyone making Flash merchandise.
** Let's face it: It's [[{{Adorkable}} Barry]] [[AscendedFanboy Allen]] we're talking about. If someone approached him (as The Flash) saying "Hey, we want to make an action figure of you," he would probably be {{Squee}}ing on the inside. Doesn't he seem like the kind of guy who played with such action figures when he was a kid? As for Cold, assuming he is aware of the action figures' existance, he probably doesn't give a shit. The guy has bigger concerns than who is making toys of him, like running his criminal empire, for example.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Hawk ages]]
* In the Flash-Arrow Crossover, we learn that the Hawks (Hawkgirl and Hawkman, currently [[spoiler: Cisco's girlfriend Kendra, and a guy named Carter]]) have been reincarnated 207 times in roughly 4000 years, [[spoiler: and are murdered brutally in each life]]. This puts their average lifespan at around 19 years old.
** This may fall into ExactlyExtyYearsAgo. The RealLife Khufu actually lived a little over 4500 years ago; if they lived almost the same amount of time in each life, they would have lived to around 23 years. Not much better, but better. However, they probably didn't live the same amount in each life. Continued directly below.
** This actually combines NightmareRetardant with NightmareFuel. The ancient world was ''much'' smaller than the modern world, and so it would have been much easier for Savage to find the Hawks back in Old Kingdom Egypt than in the 19th or even 15th centuries. It is entirely possible that for a few dozen lifetimes Savage found them comparatively quickly (say, around 15 years), but after that it became harder and harder as the world grew – though the Internet would obviously have allowed him to find them much more quickly in this current incarnation. It's even possible the Hawks lived into adulthood or even old age in some lifetimes, depending on who they were born as (though that gets into WMG).
** Also note that Savage had to get around by mundane means, as covertly as possible, and slowly because he doesn't seem to have much in the way of resources so he can simply buy a ticket and travel openly (and by the quickest means). He was stowing away on a ship, the slowest form of intercontinental travel. Meanwhile the Hawks were being elsewhere when he had to kill them. There's also no indication of how soon he becomes aware of their presence when they reincarnated. He might only have a vague direction unless he's very close until they fully awaken. If they happen to reincarnate in the same region, he can probably track them down and kill them as children, or even infants. If they're born on another continent, he might have to wait until they release their powers before he can find them, and who knows at what age that might be.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Is Barry a virgin?]]
* Not that it's really relevant, but is he (as of Season 2, episode 8)? We only really know of one girlfriend that Barry had before Linda, Becky, but that was back when he was in high school. Then, him and Linda got cockblocked that one time, and at the moment him and Patty seem to be taking things quite slow. Hopefully I'm not the only person who has wondered this.
** A) If you have a steady girlfriend/boyfriend in high school, it's quite common to have sex with them; B) you can lose your virginity without having a steady boyfriend/girlfriend; C) sexuality is not an important theme in ''The Flash'', there aren't really any references to ''anyone's'' sex life, so the fact that Barry's isn't discussed doesn't mean anything.
** As of 2.10, he's pretty clearly not.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: So, does Team Flash think that Zoom can see what happens on the other side of the dimensional breaches?]]
* Now, I realize that [[spoiler: Zoom only sent metahumans after Barry to make him stronger so there would be more Speed Force to feed on.]] My question relates to that scene where Barry and Linda stage a fight between The Flash and Dr. Light to get Zoom's attention. As far as they know, Zoom has requested Barry's emblem as proof of his defeat (which is probably just part of his ruse because of the spoiler information mentioned above). Based on that knowledge, there is really no reason for them to assume that Zoom can see what happens on Earth-1 (if he could, he could check whether The Flash had been defeated without requiring a BattleTrophy as proof), so why do they even trouble themselves to fake a fight when they can just take the Emblem off of his costume and throw it through one of the breaches?
** Fact is no one in Team Flash really knows what access Zoom has to our world. For all they knew, Zoom could have hidden surveillance cams near portals. And the "Send the Flashs symbol" could be a safeguard (Only the villain from Earth-2 knew about it, so if team Flash staged a fight using a villain's double. The double wouldn't sent back the badge, so Zoom would know it's a trap.).
** ''[[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E15KingShark King Shark]]'' makes it clear why Zoom didn't show up: he was probably well aware of what the team was up to since he hangs around the lab on a regular basis.
** That wasn't Zoom. Probably. There are at least two men with Jay Garrick's face, and the one who's been helping Team Flash isn't Zoom. Zoom was even carrying Jay's body when he was unmasked to make it clear that they're two different people and not speed clones. Zoom might have stopped by once or twice to spy, but he definitely wasn't doing the same as Reverse Flash last season.
** Its been confirmed the Jay we've been seeing all season was Zoom, so yeah.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How much Eobard Thawne knew about Earth-2?]]
* At the end of season 1, Eobard Thawne saw Jay Garrick's Helmet and told the heroes it was his 'cue to leave'. Does that mean Thawne knew about Earth-2, and in that case how? He changed the timeline so that Barry could become the Flash 5 years earlier. Meaning that in the original story, Zoom killed Jay Garrick without any dimensional portal coming to the rescue. If somehow Thawne travelled to Earth-2, he may have met Zoom but not Garrick.
** There's no evidence that time traveling in one universe could affect the timeline of another universe, seeing as the timelines of both aren't exactly the same[[note]] The STAR Labs of Earth-1 was founded in 2000 (both before and after Eobard changed the past), while the STAR Labs of Earth-2 was founded in 1991 [[/note]]. At any rate, Eobard may have encountered Jay Garrick at some point, but not necessarily the Jay Garrick of Earth-2, considering the very nature of the Multiverse.
** Given the nature of the multi-verse he may very well have come into contact if not with Jay specifically still speedster who wore that helmet. Virtually nothing is known about how alternate universes and time travel interact in the Arrowverse so there may have been no "originally" Zoom vs Jay. This could be the only way it ever played out. At the very least it's implied that Zoom knows about the multiverse since Jay mentions he wants to be the only speedster. So unless Earth 2 was filled with Speedsters once and Zoom hunted them all down or he's been hopping around doing this for a while. He apparently never stumbled over Earth 1 in the original timeline since Eobard (who had no reason to lie about this) claims that he and Flash were evenly matched. Even if we accept that he tried to kill baby Barry because he was the weaker of the two it's still described as a genuine battle. Current Barry was losing to Eobard but not being utterly curbstomped which leads to Zoom utterly crushed Barry. A gap in power that high would easily have allowed him to beat Eobard and/or most likely Future Barry.
** Alternatively he knows about Zoom. Zoom is a big deal and he knows enough about Flashes in general to see that come popping through, believe it means a Flash just died and wants to avoid an opponent he cannot defeat who wants to kill him.
** Perhaps when Eobard says it's "his cue to leave," he's not concerned about the significance of the helmet, but that objects as large and heavy as the helmet are coming through the breach; it might indicate some quantum physics junk is going on and the breach will close shortly. (Although, to be honest, I'm a bit more curious about Eobard's off-hand reference to Rip Hunter).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why can't Jay go back and forth between Earth 1 and Earth 2]]
* At the start of the season when Team Flash needed knowledge on Earth 2 and Zoom and Jay was being setup as a mentor to Barry it made sense for him to stay on Earth 1, but since Wells from Earth 2 came he basically filled not only filled the Earth 2 knowledge broker and can teach Barry some new tricks with his speed that even Jay doesn't know there doesn't seem like there is much for Jay to do. As the season as progressed it is becoming more apparent that the writers are struggling to give Jay more to do beyond opposing Wells reckless ideas (while not having Jay give any alternatives to the team). Why can't Jay go back to Earth 2 to investigate Zoom or ask for some of his friends help (wasn't implied to have known other heroes?) then hop back and forth between the two Earths? It seems like a better idea to keep Jay useful, while not having the character being a series regular.
** I was under the impression that they knew how to send him to Earth 2, but not how to bring him back.
** Turns out, he has been. WordOfGod after ''[[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E15KingShark King Shark]]'' aired was that the Jay under the Zoom mask is indeed the Jay people have been seeing all season.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Joe, Francine and Wally]]
* In 2x03, Joe says to Iris that Francine was a cop's wife and knew how to stay hidden. Then in 2x09, he tells Barry that was a lie to save his pride - that he just never went looking for her. So which one is it? Because if it's the first one, then even though Wally has reason enough to be mad at both of his parents, it makes sense to be slightly more mad at Francine than Joe because he never knew anything. But if it's the second one, then Wally has every right to be mad at Joe for not looking, especially since he's been living in ''Keystone City'' this whole time. I mean, I feel it's understandable for Wally to be angry with Joe anyway, because his mother is dying and he has to race cars to pay her hospital bills when Joe and Iris seem to be doing fine, but I'd like to know who told who what.
** Since Joe admitted he lied the first time, presumably it's the second one.
** Almost definitely the second. She may have known how to stay hidden but she was a druggy and Joe even as a cop has extremely limited legal measures he can use to compel her to do anything she's not in the mood for. Wally is pissed because he's a teen in a crappy situation. Joe didn't know he existed and even through his anger I suspect Wally knows that if Joe had even suspected he had a son that he would have moved heaven and Earth to find him. Instead when his druggy wife ran off for the nth time he decided to focus on Iris and shortly thereafter on Iris and Barry.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's age]]
* How old is this woman? We find out early on that she has a triple joint degree in Biology, Chemistry and Physics, and that she graduated from the police academy a few months ago. Given that we heard that Barry is 25 in the pilot, I'd put her at the same age. But then we find out that she and her father owned a shoe shop, and the reason her father is dead is because a pre-Weather Wizard Mark Mardon robbed it while she was out with her friends after school. I'm assuming that would put her in high school, but she says that Mardon killed her father a few months before he got powers - which, if we're going with the timeline of the show, was around 2 years ago. If all that info we got is correct, Patty is 19-20 on the show, but managed to get a triple joint degree and graduate from the police academy in two years, which beggars belief even for this show. I could be wrong and missed something, but I'm just so confused!
** She was obviously out with her friends after her classes at college.
** I don't remember her saying that the incident occurred a few months before Mardon got his powers. However, in a deleted scene from the mid-season finale, she mentioned that her father died when she was 17, so it's plausible to think she still could've been in either her last year of high school or first year of college then. Then, in the actual episode, she says that her father died 4 years ago, making her 21. I'm Australian so I don't know how the tertiary education system works in the US, but here it is possible (albeit difficult) to complete a science degree with 3 majors in 3 yrs. Her being able to do so can be put down to Patty being the intelligent nerd that she is, and her starting college at age 17. This would make her 20 when she graduated college. It can then be assumed that she joined the police academy shortly afterwards, and I think that takes a year (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), making her 21 when she graduated from that and then joined the CCPD. Therefore, she is currently either 21, or she might have just turned 22.
** Right, that makes sense. I think I was working off that deleted scene, so they must have deleted it because it contradicted what they said earlier, I guess? Because then it would make sense that her father was killed and then Mardon got powers a few years later, and that she had been following him since her teenage years.
** Okay, (I don't mean to create natter, so I'm sorry if this sounds like it) so are you saying that she's actually probably closer to Barry's age and by "school" she really meant "college"?
** Most likely.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Disposition of the Turtle]]
* Why is the Turtle locked up in the Pipeline? Season 1 established that running a secret supervillain prison under STAR Labs is morally, legally, and practically a terrible idea, which is why there is now a metahuman prison wing for this very situation. As unethical as imprisoning Hewitt in the Pipeline was in 2.4, it was at least established as a temporary measure until he agreed not to tell anyone their identities. But the Turtle doesn't know anything about their identities--or he didn't until they all decided to assemble in front of him--so why didn't they hand him over to the police? Did Patty not notice that her abductor was never arrested? Of course, the underlying reason for this is presumably so that [[spoiler: Harrison could easily murder him]], but that's...''really'' not a justification.
** They locked the Turtle in the Pipeline because they believe that his power is the key to countering Zoom's speed. They wanted to study and hopefully replicate the effects, therefore they need him close by so they can have regular access to him. It would kinda difficult to get regular access if he was locked up in Iron Heights. Presumably, once they were done with him, the Turtle would've been turned over to the proper authorities, but [[spoiler: Harrison made sure that that wouldn't happen.]]
** It's also mentioned that the Turtle has been evading the authorities for quite some time now, so Patty and the others from the CCPD probably just think that he got away again.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's [[spoiler: reason for leaving]]]]
* Patty says that she's leaving Central City to study to become a CSI, her dream job that she never ended up pursuing after she joined the CCPD to honour her father. However, she said several episodes earlier that she studied a science degree in which she triple majored in biology, chemistry and physics. Why didn't she just study to become a CSI from the get-go? Is she talking about getting a masters degree? Someone who is familiar with how science degrees in the US work please enlighten me.
** The reason why she became a cop in Central City is because she wanted revenge against Mark Mardon/Weather Wizard for killing her father. Remember, now that Mardon's in jail, she's finally got justice for her father's death (although she did try to pull the trigger on Mardon back in the Christmas episode). With that being resolved, Patty has no other reason to stick around in Central City, so she can finally move on and get her dream job as a CSI.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did Iris believe Barry?]]
* When Barry's mother died, did Iris believe that Henry was innocent? I don't think it's ever outright stated, but there seems to be evidence pointing to both answers. For example, Henry has said, I think more than once, that Barry was the only one that ever believed in his innocence. However, Iris I'm sure also had some sort of WhatTheHellHero moment towards Joe in the pilot when Joe tried to talk some sense into Barry and convince him that his father was guilty. There's also the fact that Iris believes that Barry is a bad liar, plus he only ever kept one secret, the fact that he loved her, from her before he became the Flash. I'm sure you can see my confusion.
** I think she probably did believe him simply because, like you said, Barry has never lied to Iris apart from those two times. Besides, the whole reason everyone started believing in Barry as the Flash was ''because'' she believed in impossible things. Maybe Barry didn't tell Henry because Iris was just another kid like Barry? Or he may have thought that Henry would see it as Iris only saying she believed him about Henry because they're best friends.
** This doesn't really have anything to do with Barry's honesty so much as what Barry chooses to believe about his father though. It's not a lie if your information turns out to be incorrect that's just you being wrong so Iris's ability to tell if he's lying has no bearing. The question here boils down to what did Joe actually think vs what was he telling a child and eventual young man so he wouldn't waste his life trying to get a guilty man out of jail (in his opinion) or did he believe Henry to be innocent. Given what interactions we see between Joe and Henry it seems safe he always had his doubts. Which means Iris, smart woman and girl that she is and was probably defaulted to Barry is right.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Everyone has a doppelganger?]]
* Earth 1 and Earth 2 are not identical twins. While it's not 100% clear what the characters know we as viewers know that on Earth 2 Oliver Queen died with the Queen's Gambit. Our Harrison Wells died 15 years prior to the main story. Without Barry becoming the Flash it's probable that Nora Allen survived. So we know the doppelgangers are not tied to each other. As in dying on Earth 1 means nothing on Earth 2 and vice versa. More to the point (despite how frequently it happens in fiction) names aren't planned out. As happened with Jay, your doppelganger could have a different name because of something as silly as your Earth 2 Mom being a huge fan of Star Wars and naming you Luke instead of Bruce because your Mom loved Batman. I understand looking and hoping because that's what you do, but not the outright refusal to accept that things weren't identical seems wrong based on differences they have to know about such as who has super powers.\\
This just makes no sense. In "The Reverse Flash Returns" Caitlin and co. are sure Jay has an Earth 1 double. The show seems to run on (and this seems confirmed by previews showing Earth 2 Caitlin, Ronnie, and Barry) the idea that everyone on Earth 1 has doubles on Earth 2. Except we've seen Earth 2. We know it has a vastly altered timeline and world, with a War of the Americas, Gorilla City, different technology and aesthetics. That clearly means that not everyone would have the same relationships, due to early deaths, or just different circumstances from past changes in Earth 2's history. A few doubles makes some sense. But ''everyone'' having a double? It's FridgeLogic and a serious headscratcher.
** This is especially true because they know that Jesse doesn't have an Earth-1 doppleganger due to Earth-1!Harrison Wells and Earth-1!Tess Morgan dying before they could conceive her.
** How is the fact that an AlternateUniverse is different yet similar to another, a headscratcher exactly? To borrow a phrase from VideoGame/BioShockInfinite; there are constants and variables. Considering the very nature of the multiverse, not only is it very possible for there to be a variation of Earth with the type of divergence yet similarities to Earth-1, there '''must''' be a version that's exactly like that. As for why Team Flash assumes that the doppelgängers of Earth-2 have similar names, histories, and appearances to their Earth-1 counterparts? Chalk that up to Occam's Razor mixed with a bit of confirmation bias: Besides Zoom, Harry and Jay, every metahuman from Earth-2 that they've met had a counterpart with the same name as their Earth-1 counterpart, so logically, if you're searching for an Earth-1 double of someone from Earth-2, (ie, Jay Garrick), you try to find someone with the same name. If that fails, well, back to the drawing board.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: You can't change the past, except sometimes you can?]]
* In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E11TheReverseFlashReturns "The Reverse Flash Returns"]], Dr. Wells says that killing Reverse Flash won't stop Barry's mother from dying, even though this version of Eobard Thawne hasn't done it yet, because that event is already in the past, so it's a fixed point that can't be altered. Later on this idea is reinforced when Cisco starts to fade out: since Eobard already caused him to get his powers in the past, that is also fixed point which must be allowed to happen to avoid a paradox. But in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime "Out of Time"]] Barry traveled to the past and changed it without any repercussions, and the same thing happened later in [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday "Legend of Yesterday"]]. So apparently in the Series/ArrowVerse you can't change the past, except when the plot demands so?
** If you take LegendsOfTomorrow into account the following is true. Time is like concrete, it takes a while to set and become fixed. In both cases quoted here Flash went back ''during'' the event in question a tidal wave and large scale explosion respectively. They didn't even have a chance to finish much less become set in the time stream. Eobard here raises an entirely different problem in that he exists and yet doesn't. Eobard's changes remained in place because they were 'fixed' in time, so why did Eddie's suicide actually kill Eobard who should have been similarly fixed. Clearly it failed to do its intended purpose of wiping him out entirely. I think it's clear that in the Arrowverse time travel does what it wants because fuck you that's why.
** It could just be that it was an attempt to stop [[ArtisticLicensePhysics ignoring physics]]. Erasing a person from the timeline would mean [[NoConservationOfEnergy violating the Law of Conservation of Energy]].
** One interpretation is that it depends on the length of time between the change and the original event. The changes mentioned above (the tidal wave, the explosion, the alterations made to the past in Legends) were all short-term: The Tidal Wave would have hit less than a day after the moment Barry traveled back to, the explosion was only hours later, Ray's suit likely wouldn't have taken very long for Savage to replicate, and the event at which Martin Stein was to meet his future wife was the same night as the event that stopped it from happening. It could be that these events would take less time to become "fixed" than Eobard's birth, which was ''years'' in the future. This would explain why Eddie's suicide would still affect him. However, the circumstances of Eddie's death create a TemporalParadox, so a version of Eobard had to be left behind in history so that the events of Season 1 could still happen (that may not make a lot of sense, but call it the [[AWizardDidIt the influence of the Speed Force]] if it helps.)
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why does Zoom need Harry's help?]]
* We see that Zoom is blackmailing Harry to force him to help steal Barry's speed. While it makes for good drama, it's unclear why exactly he needs Wells' help in the first place. In the flashback to his fight with Jay, Zoom seemed perfectly capable of stealing another speedster's speed on his own, and pretty quickly at that. Why go through the trouble of blackmailing Wells when he's shown to be perfectly capable of stealing speed himself? Is there some reason he was able to steal Jay's speed on his own but can't steal Barry's? The only explanation at the moment is that he's just doing it ForTheEvulz.
** Explained as of "Welcome to Earth-2". [[spoiler:Zoom didn't steal Jay's speed. Turns out [[DrugsAreBad a side-effect of]] [[FantasticDrug the Velocity drug]] is [[DePower power loss]].]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why do they keep referring to Reverse Flash as "the other Wells"]]
* They keep acting and speaking as if Reverse Flash was this earth's Wells, when they know perfectly well that they've never actually met him. He died a long time ago. It's incredibly strange when they talk to Earth 2 Wells as if he were Reverse Flash's doppleganger. He's the doppleganger of a man they've never met.
** While Thawne wasn't born as Earth 1's Harrison Wells, he did live as Wells for 15 years. As far as most of the world is concerned, Thawne ''was'' Wells.
** That doesn't answer the question, though. Unlike most of the world, the protagonists know the guy they worked with wasn't Wells but Eobard Thawne. And yet they keep making comparisons between Eobard and Earth-2 Wells, as if he's merely an Earth-2 version of the person they knew, even though he's not.
** When you spend at least several months with someone calling them something, it's gonna stick in your mind. To them, he was Wells, even if he just stole the identity.
** This consistently bothers me too. It's like the writers keep forgetting that Earth-1 Harrison Wells was a distinct entity from Eobard Thawne. It's incredibly disrespectful in-universe also, that the innocent guy who died a very painful death and had his identity stolen, is attributed to all the horrible stuff that happened.
** Earth 1 Wells is also a man none of the main cast ever met, he died while they were children. It cannot be stressed enough that for all intents and purposes his name was Wells not Eobard. For fifteen years nobody called him any different or knew any different. What actually odd in universe is that Wells and Eobard DO have such similar personalities despite being utterly unrelated people. Nobody else seems to be particularly close to their doubles.
** Because Eobard based his Wells impersonation on his earlier (from his point of view) meeting with Harry.
** Not really. Earth 1 and Earth 2 Wells are very different, and I don't see Earth 2 Wells and Eobard as particularly similar, aside from in the very superficial. Tina [=McGee=] also noted that Wells changed a great deal when he was replaced.
** Personally, if I knew a guy who turned about to be someone else completely, and then someone who looked and was ''extremely'' similar to the person who was impostered, I'd say "The other (blank)." I'd stop after because of how disrespectful it is, but point still stands.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did the masked man use the knocking code?]]
* He could've easily used his fingers to make the motions of letters, and it'd have been faster too.
** That's a little harder to do. I have done that, and many people have problems understanding it. His knocking is probably best, and is actually better than Morse code, because Zoom may know Morse, but has no idea of the knocking idea.
** Zoom knowing Morse Code is pretty meaningless since he's not pants on head retarded. He clearly knows that masked man is trying to communicate when he gets back. Morse Code also has the additional benefit of being more widely known than Prisoner's Knock. If you're trying to communicate quickly you want to use the most universal system you can find.
** The knocking code was developed by prisoners because they don't need to watch, or even see, each other in order to pass messages.
** That's not really relevant here though, because the masked man's mask has eyeholes, so he can see the Flash and Jesse, and he knows they can see him too. And as pointed out above, as soon as Zoom gets back he would realize the knocks were a code, even if he wouldn't necessarily recognize that particular code. So the masked man could've used any code he wanted while Zoom was away.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:No biological function on Earth-2?]]
* OK, Barry was kept prisoner for less than a day so I give a pass, But Jesse and Iron Mask are prisonners for months, and I failed to see how they can do ... err ... basic natural evacuation. In the same way, how can the Iron Mask eat ?
** Obviously, Zoom brings a bucket. Which is hilarious to think about. He's probably an evil maid for them.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Shouldn't Earth-2 Iris be pissed off at Earth-1 Barry?]]
