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-Sesshomaru and Kagura problems here:

PLEASE SCROLL DOWN if you haven't notice I've replied to your last posts:)

  • Sesshomaru/Rin fans of Inuyasha tend to have on not only Shipping Goggles but Anti Goggles on top of them. They continuously ignore obvious signs that Sesshomaru and Kagura are love interests (such as him breaking Tokijin knowing that without it, he'd probably die just because Moryoumaru insulted Kagura, Tenseiga itself giving confirmation that in all the years he's had that sword, no one had ever moved him the way Kagura did and only now was Sesshomaru ready to use it as a fighting sword, Sesshomaru making it his own personal mission to avenge Kagura, and Rin specifically saying "IN love" and making clear this is a romantic thing, not platonic, and supporting it at the same time-giving undeniable evidence that she is not Sesshomaru's love interest, but Kagura) and insist it's one-sided despite all evidence that Sesshomaru shows much more devotion to Kagura than he does for any of his casual allies (like Kagome and Inuyasha).
    • They also like to argue that they can't be possibly canon because she's dead-regardless of the fact that many of Takahashi's canon pairings involve one party dying (Inuyasha/Kikyo, Sesshomaru's mother/Inu no Taisho, Izayoi/Inu no Taisho), and some of them have had canon love interests who were dead the entire series and only showed up through flashbacks and/or mentions(Soun Tendo/Mrs.Tendo, Soichiro/Kyoko).
      • This tropher doesn't consider Sesshomaru and Kagura a couple. And no, this tropher isn't into Sess Kag nor Sess Rin stuff. Also, as far as this tropher can see, many people don't use that stupid "she's dead" argument and they aren't even against the couple, they just don't think it's love (most of them say "he respects and pities her").This tropher's reason is seen here
      • YOU may not, but plenty of others do. Go here, also linked from the other page: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4771320/5/Truth Like I said, if you're gonna say he didn't love her, then how can you say that Kagura "loved" Sesshomaru? How can you not say that she just had "compassion" for him as well? No matter what it was some kind of relationship has to be present for there to be THAT kind of devotion/compassion whatever on his part, so what are you gonna call it?
      • Continue to read here. Indeed, a special connection is formed between them after all. BUT, the point is, I don't consider that connection romantic in nature. It would be the same whether the other person (Kagura) is a young beautiful woman or an ugly old man, or just a kid. Basically we have this proud young man, who's full of ideals and principles, realizes there's a person who shares one of his most important ideals, and yet she(/he)'s much much less lucky than himself. She suffers all her life undeservedly under the hand of a lowly treacherous bastard, and yet she never ceases to fight, for something both the young man and she value above their own lives. She's so surprising and admirable to him, especially because he never expects that kind of behavior from someone of her humble "class" (Kagura's just a spawn, a former bodypart of that lowly Naraku) . And finally she gains it, but tragically, at the cost of a painful death! He tries to save her from such an undeserved ending, but he can't. He feels respect, sadness and anger at the same time. And now, after her death, she's INSULTED for that brave choice and admirable death, by another lowly bastard. This very young aristocrat (mental equivalent of a 19 yrs old) never likes hearing lowlifes utter lowlifes' crap like that, and feels that he himself is insulted. So he's furious and doesn't care about his safety anymore, all he wants now is shut that dirty mouth forever and forever. And he decides to prove to all the lowlifes that her death is not in vain, that such a choice means something, worths something, and he would prove it by action. Is that understandable?

This is what you said:

  • Like I said, the kind of compassion he has for her is too strong to be that of just allies. His relationship with her is much, much different than his relationship with his allies. She is someone special to him, someone different. The kind of compassion he has for her occurs between families, lifelong friends, and lovers. We can rule out friends and families because that kind of relationship takes a long time to form, like he and Rin. A crush, however, does not take so long to develop, and very well can stir intense feelings inside someone.

  • Once again, it was way too big of a deal to be just plain symphathy. If that was someone like Kagome who'd normally do that for anyone, it'd be passable as "just symphathy". However, this is Sesshomaru, someone who normally wouldn't give a damn-in order for him to do something like that, the person has to mean a lot to him. Rumiko Takahashi made a huge deal out of it. Once again, Tenseiga changed just then, meaning that was the first time his heart had been moved like that in all the years he's had the sword. That's not just passing symphathy-there's something huge going on there, some very strong feelings and devotions. And it goes way past what he's shown for any of his casual allies like Jaken, Inuyasha, Kagome, etc, who he has the platonic feelings for that you claim is what he has with Kagura. And that's not the way he reacted to say, Kikyo's death in the hands of Naraku. Kagura is something special, even though he hadn't known her for very long at all-so what could it be? It bears no similarity whatsoever to how he acts towards the people he has plain symphathy for.

This is what I say:

  • If someone who normally never does something special for anyone, does something special for some one (in this case, Kagura), there are two kinds of common reasons:
  • 1.That person is someone who is SPECIAL to him - this is what you think the case .
  • 2.That person is not someone who is special for him, but he has a SPECIAL REASON - and I think this is the case.
  • The basic principle of compassion is: find the similarity between you (or someone you deeply love) and another person and then act on his/her behalf for the sake of that similarity. What kind of similarity he can find between himself and Kikyo/Inuyasha/Jaken....? And if there was, was it something that was like a principle, an ideal he cherished DEEPLY?

And this is what I say:

  • If he can't see similarities between himself and and of those people, then exactly what is the "similarity" between him and Kagura? Seeking freedom? Kikyo, too, was seeking freedom as well-not in a physical sense like Kagura, but more in a mental/spiritual sense (wanting to leave her life and burdens behind and become, in her words, "an ordinary woman"), which is undoubtedly something he should've related to even more. And what about Kanna, or Byakuya, or Hakudoshi, or Naraku's numerous other incarnations/slaves that he didn't show an ounce of compassion for?

You said (edited it down since it was really long):

  • If you think that my posts are long, keep that judgement for yourself. We will only be able to discuss in a fair manner that way.
    • Please don't try to tell me what I can or can't say. I haven't been able to discuss this in a "fair manner" with you because you keep spamming the page-is it really necessary to go on for that long when a brief discussion will do?

I can edit too. I haven't ediedt what you said yet - not that I don't feel that some parts are unnecessay,

  • If you did, I would not have a problem with it as long as it meant the same thing. In TV Tropes, we edit each others' entries all the time.

just I respect you. Hope you do the same to me. Thank you:)

  • I doubt that. It's disrespectful of you to make assumptions about me like you did below, waste my time by forcing me to read through pages and pages just to be able to have a discussion with you, and for you to check out the page so that I couldn't edit until a certain time.

It would be an easy job for me to edit things back to the same state, without 'page history' because I always save the page when I write something long. I won't do it this time.

  • So you're gonna continue to waste my time, waste discussion space and force me to read through all this when you could've just avoided that by writing briefer entries? Very respectful.

Kagome gives compassion easier than Sesshomaru-it doesn't mean the level of compassion he is capable of is lesser, nor that he needs personal attachments to feel compassion. It just means he's more 'choosy' - the mere fact that someone is suffering can't move him, what he/she is suffering for is the matter.

  • When in the manga, where, does it say that that is what moves Sesshomaru to give compassion? There are plenty of characters who are in similar situations/suffer for similar reasons and yet, does he react to all of them the same way because their reasons were for suffering were the same? No, he does not. Does he treat every orphan the way he treated Rin? Nope, he didn't take in his brother after he was orphaned and initially refused to help the otter child (who was also an orphan). All of Naraku's incarnations were suffering for the same reason Kagura was, and yet, did he treat any of them the same way he treated her? Nope.
  • First. If we are going to talk about things "official", when in the manga, does it say that what Sesshomaru has for Kagura is romantic? We are using facts and reason to prove what we see, right?
    • Exactly. And as I've stated below, there are "facts and reasons" that show this is a romantic thing, whereas there are no "facts and reasons" that show that Sesshomaru gives out compassion based on the person's circumstances regardless of who the person actually is.

And I said that thing above because you were the one who compared Kagome with Sesshomaru. It's a common law, that reasons for giving compassion depends on the person. A person is moved by this situation and isn't move by that situation, a person is moved more than another in the same situation... You talked as if because Sesshomaru gave his compassion to the smaller number of people than Kagome, he needed personal attachments to do so.

  • Which he does. Obviously, if someone always shows more favor to one person than he does another/treats them better than he does others, he has some sort of attachment to that person.

Second. Have I ever said that Sesshomaru only has compassion for Rin?

  • When did I imply that you said Sesshomaru only has compassion for Rin and no one else?

I think he loves her. When it comes to people who you love, you are able to do what you won't even do for yourself.

  • Exactly. And yet you claim he does not love Kagura and has compassion but no love for her, even though he's done things for her he wouldn't normally do for himself.

Third. Has any of Naraku's other reincarnations fought for freedom as fiercely as Kagura? If you don't do your best to help yourself first, you don't deserved to be helped by another at all. They are controlled, but they don't show Sesshomaru that they have the same love for freedom and the same fighting spirit as him. And usually only when one fights fiercely to get rid of something, we can see that they are truly suffering from it. Kagura and Kanna may be in the same circumstance, yet what they do are very different (at least that's Sesshomaru sees). And do you think Hakudoshi's situation is tragic? He dies trying to gain power, to become the new big bad. He already has his freedom (his heart is not in Naraku's hands). I don't see anyone (who doesn't particularly like any of these characterd) is moved by Hakudoshi, Kanna, and Byakuya as much as Kagura. Their situation is just not as tragic as hers.

  • Except they AREN'T his only incarnations. Don't you remember Muso? Muso was physically struggling to get away, and was absorbed back into Naraku against his will. And his incarnations aren't the only ones who worked for Naraku. On top of that, where is it ever implied in any way shape or form that that is what Sesshomaru cares about when he shows compassion? It's not as tragic? Oh, so what Sesshomaru really cares about is how tragic the circumstance is, right? Is that why he didn't care about any of the other tragic circumstances people had to go through?

Also Kikyo? It's as you say, she wants spiritual freedom. That's freedom of the soul. It's meaningful whether you're dead or you're alive. Physical freedom is different. Kagura is put into this situation: when she lives, she lives in slavery, when she has physical freedom, she is dead.

  • Spiritual freedom, by all means, even more meaningful than physical freedom. Where is it implied that he cares more about physical freedom than spiritual freedom? What is your reasoning behind that?

Not to mention Sesshomaru sees Kagura try to get out of her situation with his own eyes. How many times does he meet Kikyo and hear her talk so he can relate to her and her problems?

  • Sesshomaru has met Kikyo a few times (she's saved Rin during the Mt. Hakurei) and was THERE when Naraku killed her, and was listening in. He knows about her history and her struggle. He still let her die. If he shows compassion based on the person's circumstances and not his own attachment to the person themselves, there's no way he could've just let Naraku kill Kikyo after what he saw and heard-and yet, he did.

Besides, as far as I see, for a long time Sesshomaru doesn't realize that the problem with him is the obsession, once he sees it, he deals with it quickly. He doesn't realize that before he meets Shishinki - no way one can feel compassion if he doesn't realize that he himself has THAT problem. Sesshomaru, as I read it, for the most part focuses on how to protect himself from physical control.

  • Wait, what? Sesshomaru had to protect himself from physical control? Who physically controlled Sesshomaru? How? And yes, Sesshomaru DOES hate spiritual/mental control-Naraku notes it himself that he hates doing things anyone else's way. He's always reluctant to fall into Naraku's traps, such as when Rin got kidnapped and instead of immediately going after her, he went to confront Naraku because he didn't want Naraku's plan to work out. He was avoiding being controlled MENTALLY, not physically.

In hell, he used Tenseiga to save strangers when he normally wouldn't because he saw similarities between them and Rin. And obviously what he felt in Hell for those dead people, event just MOMENTALLY, was something BIG, too, because it was enough to make Tenseiga perform its ultimate technique: saving one hundred people in one swing, taking it to another level. It wasn't his concern for Rin-based on what his mother said , Tenseiga requires the master to value life itself. Yes, it was big, it was huge, and it was compassion towards STRANGERS and not love. I dont see the case of his feelings towards Kagura as different.

