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More of a meta question instead of Fridge Logic about the plot


[[folder: Should Norman and Harry Osborn appear in the future?]]
* Toomes is like Norman Osborn/Green Goblin in many ways, and I doubt it is unintentional. He is the father of one of Peter's friends. The scene with Peter and Toomes in the car reminds me of Norman and Peter at the dinner table scene in the first Spider-man movie. Doesn't his "wings" remind you of the goblin glider? Don't get me wrong, I like Norman and Harry, but they already did the whole "my-friend's-dad-is-my nemesis-and-I-must-So-stop-him" bit.
** They can still do it, and explore a different angle. The Green Goblin is a very iconic villain, that goes way beyond the "father-of-my-best-friend-is-a-villain" gimmick. But, since they tried iterations of the Osborns in the first two versions of the Spider-Man movies, I would imagine they'll wait a good while to try it again.
** Green Goblin is not the first or only Spider-Man villain with a personal connection to the hero (first would be a guy called Frederick Foswell, and others include Miles Warren, Curt Connors, and even Dr. Octopus who briefly tried to romance Aunt May). Part of the soap opera dynamic of the Lee-Romita era and what came after meant that Peter attracted many of these. I am sure that if they are going to bring Osborn they would want to do the Osborn of the recent comics, the one who's a Marvel-wide villain who is scaled up to fight Tony Stark (who let's fact it, has had a terrible RoguesGallery) because that's a version of the character that nobody has yet seen and it better fits the SharedUniverse thing Marvel wants. Also they would have to update Osborn's shtick, because in an age of drones and Starktech, a guy flying around a glider in New York is not as scary or impressive. That's Osborn's problem he's both too high profile and too low-tech to be a big villain, especially if they want to keep Spider-Man as a SmallStepsHero and make his films stand out in the MCU. And yeah, I think people have enough Osborn-fatigue after the Raimi and the Webb movies (where a good chunk of it was the tragic story of ''their family decline'' and not Spider-Man's story), and besides the main role played by Osborn, as the connective thread and corporation supplying and creating tech for all the villains (as in the Amazing movies) is played by Stark, SHIELD, Hydra, or Chitauri. So there's no real ''need'' for him at this point.
*** Chances are, they will go the Ultimate Spider-man route, and have Norman and Harry turn into an actual goblins. It's the only I can see them be actual threats to Stark and Spider-man.
*** Ultimate Goblin is not very popular and it's way too Hulk [=/=] Blonsky like.
*** Classic Goblin could still potentially pose a threat. After all, Cap took down Tony at the end of ''Civil War''. Imagine a guy who has the same super strength to do that, but no qualms about throwing a pumpkin grenade on his opponent after he has him on the ropes, and on top of all that, has means of flight.
** While Norman isn't the only villain with a personal connection to Spider-Man, a big factor of his appeal is that his Halloween gimmick mixed with his explicit mental illness and/or CompleteMonster morality make him arguably a little more dramatically interesting than a lot of the greed-driven, career super-criminals with an AnimalMotif Spidey has in his rogues gallery. There's still a lot that could be done with the character, especially with the potential to make him the EvilCounterpart to Tony.
* If anything, it looks like they're setting up the Scorpion - and possibly a whole Sinister Six - to be the villains in subsequent films.
* This is where the legal red tape kicks in...someone from Marvel Studios said that they won't be reusing villains from the Sam Raimi/Marc Webb movies in the MCU Spider-Man movies, and this was while ''[[Film/Venom2018 Venom]]'' (a Marvel Studios-less Sony movie starring a villain from the Sam Raimi movies) was in production. Thus, we can surmise that Marvel Studios legally CAN'T use Norman Osborn or Harry Osborn, since Sony has dibs on both of them for their "Spider-Man Without Spider-Man" cinematic universe.
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** It's possible that Tony only told him who he knew they were fighting against, while he may have only alluded to T'Challa as being on ally without going into too much detail about his identity. Given that T'Challa was focused on getting Bucky because he thought he killed his father, he probably wasn't in the mood to partake in casual conversation with Peter for him to find out more about him.
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[[folder:"Who's that new guy?"]]
* Who IS the new guy that Peter's referring to in Berlin? The only people currently on the field are Tony, Cap, Nat, Rhodey, and T'Challa. The first three are ruled out, since Peter identifies them by name. It's probably not Rhodey, since he's an established Avenger and Peter surely knows about him already. This leaves T'Challa as the most likely candidate... except he and Peter are on the same team. So if he's the one, this raises another question: Did Tony not bother to acquaint them with each other before the big fight? Sure, there was a time crunch, and things worked out okay enough in the end, but Tony's apparent failure to at least tell Peter "The black cat-man's on our side" could have been wildly detrimental to teamwork.
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** Possibly their biggest concern is figuring out what happened, and they'll kick out the fires afterwards.