* Think about it from Iris' point of view: Earth-1 Barry kidnaps her husband, locks him in a closet, and pretends to be him, right down to kissing her and all. It was because Deathstorm and Killer Frost are searching for Earth-1 Barry that Iris' dad gets killed, so he's partially responsible for that. And when Earth-2 Joe is on his deathbed and saying his final words to his "son-in-law", Barry ''still'' keeps on pretending. He could've easily used his super-speed to get Earth-2 Barry there, so at least Joe would've had the chance to talk to his real son-in-law before his death. But when Iris learns all this, there's no reaction at all. Admittedly they had bigger things to consider at the moment... But at the end of the episode, when she finally has a chance to talk to Earth-1 Barry, it's just tearful goodbyes, and Iris isn't the slightest bit mad at Barry for the awful things he did. What the heck?!
** I agree that maybe Iris should have been more mad at E1 Barry, but I'm looking at it as a combination of understanding the magnitude of what was going on because of the threat of Zoom, since he is actually a resident of ''her'' earth, not theirs, and the writers not having enough time. They had to fit in E2 Iris finding out the truth, teaming up with Harry and Cisco, finding Killer Frost and rescuing everyone, before going back to their earth, as well as all the stuff on E1 with Geomancer. The writers probably thought an emotional goodbye would be better than Iris being upset with Barry for the impersonation. Plus, from the way that everyone had on those metahuman alert bracelets in the bar, it looked like people are more used to metahuman attacks than our people, so normal people being killed seems like a more regular occurrence.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's exit]]
* Upon doing a rewatch, Patty's last scene makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would she think it acceptable to trick Barry into revealing his identity to her...on a crowded train? Even if you leave aside the fact that it felt very manipulative because he obviously had no desire to tell her, and you argue that she just wanted closure, could she not have done it anywhere else? Also, if she was so adamant that she was leaving before, why would knowing that he's the Flash be enough to get her to stay, when being a CSI is apparently her dream job?
** Knowing he's the Flash ''isn't'' enough to get her to stay. But realizing he's had a good reason not to be letting her in is enough for her to offer him a second chance to do so. If he'd taken her up on that and offered her a serious relationship, that would have outweighed the CSI job for her.
** Fair, but that doesn't answer why she felt the need to trick him into telling her. What kind of relationship was she expecting to have with him after that?
** Presumably, she'd have apologized or something, and they'd probably would've have done a bit together before ''getting'' together.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Iris, he touched you]]
* In Fast Lane, Iris confronts the guy running the drag races, and, after revealing that she's been taping their conversation, says something along the lines of "If you touch me, all of this information goes to the CCPD." Guess what the creep does next? HE TOUCHES HER, AND SHE DOES NOT GO TO THE COPS! Admittedly, he threatened her friends and family, but still!
** She might have meant it in an "I've arranged for all of this information to go to the CCPD if anything bad happens to me" kind of way, rather than literally telling him not to touch her.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Amazing new weapon, lets' never use them!]]
* So Zoom sends' another metahuman to try and kill Barry, Dr. Light. They defeat her and then by some technomiracle, recreated her powers into a pair of gloves, which are powerful enough to actually do some real damage, why not suit up someone or refit them for Garrick while he was depowered? We don't know how much besides hand blasts they copy, they could use them to blind Zoom, remember Barry was blind for most of the day.
** If I remember correctly, they didn't make the gloves that actually replicated her power, but rather ''resembled'' it. We don't know if they even came close to Dr. Light's power output, considering that they only made it destructive enough to be believable, rather than as powerful as they could go (which is probably also why they never bothered blinding Zoom with it). As to why no one else used them, considering how difficult it was for Linda to use them, not to mention the various technical malfunctions, they may have figured that it wasn't worth the effort (and walking around with glowing hands would be rather conspicuous anyway).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why Team Flash thinks [[spoiler: Jay Garrick is Zoom?]]]]
* I don’t get why at the end of the ‘Trajectory’ episode Team Flash suddenly believe [[spoiler: Jay Garrick]] is Zoom. It’s seems they just assume the blue lightning is caused by the [[spoiler: body decay]]. They seem to forget that people can have doppelganger, that speed mirage only works when the different places are very close, that [[spoiler: Jay has to use V9 while Zoom at the same time on Earth-2 was in full possession of his powers]]. Given how [[spoiler: Jay Garrick]] helped them, it’s strange none of them tries to defend him or find another hypothesis.
** They believe it due to Cisco's vision from touching Jay's helmet, plus Thawne was able to make it look like the Reverse-Flash was beating himself using a mirage.
** Yes, but they know doppelgangers and shapeshifters exist and they know speed mirage works at close range ... not between two Earthes without a portal to connect them.
** Regarding the powers, let's not forget that Zoom has been killing speedsters and draining their speed force.
** Exactly. So, as Jay, he doesn't have to use V9, right?
** Barry didn't trust Jay when they first met him. It took his friends to make him realize just because Thawne tricked them didn't mean Jay would. Now they have some signs pointing that Jay might be Zoom, so it makes sense for Barry to think Jay lied to them. His experience with Thawne definitely made him less trusting of people. He was the one arguing for Jay being Zoom at the end of the episode when Cisco and Caitlin were arguing it made no sense. Cisco vibed Zoom every time he touched Jay's helmet and actually saw what appeared to be Jay when Zoom took off the mask. If Jay's trustworthiness is called into question that automatically means everything he told Team Flash about Zoom is called into question. Jay already lied to them about how he lost his speed. Sure at the time he gave Caitlin a reasonable explanation, but how can they be sure he was telling the truth then? Jay was experiencing the same cellular damage Trajectory was facing. When her body disintegrated after her lightning turned blue it made Barry think it could be connected to Zoom. Neither they nor we know if Zoom is in full possession of his speed or if he is taking Velocity serum. There is no concrete evidence for either right now, but if Zoom needs Velocity to recover his speed it would explain why Jay doesn't show any signs of Speed Force when Caitlin examined him. As Harry theorize it would also explain why Zoom is obsessed with stealing Barry's speed if he needs it to save his life or restore his natural speed. There could be more going on here than what Team Flash thinks, but there is enough clues and bits that it is understandable why they think Jay is Zoom. Barry isn't ready to give Jay the benefit of the doubt, especially when he did that with fake Wells and it blew up in his face.
** Aaaaand, they were right. The person they knew as "Jay" was Zoom the whole time.
** Right for the wrong reasons.
** Actually hey had good reasoning. They witnessed that Trajectory-9 caused blue lighting, who has been using Trajectory? Jay. They had Cisco's visions whose accuracy has been spot on. And ever sine Wells they are unfortunately used to having former mentor/friends turn out to be not who they say they are.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How is Zoom still alive?]]
* Trajectory's lighting turned blue just before she ran herself to death. So how is Zoom still alive? His lightning is blue, so how hasn't he ran himself to death yet too?
** It's somewhat implied that's why he's been going after other speedsters' ...speed, to stave off the effects of the drug and find a cure.
** Caitlin also has a brief line about V9's lethality when Trajectory invades STAR Labs: she notes that the lethal effects of the drug are much more dangerous when one doesn't have any aspect of the Speed Force in them. Zoom definitely has the Speed Force in his body, but Eliza never did, hence why she starts disintegrating after her lightning becomes blue.
** Team Flash just assume that Trajectory's lightnings turned blue because of the body decay caused by V9. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe, for example, once a speedster reach a certain speed, his (or her) lightnings turn blue. In Trajectory's disappearance in that case is only due to pushing her power to Zoom's level while having a body decay. If Zoom doesn't have that decay, like Barry, he can use his powers as much as he wants.
** It's stated somewhere that while Zoom pretty much destroyed his Speed Force connection with V9, the little of it there is still there keeps the decay ''extremely'' low. Presumably, the more Speed Force one has, the less the decay affects them till Therese nothing left. When Zoom got Barry's speed, it rebuilt his Speed Force, curing the decay.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Is Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper a metahuman?]]
* I always thought that he wasn't, and that the particle accelerator merely damaged his hearing without actually giving him powers, which is why here he's listed under the "Non-Metahuman Criminals" section. However, the Arrowverse wiki seems to disagree with this, and categorizes him as a meta-human with superhuman hearing but which needs to be kept in check by biomedical devices that he designs or else he'll experience SensoryOverload. (http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Hartley_Rathaway)
** That's just my point of view, but painful hearing problem looks more a medical problem than a superpower. But since this problem was caused by the particle Accelerator, maybe the wiki considers him to be the biggest loser of the SuperpowerLottery.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Fire Gun of Doom]]
* Shouldn't Heat Wave's fire gun be far deadlier than it's depicted? It's been described as weaponizing "absolute hot" the same way as Captain Cold's cold gun weaponizes absolute zero. So shouldn't Heat Wave's targets explode due to the "absolute hot" flames flash-boiling the water in their bodies? For that matter, shouldn't the gun kill everyone around it due to "absolute hot" dispersing through convection?
** Just because it weaponizes that level of heat doesn't necessarily mean the flames it produces are that hot. Plus, the gun could just have adjustable heat levels.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Name Choice]]
* Why exactly does Rathaway call himself the "Pied Piper" in the show? In the comics, the name made sense because he used sound waves for hypnotic purposes at least some of the time. But in the show, he mostly just uses them to directly cause destruction. So where does the name come from? Shouldn't he have named himself something more intimidating?
** There are some parallels between Rathaway and the Pied Piper of the fairy tale. He's a man who provided a service, got cheated by his employer, and came back for revenge. He's probably using it in the "pay the piper" sense.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: So, which Earth is Hunter Zolomon from?]]
* If Zolomon is under the mask and he was created during the Particle Accelerator explosion on Earth-2, then how does he look exactly like Jay, who we've seen is also from Earth-2 (given how they were shown fighting each other before the breach opened up)? There are doppelgangers, but they're generally AlternateUniverse doubles. We've never seen two from the same Earth before. And if Zolomon is from Earth-1, then why didn't he come after the Earth-1 Flash before? Or The Reverse-Flash? Given that he's on a clock to steal Speed Force before he dies, it wouldn't have made much sense for him to just leave two speedsters in the same area alone for a whole season. Is he from a third, previously unseen Earth (this would explain a lot)?
** There may be another reason. In "Trajectory", after Eliza Harmon reverse-engineers the Velocity-9 drug and uses it on herself, she gains tremendous speed -- but develops a SplitPersonality and it killed her rather quickly (maybe because she didn't have the connection to the Speed Force that Jay or Zoom did). We know that Jay took the Velocity-6 drug and it began killing him, though if he has a connection to the Speed Force, the drug might be just killing him more slowly than it killed Eliza. What if the drug also created a SplitPersonality in Jay as well, only literally? Jay might have split into two or even three people, assuming that the Masked Prisoner also looks exactly like Jay, with Zoom or Zolomon being the SuperpoweredEvilSide of Jay -- and also dying.
** This is all explained in "Versus Zoom".
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Cisco and Caitlin, Declaring Bankruptcy?]]
* How do Cisco and Caitlin get paid? Most likely government funding has been pulled from STAR Labs after the accident that killed a large number of people, and Wells/Thawne, who may have privately funded the lab, is now gone, and has left the lab to Barry. So how are Caitlin and Cisco making a living, when their new "boss" earns a meager CSI's salary?
** STAR Labs has been around even before the Particle Accelerator incident, so supposedly they still own a few patents that they can draw some funds out of. Not only that, but STAR Labs was the one who provided the CCPD with their Anti Meta-Human weaponry and equipment. Assuming CCPD still use these on a regular basis, they may be keeping STAR Labs on some sort of retainer for equipment maintenance, consultation, and eventual upgrades. If ''other'' police departments in ''other'' cities start using that equipment, the money would go to STAR Labs since they're the ones who own that patent. (Cisco invented those devices while under the employ of STAR Labs. Therefore, those devices belong to the company, not to him.)
** Considering the kind of next generation tech they create, I'd say those patents are extremely lucrative. Which raises a really important question: why has nobody acknowledged that Barry Allen by all logic is a millionaire or billionaire now? All evidence indicates that STAR Labs is a private corporation, without shareholders, meaning that Barry Allen is the sole owner of STAR Labs. Considering the sort of next level technology they create their patents are worth billions, and Wells' house was pretty snazzy so we know he wasn't exactly broke. Barry Allen is a billionaire now. This creates a giant plothole with Wally's plot. Barry shoulda been like "Medical bills? I got this."
** It's entirely probable that neither extreme is the case. First, let's assume that STAR Labs is a wholly-owned private corporation, because Thawne wouldn't have wanted any interference in his plans. So Thawne passed ownership of that corporation to Barry after his death. All well and good. While STAR has millions of dollars worth of assets, it probably also has millions of dollars worth of liabilities. It may even have already declared bankruptcy and reorganized during Barry's coma. So the net worth of the corporation is probably near-zero. It may have enough residual income coming in to offset its operating expendatures but probably not by much. Anything extra probably goes to funding the activities of Team Flash. (Those friction-free suits have to come from somewhere!) In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if we see a "STAR Labs is going broke" plot-line in some future season. Even if STAR Labs is losing money, if it was financially secure enough before the accident it might have the resources to coast for years at a minimum operating level like it is currently.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The crossover with Supergirl]]
* Why is Barry completely unfazed by the fact that no time has passed after returning from Supergirl's dimension? Why doesn't he feel like he has to tell to the others what just happened?
** To the first question: The guy has fought evil speedsters, various metahumans, a walking shark, and he recently met a superpowered alien. YearInsideHourOutside probably ranks pretty low on the "weird shit" scale at this point. To the second: Because only a few seconds have passed, he's still got a confrontation with Zoom to prepare for, which is a more immediate concern than telling his friends all about Kara's Earth.
** He also asks, "How long was I gone?" The rest of Team Flash, understandably, doesn't realize what's happened, and talk to him about his speed before they move on to Zoom again. And as the above says, he's got more important things to worry about at the moment.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Was Jay real?]]
* So now we know that Jay Garrick is Hunter Zolomon/Zoom. But was there ever a real Jay Garrick? If there was, how does Zoom look exactly like him, and if there wasn't, why did Zoom spend all those years posing as Jay Garrick and being a good guy? And what reason would there be for him to take on the name "Jay Garrick" in the first place? Why not just use his original name since he didn't plan on anyone connecting his name to Zoom?
** Based on what has been revealed thus far (as of 2x18 "Versus Zoom") it does seem like 'Jay Garrick' was just an alias Zoom used while pretending to be a hero in order to "give people hope...then take it away from them". Obviously he needed an alias because if he went around calling himself 'Hunter Zolomon' everyone would know he was the notorious serial killer who had been put away a while back. Granted, its entirely possible that there is more to the story of how and why Hunter became 'Jay' and chances are that a 'real' Jay Garrick will be introduced at some point during the life of the series.
** It's worth noting that "Jay Garrick" is a pretty specific alias to go with, so Zolomon probably didn't just pull it out of thin air. Plus, Greg Berlanti has [[https://twitter.com/GBerlanti/status/722882921854427138 stated on Twitter]] that the crew has no intention of making Jay a case of AdaptationalVillainy, so there probably is a real one out there
** Maybe he's the Man in the Iron Mask, who may or may not even look like Teddy Sears. With Berlanti's WordOfGod in mind, things probably happened like this: Hunter Zolomon finds Jay Garrick, an average Joe, who was affected by the particle accelerator, becoming a speedster. Hunter abducts the Real Jay, puts him into a speedster cage, steals his identity as both civilian and the Flash, starts acting as both Flash and Zoom "to give people hope, so he could take it away from them". As for why does nobody recognize that the man who is calling himself Jay Garrick doesn't look like Real Jay? Well, Earth 2 Hunter is a serial killer - he could don the Zoom costume, murder all friends and relatives of the Real Jay, forge documents ('cause who can stop a speedster from doing that?), thus giving his own version of "Jay Garrick" a motive to be a hero and "fight" Zoom.
** The reveal that there was no "Jay Garrick" on Earth 1 was a great clue to the eventual Zoom reveal but also raises a couple questions: It seems inconceivable that there's *no one* with that name as it's not that uncommon. Maybe Caitlin was looking at a specific age range (e.g. if I'm looking on Facebook for a "Jay Garrick" I went to college with, I'd logically narrow the search to a set number of years). We know that Hunter's father fought in the "War of the Americas" (potentially a clever way of having a Justice Society on Earth 2 that isn't tied to a war with a specific date like in the comics but simply "some point in the past"). What we see Hunter's father wearing (the classic Jay Garrick costume) could simply be what most soldiers wore during that period and is no more unique as army fatigues or a dress uniform. This troper's suspicion is that Hunter's father and the real Jay Garrick are connected somehow: Maybe Jay Garrick like Joe West was responsible for putting James Zolomon away for the murder of his wife. And unlike Barry and Joe, Hunter didn't find a substitute father figure in Jay. No, it's more likely that he held Jay responsible and wanted to make him pay. "Versus Zoom" goes to great lengths to set up the parallels between Barry and Hunter -- the latter even saying, "We're not so different." Iris and Caitlin even comment on Joe and Barry's "special bond" in a scene that almost seems superfluous if it's not meant to provide a clue.
** This is explained in the Season 2 Finale. [[spoiler:The real Jay Garrick is Henry Allen's doppleganger from Earth-3. At some point before the portal opened, Hunter Zolomon/Zoom imprisoned him and stole his identity. They Jay we saw throughout the season, however, was always Zoom.]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How did Zoom get back?]]
* In 'Versus Zoom', Zoom takes Wally back to Earth-2 where he meets the man in the iron mask. A short while later, he brings Wally back to Earth-1 to make a deal with Team Flash. But how did he travel between dimensions without Cisco's powers? And if he could just run between Earths, why did he have to wait for Cisco to open a portal to Earth-1 near the middle of the episode?
** It seems that once Cisco opened the breach, it stayed open and Zoom was able to easily traverse it.
** No, Barry had them reopen the portal to confront Zoom and stop him. ''Why'' he thought that was a good idea is beyond me.
** Me and a few other friends have theorized that Barry thought Zoom would probably just start destroying all of Earth-2 and try to find a way to get to another Earth to try again.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Shouldn't Zoom be dead?]]
* Zoom claimed he made it look like he was in two places at once by essentially recruiting a past version of himself and convincing him to get murdered. But doesn't that mean Zoom shouldn't exist anymore? If he was murdered earlier in his personal timeline, how could he still be around in the present?
** He called it his "temporal remnant." Like with Thawne--Thawne doesn't exist any more, but a few pieces of him are still running around the timestream to prevent paradox. So maybe the current Zoom is just the same thing, a ghost who will disappear once his role is over. However, that would be a DeusExMachina, so instead it's probably easier to assume that Zoom traveled from just a few months in the future, and the shorter timespan means less damage to the timeline.
** The 'timeline remnant' explanation actually ''doesn't'' make sense at all in this context. What's happened with Zoom, allegedly, totally contradicts what happened with Thawne. In Thawne's case, when Eddie kills himself in 2015, the Thawne bloodline from that point forward is erased, leading to Eobard being vaporized. However, Eobard's 'timeline remnant' from an earlier point in his life, protected by the Speed Force, still appears in 2016, and no doubt retroactively, the Eobard who showed up in 2000 to kill Nora Allen has also become a 'timeline remnant'. The point is that Eobard's story still ends the moment Eddie kills himself and he gets vaporized...that's the end of Eobard's life (as far as we know). Contrast this with what we're told happened to Zoom, where he apparently killed his past self and negated his existence, yet continues to exist. Going by the Thawne situation, the moment Zoom killed his younger self, he should have vaporized as well (the 'timeline remnant' in this case would actually be future Zoom showing up to kill his younger self, to preserve the new timeline and prevent a paradox).
** Eobard was erased from existence when Eddie, his ancestor, killed himself (and presumably generations of innocent people, but let's not get into that right now). Zoom literally killed *himself.* Eddie's actions make it impossible for Eobard to exist. It's also not a form of the "Grandfather Paradox," because while the Reverse Flash threatening to kill everyone is *why* Eddie takes his own life, the Reverse Flash doesn't directly kill his ancestor. Zoom's actions, however, are an example of the "Grandfather Paradox," but restricted to his own timeline. Zoom removes a version of himself from the past, who immediately becomes a timeline remnant because the original Zoom never left the past and went to Earth 1.
** You are also assuming that [[Main/VillainsNeverLie Zoom is telling the truth]]. Recall that the episode that revealed to the audience Zoom's face had him saying "This is a complication" with regard to Jay's death. Why would he say that if Jay's death was a part of his plan all along?
** No, people just assumed that "complication" refers to Time Remnant's death. It's more likely that Zoom was referring to the fact that Time Remnant Zoom has helped to close the last breach between worlds. If not for Cisco's re-opening of the breaches, Zoom would be left to die, stranded on Earth 2. THAT was the complication, that haunted Zoom up to 2x19.
** It's worth remembering that Earth-2 is an AlternateUniverse, and therefore the same rules that govern Earth-1 may not necessarily apply. There is a lot of overlap between the two, obviously (the Speed Force, most of the basic rules of physics, metahuman powers, the same individuals, etc.), and yet there are still differences, like the fact that Cisco couldn't use his powers on Earth-2 due to the different vibrational frequencies. Getting back to my point, it's possible that the rules governing time travel aren't quite the same on Earth-1 as it is on Earth-2. Therefore, it's possible that Zoom could kill his younger self without erasing himself from existence, or affecting anything else that happened. Alternatively, when you mix Time Travel and Alternate Universes, the results are likely unpredictable. There's nothing to suggest that Time Travel in one universe could have any effect on another. Note that Zoom, a resident of Earth-2, murdered his younger self on Earth-1, and since Zoom never existed on Earth-1, he couldn't exactly be erased from that timeline. And now, I have a headache.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Star Labs is a threat to Central City]]
* Some tropers mentioned their concern last season with how Star Labs operated outside the law (imprisoning metahumans without a trial or even questioning them without legal representation). However, ultimately, a villain was running the operation, which "justified" some of the darker aspects. This season, it's harder to rationalize, especially since Joe West -- a police detective -- is directly involved with them. The events of "Versus Doom" had civilians managing a hostage situation like rank amateurs and the end result was catastrophic and a direct threat to millions of lives. I get that West is Wally's dad, so he is understandably not thinking clearly, but his larger duty would have been to call in trained professionals. You never negotiate with a known criminal in this situation, and you definitely never barter the safety and well-being of another person for the hostage. You can argue that the Flash is not a mere "civilian," but he was not simply sacrificing himself (like the officer who volunteers to switch places with a hostage). His speed is basically a nuclear weapon in the hands of a terrorist. And it would be laughable to imagine any sane law enforcement personnel or government agency trading a nuclear weapon for a hostage. If those were the terms, you officially consider the hostage dead and double down in taking out the terrorist for the murder that is *entirely the terrorist's fault.* Or you come up with a plan to stop the terrorist and bring back the hostage safe and sound. But willingly handing over a nuclear bomb is asinine.
** This is probably the IntendedAudienceReaction. We're clearly supposed to think Barry is making the wrong choice – actually, Joe is the one who tells him that he shouldn't give up his speed. Besides, it's not like they could stop Barry from trading himself any more than they could stop Zoom from taking Wally. The real question is why [[MagnificentBastard Harry]] didn't sabotage the exchange to kill Zoom.
