This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
MCE: Is there a trope to describe the mind hurting stupidity displayed by the government when the try to kill off Torchwood, the only organisation that can help them? (New series)
Semi-Known Troper: Consensus in the fandom seems to be that season two has achieved Growing the Beard. Though I best check before putting something opinion based.
- Kinitawowi: They're still messing Tosh around a bit too much, I suspect, but there's certainly some visible stubble.
- Renita: Yeah, I agree, Toshiko's characterization is suffering. She was my favourite character in season 1, not so much in season 2. I think I'm in the minority in prefering the first season, actually. There are individual episodes in the second series that I like as much, such as "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" and the Martha episodes (though more for the Owen plotline than Martha, ironically, considering that Owen is one of my least favourite characters), but overall, I'm not so fond of the current series.
- Jester I think it's more a case of how it is no longer 'Doctor Who without the Doctor', but has found its own niche - as a fun, campy, slightly self-parodying sci-fi romp full of unashamedly gratuitous violence and sex. Also, it can do absurdly emo actor showcases (Dead Man Walking).
- Renita: Yeah, I agree, Toshiko's characterization is suffering. She was my favourite character in season 1, not so much in season 2. I think I'm in the minority in prefering the first season, actually. There are individual episodes in the second series that I like as much, such as "Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang" and the Martha episodes (though more for the Owen plotline than Martha, ironically, considering that Owen is one of my least favourite characters), but overall, I'm not so fond of the current series.
Spider: Ianto is The Big Guy and Gentle Giant? Really? For one thing, he's hardly a big guy — he's shorter and slimmer than Jack (and has that whole [cute] fussy thing going with his suits, which seems antithetical to The Big Guy's stock demeanor). For another, the only criterion he fits for The Big Guy is that he's withdrawn, and so's Toshiko for that matter. I'd say he's more of a non-evil Battle Butler. Also, is it really Ho Yay once it's moved beyond homoeroticism and into you know, onscreen (albeit discreet) sex? (Not that I'm complaining, oh no.)
Twin Bird: Yes, but Jack is larger-than-life in every way, and Ianto isn't that much shorter or slimmer - compared to the other men on the show (Owen, Eugene, Rhys if he lost a few pounds) and in general, he's pretty big. And if you look at his scenes, he's almost always standing above the other characters, which gives him a greater presence.
[Unregistered edit]- Gentle Giant usually requires amazing physical prowess- it's someone who could break every bone in your body but won't because they're gentle. That's not Ianto.
I think the Ho Yay designation comes from the "Doctor Who fanfic" theory. Even then, though, the only characters who aren't original are Jack, "Dr. Sato," and Martha, and no two of them have been paired. (Unless you count that one kiss between Martha and Jack, but that was more "Het Yay.") I do get a sense of a Les Yay triangle ("round robin," as it were) between Gwen, Tosh, and Suzy, though.
I think a lot of confusion over his character comes from the writers themselves. If the rumors are true, Ianto was meant to be killed off early in the first season, most probably either during the obvious "Cyberwoman" or his last chance for significant screen time "Contrycide". Apparently, actor Gareth David-Lloyd so charmed producers and writers that they essentially rewrote the episodes to keep him. it is possible that his character is being developed heavily as an after thought. His role towards the end of season one as well as the now cannon relationship between Ianto and Jack seems to indicate he might actually be a Lancer in training. While in season two he has the red flag of all Smart Guy lines: "Nobody knows more than I do!" and his new tendency towards snarky commentary are qualities of both character types. It's all very tricky as the show itself seems to try avoiding clear labels and categories, yet Gwen (our protagonist and the person we're supposed to sympathize with most) is clearly The Chick.
- : Ianto's chances of filling the role of Lancer or Smart Guy have also increased dramatically since both Tosh and Owen didn't survive "Exit Wounds". RIP Tosh and Owen. You will be missed.
- He sure looks like a Lancer in this picture
. Of course, in most of the other group pictures, he just looks like a freakin' clingy boyfriend... I guess, given his personality, that was bound to happen eventually.
- He sure looks like a Lancer in this picture
Does Jack/Ianto fall under Yaoi Guys or Boys' Love? I'm a little unclear on the parameters.