* When Peter inadvertently botches the sting operation and Tony gets pissed comes to confiscate the suit with him axting shocked and betrayed that Peter hacked the suit to mess around with it... But a few scenes earlier Tony congratulates Peter for saving the Washington Monument when a cursory glance at news footage would've shown Peter hacked the suit to get the gliding function. So why didn't Tony confiscate the suit earlier?

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* When Peter inadvertently botches the sting operation and Tony gets pissed comes to confiscate the suit with him axting acting shocked and betrayed that Peter hacked the suit to mess around with it... But a few scenes earlier Tony congratulates Peter for saving the Washington Monument when a cursory glance at news footage would've shown Peter hacked the suit to get the gliding function. So why didn't Tony confiscate the suit earlier? earlier?
** Difference is, Peter did fairly well during the Washington thing. It may be that Tony was willing to let the hacking slide as long as Peter shows competence, but he panicked when he saw Peter nearly get himself and lots of others killed on the ferries. Or possibly he was only paying partial attention to the footage and missed the part where Peter was gliding around.
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* In the second trailer we see Peter and Ned along with other students in PT outfits watching a fitness video starring Steve Rogers in his first Avengers costume that was presumably made a few years ago. But isn't Steve Rogers a known fugitive wanted by the United Nations and the United States as Peter directly references his part in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar''? Wouldn't that make him politically inappropriate for a school to use as an example for kids to follow?

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* In the second trailer trailer, we see Peter and Ned along with other students in PT outfits watching a fitness video starring Steve Rogers in his first Avengers costume that was presumably made a few years ago. But isn't Steve Rogers a known fugitive wanted by the United Nations and the United States as Peter directly references his part in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar''? Wouldn't that make him politically inappropriate for a school to use as an example for kids to follow?

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** Maybe Shocker was already there on a special overtime assignment for his boss. "My daughter has date to her school's homecoming dance. Bring your gauntlet and look scary so her date behaves himself. Make sure you don't hurt the kid." He was on his way inside to keep an eye on things. Then the plan changes.

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** Maybe Shocker was already there on a special overtime assignment for his boss. "My daughter has a date to her school's homecoming dance. Bring your gauntlet and look scary so her date behaves himself. Make sure you don't hurt the kid." He was on his way inside to keep an eye on things. Then the plan changes.



** You prevent Toomes from taking care of his family, you are dead. Don't fool yourself : The antigravity gun was just to immobilize the Shocker until his life was terminated by a gun shot or a knife. Here, he dies in a very efficient way, so taking the wrong gun was a lucky mistake for Toomes.

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** You prevent Toomes from taking care of his family, you are dead. Don't fool yourself : yourself: The antigravity gun was just to immobilize the Shocker until his life was terminated by a gun shot so Toomes could shoot or a knife.stab him. Here, he dies in a very efficient way, so taking the wrong gun was a lucky mistake for Toomes.


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** Or maybe the helicopter cops were very big fans of J. Jonah Jameson.