** A better question than that is why Barry didn't simply betray Zoom as soon as Wally was safe; at this point, Barry ''is'' more powerful than Zoom thanks to Thawne's tachyon upgrade, but rather than attack Zoom he just hands over the power even though it meant nothing could stop Zoom afterwords. The answer to that though is simple: The same reason Barry and co let Thawne out and began helping him get back to his time after he explains to Barry how to travel through time in the S1 finale. Barry, really, is just kind of an idiot about this stuff.
** First many of the things Star Labs does that are illegal fall under ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight. Until S2 the regular prison would have held a meta human for about five more minutes than said Meta felt like getting free room and board. Additionally with characters like Eiling and Waller running about I'm not certain a rational person would really want a Meta in a scenario where they could be studied and possibly reproduced or even implanted with a bomb and recruited to the Suicide Squad. As for true hostage negotiations the rules are a little different with Zoom who frankly was being polite by holding Wally hostage instead of offing him to make a point then grabbing Iris or Joe and negotiating. Also the Flash is NOT a nuke. Nukes are big and messy. The reason we don't want other countries to have nukes isn't because they might kill a an important person it's because of the huge unavoidable long term collateral of one. Only a handful of people in history are sufficiently evil that given Flash's power would actually do damage remotely on par with a nuclear bomb.
** The above solves absolutely nothing; '''''WHY DIDNT BARRY JUST THROW ZOOM IN THE PIPELINE?!?!?!?!'''''
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Who trained Zoom?]]
* Thawne as Wells helped train Barry Allen, and STAR Labs made his costume. But who was Zoom's support system? His lair implies a significant level of technical achievement (the cells). Did he also come up with a way of diagnosing his "speed sickness" on his own?
** Presumably Zoom figure it out on his own. He does appear to possess scientific knowledge, since he created the original Velocity formula to increase his speed. He might not have needed a support system. Barry has one, but we don't know he couldn't have figured out his powers on his own. There is a good chance in the original unaltered timeline that Barry did figure out his powers on his own.
** Bear in mind that there's still a lot unknown about Zoom and his backstory. WordOfGod says that the Man in the Iron Mask figures into that. For all we know, the Man in the Iron Mask could have trained Zoom in the use of his speed (especially if he himself is a speedster).
** Most other metahumans appear to have figured out their powers on their own (granted, most of them have less complicated powers), as have the Kryptonians in {{Series/Supergirl|2015}}.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Wells' brilliant idea]]
* Okay, so after berating Barry for giving away his powers and getting a lesson in humility from Griffin Grey about how the particle accelerator explosion affected some people Wells' idea is: Let's do another one! It seems kind of weird for him to do this considering he acknowledges he made mistakes.
** They don't have a lot of options either. Zoom is even faster than before, healthy again, and can travel between both Earths. Barry needs his speed if they have any hope of stopping him.
** Judging by the promos for the next episode, it seems that the 'particle accelerator explosion' in this case is more of a contained experiment designed only to affect Barry and not anyone else.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Where did the alloy come from?]]
* Where exactly did Felicity get the dwarf star alloy that Team Flash put in Barry's suit when he fought Griffin Grey? Nothing in the show indicates that their Earth has advanced-enough space travel to go out and get it from a dwarf star, so how did dwarf star alloy end up on Earth? True, the show says that the alloy came from Ray's Atom suit experiments, but that only raises the question of where HE got it from.
** Ray got it from a mine. It's a rare material, but it can still occur on Earth somehow. It doesn't really matter ''how'' the material forms on Earth, only that it ''does''.
** "Dwarf star alloy" doesn't have to be a literal name. Maybe whoever discovered it just thought it would sound cool.
** An episode of ''Legends'' confirms that the material does occur naturally on Earth. It's just incredibly rare and hard to detect without appropriate equipment.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How is Hawkgirl alive?]]
* The 2024 newspaper mentions that Hawkgirl was involved in the fight against the Reverse-Flash before he and Barry traveled back in time. But in Season 2, we meet Hawkgirl... and if not for the intervention of the Flash, she would have been killed by Vandal Savage in 2016 (meaning that her reincarnation wouldn't be older than 8 by 2024). How could she survive in the original timeline, where the Flash didn't exist (and Team Arrow wouldn't have known to get involved)?
** Which instance do you mean? Would any of her interactions with Savage been absolutely ''impossible'' for her to survive on her own?
** The real answer is did and we'll likely never figure out how. Time travel has some [[ButterflyEffect truly odd]] consequences. Flashpoint Paradox has Flash go back and save his mother. Among other changes Bruce is killed instead of Thomas Wayne, Superman is found by the authorities as a baby and Aquaman and Wonder Woman have an affair that leads to a world war. None of those situations should logically have been effected by Flash saving his mother. So Flash appearing when he did setting off any chain of events that lead to Carter finding Kendra sooner and fleeing to Poughkeepsie successfully is a lot easier to swallow than that. ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow'' makes it explicit that Savage doesn't always catch them in their twenties or thirties.
** Simple answer. In the original timeline, Kendra wouldn't have been with Cisco at Jitters. She might not even have known Cisco (who in turn probably wouldn't have known the Flash yet). Wherever else she was, she was somehow able to evade Vandal Savage long enough to survive and live another nine years at least. Maybe in the original timeline, Carter found her a lot sooner and rescued her himself. With the ButterflyEffect in play, anything is possible.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does Zoom Science?]]
* So, with the reveal that [[spoiler:'Jay Garrick' is really Hunter Zolomon]], how does Zoom do the science stuff he does? How did he develop Velocity 6? How did he test his blood to find out he was dying? How did he build the complex Speedster-proof cells in his Zoom-cave? How did he build the Speed Cannon to get people through the Earths? How does he do any of the science stuff that he's shown doing [[spoiler:as both Hunter/Zoom and Jay]]?\\
I mean, Jay was a scientist, but [[spoiler:Hunter was just a serial killer and mental patient]], and at no point is it said he studied any science before that, given his appearance indicates he was probably not a 'smart' killer. How did Zoom do any of those things if he's not actually a scientist?
** Earth 2 is ridiculously more advanced than Earth 1 is. The Particle Accelerator there came online at the same time without a genius from the future helping. Jesse Wells has a throwaway line about having five separate majors and asks if that isn't normal on Earth 1. We don't see a lot of Earth 2 but what we have seen suggests that Zoom may not be THAT brilliant by the standards of his Earth. Additionally a lot of this technology may exist at least in part over there.
** Barry is shown learning things by rapidly reading books and being able to retain the knowledge, so there's no reason Zoom can't. As for his look after he was seen to have been arrested, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg This]] is what the Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) looked like when he was arrested, had scored 167 on an IQ test, entered Harvard University at age 16 and was considered a mathematical genius when he earned his [=PhD=]. For all that's known as yet, Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon could very well have been equally intelligent as well as nuts.
** Furthermore, WordOfGod has confirmed that not everything is known about Zoom's backstory as yet and the Man in the Iron Mask was very much a part of it. It may well be possible that Zoom learnt a lot from the Man in the Iron Mask before imprisoning him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How can Zoom and Reverse Flash be so fast?]]
* Zoom is supposedly about four times as fast as Barry. How is that even possible? We know that the series puts something of a cap on how fast a speedster can travel, it's about 1600 mph (Mach 2) after that you literally tear holes in time. Two of Barry's time traveling experiences were accidental so we know it's not really a matter of wanting to go back in time. Shouldn't Zoom be randomly opening portals?
** In both times Barry accidentally time traveled, he was trying to deal with major disasters (a tsunami about the flatten the city that he couldn't stop, and Vandal Savage's disintegration wave), so he might very well have been desperate in wanting to have some way of stopping it, especially the second time when he knew he could time travel, and that unconscious need allowed him to travel in time. Zoom and Reverse Flash don't ''want'' to travel in time. Zoom might not even know he can--he doesn't seem to have ever been in a situation where he'd feel the need to--and so they don't. So time travel for a speedster might mean both having the speed to do so and feeling the need to do it.
** A couple points: Zoom definitely knows he can time travel (it's how he created a version of himself to murder in front of Team Flash) and Reverse-Flash definitely wants to time travel; his whole plan was finding a way to get back to his timeline. In Eobard's case, his connection to the Speed Force was in flux after he murdered Barry's mother, which is why he couldn't time travel in Season 1. As for Zoom, he may have realized he could time travel during his time on Earth-1. Plus, the whole Mach 2/time travel thing also had the Particle Accelerator in the mix, so I doubt it's as simple as 'Barry runs at Mach 2 and can travel through time'. As for his accidental time jumps, he technically knew it was going to happen in advance thanks to the echoes he sees at specific points in time, so when he accidently jumps, he may be unintentionally focusing on that point in time.
** As for Zoom and Reverse Flash being so much faster, that largely has to do with the fact that they're artificially enhancing their speed: Zoom has been abusing Velocity-9 to travel faster, while Thawne has made use of tachyon particle enhancement to go faster (which Barry also makes use of later in season 2). Presumably, as noted above, 1600mph is not a hard-and-fast limit for speedsters per se, and they can travel much faster without initiating time travel or opening portals so long as they're careful not to. Since the Speed Force is somewhat sentient, after all, intent probably plays some part in time and inter-dimensional travel.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Wally and Jesse's exposure to the particle accelerator explosion]]
* Both of them were hit and knocked out by the dark matter wave inside STAR Labs at the same time, yet Wally shrugged it off like it was nothing while Jesse went into a coma for nearly an entire episode. Does the explosion affect individuals differently even if they're in close proximity with each other like the Mardon brothers?
** First, Jesse is from a different universe and presumably will react to things differently than anyone else would. Aside from that, Wally may not actually have been affected. Lots of people were outside when the original explosion happened, but they didn't all develop powers; Wally may have the potential for powers but it hasn't been activated.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does the Speed Force work?]]
* The show says that the Speed Force is an extra-dimensional energy source that Barry can tap into in order to use his powers. But other times the show acts like the Speed Force is a finite substance contained in Barry's body, such as when Wells used his technology to remove some of it from Barry and make him slower, or when Zoom physically stole the speed from Barry in exchange for Wally. So which is it? Is it an infinite source that Barry accesses, or is it a limited power contained in Barry's body?
** These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Speed Force is a fundamental part of nature and is infinite. Barry as an individual can only store and access a finite amount at any given time. Additionally the Speed Force is sentient and given how it seemed to have been insulted that Barry would give up his powers opens the possibility that it may let things happen because it disagrees with your actions.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: When and why did Barry change into uniform to chase Zoom]]
* [[spoiler: When Zoom comes and kidnaps Henry Allen with the intent of murdering him he comes into a celebration for Barry who is in civilian clothes at the time. Zoom grabs Harry and runs, Barry pursues and he's magically in uniform. Barry changing from civilian clothing to Flash happens in a flash from our perspective and those of other humans but we're talking about remaining in pursuit of a man who can outrun bullets.]]
** Who knows, maybe Harry got Eobard Thawne's micro tech working, allowing Barry to store the Flash suit close at hand.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Zoom unmasked]]
* Zoom is unmasked when discussing his plan with Black Siren. She doesn't seem shocked to see him this way either. I know Siren was presumably a high-ranking member of Zoom's gang, but that is an uncharacteristic level of trust for Zoom. Why would he let anyone know that "Jay Garrick" is really Zoom? It's potential for blackmail or a commodity to barter if the police manage to catch her. (I'm going to give Zoom the benefit of the doubt that Siren wasn't actually planning to betray him but was stringing "Reverb" and "Killer Frost" along.)
** Well, Black Siren was his top lieutenant, and it does seem like he has a more personal connection with her as compared to Reverb and Killer Frost. So its possible she always knew what he looked like (in fact, there's nothing established in previous episodes which proves that Reverb and Killer Frost DIDN'T know what Zoom looked like). Also, Zoom may well have abandoned the "Jay Garrick" identity by this point...Jay would anyway have been considered 'missing, presumed dead' on E2.
** He probably doesn't ''care'' that much about it. Pretending to be Jay Garrick was a hobby for him, a way to entertain himself at the expense of the city; the only time he needed the identity to be kept was when he was on Earth 1 and needed to continue the illusion to manipulate Team Flash. Its entirely likely that a lot of his gang knew about it too so they could all joke about it, and while one may offer it to police, its not a big enough deal and, even if he ''did'' care about it enough, he's insanely powerful and could kill any/all of them with barely a thought.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why not kill Zoom?]]
* In the S2 finale Team Flash manages to get the boot on Zoom bringing him down low enough for Joe to briefly fight him in hand to hand and for Wells to shoot him to push him through a breach to Earth 2. You know what's better than sending Zoom back to Earth 2 where he'd inevitably find a way back given enough time? Filling him with bullets.
** Unless you're the Punisher, it's kind of hard to be seen as the good guy if you go around shooting people to death.
** Joe's a cop. Zoom is at the very least as strong as a demigod. No court in either world would ever convict him, and nobody would ever blame him, and two worlds would consider him a hero for it.
** You assume he could have just shot him. He didn't have his gun and Zoom's suit would have likely been bulletproof. It would have hurt but, you know.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Wally unlocking the Pipeline]]
* How is Wally able to free Barry out of the Pipeline? Wouldn't he need a passcode for that? Does this mean that STAR Labs security is so bad that any guy off the street could potentially walk in and free any metahumans still kept in the Pipeline?
** Given it was Barry they locked up, its like that the security was deliberately lax in comparison and they didn't bother setting a password.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why leave Wally out of important Team Flash decisions?]]
* Wally knew that Barry was the Flash, and has shown himself to be basically good enough to be a part of Team Flash decisions. So why, when Team Flash minus Flash decided to enact a very dangerous plan to defeat Zoom, one which got Joe trapped in Earth 2 for a time, did they not even inform Wally of this beforehand? If not for him deserving a spot on Team Flash, couldn't they at least have told him about it because their plan put Joe in danger?
** Wally hasn't really been a part of the team, or the Flash's world, long enough. Apart from being Joe's son and Iris' brother, not to mention discovering the Flash's secret quiet by chance, he's pretty much just another bystander. So unlike all the others, he really doesn't have an understanding of the stakes involved, or the sacrifices that might need to be made. For that reason, he didn't have a say. And he wasn't informed precisely because they knew he'd have the reaction he actually did - freak out if something happened to Joe and do whatever it took to get him back (including freeing Barry).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why not save [[spoiler:Henry?]]]]
* At the end of [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E23TheRaceOfHisLife "The Race of His Life"]], Barry is depressed because his father had just been murdered. Then he decided to travel back in time and save... his mother?! Why not save Henry instead? Barry knows that altering the past can have a huge ButterflyEffect; at the end of the previous season his older self warned him not to save his mom, and he agreed. And the further down the past you go to change the things, the bigger the butterfly effect will be. So why does Barry go back 20 years and save his mom (an event which, if altered, could lead him into not becoming the Flash to begin with), instead of going back a day and save his dad, whose death he was actually mourning? Barry knows that if he cancels the events of one day, the butterfly effect won't be that dramatic, since he's done it [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime twice]] [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday already]]. Seems like the only reason the writers made Barry save Nora and not Henry was because they wanted to adapt ''Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}}'' for the next season.
** By saving Nora, he saves both of them, and obviously he doesn't care about the consequences by then.
** Agreed. As Joe said at Henry's funeral, Henry lost fifteen years of his life, his reputation, and for all intents and purposes his son. The Reverse Flash killed Nora but basically slow tortured Henry. Then he's free for about a year and Zoom kills him. I can see Barry flipping out and doing what he does over the compounded injustice. Barry's an incredible optimist and the possibility of getting his father back and making everything right had been driving him for years. Now it's all gone.
** In Barry's mind, the death of Nora Allen is where all the tragedy in his life began. If he can avert that one tragedy, the first one, he can undo a lifetime of pain. Moreover, Barry ''knows'' for a fact that his mother wasn't originally supposed to die and Thawne altered the past to make it so, so from a certain point of view, he feels justified in altering that one event to something closer to what 'originally' happened.
** Barry's plan is clearly as stated above a very simple Save my Mother Save the World sort of mentality. And despite the fact that it might prevent him from becoming the Flash it shouldn't. Our very specific Flash is not the result of a scientist making a mistake. He was the result of twenty years of planning by a genius from a century in the future with a computer that could predict the future. Barry stopped Eobard but it looks like he knocked him out rather than actually killed him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry at the Grave]]
* Given the serialized nature of third act of Season 2, including the episodes when Barry was powerless, at what point in time did he have time to visit Oliver [[spoiler: at Laurel's grave]]?
** Best option is between episode 21 (when Barry gets his powers back) and episode 22 (when Team Flash is aware of Laurel's death). There's even an apparent gap of time at the end of Episode 21 when Barry and Iris visit Nora Allen's grave.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Zoom and the Man In The Iron Mask (season 2 finale spoilers!)]]
* So, all this time: 1) Zoom had invented a device that could suppress a speedster's powers. 2) Zoom had a speedster as his prisoner. This may call into question some of his actions over the course of the season. Why did he need to drain Barry of his speed, when he could have just done it with Jay Garrick? Why did he never use another speed-dampening mask on his enemy, e.g. in "Enter Zoom", or when Barry is prisoner in "Escape From Earth-2"?
** Understanding Zoom's plans can be tricky in the sense that we only really hear about them from Zoom himself during Villain Monologues. The show provides no Objective Perspective of what transpires. But my best guess, based on what we're told:\\
Zoom starts taking the speed drug that makes him fast enough to travel to other Earths. He learns about Jay Garrick/Flash, but it's around that time that he also discovers that the speed drug is killing him. After searching for a cure to no avail, he then kidnaps Jay Garrick/Flash as both a "trophy" and a failed attempt to steal his speed. It's clear from the events of Season 2 that Zoom can't take a speedster's powers by himself -- that was part of "Jay Garrick's" original lie to Team Flash. He needed the help of Harrison Wells. And it was Wells alone -- in fear of his daughter's life -- who discovered how to steal Flash's speed and transfer it to someone else. All Zoom basically did was kidnap the people (Jesse and later Wally) that would force everyone to play along. Basically, we have no evidence that he's much of a scientific genius on his own. It's a fair assumption that the speed dampener was something Zoom co-opted. And either there was only one or the technology just didn't work on Barry.
There is also the question of Zoom's actual motives during "Escape from Earth-2." As "Jay" (or at least Zoom's time remnant at this point), he makes every effort to try to get Barry, Cisco, and Wells back (when it would be easy enough to just fail in fixing the speed cannon). At this point, Zoom has Barry and Jesse hostage and is scouring the city for Wells, who once he captures, he can force to steal Barry's speed for him. However, Zoom later states that he faked Jay's death primarily to motivate Barry to "get faster." So, it's possible that he did want Barry to eventually escape. After all, Zoom loses his cool and phases through Barry's cage to beat the crap out of him, which was what gave Barry the idea of how to escape. Zoom is usually more restrained. So maybe this was all part of his "long con."
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Man In The Iron Mask (season 2 finale spoilers!)]]
* So, is it just a major coincidence that the man Zoom is holding prisoner is a speedster who happens to physically resemble Henry Allen? I know various clues have been dropped throughout the season (including Henry's comment about his mother's maiden name), but still, presuming that Earth-3's inhabitants are ''also'' doppelgangers of Earth-1's inhabitants (or vice-versa), of all 7+ billion people on the planet, the resident speedster hero of this universe just happens to resemble the father of the resident speedster hero of Earth-1? ...Maybe there's something I'm missing? Maybe it hasn't been explained yet? Maybe the Speed Force willed it to be this way? I'unno.
** That's the very definition of the multiverse: for every possibility, no matter how unlikely or outlandish, there ''must'' be a universe where it is the truth. Therefore, a universe like Earth-3 where the resident speedster resembles the Henry Allen of Earth-1 is not that implausible by comparison.
** Not to mention, the 90's series is ''also'' part of the Multiverse, and therefore, by the same logic, the Barry Allen of that earth has to be another doppelganger of Henry Allen. That means there are a minimum of ''four'' Henry Allen doppelgangers in the CW Multiverse right now - Earth 1 (deceased), Earth 2, Earth 3 ('Jay Garrick') and Earth 4 ('Barry Allen'); of whom, one if the father of a speedster and two of them ''are'' speedsters. My guess is that the Speed Force somehow ''does'' seek out the Allen bloodline. In fact, in a wonderfully meta way, is it possible that the Speed Force sought out Earth 1 Barry, because he was the son of the doppelganger of Henry/Barry/Jay (a nod to how the character played by John Wesley Shipp was the ''original'' live action Flash?)
*** It's also possible that the the shot of 90's Barry Allen we saw was actually Jay Garrick's old suit.
** Hunter Zolomon is also the "evil" version of Flash on a world where most of our heroes are evil. It doesn't seem that outlandish that a proper "good" version of Flash on yet another world would be "related" to Barry. Much like the comic book Earth 2, where the heroes are generation older than Earth 1's heroes.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How do time remnants work?]]
* On the show, the writers seem to throw around the phrase "time remnant" as if somehow that means that traveling through time means you can "die" without really dying because there are two of you. If Barry's method for creating a time remnant (travel back a few seconds in time next to yourself) actually works like that, wouldn't the Barry that traveled in time dying mean that Barry dies? Furthermore, if the Barry pre-time travel dies, doesn't that mean that the post-time travel Barry would dissolve into nothingness like Eobard/Wells did in the season 1 finale? I just don't get it. If anyone can explain how this works, it would be much appreciated.
** I think it's safe to say that time remnants, just like time travel in the Arrowverse, works: it does what it does because 'fuck you that's why.' In all seriousness, it seems that when you create a time remnant, you effectively clone yourself into two separate individuals, the 'older' of which is probably the one to die, allowing the younger to survive and avoid any time paradox. Why Barry never did this before when he accidentally traveled through time is something we can only guess at, but if Zoom's dialogue is any indication, it's a rather advanced ability that you have to really want to do. Add onto the fact that it seems to seriously piss off the Time Wraiths (considering how they seemed much more angry at Zoom for constantly creating time remnants and killing them), and it's understandable that it's something Barry would only do in desperation.
** Time remnants are possibly a way to 'cheat' the time-stream by running back just a few seconds into the past...so close that the time-stream doesn't even detect the two speedsters as a 'past' or 'future' version but as identical duplicates, removing the causality between them.
** Here's the most logical way to think about it: At some point in time you decide that you need an alternate version of yourself to die gloriously to advance your plans. At some subsequent point in time, you time-travel back to fulfill that goal and the time-travelling version of you dies. After that, the contemporary you moves forward in time naturally but when it comes time to go back, you decide "screw that, I'm going to live." You've now created an alternate future time-line where you ''don't'' die gloriously in the past. But the alternate-you from the other future still exists in the past as a "remnant" of the old future time-line. Hence, "time remnant."
** You create them by setting up a StableTimeLoop, but then don't close the loop. You travel back in time, to a point ''before'' you decided to travel back in time. You then ensure that your Pre-Time-Travel self ''doesn't'' travel back 'again' (from your Post-TT perspective), meaning both versions of yourself will exists ''past'' the point at which the Pre-TT version should have 'disappeared' by travelling back in time. Paradoxically, you shouldn't exist, because you've prevented the original event that caused you to be in the past. This is why the Time Wraiths don't like you doing it.\\
Most of the time remnants we see are created to be disposable - to sacrifice themselves reasonably quickly and shut down the paradox that way. So far, only one time remnant has been shown to live past his pre-determined point of expiry - one that Barry created. The mental strain caused by existing in tandem with his original self, but being considered an aberrant tool rather than a copy of Barry caused him to snap and become ''Savitar''. So while it appears theoretically possible to duplicate oneself and have that duplicate live an entire life as a distinct individual, the practicalities of this make it a generally bad idea.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Mental time travel (past-self merge) vs. time remnants?]]