- Yaoi Guys, I believe?
Ianto practically defines the Woobie.
Daibhid C: While I would hesitate to say any of the first series was actually good (although it had it's moments, towards the end), the description which takes up most of the page only really describes the first few episodes which, yes, were like a ghastly parody of what an "adult Doctor Who" might be like.
Also, the "roughly every five minutes" line strikes me as a bit off; they don't stand around declaring their bisexuality (in fact RTD refused to call them bisexual in pre-publicity, instead saying something about not having labels) and if it just means their actions remind us they're bisexual then by the same token, Jim Kirk reminds us he's hetero about every fifteen seconds. Double Standard?
ratheranomic: Good point - it was bugging me too. I just went ahead nd removed it since it wasn't necessary anyway.
a note to fellow australian tropers, please remember that even though we have just finished watching the first episode of "children", it has yet to be broadcast in the UK, so either use lots of spoiler tag, or wait till it is broadcast in the UK. (btw, twas a VERY great episode, you will enjoy it, though you will be swearing at the cliffhanger, even if it is only a 24 hour wait)
triassicranger: Isn't the ending of season 3 a Bittersweet Ending rather than a Downer Ending? Yes I know Jack lost his boyfriend and grandson and his daughter hates him but the Big Bad got driven off, Gwen and Rhys are expecting a baby and none of the kids that got rounded up got nicked. Surely in order for it to be a Downer Ending the Big Bad would have to win.
Danel: Yeah, I agree. Also, I wouldn't call the Drugs Are Bad bit narmy - if anything, it was played for black comedy with the PM being more concerned about trading drugs to aliens than about the fact that the 'drugs' were kids. What was the Narm?
Redwulf25_ci: Bury Your Gays removed for the same reasons discussed by Kurosau here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.BuryYourGaysDiscussion
Danel: Cerebus Syndrome: Time was, there'd be sports car-stealing blowfish and space whales and Weevil fight clubs. And then comes the season 2 finale and COE brings the show to epically new levels of darkness and grittiness.
No. No. What? NO. Where the hell did this idea come from that Torchwood used to be some kind of wacky light-hearted thing that only lately turned dark? The first episode ended with the second-in-command being revealed to be a serial killer, then blow her own brains out. The series may have had wacky moments throughout... but it had Grimdark bits as well. Seriously, where is this coming from?
stardust_rain: maybe not a "wacky-lighthearted thing", but the previous two seasons was never even close to this amount of angst before. There were dark bits, yes, but there was also a lot humour and general cheesy campiness inbetween. Even when things did get serious, the angst was just sort of...lazily written and sometimes shoddily handled, in a sense, making more Narmy. There was always a hopeful feel to it and seemed to be closer to the "idealism" end of the sliding scale. Sure, it was never as happy as Doctor Who, but it was entertaining; it was bisexual alien hunters with guns and sex, sex, sex. In COE the humour is completely gone except for a couple of instances of black comedy, and gives us just about the the bleakest look at humanity in the Whoniverse ever. It's become the complete anti-thesis of the "wonder of the universe", approach the DW-verse has always had.
Kurosau: Bury Your Gays removed again, for the same reasons I discussed here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.BuryYourGaysDiscussion
stardust_rain: is there a male version of the Women In Refrigerators trope? Word of God has now stated that Ianto's death was purely written so that Jack could be put in the emotional state to kill his grandson. The death doesn't quite qualify as Cartwright Curse or Stuffed in the Fridge (as it lacks violence) and tends to fall into the fate most of female love interests, and I was unsure whether Always Female tropes can have rare male counterparts.
- I've heard that described as "fridging the queer" - basically an evolution of the Wi F trope but for a homosexual character.
Antheia: Why is there a link to Unfortunate Implications in the trope list?
Debussy I'm told Prime Minster Brian Green has a Meaningful Name, but it's clearly something I don't get. Can anyone explain?
Nightsky Might be a reference to current PM Gordon Brown.
Why is there a quote from Buffy The Vampire Slayer under the picture?
Nightsky Why shouldn't there be a quote from Buffy The Vampire Slayer under the picture? It's funny, it's all culture-fied, and it's even truer for the Torchwood team than it was for the Scoobs.
