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*** Adding onto that, Gehrman was trapped in the Hunter's Dream. There's no way he could've met you prior to your arrival there.




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** I mean, you're already there, and you've been fighting him for quite sometime. Warrior's code suggests that once a fight has begun, it must end in one's defeat.



** The Scourge of Beasts being an actual disease is only heresay. You learn in the Hunter's Nightmare that the people in the Fishing Hamlet, people with actual magical ability, laid a curse on the Hunters, their children, so-on an so-forth. Anyone who becomes a Hunter subjects themselves to becoming a Beast eventually, until you put an end to the Nightmare. So, in the end, the Foreign Hunter succeeded in curing their ailments.

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** The Scourge of Beasts being an actual disease is only heresay.hearsay. You learn in the Hunter's Nightmare that the people in the Fishing Hamlet, people with actual magical ability, laid a curse on the Hunters, their children, so-on an so-forth. Anyone who becomes a Hunter subjects themselves to becoming a Beast eventually, until you put an end to the Nightmare. So, in the end, the Foreign Hunter succeeded in curing their ailments.




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** If Gascoigne is anything to go by, Hunters aren't "immune" to beasthood. The purpose of the endings, whichever one you pick, is to conclude your adventure and effectively save yourself from beasthood.



* It's okay, that confuses everyone.

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* It's okay, that confuses everyone.everyone.
* It's never made clear what's reality and what's fiction in the story, so it's a safe bet that much of what you're experiencing on the hunt exists in some vacuum.



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* Its internal name is '[=HalfBakedDevil=], and its Fresh Liver (a DummiedOut item that's basically an early version of Coldblood) describes it as 'incomplete false god', so the One Reborn is probably a failed attempt to create a man-made Great One out of all those corpses Yahar'gul has laying around.




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** The comics confirm that the Healing Church was active before Old Yharnam burned, and Blood Ministration was used to treat Ashen Blood.



* Another possibility is that those on the Hunt are those who already died. That the dream is memories and thoughts are those of the dead, remnants and whispers of those who perished.

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* Another possibility is that those on the Hunt are those who already died. That the dream is memories and thoughts are those of the dead, remnants and whispers of those who perished.perished.
* It's okay, that confuses everyone.


*** Another possibility is that the Hunt is causing the problems, but not because of the act itself. Rather the issue that exacerbates the Plague of beasts is from the emotions it teases out of those involved. Hatred, fear, revulsion, bloodlust, hopelessness and despair, rage and anger. Those may be what exacerbates the beast blood. Thus why clerics and church hunters are the most monstrous beasts. Because their hatred, their bloodlust, their loathing of the beasts is so intense that it worsens the mutation

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*** Another possibility is that the Hunt is causing the problems, but not because of the act itself. Rather the issue that exacerbates the Plague of beasts is from the emotions it teases out of those involved. Hatred, fear, revulsion, bloodlust, hopelessness and despair, rage and anger. Those may be what exacerbates the beast blood. Thus why clerics and church hunters are the most monstrous beasts. Because their hatred, their bloodlust, their loathing of the beasts is so intense that it worsens the mutation
mutation.
** The Hunt is somewhat of a vicious cycle; hunters are both using extra Old Blood to give themselves a leg up, and they're giving in to a beast-like mindset of hunting prey. Because of this, when they'd inevitably be turned into beasts they'd become even worse beasts who would require more effort (and blood) to defeat, and so on. The root of the problem is still the Healing Church's refusal to lay off the Old Blood and thus de-escalate the cycle.



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** The above is further confirmed in the Old Hunters DLC. Laurence was the founder and first Vicar of the Healing Church, and he's now in the Hunter's Nightmare as a Cleric Beast variant. I think the Bloodletting Beast in the Chalice Dungeons was originally supposed to be Laurence, but I get the impression the Chalice Dungeons are where the developers put the bosses they decided not to use in the main game.


This is something that has confused me for a while, the entire game takes place inside a dream, an eternal nightmare to trap the residents in an endless hunt for beasts while becoming beasts, such is the curse that the residents of the Fishing Village inflicted on them, so apart from (possibly) the Doctor at the start, is the entire city just devoid of life in reality, or at least everyone kept in an eternal sleep?

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This is something that has confused me for a while, the entire game takes place inside a dream, an eternal nightmare to trap the residents in an endless hunt for beasts while becoming beasts, such is the curse that the residents of the Fishing Village inflicted on them, so apart from (possibly) the Doctor at the start, is the entire city just devoid of life in reality, or at least everyone kept in an eternal sleep?sleep?
* Another possibility is that those on the Hunt are those who already died. That the dream is memories and thoughts are those of the dead, remnants and whispers of those who perished.




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\n*** Another possibility is that the Hunt is causing the problems, but not because of the act itself. Rather the issue that exacerbates the Plague of beasts is from the emotions it teases out of those involved. Hatred, fear, revulsion, bloodlust, hopelessness and despair, rage and anger. Those may be what exacerbates the beast blood. Thus why clerics and church hunters are the most monstrous beasts. Because their hatred, their bloodlust, their loathing of the beasts is so intense that it worsens the mutation


* If we think about it literally, Humans and Beasts have red blood, where as Great Ones and Kins of the Cosmos bleed grey. There is only one being in the game that bleeds pure white (pale) blood: The Plain Doll. Likewise she is also the only being capable of infusing the player with Blood Echoes, thus strengthening them and it is impossible to truly kill her (If she is killed, she simply comes back when one re-enters the Hunter's Dream). The note says to "Seek Paleblood to transcend the Hunt" and no matter how (which ending) you choose to 'transcend' it, what is the most important thing to reaching that goal? Leveling up. And the only way to do this is through her. You may well have already found Paleblood from the beginning... it was just so obvious that neither the player nor their Hunter realized it.


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* If we think about it literally, Humans and Beasts have red blood, where as Great Ones and Kins of the Cosmos bleed grey. There is only one being in the game that bleeds pure white (pale) blood: The Plain Doll. Likewise Likewise, she is also the only being capable of infusing the player with Blood Echoes, thus strengthening them and it is impossible to truly kill her (If (if she is killed, she simply comes back when one re-enters the Hunter's Dream). The note says to "Seek Paleblood to transcend the Hunt" and no matter how (which ending) you choose to 'transcend' it, what is the most important thing to reaching that goal? Leveling up. And the only way to do this is through her. You may well have already found Paleblood from the beginning... it was just so obvious that neither the player nor their Hunter realized it.




** Actually, the Hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's wishes to give the Hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill -- the Church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane -- Hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.

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** Actually, the Hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's Willem's wishes to give the Hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill -- the Church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane -- Hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.



* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the Healing Church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the Beastly Scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.

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* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the Healing Church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Old Blood? Was the Beastly Scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.