* How does time travel work in this show, exactly? In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime Out Of Time]] and [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday Legends Of Yesterday]], Barry goes back a day, merging with his past self in a form of MentalTimeTravel. However, in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E23FastEnough Fast Enough]], there are multiple versions of Barry at the same point of time. This second concept is further explored in season 2 with the idea of "time remnants" that both Barry and Zoom utilize, beginning with 2016!Barry coexisting with 2015!Barry in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E17FlashBack Flash Back]]. My initial thought was that if a speedster travels back only a day they merge with their past self, but anything longer like a year will cause them to coexist with their past self. However, ''that'' theory is shot down in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E23TheRaceOfHisLife The Race Of His Life]], when Barry creates a time remnant of himself by only going back seconds or even microseconds in time. So I'm quite confused. And man, don't even get me started on ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow''...
** The Speed Force is semi-sentient in its own right so it could be that speedsters either have some control over what they do when they travel back in time. Or the Speed Force itself can understand what they're trying to do.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How to get to Earth-3?]]
* In the season 2 finale, Zoom says that Earth-1 just so happens to be the hub for all of the universes, so that any of the other universes can be reached by Earth-1. However, later in the episode, the real Jay Garrick leaves with Harry and Jesse to Earth-2 so he can go back to Earth-3. Huh? How can Earth-3 be reached from Earth-2 when it's established that Earth-1 is the hub?
** Earth 1 may be the hub, but the breaches that exist there right now only connect to Earth 2. Once on Earth 2, Harrison Wells will be able to figure out a way for Jay to get to Earth 3, which is why Jay went with them.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry Allen is a billionaire.]]
* He owns STAR Labs. A company like STAR Labs would have patents worth billions of dollars generating revenue. We know that Thawne was making quite a bit of money based on his house. We know STAR Labs had government contracts. It's implied that STAR Labs is completely privately owned by Thawne, meaning that it's now completely owned by Barry. This means that Barry should be a billionaire. This completely shreds Wally's drag racing plot, since Barry should have been able to pay them off with his loose change. It does however aid with explaining how Barry's just causing millions in property damage with sonic booms down city streets, shattering hundreds of windows. STAR Labs is paying for it. But still, Barry's a billionaire and this hasn't been addressed.
** Barry hasn't really thought about it. Likely Caitlin or Cisco (my money's on the former) had already been at least familiar with the financial operation and has been handling it through Barry's heroics as well.
** The accelerator accident most likely saddled STAR Labs with enough liabilities to offset its assets. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they already declared bankruptcy and reorganized after settling all the lawsuits during Barry's coma. So while Barry may now be the owner of that corporation, its net value may be very low indeed. Also, just because STAR Labs ''might'' have money it doesn't necessarily mean that ''Barry'' does. A lot depends on how the corporation is structured, financed and run. It would be the kind of dick move a supervillain would pull to arrange things so that Barry has the resources to operate as the Flash but gets no personal benefit and a lot of headaches out of it.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: 5.3 mile running start versus dodging bullets...]]
* So, in season 1 episode 6, it's established that Barry needs a running start of at least 5.3 miles to hit Mach 1.1 (837 MPH, roughly 1,230 feet per second) and deliver a supersonic punch. So how the hell is he routinely able to dodge, intercept or CATCH bullets moving that fast or faster? Case in point, in season 1 episode 12, Peek-A-Boo's boyfriend fires at Barry with a Desert Eagle chambered in .357 Magnum, from a distance of maybe 15 feet, while Barry has his back to the shooter. That slug cleared the muzzle at no less than 1,250 FPS, and yet Barry is still able to react fast enough to prevent it from doing more than punching a hole in the collar of his suit and giving him a nasty flesh wound.
** He probably subconsciously uses the Speed Force to drain the speed from the bullets somewhat. Running speed and reaction speed are two entirely different things however. Nobody can run 100 mph, but fastballs can be hit, dodged and caught. Catching that bullet behind him was an extreme case that seems to break the skill barrier he had at the time but we should also compare this to Arrow. Catching arrows mid flight isn't even presented as particularly difficult if you've got the skillset in the first place, by comparison Flash only barely caught that bullet.
[[/folder]]
[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: Al Rothstein, victim of the Particle Accelerator?]]
* Back in "Power Outage", Thawne named Al Rothstein as a victim of the Particle Accelerator, but "The Man Who Saved Central City" establishes that this is not possible, as the Al Rothstein of Barry's earth was in Hawaii at the time. What the hell was Thawne talking about? It doesn't seem like this is something he'd bother to lie about. Did he sincerely believe Rothstein had been among the victims?
** Central City's a big town. It's possible there's more than one person named Al Rothstein.
** It's also possible (though unlikely) that Rothstein was injured but not killed by the explosion. More plausibly, he was a victim originally, but the effect's of the Season 1 Finale's TimeTravel shenanigans changed time very slightly so that he's not [[TimeTravelTenseTrouble anymore]].
** And it's also possible, and even probable, that Thawne was just being a jackass and instead of "honoring the dead", he was remembering and listing civilian identities of superheroes based around Central City in his original timeline.
** He wasn't in Central City at all during the accelerator explosion, so he couldn't have been injured by it at all. The best explanation is the above: That Thawne was remembering him as having been affected by the explosion in the original timeline.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Henry Allen not sticking around]]
* Barry finally proven his father's innocence and got him out of jail the legal way. Being reunited with his own father as a free man is what motivated Barry to become the man he was today. From being a forensic scientist to becoming the Flash, all that Barry has done was to find out who murdered his mother and get justice for his father. Now that both are resolved, what was the main reason Henry didn't feel like staying with his son in Central City?
** This might cross the line into WMG territory, but it's established that the Iron Heights prisoners know Henry frequently talks to the cops. He may have made enemies whose reach extends into Central City itself.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The newspaper and Westallen's future relationship]]
* Barry found out that him and Iris would be married in the future shortly before finding out that Eddie wanted to propose to Iris. Why, then, did Barry encourage Joe to give Eddie his blessing to marry Iris?
** It's probably as simple as him not trusting the paper to be accurate.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Barry and Iris in season 2 premiere]]
* Barry and Iris aren't together by the season 2 premiere, even though, with Eddie now gone, it's almost certain that they'll one day be married. They both have feelings for each other, and they both know about the newspaper, so have they both just been awkwardly ignoring the elephant in the room for the past 6 months?
** At this point nothing is truly certain. Time travel in Flash is different from most established cannons. Eddie committing suicide does retroactively erase Eobard Thawn. But Eobard Thawn being erased didn't retroactively erase him creating the particle accelerator or any of the results of that world changing event. Given that they have little reason to trust it. Plus Barry and most of the cast are smart enough to put together that that Thawn came from a future where Nora Allen wasn't killed and Barry has already changed history once as of S1. S2 starts by introducing the Multiverse so all bets are off.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Changing byline]]
* Early the series, the newspaper's text was different and said "Evan Gibson" on the by line. Did the future change slightly throughout season 1 as a result of things Barry did?
** They didn't change slightly, they changed drastically. We see just the change between Barry and Iris over the course of a single day of mostly minor changes. A full year of Barry Allen happening six years prior to when he should have must have had tons of differences. Makes you wonder how Team Arrow escaped in the original timeline...
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Love Interests]]
* Now that Barry knows that him and Iris will one day be married, I don't see why he would even bother dating, let alone letting himself fall for Patty. I guess this one currently remains to be seen though.
** He doesn't actually know this. He knows that there is a world where he and Iris marry but it may not be this one.
** He also knows that the future can be changed, as Eddie's sacrifice demonstrated, he would have done had his future self not stopped his present self from interfering with his mother's murder, and Eobard Thrawne telling Barry he arranged for Barry to get his powers six years before he should have (and as the audience knows from the changing story when Barry was depowered). So Barry--and Iris, now that she's in on the information--are aware that the future isn't fixed. The newspaper byline shows a ''possible'' future, not a certain one.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Discussing Barry's secret identity while anyone can hear]]
* In the beginning of [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E1TheManWhoSavedCentralCity "The Man Who Saved Central City"]], Joe, Iris and Cisco openly discuss the fact that Barry is the Flash ''while standing in the middle of a crowded police station!'' Seriously? Okay, the people around them looked kinda busy, but what if someone had stopped to listen to what they're talking about?
** That was kind of a problem last season, but that episode really highlighted it. Might be stupid if they keep it up.
** Of course, Iris and Barry have some VERY Flash-related conversations [[spoiler: while he's in Iron Heights. Maybe that's how the warden learned his secret?]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why do they give up on Ronnie so easily?]]
* Martin and Ronnie go into the swirly thing, separate as planned to break it up, and only Martin comes out of the swirly thing. Everyone instantly concludes he's dead and asks no questions and never tries to check or confirm or ''anything'' despite it being that ambiguous.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did Eobard Thawne predict his death?]]
* Why did Eobard think that he was dead when he made that recording for Barry? If things had gone according to plan Eobard would have gone back to the future and been just as ''gone'' as he is now. We don't see anything that suggests he had the means nor desire to kill Barry so long as he got to return to the future.
** Eobard is many things, but not stupid. And for all of his hatred of Barry, he still considers him something of a WorthyOpponent after the last 15 years. Eobard definitely considered the option that his plan could fail and he could die. He didn't expect it, nor did he plan for that to be the case, but he knew that was a distinct possibility. So he made that recording.
** That's not the question at hand. The recording was given to Barry because Eobard/Wells is dead. There is no body because he was erased. So he's dead because Team Flash told the police or whatever. That's what actually happened. His plan however was to return to the future. In which case he would be gone and Team Flash would be no more or less likely to tell the authorities that he died. He would still be out of the picture however. So why didn't he make a recording that said: "Well I got what I wanted I'm back in the future or maybe you got lucky and somehow killed me. I very much doubt that." That's the question, his plan involved him being unable to deliver this message personally ''either way'' yet he assumed he was dead. Why?
** If Wells had succeeded in going back to the future, why would Team Flash tell anyone he had died? Since they don't have a body, trying to convince people of his death would be both very difficult and very suspicious; better to just say he's gone missing, and they don't know why or where. I assume the only reason they ''did'' tell people about his death is because of the black hole; if anyone asks how he died or where his body is, they can just tell people he got sucked into the event horizon. Besides, Wells' plan was to return to the future ''and'' let Barry go back in time to save his mother; if Barry had gone through with his part of the plan, the timeline would have changed, Barry's father would never have been arrested, and Wells's recording never would've been made.
** Wells might have just said that he was dead on the off chance that someone not involved with Team Flash watched the video.
** The black hole is a convenient reason to declare him dead. Wells' recording may very well have still been made since Time Travel in Flash seems to do exactly what it wants because it wants. The death of Wells didn't retroactively undo the year of the Flash like it should have. Though the fact that the recording would have been worthless had that happened may come into play.
** Considering that Wells succeeding in going back to the future would have left similar circumstances to what happened after he was erased from existence, I assumed that he intended to kill Team Flash shortly before leaving; after all, why take chances? Hence, if Barry's seeing the video, he's still alive, which means Wells didn't win.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Why isn't the real Wells isn't, and the timeline restored?]]
* Eddie kills himself to prevent Thawne from being born, implying that Thawne couldn't then replace Wells, kill Barry's mother, move the time of the accelerator accident forward, or land Barry's father in jail, because Thawne never existed. The real Wells would still be in charge of STAR Labs, and Barry would not be the Flash, yet. Of course, if he did not remember all the events of season 1, Eddie has no reason to kill himself (unless Cisco explained it to him, perhaps). The rules of series do imply that you can change the timeline, and change everything associated with that change. But, they never imply that Eddie could cause Thawne to have never been born, without retroactively changing everything that Thawne did. Did the singularity suck plot holes into it?
** Time travel seems to work a weird way in this universe. If you want to change the past you have to travel back in time. Eddie killed himself in the present. The present made a 'checkup' and saw Eobard isn't supposed to exist in the future and erased it. But all Eobard did in the past stayed and all memories of it stayed. To prevent Eobard from killing Barry's mother and the real Wells, Eddie should have traveled 15 years back, BEFORE Barry's mother died and then killed himself. In a way it's a logical way to treat time travel since it prevents the paradoxes you mentioned.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:No mention of Deathbolt]]
* In 'The Man Who Saved Central City', when investigating Atom Smasher's identity, they pull up the records on Al Rothstein, and mention that he was in Hawaii on the night of the particle accelerator explosion, as if that rules out the possibility of him being a metahuman (aside from being, you know, dead). But then more importantly, in the next episode, when Joe is interrogating the Earth-1 version of Eddie Slick/(not-)Sand Demon, thinking that he is a metahuman. Joe finds out that Eddie wasn't in Central City on the night of the explosion either, and Barry says that Eddie must be lying. But why have they forgotten about Jake Simmons/Deathbolt, who proved that even people who were not in Central City that night could become metahumans? As far as I know, they never determined the source of Deathbolt's abilities, so it seems very premature to continue using the suspect's location on the night of the explosion as a litmus test for whether or not they can be a metahuman. Yes, it is true of the broad majority of metahumans, but they never know when another Deathbolt-like character could show up.
** Metahumans are still very rare, they may think Deadbolt was a freak isolated accident since so far on Earth-1 all other metahumans encountered can be linked to the particule accelerator accident.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Snart's broadcast]]
* Who is stopping Captain Cold's broadcast for Barry's ID?
** For now, it is a combination of being incarcerated in Iron Heights Prison [[spoiler: (and perhaps gratitude of saving Lisa from the thermite bomb implanted in her neck)]]. Season 2 Episode 3 could easily foreshadow Snart's path to heroics as seen in Series/LegendsOfTomorrow.
** But how is he doing it? S1EP16 ''Rogue Time'' has Barry threaten to zoom Snart off to his personal prison which would prevent him from telling people his ID. Snart then counters that if Barry did that Snart would be incapable of preventing his message from uploading. [[spoiler: With him in Iron Heights it seems improbable that he can get to a computer regularly.]] All the evidence still points to the fact that he didn't tell his sister or his partner.
** No, the threat was "If you give up my secret identity or kill people, there will be nothing stopping me from ending our game by dumping you in prison." Barry doesn't care overmuch about his secret identity.
** Incorrect. The exact exchange is here:[[http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=17487]]
--->'''Snart''': Can't really stop me now that I know who you are.\\
'''Barry''': I could speed you to my own private prison where you'll never see the light of day. \\
'''Snart''': You could, but then I won't be around to stop my own private uplink that'll broadcast your identity to the world.
** Two options: either Snart was bluffing about the private uplink when Barry confronted him about it (Doubtful) or for whatever reason, Snart disabled the uplink at some point between ''Rogue Time'' and ''Family of Rogues''. The latter seems more likely, judging by the fact that Snart is in prison and not threatening the use of the uplink to release Barry's identity to the world.
** Considering the way Snart thinks, and knowing Barry was actively trying to save his sister's life, it wouldn't be out of the question for him to have remotely disabled the upload just before the attempted heist.
** It's also possible that Snart informed Barry and the others where to find and disable the uplink shortly before getting arrested.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does Jay Garrick's helmet stay on?]]
* It doesn't appear to have straps or anything, so how does Jay's helmet stay on his head while he's running in superspeed?
** It's basically a UsefulNotes/WW1 helmet with wings welded on, so the straps grab the topmost part of the forehead and then around the base of the skull. you can see the backside straps when Jay is being knocked over by Sand Demon's bomb.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Sand Demon is not made of sand, or is he?]]
* In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E2FlashOfTwoWorlds "Flash of Two Worlds"]], Jay Garrick explains that Sand Demon's body isn't actually sand, his cells have just mutated to become hard and strong. But later on Barry defeats him with a lightning, because a lightning can turn sand into glass. However, a lightning wouldn't do that to human cells, even mutated ones, because they don't have the right chemical components. So is Sand Demon made of sand or not?
** Presumably his cells are ''technically'' human, but whatever makes him a metahuman causes them to function essentially the same as sand.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Iris is taking it well]]
* For someone whose boyfriend died six months ago, Iris seems to be handling it really well. A bit too well. Considering that the two were dating for about a year, you would think she'd be more affected than she seems. Barry seemed more affected than her. At least with Caitlin she was rather visibly affected losing Ronnie again.
** People react to grief differently. Barry is the type of person to angst over everyone he couldn't save. For Caitlin, it's also understandable to be upset after losing the one you love ''twice.'' Iris, on the other hand, seems to have been burying herself in her work so she doesn't have to think about it. It's also worth mentioning that every time Eddie's death is brought up, Iris seems to be holding back tears, so she isn't quite over it.
** People expressing excessive grief for over six months are possibly suffering depression or Prolonged Grief Disorder. [[RealityIsUnrealistic Getting over a death within a few months is entirely normal]].
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did something happen with Jason Rusch?]]
* Meta-headscratcher, but what happened with Jason Rusch? Not that Jax isn't an ideal partner for Stein, but why create a CompositeCharacter when they had one of the actual members of the Firestorm matrix from the comics? Was it just so they could have the whole Ronnie-Stein-Jason vibe even after Ronnie was gone? Or could they not get the actor again?
** In the Arrowverse, Ronnie was a highly competent and knowledgeable engineer and Jason Rusch is also a scientist. In the comics, part of the characterization of Firestorm was the combination of the older scientifically literate Martin Stein with the much younger athletic jock and okay but not exceptional student Ronnie Raymond. Using Jax allows that dynamic to be recreated.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How did Barry end up living with the Wests?]]
* Barry came to live with the Wests after his mother died and his father was sent to Iron Heights. Were there no living relatives of his, no grandparents, aunties, uncles or adult cousins he could've lived with? It just seems strange to me that the first person he gets sent to is someone to whom he isn't even related. It also kind of feels like just another way to delay Barry and Iris getting together, by making their relationship awkward because, to Iris (at least initially), they're LikeBrotherAndSister, but to Barry, they're NotBloodSiblings. This also never happened in the comics (NotThatTheresAnythingWrongWithThat).
** His parents specified that they wanted him living with the Wests? That's normally how it works in real life.
** Barry might indeed not have had any other relatives that could take him in. It's not unheard of. In which case after his dad went to prison he would have been given over to Central City child services who would be tasked with placing him in a foster home ASAP. Detective West likely volunteered right away to foster young Barry and the courts were all too happy to let him do so. A police detective with such a sterling record, plus previous experience as a parent, would be an ideal placement for an effectively orphaned young boy.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did Eddie [[spoiler: have to kill himself?]]]]
* Let's say you find out your descendant is a murderous sociopath. Couldn't Eddie erase Thawne from existence by NOT having children, or making sure that he and his other relatives raise their kids to be good people? Also, why is it a shock to Eddie that Eobard has the same last name as him? It's not far-fetched for two people to share the same last name in the same city.
** Thawne is not a common last name (or at least that way of spelling it isn't) for Americans to have. [[http://howmanyofme.com [=HowManyOfMe=].com]] says that less than 119 US citizens had that last name according to data from the 2000 census. Eddie therefore has reason to find it strange that someone he doesn't know has the name, because if so few people do, it's entirely believable that all of them living in the US are relatives of Eddie. Also, Eddie could've not had children, but he needed to erase Eobard from existence straight away, and killing himself was really the only thing he could think of on the spot that wouldn't take years to do and to thus prevent Eobard's existence. What baffles me, however, was that he could've married Iris on the spot to achieve the same outcome. Not only had Eobard revealed that he isn't related to Iris, but Stein, an ordained Rabbi, was right there when Eddie shot himself. Regarding the "making sure he and his relatives raise their children to be good people", he could've already done that in the other timeline and had Eobard still turn out evil, because Eobard is not Eddie's son, but a much more distant descendant, and something could've happened down the line after Eddie's death.
** Marrying Iris wouldn't have worked immediately either. Time travel here seems to work on the DelayedRippleEffect model, with bigger changes causing bigger and faster ripples. Eddie and Iris dating would have killed Eobard eventually, as the longer they stayed together the lower the chances of them splitting up and Eddie becoming Eobard's ancestor would be. Them getting married would accelerate that process. But the only thing that would stop Eobard right that second was Eddie killing himself, because there's no way out of that.
** Marrying Iris may not have worked ''at all''. Eddie wouldn't be the first man in history to cheat on his wife.
** Or divorce.
** 2015-2024 is also enough time for Iris to marry Eddie, birth a baby Thawne, have that marriage end and go on to wed Barry.
** All we (and our heroes) know about this part of the future is that 'Iris West Allen' was the credited writer of a newspaper article circa 2024. That name actually gives them very little. For all they know, it's someone with the same name or a misprint. Gambling the ancestry of their local supervillain on it would be pretty risky.
** Of course. But potentials are reduced. If Eddie never meets Iris, his chances of being Eobard's ancestor are quite high. If he dates her, the chances are reduced, because he might never meet the woman he's supposed to marry. If he marries Iris, those chances are further reduced. If they have a child together, even further. So on and so on until he's died of old age and never become Eobard's ancestor. The Reverse Flash stopped Eddie from proposing because it greatly reduced the chances of his timeline coming to exist, not because of any guarantees. That's why Eobard checked the future with Gideon every five minutes--because any time ''anything'' happened, something might have gone wrong with the future.
** First potentials are not reduced in any concrete way. We know nothing about who Eddie would have married. Maybe she was a friend of Iris that he originally met through Iris. Maybe she was an up and coming student who would graduate five years in the future and work at STAR labs. Time travel gets real wonky real fast. And the original question was about why did Eddie commit suicide rather than any number of other solutions to prevent Eobard from being born and that all boils down to he needed an immediate solution to a threat and he took a chance and it worked.
** Exactly, a split-second decision in a desperate situation. Had he thought about it further or had more time, he may have acted differently, but he didn't.
** IIRC, Reverse Flash literally ''had his hands around someone's throat''. The universe probably wasn't too interested in waiting to see what hypothetical situation or vow of celibacy Eddie was going to make. Killing himself was an ''instant'' solution to stopping Wells at ''that very moment'', not in ten years when his ancestor is supposed to be conceived.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Sudden elitism?]]
* What is with everyone's attitude towards Jax in "The Fury of Firestorm"? This kind of elitist "lol dumb kid just wasting his life" nonsense has never been foreshadowed in any of their personalities. I mean, Caitlin I can almost understand, since she sees Tokamak as a mirror of Ronnie, but she still kind of comes out of left field with the whole thing. It just feels like a lot of characters got clumsily derailed for AnAesop on not being a douche to someone when you don't know their story.
** Really, it was only Caitlin that showed a preference for Hewitt over Jax. Cisco and Stein couldn't have really cared less, and it was Barry that persuaded Caitlin to give Jax a chance. I also don't really think it was her displaying elitism as per se, it's just that she would have rathered Stein to fuse with someone that he shared common interests with, and someone that Caitlin wouldn't have to spend ages giving a "dumbed down" explanation of how the Firestorm matrix works. Also, like you said, Hewitt seemed much more similar to Ronnie than Jax.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Tokamak's beef with Team Flash doesn't make much sense.]]
* He wanted the power of Firestorm. After a delayed reaction, he gets the powers ''without having to share with anybody!'' Thanks are in order if anything, right? Yeah, I know he's got anger issues, but he got everything he wanted, only better.
** Powers drove his anger up like crazy, and there's also the ego. Some snot nosed punk got to be Firestorm instead of '''''HIM?!?!!?! THERE MUST BE RETRIBUTION!!!!!'''''