  • But there's a huge difference between showing compassion for someone ONCE and REPEATEDLY doing it for a certain person-when you keep on showing compassion for someone again and again like he did for Kagura, that forms a RELATIONSHIP. Meaning it's NOT the same. The incident with the sword was NOT the only time he's shown compassion for her. He's also lied for her. When she gave him Fuyoheki shards, Goryoumaru asked him how he found him. Jaken was about to tell the truth and tell him about Kagura, but Sesshomaru told him to shut up and and lied to protect her. Not to mention the river incident, where he could've just left her or just pulled out Rin and Jaken, but saved her anyway (after much trying to get himself not to, just like when he first came across Rin he was initially gonna walk away), and STAYED THERE with her until he knew she was okay, risked his life knowingly by breaking his only offensive sword just because someone said a few bad words, threw away a chance to kill Naraku just to get to her side, made sure to let her know he came for her when usually he'd just go "I was passing by", grabbed Tenseiga to try to save her WITHOUT it having to pulse and tell him to do so-which is something he didn't even do with Rin until AFTER this incident, and even before all then he let her get away with EVERYTHING-including kidnapping Rin, as he was the one who jumped on the rock to ask her what she knew even though Jaken was standing there yelling that she kidnapped Rin and Rin was hiding in fear of her...with Kagura, it's a REPEATED thing. Not just a once or twice thing. Meaning they have a RELATIONSHIP of sorts.
  • First. The situation in Hell has already been dealed with. Rin is saved. Those people are saved. The similarity he sees in Hell is a temporary reality: Rin is dead, those other people are dead. Kagura's problems haven't been dealt with.
    • Actually, at the time Tenseiga called Totosai and at the time he broke Tokijin, KAGURA WAS DEAD AS WELL. Meaning, her situation had "already been dealt with" just like Rin because "she was dead".

The similarity he sees between him and her is an ideal.

  • And when does he note any similarity between her and himself? Sure, readers may see it, but what makes you think the character does?

And ideals, unlike that temporary reality, are always there, in your heart. It's natural that ideal-related problems live long. I don't think it need personal attachments to be so. Imho, if he's ever to become the one who devotes to saving strangers, he needs to make "every life deserves to be valued" a permanent ideal, and first of all, he needs to cherish his own life as much as he cherishes things like freedom and 'pride'. I just tried to prove that he could feel HUGE things for people he even didn't know, momentarily or not - if you agree, then I'm very happy.

  • Yes, but it's EVEN BIGGER when you do it repeatedly. It becomes, however deep or not-so-deep, a relationship.

Second. In short, I don't agree with your arguments that if someone shows compassion to someone else repeatedly means they must have some relationship. It's obvious that I have more chances to give compassion to someone I meet more than once, more than twice, more than thrice, than strangers who I meet once or never meet at all,

  • What? A stranger is someone you've NEVER met before. If this is the third time you're doing something for them, they're obviously NOT strangers anymore.

I also have more chances if I see that particular person is constantly in trouble.

  • CONSTANTLY. Meaning, this ISN'T the first or second time. Meaning, THEY'RE NOT STRANGERS TO YOU ANYMORE.

It will be more natural if that one tries to be my ally, and through some incidents, I see that this one doesn't try to trap me. I do think he's intelligent enough to realize that she has special feelings for him, especially because Rin has said it outloud. Even if I don't particularly like to be helped or loved, is it natural if I decide to treat that one well? I help people I have compassion for when I am given the chance - it's just that.

  • But if you do it REPEATEDLY, and go to the lengths that he did, then you begin forming a relationship. They're not strangers. You have some sort of bond now, whether it's allies or whatever.

I have something to say about some of the incidents you mentioned. When he saves Rin the first time, has he seen any similarity between him and her

  • And when does he note seeing similarities between himself and Kagura? Or anyone?

(does he have any reason to feel compassion? Because she helps him? Is he the one who desires being helped when he's injured, or helps others when they are injured?). And I think love is only formed afterwards.

  • That example was put in there to show that just because he tries to walk away at first doesn't mean he doesn't care.

And after that does he have any chance to use Tenseiga on her till the Hell arc?

  • There were others he could've drawn it for, such as the otter child. And yet, Tenseiga still had to PULSE.

Is he someone who will desperately try to kill anyone who touchs Rin like Sessh/Rin fans love to say?

  • DESPERATELY, no. But normally, he won't let them get away with it-not even little Kohaku got away without being choked.

When she's saved from Jakotsu and Suikotsu, it seems he deems the situation OK, he lets Jakotsu run away and stands there listening to Suikotsu telling his life story.

  • He still went and fought them. He didn't completely let them get away with it like he did with Kagura.

Not to mention she does so because of Naraku's orders. It 's natural that one hates to be controlled will focus his hatred on the manipulator.

  • Did he know that? Jaken clearly told him that Kagura took her. Not to mention that Kohaku did the same thing, and he still attacked him.

When Naraku and Byakuya makes Sango attack Rin, he throw Hiraikotsu at Byakuya, not Sango because only Byakuya has to dodge, hope the anime makes it clear.

  • But that was well into the finale of the series, after he'd already changed a lot due to Rin and Kagura's influences. This was well in the beginning of the series when he was still pretty much a villain and had only recently started to change. And yet, he still...?

Besides, do we see Tenseiga pulses when he revives Jaken? He doesn't even make any excuse then.

  • But that was clearly a joke (RT herself jokes about how seriously Jaken took it in the profiles book), not a serious scene filled with emotions like with Kagura's death.

Kagura is not the exception here. I know, normally, he says "I was just passing by", but in this case, he must know that the fact he comes there for her is particularly meaningful for this woman, who has special feelings for him and is going to die - that's an important thing to look at the circumstances. "I was passing by" wouldn't harm elsewhere, it would harm there.

  • Exactly. Meaning he actually gave a damn. A lot. If that was anyone else, he wouldn't have cared whether it "hurt" or not. He usually carries out his business whether the people around him die or not, much less care about their feelings.

Lying for you allies before enemies is a wise act, especially when they may benefit you further. Not that I say he doesn't show the slightest kindness there, some things you mentioned are kinder than how you expect Sesshomaru would treat a total stranger who he doesn't know a thing about (but not kinder than how I expect, given the chance, he would treat, say, Sango),

  • Except how the hell did thaat benefit him in anyway, besides keeping Kagura safe? And during this time, he still hadn't undergone the progression that he did in the series-this was around the time he'd carry out battle, not caring that the people around him died. Sango? Don't you remember the time in the underworld when he was warned not to fight because Naraku's miasma would kill everyone around him (INCLUDING SANGO) and he DID NOT CARE and continued to fight regardless? Yeah, not how he'd treat Sango, especially during the time it took place.

and that last meeting has that special air in itself, and I love it - but this is how I read it: he knows a person he secretly admires for is going to die, he knows that the woman loves him and will be happy to see him for one last time, he goes there to pay respect to her and save her if he can. Is killing Naraku really important in that situation? And he is Sesshomaru, I can't imagine he think that he can't kill Narku afterwards.

  • Except that's what he'd been working his ass off for all along-the entire series. Are you saying killing Naraku isn't important to him? Trust me, it is. He wouldn't just throw aside a chance to kill Naraku unlesss it was something that was IMPORTANT to him.

But, in short, the only thing I really see as exceptional is his reaction to Moryomaru's words. It seems only at that point, his compassion/emotions for her becomes something really remarkable, with full awakening - or at least Tenseiga's reaction (and non-reaction in other cases) seems to say that. This is the only case I see as really notable.

  • And that is your opinion, but even you can't deny that he acts like this person is pretty important to him.

And now, talk about more than once or twice... When he decides he won't attack Inuyasha anymore (but Inuyasha is losing blood and is becoming unsconcious)in the second battle against his brother, he lets Kagome gets away with purifying the Tessaiga (and attacking him). Then he randomly pops out to save Kagome on Mt.Hakurei. Then he saves her from minor demons in Naraku's body. Then when he's fighting Inuyasha, he sees that Kagome is falling, apparently he is upset(but Inuyasha reacts faster than him). He is given the chance, he saves her, just that.

  • Exactly. They ARE forming a relationship-they're slowly becoming allies.

Nothing special between them. No special amount of compassion, let alone love.

  • Wait, what? So you're saying that he saved them for no reason, and didn't have any compassion for them? As much as he tried to deny it, it shows that he and his brother are overcoming their differences and forming a bond, and he is also (albeit grudgingly) coming to see Kagome as his future sister-in-law. He DEFINITELY had compassion for them, and is STARTING to have some sort of love for them.

I believe if he gets as much chance to deal with her being in trouble as with Kagura being in trouble, he will save her just as many times, however reluctantly. Just the case with Moryomaru above is really something. Yet I do not consider what happens in Hell afterwards less special than that, even if it is more short-lived.

  • Are you serious? If that was the case, why didn't Tenseiga react that way to any of those times he'd saved Inuyasha and Kagome? Because it wasn't enough. His reaction to Kagura was somehow DIFFERENT.

If sympathy/feeling doesn't come from awakening, from understanding, then however strong it is, it's not compassion. He may have had strong feelings before, but because Tenseiga only wanted compassion and those feelings were not compassion, nothing ever happened. Loving a woman romantically is not compassion.

  • Actually, in order to love someone in ANY way at all, you do have to have compassion for them.
    • I don't think so, see below.

Understanding what she has to suffer (and realizing that you yourself really really don't want to suffer those things), treating her and making other people treat her the way you would expect to be treated if you were her, is. That's real compassion.

  • Which is present in all forms of love, including romantic.
    • We need an example here: me. If I know that the one who I love is suffer, then naturally I want to relieve him/her from suffering, whether I understand or not. It's just the instinct. I normally don't care about people who suffer cancer. Yet when my father suffered cancer, I did care - that's love (and because of that I become more sympathetic towards others who suffer cancer as well).
      • Meaning, because you loved him, you were able to have COMPASSION for him when you normally wouldn't. Compassion is INCLUDED in love. Like what Sesshomaru has for Kagura, for Rin.

But I have suffered depression, so whenever I see one who is suffering depression and has the will to fight against it and conquer it, I have special sympathy. And I think this should be repeated, people treat who they feel compassion for the way they think they deserve to be treated, but when it comes to the ones who they love, they go beyond that. I will murder to save my mother if it needs to do so, I won't murder to save my own life.

  • Meaning you have COMPASSION for them even if you don't love them because you can relate. Compassion without love, which can happen for a number of reasons. Like what Sesshomaru has for Kagome or Sango. Or later, Kaede.

That isn't the simple devotion you find in love.

  • There is nothing "simple" about the devotion you have for someone when you love them, whether as a friend, family member, or lover.
  • When I say "simple", I mean "selfless". You don't have to think about yourself when you come to save the ones you love.
    • Because your COMPASSION for them comes naturally when you love them.

You absolutely have to have yourself and what you yourself value in mind when it comes to compassion.

  • Not always. Like I said, love includes compassion, and when you love someone, you don't have to think about yourself.

It's a kind of positive selfishness. Acting on compassion, or more precisely, 慈悲, is helping/protecting others for the sake of YOURSELF. And is it a surprise that someone is able to act fervently when he feels it's his own matter, love or no love?

  • Except, once again, she wasn't the only person who was going through this. If he reacted like that because "he felt it was his own matter" because of the "reason for her suffering", he would've reacted the exact same way for EVERYONE who was going through it-namely, all of Naraku's incarnations, slaves, EVERYONE who died because of him. And yet, did he? Nope.
  • I repeat, it's not really accurate to compare those people with Kagura. NOT every similarity has the same value to one particular person (in this case, Sesshomaru). I only mention the "love for freedom" matter here, and for that matter, see above.
    • And I repeat, no, not ALL of them were similar to her, but SOME of them were, and he still didn't react accordingly. My answer is above as well.

Besides (just not to make anyone misunderstand), I've never mentioned that he feels compassion for Kagura because she fights against Naraku. So you think fighting against Naraku is an ideal he cherishes all along or something?He focuses on Naraku for some time, yet since he receives Meido Zangetsuha, it seems he spends much time focuses on the sword business (to the point, he leaves his group in a dangerous forest, and in the Meido he gives Inuyasha MZ right away despite Inuyasha is injured, poisoned and doesn't have experience. If he has killing Naraku in his mind, why not open a Meido to get out first and give MZ to Inuyasha later?), and then when Magatsuhi appears, he shifts his focus to that one.

  • Did I say that was the only thing? No, that's just one of the ways in which she had suffered-her lack of freedom was directly Naraku's fault, and she had to fight against him.

Also look at the first Magatsuhi battleand what he did for Kohaku. In this situation (like in the battles against Moryomaru and Shishinki before), again we see that he really has a thing against dirty-mouthed low-lifes and will attack them even when it's mortally dangerous to do so - it was true that he felt for Kagura, but also it was that he couldn't bear that dirty Moryomaru anymore.