** Yharnum's seclusion and isolation would presumably go some way towards keeping knowledge of the scourge from getting out, as well as the potential that anyone who tries to leave to spread word gets either strung up by a mob or killed by beasts. The Yharnamites being so bigoted against foreigners would also explain why they didn't go to other cities or countries for help with the beasts, they're too proud to stoop to the level of asking unworthy foreigners to come help them sort out their own mess. Also, initially the Hunts weren't the massive mobs we encounter in game, at first things were done discreetly by Gehrman and the Healing Church, presumably with the intention of keeping the beasts a secret to avoid panic. The fact that Ludwig started designing weapons which deviated from Gehrman's standards specifically in anticipation of larger and more dangerous beasts suggests that originally the beasts weren't as large and terrible as they became. So, for a while, they probably kept things under wraps until the Old Yharnum incident, at which point things spiraled out of control and Ludwig started recruiting anyone who'd fight into the Hunts, creating the torches and pitchforks mobs.

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** Yharnum's seclusion and isolation would presumably go some way towards keeping knowledge of the scourge Scourge from getting out, as well as the potential that anyone who tries to leave to spread word gets either strung up by a mob or killed by beasts. The Yharnamites being so bigoted against foreigners would also explain why they didn't go to other cities or countries for help with the beasts, beasts; they're too proud to stoop to the level of asking unworthy foreigners to come help them sort out their own mess. Also, initially the Hunts weren't the massive mobs we encounter in game, at first things were done discreetly by Gehrman and the Healing Church, presumably with the intention of keeping the beasts a secret to avoid panic. The fact that Ludwig started designing weapons which deviated from Gehrman's standards specifically in anticipation of larger and more dangerous beasts suggests that originally the beasts weren't as large and terrible as they became. So, for a while, they probably kept things under wraps until the Old Yharnum incident, at which point things spiraled out of control and Ludwig started recruiting anyone who'd fight into the Hunts, creating the torches and pitchforks mobs.



** The immunity likely comes from the Moon Presence. At the start of the game, the Player is given an injection of 'Yharnam Blood' as part of their contract and directly afterwards, they have a hallucination of a Beast rising out of a pool of blood. At this point, thanks to the injection, the Player has become infected by the Plague. However, in the vision, the Beast is driven off by the Messengers, representing the Moon Presence shielding the Player from the Plague's effects. This is why the Hunter's Dream and the Moon Presence are so vital to fighting the Plague. As far as we know, the Plague has no cure, and thanks to the widespread use of Blood Ministration, everyone in Yharnam is infected, meaning that any normal hunter of Beasts is doomed to either die to the Beasts or succumb to the Plague and become a Beast themselves. The Hunters that contract with the Moon Presence are the only ones with actual immunity to the Plague, plus they can't be permanently killed, thus they are only ones with any real hope of fighting it.
*** So an EldritchAbomination is actually ''preserving'' sanity for once? That's irony at it's finest; In a game dripping with madness and [[TheseAreThingsManWasNotMeantToKnow mind-numbing revelations]], the [[Franchise/CthulhuMythos Cthulhu-esque entity]] is the only one actively trying to keep people from going nuts (yes, even more so than the humans).

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** The immunity likely comes from the Moon Presence. At the start of the game, the Player is given an injection of 'Yharnam Blood' as part of their contract and directly afterwards, they have a hallucination of a Beast rising out of a pool of blood. At this point, thanks to the injection, the Player has become infected by the Plague. However, in the vision, the Beast is driven off by the Messengers, representing the Moon Presence shielding the Player from the Plague's effects. This is why the Hunter's Dream and the Moon Presence are so vital to fighting the Plague. As far as we know, the Plague has no cure, and thanks to the widespread use of Blood Ministration, everyone in Yharnam is infected, meaning that any normal hunter Hunter of Beasts is doomed to either die to the Beasts or succumb to the Plague and become a Beast themselves. The Hunters that contract with the Moon Presence are the only ones with actual immunity to the Plague, plus they can't be permanently killed, thus they are only ones with any real hope of fighting it.
*** So So, an EldritchAbomination is actually ''preserving'' sanity for once? That's irony at it's finest; its finest: In a game dripping with madness and [[TheseAreThingsManWasNotMeantToKnow mind-numbing revelations]], the [[Franchise/CthulhuMythos Cthulhu-esque entity]] is the only one actively trying to keep people from going nuts (yes, even more so than the humans).



* As for the Pthumerians, I can only speculate. Given that the red-robed maidens and Yharnam (the Queen, not the city) only appear after Rom's death, and that the chalice dungeons, containing even more living Pthumerians, imply that the city of Yharnam was built over the ruins of Pthumeru, maybe the Pthumerians were attempting a comeback, or even a coup.

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* As for the Pthumerians, I can only speculate. Given that the red-robed maidens and Yharnam (the Queen, not the city) only appear after Rom's death, and that the chalice dungeons, Chalice Dungeons, containing even more living Pthumerians, imply that the city of Yharnam was built over the ruins of Pthumeru, maybe the Pthumerians were attempting a comeback, or even a coup.



* My personal Theory is that The One Reborn was ''unfinished'', being that it is heavily connected to the school of Mensis, I theorised that it was actually meant to be a host body for the Brain of Mensis, The void where you meet the brain was actually The One Reborn's holding area, and your actions forced the school to release it early, before they could lower the Brain on to it.

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* My personal Theory theory is that The One Reborn was ''unfinished'', being that it is heavily connected to the school School of Mensis, Mensis. I theorised that it was actually meant to be a host body for the Brain of Mensis, The the void where you meet the brain was actually The One Reborn's holding area, and your actions forced the school School to release it early, before they could lower the Brain on to it.



The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the Healing Church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the Healing Church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?

* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the Plague, and would therefore have flocked to the Church once Blood Ministration became available.

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The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the Healing Church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill downhill before the use of the Healing Church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] Moon Presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?

* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam Yharnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, disease (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) delay), so would have been desperate for any cure for the Plague, and would therefore have flocked to the Church once Blood Ministration became available.


** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church and their powerful Blood Ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a Hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the Plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the Plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awaken again at night, the Hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the Hunt began.

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** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church Healing Church and their powerful Blood Ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a Hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the Plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the Plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awaken again at night, the Hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the Hunt began.



** Actually, the Hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's wishes to give the Hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill -- the church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane -- Hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.

to:

** Actually, the Hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's wishes to give the Hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill -- the church Church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane -- Hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.



It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and Hunters of the church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the Hunt loses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.

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It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and Hunters of the church Church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the Hunt loses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.



* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the Beastly Scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.

to:

* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's Healing Church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the Beastly Scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.



The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the healing church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the healing church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?

* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the Plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.

to:

The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the healing church, Healing Church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the healing church Healing Church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?

* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the Plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church Church once blood ministration Blood Ministration became available.


** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church and their powerful blood ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a Hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awaken again at night, the Hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the Hunt began.

to:

** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church and their powerful blood ministration, Blood Ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a Hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the plague.Plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the plague Plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awaken again at night, the Hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the Hunt began.



[[WMG: The how has Yharnam survived the plague for so long?]]

