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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.


Morgan Wick: I'm wondering if we want to make a crack about how if people are too good, they become Moral Guardians!

Roland: While on the one hand that might come off as kinda snarky, that really is the essential basis of this trope- the association of "good" with hypocritical, sanctimonious wannabe-saints. This makes almost no sense, of course, but people think of Moral Guardians and the Knight Templar as 'the forces of good,' as opposed to the actual heroes.

Earnest: Dn D geek here, so please bear with me. This trope is basically that good is always Lawful Good, while evil is Always Chaotic Evil. Would the subversion then be La Résistance, chaotic do gooders fighting The Empire, an entrenched and orderly evil empire?

Sunder the Gold: This trope isn't about Chaos always being Evil. It's about stories where Chaos is just as good as Order, and where Good is just as Evil as Evil, and where Evil is just as Good as Good.

Also, La Résistance versus the The Empire isn't about Chaos versus Order. The Rebels in Star Wars wanted to restore the Republic, which was itself a form of Order. The struggle was about proper rule versus tyranny. Good, altruistic law as opposed to bad, selfish law. Law is only is only as good as the men that make it. In a similar way, a lack of law is only as good as those who live that way. Bad people make bad laws, and bad anarchists behave badly.

Peteman: Technically, in the Pirates of the Carribean, weren't some of the people getting executed for either harboring pirates, or maybe even just associating with pirates?

Geese: Possibly not. You know that song? It's pretty explicitly "this here be things only pirates know, much less sing at the gallows" and they all knew it like it was rehearsed. It isn't exactly iron-clad evidence, but it's pretty damning and the Colonies weren't much for due process back then, either.

Roland: While that may be the case to some extent, it should also be noted that many sailors had at least some familiarity with piracy and law-breaking at the time. The seas were a pretty lawless place, and the government could be extremely inconvenient or favorable towards oppressive groups such as the EITC is presented in the movie. The right of habeas corpus was also a traditional English right that dates back as far as 1305, though it was at times suspended.

Overall, the EITC and the like are not presented as in any way good.

Geese: A very good point on both counts, but I don't recall suspension of right of habeas corpus letting you randomly hang people. It's more about indefinite imprisonment, and Beckett's priorities didn't seem to be "filling the jails."

Archbishop 10-K: Being new to tropedom and not sure where else to put this, but does anyone else think linking "Catholicism as a big killjoy" to Truth in Television all in the eye of the beholder? Oscar Wilde and certain members of the Decadent movement flirted with or converted to Catholicism, with its gold-laced vestments, dramatic ritual and emotion-filled devotions as an alternative to the comparatively stuffy Anglicanism of the Victorian period. Perhaps the most famous subversion, though, is the depiction of Catholic heaven and Protestant heaven in a notable episode of The Simpsons, with one being a giant Irish step dancing party and the other an upper middle class country club....

Noaqiyeum: ...Yeah, subjective troping alert. I'll remove the link. That example could probably use a little truncating, too, from someone who's seen the film.

Jester: Removed this:

  • The second and third Pirates Of The Caribbean films went this route, the better to make us root for the pirates. Yes, they were constantly backstabbing each other for their own agendas, but their chaos is presented as far preferable to the oppressive order of the East India Trading Company.
    • The first movie brings this up as well, with Jack Sparrow explaining that owning a ship and being able to sail is, in his mind, the definition of freedom.

...because the East India Trading Company are not Orderly Good Guys, they are Eviler Than Thou Bad Guys, who the Pirates oppose out of self-interest and because Even They Have Standards.


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