  • There's a huge difference between just attacking them and acting completely out of character-so out of character that everyone around you is noting your loss of composure-and then going as far as to IGNORE warnings/your nose and purposely break your only weapon and barely make it out alive. His emotional reaction to Moryoumaru insulting Kagura was intense, much more intense than his reaction to Kohaku being attacked.
  • I see the similarities like this: he is attacking them knowing he is at risk doing so and having no benefit in defeating them.
    • He wasn't "at risk"-at least, not HALF as much as he was after Tokijin broke-when he stood up for Kohaku. That was a battle like any other. With Moryoumaru, he barely got out alive.

He reacts to Rin's situation in Hell much more strongly than he ever reacts to that same person in other cases. Does that emotion part tell that he loves her more there in Hell? Kohaku is alive, the hope is till there, he hasn't used his full demon form -his last weapon - against Magatsuhi yet. Kagura is dead and can't be helped anymore. So is it unfamiliar to you that someone can react to a dead person being insulted more emotionally than a living person being attacked (by someone he still hopes he's able to deal with)?

  • Then that makes even LESS sense because the life of a living person being threatened is a much more urgent, important matter than the memory of a dead person.

I'm quite sure that the Inu-gang notice he loses his usual calmness in the Shishinki battle.

  • Yes, because like with Kagura, it was something that MEANT A LOT TO HIM.

Inuyasha himself tries to warn him as well, saying the situation is dangerous, something like "If you gets hit you are a goner". Shishinki himself says he attacks him without plans, like an amateur - does that sound like Sesshomaru?

  • No. Once again, his emotional reaction shows that both situations WERE A BIG DEAL TO HIM. When did I imply that the situation with Shishinki wasn't a big deal as well?

I also remember he doesn't show reaction when Shishinki launches a Meido at him, so that Inuyasha has to use Kaze no Kizu to save him. Against Magatsuhi, just when the dog form fails, it becomes clear that Sesshomaru is the underdog this time. He sees that Magatsuhi overpowers him in many ways (poison, muscle...). Against Moryomaru, yes, in reality he takes a lot of risk, but I doubt the impression of danger is already that clear, for someone who is as confident and proud as Sesshomaru, who apparently can't imagine himself be killed bu a low class demon.

  • Except it WAS. He was clearly warned, could smell the sword breaking-and how do you explain that in the manga, after the sword breaks, he FLEES, like he's trying to RUN, and then Moryoumaru CATCHES him and starts crushing him? Because he KNEW that he was in danger, and knowingly risked his life.

The impression is important. This is the one who enters the Other World to find Naraku (instead of just waiting for Naraku to come out) after all. We know that without Tenseiga he will die there, most likely be turned into stone. He doesn't know about the light when he comes there, but normally who will allow himself to come into the Other World with all its unknown dangers so easily? He has been warned, more than once, by Kagura. Also, against Moryomaru, if Tokijin lasts a bit longer, Moryomaru can be defeated. That is adventurous, but it's still a plan, unlike against Shishinki.

  • Once again, after Tokijin broke, in the manga Sesshomaru FLEES, basically tries to RUN (or fly) away. Meaning he KNEW he was taking risks.

And are you trying to say that platonic feelings can't be special, that only romantic feelings can be special (so that if Kagura is anything special to Sesshomaru, it MUST be romantic???).

  • When did I say that? I clearly included "lifelong friends and family members" in the example. Do you count lifelong friendships and family relationships as "romantic" as well? Did you even read anything I said?

Thus, imho, if he feels for Kagura more than he feels for Kikyo, we can't conclude that in the case of Kagura, it's something romantic. "MORE" doesn't equal "ROMANTIC", even without the special reason I said above (attitude towards freedom).

  • When did I say that "more" equals romantic? Once again, did you read anything I said? I never said "more" equals romantic. I said that something like this occurs among LIFELONG FRIENDS AND FAMILIES as well.

But there is a difference.

Relationships like the ones between families and lifelong friends take a long time to develop. In order to love someone like family, you have to know them much better than that.

Sesshomaru and Kagura didn't even know each other very well, so that can't be it. Siblings share parent figures. They don't. They're not parent and child, because one of them did not raise the other. They're not lifelong friends because they didn't have time to get to know each other and develop a relationship-which is required in platonic bonds.

A crush, however, does not take so long to develop, you can very well have a crush on someone you don't know well, and crushes CAN very well stir intense emotions in someone (like the ones Sesshomaru's been shown to have for Kagura).

  • First, I did see you said this happened among family members and lifelong friends as well - but that was all I saw at that time. Certainly those kinds of relationship don't count here. I should have said that: I think platonic yet no romantic relationships can arouse between two people who are not blood-related nor knew each other for a long long time.
  • Except there IS a kind of romantic relationship that doesn't take a long time to develop, and stirs intense emotions in people-CRUSHES.

The thing I do know is love has many forms and no one has found it limits yet. What book records the exact minimum time that's necessary for a really solid platnic relationship to be formed?

  • No, there is no mathematical formula. However, there are certain time frames that are DEFINITELY way too short to count.

Based on my personal experience, I humbly disagree that platonic relationships necessarily takes a long time to develope.

  • Are you talking about barely-there relationships such as casual acquaintances? No one has the kind of devotion that Sesshomaru has for Kagura for an "acquaintance". A lifelong friend, yes.

Being one who have platonic relationships, what I can say is the only thing that matters is at what time I'm able to see that my soul and the other's soul share the same stream - the moment I see that, the relationship becomes close at once.

  • Wow. Two people can connect with each other through a conversation, but you can't develop a family-like bond with someone you barely know. Because in order to love someone platonically like that, you have to KNOW THEM.

The stream can be important ideals, fighting spirit.... but it can be just like a precognitive feeling. I just know I meet the right one.

  • Having things in common is not the same as having a relationship/friendship/bond with them.

You writes "you have to", but it seems it applies to YOU and not me.

  • Oh no, I used to think it was possible to make "friends" in one day as well. In middle school, we all think that way-friendships last for a week, people form cliques...but then you grow older, learn more about human relationships and how they work, and you don't throw that word around so easily.

Besides, This is the most famous example of platonic relationship in the Far East I can think of: 伯牙 and 钟子期 http://baike.baidu.com/view/270321.htm. These two met just ONCE their whole life. So we have examples from both real life and history/literature against your arguments.

  • There's a huge difference between THINKING that you're friends/have a deep relationship and ACTUALLY HAVING ONE. If you only met once in your life, you can have infatuation, obsession, casual interest etc. but no actual platonic relationship can be formed with someone you barely know or understand.

My opinion is special people (people with specially designed minds, which I think Sesshomaru is one of) tend to build special spiritual relationship rather quick as well. They're a rare type, so once they decide that someone also belongs to that rare type, things happen quick (and some people tend to have "a sensitive nose", meaning they realize a gem among other stones very quick).

  • Wow, so now you're classifying people as "special" and "not special"? That sounds rather arrogant to me. Tell me, what does one have to do/be in order to qualify as "special"? You're comparing human relationships to noses? Please elaborate, what are these "special" people? You're being extremely general. May I have some specifics?
  • Be free to feel it as arrogant:).For example, here I see a man who's very young, yet keeps high ideals the way a military man will keep, who has many traits of a Confucian ruler, yet treats his brother the way a kid will do, who has traces of a Daoist sage, yet doesn't value life and lacks surviving instincts, who's able to do things that's caring but not kind, cruel but not evil, divine yet realistic, understandable but hardly imitable... That will take hundreds of pages to explain. So I won't explain at all:) And when I mention "nose", I want to refer to the ability of a person to detect exceptional things - the ability, as I hear there in my country, is common among exceptional kings and leaders.
    • That's your view of the character, but you haven't answered my question. So having those qualities makes someone "special" and if you don't have the above character traits, you fall into the "not special" category? What makes one character trait more "special" or "not special" than another anyway?

Again, I humbly advise you to read about "cibei" 慈悲 (Japanese-Buddhist term for compassion) again, and if you do like, about Confucian "ren" 仁 as well, because many things are hard to explain if you are not familiar with those things.

  • You once again seem to make the mistake of assuming I'm western (like people usually do). While I'm not Japanese, I'm Korean, and we're just as influenced by Confucius as the Japanese are.
  • Yet the way you talk about romantic love and write "fleeting compassion", "plain sympathy" makes me feel you are not familiar with those traditional Eastern spiritual materials. Sorry, just my feeling, it's sad that a person with Eastern background writes so - my field of learning focuses a lot on ancient Chinese classics and culture. I see this kind of writing in many non-Easterners (hope those are honest about their origins because this is the Internet after all). Sorry for the mistake.
    • So now, all Eastern people must think/act the same way? Are you promoting stereotypes? When did I downplay or degrade symphathy or compassion in any way? I just said that there was something MORE than that. YOU YOURSELF agreed that in order to love someone, you need something IN ADDITION to compassion. Wow, I'm "sad" now? I think it's quite sad that you feel you need to enforce your opinions on others and even go as far as to disrespect and insult me for disagreeing with you. I don't follow traditional Eastern beliefs, but because of where I come from I'm well aware of what they are-and I also know that what you've done (spamming the board, INSULTING me for disagreeing with you, trying to tell me what to do) is considered very rude, so please don't try to pretend that you live strictly by Eastern principles either.
  • It is nothing like "you live strictly by Eastern principles either":) See what I says below (1). Maybe you will see that I haven't done things I myself consider offensive, if it happens to myself.
    • Some of the things you've done ARE considered offensive in traditional Eastern culture. It's hypocritical of you to try to preach Eastern ideals and then go and do things that are considered offensive in the East.
      • First, there are things that are not accepted anywhere, it seems so. But knowing exactly what they are is another matter.
      • If it's something not accepted anywhere, you'll know what they are REGARDLESS of where you're from. I don't buy that you didn't "know" it was rude to call someone "sad".

What I do to my friends who I respect, I have no reasons to not do it to others whom I don't know. And my friend don't fear what is not truth too.

  • Wow, so you go around telling your friends how "sad" they are?
  • When I say "it's sad that..." (please read my post again!), I mean the EVENT is sad, not the person. The person who feel sad is ME. When I see you write this, I actually wonder how you interpret the whole thing. I think "It's sad when one thinks this or do this" do carry the meaning that "I'm not happy that one does this or thinks that. I did hope someone like that would...". Do you think it's like "YOU are a sad, pitiful creature if you're (not) able to do that thing" or something? Google for "it's sad" and I have "It's sad that we can't treat all Afghans","It's sad that we have to be careful"... It's about the event, not the person! Some people did hope that they couldn't treat all the Afghans, but apparently they can't, they feel that event is sad, they don't call themselves "sad"! Just I did really hope that someone with Eastern background culture would be able to appreciate the compassion thing more: I liked it so I wanted to meet people who liked it, it was a big component in Eastern cultures and it would be more likely that someone who was familiar with it would love it than someone who was not! Great things have natural attractive force, after all. I say it to my friends that "it's sad when even you can't understand me...", "it's sad you (a manga lover) don't understand this manga...", no one ever thinks that I call them "sad" (actually when I saw you write "I "sad"... ", I understood it in the normal way, that you feel sad!). Old people here say that "it's sad that people don't love traditional arts anymore..." Actually they aren't against anyone, they just feel sad becaue they're naturally attached to tradition (even when they're not really into the arts, just think that those arts should be treated better, should be kept). And because my profession is related to classics (I did stress this point right after the sentence), and that profession teachs me how wonderful compassion is, do you think it's natural for me to feel the EVENT that someone who's also familiar and with (somewhat) same background culture to it calls it "fleeting" is a sad thing? If I meant that you were "sad", I said "I was sad of you, as a..., to..." not "It was sad that..."!

I'm a part of my culture too. There are people who think like me. Even if the (not absolute) majority think differently, why can't I act in the way I think proper, if it's not against laws? Everyone is different, right?

  • Go ahead, but NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO AGREE WITH YOU. And if they don't, THEY DON'T HAVE TO LIE ABOUT IT.

What I did to you was absolutely not against laws here.

  • Just because it isn't illegal doesn't mean that no one's gonna find it rude.

A culture finds its life in people who think differently and act differently, do you agree?

  • EXACTLY. That's why I can DISAGREE with you all I want, and if I find you calling me "sad" just because I disagree with you offensive, I can say so.

I repeat again that I don't live strictly by Eastern principles or anything. I value compassion because I think it's a beautiful thing among all the things Eastern traditions bring, NOT because it's Eastern.