When I first started playing the game, I assumed that the plague was only a recent phenomenon, and that the player was arriving just when things were getting bad. Yet there are many indications that the plague and the Hunts have been going on for quite a long time, perhaps even for generations. If so, how has Yharnam been able to function for so long? With so much death occurring every single night, the place should have been utterly depopulated less than a few months after the plague hit. Furthermore, with the beasts and psychos preventing any sort of trade or aid taking place, what have the people been eating all this time? A city that large would need a massive amount of food (among other things) to function for even a day. Even the beasts should have been dead by starvation by the time you arrive.
* That depends on how you perceive the plague to begin with, in context of the multiple interpretations of the game's story. If you take the events of the city as a straightforward fact, then we can assume that nights of the Hunt aren't common, that they only happen once or twice per generation and afterwards the city has a reasonably long time to rebuild and recover, and the Blood Ministration is seen as too important to abandon Yharnam completely despite the potential risks. However, [[spoiler:if you choose to believe that the game actually takes place entirely in some half-real dream realm as many plot elements suggest, then the problem can be completely ignored. The city could exist in a semi-StableTimeLoop, or it could just be a collective nightmare of the inhabitants in the Waking World, among many other possible scenarios.]]

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[[WMG: The how How has Yharnam survived the plague Plague for so long?]]

When I first started playing the game, I assumed that the plague Plague was only a recent phenomenon, and that the player was arriving just when things were getting bad. Yet there are many indications that the plague Plague and the Hunts have been going on for quite a long time, perhaps even for generations. If so, how has Yharnam been able to function for so long? With so much death occurring every single night, the place should have been utterly depopulated less than a few months after the plague Plague hit. Furthermore, with the beasts and psychos preventing any sort of trade or aid taking place, what have the people been eating all this time? A city that large would need a massive amount of food (among other things) to function for even a day. Even the beasts should have been dead by starvation by the time you arrive.
* That depends on how you perceive the plague Plague to begin with, in context of the multiple interpretations of the game's story. If you take the events of the city as a straightforward fact, then we can assume that nights of the Hunt aren't common, that they only happen once or twice per generation and afterwards the city has a reasonably long time to rebuild and recover, and the Blood Ministration is seen as too important to abandon Yharnam completely despite the potential risks. However, [[spoiler:if you choose to believe that the game actually takes place entirely in some half-real dream realm as many plot elements suggest, then the problem can be completely ignored. The city could exist in a semi-StableTimeLoop, or it could just be a collective nightmare of the inhabitants in the Waking World, among many other possible scenarios.]]



** Sorry no, that beast skull really ''was'' Laurence's. WordOfGod via a Miyazaki interview confirms that he became a Bloodletting Beast variant while leading an excavation in the Chalice Dungeon's, the reason one talks about it is the same as to why Willem is just left alone on a dock while in a semi-vegetative state: it happened ages ago, shit like that has, is, or will happen to everybody else soon enough, and everyone knows it's not worth being distressed over, and the institution he founded has grown beyond being built entirely around it's first teaching authority. Laurence isn't seen because he's TheVoice, and Gehrman was sleep-talking during a nightmare.

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** Sorry no, that beast skull really ''was'' Laurence's. WordOfGod via a Miyazaki interview confirms that he became a Bloodletting Beast variant while leading an excavation in the Chalice Dungeon's, Dungeons, the reason one talks about it is the same as to why Willem is just left alone on a dock while in a semi-vegetative state: it happened ages ago, shit like that has, is, or will happen to everybody else soon enough, and everyone knows it's not worth being distressed over, and the institution he founded has grown beyond being built entirely around it's first teaching authority. Laurence isn't seen because he's TheVoice, and Gehrman was sleep-talking during a nightmare.



We know that [[spoiler:the Great Ones choose human women to act as surrogate mothers to their children]], but we don't know how or why they are selected. Is it something to do with power or insight, is it only those that try to contact them, is it related to their social standing, or is it chosen totally at random? Or what if every woman was [[spoiler:impregnated]] ([[FridgeHorror maybe even including the player character if they're a girl]]) and only a few could [[spoiler:carry it term?]]

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We know that [[spoiler:the Great Ones choose human women to act as surrogate mothers to their children]], but we don't know how or why they are selected. Is it something to do with power or insight, is it only those that try to contact them, is it related to their social standing, or is it chosen totally at random? Or what if every woman was [[spoiler:impregnated]] ([[FridgeHorror maybe even including the player character if they're a girl]]) and only a few could [[spoiler:carry it to term?]]



It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and Hunters of the church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the Hunt looses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.

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It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and Hunters of the church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the Hunt looses loses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.



** By the time the Hunt started to take place, the beast plague had already gotten a foothold in the city. Stopping the blood rituals and other occult activities would have stopped the spread, but it wouldn't have reversed the conditions of those already afflicted. The beasts ''needed'' to be hunted down, regardless of whether or not the source had been dealt with, yet the game treats this choice as an unwise and futile effort rather than a necessity.

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** By the time the Hunt started to take place, the beast plague Beast Plague had already gotten a foothold in the city. Stopping the blood rituals and other occult activities would have stopped the spread, but it wouldn't have reversed the conditions of those already afflicted. The beasts ''needed'' to be hunted down, regardless of whether or not the source had been dealt with, yet the game treats this choice as an unwise and futile effort rather than a necessity.



* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the beastly scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.
** No straight answer has been given. Personally I assumed you'd just "awoken" at an incredibly early hour so the city wasn't exactly busy, but there's not enough evidence to really confirm anything.

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* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the beastly scourge Beastly Scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.
** No straight answer has been given. Personally Personally, I assumed you'd just "awoken" at an incredibly early hour so the city wasn't exactly busy, but there's not enough evidence to really confirm anything.



* The Plague has already spread throughout every nook and cranny of Yharnam, so exposure is virtually unavoidable. It's apparently able to convert people into beasts within a matter of hours. The Hunter him/her self is injected with and drenched in gallons of tainted blood every hour, and some of the items you can use intentional aggravates the growing beasthood within them. It's not just the blood either; The insight system is potent enough to turn learned, strong willed men into jabbering lunatics, meaning that you are compromised both physically ''and'' mentally . Yet in spite of all this, the player character shrugs off all these influences like water off a duck's back. While The Hunter's Dream may protect you from death, it doesn't alter or preserve your fundamental nature, and Gehrman even accuses you of falling to the blood's influence should you choose to fight him. Heck, there's even an entire nightmare dedicated to holding (and packed to the brim with) blood-mad Hunters. Why are you so unique? The character creation allows for any number of backgrounds and strengths, so what's the common denominator that allows you alone to stave off the mutation and madness where all others failed?

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* The Plague has already spread throughout every nook and cranny of Yharnam, so exposure is virtually unavoidable. It's apparently able to convert people into beasts within a matter of hours. The Hunter him/her self is injected with and drenched in gallons of tainted blood every hour, and some of the items you can use intentional intentionally aggravates the growing beasthood within them. It's not just the blood either; The insight system is potent enough to turn learned, strong willed men into jabbering lunatics, meaning that you are compromised both physically ''and'' mentally . Yet in spite of all this, the player character shrugs off all these influences like water off a duck's back. While The Hunter's Dream may protect you from death, it doesn't alter or preserve your fundamental nature, and Gehrman even accuses you of falling to the blood's influence should you choose to fight him. Heck, there's even an entire nightmare dedicated to holding (and packed to the brim with) blood-mad Hunters. Why are you so unique? The character creation allows for any number of backgrounds and strengths, so what's the common denominator that allows you alone to stave off the mutation and madness where all others failed?



* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.

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* Given that Old Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, Plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.


Even if Gehrman was [[spoiler: not the only person in Yharnam at the time]], it is far more preferable for him to treat you given what [[spoiler: Iosefka does to her patients...]]