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why is Joe suddenly AbandonShipping Westallen?]]
* AsYouKnow, Joe has been a hardcore ShipperOnDeck for Barry and Iris for the last 15 or so years, to the point where he wouldn't give Eddie his blessing to propose to the latter. As has been implied, Joe really had nothing against Eddie other than the fact that Eddie was dating Iris when Joe wanted her to be with Barry. Now that Iris and Barry are both single again, and they both know that the other has more-than-platonic feelings for them, Joe just suddenly gives Barry his blessing to pursue Patty. Why? Note that in that same conversation, Joe told Barry that Barry would never feel the same way that he felt about Iris about anyone else. Also note that Eddie dated Iris ''and'' Joe knew Eddie before the latter was dating Iris for much longer than either Barry or Joe has currently known Patty. Why, then, did Joe detest the idea of Eddie and Iris being together, while now he's suddenly perfectly fine with Barry wanting to date Patty? Not only that, but Joe also didn't protest Barry dating Linda, and Joe didn't even ''know'' her!
** He hasn't given up on Westallen; he just knows that Eddie's death is still really weighing on both of them and in order to hash their feelings out, they'd have to talk about him which, neither of them are ready yet to do. He feels that Barry being with Patty will help heal him before he's ready to pursue Iris.
* Isn't it a little odd that he was rooting for his daughter and adoptive son to get together in the first place?
[[/folder]]
[[folder: No countermeasures against Dr. Light]]
* I find it strange that Barry doesn't even bother using sunglasses to protect his eyes from Dr. Light's super bright illumination. What's worse is that not once did he ever decide to put on some shades for his second and third encounter with Dr. Light. Did it occur to anybody at STAR labs that the Flash should be prepared for his any kinds of opponent the next time he fights them?
** Have you ever put on some sunglasses and looked directly into the sun before? It helps, but it still hurts. A lot. Doctor Light is specifically stated to possess the luminosity of a star. The only reason anybody can stand looking at the sun even with protection is because it's so far away. That close? I'm not sure there really is anything that actually can protect your eyes, rendering it a moot point. Frankly I'm surprised everyone in a several block radius doesn't just go permanently blind when she uses her powers.
** To the original problem just nobody thought of it. They don't tend to think of gizmos so much as they do (or more accurately Wells did) think of ways for Barry to fully utilize his power set. However a few major issues come up. No matter what Wells said Dr.Light is not harnessing the power of a star, her blasts are run of the mill energy blasts. At the very least they displayed little in the way of heat. Second, why didn't Barry just close his eyes or turn his head? She seems to have a charge up time that while it seems fast by our standards is absolutely nothing to a guy who can catch two bullets, then look around to make sure he hadn't missed one.
** Plus, even if S.T.A.R. Labs was able to craft lenses strong enough to block the light, the resulting darkness wouldn't allow Barry to see much else.
** I'd assume her fancy helmet/mask thing was to protect her own eyes, so he could've just worn that. But, I'd argue a more pressing problem is why he didn't just zoom off for a second so she didn't see him coming, then zoom back and knock her out before she saw him coming. There was no need to have a drawn-out hide-behind-cover fight the way they did.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why does Dr. Light want to kill Linda?]]
* When Dr. Light tries to kill Linda and replace her, she says that she's doing only because it's the only way she can hide from Zoom. How exactly would that work? Presumably Zoom has some method of tracking Dr. Light, because otherwise all it would take to hide from him is for her to change into civilian clothes and move to some other big city. And, since Zoom knows about the two Earths, presumably he also knows that people of Earth-2 have doppelgangers on Earth-1. So even if Dr. Light kills Linda and starts living as her, that wouldn't be enough to fool Zoom, and she should know it.
** It's true that when you think about it, that plan doesn't entirely work out, but it's one born of desperation and fear. That makes you think irrationally, so she probably hasn't thought it through. You see this sort of thing all the time in real life.
** Yes, these sort of things happen in real life, but ''The Flash'' is not in any way a realistic show, so ''someone'' should've noticed the obvious flaws in Dr. Light's plan. Barry is a smart guy, why doesn't he figure this out? When he comes to stop Dr. Light from killing Linda, he could've explained to her why the plan would never work, so that he could've persuaded her to help Team Flash to catch Zoom, without anyone getting hurt.
** What do we know about Zoom so far? Not much. Maybe Linda has a very good reason to kill her double to escape Zoom. And if not (beacause she is too stressed to think clearly) Team Flash doesn't have enough knowledge on Zoom to know it.
** It's more likely that Dr. Light wasn't thinking clearly: one of the most important aspects of KillAndReplace is that no one knows that you've killed that person. Walking into a crowded building in supervillain garb, while planning to murder your double in front of a dozen witnesses is rather counterproductive to ensuring that no one knows she's dead.
** Turns out her plan was to make Zoom think she was dead by leaving Linda's body for him to find. She admits this wasn't a good plan, just the best of a bunch of bad ones.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Clearing Wells' name]]
* Team Flash knew that the real Harrison Wells was dead and the Wells they were working with was Eobard Thawne. Cisco & Joe found the real Harrison Wells's corpse, so why wouldn't they use that to prove to the public that the Wells they know was an impostor. This would have been helpful, especially since Earth-2 Wells has come to Earth-1 but can't do much since he would have to hide from the authorities. Eobard made the confession as Harrison Wells. But given that the public knows about metahumans, would it be such a stretch for them to believe that he was an imposter from the future? Or at least say that Eobard impersonated Wells via shapeshifting or plastic surgery?
** Yes. Diggle over on Arrow mentions that a lot of people are still having problems with Metahumans, forget anything else. Team Flash probably didn't bother because originally it would do more harm than good. Wells was a "real" person to pin the death of Nora Allen on. Eobard Thawn hasn't even been born yet (and time travel shenanigans mean he never will). Without proof of how and when he did it, all sorts of other issues crop up. Like, can you give away Star Labs if you're an impostor? The existence of identical clones from Earth-2 is already causing some really annoying legal issues. Finally, listen to the way Team Flash talks about Eobard. To them, Eobard Thawn and Harrison Wells are the same person, not Eobard pretending to be Wells. When they talk about him they call him Wells. Cisco even finds it interesting that Earth-2 Wells has different musical tastes than a man Harry has no relation to at all.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry's facial hair]]
* Extreme and pedantic case of FridgeLogic here, so please bear with me. It's been established that Barry's powers cause his bodily processes and systems, such as his metabolism, to work at a much faster rate than muggles. Shouldn't he therefore have an almost permanent five o'clock shadow due to the speed at which his facial hair should supposedly be growing?
** If it was the case, then Barry should be constantly eating and drinking or suffer death by starving and/or dehydration. I assume that his metabolism is able to differentiate 'normal processing' (Hair growth, nail growth ...) and processing that happens when the body are in 'danger' (like being drunk and losing reflexes and coordination). The last ones happen at super speed to decreasing the amount of time Barry is in a sub-optimal state. So if Barry eats normally, he digests normally. But if he decide to eat sixty pounds of meat, his body will 'fast-digest' to avoid himself harming his stomach.
** [[AWizardDidIt Speed force.]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did Barry and Felicity kiss?]]
* Back in early season 1, Barry and Felicity decided to just be friends, acknowledging that, whilst they had chemistry, they were both in love with other people. They then proceeded to kiss ''on the lips'' in a non-platonic way, after which Barry leaves and the two seemingly pretend that it never happened. Did I miss something?
** I'd guess that kiss was their way of 'saying goodbye' or getting some kind of closure for the potential of their relationship. Just one, to acknowledge what could have been, before they go back to who they really love.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry's [[spoiler: broken spine]]]]
* Why did it surprise Caitlin that Barry couldn't feel his legs when he awoke after having the crap beat out of him by Zoom? He was apparently unconscious for quite a while. One would assume that, during that time, Caitlin would have performed numerous tests to determine the extent of Barry's injuries. Why, then, did she not already know about the condition of his spine?
** There was no reason for her to perform any tests. Barry got beat up, you get him some fluids and pain killers and lay him down.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Suit up, Harry]]
* Way back in season 1, Eobard Thawne travelled in time. It should have been a short trip: Go back, kill Barry, return to the new future, enjoy. And in Gorilla Warfare, we learn that he conveniently left another Reverse-Flash costume in another Reverse-Flash Ring that was conveniently found by Cisco when they needed Earth2-Wells to use it. How dumb is this ? Even if for some sort of reason (Fearing that he would need a new costume if the original is torn up) he created a new Reverse-Flash costume, there is not reason he left it behind when returning to its timeline. The confession video showed he is perfectly aware that Barry may decide to keep the timeline as it is, so there is no reason he left something as precious as a Ring to be reverse-engineering by Cisco or someone else.
** Ok, first off, that video indicated that Eobard was aware that something could possibly happen to him and he would die before his plan was completed, not that Barry would choose not to alter the timeline and stop him. Secondly, there was no reason for him to retrieve it at the end; if all had gone according to plan, everything Thawne had changed would've been undone, meaning the spare costume would no longer exist. Thirdly, even if all that wasn't the case, what makes you think Thawne would really care about leaving the spare costume behind? He spent the last 15 years screwing up the timeline, and the very reason he went back was to murder Barry before he became the Flash, potentially screwing up god-knows-what in his own time.
** Plus, I sincerely doubt that Barry could wreck any future plans Eobard has with a spare Reverse-Flash suit or a reverse-engineered ring that allows him to get his costume faster.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why didn't Zoom kill Barry as soon as he had him at his mercy? And how come he let Cisco shoot himself with a dart?]]
* There's no indication that Zoom has any kind of personal grudge against Barry, he just wants to get rid of all the speedsters. (And it would make little sense of him to have such a grudge, since a couple of months ago he didn't even know Earth-1 existed.) Before [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E6EnterZoom "Enter Zoom"]], he was perfectly fine with killing Barry by proxy (by sending metahumans to Earth-1 to do the job), so publically humiliating Barry clearly wasn't in his plan. So when he has Barry at his mercy, why doesn't he kill Barry immediately instead of running around the city and showing off in front of various Central City citizens? Since this kind of humiliation and making Central City scared of him wasn't in his original plan (when Barry was to be quickly killed by one of the other metahumans), why does he feel the need to do it now, even though it means taking the risk that Barry might come to his senses and escape? If he wanted to show Central City he's better than Flash, wouldn't it have been enough to kill Barry first, then flash his corpse in front of the journalists and cops? The effect would've been the same. Also, why did Zoom decide to kill Barry in front of his friends in S.T.A.R. Labs? Zoom knows that they have a weapon which might mess up his powers, so it's the worst possible place to show off. And if Zoom was able to catch the dart Wells shot, why couldn't he do the same with Cisco's dart? In both cases he was focusing on Barry, and the shot came as surprise to him, so why did he notice the dart the first time but not the second?
** We have to chalk it up to Zoom being both arrogant and sadistic. When all of Zoom's minions failed, he figured this Earth-1 Flash guy must be pretty tough. He apparently learns enough to know that he's the hero of Central City, and, angered that another speedster has gained such a powerful reputation, he sets out to make sure that the Flash is destroyed in a very public way. He might not have known that Barry was even still alive as he paraded him around the city. He did just shatter his spine, after all, which not a lot of people live through. He goes back to STAR Labs to give a final gloat to Harrison Wells and those who know the Flash the best, and in the process of mutilating his body by stabbing him, Barry makes a sound of pain, proving he is still alive. Relishing being able to murder Barry in front of his loved ones, he simply falls victim to the classic foible of EvilGloating, and Cisco is able to catch him off-guard. That's just my take on things.
** It might indeed be revealed later on that Zoom ''does'' hold a grudge against Barry when we find out Zoom's identity. It is also quite possible that he sends the Earth-2 metahumans to Earth-1 ''knowing'' that Barry will probably beat them, and simply enjoys killing (by proxy) for sport. If he's really that evil, I don't see why he ''wouldn't'' want to parade Barry's near-lifeless body around town. Zoom would also probably find it even more satisfying to kill Barry as his loved ones are ForcedToWatch.
** Confirmed that he's sending the metahumans through intending for Barry to defeat them because he wants Barry to get stronger and become a greater source of the Speed Force for Zoom to "feed" on.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How do most of the villains present a challenge to the Flash?]]
* Some of them have some sort of power that could conceivably be a half-decent counter to super speed, but for a lot of them there's no issue. The same is true for the police (mentioned above) who seem unable to shoot villains in the back just because they have an exotic weapon or superpower that is really no more useful than a pistol. It seems if you surprise Barry he might not be able to "turn on" his speed quickly enough (the same for Zoom in the case of Cisco's dart) but most of the time we don't have that excuse. Snart is one example. I seem to remember something about his cold gun lowering energy levels to the extent that Barry can't run as fast, but avoiding the gun itself should be child's play for the man who catches Joe's bullets after he fires at the Earth-2 Wells with little warning. By the same token, I don't see how Oliver Queen is any use to Barry in a fight. Speed ought to beat everything. I'm guessing this is addressed somehow in the comics, if anyone knows?
** Honestly, this has been a problem in the comics, as well as pretty much any media portraying superheroes: If they really cut loose, someone like Flash should be able to incapacitate pretty much every one in his Rogue's Gallery in one blow, with only other speedsters and guys with super strength (ie, Atom Smasher or Girder) being able to pose any sort of physical threat to Barry. That's why the comics enforce the "No-killing rule" and it's the same here. Really, Barry's probably holding back subconsciously, lest he accidently kill his enemies (I know he has in the show, but it's not his first resort). Plus, the Flash has always been a person to see the good in everyone, so he's more likely to offer redemption before resorting to physical violence. But in answer to your question: if you pay close attention, you'll see that most of the Flash's enemies aren't posing a direct threat to him, but everyone else. They use that to their advantage, targeting civilians, police, his friends and family, before blindsiding him with clever use of their powers. It's why Snart was such a threat in his intro episode; he put civilians in harm's way in order to catch Barry by surprise.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:"You really think that leopard's gonna change its spots?"]]
* Over the course of the series, Leonard Snart has: killed a guy right in front of Barry, derailed a train full of people, taken Caitlin hostage, left her in a death trap, taken Cisco hostage, tortured his brother to make him give up the Flash's identity, betrayed Barry when Barry dealt with him in good faith, claimed that Barry owes him for keeping him safe when he wouldn't have been in danger if Snart hadn't betrayed him, and justified the whole thing with "I'm a criminal and a liar and I hurt people." And that's just the stuff Barry was personally involved with. And yet Barry thinks there's good in Snart and he secretly wants to reform because he loves his sister? What? Yes, yes, Barry likes to see the good in people, but he's never said anything like that to ''any'' other criminal, no matter what their motivations.
** Honestly, this bugged me too, but for different reasons: it's not like Barry's treating Snart as a special case, as he's offered redemption to several other members of his Rogue's Gallery, and even to those who he hasn't, he still often empathises with what they're going through. The main thing that bugs me is that everyone seems to treat Snart as redeemable because he's stopped killing people after making that deal with Barry[[note]] before murdering his father, anyway [[/note]], while ignoring the fact that he casually murdered Deathbolt in [[IncrediblyLamePun cold blood]], because (and I quote) "He owed [Snart] money." I know Deathbolt wasn't a saint, but everyone just seems to have forgotten about this, including Snart himself. Frankly, they have no reason to trust him, as he's broken every single agreement he's made with Barry.
** Good point about Deathbolt. There's a reasonable argument to be made that he actually did that in defense of Barry's life (he could hardly admit it to the other villains if so, after all), but he wouldn't have ''had'' to if he hadn't betrayed Barry in the first place. That's definitely a violation of the deal. And I really do think Barry's treating Cold differently. Who else has he tried to get to reform? The closest I can think of is trying to talk down Blackout, who hadn't done a quarter of what Cold has. He tried to make a deal with Dr. Light on practical grounds, he sympathized with Girder once he was dead and not before...seriously, who has he ever talked like this to? Am I forgetting someone?
** No, [[Literature/{{Discworld}} but he might change his shorts.]]
** In answer to metahumans he's tried to talk down (besides Blackout): if I remember correctly, Barry tried to get Multiplex to give up his rampage, and he did openly sympathize with Peek-a-Boo. As for the others, by the time he encountered them, they had already proven that they were just killing people for the hell of it, so there was no reason to negotiate with them. But in regards to Cold being treated differently to Barry's other enemies, if you pay attention to his first couple of episodes, Barry ''doesn't'' treat him like a special case, he treats him like the criminal that he is. It's only when Cold manages to learn the Flash's identity that Barry attempts to offer him a deal by appealing to Snart's ego (and that's only because Snart was threatening to reveal Barry's identity to the world). And really, he turns to Snart for help with the metahumans not because he trusts him, but because he's desperate for help. Even when Lisa comes to them for help, they still see Snart as a selfish asshole. It's only when they learn how bad Lewis Snart was (and Lisa's recounting of how her brother was the only one there for her), that Flash really starts to see Cold as redeemable.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Who owns the copyrights of a real hero ?]]
* So, [[spoiler: Oliver's child]] is playing with a "Flash" action figure. In this world, Flash is not a fictional character. And it seems unlikely he revealed his identity to get royalties. I just don’t see how this toy could exist without starting a court battle to see who is authorized to make that kind of toy and who doesn’t.
** Court battles require someone to sue. Barry clearly doesn't care, and it's not like he has an agent.
** Point is, if the Flash doesn't care to sell its image, NO Flash toy should exist. The fact that someone doesn't want to sell his image doesn't allow others to steal it. Especially since those kind of image stealing often lead to toys with choking hazard elements, lead painting, low quality and using said image to promote ideas not shared by the real Flash (like 'Buy our toy The Flash, The Flash thinks white people are better than black people. If you agree with him, help him by buying his Action Figure.")
** This is a problem some people have when they refuse to deal with copyright at all. Bill Watson, of ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'', famously refused to get involved, which is why you can find car stickers of Calvin doing everything from peeing in the gas tank to praying in front of a cross. Barry ''could'' make an issue of this, but until he does (or until someone does something really stupid like try to use him to promote racism), they can get away with it.
** Who in their right minds would make an unauthorized toy version of a ''supervillain'' and expect it to go well? William had a Captain Cold action figure as well. It also gets into the murky area of "Son of Sam" laws that are designed to prevent convicted criminals from cashing in on their notoriety.
** The city sells Flash merchandise (such as T-shirts) during its official Flash Day. Maybe they're the ones making the toys. Barry (as The Flash) may very well have given them permission for that, though the villains presumably haven't.
** If Barry wanted to, he could certainly take the toy company to court for using his likeness without his permission and win big. But to do that, he'd have to appear in court ''as'' Barry Allen and publically announce he's the Flash; the courts don't allow you to sue someone anonymously. So as long as Barry wants to maintain his secret identity, he has no legal recourse against anyone making Flash merchandise.
** Let's face it: It's [[{{Adorkable}} Barry]] [[AscendedFanboy Allen]] we're talking about. If someone approached him (as The Flash) saying "Hey, we want to make an action figure of you," he would probably be {{Squee}}ing on the inside. Doesn't he seem like the kind of guy who played with such action figures when he was a kid? As for Cold, assuming he is aware of the action figures' existance, he probably doesn't give a shit. The guy has bigger concerns than who is making toys of him, like running his criminal empire, for example.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Hawk ages]]
* In the Flash-Arrow Crossover, we learn that the Hawks (Hawkgirl and Hawkman, currently [[spoiler: Cisco's girlfriend Kendra, and a guy named Carter]]) have been reincarnated 207 times in roughly 4000 years, [[spoiler: and are murdered brutally in each life]]. This puts their average lifespan at around 19 years old.
** This may fall into ExactlyExtyYearsAgo. The RealLife Khufu actually lived a little over 4500 years ago; if they lived almost the same amount of time in each life, they would have lived to around 23 years. Not much better, but better. However, they probably didn't live the same amount in each life. Continued directly below.
** This actually combines NightmareRetardant with NightmareFuel. The ancient world was ''much'' smaller than the modern world, and so it would have been much easier for Savage to find the Hawks back in Old Kingdom Egypt than in the 19th or even 15th centuries. It is entirely possible that for a few dozen lifetimes Savage found them comparatively quickly (say, around 15 years), but after that it became harder and harder as the world grew – though the Internet would obviously have allowed him to find them much more quickly in this current incarnation. It's even possible the Hawks lived into adulthood or even old age in some lifetimes, depending on who they were born as (though that gets into WMG).
** Also note that Savage had to get around by mundane means, as covertly as possible, and slowly because he doesn't seem to have much in the way of resources so he can simply buy a ticket and travel openly (and by the quickest means). He was stowing away on a ship, the slowest form of intercontinental travel. Meanwhile the Hawks were being elsewhere when he had to kill them. There's also no indication of how soon he becomes aware of their presence when they reincarnated. He might only have a vague direction unless he's very close until they fully awaken. If they happen to reincarnate in the same region, he can probably track them down and kill them as children, or even infants. If they're born on another continent, he might have to wait until they release their powers before he can find them, and who knows at what age that might be.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Is Barry a virgin?]]
* Not that it's really relevant, but is he (as of Season 2, episode 8)? We only really know of one girlfriend that Barry had before Linda, Becky, but that was back when he was in high school. Then, him and Linda got cockblocked that one time, and at the moment him and Patty seem to be taking things quite slow. Hopefully I'm not the only person who has wondered this.
** A) If you have a steady girlfriend/boyfriend in high school, it's quite common to have sex with them; B) you can lose your virginity without having a steady boyfriend/girlfriend; C) sexuality is not an important theme in ''The Flash'', there aren't really any references to ''anyone's'' sex life, so the fact that Barry's isn't discussed doesn't mean anything.
** As of 2.10, he's pretty clearly not.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: So, does Team Flash think that Zoom can see what happens on the other side of the dimensional breaches?]]
* Now, I realize that [[spoiler: Zoom only sent metahumans after Barry to make him stronger so there would be more Speed Force to feed on.]] My question relates to that scene where Barry and Linda stage a fight between The Flash and Dr. Light to get Zoom's attention. As far as they know, Zoom has requested Barry's emblem as proof of his defeat (which is probably just part of his ruse because of the spoiler information mentioned above). Based on that knowledge, there is really no reason for them to assume that Zoom can see what happens on Earth-1 (if he could, he could check whether The Flash had been defeated without requiring a BattleTrophy as proof), so why do they even trouble themselves to fake a fight when they can just take the Emblem off of his costume and throw it through one of the breaches?
** Fact is no one in Team Flash really knows what access Zoom has to our world. For all they knew, Zoom could have hidden surveillance cams near portals. And the "Send the Flashs symbol" could be a safeguard (Only the villain from Earth-2 knew about it, so if team Flash staged a fight using a villain's double. The double wouldn't sent back the badge, so Zoom would know it's a trap.).
** ''[[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E15KingShark King Shark]]'' makes it clear why Zoom didn't show up: he was probably well aware of what the team was up to since he hangs around the lab on a regular basis.
** That wasn't Zoom. Probably. There are at least two men with Jay Garrick's face, and the one who's been helping Team Flash isn't Zoom. Zoom was even carrying Jay's body when he was unmasked to make it clear that they're two different people and not speed clones. Zoom might have stopped by once or twice to spy, but he definitely wasn't doing the same as Reverse Flash last season.
** Its been confirmed the Jay we've been seeing all season was Zoom, so yeah.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:How much Eobard Thawne knew about Earth-2?]]