  • Then it would've been more accurate to say that you value compassion and NOT bring up Eastern culture in the first place since you weren't living by it.

And you are the one who makes the WRONG assumption again. I absolutely don't remember when I say that I follow Eastern traditions strictly, or anything equals that.

  • You brought up Eastern ideals and preached them. That's close enough.
  • When did I say all of them was good? And there are a big step between "praise" and claim that I follow them strictly. I admire ambitious, political-wise powerful, "magnificient bastard" women like Catherine II, Margrete I Valdemarsdatter to the utmost, and I will find it sad if any person from any culture doesn't show them and the values they symbol the appreciation I think they deserve, especially if that's a woman (not that I think all women have to think the same way). And when I hear that a family or a nation is lead by a wise woman, I'm really really happy. Yet that don't mean I follow those values strictly and claim that I myself always try to learn from them. They are great, but there are other values that're good, and suit me more, because I find myself better, happier as a helper than as a leader. Being ambitious is admirable, but I'm doing things better when I'm not.

If an American says that he's sad because another American, being a American, meaning someone who's familiar with the concept, says "fleeting freedom", should we assume that the former claims that he follows all American values (let's suppose, "freedom" is an important thing in American culture) ? Is it me who is hypocritical, or is it you who makes the assumption too quick? In your culture, is that an acceptable thing?

  • If the person doesn't just say "freedom", BRINGS UP AMERICAN IDEALS, and PREACHES THEM, then YES, he IS claiming that he follows American ideals and not just freedom. It is you who is hypocritical. Also, I don't define my being and values based on a certain "culture"-but being a hypocritical (which you were) is not accepted in ANY of the cultures I've come across.
  • See below. And here I see a person who says that people shouldn't make assumptions on other who they haven't met, makes assumptions on me, at least for the "preventing" thing - I know exactly that I am not, so it's an assumption (you even didn't say "maybe" or "I guess", you even didn't say it as a question). You are the person who violates his/her own principle here.
Romantic love is NOT a version of compassion and can't replace compassion.

  • Actually, in order to love someone in any way, icluding romantically, you have to have compassion for them.

And something I would like you to see, I never writes "fleeting compassion", "plain sympathy"... because I never think only love, romantic or not, can be huge, strong, special.

  • Read above.

And I think Sesshomaru's compassion is so special, because he himself's just that special. There's nothing like : "If your compassion is big enough, it becomes love". Great compassion is just... great compassion, it doesn't have to become love to be great.

  • Once again, compassion IS once of the things you have for someone (IN ADDITION to others) if you love them. So yeah.

I've already said compassion for others depends on the love he has for himself (and all things he holds dear). The greater that love is, the greater that compassion may become. If you find yourself unable to reach the level of compassion Sesshomaru has for Kagura, then I suppose you don't love yourself as much as him, or you don't love freedom as much as him.

  • Are you aware that Sesshomaru is a fictional character and does not exist, whereas I do exist? Sesshomaru's been shown to have insecurities, but the fact that you'd actually think of comparing a person to an ink drawing...and you're trying to "measure" a drawing's "self esteeem"...and the fact that you can actually try to make judgment on someone you've never met because they disagree with you makes me think you take him just a bit too seriously. He's a drawing.
  • He's a drawing. But if you are the author and you want to make your character interesting, you must make him as much a living creature as possible.
    • But you're not the author, and you're not the one writing him. Also, even for authors, there's a downside to taking your character too seriously-if they become too real to you, you run the risk of becoming biased and making a Gary Stu. You take him too seriously.
      • I don't think "if they become too real to you, you run the risk of becoming biased and making a Gary Stu. " at all.
      • You do. If you take you own character too seriously, aka Stephenie Myer who seems to be in love with her own characters, you become biased, don't judge them fairly, don't present them well, and you ruin the story.

Good authors give (different) life(s) to the characters. Authors who create Gary Stus give their life to the character. A character who has more 'life' than another isn't necessarily like the author more, nor he has to be a Gary Stu.

  • The character doesn't have to be anything like the author at all in order to qualify as a Gary Stu. There IS such a thing as an Anti-Sue.

Gollum has a lot of life, I don't hear anyone say that he is Gary Stu.

  • I'm not the hugest LOTR fan so I wouldn't know, but just because he's popular or no one THINKS he's a Stu doesn't mean he isn't one. There are plenty of extremely popular characters who don't have any of the typical Sue traits that are huge author's pets/author avatars.

I'm not Takahashi, certainly, but I think of her as a good author, and personally I feel the 'life' in her characters.

  • There's a difference between being able to relate to a character and just taking it way too seriously. There's a differene between feeling to life in a character and actually treating the drawing like they're people-and when you go as far as to put someone else down because of a drawing, you've crossed the line.

You're an author yourself, amateur or not, right?

  • No, I'm not. Sometimes I write for amusement, but I'm not an aspiring amateur author. I like to read more than anything and any writing I do is strictly out of boredom.

The thing I do know when I create an important character is, I shouldn't think of him as a piece of paper/anything... Good authors gives the character the life and then just let the character lead the creators themselves into his adventure and discovery of his soul and his world.

  • But YOU'RE NOT THE ONE CREATING SESSHOMARU. YOU'RE NOT RUMIKO TAKAHASHI. And even if you were, if you go overboard with trying to "create life", you run the risk of making unbalanced characters. Either way, you take him too seriously if you'd go as far as to make assumptions about an actual person you've never met because of this.

Imho, this manga is a lot about self-esteem. I don't feel the compassion here is too much to be compassion. Many of my countrymen also feel so. So if you feel it unrealistic, I think it's a personal thing, a difference between you and me. And as I say, because I see that the love for yourself and compassion for others relate in size, so the most obvious thing I can think of is your/my/others' love for oneself.

  • Read above. You're sitting here, trying to make assumptions and jump to conclusions about ME, and yet you've never even met me. Exactly what are you basing your claims on? You're right, love for others DOES relate to love for yourself-but YOU went as far as to make claims about my personality. What gives you the right to assume?
    • Sorry, because I told you what I thought. I'm really sorry for being rude. I should have written "(Because my reasoning is this and that) If one can't...., it because she/he....". Also, see below.

I write the Sango example again. Sango loves Miroku, yet in Naraku's body, right at the moment she's all about Miroku and her love for him, she's unable to feel compassion for him.

  • Wait, what? Yes she did feel compassion for him. She was sitting there, worried about his life, feeling COMPASSION for him and his situation and wanting to save him.

If she was able to feel compassion for him, she must have thought that it would be unacceptable for him (as it would be for herself) to be saved because his lover kills an innocent child. I really didn't think she herself would love to live at the cost of a child's life and her lover becoming a murderer.

  • No, it's that her compassion for him was greater than her compassion for Rin and she was willing to make that sacrifice. When and where does she show any signs of blaming Rin's death on Miroku? She clearly blames it on herself.

That's what I've already said. Love without understanding,

  • If you don't understand them, you don't love them. Meaning it's not love.

without awakening, without treating the one you love the way you expect to be treated

  • If you're not treating them the way you want to be treated, then that's not love either.

- That's love without compassion.

  • No, that's NOT LOVE AT ALL. Love without compassion doesn't exist-you have to have compassion for someone in order to love them.

That's Sango and me (in some certain cases) and many others.

'''In short, I see no proof that one must have compassion for someone to love them.

  • Read everything I read above. If you don't have compassion for someone, you're not loving them.

But love is such a crazy thing and has so many versions after all. One of the core parts of compassion is understanding. Compassion doesn't exist without understanding.

  • Actually, compassion by itself-compassion for someone you don't love-CAN occur without understanding. Love, in the platonic sense, cannot.
    • See below. I agree on the "Love, in the platonic sense, cannot". I've never had a thing against this.

Yet, normally, understanding requires time. Yet, like you say yourself, romantic love can arouse so quickly, and even without two parties knowing much about each other. And despite this, you say romantic love, like all kinds of love, requires compassion? Do you see the contradiction here?

  • No, BECAUSE COMPASSION DOES NOT REQUIRE UNDERSTANDING OR TIME. READ ABOVE. Like you said so yourself, you can have compassion for a stranger-you said so yourself you've had COMPASSION for people you barely knew because you could relate to them.
    • Ah, so it is THE MATTER'' here. Because my very first argument is compassion requires understanding
      • Which it doesn't. People feel compassion for people they don't know very well for whatever reason.

(the kind of understanding I call awakening)''' and without understanding, no amount of sympathy, however HUGE, cannot become compassion.

  • Wait, one other thing-you say you believe compassion requires understanding, and understanding takes time. And yet, you don't deny that Sesshomaru and Kagura didn't have much time to get to know each other. And yet, you say he had compassion for her? According to your logic, if compassion requires understanding and understanding requires time, doesn't that mean Sesshomaru COULDN'T have had compassion for her since like you agreed, they didn't have time?

Let people from all kinds of culture, Western and Eastern and others, judge this. Takahashi seems to be an author who like her readers to judge things themselves too.

  • Honestly, I don't think anyone's gonna bother to read this. I didn't even really want to read it that much either due to how long and blinding it was, and if you weren't addressing me directly, I probably wouldn't have.

And once a person has compassion for another, meaning he has understanding, is it a surprise that a platonic love/feelings/relationship is formed based on that, however quick? I don't see "time" as the absolutely necessary factor.

  • Once again, you can have compassion for someone without fully understanding them-you said so yourself and have cited examples.

  • Platonic love can't spring up quickly like romantic love. You said so yourself. Platonic love, unlike romantic, DOES require understanding, which requires time. So yes, time is necessary.
    • Whether I said so myself or not, the others will see. Although I remember I used your opinion on that matter to show the contradiction.
      • Read above. Also, if compassion requires understanding and understanding requires time, doesn't that mean Sesshomaru couldn't have had compassion for Kagura like you claim since you've agreed yourself that they didn't have time?

I think here I've explained my opinion already quite clearly:). Summary of my opinion: I see Tenseiga, the sword with "compassion" as its keyword, reacts so I decide that it is compassion

  • Except he's shown compassion plenty of times to others, and the sword did not react like that before. If it required only compassion, it would've reacted much sooner. So obviously what's changed it into a fighting sword is different from what's required to use it.
    • Or because all the compassion he has shown before is not strong enough, like (as I remember) you said yourself? A car won't run with a drop of gasoline, will it? Yet people say: "Car needs gasoline (or at least energy)".
    • What? So the compassion he had for Rin wasn't strong enough? He's shown plenty of compassion just as strong before then, and it didn't react like that. Kagura wasn't the first one there. Also, the relationship you have with the person/love you have for them does affect the amount of compassion you have for them so yes, it was somehow different.
I think Sesshomaru loves himself and his principles enough to have that kind of compassion, without romantic love, for one with admirable traits that he can relate to himself. I think it's beautiful that a hero (meaning people with exceptional characteristics), cold as he may seem, admires another hero and perform unimaginable deeds for her/him, without personal attachments.
  • But is he? Remember, this is Sesshomaru, and he doesn't go out and do things for people for no reason. There have been plenty of instances where he just didn't care. The characters were suffering, many of them under similar circumstances, and yet he reacts differently to certain people-even if their situations aren't so different from someone else's.

As far as I see, some of the major differences between us here are: whether compassion can be huge and lasting without the factor of romantic love (changed: love) or not; one can establish deep platonic feelings for someone he doesn't spend too much time with or not; 'repeated' compassion (even if it was as you mentioned) for a person who is not one's life long friend nor family members must mean romantic relationship or not.

  • When did I say that compassion couldn't be lastic without romantic love? I made it clear it could be lasting with PLATONIC love as well, just that it does require SOME kind of love.

  • Deep ones? No.

  • When did I say that repeated compassionate acts must mean ROMANTIC relationship? I NEVER SAID THAT. I said it leads to A RELATIONSHIP. Meaning it can lead to PLATONIC ONES AS WELL. However, it does lead to SOME SORT OF RELATIONSHIP. But they don't know each other anywhere near enough to be "lifelong friends" or "family", so it can't be that. A crush, though, does not take long to develop and CAN stir intense emotions and create deep devotion.

I probably won't say anything more (though I'm not absolutely sure).

  • Well, if you won't then I won't. But if you do, I probably will.

Sorry, I wrote this in that horrible Wordpad application, when you are editing things, and I feel a bit lazy (and tired now), so I post the whole thing here and just adds some lines to the above. Please forgive me for this:).