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** Even if Gehrman was [[spoiler: not the only person in Yharnam at the time]], it is far more preferable for him to treat you given what [[spoiler: Iosefka does to her patients...]]


So who exactly was the doctor you met who gave you the transfusion? Was that him the werewolf was chowing down on in the clinic later? Who threw the molotov at the bloody werewolf to save you? So many questions with no good answers...
** That was not a Doctor, that was Gehrman. And given events that happened toward in one of the endings, [[spoiler: He may have been the only other person in the city at the time, given the nature of the Hunter's Dream and his job as Watcher of the Dream is to sucker other people into it through an blood transfusion.]] [[spoiler: Gehrman]] may also have been the one to throw the Molotov the bloody Wolf Beast. The ending only happens once you have [[spoiler: killed two of the Great Ones who are in someway maintaining the Hunter's Dream(Rom and Mergo's Wet Nurse)]] which allows [[spoiler: Gehrman to release you as you are more trouble than you are worth.]]

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So who exactly was the doctor you met who gave you the transfusion? Was that him the werewolf was chowing down on in the clinic later? Who threw the molotov Molotov at the bloody werewolf to save you? So many questions with no good answers...
** That was not a Doctor, doctor, that was Gehrman. And given events that happened toward in one of the endings, [[spoiler: He he may have been the only other person in the city at the time, given the nature of the Hunter's Dream and his job as Watcher of the Dream is to sucker other people into it through an blood transfusion.]] [[spoiler: Gehrman]] may also have been the one to throw the Molotov at the bloody Wolf Beast. The ending only happens once you have [[spoiler: killed two of the Great Ones Ones, who are in someway some way maintaining the Hunter's Dream(Rom Dream (Rom and Mergo's Wet Nurse)]] Nurse)]], which allows [[spoiler: Gehrman to release you as you are more trouble than you are worth.]]



** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church and their powerful blood ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awake again at night, the hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the hunt began.

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** The doctor has no name, and was only there to transfuse your tainted blood with purer, Yharnam blood. At some point in the past, the player character contracted what we know as the beast virus. Hearing of the wonders of the healing church and their powerful blood ministration, they ventured to Yharnam to have that procedure performed. This procedure is what you see. The doctor has you sign a contract which binds you as a hunter Hunter to help locate and destroy the source of the plague. This is how you become a Hunter. He tells you as he is about to perform the operation that "Whatever happens, you may think it all a bad dream." which is exactly what happens. You then dream a werewolf dripping with blood as a manifestation of your illness reaching out to you before the plague is burnt away by the healing properties of Yharnam's blood. The messengers then crawl upon you to claim you fully as a Hunter, before you awake awaken again at night, the hunt Hunt having begun. This doctor would have scurried off inside before the hunt Hunt began.



*** The person who gives you a blood transfusion at the beginning was not Gehrman. He looks nothing like Gehrman, and the credits have someone listed called the "Fake Doctor" or something like that. Likely he was from outside the Nightmare.
*** That raises some rather Fridge Horror that [[spoiler: The Great Ones have servants in the real world to draw more Hunters into the Hunter's Dream.]]
*** Other sources say Imposter Doctor is the Choir woman who replaced Iosefka and turned all the people set there into the Celestial Mobs. Has anyone done a side by side comparison of doctor at the beginning and Gehrman?

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*** The person who gives you a blood transfusion at the beginning was not Gehrman. He looks nothing like Gehrman, and the credits have someone listed called the "Fake Doctor" or something like that. Likely Likely, he was from outside the Nightmare.
*** That raises some rather Fridge Horror that [[spoiler: The the Great Ones have servants in the real world to draw more Hunters into the Hunter's Dream.]]
*** Other sources say Imposter Doctor is the Choir woman who replaced Iosefka and turned all the people set sent there into the Celestial Mobs. Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the doctor at the beginning and Gehrman?



The note at the beginning tells you to seek paleblood to transcend the hunt. Then later, you find [[spoiler: a note in Yahar'gul that says the sky is paleblood]]... What is paleblood? Is it mentioned besides those two times? Does it show up?
* Paleblood may refer to the [[spoiler: Thirds of the Umbilical Cord. Especially the one from the Abandoned Work Shop which directly references the Pale Moon that conceived the Hunter's Dream. The note may be the only clue in game as to how to obtain the third ending as You can escape the dream, or become the new watcher but to truly transcend the dream you need to consume the cords. The paleblood may be referring the fluids left inside the cords though that is just speculation.]]

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The note at the beginning tells you to seek paleblood to transcend the hunt.Hunt. Then later, you find [[spoiler: a note in Yahar'gul that says the sky is paleblood]]... What is paleblood? Is it mentioned besides those two times? Does it show up?
* Paleblood may refer to the [[spoiler: Thirds of the Umbilical Cord. Especially the one from the Abandoned Work Shop which directly references the Pale Moon that conceived the Hunter's Dream. The note may be the only clue in game as to how to obtain the third ending as You can escape the dream, or become the new watcher but to truly transcend the dream you need to consume the cords. The paleblood Paleblood may be referring the fluids left inside the cords though that is just speculation.]]



* If we think about it literally, Humans and Beasts have red blood, where as Great Ones and Kins of the Cosmos bleed grey. There is only one being in the game that bleeds pure white (pale) blood: The Plain Doll. Likewise she is also the only being capable of infusing the player with Blood Echoes, thus strengthening them and it is impossible to truly kill her (If she is killed, she simply comes back when one re-enters the Hunter's Dream). The note says to "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt" and no matter how (which ending) you choose to 'transcend' it, what is the most important thing to reaching that goal? Leveling up. And the only way to do this is through her. You may well have already found Paleblood from the beginning... it was just so obvious that neither the player nor their hunter realized it.


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* If we think about it literally, Humans and Beasts have red blood, where as Great Ones and Kins of the Cosmos bleed grey. There is only one being in the game that bleeds pure white (pale) blood: The Plain Doll. Likewise she is also the only being capable of infusing the player with Blood Echoes, thus strengthening them and it is impossible to truly kill her (If she is killed, she simply comes back when one re-enters the Hunter's Dream). The note says to "Seek Paleblood to transcend the hunt" Hunt" and no matter how (which ending) you choose to 'transcend' it, what is the most important thing to reaching that goal? Leveling up. And the only way to do this is through her. You may well have already found Paleblood from the beginning... it was just so obvious that neither the player nor their hunter Hunter realized it.




When I first started playing the game, I assumed that the plague was only a recent phenomenon, and that the player was arriving just when things were getting bad. Yet there are many indications that the plague and the hunts have been going on for quite a long time, perhaps even for generations. If so, how has Yharnam been able to function for so long? With so much death occurring every single night, the place should have been utterly depopulated less than a few months after the plague hit. Furthermore, with the beasts and phychos preventing any sort of trade or aid taking place, what have the people been eating all this time? A city that large would need a massive amount of food (among other things) to function for even a day. Even the beasts should have been dead by starvation by the time you arrive.
* That depends on how you perceive the plague to begin with, in context of the multiple interpretations of the game's story. If you take the events of the city as a straightforward fact, then we can assume that nights of the Hunt aren't common, that they only happen once or twice per generation and afterwards the city has a reasonably long time to rebuild and recover, and the Blood Ministration is seen as too important to abandon Yharnam completely despite of the potential risks. However, [[spoiler:if you choose to believe that the game actually takes place entirely in some half-real dream realm as many plot elements suggest, then the problem can be completely ignored. The city could exist in a semi-StableTimeLoop, or it could just be a collective nightmare of the inhabitants in the Waking World, among many other possible scenarios.]]
** Actually, the hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's wishes to give the hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill- the church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane- hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.

