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Changed line(s) 12 (click to see context) from:
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook inconsistenty or has this been addressed?
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** Dark Crisis has recently strongly implied if not outright revealed that Luficer is an avatar/creation of the Great Darkness, alongside beings like Trigon, and presumably characters like the First of the Fallen and New 52's Lucifer as well. What that says about Luficer's origins or free will is up for debate, but it does reconcile these multiple portrayals of [[SatanicArchetype what is ostensibly the same character;]] they all come from the same source and have similarities (which can extend to their names), but also differences.
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbookinconsistenty inconsistently or has this been addressed?
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook
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** If you must link it all up assume that the old DC universe still exists as a separate Creation to the New 52.
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Changed line(s) 12 (click to see context) from:
** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possibly able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.'' Important difference. Also Lucifer keeps having to do things that reduce or remove much of his power in order to achieve his goals. Basically sheer raw power is generally less important in this setting than how you can use it.
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** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possibly able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.'' Important difference. Also Lucifer keeps having to do things that reduce or remove much of his power in order to achieve his goals. Basically sheer raw power is generally less important in this setting than how you can (or can't) use it.it. As noted in the Gabriel section above an angel on Lucifer and Micheal's level got taken down by a minor demon and a mere human because they knew just how to play him. He was much, much more powerful than them but they were just a little bit smarter when they needed to be.
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Changed line(s) 12 (click to see context) from:
** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possible able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Also Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.''
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** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possible possibly able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Also Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.'''' Important difference. Also Lucifer keeps having to do things that reduce or remove much of his power in order to achieve his goals. Basically sheer raw power is generally less important in this setting than how you can use it.
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Changed line(s) 11 (click to see context) from:
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook inconsistenty or has this been addressed?
to:
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook inconsistenty or has this been addressed?addressed?
** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possible able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Also Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.''
** Power is dependant of circumstance in this set up. There are areas where Lucifer has no power, such as Yomi, and there are things he has less or no power over, such as when he requires Pharamond's help in order to travel to First World. To deal with a specific point you mentioned the Endless are not "utterly insignificant to him." In theory he's more powerful than them but in their own areas they can do things he cannot. If Lucifer confronted Morpheus in the dreaming he'd be utterly outclassed. Fenris is an incarnation of destruction (and possible able to embody it more than he should since Destruction of the Endless has left) so when acting in accordance with that he can do stuff Lucifer cannot. Similar limits cover many of his other interactions. He has no such limits in his own creation of course and has to be tricked there with the wing feathers thing. As to "If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought" leaving aside that he likely didn't want to do any such thing the Presence would not have allowed it. Also Lucifer is not second only to the Presence in power, Micheal is. Lucifer is second only in ''will.''
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** Exactly. Lucifer's time in the void, as well as his last conversation with Yaweh, imply that all of creation (including the void itself and any universes therein) are limited to the pages of the comic series and tie-in materials.
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** Exactly. Lucifer's time in the void, as well as his last conversation with Yaweh, imply that all of creation (including the void itself and any universes therein) are limited to the pages of the comic series and tie-in materials.materials.
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook inconsistenty or has this been addressed?
* If Lucifer is as powerful as he speculated to be, how can he even be affected by anything that happens in his storyline? Why does he need to ask people questions, if he probably already knows the answers? How can be affected by something like Fenris' rage if he is second to the Presence? Is his entire storyline just play-acting, or is he not as powerful as he claims to be? If he had this same level of power while he was the ruler of Hell, he could pretty easily secure Hell's victory over the rest of Creation with just a random thought. Even the Endless are utterly insignicant to him, and yet he asks if Sandman will join his realm to Hell? Seems like Lucifer could just do this through a simple act of will, does he even really desire this or is he just messing with Dream? Is this just comicbook inconsistenty or has this been addressed?
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** Possibly. It's also possible she ran into him after the series ended...which would be odd for her, given as she doesn't remember any of it. Otherwise Coyote was lying (which would be in character) or AbortedArc.
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** Possibly. It's also possible she ran into him after the series ended...which would be odd for her, given as she doesn't remember any of it. Otherwise Coyote was lying (which would be in character) or it's an AbortedArc.
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*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]
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*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel ''Hellblazer'', [[spoiler:Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]
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* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of New Earth's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer, Elaine, Michael and the orginal Presence (Yahweh) supposed to be Multiversal?