  • You see it as spamming, I don't. I invest my precious time into this. I'm not without other jobs to do. As far as I understand, spamming is writing without serious intentions (to explain or argue), right? If it is so, then you are the one who is making the wrong assumption about me. Because I write every single line with very serious intentions:).
    • From wikipedia: Spam is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages indiscriminately. Your entries are definitely "bulk"-y, I didn't ask for them, and it definitely doesn't look like you carefully organized them-you're just going on and on. Looks like spam to me.
      • Iliad can be huge, and no one says it's spam. I don't understand "I did ask for them part". And when you are editing my post, actually in my opinion, you make them look more unorganized. I'm a newbie here. yet I can still see that.
      • Iliad is a POEM, not a message sent online. Spam is unwanted, that's why I specified that I didn't ask for them. And once again, I STOPPED SHORTENING YOUR POSTS.
      • When you separate components in a statement, you make it look more messy to my eyes too.But I don't exactly complain about the "editing" part here. I just wonder are you really good at organizing things. I am a messy person in real-life, but I can say I do put my effort in organizing things. Maybe it doesn't look that good. Yet I think spams can look not messy, and I do find some valuable posts from others that look messy - My and those people's habit is a bad thing, bad for ourself, because we know that people would want to look at us more if we can be more tidy, but it's not like we mean to disrespect or annoy anyone or something, and we are serious when we post those (I care about my precious time too, like I told you). Whoever creates spams and really invest their ideas into those at the same time? Just my opinion, These're not spams. And as I said below, when I wrote this I expected you to come, but it was not only because of you. I expected other people to join as well. If you didn't come, I would still state my opinions, for myself and for others. My targets were all who cared about this business. It was not like this was/is your private mailbox! At least there is one receiver (of the messages)who want this: me. And the desciption has the "indiscriminately" part. I do things seriously and selectively here. I could use all the time I use here on big forums with a large audience, with a larger scale of tools (and I like the editing thing in the forums much more). Even registering multiple times would cost less time for me! Yet I chose to invest my time here - I hope you see that. I actually cared about the matter, I hope that discussions would help me to see my weak points.

I don't see this as an argument which just needs a brief conversation.

  • Then you take it too seriously. It's a fictional pairing, not a life-or-death situation.

Because I do see many people (without bias) don't see the situation as me or you, and I have no reason to assumpt that they are stupid so they can't see things that are too clear:)

  • Wow, so I'm stupid now and "not seeing things that are too clear" just because I don't agree with you?
    • I wrote "as me and you". That meant if whoever was right, NOTHING from both parties was too clear for anyone who is not too stupid (as far as I can see) can see. Do you understand it now?
      • Wait, another contradiction. If "nothing" was too clear, that means that it wasn't too clear. So were our points clear or "not" too clear?
      • I think the fact that they are clear, not clear or not "too clear" (by my or your standard) doesn't matter. The thing I wanted to say is, many people without bias, and not without intelligent, can't automatically see what I or you see, can't decide 100% that this is love or compassion, when they read the manga. So those facts are not clear enough for them (And those people matter much in deciding the 'public', 'mainstream' view on this matter)

And maybe you will understand this, if you don't keep editing my posts saying the reason is they are too long, then I won't have anything against it. In my humble opinion, it's not an appropriate reason to edit someone's posts.

  • First of all, I stopped editing your posts since you asked me to-unlike you, I can respect the other person's wishes, even if they're not being respectful of me. Second of all, yes it is. This is a wiki for others, not your onw personal diary. You have to be respectful of the fact that the people reading, including the person you're talking to, may not want to go through pages and pages of TL;DR. Others have edited your posts before, citing the same reason-you should know this by now.

(1)Sorry, it's not my intent to disrespect you. I don't know where is the exact place you come from, what cultural backrounds you have, so I don't know whether such comments are acceptable in your culture or not. Thus, I just do things based on the principle of compassion here:).

  • There are certain things that aren't acceptable ANYWHERE. Common sense.
    • I have no comments. Let people see.

At least on Internet, I don't mind when people making asumptions about myself, even if you think I act like a whore, feel free to say it:) Certainly I expect to see some reasoning behind it. But I like people to tell me what they think about me (the "long post" incident is because of the specified reason I say above) . Right or wrong we have another people to judge - I don't fear what is not truth.

  • And yet, you got offended just because I said your posts were too long. Sure sounds like you "don't mind".
    • Read what I wrote above. Not "JUST".
      • But it WAS "JUST". I STOPPED shortening your posts. Even afterwards, you complained.
      • Did I say again that now you couldn't say that my post was too long anymore, once I had made it clear that the action was what troubled me? I just said it shouldn't be used as a reason to editing things. You say I am hypocritic, this and that, why do you think I just reacted by "keep it to yourself" against the "too long" thing? First, I haven't noticed that you has stopped (and I thank you for that. Believe it or not, it depends on you. I just say that and I hope you understand. Certainly I apologize that I didn't notice that you had stopped:) ). Second, because apparently you still think it's a right thing to do, so I feel have a reason to worry that it will happen again. So I think I should state my opinions on the matter as clearly as possible. Even if you won't do it anymore, I think I should make it clear that editing others' comments, in general, is not a nice thing to do, so anyone else won't do it to my posts in future

And again, you're making asumptions about me here. By all things I respect, I can say that I have no idea of preventing you from doing something when I push "Edit".

  • Then why'd you tell me to "stop editing your posts" and "not say they're too long"? Sounds like you're trying to prevent me from editing down your posts to me.
    • I am saying about the post in which you said that I keep checking or doing something to prevent you. I don't want you to edit my posts, but I don't knowingly do anything to actually prevent you from it.
      • Then you don't have to worry, because like I said, I STOPPED SHORTENING YOUR POSTS.

I has spent most of my morning and all my afternoon to edit things I wrote, until now I havent finished editing things yet. What I wrote are long, do you think it's very respectful to leave something full of (all kinds of) mistakes for people to read, once you think you can improve it much more.

  • They're still filled with mistakes. Also, you need to edit them so that they're briefer and not so filled with needless clutter.
    • I don't see it as clutter. Just that. Meaning if you just said that and didn't do the action that realized your idea, which I didn't appreciate, I would have no idea. And I said I wanted to see reasoning behind the assumption. Why was it too long, you didn't tell me.
      • Once again, I STOPPED SHORTENING YOUR POSTS. AND YOU'RE STILL COMPLAINING. If one entry takes up pages and pages, it's obviously too long.
      • See above:) And just my opinion, arguments are either right or wrong, exact or not exact. There are books that talk about a single matter, and is still too short. I don't consider my self as one who always know "enough". But when I post an argument on a forum, I always have a serious idea, I really hope that someone will tell me whether it's right, wrong, or rubbish. If you just tell me that it's too long, I will feel dissapointed and confused. I promise you, that if I see anything that's unnecessary, I won't write (because as I've said, it costs me my time, too). This's a discussion page, and if people don't want to read what I write, they don't have to look at it, they will just have to post their arguments ABOVE my posts. I don't feel that annoying myself. And believe me, texts like this, even hundreds of pages, do not take that much resources:) That's one of the reasons why we love Internet, right? And as far as I know, one can make a folder if things are too long, right?

And also, I didn't know it's an acceptable thing here to edit a DISCUSSION PAGE with a reason like IT'S TOO LONG. Now I know - SORRY for MY IGNORANCE.

  • Common sense. It's a discussion page, meaning you'll be conversating with others, and you need to communicate properly. It's a public site, meaning others will be reading, and you need to present your thoughts well. It's a WIKI-whenever you make ANY kind of change on a wiki, you're editing someone else's previous entry.
  • I don't see it as not "well" just that. And imho, you need better arguments than "it's too long (who can judge?) so it's not communicating properly".
    • The person that you're CONVERSATING WITH, the person who HAS TO READ what you've written can judge whether it's too long for them or not. Or are you gonna say that the entry wasn't intended for me to read?
      • For the original matter, the "edit" thing, I think I (and you) make it quite clear above. And I say again you actually can judge it, all the things that trouble me are with the action problem.
Yet I see shortening people's public arguments without noticing the people in question first as a bad thing. I think that does not depend on cultures too.
  • No, it isn't. There's nothing wrong with correcting someone, or even if that's not the case, when the entry in question was intended for YOU to read, letting them know what you'd rather not read. Any time you edit ANY wiki, you're editing the entry of the person who wrote before you. Like you said, it's a PUBLIC entry, and you have to be considerate of others who use the site. This is NOT your personal blog.
  • I intend (and intended) for you to read, but if you notice, I always intend for other to read too. I don't write that long just to make you change your ideas. This is not an (wiki) information page - with information pages, if people choose to get and use information from them, they accept the risk, that's only their business and not the person whose entries are changed. But on a discussion page, the first purpose is making people believe in one's personal ideas, they don't go there to get information! Yes, public entries, but personal ideas. Even if my entries are not presented in the best way, what will happen if the person who edits it (I don't say it's you, just talk generally) make the sentence display an opinion that's not MINE anymore, and people still think that's MINE (because many won't bother looking at the history page, or don't know it)? And one of the kind of editing I fear the most is shortening (another is separating components in the same statement). "I don't love you" and "I don't love you enough" and "I don't love you enough to sell my soul to you" are very different,do you agree? (I don't say YOUR editing has that same effect). But generally, that's my fear. I don't know it's against laws or not. I just think it's not very fair:) I hope I haven't done anything like that to you or anyone.

  • This thing. "This entry is checked out until 01:42 Pacific Standard Time by soojinyeh." It seems you can decide the time you use to edit or something like that. I don't know how to make it work for me. I just edit and reedit.
    • Ah, I know why now. But I leave it as that for you to see that I'm just learning about this website. I really doesn't understand how to fully control things:)
      • I've seen you around, making entries, editing and being edited. You've been around for at least a month, and others have told you to before that your entries were too long.
      • Others? If there are, I haven't seen it. And I don't spend all the time on this site. And I learn a site's features not that fast.
      • You're not aware? You've made several edits on entries, sometimes on entries after someone else had come and shortened your entry. How can you not be aware when you returned to the entry after it had been edited?
      • Yes. I give you my words on this again. And reasons? I write on many forums and did various activities of many kinds. I didn't have the best memory as well - sometimes after two or three days, if I look at my post again, I can't remember what is lacked there anymore. Sometimes I post the same ideas on various sites, but I never write a thing the same way - thus, if you can imagine, if I see a thing a bit different (yet still know that it's my ideas), sometimes I assume that I was in a strange mood when I wrote. I didn't check history pages that often. I remember once I saw something really strange, I look at the history page, but the page has already been edited too many times, so... (just recently I learned that we could expand that page to see more)

It seems you don't understand what I said. I never write long if I don't feel it necessary to do so.

  • This isn't your personal page. Sometimes I want to write longer entries as well, but it's a shared site-and you need to be respectful of other peoples' space.
    • Yes, and as you desire, if I think short words are not enough, then I won't state my opinions anymore (and I will apply this on this discussion page from here)
If you see anything I write as wasteful, then just post your opinions, don't bother replying to me anymore.
  • I did post my opinions. And don't try to tell me what to do. You initated the conversation, and I can respond.
    • You said I wasted your time. It seemed you complained about the fact you ***had*** to use your time on me.
      • You WANTED me to use my time, didn't you? That's why you initiated the conversation and you keep talking to me-make up your mind, do you want me to talk to you or not? Or are you trying to have a conversation by yourself? What do you want?
      • I expected you talked to me. But how can one wastes your time? And I don't expect people who think they waste their precious time talking to me to do so. Like if I'm in danger, I expect to be saved, but if a person comes and tell me he will do this but he will have to risk his life and it's me who make him waste his life, I will tell him "don't bother save me then".

I still hope you leave it as it is, because I see it as necessary.

  • Was it "necessary" for you to initiate the conversation in the first place? Why'd you even begin the discussion if you didn't want a response? Were you planning on having a conversation with yourself?

Leave my posts as it is, meaning don't shorten it. This is my personal request. To me, it's either my full posts are kept, I don't like other people to see "shortened", "edited" things. I ask you to either stop editing my posts, keep the FULL conversation or erase everything. The previous time, I didn't edit things (that I wrote) into the former state, NOT because of I saw that I indeed did write unnecessary things, just I had reasons I thought shouldn't be stated here, or else someone might say I made ridiculous assumptions:)

  • Did you even read through anything? I DIDN'T edit your posts. Unlike you, I can actually respect someone else's wishes. I just put my responses there.

Yet when I edited things the previous day, I didn't see my Sango/Miroku post, which I posted before. At that time I couldn't think of no one else (so I did say I posted that example AGAIN). Sorry if it wasn't YOU.