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When I first started playing the game, I assumed that the plague was only a recent phenomenon, and that the player was arriving just when things were getting bad. Yet there are many indications that the plague and the hunts Hunts have been going on for quite a long time, perhaps even for generations. If so, how has Yharnam been able to function for so long? With so much death occurring every single night, the place should have been utterly depopulated less than a few months after the plague hit. Furthermore, with the beasts and phychos psychos preventing any sort of trade or aid taking place, what have the people been eating all this time? A city that large would need a massive amount of food (among other things) to function for even a day. Even the beasts should have been dead by starvation by the time you arrive.
* That depends on how you perceive the plague to begin with, in context of the multiple interpretations of the game's story. If you take the events of the city as a straightforward fact, then we can assume that nights of the Hunt aren't common, that they only happen once or twice per generation and afterwards the city has a reasonably long time to rebuild and recover, and the Blood Ministration is seen as too important to abandon Yharnam completely despite of despite the potential risks. However, [[spoiler:if you choose to believe that the game actually takes place entirely in some half-real dream realm as many plot elements suggest, then the problem can be completely ignored. The city could exist in a semi-StableTimeLoop, or it could just be a collective nightmare of the inhabitants in the Waking World, among many other possible scenarios.]]
** Actually, the hunt Hunt HAS been going on definitively for quite some time, and the city is actually less disorderly than you think. The Church members you fight and the rabble in the streets of Yharnam are actually, for the most part, sane. Several [=NPCs=] say they can smell you, with [[spoiler: Imposter Iosefka specifically saying that she smells the moon on you. In other words, everyone can sense that you're a servant of the Moon Presence, the one that started the Eternal Night of the Hunt in compliance with Wilhelm's wishes to give the hunters Hunters the strength to kill the other Great Ones.]] That's why everyone says this is all your fault and attacks you on sight: not because they're insane, but because [[spoiler:you are effectively sponsored by the Great One that has kept the Hunt going forever.]] In practice, most of the enemies you fight are at least somewhat organized: the mobs don't turn on one another and are found gathering around the corpse of a burned wolf beast that they presumably worked together to kill- kill -- the church members keep their posts, etc. Sure, some people go insane- hunters insane -- Hunters like [[spoiler:Father Gascoigne lose themselves and eventually start killing even those that have not turned yet.]] But for the most part, the still-human enemies you fight are all saner than you think.



Various sources in the game make reference to Laurence, but who he exactly is seems a bit unclear. The primary source is the skull you learn the password to the Forbidden Woods. The cutscene displays a memory, of Provost Willem and Laurence talking. However only Willem is seen, and later shown to be still alive at Byrgenwerth. This would make it seem like the beastly skull on the Grand Cathedral alter was Laurence's, but if so why did cutscene show Willem from various angles almost at random and finally from above? From this and the other mentioned sources, fans have come to the conclusiosn that Laurence founded the Healing Church with something Brygenwerth found in the labyrinths under Yharnem, specifically against Provost Willem's warning to "fear the old blood". If so, and the skull is his, he became a beast and was killed, by what looks like a devastating blow to his left eye. My problem is NONE of the [=NPCs=] and sources affliated with the Church mention, "oh, btw Our Founder turned into a beast thing and had to be put down."
Another source of contention to Laurence being dead is that Gehrman is still waiting for him and Willem to free him from the hunter's dream. Gehrman has displayed some awareness of what goes on outside the dream and appears to guide you to the next area. Should he have figured out by now that Laurence is dead, especially given the likelyhood of a hunter being the one who did him in and all hunters pass through the Hunter's Dream? it could be understandable he didn't know about Willem give the fact the door to the forbidden woods was shut tight until you receive the password, that and Rom seems to have some MASSIVE effect over the whole area.

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Various sources in the game make reference to Laurence, but who he exactly is seems a bit unclear. The primary source is the skull you learn the password to the Forbidden Woods. The cutscene displays a memory, of Provost Willem and Laurence talking. However only Willem is seen, and later shown to be still alive at Byrgenwerth. This would make it seem like the beastly skull on the Grand Cathedral alter was Laurence's, but if so why did cutscene show Willem from various angles almost at random and finally from above? From this and the other mentioned sources, fans have come to the conclusiosn conclusion that Laurence founded the Healing Church with something Brygenwerth found in the labyrinths under Yharnem, specifically against Provost Willem's warning to "fear the old blood". If so, and the skull is his, he became a beast and was killed, by what looks like a devastating blow to his left eye. My problem is NONE of the [=NPCs=] and sources affliated affiliated with the Church mention, "oh, btw Our Founder turned into a beast thing and had to be put down."
Another source of contention to Laurence being dead is that Gehrman is still waiting for him and Willem to free him from the hunter's dream.Hunter's Dream. Gehrman has displayed some awareness of what goes on outside the dream and appears to guide you to the next area. Should he have figured out by now that Laurence is dead, especially given the likelyhood likelihood of a hunter Hunter being the one who did him in and all hunters Hunters pass through the Hunter's Dream? it could be understandable he didn't know about Willem give the fact the door to the forbidden woods was shut tight until you receive the password, that and Rom seems to have some MASSIVE effect over the whole area.



** Sorry no, that beast skull really ''was'' Laurence's. WordOfGod via a Miyazaki interview confirms that he became a Bloodletting Beast variant while leading an excavation in the Chalice Dungeon's, the reason one talks about it is the same as to why Willem is just left alone on a dock while in a semi-vegetative state: it happened ages ago, shit like that has, is, or will happen to everybody else soon enough, and everyone knows it's not worth being distressed over, and the institution he founded has grown beyond being built entirely around it's first teaching authority. Laurence isn't seen because he's TheVoice, and Gehrman was sleeptalking during a nightmare.

to:

** Sorry no, that beast skull really ''was'' Laurence's. WordOfGod via a Miyazaki interview confirms that he became a Bloodletting Beast variant while leading an excavation in the Chalice Dungeon's, the reason one talks about it is the same as to why Willem is just left alone on a dock while in a semi-vegetative state: it happened ages ago, shit like that has, is, or will happen to everybody else soon enough, and everyone knows it's not worth being distressed over, and the institution he founded has grown beyond being built entirely around it's first teaching authority. Laurence isn't seen because he's TheVoice, and Gehrman was sleeptalking sleep-talking during a nightmare.



* I think we can reasonably say female Hunters of the Hunters' Dream wouldn't have a problem. [[spoiler:The Moon Presence has them there for a reason, and it's not to get impregnated by star-born horrors. It's to ''kill'' star-born horrors.]] This is reinforced by Annalise calling you a "Moon-scented hunter" when you're speaking with her.