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** Brice wanted Toomes to change his mind and keep him on the crew. Alternatively, he wanted hush money.
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** OK, I think I've found the answer. There was no mess up. Hector Navarro explained the timeline in the comments of an SJ News video, so I'll just shamelessly leave what he said here: "''Film/TheAvengers2012'' ''didn't'' take place in 2012. ''Film/IronMan1'' ''did'' take place in 2008. Six months later was ''Film/IronMan2'', in 2008/2009. Along with ''Film/TheIncredibleHulk'' and ''Film/{{Thor}}'', all three of these movies take place in the same week. And a bit after that, Nick Fury finds Steve Rogers thawed out from his suspended animation. Avengers took place about a year after that, in 2009/2010. Cut to ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' where Vision says "In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man..." which yeah, puts that at 2016. ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' took place during and a few months after that, in 2016/2017. So if ''Film/TheAvengers2012'' took place in 2009, eight years later could be 2017. And Peter Parker would've been seven or eight years old in ''Film/IronMan2'', during 2008/2009."

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** OK, I think I've found the answer. There was no mess up. Hector Navarro explained the timeline in the comments of an SJ News video, so I'll just shamelessly leave what he said here: "''Film/TheAvengers2012'' ''didn't'' take place in 2012. ''Film/IronMan1'' ''did'' take place in 2008. Six months later was ''Film/IronMan2'', in 2008/2009. Along with ''Film/TheIncredibleHulk'' ''Film/TheIncredibleHulk2008'' and ''Film/{{Thor}}'', all three of these movies take place in the same week. And a bit after that, Nick Fury finds Steve Rogers thawed out from his suspended animation. Avengers took place about a year after that, in 2009/2010. Cut to ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' where Vision says "In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man..." which yeah, puts that at 2016. ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'' took place during and a few months after that, in 2016/2017. So if ''Film/TheAvengers2012'' took place in 2009, eight years later could be 2017. And Peter Parker would've been seven or eight years old in ''Film/IronMan2'', during 2008/2009."
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* In the second trailer we see Peter and Ned along with other students in PT outfits watching an fitness video starring Steve Rogers in his first Avengers costume that was presumably made a few years ago. But isn't Steve Rogers a known fugitive wanted by the United Nations and the United States as Peter directly references his part in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar''? Wouldn't that make him politically inappropriate for an school to use as an example for kids to follow?

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* In the second trailer we see Peter and Ned along with other students in PT outfits watching an a fitness video starring Steve Rogers in his first Avengers costume that was presumably made a few years ago. But isn't Steve Rogers a known fugitive wanted by the United Nations and the United States as Peter directly references his part in ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar''? Wouldn't that make him politically inappropriate for an a school to use as an example for kids to follow?



** Plus, "Captain America fitness challenge" is a lot more inspiring than "some random dude fitness challenge."

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** Plus, "Captain America fitness challenge" Fitness Challenge" is a lot more inspiring than "some random dude fitness challenge."
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[[folder:Tony didn't know already?]]
* When Peter inadvertently botches the sting operation and Tony gets pissed comes to confiscate the suit with him axting shocked and betrayed that Peter hacked the suit to mess around with it... But a few scenes earlier Tony congratulates Peter for saving the Washington Monument when a cursory glance at news footage would've shown Peter hacked the suit to get the gliding function. So why didn't Tony confiscate the suit earlier?
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** Plus right side or wrong side of the accords Cap is still an icon of what determination and dedication can get a person especially in keeping healthy.
** And seriously, is anyone involved really going to care? It's a fitness video made back in the first Avenger movie days based on the outfit, so it's already a few years old. Is anyone in a public schools gym curriculum going to care enough to pay for a new video and is anyone in the government really care enough to stamp out ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING with Cap's face on it?

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** Plus Plus, right side or wrong side of the accords Accords, Cap is still an icon of what determination and dedication can get a person person, especially in keeping healthy.
** And seriously, is anyone involved really going to care? It's a fitness video made back in the first Avenger movie days based on the outfit, so it's already a few years old. Is anyone in a public schools school's gym curriculum going to care enough to pay for a new video and is anyone in the government really going care enough to stamp out ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING with Cap's face on it?



