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son Since: Apr, 2010
10/04/2012 10:25:20 •••

Bottom line: Who won? (spoiler warning)

When we first saw the teasers for Avengers vs. X-men, it was stated by the Marvel staff that unlike the previous giant story arcs (like the Civil War), there would actually be a winning side. With the final issue of the main story released, did Marvel actually deliver on their promise?

Primary objectives

Avengers: The Phoenix is coming, we must protect the Earth at all costs.

  • This has been the primary mission of the Avengers since the beginning and they never once strayed from this goal. Of course, at the end of the series the Earth has been saved and most of the damage has been amended. Despite what you think about there efforts, did the Avengers ultimately win?

X-men: The phoenix is coming, in order to restore the Mutant race (and prevent Cable's bad future) it must be harnessed by Hope.

  • The Avengers got the Earth saved as they wanted, but it couldn't have been accomplished without Hope harnessing the Phoenix force (the X-men's orginal plan). Not only was this accomplished but Hope manages to restore the mutant race at the same time. Did the X-men technically win?

Brief Analysis

From a superficial perspective it seems like we're supposed to side with the Avengers here. Even from the beginning, the Avengers are like rational minded straight-men while the X-men come off as zealous followers of a cult. The latter discussing their plan from a more lofty or hopeful standpoint; despite the fact that there were some legitimate reasons for using the Phoenix force. Many of post-schism X-men on Wolverine's side sided with scott out of loyalty to him, rather than any practical reasons (except Rachel, who harnessed the Phoenix Force in the past). Eventually, because of iron man's actions, 5 Phoenix hosts were created. Here their actions can be interpreted as either making the world a better place, or a dictatorship (I'll weigh in on my opinion in the comments). But at that point they did nothing evil until they were provoked by the avengers. Each host was eventually defeated after they performed some heinous act. Eventually Cyclops was all alone, and while he was the one who seemed to have the most control he still eventually followed suit to the other hosts, and was defeated.

It seems that marvel copped-out with an everybody wins ending. It was Scarlet Witch and Hope (mostly) whose actions stopped Cyclops.

son Since: Apr, 2010
10/03/2012 00:00:00

Cut it REALLY close, so many other things I wanted to say. :(

1046190 Since: Sep, 2012
10/04/2012 00:00:00

The Avengers weren't more rational. Cable told them that Hope needed the Phoenix to prevent his bad future. The Avengers came with an army to invade a sovereing nation and dish out ultimatums... threats. Afterwards the Avengers screw up and corrupt the X-Men because they don't understand the Phoenix. In the end the X-Men take all of the blame, the Avengers get to be smug and hypocritical, and the world gets a bittersweet ending.

1046190 Since: Sep, 2012
10/04/2012 00:00:00

The Avengers weren't more rational. Cable told them that Hope needed the Phoenix to prevent his bad future. The Avengers came with an army to invade a sovereing nation and dish out ultimatums... threats. Afterwards the Avengers screw up and corrupt the X-Men because they don't understand the Phoenix. In the end the X-Men take all of the blame, the Avengers get to be smug and hypocritical, and the world gets a bittersweet ending.

son Since: Apr, 2010
10/04/2012 00:00:00

I'm a Cyclops supporter through and through. But the Avengers were "presented" as the more rational side.

TobiasDrake (Edited uphill both ways)
10/04/2012 00:00:00

I would say the Avengers did actually pretty firmly win. Their plan from the beginning was to keep the Phoenix from taking Hope as its host while they analyze the situation, find a solution that would save the world from the Phoenix, and exact that solution. Cyclops's plan was to let the Phoenix take Hope, in the assumption that just out-and-out letting the Phoenix win would result in it fixing the world.

While it may seem that Scott was vindicated in the end, he was not. The Phoenix Five were corrupt from the very moment of their inception, they just did not immediately seem so. Scott immediately abandons "restore the mutant race" as a goal from the moment he gains the Phoenix Force, and never speaks a word to that goal. Under the influence of the Phoenix, he sets to work trying to remake the world in typical Phoenix style, but in a less destructive manner. He lost all sight of his goal the moment the Phoenix inhabited him, making it clear that the Phoenix cared nothing for restoring the mutant race.