* At the end of season 1, Eobard Thawne saw Jay Garrick's Helmet and told the heroes it was his 'cue to leave'. Does that mean Thawne knew about Earth-2, and in that case how? He changed the timeline so that Barry could become the Flash 5 years earlier. Meaning that in the original story, Zoom killed Jay Garrick without any dimensional portal coming to the rescue. If somehow Thawne travelled to Earth-2, he may have met Zoom but not Garrick.
** There's no evidence that time traveling in one universe could affect the timeline of another universe, seeing as the timelines of both aren't exactly the same[[note]] The STAR Labs of Earth-1 was founded in 2000 (both before and after Eobard changed the past), while the STAR Labs of Earth-2 was founded in 1991 [[/note]]. At any rate, Eobard may have encountered Jay Garrick at some point, but not necessarily the Jay Garrick of Earth-2, considering the very nature of the Multiverse.
** Given the nature of the multi-verse he may very well have come into contact if not with Jay specifically still speedster who wore that helmet. Virtually nothing is known about how alternate universes and time travel interact in the Arrowverse so there may have been no "originally" Zoom vs Jay. This could be the only way it ever played out. At the very least it's implied that Zoom knows about the multiverse since Jay mentions he wants to be the only speedster. So unless Earth 2 was filled with Speedsters once and Zoom hunted them all down or he's been hopping around doing this for a while. He apparently never stumbled over Earth 1 in the original timeline since Eobard (who had no reason to lie about this) claims that he and Flash were evenly matched. Even if we accept that he tried to kill baby Barry because he was the weaker of the two it's still described as a genuine battle. Current Barry was losing to Eobard but not being utterly curbstomped which leads to Zoom utterly crushed Barry. A gap in power that high would easily have allowed him to beat Eobard and/or most likely Future Barry.
** Alternatively he knows about Zoom. Zoom is a big deal and he knows enough about Flashes in general to see that come popping through, believe it means a Flash just died and wants to avoid an opponent he cannot defeat who wants to kill him.
** Perhaps when Eobard says it's "his cue to leave," he's not concerned about the significance of the helmet, but that objects as large and heavy as the helmet are coming through the breach; it might indicate some quantum physics junk is going on and the breach will close shortly. (Although, to be honest, I'm a bit more curious about Eobard's off-hand reference to Rip Hunter).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why can't Jay go back and forth between Earth 1 and Earth 2]]
* At the start of the season when Team Flash needed knowledge on Earth 2 and Zoom and Jay was being setup as a mentor to Barry it made sense for him to stay on Earth 1, but since Wells from Earth 2 came he basically filled not only filled the Earth 2 knowledge broker and can teach Barry some new tricks with his speed that even Jay doesn't know there doesn't seem like there is much for Jay to do. As the season as progressed it is becoming more apparent that the writers are struggling to give Jay more to do beyond opposing Wells reckless ideas (while not having Jay give any alternatives to the team). Why can't Jay go back to Earth 2 to investigate Zoom or ask for some of his friends help (wasn't implied to have known other heroes?) then hop back and forth between the two Earths? It seems like a better idea to keep Jay useful, while not having the character being a series regular.
** I was under the impression that they knew how to send him to Earth 2, but not how to bring him back.
** Turns out, he has been. WordOfGod after ''[[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E15KingShark King Shark]]'' aired was that the Jay under the Zoom mask is indeed the Jay people have been seeing all season.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Joe, Francine and Wally]]
* In 2x03, Joe says to Iris that Francine was a cop's wife and knew how to stay hidden. Then in 2x09, he tells Barry that was a lie to save his pride - that he just never went looking for her. So which one is it? Because if it's the first one, then even though Wally has reason enough to be mad at both of his parents, it makes sense to be slightly more mad at Francine than Joe because he never knew anything. But if it's the second one, then Wally has every right to be mad at Joe for not looking, especially since he's been living in ''Keystone City'' this whole time. I mean, I feel it's understandable for Wally to be angry with Joe anyway, because his mother is dying and he has to race cars to pay her hospital bills when Joe and Iris seem to be doing fine, but I'd like to know who told who what.
** Since Joe admitted he lied the first time, presumably it's the second one.
** Almost definitely the second. She may have known how to stay hidden but she was a druggy and Joe even as a cop has extremely limited legal measures he can use to compel her to do anything she's not in the mood for. Wally is pissed because he's a teen in a crappy situation. Joe didn't know he existed and even through his anger I suspect Wally knows that if Joe had even suspected he had a son that he would have moved heaven and Earth to find him. Instead when his druggy wife ran off for the nth time he decided to focus on Iris and shortly thereafter on Iris and Barry.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's age]]
* How old is this woman? We find out early on that she has a triple joint degree in Biology, Chemistry and Physics, and that she graduated from the police academy a few months ago. Given that we heard that Barry is 25 in the pilot, I'd put her at the same age. But then we find out that she and her father owned a shoe shop, and the reason her father is dead is because a pre-Weather Wizard Mark Mardon robbed it while she was out with her friends after school. I'm assuming that would put her in high school, but she says that Mardon killed her father a few months before he got powers - which, if we're going with the timeline of the show, was around 2 years ago. If all that info we got is correct, Patty is 19-20 on the show, but managed to get a triple joint degree and graduate from the police academy in two years, which beggars belief even for this show. I could be wrong and missed something, but I'm just so confused!
** She was obviously out with her friends after her classes at college.
** I don't remember her saying that the incident occurred a few months before Mardon got his powers. However, in a deleted scene from the mid-season finale, she mentioned that her father died when she was 17, so it's plausible to think she still could've been in either her last year of high school or first year of college then. Then, in the actual episode, she says that her father died 4 years ago, making her 21. I'm Australian so I don't know how the tertiary education system works in the US, but here it is possible (albeit difficult) to complete a science degree with 3 majors in 3 yrs. Her being able to do so can be put down to Patty being the intelligent nerd that she is, and her starting college at age 17. This would make her 20 when she graduated college. It can then be assumed that she joined the police academy shortly afterwards, and I think that takes a year (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), making her 21 when she graduated from that and then joined the CCPD. Therefore, she is currently either 21, or she might have just turned 22.
** Right, that makes sense. I think I was working off that deleted scene, so they must have deleted it because it contradicted what they said earlier, I guess? Because then it would make sense that her father was killed and then Mardon got powers a few years later, and that she had been following him since her teenage years.
** Okay, (I don't mean to create natter, so I'm sorry if this sounds like it) so are you saying that she's actually probably closer to Barry's age and by "school" she really meant "college"?
** Most likely.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Disposition of the Turtle]]
* Why is the Turtle locked up in the Pipeline? Season 1 established that running a secret supervillain prison under STAR Labs is morally, legally, and practically a terrible idea, which is why there is now a metahuman prison wing for this very situation. As unethical as imprisoning Hewitt in the Pipeline was in 2.4, it was at least established as a temporary measure until he agreed not to tell anyone their identities. But the Turtle doesn't know anything about their identities--or he didn't until they all decided to assemble in front of him--so why didn't they hand him over to the police? Did Patty not notice that her abductor was never arrested? Of course, the underlying reason for this is presumably so that [[spoiler: Harrison could easily murder him]], but that's...''really'' not a justification.
** They locked the Turtle in the Pipeline because they believe that his power is the key to countering Zoom's speed. They wanted to study and hopefully replicate the effects, therefore they need him close by so they can have regular access to him. It would kinda difficult to get regular access if he was locked up in Iron Heights. Presumably, once they were done with him, the Turtle would've been turned over to the proper authorities, but [[spoiler: Harrison made sure that that wouldn't happen.]]
** It's also mentioned that the Turtle has been evading the authorities for quite some time now, so Patty and the others from the CCPD probably just think that he got away again.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's [[spoiler: reason for leaving]]]]
* Patty says that she's leaving Central City to study to become a CSI, her dream job that she never ended up pursuing after she joined the CCPD to honour her father. However, she said several episodes earlier that she studied a science degree in which she triple majored in biology, chemistry and physics. Why didn't she just study to become a CSI from the get-go? Is she talking about getting a masters degree? Someone who is familiar with how science degrees in the US work please enlighten me.
** The reason why she became a cop in Central City is because she wanted revenge against Mark Mardon/Weather Wizard for killing her father. Remember, now that Mardon's in jail, she's finally got justice for her father's death (although she did try to pull the trigger on Mardon back in the Christmas episode). With that being resolved, Patty has no other reason to stick around in Central City, so she can finally move on and get her dream job as a CSI.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Did Iris believe Barry?]]
* When Barry's mother died, did Iris believe that Henry was innocent? I don't think it's ever outright stated, but there seems to be evidence pointing to both answers. For example, Henry has said, I think more than once, that Barry was the only one that ever believed in his innocence. However, Iris I'm sure also had some sort of WhatTheHellHero moment towards Joe in the pilot when Joe tried to talk some sense into Barry and convince him that his father was guilty. There's also the fact that Iris believes that Barry is a bad liar, plus he only ever kept one secret, the fact that he loved her, from her before he became the Flash. I'm sure you can see my confusion.
** I think she probably did believe him simply because, like you said, Barry has never lied to Iris apart from those two times. Besides, the whole reason everyone started believing in Barry as the Flash was ''because'' she believed in impossible things. Maybe Barry didn't tell Henry because Iris was just another kid like Barry? Or he may have thought that Henry would see it as Iris only saying she believed him about Henry because they're best friends.
** This doesn't really have anything to do with Barry's honesty so much as what Barry chooses to believe about his father though. It's not a lie if your information turns out to be incorrect that's just you being wrong so Iris's ability to tell if he's lying has no bearing. The question here boils down to what did Joe actually think vs what was he telling a child and eventual young man so he wouldn't waste his life trying to get a guilty man out of jail (in his opinion) or did he believe Henry to be innocent. Given what interactions we see between Joe and Henry it seems safe he always had his doubts. Which means Iris, smart woman and girl that she is and was probably defaulted to Barry is right.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Everyone has a doppelganger?]]
* Earth 1 and Earth 2 are not identical twins. While it's not 100% clear what the characters know we as viewers know that on Earth 2 Oliver Queen died with the Queen's Gambit. Our Harrison Wells died 15 years prior to the main story. Without Barry becoming the Flash it's probable that Nora Allen survived. So we know the doppelgangers are not tied to each other. As in dying on Earth 1 means nothing on Earth 2 and vice versa. More to the point (despite how frequently it happens in fiction) names aren't planned out. As happened with Jay, your doppelganger could have a different name because of something as silly as your Earth 2 Mom being a huge fan of Star Wars and naming you Luke instead of Bruce because your Mom loved Batman. I understand looking and hoping because that's what you do, but not the outright refusal to accept that things weren't identical seems wrong based on differences they have to know about such as who has super powers.\\
This just makes no sense. In "The Reverse Flash Returns" Caitlin and co. are sure Jay has an Earth 1 double. The show seems to run on (and this seems confirmed by previews showing Earth 2 Caitlin, Ronnie, and Barry) the idea that everyone on Earth 1 has doubles on Earth 2. Except we've seen Earth 2. We know it has a vastly altered timeline and world, with a War of the Americas, Gorilla City, different technology and aesthetics. That clearly means that not everyone would have the same relationships, due to early deaths, or just different circumstances from past changes in Earth 2's history. A few doubles makes some sense. But ''everyone'' having a double? It's FridgeLogic and a serious headscratcher.
** This is especially true because they know that Jesse doesn't have an Earth-1 doppleganger due to Earth-1!Harrison Wells and Earth-1!Tess Morgan dying before they could conceive her.
** How is the fact that an AlternateUniverse is different yet similar to another, a headscratcher exactly? To borrow a phrase from VideoGame/BioShockInfinite; there are constants and variables. Considering the very nature of the multiverse, not only is it very possible for there to be a variation of Earth with the type of divergence yet similarities to Earth-1, there '''must''' be a version that's exactly like that. As for why Team Flash assumes that the doppelgängers of Earth-2 have similar names, histories, and appearances to their Earth-1 counterparts? Chalk that up to Occam's Razor mixed with a bit of confirmation bias: Besides Zoom, Harry and Jay, every metahuman from Earth-2 that they've met had a counterpart with the same name as their Earth-1 counterpart, so logically, if you're searching for an Earth-1 double of someone from Earth-2, (ie, Jay Garrick), you try to find someone with the same name. If that fails, well, back to the drawing board.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: You can't change the past, except sometimes you can?]]
* In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E11TheReverseFlashReturns "The Reverse Flash Returns"]], Dr. Wells says that killing Reverse Flash won't stop Barry's mother from dying, even though this version of Eobard Thawne hasn't done it yet, because that event is already in the past, so it's a fixed point that can't be altered. Later on this idea is reinforced when Cisco starts to fade out: since Eobard already caused him to get his powers in the past, that is also fixed point which must be allowed to happen to avoid a paradox. But in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime "Out of Time"]] Barry traveled to the past and changed it without any repercussions, and the same thing happened later in [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday "Legend of Yesterday"]]. So apparently in the Series/ArrowVerse you can't change the past, except when the plot demands so?
** If you take LegendsOfTomorrow into account the following is true. Time is like concrete, it takes a while to set and become fixed. In both cases quoted here Flash went back ''during'' the event in question a tidal wave and large scale explosion respectively. They didn't even have a chance to finish much less become set in the time stream. Eobard here raises an entirely different problem in that he exists and yet doesn't. Eobard's changes remained in place because they were 'fixed' in time, so why did Eddie's suicide actually kill Eobard who should have been similarly fixed. Clearly it failed to do its intended purpose of wiping him out entirely. I think it's clear that in the Arrowverse time travel does what it wants because fuck you that's why.
** It could just be that it was an attempt to stop [[ArtisticLicensePhysics ignoring physics]]. Erasing a person from the timeline would mean [[NoConservationOfEnergy violating the Law of Conservation of Energy]].
** One interpretation is that it depends on the length of time between the change and the original event. The changes mentioned above (the tidal wave, the explosion, the alterations made to the past in Legends) were all short-term: The Tidal Wave would have hit less than a day after the moment Barry traveled back to, the explosion was only hours later, Ray's suit likely wouldn't have taken very long for Savage to replicate, and the event at which Martin Stein was to meet his future wife was the same night as the event that stopped it from happening. It could be that these events would take less time to become "fixed" than Eobard's birth, which was ''years'' in the future. This would explain why Eddie's suicide would still affect him. However, the circumstances of Eddie's death create a TemporalParadox, so a version of Eobard had to be left behind in history so that the events of Season 1 could still happen (that may not make a lot of sense, but call it the [[AWizardDidIt the influence of the Speed Force]] if it helps.)
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why does Zoom need Harry's help?]]
* We see that Zoom is blackmailing Harry to force him to help steal Barry's speed. While it makes for good drama, it's unclear why exactly he needs Wells' help in the first place. In the flashback to his fight with Jay, Zoom seemed perfectly capable of stealing another speedster's speed on his own, and pretty quickly at that. Why go through the trouble of blackmailing Wells when he's shown to be perfectly capable of stealing speed himself? Is there some reason he was able to steal Jay's speed on his own but can't steal Barry's? The only explanation at the moment is that he's just doing it ForTheEvulz.
** Explained as of "Welcome to Earth-2". [[spoiler:Zoom didn't steal Jay's speed. Turns out [[DrugsAreBad a side-effect of]] [[FantasticDrug the Velocity drug]] is [[DePower power loss]].]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why do they keep referring to Reverse Flash as "the other Wells"]]
* They keep acting and speaking as if Reverse Flash was this earth's Wells, when they know perfectly well that they've never actually met him. He died a long time ago. It's incredibly strange when they talk to Earth 2 Wells as if he were Reverse Flash's doppleganger. He's the doppleganger of a man they've never met.
** While Thawne wasn't born as Earth 1's Harrison Wells, he did live as Wells for 15 years. As far as most of the world is concerned, Thawne ''was'' Wells.
** That doesn't answer the question, though. Unlike most of the world, the protagonists know the guy they worked with wasn't Wells but Eobard Thawne. And yet they keep making comparisons between Eobard and Earth-2 Wells, as if he's merely an Earth-2 version of the person they knew, even though he's not.
** When you spend at least several months with someone calling them something, it's gonna stick in your mind. To them, he was Wells, even if he just stole the identity.
** This consistently bothers me too. It's like the writers keep forgetting that Earth-1 Harrison Wells was a distinct entity from Eobard Thawne. It's incredibly disrespectful in-universe also, that the innocent guy who died a very painful death and had his identity stolen, is attributed to all the horrible stuff that happened.
** Earth 1 Wells is also a man none of the main cast ever met, he died while they were children. It cannot be stressed enough that for all intents and purposes his name was Wells not Eobard. For fifteen years nobody called him any different or knew any different. What actually odd in universe is that Wells and Eobard DO have such similar personalities despite being utterly unrelated people. Nobody else seems to be particularly close to their doubles.
** Because Eobard based his Wells impersonation on his earlier (from his point of view) meeting with Harry.
** Not really. Earth 1 and Earth 2 Wells are very different, and I don't see Earth 2 Wells and Eobard as particularly similar, aside from in the very superficial. Tina [=McGee=] also noted that Wells changed a great deal when he was replaced.
** Personally, if I knew a guy who turned about to be someone else completely, and then someone who looked and was ''extremely'' similar to the person who was impostered, I'd say "The other (blank)." I'd stop after because of how disrespectful it is, but point still stands.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why did the masked man use the knocking code?]]
* He could've easily used his fingers to make the motions of letters, and it'd have been faster too.
** That's a little harder to do. I have done that, and many people have problems understanding it. His knocking is probably best, and is actually better than Morse code, because Zoom may know Morse, but has no idea of the knocking idea.
** Zoom knowing Morse Code is pretty meaningless since he's not pants on head retarded. He clearly knows that masked man is trying to communicate when he gets back. Morse Code also has the additional benefit of being more widely known than Prisoner's Knock. If you're trying to communicate quickly you want to use the most universal system you can find.
** The knocking code was developed by prisoners because they don't need to watch, or even see, each other in order to pass messages.
** That's not really relevant here though, because the masked man's mask has eyeholes, so he can see the Flash and Jesse, and he knows they can see him too. And as pointed out above, as soon as Zoom gets back he would realize the knocks were a code, even if he wouldn't necessarily recognize that particular code. So the masked man could've used any code he wanted while Zoom was away.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:No biological function on Earth-2?]]
* OK, Barry was kept prisoner for less than a day so I give a pass, But Jesse and Iron Mask are prisonners for months, and I failed to see how they can do ... err ... basic natural evacuation. In the same way, how can the Iron Mask eat ?
** Obviously, Zoom brings a bucket. Which is hilarious to think about. He's probably an evil maid for them.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Shouldn't Earth-2 Iris be pissed off at Earth-1 Barry?]]
* Think about it from Iris' point of view: Earth-1 Barry kidnaps her husband, locks him in a closet, and pretends to be him, right down to kissing her and all. It was because Deathstorm and Killer Frost are searching for Earth-1 Barry that Iris' dad gets killed, so he's partially responsible for that. And when Earth-2 Joe is on his deathbed and saying his final words to his "son-in-law", Barry ''still'' keeps on pretending. He could've easily used his super-speed to get Earth-2 Barry there, so at least Joe would've had the chance to talk to his real son-in-law before his death. But when Iris learns all this, there's no reaction at all. Admittedly they had bigger things to consider at the moment... But at the end of the episode, when she finally has a chance to talk to Earth-1 Barry, it's just tearful goodbyes, and Iris isn't the slightest bit mad at Barry for the awful things he did. What the heck?!
** I agree that maybe Iris should have been more mad at E1 Barry, but I'm looking at it as a combination of understanding the magnitude of what was going on because of the threat of Zoom, since he is actually a resident of ''her'' earth, not theirs, and the writers not having enough time. They had to fit in E2 Iris finding out the truth, teaming up with Harry and Cisco, finding Killer Frost and rescuing everyone, before going back to their earth, as well as all the stuff on E1 with Geomancer. The writers probably thought an emotional goodbye would be better than Iris being upset with Barry for the impersonation. Plus, from the way that everyone had on those metahuman alert bracelets in the bar, it looked like people are more used to metahuman attacks than our people, so normal people being killed seems like a more regular occurrence.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Patty's exit]]
* Upon doing a rewatch, Patty's last scene makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would she think it acceptable to trick Barry into revealing his identity to her...on a crowded train? Even if you leave aside the fact that it felt very manipulative because he obviously had no desire to tell her, and you argue that she just wanted closure, could she not have done it anywhere else? Also, if she was so adamant that she was leaving before, why would knowing that he's the Flash be enough to get her to stay, when being a CSI is apparently her dream job?
** Knowing he's the Flash ''isn't'' enough to get her to stay. But realizing he's had a good reason not to be letting her in is enough for her to offer him a second chance to do so. If he'd taken her up on that and offered her a serious relationship, that would have outweighed the CSI job for her.
** Fair, but that doesn't answer why she felt the need to trick him into telling her. What kind of relationship was she expecting to have with him after that?
** Presumably, she'd have apologized or something, and they'd probably would've have done a bit together before ''getting'' together.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Iris, he touched you]]
* In Fast Lane, Iris confronts the guy running the drag races, and, after revealing that she's been taping their conversation, says something along the lines of "If you touch me, all of this information goes to the CCPD." Guess what the creep does next? HE TOUCHES HER, AND SHE DOES NOT GO TO THE COPS! Admittedly, he threatened her friends and family, but still!
** She might have meant it in an "I've arranged for all of this information to go to the CCPD if anything bad happens to me" kind of way, rather than literally telling him not to touch her.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Amazing new weapon, lets' never use them!]]
* So Zoom sends' another metahuman to try and kill Barry, Dr. Light. They defeat her and then by some technomiracle, recreated her powers into a pair of gloves, which are powerful enough to actually do some real damage, why not suit up someone or refit them for Garrick while he was depowered? We don't know how much besides hand blasts they copy, they could use them to blind Zoom, remember Barry was blind for most of the day.
** If I remember correctly, they didn't make the gloves that actually replicated her power, but rather ''resembled'' it. We don't know if they even came close to Dr. Light's power output, considering that they only made it destructive enough to be believable, rather than as powerful as they could go (which is probably also why they never bothered blinding Zoom with it). As to why no one else used them, considering how difficult it was for Linda to use them, not to mention the various technical malfunctions, they may have figured that it wasn't worth the effort (and walking around with glowing hands would be rather conspicuous anyway).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why Team Flash thinks [[spoiler: Jay Garrick is Zoom?]]]]
* I don’t get why at the end of the ‘Trajectory’ episode Team Flash suddenly believe [[spoiler: Jay Garrick]] is Zoom. It’s seems they just assume the blue lightning is caused by the [[spoiler: body decay]]. They seem to forget that people can have doppelganger, that speed mirage only works when the different places are very close, that [[spoiler: Jay has to use V9 while Zoom at the same time on Earth-2 was in full possession of his powers]]. Given how [[spoiler: Jay Garrick]] helped them, it’s strange none of them tries to defend him or find another hypothesis.
** They believe it due to Cisco's vision from touching Jay's helmet, plus Thawne was able to make it look like the Reverse-Flash was beating himself using a mirage.
** Yes, but they know doppelgangers and shapeshifters exist and they know speed mirage works at close range ... not between two Earthes without a portal to connect them.