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* I think we can reasonably say female Hunters of the Hunters' Dream wouldn't have a problem. [[spoiler:The Moon Presence has them there for a reason, and it's not to get impregnated by star-born horrors. It's to ''kill'' star-born horrors.]] This is reinforced by Annalise calling you a "Moon-scented hunter" Hunter" when you're speaking with her.



It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and hunters of the church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the hunt looses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.
* Where is it "spelled out" that the ''idea'' of a hunt is what caused people to turn into beasts, rather than - say - the abhorrent blood practices and rituals they had been undertaking?
** By the time the hunt started to take place, the beast plague had already gotten a foothold in the city. Stopping the blood rituals and other occult activities would have stopped the spread, but it wouldn't have reversed the conditions of those already afflicted. The beasts ''needed'' to be hunted down, regardless of whether or not the source had been dealt with, yet the game treats this choice as an unwise and futile effort rather than a necessity.

to:

It has been all but explicitly spelled out that the Hunt undertaken by the townsfolk and hunters Hunters of the church only accelerated their transformation into beasts, and made their final transformations far more dangerous and horrific as well. While an interesting and poetic theme, the game fails to provide an alternative for the people to have tried instead. Savage beasts were roaming the streets, slaughtering people at their leisure; would it have been preferable to just ''let'' them rampage? Condemning the effectivity of the hunt Hunt looses a lot of its credibility if the Yharnamites had literally no other choice.
* Where is it "spelled out" that the ''idea'' of a hunt Hunt is what caused people to turn into beasts, rather than - -- say - -- the abhorrent blood practices and rituals they had been undertaking?
** By the time the hunt Hunt started to take place, the beast plague had already gotten a foothold in the city. Stopping the blood rituals and other occult activities would have stopped the spread, but it wouldn't have reversed the conditions of those already afflicted. The beasts ''needed'' to be hunted down, regardless of whether or not the source had been dealt with, yet the game treats this choice as an unwise and futile effort rather than a necessity.



*** First and foremost, the sword hunter's badge clearly states that Ludwig became "the most hideous beast", though your personal experiences with corrupt hunters such as Gascoigne, Henryk, and the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst should have made it clear by then. Monster-turned hunters are such a problem that it necessitates a specialized hunter with the sole responsibility of taking them down. In fact, the only enemy hunter you have a chance of reasoning with (Djura) is coincidentally the one who most wholeheartedly rejected the hunt. As for the common folk who volunteered to aid in the hunt, each and every one is murderously insane without exception, and are already beginning to mutate, although they must have been sane enough to pass muster when the hunt first began earlier that night. The only sane Yharnamites you encounter either took no part in the hunt or were busy perusing their own agenda elsewhere. Really, the whole notion of HeWhoFightsMonsters is a dominant and recurring theme throughout the game. My issue is that the game time and time again hits you over the head with how the hunt is a bad influence, but never provides a feasible alternative for the Yharnamites to have attempted, short of simply laying down and allowing the beasts to eat them.
*** Except all of those things you mentioned were linked to the blood that the Church received from ''dealing with extra-planetary creatures and getting high as tits off its blood''. The "hunt" is not shown as a bad influence. Drenching yourself in alien blood and getting diseased is the bad influence - heck, you even list someone from Cainhurst who are outright spoken of as decadent blood addicts! There's nothing as explicit as you claim linking hunts to insanity and transformation; any recurring elements originate from Yharnam and its blood ministration.
*** The hunt itself is not a bad idea. People need to be protected from the beasts. But it ended up being useless, perhaps worse than useless, due to the Healing Church continuing to use the Blood of the Gods long after they became aware of the danger. A few people using the Blood as a pick me up or an alternative to drugs and sex would be gross but probably easily taken care of. The Church encouraged the use of the Blood for everything and refused to disclose any information about it to try and hold on to their power base. If they had stopped the Scourge of the Beast would not have hit nearly as hard. Further compounding the problem was that the Healing Church whipped the populace into a frenzy to get them to join the hunt and started killing indiscriminately, which exposed many more people to infection, hastened the transformation of those already infected and resulted in the deaths of god knows how many people. There are three notable characters that question the hunt but none of them are really sane. Djura believes those infected to still be sentient and thinks of the hunt as mad slaughter, but he's willing to kill anyone who enters Old Yharnam. The Afflicted Beggar says he never asked to get caught up in all this and thinks the Hunters are worse than the beasts, but he himself is a murderous Darkbeast. Eileen apparently HATES Hunters despite being one herself and says they all must die, but she only says this if she goes mad when the Blood Moon rises. Their statements mustn't be taken at face value.


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*** First and foremost, the sword hunter's Sword Hunter's badge clearly states that Ludwig became "the most hideous beast", though your personal experiences with corrupt hunters Hunters such as Gascoigne, Henryk, and the Bloody Crow of Cainhurst should have made it clear by then. Monster-turned hunters Hunters are such a problem that it necessitates a specialized hunter Hunter with the sole responsibility of taking them down. In fact, the only enemy hunter Hunter you have a chance of reasoning with (Djura) is coincidentally the one who most wholeheartedly rejected the hunt. Hunt. As for the common folk who volunteered to aid in the hunt, Hunt, each and every one is murderously insane without exception, and are already beginning to mutate, although they must have been sane enough to pass muster when the hunt Hunt first began earlier that night. The only sane Yharnamites you encounter either took no part in the hunt Hunt or were busy perusing their own agenda elsewhere. Really, the whole notion of HeWhoFightsMonsters is a dominant and recurring theme throughout the game. My issue is that the game time and time again hits you over the head with how the hunt Hunt is a bad influence, but never provides a feasible alternative for the Yharnamites to have attempted, short of simply laying down and allowing the beasts to eat them.
*** Except all of those things you mentioned were linked to the blood that the Church received from ''dealing with extra-planetary creatures and getting high as tits off its blood''. The "hunt" "Hunt" is not shown as a bad influence. Drenching yourself in alien blood and getting diseased is the bad influence - -- heck, you even list someone from Cainhurst who are outright spoken of as decadent blood addicts! There's nothing as explicit as you claim linking hunts Hunts to insanity and transformation; any recurring elements originate from Yharnam and its blood ministration.
Blood Ministration.
*** The hunt Hunt itself is not a bad idea. People need to be protected from the beasts. But it ended up being useless, perhaps worse than useless, due to the Healing Church continuing to use the Blood of the Gods long after they became aware of the danger. A few people using the Blood as a pick me up or an alternative to drugs and sex would be gross but probably easily taken care of. The Church encouraged the use of the Blood for everything and refused to disclose any information about it to try and hold on to their power base. If they had stopped stopped, the Scourge of the Beast would not have hit nearly as hard. Further compounding the problem was that the Healing Church whipped the populace into a frenzy to get them to join the hunt Hunt and started killing indiscriminately, which exposed many more people to infection, hastened the transformation of those already infected infected, and resulted in the deaths of god knows how many people. There are three notable characters that question the hunt Hunt but none of them are really sane. Djura believes those infected to still be sentient and thinks of the hunt Hunt as mad slaughter, but he's willing to kill anyone who enters Old Yharnam. The Afflicted Beggar says he never asked to get caught up in all this and thinks the Hunters are worse than the beasts, but he himself is a murderous Darkbeast. Eileen apparently HATES Hunters despite being one herself and says they all must die, but she only says this if she goes mad when the Blood Moon rises. Their statements mustn't be taken at face value.