The Avengers abducted Hope from the Phoenix Five. They trained her to harness and control the Phoenix, rather than leaving it to blind hope that she'd just be able to do it herself. Then, they put into motion a plan by Tony Stark that resulted in the destruction of the Phoenix AND the repowering of the mutant race, accomplishing both their goal AND Scott's in one fell swoop. This sequence of events is exactly what they were trying to do to begin with, and could have accomplished much earlier if Scott hadn't been so hellbent on throwing Hope to the Phoenix as soon as possible.

I don't think Marvel copped out. I would say that the Avengers were the pretty clear winner here.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
son Since: Apr, 2010
10/04/2012 00:00:00

I'd say the Avengers only win if you look at the event superficially. Scott was not going in half cocked, he was training Hope that whole time she was still being trained at the moment when Captain America arrived (or rather invaded).

Because of the "war" we never get to see what all Cyclops had planned, but we shouldn't assume he didn't have something up his sleeve (Rachel Summers was like a double agent during this event, and she stated that she was the Phoenix host in the past). The X-men went off track only after the Avengers "intervened" with Ironman's Phoenix buster.

Regardless, Scott (not sure about the others) AFTER hosting the phoenix force was still concerned about keeping Hope on Utopia to prepare her (otherwise let her stay with the Avengers or on the moon). The X-men were forced to abandon what preperation they had when the Avengers forced their hand.

Not to mention the Avengers original plan was to destroy the Phoenix. Ironically, even after the X-men's plan had retroactive affirmation from the Iron Fist/Kun Lun legend, they still weren't trying to use Hope until after Cyclops went Dark phoenix and they examined every possible outcome (Ironman, Thor, and the spot light thief), through Scarlet Witch.

You could make a case for everybody loses. We don't know the circumstance of Cable's bad future. Did Hope and Scarlet Witch make a mistake by getting rid of the Phoenix?

TobiasDrake (Edited uphill both ways)
10/04/2012 00:00:00

You can definitely make a case for everybody loses, but Stark's version of the plan to use Hope to control the Phoenix was formed 72 hours prior to the battle that resulted in Cyclops going Dark Phoenix, in the aftermath of Hope driving Phoenix!Scott away from K'un Lun. Additionally, Hope didn't fix mutants/destroy the Phoenix alone; the Scarlet Witch was there with her, helping her control the Phoenix. Without Wanda, Hope was in White Phoenix mode, ready to do the same thing Scott had nearly done as Dark Phoenix, until Wanda pulled her back.

We also know that Scott was keeping Hope completely ignorant of the Phoenix; she was not being trained to control it, she didn't even know what it was until she went behind his back to get an infodump from Unit. Had she obtained the Phoenix when Scott wanted her to, she would have done so completely unprepared.

While we never got to see what Scott had planned, he did explain his plan to us a few times; he wanted to let the Phoenix take Hope, and simply had faith that the Phoenix would restore the mutant race to prosperity and leave the rest of the world untouched. Its behavior both with the Phoenix Five and with Hope herself before Wanda intervened suggests he was wrong.

The Avengers' original plan was to keep Hope away from the Phoenix while they tried to find a way to either destroy it or drive it away from Earth. Ultimately, that is exactly what happened, just in a more roundabout way because of the war and the Phoenix Five.

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.
son Since: Apr, 2010
10/04/2012 00:00:00

I was wrong about the timeline when the "use Hope" plan was formed, I think it was in a tie-in comic.

Regardless, the Avengers still didn't think to actually use Hope until later (even after being aware of the Iron Fist legend). Scott did keep information from Hope, and his plan was basically a hail Mary. But events within the comic suggests that he had more in store for her prior to using the Phoenix force.

Like I said, Hope was still being trained when Captain America arrived on Utopia. If the invasion never happened, the X-men would have had 5 (six if you include the 0 issue) issues to prepare Hope for the Phoenix. Probably the same amount of time it took the Avengers to regress to the X-men's plan.

The Avengers at the end had even used the same type of language that the X-men used in the beginning. Get Hope out their and "Hope" for the best. While it was a modified (in depth) version of the X-men's plan, it was still the X-men's plan. In fact when Hope absorbed the Phoenix, Scarlet Witch and the Avengers were still trying to stop her "Don't look at it!" "No Hope!" "We traded one Dark Phoenix for another", (she was a white Phoenix BTW).


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