*** The gym teacher actually comments on this. He says something like "So I guess this guy's a war criminal or something now, but...whatever"

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*** The gym teacher actually comments on this. He says something like "So I guess this guy's a war criminal or something now, but...whatever"whatever."



*** That's actually probably ''exactly'' why the gym teacher states that the school is requiring him to show the videos. People might have actually raised complaints or made an order for the videos to be removed from schools, and the principal likely replied, "You know this so-called 'war criminal' served alongside my grandfather and probably even saved his life at some point, right? Shove off." Given how much Cap made efforts to track down those of his war-mates and old friends still alive, it actually wouldn't surprise me if the whole point of doing the "Captain America's Fitness Challenge" videos was at least partially a direct favor to him out of goodwill to his grandfather.

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*** That's actually probably ''exactly'' why the gym teacher states that the school is requiring him to show the videos. People might have actually raised complaints or made an order for the videos to be removed from schools, and the principal likely replied, "You know this so-called 'war criminal' served alongside my grandfather and probably even saved his life at some point, right? Shove off." Given how much Cap made efforts to track down those of his war-mates and old friends still alive, it actually wouldn't surprise me if the whole point of doing the "Captain America's Fitness Challenge" videos was at least partially a direct favor to him out of goodwill to his the principal's grandfather.
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Correct some errors.


[[folder:Cops in the helicopter not knowing who Spider-man is]]
* Why are they shooting at him? Let's assume those cops in the helicopter don't watch Website/YouTube, Peter must have been featured on the news dozens of times. I can't see a guy web-slinging around the city and fighting crooks, and not be on the 6 o' clock news. This Spider-man is not Batman where he is rarely seen by civilians, and operates mostly at night.

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[[folder:Cops in the helicopter not knowing who Spider-man Spider-Man is]]
* Why are they shooting at him? Let's assume those cops in the helicopter don't watch Website/YouTube, Peter must have been featured on the news dozens of times. I can't see a guy web-slinging around the city and fighting crooks, and not be on the 6 o' clock news. This Spider-man Spider-Man is not Batman where he is rarely seen by civilians, and operates mostly at night.



[[folder: Kill Spiderman, and Then What?]]
* Is anyone else madly curious about how Toomes would have handled the aftermath if he had killed Spiderman on homecoming night? Of course, let's assume that Peter's body would have been found and identified. Aunt May would be devastated to learn that her nephew was risking his life and lost it senselessly. Tony would have gone on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge to find Toomes, and likely would find him with all the Stark resources. Liz would have learned that her homecoming date had been killed because he was Spiderman, and that her father was the murderer. Toomes knows about the Stark internship, so maybe he would prepare for Tony's backlash. How would he explain to his baby girl, "I killed him because he was threatening our source of income that is technically illegal and dangerous?"

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[[folder: Kill Spiderman, Spider-Man, and Then What?]]
* Is anyone else madly curious about how Toomes would have handled the aftermath if he had killed Spiderman Spider-Man on homecoming night? Of course, let's assume that Peter's body would have been found and identified. Aunt May would be devastated to learn that her nephew was risking his life and lost it senselessly. Tony would have gone on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge to find Toomes, and likely would find him with all the Stark resources. Liz would have learned that her homecoming date had been killed because he was Spiderman, Spider-Man, and that her father was the murderer. Toomes knows about the Stark internship, so maybe he would prepare for Tony's backlash. How would he explain to his baby girl, "I killed him because he was threatening our source of income that is technically illegal and dangerous?"



*** How would Stark know? Tony saw Fury show up in a mothballed old helicarrier with operatives who were dressed casually. As if he pulled them from civilian life and into a rescue mission. Nothing about their arrival indicated that SHIELD was back in action. Only that it’s former leader showed up with former agents to save the day.

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*** How would Stark know? Tony saw Fury show up in a mothballed old helicarrier with operatives who were dressed casually. As if he pulled them from civilian life and into a rescue mission. Nothing about their arrival indicated that SHIELD was back in action. Only that it’s its former leader showed up with former agents to save the day.
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** Even if they knew who Spider-Man was, [[RealityEnsues anyone can wear a costume and wear suction-cup gloves]]. "Identify Yourself" is probably shorthand for "prove that you're the guy who worked with the Avengers in Germany and explain what you're doing here." Plus, considering how the NYC news vilified other vigilantes like Daredevil, Frank Castle, and Luke Cage at various points, anyone watching that media would be led to believe that Spider-Man's a menace.