** Regarding the powers, let's not forget that Zoom has been killing speedsters and draining their speed force.
** Exactly. So, as Jay, he doesn't have to use V9, right?
** Barry didn't trust Jay when they first met him. It took his friends to make him realize just because Thawne tricked them didn't mean Jay would. Now they have some signs pointing that Jay might be Zoom, so it makes sense for Barry to think Jay lied to them. His experience with Thawne definitely made him less trusting of people. He was the one arguing for Jay being Zoom at the end of the episode when Cisco and Caitlin were arguing it made no sense. Cisco vibed Zoom every time he touched Jay's helmet and actually saw what appeared to be Jay when Zoom took off the mask. If Jay's trustworthiness is called into question that automatically means everything he told Team Flash about Zoom is called into question. Jay already lied to them about how he lost his speed. Sure at the time he gave Caitlin a reasonable explanation, but how can they be sure he was telling the truth then? Jay was experiencing the same cellular damage Trajectory was facing. When her body disintegrated after her lightning turned blue it made Barry think it could be connected to Zoom. Neither they nor we know if Zoom is in full possession of his speed or if he is taking Velocity serum. There is no concrete evidence for either right now, but if Zoom needs Velocity to recover his speed it would explain why Jay doesn't show any signs of Speed Force when Caitlin examined him. As Harry theorize it would also explain why Zoom is obsessed with stealing Barry's speed if he needs it to save his life or restore his natural speed. There could be more going on here than what Team Flash thinks, but there is enough clues and bits that it is understandable why they think Jay is Zoom. Barry isn't ready to give Jay the benefit of the doubt, especially when he did that with fake Wells and it blew up in his face.
** Aaaaand, they were right. The person they knew as "Jay" was Zoom the whole time.
** Right for the wrong reasons.
** Actually hey had good reasoning. They witnessed that Trajectory-9 caused blue lighting, who has been using Trajectory? Jay. They had Cisco's visions whose accuracy has been spot on. And ever sine Wells they are unfortunately used to having former mentor/friends turn out to be not who they say they are.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How is Zoom still alive?]]
* Trajectory's lighting turned blue just before she ran herself to death. So how is Zoom still alive? His lightning is blue, so how hasn't he ran himself to death yet too?
** It's somewhat implied that's why he's been going after other speedsters' ...speed, to stave off the effects of the drug and find a cure.
** Caitlin also has a brief line about V9's lethality when Trajectory invades STAR Labs: she notes that the lethal effects of the drug are much more dangerous when one doesn't have any aspect of the Speed Force in them. Zoom definitely has the Speed Force in his body, but Eliza never did, hence why she starts disintegrating after her lightning becomes blue.
** Team Flash just assume that Trajectory's lightnings turned blue because of the body decay caused by V9. Maybe they are wrong. Maybe, for example, once a speedster reach a certain speed, his (or her) lightnings turn blue. In Trajectory's disappearance in that case is only due to pushing her power to Zoom's level while having a body decay. If Zoom doesn't have that decay, like Barry, he can use his powers as much as he wants.
** It's stated somewhere that while Zoom pretty much destroyed his Speed Force connection with V9, the little of it there is still there keeps the decay ''extremely'' low. Presumably, the more Speed Force one has, the less the decay affects them till Therese nothing left. When Zoom got Barry's speed, it rebuilt his Speed Force, curing the decay.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Is Hartley Rathaway / Pied Piper a metahuman?]]
* I always thought that he wasn't, and that the particle accelerator merely damaged his hearing without actually giving him powers, which is why here he's listed under the "Non-Metahuman Criminals" section. However, the Arrowverse wiki seems to disagree with this, and categorizes him as a meta-human with superhuman hearing but which needs to be kept in check by biomedical devices that he designs or else he'll experience SensoryOverload. (http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Hartley_Rathaway)
** That's just my point of view, but painful hearing problem looks more a medical problem than a superpower. But since this problem was caused by the particle Accelerator, maybe the wiki considers him to be the biggest loser of the SuperpowerLottery.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Fire Gun of Doom]]
* Shouldn't Heat Wave's fire gun be far deadlier than it's depicted? It's been described as weaponizing "absolute hot" the same way as Captain Cold's cold gun weaponizes absolute zero. So shouldn't Heat Wave's targets explode due to the "absolute hot" flames flash-boiling the water in their bodies? For that matter, shouldn't the gun kill everyone around it due to "absolute hot" dispersing through convection?
** Just because it weaponizes that level of heat doesn't necessarily mean the flames it produces are that hot. Plus, the gun could just have adjustable heat levels.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Name Choice]]
* Why exactly does Rathaway call himself the "Pied Piper" in the show? In the comics, the name made sense because he used sound waves for hypnotic purposes at least some of the time. But in the show, he mostly just uses them to directly cause destruction. So where does the name come from? Shouldn't he have named himself something more intimidating?
** There are some parallels between Rathaway and the Pied Piper of the fairy tale. He's a man who provided a service, got cheated by his employer, and came back for revenge. He's probably using it in the "pay the piper" sense.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: So, which Earth is Hunter Zolomon from?]]
* If Zolomon is under the mask and he was created during the Particle Accelerator explosion on Earth-2, then how does he look exactly like Jay, who we've seen is also from Earth-2 (given how they were shown fighting each other before the breach opened up)? There are doppelgangers, but they're generally AlternateUniverse doubles. We've never seen two from the same Earth before. And if Zolomon is from Earth-1, then why didn't he come after the Earth-1 Flash before? Or The Reverse-Flash? Given that he's on a clock to steal Speed Force before he dies, it wouldn't have made much sense for him to just leave two speedsters in the same area alone for a whole season. Is he from a third, previously unseen Earth (this would explain a lot)?
** There may be another reason. In "Trajectory", after Eliza Harmon reverse-engineers the Velocity-9 drug and uses it on herself, she gains tremendous speed -- but develops a SplitPersonality and it killed her rather quickly (maybe because she didn't have the connection to the Speed Force that Jay or Zoom did). We know that Jay took the Velocity-6 drug and it began killing him, though if he has a connection to the Speed Force, the drug might be just killing him more slowly than it killed Eliza. What if the drug also created a SplitPersonality in Jay as well, only literally? Jay might have split into two or even three people, assuming that the Masked Prisoner also looks exactly like Jay, with Zoom or Zolomon being the SuperpoweredEvilSide of Jay -- and also dying.
** This is all explained in "Versus Zoom".
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Cisco and Caitlin, Declaring Bankruptcy?]]
* How do Cisco and Caitlin get paid? Most likely government funding has been pulled from STAR Labs after the accident that killed a large number of people, and Wells/Thawne, who may have privately funded the lab, is now gone, and has left the lab to Barry. So how are Caitlin and Cisco making a living, when their new "boss" earns a meager CSI's salary?
** STAR Labs has been around even before the Particle Accelerator incident, so supposedly they still own a few patents that they can draw some funds out of. Not only that, but STAR Labs was the one who provided the CCPD with their Anti Meta-Human weaponry and equipment. Assuming CCPD still use these on a regular basis, they may be keeping STAR Labs on some sort of retainer for equipment maintenance, consultation, and eventual upgrades. If ''other'' police departments in ''other'' cities start using that equipment, the money would go to STAR Labs since they're the ones who own that patent. (Cisco invented those devices while under the employ of STAR Labs. Therefore, those devices belong to the company, not to him.)
** Considering the kind of next generation tech they create, I'd say those patents are extremely lucrative. Which raises a really important question: why has nobody acknowledged that Barry Allen by all logic is a millionaire or billionaire now? All evidence indicates that STAR Labs is a private corporation, without shareholders, meaning that Barry Allen is the sole owner of STAR Labs. Considering the sort of next level technology they create their patents are worth billions, and Wells' house was pretty snazzy so we know he wasn't exactly broke. Barry Allen is a billionaire now. This creates a giant plothole with Wally's plot. Barry shoulda been like "Medical bills? I got this."
** It's entirely probable that neither extreme is the case. First, let's assume that STAR Labs is a wholly-owned private corporation, because Thawne wouldn't have wanted any interference in his plans. So Thawne passed ownership of that corporation to Barry after his death. All well and good. While STAR has millions of dollars worth of assets, it probably also has millions of dollars worth of liabilities. It may even have already declared bankruptcy and reorganized during Barry's coma. So the net worth of the corporation is probably near-zero. It may have enough residual income coming in to offset its operating expendatures but probably not by much. Anything extra probably goes to funding the activities of Team Flash. (Those friction-free suits have to come from somewhere!) In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if we see a "STAR Labs is going broke" plot-line in some future season. Even if STAR Labs is losing money, if it was financially secure enough before the accident it might have the resources to coast for years at a minimum operating level like it is currently.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The crossover with Supergirl]]
* Why is Barry completely unfazed by the fact that no time has passed after returning from Supergirl's dimension? Why doesn't he feel like he has to tell to the others what just happened?
** To the first question: The guy has fought evil speedsters, various metahumans, a walking shark, and he recently met a superpowered alien. YearInsideHourOutside probably ranks pretty low on the "weird shit" scale at this point. To the second: Because only a few seconds have passed, he's still got a confrontation with Zoom to prepare for, which is a more immediate concern than telling his friends all about Kara's Earth.
** He also asks, "How long was I gone?" The rest of Team Flash, understandably, doesn't realize what's happened, and talk to him about his speed before they move on to Zoom again. And as the above says, he's got more important things to worry about at the moment.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Was Jay real?]]
* So now we know that Jay Garrick is Hunter Zolomon/Zoom. But was there ever a real Jay Garrick? If there was, how does Zoom look exactly like him, and if there wasn't, why did Zoom spend all those years posing as Jay Garrick and being a good guy? And what reason would there be for him to take on the name "Jay Garrick" in the first place? Why not just use his original name since he didn't plan on anyone connecting his name to Zoom?
** Based on what has been revealed thus far (as of 2x18 "Versus Zoom") it does seem like 'Jay Garrick' was just an alias Zoom used while pretending to be a hero in order to "give people hope...then take it away from them". Obviously he needed an alias because if he went around calling himself 'Hunter Zolomon' everyone would know he was the notorious serial killer who had been put away a while back. Granted, its entirely possible that there is more to the story of how and why Hunter became 'Jay' and chances are that a 'real' Jay Garrick will be introduced at some point during the life of the series.
** It's worth noting that "Jay Garrick" is a pretty specific alias to go with, so Zolomon probably didn't just pull it out of thin air. Plus, Greg Berlanti has [[https://twitter.com/GBerlanti/status/722882921854427138 stated on Twitter]] that the crew has no intention of making Jay a case of AdaptationalVillainy, so there probably is a real one out there
** Maybe he's the Man in the Iron Mask, who may or may not even look like Teddy Sears. With Berlanti's WordOfGod in mind, things probably happened like this: Hunter Zolomon finds Jay Garrick, an average Joe, who was affected by the particle accelerator, becoming a speedster. Hunter abducts the Real Jay, puts him into a speedster cage, steals his identity as both civilian and the Flash, starts acting as both Flash and Zoom "to give people hope, so he could take it away from them". As for why does nobody recognize that the man who is calling himself Jay Garrick doesn't look like Real Jay? Well, Earth 2 Hunter is a serial killer - he could don the Zoom costume, murder all friends and relatives of the Real Jay, forge documents ('cause who can stop a speedster from doing that?), thus giving his own version of "Jay Garrick" a motive to be a hero and "fight" Zoom.
** The reveal that there was no "Jay Garrick" on Earth 1 was a great clue to the eventual Zoom reveal but also raises a couple questions: It seems inconceivable that there's *no one* with that name as it's not that uncommon. Maybe Caitlin was looking at a specific age range (e.g. if I'm looking on Facebook for a "Jay Garrick" I went to college with, I'd logically narrow the search to a set number of years). We know that Hunter's father fought in the "War of the Americas" (potentially a clever way of having a Justice Society on Earth 2 that isn't tied to a war with a specific date like in the comics but simply "some point in the past"). What we see Hunter's father wearing (the classic Jay Garrick costume) could simply be what most soldiers wore during that period and is no more unique as army fatigues or a dress uniform. This troper's suspicion is that Hunter's father and the real Jay Garrick are connected somehow: Maybe Jay Garrick like Joe West was responsible for putting James Zolomon away for the murder of his wife. And unlike Barry and Joe, Hunter didn't find a substitute father figure in Jay. No, it's more likely that he held Jay responsible and wanted to make him pay. "Versus Zoom" goes to great lengths to set up the parallels between Barry and Hunter -- the latter even saying, "We're not so different." Iris and Caitlin even comment on Joe and Barry's "special bond" in a scene that almost seems superfluous if it's not meant to provide a clue.
** This is explained in the Season 2 Finale. [[spoiler:The real Jay Garrick is Henry Allen's doppleganger from Earth-3. At some point before the portal opened, Hunter Zolomon/Zoom imprisoned him and stole his identity. They Jay we saw throughout the season, however, was always Zoom.]]
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How did Zoom get back?]]
* In 'Versus Zoom', Zoom takes Wally back to Earth-2 where he meets the man in the iron mask. A short while later, he brings Wally back to Earth-1 to make a deal with Team Flash. But how did he travel between dimensions without Cisco's powers? And if he could just run between Earths, why did he have to wait for Cisco to open a portal to Earth-1 near the middle of the episode?
** It seems that once Cisco opened the breach, it stayed open and Zoom was able to easily traverse it.
** No, Barry had them reopen the portal to confront Zoom and stop him. ''Why'' he thought that was a good idea is beyond me.
** Me and a few other friends have theorized that Barry thought Zoom would probably just start destroying all of Earth-2 and try to find a way to get to another Earth to try again.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Shouldn't Zoom be dead?]]
* Zoom claimed he made it look like he was in two places at once by essentially recruiting a past version of himself and convincing him to get murdered. But doesn't that mean Zoom shouldn't exist anymore? If he was murdered earlier in his personal timeline, how could he still be around in the present?
** He called it his "temporal remnant." Like with Thawne--Thawne doesn't exist any more, but a few pieces of him are still running around the timestream to prevent paradox. So maybe the current Zoom is just the same thing, a ghost who will disappear once his role is over. However, that would be a DeusExMachina, so instead it's probably easier to assume that Zoom traveled from just a few months in the future, and the shorter timespan means less damage to the timeline.
** The 'timeline remnant' explanation actually ''doesn't'' make sense at all in this context. What's happened with Zoom, allegedly, totally contradicts what happened with Thawne. In Thawne's case, when Eddie kills himself in 2015, the Thawne bloodline from that point forward is erased, leading to Eobard being vaporized. However, Eobard's 'timeline remnant' from an earlier point in his life, protected by the Speed Force, still appears in 2016, and no doubt retroactively, the Eobard who showed up in 2000 to kill Nora Allen has also become a 'timeline remnant'. The point is that Eobard's story still ends the moment Eddie kills himself and he gets vaporized...that's the end of Eobard's life (as far as we know). Contrast this with what we're told happened to Zoom, where he apparently killed his past self and negated his existence, yet continues to exist. Going by the Thawne situation, the moment Zoom killed his younger self, he should have vaporized as well (the 'timeline remnant' in this case would actually be future Zoom showing up to kill his younger self, to preserve the new timeline and prevent a paradox).
** Eobard was erased from existence when Eddie, his ancestor, killed himself (and presumably generations of innocent people, but let's not get into that right now). Zoom literally killed *himself.* Eddie's actions make it impossible for Eobard to exist. It's also not a form of the "Grandfather Paradox," because while the Reverse Flash threatening to kill everyone is *why* Eddie takes his own life, the Reverse Flash doesn't directly kill his ancestor. Zoom's actions, however, are an example of the "Grandfather Paradox," but restricted to his own timeline. Zoom removes a version of himself from the past, who immediately becomes a timeline remnant because the original Zoom never left the past and went to Earth 1.
** You are also assuming that [[Main/VillainsNeverLie Zoom is telling the truth]]. Recall that the episode that revealed to the audience Zoom's face had him saying "This is a complication" with regard to Jay's death. Why would he say that if Jay's death was a part of his plan all along?
** No, people just assumed that "complication" refers to Time Remnant's death. It's more likely that Zoom was referring to the fact that Time Remnant Zoom has helped to close the last breach between worlds. If not for Cisco's re-opening of the breaches, Zoom would be left to die, stranded on Earth 2. THAT was the complication, that haunted Zoom up to 2x19.
** It's worth remembering that Earth-2 is an AlternateUniverse, and therefore the same rules that govern Earth-1 may not necessarily apply. There is a lot of overlap between the two, obviously (the Speed Force, most of the basic rules of physics, metahuman powers, the same individuals, etc.), and yet there are still differences, like the fact that Cisco couldn't use his powers on Earth-2 due to the different vibrational frequencies. Getting back to my point, it's possible that the rules governing time travel aren't quite the same on Earth-1 as it is on Earth-2. Therefore, it's possible that Zoom could kill his younger self without erasing himself from existence, or affecting anything else that happened. Alternatively, when you mix Time Travel and Alternate Universes, the results are likely unpredictable. There's nothing to suggest that Time Travel in one universe could have any effect on another. Note that Zoom, a resident of Earth-2, murdered his younger self on Earth-1, and since Zoom never existed on Earth-1, he couldn't exactly be erased from that timeline. And now, I have a headache.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Star Labs is a threat to Central City]]
* Some tropers mentioned their concern last season with how Star Labs operated outside the law (imprisoning metahumans without a trial or even questioning them without legal representation). However, ultimately, a villain was running the operation, which "justified" some of the darker aspects. This season, it's harder to rationalize, especially since Joe West -- a police detective -- is directly involved with them. The events of "Versus Doom" had civilians managing a hostage situation like rank amateurs and the end result was catastrophic and a direct threat to millions of lives. I get that West is Wally's dad, so he is understandably not thinking clearly, but his larger duty would have been to call in trained professionals. You never negotiate with a known criminal in this situation, and you definitely never barter the safety and well-being of another person for the hostage. You can argue that the Flash is not a mere "civilian," but he was not simply sacrificing himself (like the officer who volunteers to switch places with a hostage). His speed is basically a nuclear weapon in the hands of a terrorist. And it would be laughable to imagine any sane law enforcement personnel or government agency trading a nuclear weapon for a hostage. If those were the terms, you officially consider the hostage dead and double down in taking out the terrorist for the murder that is *entirely the terrorist's fault.* Or you come up with a plan to stop the terrorist and bring back the hostage safe and sound. But willingly handing over a nuclear bomb is asinine.
** This is probably the IntendedAudienceReaction. We're clearly supposed to think Barry is making the wrong choice – actually, Joe is the one who tells him that he shouldn't give up his speed. Besides, it's not like they could stop Barry from trading himself any more than they could stop Zoom from taking Wally. The real question is why [[MagnificentBastard Harry]] didn't sabotage the exchange to kill Zoom.
** A better question than that is why Barry didn't simply betray Zoom as soon as Wally was safe; at this point, Barry ''is'' more powerful than Zoom thanks to Thawne's tachyon upgrade, but rather than attack Zoom he just hands over the power even though it meant nothing could stop Zoom afterwords. The answer to that though is simple: The same reason Barry and co let Thawne out and began helping him get back to his time after he explains to Barry how to travel through time in the S1 finale. Barry, really, is just kind of an idiot about this stuff.
** First many of the things Star Labs does that are illegal fall under ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight. Until S2 the regular prison would have held a meta human for about five more minutes than said Meta felt like getting free room and board. Additionally with characters like Eiling and Waller running about I'm not certain a rational person would really want a Meta in a scenario where they could be studied and possibly reproduced or even implanted with a bomb and recruited to the Suicide Squad. As for true hostage negotiations the rules are a little different with Zoom who frankly was being polite by holding Wally hostage instead of offing him to make a point then grabbing Iris or Joe and negotiating. Also the Flash is NOT a nuke. Nukes are big and messy. The reason we don't want other countries to have nukes isn't because they might kill a an important person it's because of the huge unavoidable long term collateral of one. Only a handful of people in history are sufficiently evil that given Flash's power would actually do damage remotely on par with a nuclear bomb.
** The above solves absolutely nothing; '''''WHY DIDNT BARRY JUST THROW ZOOM IN THE PIPELINE?!?!?!?!'''''
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Who trained Zoom?]]
* Thawne as Wells helped train Barry Allen, and STAR Labs made his costume. But who was Zoom's support system? His lair implies a significant level of technical achievement (the cells). Did he also come up with a way of diagnosing his "speed sickness" on his own?
** Presumably Zoom figure it out on his own. He does appear to possess scientific knowledge, since he created the original Velocity formula to increase his speed. He might not have needed a support system. Barry has one, but we don't know he couldn't have figured out his powers on his own. There is a good chance in the original unaltered timeline that Barry did figure out his powers on his own.
** Bear in mind that there's still a lot unknown about Zoom and his backstory. WordOfGod says that the Man in the Iron Mask figures into that. For all we know, the Man in the Iron Mask could have trained Zoom in the use of his speed (especially if he himself is a speedster).
** Most other metahumans appear to have figured out their powers on their own (granted, most of them have less complicated powers), as have the Kryptonians in {{Series/Supergirl|2015}}.
[[/folder]]
[[folder:Wells' brilliant idea]]
* Okay, so after berating Barry for giving away his powers and getting a lesson in humility from Griffin Grey about how the particle accelerator explosion affected some people Wells' idea is: Let's do another one! It seems kind of weird for him to do this considering he acknowledges he made mistakes.
** They don't have a lot of options either. Zoom is even faster than before, healthy again, and can travel between both Earths. Barry needs his speed if they have any hope of stopping him.
** Judging by the promos for the next episode, it seems that the 'particle accelerator explosion' in this case is more of a contained experiment designed only to affect Barry and not anyone else.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Where did the alloy come from?]]
* Where exactly did Felicity get the dwarf star alloy that Team Flash put in Barry's suit when he fought Griffin Grey? Nothing in the show indicates that their Earth has advanced-enough space travel to go out and get it from a dwarf star, so how did dwarf star alloy end up on Earth? True, the show says that the alloy came from Ray's Atom suit experiments, but that only raises the question of where HE got it from.
** Ray got it from a mine. It's a rare material, but it can still occur on Earth somehow. It doesn't really matter ''how'' the material forms on Earth, only that it ''does''.
** "Dwarf star alloy" doesn't have to be a literal name. Maybe whoever discovered it just thought it would sound cool.
** An episode of ''Legends'' confirms that the material does occur naturally on Earth. It's just incredibly rare and hard to detect without appropriate equipment.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How is Hawkgirl alive?]]
* The 2024 newspaper mentions that Hawkgirl was involved in the fight against the Reverse-Flash before he and Barry traveled back in time. But in Season 2, we meet Hawkgirl... and if not for the intervention of the Flash, she would have been killed by Vandal Savage in 2016 (meaning that her reincarnation wouldn't be older than 8 by 2024). How could she survive in the original timeline, where the Flash didn't exist (and Team Arrow wouldn't have known to get involved)?
** Which instance do you mean? Would any of her interactions with Savage been absolutely ''impossible'' for her to survive on her own?
** The real answer is did and we'll likely never figure out how. Time travel has some [[ButterflyEffect truly odd]] consequences. Flashpoint Paradox has Flash go back and save his mother. Among other changes Bruce is killed instead of Thomas Wayne, Superman is found by the authorities as a baby and Aquaman and Wonder Woman have an affair that leads to a world war. None of those situations should logically have been effected by Flash saving his mother. So Flash appearing when he did setting off any chain of events that lead to Carter finding Kendra sooner and fleeing to Poughkeepsie successfully is a lot easier to swallow than that. ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow'' makes it explicit that Savage doesn't always catch them in their twenties or thirties.