* Yharnam is known as a place of healing, to the point where strangers travel across the world to partake in the blood ministrations. Yet from what we see in the game, the Yharnamites are not just unfriendly to foreigners, but outright hostile, and are even implied to murder innocent travelers and drink their blood. If the locals weren't enough of a deterrent, a rampant plague has been spreading like wildfire throughout the city for generations; such affairs have a tendency to cast serious doubts upon the quality of a city's medicine. With widespread sickness throughout the city famed for curing sickness, not to mention the Yharnamit's propensity for cannibalizing foreigners, how the hell did Yharnam acquire it's "healing" reputation in the first place?
** Yharnum's seclusion and isolation would presumably go some way towards keeping knowledge of the scourge from getting out, as well as the potential that anyone who tries to leave to spread word gets either strung up by a mob or killed by beasts. The Yharnumites being so bigoted against foreigners would also explain why they didn't go to other cities or countries for help with the beasts, they're too proud to stoop to the level of asking unworthy foreigners to come help them sort out their own mess. Also initially the hunts weren't the massive mobs we encounter in game, at first things were done discreetly by Gherman and the Healing Church, presumably with the intention of keeping the beasts a secret to avoid panic. The fact that Ludwig started designing weapons which deviated from Gherman's standards specifically in anticipation of larger and more dangerous beasts suggests that originally the beasts weren't as large and terrible as they became. So for a while they probably kept things under wraps until the Old Yharnum incident, at which point things spiralled out of control and Ludwig started recruiting anyone who'd fight into the hunts, creating the torches and pitchforks mobs.

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* Yharnam is known as a place of healing, to the point where strangers travel across the world to partake in the blood ministrations.Blood Ministrations. Yet from what we see in the game, the Yharnamites are not just unfriendly to foreigners, but outright hostile, and are even implied to murder innocent travelers and drink their blood. If the locals weren't enough of a deterrent, a rampant plague has been spreading like wildfire throughout the city for generations; such affairs have a tendency to cast serious doubts upon the quality of a city's medicine. With widespread sickness throughout the city famed for curing sickness, not to mention the Yharnamit's Yharnamite's propensity for cannibalizing foreigners, how the hell did Yharnam acquire it's "healing" reputation in the first place?
** Yharnum's seclusion and isolation would presumably go some way towards keeping knowledge of the scourge from getting out, as well as the potential that anyone who tries to leave to spread word gets either strung up by a mob or killed by beasts. The Yharnumites Yharnamites being so bigoted against foreigners would also explain why they didn't go to other cities or countries for help with the beasts, they're too proud to stoop to the level of asking unworthy foreigners to come help them sort out their own mess. Also Also, initially the hunts Hunts weren't the massive mobs we encounter in game, at first things were done discreetly by Gherman Gehrman and the Healing Church, presumably with the intention of keeping the beasts a secret to avoid panic. The fact that Ludwig started designing weapons which deviated from Gherman's Gehrman's standards specifically in anticipation of larger and more dangerous beasts suggests that originally the beasts weren't as large and terrible as they became. So So, for a while while, they probably kept things under wraps until the Old Yharnum incident, at which point things spiralled spiraled out of control and Ludwig started recruiting anyone who'd fight into the hunts, Hunts, creating the torches and pitchforks mobs.



** The game itself kind of suggests that [[spoiler: Ludwig]] was never entirely sane to begin with. His dialogue after the fight if you don't wear Church garb and the description of the Guidance rune both imply that [[spoiler: Ludwig]] either hallucinated the 'thread of light' or that the rune (remember, Caryll runes are the transcribed utterings of the Great Ones, it'd make sense that they could give Insight and drive people mad). And the description of the [[spoiler: Holy Moonlight Sword]] mentions it offering 'guidance', a weird thing for a [[spoiler: sword]] to be giving, and [[spoiler: Ludwig himself]] calls it 'my guiding moonlight'. With all that in mind, you could easily interpret [[spoiler: Ludwig]] of not being all there from the beginning, perhaps because of the influence of the [[spoiler: Holy Moonlight Sword]], which is clearly magical. And magic in ''Bloodborne'' tends to be associated with the Great Ones, suggesting [[spoiler: Ludwig's]] been using a Great One-tainted artefact for a long time. Even without that, his only knowledge of you is that you walked in and tried to kill him, and he's in a nightmare where only blood-crazed Hunters are meant to go, he possibly assumes you're as blood-drunk as the others and continues to fight for that reason. Which'd be fitting with one of the game's themes about Hunters being little different from the beasts.

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** The game itself kind of suggests that [[spoiler: Ludwig]] was never entirely sane to begin with. His dialogue after the fight if you don't wear Church garb and the description of the Guidance rune both imply that [[spoiler: Ludwig]] either hallucinated the 'thread of light' or that the rune (remember, Caryll runes are the transcribed utterings of the Great Ones, it'd make sense that they could give Insight and drive people mad). And the description of the [[spoiler: Holy Moonlight Sword]] mentions it offering 'guidance', a weird thing for a [[spoiler: sword]] to be giving, and [[spoiler: Ludwig himself]] calls it 'my guiding moonlight'. With all that in mind, you could easily interpret [[spoiler: Ludwig]] of not being all there from the beginning, perhaps because of the influence of the [[spoiler: Holy Moonlight Sword]], which is clearly magical. And magic in ''Bloodborne'' tends to be associated with the Great Ones, suggesting [[spoiler: Ludwig's]] been using a Great One-tainted artefact artifact for a long time. Even without that, his only knowledge of you is that you walked in and tried to kill him, and he's in a nightmare where only blood-crazed Hunters are meant to go, he possibly assumes you're as blood-drunk as the others and continues to fight for that reason. Which'd be fitting with one of the game's themes about Hunters being little different from the beasts.



* The Plague has already spread throughout every nook and cranny of Yharnam, so exposure is virtually unavoidable. It's apparently able to convert people into beasts within a matter of hours. The hunter him/her self is injected with and drenched in gallons of tainted blood every hour, and some of the items you can use intentional aggravates the growing beasthood within them. It's not just the blood either; The insight system is potent enough to turn learned, strong willed men into jabbering lunatics, meaning that you are compromised both physically ''and'' mentally . Yet in spite of all this, the player character shrugs off all these influences like water off a duck's back. While The Hunter's Dream may protect you from death, it doesn't alter or preserve your fundamental nature, and Gehrnman even accuses you of falling to the blood's influence should you choose to fight him. Heck, there's even an entire nightmare dedicated to holding (and packed to the brim with) blood-mad hunters. Why are you so unique? The character creation allows for any number of backgrounds and strengths, so what's the common denominator that allows you alone to stave off the mutation and madness where all others failed?
** What gave you the impression that you were staving anything off? You're devouring blood to become stronger, can very well end up eating umbilical chords just for a little extra edge and have been wading through literal gallons of blood because "that's what Hunters do". You're not unique, you're just earlier in the process that anyone else - for all we know the Hunter could end up in the Nightmare when they truly die.
** It's worth noticing, that hostile citizens of Yharnam that you encounter often treat you as the "foul beast". It's not really clear who's watching ThroughTheEyesOfMadness here - them, or youself. Or both, for that matter.