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** Even if they knew who Spider-Man was, [[RealityEnsues [[SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome anyone can wear a costume and wear suction-cup gloves]]. "Identify Yourself" is probably shorthand for "prove that you're the guy who worked with the Avengers in Germany and explain what you're doing here." Plus, considering how the NYC news vilified other vigilantes like Daredevil, Frank Castle, and Luke Cage at various points, anyone watching that media would be led to believe that Spider-Man's a menace.

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seems to be a separate question


* Is there any real reason Peter Parker chose to film his video diary during the Civil War in 4:3?



** Hey, give them some credit. I didn't know that, so maybe the writers didn't as well.

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** Hey, give them some credit. I didn't know that, so maybe the writers or characters didn't as well.


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[[folder:Camera quality]]
* Is there any real reason Peter Parker chose to film his video diary during the Civil War in 4:3?
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[[folder:Why Steal a Car??]]
* I get that the MCU inserts a number of car commercials in their films, but why in the world does Spidey steal a car at Homecoming? He's Spider-Man! TWHIP THWIP.
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** Endgame also shows exactly what the feature was for. Killing alien monsters, or Ultron bots or the main other world ending disasters the Avengers face where lethal force is both justified and needed. Peter might want to bring thugs and human criminals in peacefully and he's got the right idea of it, but if he showed up the battle of New York trying to web up and arrest each Chitauri he'd just risk getting him or another hero killed. And given how Peter suggests they blow Ebony Maw into space I think even he realizes there's a time and place for arrests and a time for force. You can't arrest killbots and dangerous aliens. Judicial system has no place for that anyway.
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** Hey, give them some credit. I didn't know that, so maybe the writers didn't as well.
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** ''Actual'' [[https://thedirect.com/article/marvel-official-mcu-spider-man-web-fluid-formula web fluid]], it seems like. Although of course you need SuperStrength to be able to use it.

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** Also, this ''really'' needs to be emphasized: School and state bureaucracies often make molasses in January look like the Flash. I would genuinely not be surprised if they're still showing that video post-''Endgame'' because no one's gotten around to filming a new one.
** Plus, "Captain America fitness challenge" is a lot more inspiring than "some random dude fitness challenge."



** Even if they knew who Spider-Man was, [[ComicBook/RealityEnsues anyone can wear a costume and wear suction-cup gloves]]. "Identify Yourself" is probably shorthand for "prove that you're the guy who worked with the Avengers in Germany and explain what you're doing here." Plus, considering how the NYC news vilified other vigilantes like Daredevil, Frank Castle, and Luke Cage at various points, anyone watching that media would be led to believe that Spider-Man's a menace.

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** Even if they knew who Spider-Man was, [[ComicBook/RealityEnsues [[RealityEnsues anyone can wear a costume and wear suction-cup gloves]]. "Identify Yourself" is probably shorthand for "prove that you're the guy who worked with the Avengers in Germany and explain what you're doing here." Plus, considering how the NYC news vilified other vigilantes like Daredevil, Frank Castle, and Luke Cage at various points, anyone watching that media would be led to believe that Spider-Man's a menace.
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*** According to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., the Accords don't apply only to the Avengers; all "enhanced individuals" have a legal requirement to register and sign the Accords.
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[[folder:Fire on the beach]]
* At the end, when Happy and various other people are walking around amid the wreckage of the plane, there are little fires burning everywhere... on a beach. With sand all around, which just happens to be one of the best things for putting out fires. Why does no one think to kick some sand on the flames to smother them?
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** While Spidey catches Cap off-guard at the start of the fight, it's pretty clear that once Cap adjusts, Peter doesn't have a chance. Peter has one trump card in the fight (his webs) and Cap is able to turn it against him once he's had a couple seconds to think about it. Without that, Peter is a strong but inexperienced kid, up against a strong adult with years of life-and-death fighting behind him.