** Simple answer. In the original timeline, Kendra wouldn't have been with Cisco at Jitters. She might not even have known Cisco (who in turn probably wouldn't have known the Flash yet). Wherever else she was, she was somehow able to evade Vandal Savage long enough to survive and live another nine years at least. Maybe in the original timeline, Carter found her a lot sooner and rescued her himself. With the ButterflyEffect in play, anything is possible.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does Zoom Science?]]
* So, with the reveal that [[spoiler:'Jay Garrick' is really Hunter Zolomon]], how does Zoom do the science stuff he does? How did he develop Velocity 6? How did he test his blood to find out he was dying? How did he build the complex Speedster-proof cells in his Zoom-cave? How did he build the Speed Cannon to get people through the Earths? How does he do any of the science stuff that he's shown doing [[spoiler:as both Hunter/Zoom and Jay]]?\\
I mean, Jay was a scientist, but [[spoiler:Hunter was just a serial killer and mental patient]], and at no point is it said he studied any science before that, given his appearance indicates he was probably not a 'smart' killer. How did Zoom do any of those things if he's not actually a scientist?
** Earth 2 is ridiculously more advanced than Earth 1 is. The Particle Accelerator there came online at the same time without a genius from the future helping. Jesse Wells has a throwaway line about having five separate majors and asks if that isn't normal on Earth 1. We don't see a lot of Earth 2 but what we have seen suggests that Zoom may not be THAT brilliant by the standards of his Earth. Additionally a lot of this technology may exist at least in part over there.
** Barry is shown learning things by rapidly reading books and being able to retain the knowledge, so there's no reason Zoom can't. As for his look after he was seen to have been arrested, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Theodore_Kaczynski.jpg This]] is what the Theodore Kaczynski (the Unabomber) looked like when he was arrested, had scored 167 on an IQ test, entered Harvard University at age 16 and was considered a mathematical genius when he earned his [=PhD=]. For all that's known as yet, Earth-2 Hunter Zolomon could very well have been equally intelligent as well as nuts.
** Furthermore, WordOfGod has confirmed that not everything is known about Zoom's backstory as yet and the Man in the Iron Mask was very much a part of it. It may well be possible that Zoom learnt a lot from the Man in the Iron Mask before imprisoning him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How can Zoom and Reverse Flash be so fast?]]
* Zoom is supposedly about four times as fast as Barry. How is that even possible? We know that the series puts something of a cap on how fast a speedster can travel, it's about 1600 mph (Mach 2) after that you literally tear holes in time. Two of Barry's time traveling experiences were accidental so we know it's not really a matter of wanting to go back in time. Shouldn't Zoom be randomly opening portals?
** In both times Barry accidentally time traveled, he was trying to deal with major disasters (a tsunami about the flatten the city that he couldn't stop, and Vandal Savage's disintegration wave), so he might very well have been desperate in wanting to have some way of stopping it, especially the second time when he knew he could time travel, and that unconscious need allowed him to travel in time. Zoom and Reverse Flash don't ''want'' to travel in time. Zoom might not even know he can--he doesn't seem to have ever been in a situation where he'd feel the need to--and so they don't. So time travel for a speedster might mean both having the speed to do so and feeling the need to do it.
** A couple points: Zoom definitely knows he can time travel (it's how he created a version of himself to murder in front of Team Flash) and Reverse-Flash definitely wants to time travel; his whole plan was finding a way to get back to his timeline. In Eobard's case, his connection to the Speed Force was in flux after he murdered Barry's mother, which is why he couldn't time travel in Season 1. As for Zoom, he may have realized he could time travel during his time on Earth-1. Plus, the whole Mach 2/time travel thing also had the Particle Accelerator in the mix, so I doubt it's as simple as 'Barry runs at Mach 2 and can travel through time'. As for his accidental time jumps, he technically knew it was going to happen in advance thanks to the echoes he sees at specific points in time, so when he accidently jumps, he may be unintentionally focusing on that point in time.
** As for Zoom and Reverse Flash being so much faster, that largely has to do with the fact that they're artificially enhancing their speed: Zoom has been abusing Velocity-9 to travel faster, while Thawne has made use of tachyon particle enhancement to go faster (which Barry also makes use of later in season 2). Presumably, as noted above, 1600mph is not a hard-and-fast limit for speedsters per se, and they can travel much faster without initiating time travel or opening portals so long as they're careful not to. Since the Speed Force is somewhat sentient, after all, intent probably plays some part in time and inter-dimensional travel.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Wally and Jesse's exposure to the particle accelerator explosion]]
* Both of them were hit and knocked out by the dark matter wave inside STAR Labs at the same time, yet Wally shrugged it off like it was nothing while Jesse went into a coma for nearly an entire episode. Does the explosion affect individuals differently even if they're in close proximity with each other like the Mardon brothers?
** First, Jesse is from a different universe and presumably will react to things differently than anyone else would. Aside from that, Wally may not actually have been affected. Lots of people were outside when the original explosion happened, but they didn't all develop powers; Wally may have the potential for powers but it hasn't been activated.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How does the Speed Force work?]]
* The show says that the Speed Force is an extra-dimensional energy source that Barry can tap into in order to use his powers. But other times the show acts like the Speed Force is a finite substance contained in Barry's body, such as when Wells used his technology to remove some of it from Barry and make him slower, or when Zoom physically stole the speed from Barry in exchange for Wally. So which is it? Is it an infinite source that Barry accesses, or is it a limited power contained in Barry's body?
** These are not mutually exclusive concepts. The Speed Force is a fundamental part of nature and is infinite. Barry as an individual can only store and access a finite amount at any given time. Additionally the Speed Force is sentient and given how it seemed to have been insulted that Barry would give up his powers opens the possibility that it may let things happen because it disagrees with your actions.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: When and why did Barry change into uniform to chase Zoom]]
* [[spoiler: When Zoom comes and kidnaps Henry Allen with the intent of murdering him he comes into a celebration for Barry who is in civilian clothes at the time. Zoom grabs Harry and runs, Barry pursues and he's magically in uniform. Barry changing from civilian clothing to Flash happens in a flash from our perspective and those of other humans but we're talking about remaining in pursuit of a man who can outrun bullets.]]
** Who knows, maybe Harry got Eobard Thawne's micro tech working, allowing Barry to store the Flash suit close at hand.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Zoom unmasked]]
* Zoom is unmasked when discussing his plan with Black Siren. She doesn't seem shocked to see him this way either. I know Siren was presumably a high-ranking member of Zoom's gang, but that is an uncharacteristic level of trust for Zoom. Why would he let anyone know that "Jay Garrick" is really Zoom? It's potential for blackmail or a commodity to barter if the police manage to catch her. (I'm going to give Zoom the benefit of the doubt that Siren wasn't actually planning to betray him but was stringing "Reverb" and "Killer Frost" along.)
** Well, Black Siren was his top lieutenant, and it does seem like he has a more personal connection with her as compared to Reverb and Killer Frost. So its possible she always knew what he looked like (in fact, there's nothing established in previous episodes which proves that Reverb and Killer Frost DIDN'T know what Zoom looked like). Also, Zoom may well have abandoned the "Jay Garrick" identity by this point...Jay would anyway have been considered 'missing, presumed dead' on E2.
** He probably doesn't ''care'' that much about it. Pretending to be Jay Garrick was a hobby for him, a way to entertain himself at the expense of the city; the only time he needed the identity to be kept was when he was on Earth 1 and needed to continue the illusion to manipulate Team Flash. Its entirely likely that a lot of his gang knew about it too so they could all joke about it, and while one may offer it to police, its not a big enough deal and, even if he ''did'' care about it enough, he's insanely powerful and could kill any/all of them with barely a thought.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why not kill Zoom?]]
* In the S2 finale Team Flash manages to get the boot on Zoom bringing him down low enough for Joe to briefly fight him in hand to hand and for Wells to shoot him to push him through a breach to Earth 2. You know what's better than sending Zoom back to Earth 2 where he'd inevitably find a way back given enough time? Filling him with bullets.
** Unless you're the Punisher, it's kind of hard to be seen as the good guy if you go around shooting people to death.
** Joe's a cop. Zoom is at the very least as strong as a demigod. No court in either world would ever convict him, and nobody would ever blame him, and two worlds would consider him a hero for it.
** You assume he could have just shot him. He didn't have his gun and Zoom's suit would have likely been bulletproof. It would have hurt but, you know.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Wally unlocking the Pipeline]]
* How is Wally able to free Barry out of the Pipeline? Wouldn't he need a passcode for that? Does this mean that STAR Labs security is so bad that any guy off the street could potentially walk in and free any metahumans still kept in the Pipeline?
** Given it was Barry they locked up, its like that the security was deliberately lax in comparison and they didn't bother setting a password.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why leave Wally out of important Team Flash decisions?]]
* Wally knew that Barry was the Flash, and has shown himself to be basically good enough to be a part of Team Flash decisions. So why, when Team Flash minus Flash decided to enact a very dangerous plan to defeat Zoom, one which got Joe trapped in Earth 2 for a time, did they not even inform Wally of this beforehand? If not for him deserving a spot on Team Flash, couldn't they at least have told him about it because their plan put Joe in danger?
** Wally hasn't really been a part of the team, or the Flash's world, long enough. Apart from being Joe's son and Iris' brother, not to mention discovering the Flash's secret quiet by chance, he's pretty much just another bystander. So unlike all the others, he really doesn't have an understanding of the stakes involved, or the sacrifices that might need to be made. For that reason, he didn't have a say. And he wasn't informed precisely because they knew he'd have the reaction he actually did - freak out if something happened to Joe and do whatever it took to get him back (including freeing Barry).
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Why not save [[spoiler:Henry?]]]]
* At the end of [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E23TheRaceOfHisLife "The Race of His Life"]], Barry is depressed because his father had just been murdered. Then he decided to travel back in time and save... his mother?! Why not save Henry instead? Barry knows that altering the past can have a huge ButterflyEffect; at the end of the previous season his older self warned him not to save his mom, and he agreed. And the further down the past you go to change the things, the bigger the butterfly effect will be. So why does Barry go back 20 years and save his mom (an event which, if altered, could lead him into not becoming the Flash to begin with), instead of going back a day and save his dad, whose death he was actually mourning? Barry knows that if he cancels the events of one day, the butterfly effect won't be that dramatic, since he's done it [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime twice]] [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday already]]. Seems like the only reason the writers made Barry save Nora and not Henry was because they wanted to adapt ''Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}}'' for the next season.
** By saving Nora, he saves both of them, and obviously he doesn't care about the consequences by then.
** Agreed. As Joe said at Henry's funeral, Henry lost fifteen years of his life, his reputation, and for all intents and purposes his son. The Reverse Flash killed Nora but basically slow tortured Henry. Then he's free for about a year and Zoom kills him. I can see Barry flipping out and doing what he does over the compounded injustice. Barry's an incredible optimist and the possibility of getting his father back and making everything right had been driving him for years. Now it's all gone.
** In Barry's mind, the death of Nora Allen is where all the tragedy in his life began. If he can avert that one tragedy, the first one, he can undo a lifetime of pain. Moreover, Barry ''knows'' for a fact that his mother wasn't originally supposed to die and Thawne altered the past to make it so, so from a certain point of view, he feels justified in altering that one event to something closer to what 'originally' happened.
** Barry's plan is clearly as stated above a very simple Save my Mother Save the World sort of mentality. And despite the fact that it might prevent him from becoming the Flash it shouldn't. Our very specific Flash is not the result of a scientist making a mistake. He was the result of twenty years of planning by a genius from a century in the future with a computer that could predict the future. Barry stopped Eobard but it looks like he knocked him out rather than actually killed him.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry at the Grave]]
* Given the serialized nature of third act of Season 2, including the episodes when Barry was powerless, at what point in time did he have time to visit Oliver [[spoiler: at Laurel's grave]]?
** Best option is between episode 21 (when Barry gets his powers back) and episode 22 (when Team Flash is aware of Laurel's death). There's even an apparent gap of time at the end of Episode 21 when Barry and Iris visit Nora Allen's grave.
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[[folder: Zoom and the Man In The Iron Mask (season 2 finale spoilers!)]]
* So, all this time: 1) Zoom had invented a device that could suppress a speedster's powers. 2) Zoom had a speedster as his prisoner. This may call into question some of his actions over the course of the season. Why did he need to drain Barry of his speed, when he could have just done it with Jay Garrick? Why did he never use another speed-dampening mask on his enemy, e.g. in "Enter Zoom", or when Barry is prisoner in "Escape From Earth-2"?
** Understanding Zoom's plans can be tricky in the sense that we only really hear about them from Zoom himself during Villain Monologues. The show provides no Objective Perspective of what transpires. But my best guess, based on what we're told:\\
Zoom starts taking the speed drug that makes him fast enough to travel to other Earths. He learns about Jay Garrick/Flash, but it's around that time that he also discovers that the speed drug is killing him. After searching for a cure to no avail, he then kidnaps Jay Garrick/Flash as both a "trophy" and a failed attempt to steal his speed. It's clear from the events of Season 2 that Zoom can't take a speedster's powers by himself -- that was part of "Jay Garrick's" original lie to Team Flash. He needed the help of Harrison Wells. And it was Wells alone -- in fear of his daughter's life -- who discovered how to steal Flash's speed and transfer it to someone else. All Zoom basically did was kidnap the people (Jesse and later Wally) that would force everyone to play along. Basically, we have no evidence that he's much of a scientific genius on his own. It's a fair assumption that the speed dampener was something Zoom co-opted. And either there was only one or the technology just didn't work on Barry.
There is also the question of Zoom's actual motives during "Escape from Earth-2." As "Jay" (or at least Zoom's time remnant at this point), he makes every effort to try to get Barry, Cisco, and Wells back (when it would be easy enough to just fail in fixing the speed cannon). At this point, Zoom has Barry and Jesse hostage and is scouring the city for Wells, who once he captures, he can force to steal Barry's speed for him. However, Zoom later states that he faked Jay's death primarily to motivate Barry to "get faster." So, it's possible that he did want Barry to eventually escape. After all, Zoom loses his cool and phases through Barry's cage to beat the crap out of him, which was what gave Barry the idea of how to escape. Zoom is usually more restrained. So maybe this was all part of his "long con."
[[/folder]]
[[folder: The Man In The Iron Mask (season 2 finale spoilers!)]]
* So, is it just a major coincidence that the man Zoom is holding prisoner is a speedster who happens to physically resemble Henry Allen? I know various clues have been dropped throughout the season (including Henry's comment about his mother's maiden name), but still, presuming that Earth-3's inhabitants are ''also'' doppelgangers of Earth-1's inhabitants (or vice-versa), of all 7+ billion people on the planet, the resident speedster hero of this universe just happens to resemble the father of the resident speedster hero of Earth-1? ...Maybe there's something I'm missing? Maybe it hasn't been explained yet? Maybe the Speed Force willed it to be this way? I'unno.
** That's the very definition of the multiverse: for every possibility, no matter how unlikely or outlandish, there ''must'' be a universe where it is the truth. Therefore, a universe like Earth-3 where the resident speedster resembles the Henry Allen of Earth-1 is not that implausible by comparison.
** Not to mention, the 90's series is ''also'' part of the Multiverse, and therefore, by the same logic, the Barry Allen of that earth has to be another doppelganger of Henry Allen. That means there are a minimum of ''four'' Henry Allen doppelgangers in the CW Multiverse right now - Earth 1 (deceased), Earth 2, Earth 3 ('Jay Garrick') and Earth 4 ('Barry Allen'); of whom, one if the father of a speedster and two of them ''are'' speedsters. My guess is that the Speed Force somehow ''does'' seek out the Allen bloodline. In fact, in a wonderfully meta way, is it possible that the Speed Force sought out Earth 1 Barry, because he was the son of the doppelganger of Henry/Barry/Jay (a nod to how the character played by John Wesley Shipp was the ''original'' live action Flash?)
*** It's also possible that the the shot of 90's Barry Allen we saw was actually Jay Garrick's old suit.
** Hunter Zolomon is also the "evil" version of Flash on a world where most of our heroes are evil. It doesn't seem that outlandish that a proper "good" version of Flash on yet another world would be "related" to Barry. Much like the comic book Earth 2, where the heroes are generation older than Earth 1's heroes.
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[[folder: How do time remnants work?]]
* On the show, the writers seem to throw around the phrase "time remnant" as if somehow that means that traveling through time means you can "die" without really dying because there are two of you. If Barry's method for creating a time remnant (travel back a few seconds in time next to yourself) actually works like that, wouldn't the Barry that traveled in time dying mean that Barry dies? Furthermore, if the Barry pre-time travel dies, doesn't that mean that the post-time travel Barry would dissolve into nothingness like Eobard/Wells did in the season 1 finale? I just don't get it. If anyone can explain how this works, it would be much appreciated.
** I think it's safe to say that time remnants, just like time travel in the Arrowverse, works: it does what it does because 'fuck you that's why.' In all seriousness, it seems that when you create a time remnant, you effectively clone yourself into two separate individuals, the 'older' of which is probably the one to die, allowing the younger to survive and avoid any time paradox. Why Barry never did this before when he accidentally traveled through time is something we can only guess at, but if Zoom's dialogue is any indication, it's a rather advanced ability that you have to really want to do. Add onto the fact that it seems to seriously piss off the Time Wraiths (considering how they seemed much more angry at Zoom for constantly creating time remnants and killing them), and it's understandable that it's something Barry would only do in desperation.
** Time remnants are possibly a way to 'cheat' the time-stream by running back just a few seconds into the past...so close that the time-stream doesn't even detect the two speedsters as a 'past' or 'future' version but as identical duplicates, removing the causality between them.
** Here's the most logical way to think about it: At some point in time you decide that you need an alternate version of yourself to die gloriously to advance your plans. At some subsequent point in time, you time-travel back to fulfill that goal and the time-travelling version of you dies. After that, the contemporary you moves forward in time naturally but when it comes time to go back, you decide "screw that, I'm going to live." You've now created an alternate future time-line where you ''don't'' die gloriously in the past. But the alternate-you from the other future still exists in the past as a "remnant" of the old future time-line. Hence, "time remnant."
** You create them by setting up a StableTimeLoop, but then don't close the loop. You travel back in time, to a point ''before'' you decided to travel back in time. You then ensure that your Pre-Time-Travel self ''doesn't'' travel back 'again' (from your Post-TT perspective), meaning both versions of yourself will exists ''past'' the point at which the Pre-TT version should have 'disappeared' by travelling back in time. Paradoxically, you shouldn't exist, because you've prevented the original event that caused you to be in the past. This is why the Time Wraiths don't like you doing it.\\
Most of the time remnants we see are created to be disposable - to sacrifice themselves reasonably quickly and shut down the paradox that way. So far, only one time remnant has been shown to live past his pre-determined point of expiry - one that Barry created. The mental strain caused by existing in tandem with his original self, but being considered an aberrant tool rather than a copy of Barry caused him to snap and become ''Savitar''. So while it appears theoretically possible to duplicate oneself and have that duplicate live an entire life as a distinct individual, the practicalities of this make it a generally bad idea.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Mental time travel (past-self merge) vs. time remnants?]]
* How does time travel work in this show, exactly? In [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E15OutOfTime Out Of Time]] and [[Recap/ArrowS4E8LegendsOfYesterday Legends Of Yesterday]], Barry goes back a day, merging with his past self in a form of MentalTimeTravel. However, in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S1E23FastEnough Fast Enough]], there are multiple versions of Barry at the same point of time. This second concept is further explored in season 2 with the idea of "time remnants" that both Barry and Zoom utilize, beginning with 2016!Barry coexisting with 2015!Barry in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E17FlashBack Flash Back]]. My initial thought was that if a speedster travels back only a day they merge with their past self, but anything longer like a year will cause them to coexist with their past self. However, ''that'' theory is shot down in [[Recap/TheFlash2014S2E23TheRaceOfHisLife The Race Of His Life]], when Barry creates a time remnant of himself by only going back seconds or even microseconds in time. So I'm quite confused. And man, don't even get me started on ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow''...
** The Speed Force is semi-sentient in its own right so it could be that speedsters either have some control over what they do when they travel back in time. Or the Speed Force itself can understand what they're trying to do.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: How to get to Earth-3?]]
* In the season 2 finale, Zoom says that Earth-1 just so happens to be the hub for all of the universes, so that any of the other universes can be reached by Earth-1. However, later in the episode, the real Jay Garrick leaves with Harry and Jesse to Earth-2 so he can go back to Earth-3. Huh? How can Earth-3 be reached from Earth-2 when it's established that Earth-1 is the hub?
** Earth 1 may be the hub, but the breaches that exist there right now only connect to Earth 2. Once on Earth 2, Harrison Wells will be able to figure out a way for Jay to get to Earth 3, which is why Jay went with them.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: Barry Allen is a billionaire.]]
* He owns STAR Labs. A company like STAR Labs would have patents worth billions of dollars generating revenue. We know that Thawne was making quite a bit of money based on his house. We know STAR Labs had government contracts. It's implied that STAR Labs is completely privately owned by Thawne, meaning that it's now completely owned by Barry. This means that Barry should be a billionaire. This completely shreds Wally's drag racing plot, since Barry should have been able to pay them off with his loose change. It does however aid with explaining how Barry's just causing millions in property damage with sonic booms down city streets, shattering hundreds of windows. STAR Labs is paying for it. But still, Barry's a billionaire and this hasn't been addressed.
** Barry hasn't really thought about it. Likely Caitlin or Cisco (my money's on the former) had already been at least familiar with the financial operation and has been handling it through Barry's heroics as well.
** The accelerator accident most likely saddled STAR Labs with enough liabilities to offset its assets. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they already declared bankruptcy and reorganized after settling all the lawsuits during Barry's coma. So while Barry may now be the owner of that corporation, its net value may be very low indeed. Also, just because STAR Labs ''might'' have money it doesn't necessarily mean that ''Barry'' does. A lot depends on how the corporation is structured, financed and run. It would be the kind of dick move a supervillain would pull to arrange things so that Barry has the resources to operate as the Flash but gets no personal benefit and a lot of headaches out of it.
[[/folder]]
[[folder: 5.3 mile running start versus dodging bullets...]]
* So, in season 1 episode 6, it's established that Barry needs a running start of at least 5.3 miles to hit Mach 1.1 (837 MPH, roughly 1,230 feet per second) and deliver a supersonic punch. So how the hell is he routinely able to dodge, intercept or CATCH bullets moving that fast or faster? Case in point, in season 1 episode 12, Peek-A-Boo's boyfriend fires at Barry with a Desert Eagle chambered in .357 Magnum, from a distance of maybe 15 feet, while Barry has his back to the shooter. That slug cleared the muzzle at no less than 1,250 FPS, and yet Barry is still able to react fast enough to prevent it from doing more than punching a hole in the collar of his suit and giving him a nasty flesh wound.
** He probably subconsciously uses the Speed Force to drain the speed from the bullets somewhat. Running speed and reaction speed are two entirely different things however. Nobody can run 100 mph, but fastballs can be hit, dodged and caught. Catching that bullet behind him was an extreme case that seems to break the skill barrier he had at the time but we should also compare this to Arrow. Catching arrows mid flight isn't even presented as particularly difficult if you've got the skillset in the first place, by comparison Flash only barely caught that bullet.
[[/folder]]