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* How is are this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, presence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Elaine-Presence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of New Earth's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence Presence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's its own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer, Elaine, Michael and the orginal original Presence (Yahweh) supposed to be Multiversal?
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**Exactly. Lucifer's time in the void, as well as his last conversation with Yaweh, imply that all of creation (including the void itself and any universes therein) are limited to the pages of the comic series and tie-in materials.
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Changed line(s) 8 (click to see context) from:
* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of New Earth's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer, Elaine, Michael and the orginal Presence (Yahweh) supposed to be Multiversal?
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* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of New Earth's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer, Elaine, Michael and the orginal Presence (Yahweh) supposed to be Multiversal?Multiversal?
** I hate to invoke Doyle but, "It's just a comic dude."
** I hate to invoke Doyle but, "It's just a comic dude."
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Changed line(s) 8 (click to see context) from:
* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of Earth One's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer and Elaine supposed to be Multiversal?
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* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of Earth One's New Earth's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer Lucifer, Elaine, Michael and Elaine the orginal Presence (Yahweh) supposed to be Multiversal?
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***** Constantine also [[spoiler:removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
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***** Constantine also [[spoiler:removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].]].
* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of Earth One's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer and Elaine supposed to be Multiversal?
* How is this Lucifer and the verse connected to the New 52? My theory is that the N52-Lucifer is a completely separate being, made again by the prescence, while "our" Lucifer is still out there in the void between the creations, doing his stuff. But then, what about the Elaine-Prescence? Did the reboot completely ignore her, even if she was the multiversal God for the last few years of Earth One's run? Is she still merged with the Multiverse, while the original Prescence came back? Or can we just assume that DC just decided to ignore the Sandman/Lucifer-events, and push it into it's own continuity? But then again, weren't Lucifer and Elaine supposed to be Multiversal?
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* Constantine also [[spoiler:removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
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[[spoiler:And Constantine also removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
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***** [[spoiler:And let's not forget Constantine removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
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**** Worse, actually. [[spoiler:Crushing Gabriel's heart didn't kill him, it sent him to Hell]].
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**** Worse, actually. [[spoiler:Crushing Gabriel's heart didn't kill him, it sent him to Hell]].Hell]].
*****[[spoiler:And let's not forget Constantine removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
*****[[spoiler:And let's not forget Constantine removes his wings. With a chainsaw.]].
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*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]
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*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]]]
**** Worse, actually. [[spoiler:Crushing Gabriel's heart didn't kill him, it sent him to Hell]].
**** Worse, actually. [[spoiler:Crushing Gabriel's heart didn't kill him, it sent him to Hell]].
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Changed line(s) 4 (click to see context) from:
** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also ''ComicBook/{{Hellblazer}}'' has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also ''ComicBook/{{Hellblazer}}'' has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.phase'.
*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]
*** To elaborate for those who haven't read Hellblazer [[spoiler: Gabriel managed to piss off John Constantine so John arranged for him to be seduced by a succubus without knowing what she was. She stole his heart and God threw him out. She and John were going to use the heart to control him to fight Satan (who is not Lucifer, different person altogether) who was gunning for John. As it was Satan got the heart before they could and used it to kill Gabriel.]]
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Changed line(s) 4 (click to see context) from:
** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also ''{{Hellblazer}}'' has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also ''{{Hellblazer}}'' ''ComicBook/{{Hellblazer}}'' has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also Hellblazer has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also Hellblazer ''{{Hellblazer}}'' has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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* What happened to Gabriel?
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* What happened to Gabriel?Gabriel?
** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also Hellblazer has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
** He's TheUnfavorite obviously. Also Hellblazer has the answer to that. I read a brilliant fic with Elaine and Duma finding him in some place after she gets over her 'Buddhist phase'.
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Changed line(s) 2 (click to see context) from:
** Possibly. It's also possible she ran into him after the series ended...which would be odd for her, given as she doesn't remember any of it. Otherwise Coyote was lying (which would be in character) or AbortedArc.
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** Possibly. It's also possible she ran into him after the series ended...which would be odd for her, given as she doesn't remember any of it. Otherwise Coyote was lying (which would be in character) or AbortedArc.AbortedArc.
*What happened to Gabriel?
*What happened to Gabriel?