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** While Spidey catches Cap off-guard at the start of the fight, it's pretty clear that once Cap adjusts, Peter doesn't have a chance. Peter has one trump card in the fight (his webs) and Cap is able to turn it against him once he's had a couple seconds to think about it. Without that, Peter is a strong but inexperienced kid, up against a strong adult with years of life-and-death fighting behind him. Also, more to the point, Cap ends ''Civil War'' by laying out ''Iron Man''. Naturally Tony's going to think if ''he'' lost a fight to Cap, so would Peter.
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My only knowledge of that comic comes from Atop The Fourth Wall, but they were only friends in it.


** Depending on the writers, sometimes May and Peter's mother are indeed sisters who each married a Parker brother. Like in ''ComicBook/{{Trouble}}''...

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** Depending on the writers, sometimes May and Peter's mother are indeed sisters who each married a Parker brother. Like in ''ComicBook/{{Trouble}}''...
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** While Spidey catches Cap off-guard at the start of the fight, it's pretty clear that once Cap adjusts, Peter doesn't have a chance. Peter has one trump card in the fight (his webs) and Cap is able to turn it against him once he's had a couple seconds to think about it. Without that, Peter is a strong but inexperienced kid, up against a strong adult with years of life-and-death fighting behind him.
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** Some of the cargo may be susceptible to pressure changes, which would mean that keeping the pressure equal is important to Toomes to preserve its value.
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** You're expecting way too quick, elaborate thinking from Parker here, when he's clearly caught off-guard. We already saw how he reacted the first time he was caught, by Ned, which was to just go, "[[BlatantLies No I'm not!]]" and then immediately admit it.
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** ''Film/AvengersEndgame'' further disproves the "8 years later" time card. The film shows via large text that the ''The Avengers'' took place in 2012, ''Thor: The Dark World'' took place in 2013, and ''Guardians of the Galaxy'' took place in 2014, all the years the films were released in (the year for ''Guardians'' was already implied by the prologue, which was stated to take place in 1988 and the main story was shown to take place 26 years after that). 2014 Ebony Maw mentions that present day Nebula's time signature came from nine years in the future, putting the present day events of ''Endgame'' in 2023, which was specifically shown to be five years after Thanos' snap. That puts ''Infinity War'' as taking place in 2018, the year it was released, matching up with Tony's "six years" comment. So ''Homecoming'' could not take place eight years after ''The Avengers'', which would be 2020, as that would be during the five year period in which half of all life in the universe, including Spider-Man, had been snapped out of existence.

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** ''Film/AvengersEndgame'' further disproves the "8 years later" time card. The film shows via large text that the ''The Avengers'' took place in 2012, ''Thor: The Dark World'' took place in 2013, and ''Guardians of the Galaxy'' took place in 2014, all the years the films were released in (the year for ''Guardians'' was already implied by the prologue, which was stated to take place in 1988 and the main story was shown to take place 26 years after that). 2014 Ebony Maw mentions that present day Nebula's time signature came from nine years in the future, putting the present day events of ''Endgame'' in 2023, which was specifically shown to be five years after Thanos' snap. That puts ''Infinity War'' as taking place in 2018, the year it was released, matching up with Tony's "six years" comment. So ''Homecoming'' could not take place eight years after ''The Avengers'', which would be 2020, as that would be during the five year period in which half of all life in the universe, including Spider-Man, had been snapped out of existence.
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*** Say it's a sex thing. There is this girl at school who's REALLY into Spider-Man and he's spent way too much money on a replica to do things he'd rather not talk to his aunt about. There you go, there is a reason for the suit, reason for the guilt and more importantly a reason not to ask any follow up questions.
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** As seen in [[Film\Avengers:EndGame]] the definately built a kill feature into Peter's suits.

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** As seen in [[Film\Avengers:EndGame]] the Avengers Endgame Tony definately built a kill feature into Peter's suits.

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