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* The Plague has already spread throughout every nook and cranny of Yharnam, so exposure is virtually unavoidable. It's apparently able to convert people into beasts within a matter of hours. The hunter Hunter him/her self is injected with and drenched in gallons of tainted blood every hour, and some of the items you can use intentional aggravates the growing beasthood within them. It's not just the blood either; The insight system is potent enough to turn learned, strong willed men into jabbering lunatics, meaning that you are compromised both physically ''and'' mentally . Yet in spite of all this, the player character shrugs off all these influences like water off a duck's back. While The Hunter's Dream may protect you from death, it doesn't alter or preserve your fundamental nature, and Gehrnman Gehrman even accuses you of falling to the blood's influence should you choose to fight him. Heck, there's even an entire nightmare dedicated to holding (and packed to the brim with) blood-mad hunters.Hunters. Why are you so unique? The character creation allows for any number of backgrounds and strengths, so what's the common denominator that allows you alone to stave off the mutation and madness where all others failed?
** What gave you the impression that you were staving anything off? You're devouring blood to become stronger, can very well end up eating umbilical chords just for a little extra edge and have been wading through literal gallons of blood because "that's what Hunters do". You're not unique, you're just earlier in the process that anyone else - -- for all we know the Hunter could end up in the Nightmare when they truly die.
** It's worth noticing, that hostile citizens of Yharnam that you encounter often treat you as the "foul beast". It's not really clear who's watching ThroughTheEyesOfMadness here - -- them, or youself.yourself. Or both, for that matter.



** The immunity likely comes from the Moon Presence. At the start of the game, the Player is given an injection of 'Yharnam Blood' as part of their contract and directly afterwards, they have a hallucination of a Beast rising out of a pool of blood. At this point, thanks to the injection, the Player has become infected by the Plague. However, in the vision, the Beast is driven off by the Messengers, representing the Moon Presence shielding the Player from the Plague's effects. This is why the Hunter's Dream and the Moon Presence are so vital to fighting the Plague. As far as we know, the Plague has no cure, and thanks to the widespread use of Blood Ministration, everyone is Yharnam is infected, meaning the any normal hunter of Beasts is doomed to either die to the beasts or succumb to the Plague and become a Beast themselves. The Hunters that contract with the Moon Presence are the only ones with actual immunity to the Plague, plus they can't be permanently killed, thus they are only ones with any real hope of fighting it.

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** The immunity likely comes from the Moon Presence. At the start of the game, the Player is given an injection of 'Yharnam Blood' as part of their contract and directly afterwards, they have a hallucination of a Beast rising out of a pool of blood. At this point, thanks to the injection, the Player has become infected by the Plague. However, in the vision, the Beast is driven off by the Messengers, representing the Moon Presence shielding the Player from the Plague's effects. This is why the Hunter's Dream and the Moon Presence are so vital to fighting the Plague. As far as we know, the Plague has no cure, and thanks to the widespread use of Blood Ministration, everyone is in Yharnam is infected, meaning the that any normal hunter of Beasts is doomed to either die to the beasts Beasts or succumb to the Plague and become a Beast themselves. The Hunters that contract with the Moon Presence are the only ones with actual immunity to the Plague, plus they can't be permanently killed, thus they are only ones with any real hope of fighting it.



* Given that Old Yharnham has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that blood ministration was popular in Old Yharnham just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnham fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnham was suffering from the ashen blood disease (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.

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* Given that Old Yharnham Yharnam has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that blood ministration Blood Ministration was popular in Old Yharnham Yharnam just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnham Yharnam fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnham Yarnam was suffering from the ashen blood disease disease, (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.



This is something that has confused me for a while, The entire game takes place inside a dream, an eternal nightmare to trap the residents in an endless hunt for beasts while becoming beasts, such is the curse that the residents of the Fishing Village inflicted on them, so apart from (possibly) the Doctor at the start, is the entire city just devoid of life in reality, or at least everyone kept in an eternal sleep?

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This is something that has confused me for a while, The the entire game takes place inside a dream, an eternal nightmare to trap the residents in an endless hunt for beasts while becoming beasts, such is the curse that the residents of the Fishing Village inflicted on them, so apart from (possibly) the Doctor at the start, is the entire city just devoid of life in reality, or at least everyone kept in an eternal sleep?



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* My personal Theory is that The One Reborn was ''unfinished'', being that it is heavily connected to the school of Mensis, I theorised that it was actually meant to be a host body for the Brain of Mensis, The void where you meet the brain was actually The One Reborn's holding area, and your actions forced the school to release it early, before they could lower the Brain on to it.



* Given that Old Yharnham has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that blood ministration was popular in Old Yharnham just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnham fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnham was suffering from the ashen blood disease (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.

to:

* Given that Old Yharnham has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that blood ministration was popular in Old Yharnham just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnham fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnham was suffering from the ashen blood disease (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.available.

[[WMG: The Dream and Reality of Yharnam]]
This is something that has confused me for a while, The entire game takes place inside a dream, an eternal nightmare to trap the residents in an endless hunt for beasts while becoming beasts, such is the curse that the residents of the Fishing Village inflicted on them, so apart from (possibly) the Doctor at the start, is the entire city just devoid of life in reality, or at least everyone kept in an eternal sleep?


The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the healing church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the healing church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?

to:

The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the healing church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the healing church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?well?

* Given that Old Yharnham has its own churches, some of which make use of ritual blood, it seems likely that blood ministration was popular in Old Yharnham just as it was in the rest of the city. As for why Old Yharnham fell before the rest of the city, remember that Old Yarnham was suffering from the ashen blood disease (a form of blood poisoning that antidotes could only temporarily delay) so would have been desperate for any cure for the plague, and would therefore have flocked to the church once blood ministration became available.


* The Mensis connection is a bit more clear. Yahar'Gul was Micolash and company's HQ after splitting from Byrgenwerth, which they abandoned (along with their bodies) upon learning how to transfer themselves to the Nightmare (assuming they didn't create that part of it altogether; dreams don't have to make external sense, after all).

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* The Mensis connection is a bit more clear. Yahar'Gul was Micolash and company's HQ after splitting from Byrgenwerth, which they abandoned (along with their bodies) upon learning how to transfer themselves to the Nightmare (assuming they didn't create that part of it altogether; dreams don't have to make external sense, after all).all).

[[WMG: Where did the beast curse stem from?]]

The beast curse seems to be related to the use of blood provided by the healing church, but is this really the case? Old Yharnam is crawling with beasts, and it went down hill before the use of the healing church blood was widespread. Is it possible that [[spoiler: the moon presence]] is responsible for the beast curse as well?


* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the beastly scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.

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* Was the city utterly depopulated by the end of the game? Was the effects of the Blood Moon on the populace temporary? Did you disrupt the healing church's activities to the point where they are incapable of further exploiting the old blood? Was the beastly scourge contained, or are monsters spilling out into the surrounding countryside? Although I approve of FromSoftware's Creator/FromSoftware's method of storytelling, with a JigsawPuzzlePlot of this magnitude it's way too easy for crucial details to slip past your notice, which makes the absence of a proper epilogue all the more frustrating.

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