  • LOOK AGAIN. THAT ENTRY DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE. Maybe if you hadn't made this page so long in the first place, you wouldn't have such a hard time keeping track of everything.
    • Yes, my bad. But see above, too:)But now do you realize I really didn't notice that you stopped shortening things, when I post my requests?

And you REALLY think you don't tell me to do this and not that?

  • I didn't. I simply told you that your entries were too long-respectfully-and edited them down (so that they mean the same thing) so they'd be easier to read, and when you started complaining, I STOPPED.
    • Then just keep your opinion. I just have to conclude that: Things like "And like you don't plug your ears and REFUSE to listen to anything I say?" are too respectful to my ears. Feel free to ask where is the "not respectful" part and where is the "tell you to do this and not that":)I believe that respect is in someone's heart, not just words - feel free to understand in whatever way you can.

I should have made one thing clear: change things I wrote back to its former state. I've the rights to think that my posts are not too long and deserve to be posted again too. Right?

  • And I'm making one thing clear: AFTER YOU ASKED ME NOT TO SHORTEN YOUR POSTS, I STOPPED.

I know that is what you think, that facts and reasons lead to the conclusion that he loves her romantically. You don't have to repeat it:). Just point out your fact and reasons. I point out my facts and reasons, too - if you don't consider them to be so, that's your right. Let people judge:)

  • Which I DID. I've pointed out my "facts and reasons" plenty of times. And how can you sit here and tell me not to "repeat myself" because you think it's unnecessary after going on and on about wanting to say whatever you want? If you can say things I feel aren't needed, I can "repeat myself" whether you think it's necessary or not.
    • I say "you don't have to", not "you can't do something", meaning I feel that I've already knew it, nothing more, nothing less. You can, just you don't have to. I see what you do as "bulky", "too long", "redundant" too (but I don't, and won't edit them).
      • And like I said, after you started complaining, I STOPPED SHORTENING YOUR POSTS.
      • Yes, I know it now. See above.
Now I stop here. THANKS. It seems continuing will lead to nowhere, you see, you say I write too long, and yet it never seems enough to make at least you understand what I say in many cases. So just stop here.
  • Are you really? You've stated before that you were done, but you've continued each and every time. If you didn't want me to respond, why'd you even address me in the first place? On top of that, my entries are NOWHERE near as long as yours. I can be redundant as well, but I don't go on for pages for a single entry almost EACH AND EVERY TIME. And like you don't plug your ears and REFUSE to listen to anything I say? I don't know, are you really stopping?
    • First, yes, you have a talent in writing things that are shorter than mine - I gladly admit this. But when do I say that your posts are longer than mine? And on the matter of "long is redundant" or things like that, I think we shouldn't discuss here. Because it's discussed above. And I PROMISE you this will be the last time (and you see that this time I already leave the Kagura/Sessh matter as it is, even some new things you post are hard to resist to reply). When I decided to reply to you this time, it troubled my conscience a lot (because I didn't leave a message that I would probably return here if I felt necessary like the previous times). Yet I couldn't resist to some of your questions and comments (on me and my behaviors) above - my bad. When I post questions, I often want to be replied. "And like you don't plug your ears and REFUSE to listen to anything I say?" If I don't listen, how can I reply you now? And why do I bother listening to your opinions (which I do), when this world has billions of people who I can spend my time to talk to? If I don't care about your opinions, I won't reply. Sorry, I'm not the best at memorizing things and understanding things, and a bit lazy (my horrible flaw, I know) too, sometimes maybe I miss something in what you say. But many times I become confused because your post doesn't match the idea I mention. I listen but I don't understand - and it does increase my laziness and lower the will to read, I admit (yet normally, when I argue with a person, if I really want to refuse emotionally, I often try to force myself to read more).

Look at this example:

"And after that does he have any chance to use Tenseiga on her till the Hell arc?" I was talking about Rin's case alone. Because I wanted to compared Rin's situation with Kagura's.

  • "There were others he could've drawn it for, such as the otter child. And yet, Tenseiga still had to PULSE." You replied with "others" - that made me confused.

Or:

  • "First. The situation in Hell has already been dealed with. Rin is saved. Those people are saved. The similarity he sees in Hell is a temporary reality: Rin is dead, those other people are dead. Kagura's problems haven't been dealt with." -The thing I was talking about was because Rin and those people are saved, the situation, the temporal reality "she's dead, they are dead" has been dealt with. IF they were NOT saved, I would consider that "hasn't been dealt with". IF Kagura WERE saved, I probably would consider that "has been dealt with" as well.
So I was like "????????" when I saw this post of you:
  • " Actually, at the time Tenseiga called Totosai and at the time he broke Tokijin, KAGURA WAS DEAD AS WELL. Meaning, her situation had "already been dealt with" just like Rin because "she was dead"."

Or:

  • When I mentioned that the a mount of compassion he had shown (towards Rin, others) before he met Kagura was not enough,(my background thinking, which I made clear here all the time was: He always acted instinctively on love towards Rin, he didn't acted on understanding/awakening so no matter how much the emotion/sympathy was, it was not enough because basically it was not compassion - 1 )you argued that but he had shown a lot compassion to Rin, meaning towards Kagura, it was different! You see, very short, but very depressing for me. Actually you could just prove that "what he showed towards Rin was compassion, too, and it had to be a lot in amount, because..." or pointed me to the part you said that. Actually, there was only one point we should made clear: compassion needed understanding or not?

  • The same case with why I mentioned what he had towards Rin was not only compassion (infact, very little compassion, a lot of love) - because you had compared Rin's case with Kagrura's before I did that, (which made me thought that) you wanted to say "he didn't treat Rin the same way he treated other sufferes so it must be different (2), he didn't treat other sufferers the same way he treated Kagura, so it must be different". My reply meant I totally agreed with point 2 (but I didn't agree with the next part because no others sufferers was really like Kagura, or if they were, he couldn't realized it as much clearly as in Kagura's case 3). Rin's part indeed needed no question at all, so when you asked me about it, it totally confused me.

  • This's about understanding, not about Sessh/Kagura matter

  • And probably sometimes I did the same thing to you, when my mind was a bit tired, too? Though I could promised you that I always tried to understand your background thinking:).

    • '''But from now on probably I have to REFUSE to listen to you, like you said, because if I continue to listen, I probably fall into depression again (that was my fault to listen and want to listen to you, I don't blame you=)) ).Yet feel free to see it as an insult if you want. Just my opinion, you seems to be the over-sensitive type. "You force me to...", "You insults me", "it's not acceptable", "it's offensive"... Does it make you happy to find the worst possibility in people's words or something? - Yes, I'm making assumptions about you again! I think sometimes in this coversation, actually I did said something I should not have said - and now I say "sorry" for all of that, yet you just imagined too much. And the real sad thing was, do you know? :) I see that, what I said towards you orgininally was not really as horrible as you described, but when we argued, we both lost real respect for each other. And that would never help a discussion at all. And the way you repeat things, it's like you try to assure yourself and dominate me or something =)), I feel the emotions behind that (Moryomaru must have meant so when he said he felt Sessh's emotions), and that's something I am trying to to tell myself not to do when I have some insecurities. But you're... really interesting. Sometimes I get really angry, sometime I just want to laugh. Your accusations are irritating and funny too. Yes, I'm a liar, I'm a weirdo, I'm a hyppocrite (is that how it's spelled? I'm too lazy to check), I'm verrry arrogant, I like to make people do things my ways and I like to see you frustrated! Why didn't I tell you that this morning, so I could focus on my exams today, and make you happy and make me happy? I'm quite proud of my bad guy side, why did I argue in the first place? But, haha, you know what, I'm a liar so maybe what I've said are a lie too :( :)

    • Just, to say it seriously, I'm a person with a lot of flaws, and a lot of that lot, like you said, are not acceptable in any culture (that I know). But here, I feel the important thing was I had tried to have a serious discussion on the topic. Even when now I'm feel comfortable to tell you I'm a liar, does it make you feel more comfortable? Sometimes I like to see that the one who argue with me is bad, so what he/she say is without value:) But it the end it never erases my insecurities about what he/she says - and that's what I really care about, not his/her personality, nor that I'm superior to him/her morally. Certainly, I'm sorry if this's not true in the case of you (and I'm sorry because I'm making assumptions about you again now :) ). Just a liar can also say a thing that's "righter" than righteous people can say.
    • But. in the end, you did give me some more will to consider my morals, and I thank you for that (just it's still hard because somehow I also like my bad side - certainly that liking can be troublesome;) ). But at least I really like to explore myself:)

    • And even about compassion, I like it, really. But I admit I don't follow it all the time (nor that I think I should, just I haven't followed it enough), just... when people think it's fleeting or something like that. I'm trying to understand why. In the old times it seemed politicians did think romantic love was a fleeting thing too - but because who they were, I think I should try to understand them a bit . I think both are the real things and deserve some credit - sometimes I doubt - like Kikyo said, humans are doubt - but in the end I decide at least they are great enough for me to explore them again and again:)
    • I'm in the mood of doing things in Takahashi's ways. She seems to like to let the readers guess/judge/whatever... As a creator she does leave a lot ambiguity. And in my country people talk about the right of the readers to be the co-creators. And with an author who seems to invite that... why not? Takahashi doesn't say it's romantic love, the story leaves it ambiguous. I like compassion, so it must be compassion. And here fans support Sessh/Rin, at least I don't have to hear about Sessh/Kagura all the time if I don't want. At least Sessh/Rin is more crazy. And think about it, what is the problem with it if it's a possibility? The ambiguity is not ruined, I'm happy with that. Love and even desire to have sex are not bad things, in any case. What will you do with them are the thing that matters. Here people did marry kids. Don't know what happened in Japan. But he's a demon, the girl's a human, so who knows what kind of morals they had to obey? Maybe primitive morals? And had to, Sesshomaru? Thank gods that not all the authors feel the need to modernize things just to make it "politically correct".BYE BYE. And I forget, feel free to think this is a spam. But please don't separate it into pieces to reply. Poor it, poor me. I can't return. I 've promised you, but I have to keep that promise to myself, the hypocrite I am (if I edited this again, this would be before the time I thought you would come back again)'''

What I meant was what he had for Rin wasn't only (yet, *only*) compassion, it was something other than that, it was love.

  • And when did I ever imply that you said he didn't love her?

I don't see what he does for Kagura as something he won't do for himself. That's another difference between us, right?

  • And what he did for Rin WAS something he wouldn't do for himself? You think he wouldn't save himself if he was in danger?

This is a spirited young man with ideals and principles after all. In deed, I have no way to prove it in a totally solid way, except if Takahashi says so. If I want to do so, I must split Sesshomaru into two: Sessh1 suffers under Naraku's control and fights bravely for freedom, and then dies, Sessh2 fights Moryomaru, and this bastard utters insolent words about Sessh1's fight and death... - I have no way to do this, and I believe you can't do it to prove he wont do those thing for himself, too:)

  • When did I say that he wouldn't have done so IF he was put in that position? I said that HE WAS NEVER IN THAT POSITION. He wasn't under Naraku's control fighting for his freedom. I never said anything about what he would've done IF he was ever in that situation.

Yet look at the Meido battle, think about why when he jumps into the Meido to give Inuyasha that technique, he doesn't open a Meido himself to save both his and his brothers'life first, and instead gives the technique right away to a heavily injured, poisoned and inexperienced Inuyasha, and then reacts (casually) to his and his brother's death with the attitude "That's your sword now. Deal with it in your own way", you will see how this man treat his own life (and his brother's life, and the battle against Naraku, and the revenge for Kagura, and the duty of protecting others), and instead value his right to do things in his own way. All in all, I believe insults, in general, can REALLY make him act abnormally, if they hit the right targets (I'm having Shishinki in my mind).

  • Yes, they have to hit the right targets, meaning it has to be something that HE REALLY CARES ABOUT. His reaction to the insults towards Kagura is proof he REALLY CARES ABOUT HER.

I don't say physical freedom is more meaningful. But if you fight all your life and then must pay the price of death to get rid of physical control, that will be a very stupid and painful situation, right? Gaining physical freedom just only to be dead! In my opinion, living or dead, a soul can seek its spiritual freedom (that deals with your religion-related problems, though). Kikyo isn't put into this situation: living means being a slave, freedom (whatever kind of freedom it is) means death.

  • The above may be how YOU think, but still haven't answered my initial question. But what evidence do you have that Sesshomaru values spiritual freedom any less than physical? He's been shown to value mental freedom.

Do you have any proof that he has heard Kikyo and Naraku's full conversation and knows exactly what her problems are?

  • Are you serious? When he steps out, he comments on what he heard, what Naraku said ("all that just to kill one woman"), he wasn't exactly far away (and even if he was, he has demon hearing), and the two hadn't exactly been talking for a long time. How could he not? Looks like Rumiko had him step out like that and comment on what he saw to show that he overheard it all.

Also, on Mt Hakurei he says Kikyo is already a dead person made of bone and soil.

  • That doesn't make her situation or struggle any different now, does it? If Sesshomaru gave compassion based on the person's struggle, then it wouldn't have mattered WHAT their body was MADE OF.

I see death to such a person is a relief, much more than anything - Wandering around seeking revenge will just make a soul fall deeper into spiritual slavery. Just my thing about religions and beliefs. But again, some monks in Inuyasha seem to agree with me.

  • Once again, that's you-where does it say that's how Sesshomaru feels? And...what, Sesshomaru is a monk now?

It seems I have another opinion on physical and mental/spiritual control. Is Kikyo really controlled by anyone/anything besides her own hatred? That's what I call true spiritual control.

  • No duh, that's why I said "spiritual/mental" control. Also, her mental state is directly influenced by Naraku and what he did to her/continues to do to her.

Magatsuhi directly manipulates Kohaku's body-parts. That's a type of physical control. Naraku can't do that to Kagura. But he uses something important to her to control her (her heart). I consider that "physical" And that's what I see similar to the way he tries to control Sesshomaru using Rin, who is important to him.

  • No, using Rin is mental control. Kagura will die if Naraku squeezes her heart-her heart is a part of her body. Physical control. Rin is not a part of Sesshomaru's body-he is not gonna die if Naraku does whatever with her. Naraku's preying on his love for her, which is spiritual/mental manipulation. Also, he doesn't even know about Naraku holding Kagura's heart. He only knows that she's his slave somehow.

If Sesshomaru is weak, he will become Naraku's puppet. At first Kagura also tries to use Shikon shards to make him follow her plan - it seems he sees this as an act of manipulation and avoids it.

  • Which was mental bribery and not physical control and shows that yes, he DOES resent mental/spiritual manipulation. Threatening Rin threatens his SPIRIT, not his BODY.

Then Jakotsu, and even his mother (and his deceased father!) try to use the little girl to make him do something they have planned.

  • Which is a form of mental manipulation, not physical force/control.

And he seems to absolutely hates to simply follow what others plan for him (except when he thinks he can use it to his advantage, like in the Meido battle). Thus I see that he is similar to Kagura and not Kikyo (and if he's similar to Kikyo, he doesn't know it,

  • Except threatening Rin is a threat to his MIND, not BODY-threatening Kagura's heart is a threat to her BODY, and he was resisting mental control while she was resisting physical. Also, he doesn't even know that her heart is in Naraku's hands, he just knows she wants to be free. So he doesn't exactly know the specifics of Kagura's plight either, just that there is one.

whether he knows her problems or not;and when he knows that obsession is his problem, Kikyo is already dead

  • And at the time Tenseiga changed/he broke Tokijin, KAGURA WAS ALREADY DEAD.

and even if he starts to develope compassion for her since then, we won't see Sesshomaru sits in a corner lamenting on her, will we? He has to deal with his problems first. And after he finishes, her soul is also liberated quite soon)

  • Why not? He did that with Kagura (sitting on the rock after he broke Tokijin) when she was ALREADY DEAD, so if he shows compassion based on the person's situation, why should Kikyo being dead matter when it didn't matter for Kagura?

He may doesn't care about how tragic it can be. I don't care about tragic as well. But what I want to say is a more tragic circumstance usually moves a heart more. It's just natural, one doesn't have to think if it's tragic or not. It, like the fact that woman has been fighting bravely against her fates, highlights all the similarities, all the suffering. Maybe Kanna suffers just as much, but her circumstance and actions (as far as Sesshomaru can see with his own eyes) doesn't show that as much.

  • But if you're moved more by something than another BECAUSE it was more "tragic", it means you DO care about how "tragic" something is. If you didn't care, how "tragic" something is wouldn't affect you.

"What? A stranger is someone you've NEVER met before. If this is the third time you're doing something for them, they're obviously NOT strangers anymore."

  • I dont know what you are trying to talk about:) Have I ever said Kagura is a stranger to him?
    • In the example of yourself you gave, you claimed that you had a relationship with these "strangers" and yet, you'd met them THREE TIMES.

I was trying to say that those people he met in Hell were strangers who he hadn't met before, and didn't meet again after that, Kagura was not, she was an ally, and he saw her in trouble many times, obviously he has more chances to help her than those people.

  • Once again, I was talking about the example you gave when you were talking about YOURSELF.

So I don't see what he does for her, except the Moryomaru incident, and reactions to her death to some extent, are something really abnormal (and those abnormal things are done because of a special reason, and that's not romantic love). And we all know what kind of relationship we're talking about, right? But, yeah, my bad, colleagues have 'relationship', enemies have 'relationship', even between I and my mother's colleagues there are some sort of 'relationship'... If you or anyone for that matter, say that their relationship is... alliance, I have nothing against it:)

  • So now you agree that it IS a relationship. That's what I was saying. I was saying that those people in hell, though he showed compassion for them, were different from Kagura in that they didn't have a relationship with them. And once again, the devotion he shows for Kagura is deeper than what he shows for people like Inuyasha and Kagome who are his "allies".

If a slave does a thing, isn't it safe to assume that her master orders her to do so?

  • No. Not EVERYTHING a slave does is ordered by their master, and Kagura's done things not Naraku didn't order her to do.

And what I think about the Kohaku accident is that is exactly the thing that changes him: he sees that there are the one who suffers among Naraku's minions as well, that there are those who are forced to do things they don't want, they don't deserve to be attacked as much as Naraku. He lets Kohaku go in the end. And when he finally sees the one who fights against Naraku and her fates so strongly, among all those reincarnations and other slaves, a strong compassion begins to form.

  • But he still attacked him, and acknowledged what he did. With Kagura, it was like he completely forgot/ignored that it even happened.

I know the Naraku thing is important to him. Just I don't think he's like Kikyo, Miroku, Sango or Inuyasha when it comes to Naraku group.

  • Regardless of the reason, it's, like you said, very important to him and he wouldn't throw away a chance to kill Naraku unless it was something that mattered to him a lot.

Think about the reason he follows Naraku in the first place. Because of his love for Rin? It seems Jaken, who seems to know him best

  • ...I don't think Jaken knows him best. Jaken likes to pretend he knows him best, but he's been wrong plenty of times.

and Inuyasha, too, don't think so. I don't think so too (And just think about it, if Naraku deserves to be killed for kidnapping Rin, then Sesshomaru's mother, who released the Hellhound that leads to the fact her life is taken again, deserves what? Sesshomaru is not that happy with her after Rin's death, but he shows no strong reaction even BEFORE the girl is revived).You read the guidebook, right? Sesshomaru is just like that. Once he sets a target/decides to do something, he follows it and is able to endure a long journey until he gets what he wants, but if suddenly he has little attachment/fidelity to the cause. Just because we see he works hard to kill Naraku, it's not like he sees killing Naraku is his holy duty or something.

  • And when did I ever imply that THAT was the reason he was after Naraku? I think that was a writing fumble on Takahashi's part-she wanted the plot to revolve around killing Naraku, but was having trouble giving every character a good reason and messed up. Regardless, it's something important to him (like you said)and he wouldn't throw aside a chance to kill Naraku unless it was something he cared about a lot.

I don't remember any scene that he tries to attack Jakotsu and Suikotsu after Rin is saved.

  • What does it matter whether it was during, before or after? He still fought them, trying to save her, and he DIDN'T just let them get away with it. You made it sound like he just stood there, not doing anything.

I think, all reasonable people knows that "Then that makes even LESS sense because the life of a living person being threatened is a much more urgent, important matter than the memory of a dead person."

  • Exactly. You made it sound like the memory of a dead person was more important, more urgent somehow than a living person's life.

Yet emotion-related things doesn't have to be reasonable to work. Or else no one will kill oneself because their loved ones are dead (when he/she still has other people/things to care about), right?

  • Exactly. You made it sound like what he did for Kagura was no different from what he did for Kohaku because he was just doing the reasonable thing-and yet, like you said, it wasn't. He had a much more EMOTIONAL reaction to Kagura.

Also, if anything, a compassionate/kind man would be angry at what Sango has done - because he himself would never do so, it would be hard for him to accept that kind of behavior from others. He might not kill her for revenge, but it would be naturally that he would act emotionally, display sadness and angry. It's totally against compassion to do so. Yet this man acts not that emotionally against her.

  • But he's still growing more compassionate, he's much better at the end (when the Sango incident took place) than earlier (when everything with Kagura happened). It was more in character for him to act that way at that point than earlier, so his reaction to Sango at the end isn't as noteworthy as his reaction to Kagura earlier.

About Shishinki-Magatsuhi-Moryomaru business, because I see quite many people can understand the situations the way I see them (especially whether Magatsuhi and Shishinki are really as half-dangerous as Moryomaru battle), so I won't waste my time much here. But I should emphasize that consciously realizing the danger is one thing, keeping male instinctive confidence is another matter.

  • Then the way he flees later on is proof that he wasn't "confident" about it-a "confident" person does not flee like that. No, he knew the risks and wasn't "confident"-but for a second, he lost composure because of his emotional reaction to Kagura.

I think he knows the risks - and it's true that this is something, but he has faith that things will work his way whhen he strikes Moryomaru with Tokijin. He has a chance to succeed - he has faith that this chance will become reality. You can say that this is my speculation. Yes, it, it is my speculation, but I make it after observing some males' behavior (and Sesshomaru's behaviors in other cases). Only when Tokijin breaks, reason wins. I (deamonpen) writes a post on the confidence matter here http://freelance-manga.com/forum/index.php?topic=2072.0

  • If he had "faith" the whole time, why'd he flee? He had "faith" even though he could smell what was going on, and everyone was shouting at him the sword was gonna break? And even if what you were saying was true, losing sight of reason is something that's an EMOTIONAL response.

The two times I'm confirmed that he knows fear (in the emotional way) , is when he goes to check if Inuyasha is OK after he hears Bokusen-Oh's words, and when Rin's dead for the second time.

  • When did I ever imply that he never knew fear at all?

And when Kagura's dead it does not seem like that to me. And the part "in vain" seems to trouble him more than "she's dead! I can't save her!".

  • Really? Then why'd he react like that with Moryoumaru's words? And not wanting someone to die in vain IS an emotional response along the lines of "she's dead I can't save her"-if you weren't distraught by someone's death and your inability to save them, you wouldn't care enough to make sure they didn't die in vain.

"So now, all Eastern people must think/act the same way?...."

  • I already said my field of study focused on Eastern classics. I did hope you would undertand it as job/profession-related complex, it seemed I failed:)
    • You claimed that I was "sad" because I didn't agree with you and went on to preach Eastern ideals while contradicting them at the same time. Seems like you're implying I should act/think a certain way just because I'm Eastern to me.

When I see a person write "fleeting compassion" (when talking about a Japanese story), what I have in my mind is he/she is n't familiar with the concept and the culture, I can't imagine that she/he is familiar, just she/he thinks it's fleeting (in comparison with love).

  • When did I imply that ALL compassion was fleeting? The kind he has for her isn't the fleeting KIND. And you're sitting here, saying I should or shouldn't write certain things because I'm Eastern-once again, seems to me like you're implying all Eastern people should act alike.

Besides, I don't follow traditions much (despite my profession),

  • Then you should've be preaching them to others.

but because I see the whole "compassion is always great, with or without personal attachments" thing that I myself find in Eastern classics, one of the most beautiful things ever, so I feel sad. It's like I know a wonderful man, then com to admire him as a god, and then meet someone who also knows him but doesn't appreciate him that much... Just like that:) For other problems, read above.

  • When did I ever imply that compassion without personal attachment wasn't great? I only said that it wasn't the case HERE. Just because I said that a certain cup of ice cream wasn't chocolate flavored doesn't mean I don't like chocolate ice cream, does it?

"YOU YOURSELF agreed that in order to love someone, you need something IN ADDITION to compassion"

  • I don't know why you posted this. I believe what I was trying to say was a window wouldn't make a house, you have to add things to make it become a house
    • Meaning you need things IN ADDITION to it. Meaning if the window is compassion, you need other things IN ADDITION to it for it to become a house, or love.

(But some houses don't have any window, and window can be found in things that aren't houses.Compassion is a good beginning if you are going to build love. But love can exist without compassion, and compassion can exist without love (for the one you have compassion for)

  • And you've made it clear you think that, but when did I ever deny your beliefs? No, I only pointed out what you said above.

"And when does he note any similarity between her and himself? Sure, readers may see it, but what makes you think the character does? "

  • This's my reasoning: Tenseiga wants compassion, so if it reacts like that, there must be compassion, love or no love, respect or no respect.
    • But he's had compassion before, and it didn't react like that. Meaning there must be something different, or in addition.

And that compassion on itself must be a big, a remarkable part of what he has for her, to the point that without love, respect or any other things, it will still influences his actions in a strong way.

  • But if his "similarity" to her is gonna influence him, he has to note it somehow, and he doesn't.

Because "how you act"is an important part of compassion as well: love yourself, see the similarities, act for other people based on that love and those similarities.

  • Once again, when does he note similarities?

Imagine if the process was: he loved himself, he saw the similarities, he acted for her mostly because of his... personal romantic feelings for her - would it look right? And Tenseiga would still consider it an act of compassion?

  • Yes, because you DO need to have compassion for someone to love them in any way, including romantic, and no, you DON'T need to know them for a long time to have compassion for them.

If you have a fish of the sea, you provides it with real saltwater, you don't drop a grain of salt in to a big bowl of normal water and hope that the fish will accept it, right? And because there is compassion, so obviously there are similarities (which he must see for the compassion to be formed.

  • No, you don't HAVE to see similarities between yourself and someone else (though you can, it's not required) to have compassion for them. Plenty of people feel compassion for others strictly BECAUSE they don't see similarities, because they couldn't IMAGINE ever being in that person's position.

As he get furious right at the point Moryomaru says that she dies for some fleeting thing called freedom - so is it against reason to conclude that the similarity is the devotion to freedom?

  • Read above. Also, you still haven't answered my inital question-we the readers see similarity, but when does Sesshomaru himself ever indicate that HE sees them or note them in any way?

"But that was clearly a joke (RT herself jokes about how seriously Jaken took it in the profiles book...."

  • I read profile books too. That scene was not as emotional as Kagura's scene, but I do not think of it as a joke.
    • Then why is RT joking about it and making fun of Jaken with the comic expressions and all? And even go as far as to note that he took it too seriously in the profiles book?

Also, that scene, however funny you may find it, is included in a page (in the profile book) showing how Sesshomaru changes, right? That's serious enough to me.

  • So there are no jokes in the series? If it's included in the profiles book, it's not a joke? So the sit beads aren't a joke then because they were featured in the book, showing Inuyasha and Kagome's relationship? Miroku's groping wasn't comical because it was in the book when it was talking about Miroku's development?

  • "Wait, what? So you're saying that... "

Yeah, I have to agree with you on that some kind of relationship is being formed.

  • Then why'd you say "no relationship"?

Yet I didn't say that he treated HER well for no reason. One of the reasons I do think of, is Kagome is the first Inu-gang's member who shows respect to him.

  • And when did I imply that you said he treated her well for no reason? I didn't agree with you when you said that he doesn't have a relationship with her.

Yet I can't think of another one, who is not a member of his group, yet meets him many times, and is constantly in trouble

  • (cough) The entire Inu-gang, most notably his brother. They're not members of his group, they always run into each other, and are always in trouble somehow (and at times he helps them).

and has things he can deeply relate to.

  • When does Sesshomaru ever sit there and think about how he can relate to Kagura? See above.

such a person and he treated that one indifferently, we could compare her/his situation with Kagura's. For Kikyo and other incarnations, see above.

  • I've already addressed that as well. See above for my answers.

Yet, I don't think towards the in-laws, the love is as natural as towards people who share one's blood.

  • Actually, coming from one who was raised in various different foster homes, I have to disagree with you. Blood means nothing when it comes to love. There are plenty of blood relatives that don't love each other, and are very abusive of one another. There are plenty of platonic relationships between people that aren't related that are stronger than those between people that are.

It's more like "they're becoming allies/family members because he helps her and she repects him" than the other way:)

  • Which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. THAT'S HE'S STARTING TO SEE THEM AS FAMILY.

And compassion? Do they share some particular similarities?

  • Once again, you don't have to have anything in common with someone to have compassion for them.

I think this proves that deeply he has protective instinct towards others than anything, however he tries to resist it. Maybe that's because he is a dog demon, after all. After one (human, dog, cat....) meets a dog many times, and he has gotten used to the creature's scent and presence, the dog's reaction is likely more positive (in comparision with the beginning, and towards strangers), right?

  • If you have protective instinct towards someone, it means you're starting to have some sort of love for them, no matter what you are.

"Are you serious? If that was the case, why didn't Tenseiga react that way to any of those times he'd saved Inuyasha and Kagome? Because it wasn't enough. His reaction to Kagura was somehow DIFFERENT. "

  • It seems you don't understand what I mean. I don't say his compassion for Kagura isn't different. I say it is NOT different BECAUSE he helps Kagura more times than he helps Kagome/Inuyasha. Why doesn't Tenseiga react that way to the first time he saves Kagura, or the time he lies for her? Because those times it's not something that's more special/strong than what we see when he saves others. Even when she's dead, his compassion is not that strong. Only when Moryomaru offends her, when his heart is fully awakened, Tenseiga reacts - Thus it is the only case that's really remarkable.
    • Meaning, something was DIFFERENT now. Something CHANGED. That one instance was DIFFERENT from how he usually acted with anyone else, or any of the previous instances with Kagura. Your feelings for someone can change, and I don't think he saw her in that way when he first met her.

"Meaning, because you loved him, you were able to have COMPASSION for him when you normally wouldn't. Compassion is INCLUDED in love. Like what Sesshomaru has for Kagura, for Rin. "

  • You don't have to repeat to me what you think:)
    • If you can go on and on even though I don't feel in necessary, I can repeat myself.

See: If I had had compassion for him. I must have seen the similarity between me and him there

  • You don't have to see similarity between you and someone else to have compassion for them.

(and there was no similarity, because I didn't suffer cancer, I didn't understand what he had to go through, the only thing I knew that I wanted to save him

  • Because you could feel compassion for him (which you DON'T need to see similarity between yourself and someone else for) because you loved him.

- that was purely instinct. And just at that point when I saw cancer destroyed him, my impression of the desease is formed). And if it was like what you said, it was "compassion FOLLOWS love", not "compassion is INCLUDED in love".

  • Except that was NOT what I was saying. Compassion is included in love-you can't love someone you don't have compassion for.

I saw no similarity, as I never see any similarity between me and the others who suffer cancer.

  • But you still had compassion, because you DON'T need to have anything in common with someone in order to have compassion for them.

My opinion is still this: if it's al;ready love, then no compassion is needed,

  • Except if you love them, you already have compassion for them.

because compassion is just not "caring", first of all it's about understanding.

  • No, you don't have to understand them either in order to have compassion for them. You just have to somehow care.

(you can care because a whole lot of reasons). If someone beats my friend, whom I love, the first thing in my mind is not what has happened, what he/she has done to be treated so, or whether he/she deserves it or not, I just want to stop that guy, because they are my friends:)

About 伯牙 and 钟子期, they clearly devoted to each other to a hard-to-imagine (to me) extent (yet the most surprising part is actually not about devotion, it's about channelling each other mentally). If you still don't think that is a platonic relationship, you can keep your opinion.

  • Devotion doesn't automatically equal love or friendship. Obsession can create devotion. So can infatuation and lust. Fans become extremely devoted to and "channel" celebrities they've never even met. That doesn't mean you have a friendship with them, now does it?

I'm already happy with the amount of people who call this an uber-wonderful friendship:) And about my platonic friends (certainly I've live with them for quite some time now:) ), I won't explain much too. Believe or not is your right. I'm just too proud to stop telling people that they are so special to me and has changed my life in a very short time:).

  • I'm not here to judge you, but you do need to be more careful. I used to be the same way, as people tend to be when they are young, but friendships are things that last a long time and occur between people that know each other and have been through thick and thin together. You need a fair amount of time to establish one.

The Miroku thing and all the other things, I feel there is no more to explain, especially about the Miroku thing I think I can't explain it any clearer - it kinda self-explains. I still see it as the most important proof that Takahashi doesn't think that love includes compassion.

  • How so? Where does it imply in any way shape or form that Takahashi doesn't think love includes compassion for? Sango and Miroku always have compassion for each other, and the people that love each other in the series, whether romantically or platonically, have compassion for each other.

Only this "When did I say that compassion couldn't be lastic without romantic love? I made it clear it could be lasting with PLATONIC love as well, just that it does require SOME kind of love." Yes, then I change my arguments to "any kind of love"

  • And once again, I've already made my views clear-when you show repeated compassion to someone, you are showing them some kind of love.

I repeat for one last time, it isn't that i don't think his compassion towards Kagura is not special at all. Just I think the things that make it special are the (not romantic) REASONS and CIRCUMSTANCES, and not because he has romantic feelings for her:).

  • And once again, there's no evidence whatsoever that it's circumstances and reasons (read above) and there's good evidence that it's romantic (read above).

And, just some food for thought, why do you think Buddhism chooses cibei, and Confucianism chooses ren, and not love as their "special thing" (I can't think of a word that describes it:) )?

  • Buddhism and confucianism are not the rules of life, and not everyone (Including Eastern people, especially during modern times) swear by them.

One of the reasons I can think of: Because, after all, it's hard to love the whole world:) But compassion can be strong even when one can't love the strangers. One can't love a stranger like he loves his lover, like he loves his parents. But he can still be compassionate to them, devote to them, because the minimum requirements of compassion are just love for himself and the ability to think:) Compassion is not very meaningful if it's reserved for a minority:)

  • Except the compassion that Sesshomaru shows for Kagura isn't the kind that's "reserved for a minority", and it isn't small or little-he had a HUGE emotional reaction to her, which like you said, isn't exactly for strangers.

And Tenseiga chooses Sesshomaru as its true master - I believe that it sees the great potential in him. Why not Kagome or Inuyasha or someone? Because they have too much compassion like some says? Can compassion be too much (or should I say "can "cibei" be too much"? We should ask the Buddhists then:) ?

  • When did I ever imply that "compassion can be too much"? I never did. I only said that Sesshomaru had more than compassion for Kagura. Just because Tenseiga recognized his potential doesn't mean that there wasn't anything other than compassion there in that relationship.

I know "love makes a cold man kinder" is a dream of many girls. And it's a beautiful dream:) Girls want to change males and try to believe that they can :).

  • And why are you even bringing this up? It's a popular thing in fanfics and some female fans, but I never saw the appeal of the theme.

But it's like they need that belief to have confidence in themself. So humble the girls's thirst for power! I don't say that they can't. I believe in the powers of love too:) Yet I do know people who love, and can still be cruel. That's life. Sometimes we don't get what we want, even with love (and even with compassion, too:) )I see many Kagura/Sessh fans and Rin/Sessh fans belong to this group (I don't say you do so too:) ). Nothing really wrong with it. But it's like they need painkillers or opium to forget the pains (which males and we females ourselves cause us:) ) the females must endure, to have some belief in themself. I think it will be better if women try to build real confidence in themselves and treat themselves better first, then it will be less difficult to devote to others:) (And why the pure, kind character who devote to others wholeheartedly in many mangas must always be a female - I think it's another insecurity problem. But in Inuyasha she did bravely added a Kikyo to a Kagome:) - so there's balance). I think when Takahashi chose to put emphasis on compassion (and still she did value love), she again found the right balance:) Compassian is a reliable source of happiness, because one act for oneself, so she/he will be happy whether people who receive that compassion give him/her compasion/love/sympathy or not:). It doesn't depend on an outside source. While one who loves another one will be desperate to be loved back:) (but I can't say we shouldn't love other people, can I?:) We can't. And love is just too beautiful to resist, to interesting to miss). Nowadays I rarely sees such a female author:). I hope you understand my very serious intentions (though a bit far-fetched, I know:) ) when I write this.

  • It's true, but once again, what does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Actually, if it wasn't for your ideas about the respect thing above, I wouldn't write all of this. But now I has stated my opinions on that matter, and Kagura-Sesshomaru matter for that matter:). I think I should stop here. Feel free to reply to this post. I won't reply if there are no ultra-special matters.

Let other people see what we discuss here and make a judgement for themselves.

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