Disagree on the unlikable characters. And the whiny descriptions you give some of them aren't an accurate read. Please give actual reasons and not insults.

Yea, the whole 400 words or less really bugs me out; I would of gone much farther into the characters on the original post, but here are what I think of the main six:

Lightning - She was designed to be a female version of Squall according to word of god. I liked FF 8 a lot, mostly because you had a depressed character like Squall forced to work with colorful and energetic fools like Selphie and Zell. Take those characters away, and your stuck with a boring and emotional loser. Lightning is basically Squall, except with no Selphie or Zell to prevent her infinite period. As a main character, we hardly get to know her. The whole point of her is to save her fanservice sister, Serah. We get bits and pieces of her past, but that's not enough to fully understand her. I would of liked it if we got to see how she dealt with her officers and more of why is an ex-soldier.

Snow - Much like Lightning, he has no purpose besides Serah. He's also just very unlikable in general. I can't really put how I feel about him into words because he's not an asshole, but something about him just screams asshole.

Sahz - Sahz is my favorite character, and it's not hard to see why. He's the token black guy with a tiny chocobo who lives in his fro. That alone is enough to surpass even Auron. Besides that, his emotions actually feel realistic and his story is much more emotional then the rest, even though its hardly shown, but when it is, its great.

Hope - My feelings towards Hope are mixed. Besides having the coolest scene and a much more thoughtful story arc then the rest of the cast, he is shown as an annoying, whinny little kid. I loved the scene where he was with Snow, alone, with a knife, and he had a Norman Bates-vibe about him. Instead of having him cry all the time, I would of had him remain silent and in a sort of trance of disbelief his mother died and that he is what he fears.

Vanille - I feel pretty good about what I wrote on the original post.

Fang - We hardly get to interact with her. From what I can tell, the developers wanted to make an action girl version of Lulu. I know she is meaningful to the story, and she wasn't just thrown in, but it definitely feels that way sometimes.

Every source I have says that Lightning was supposed to be a female Cloud, not Squall. The characters were perfectly fine by me, but I'd be the first to admit to being extremely generous to characters most people consider scrappies.

20 hour tutorial? LOL.

And it was not a twenty hour tutorial. 2 hours tops.

I feel you're pretty much right about Vanille and Fang. I thought Lightning had lots of interesting arcs though, her relationship with Snow and Hope was pretty cool and just generally seeing her mellow and learn to trust. Snow didn't do much, I wouldn't say he was bad, but apart from Fang he was the least arcy of them all. Sazh all round rocked and had a fantastic storyline to go with it, the thin with his son was so harsh and how he reacted was powerful. He managed to make Vanille good for the time she was with him, although it wasn't a lasting change.

I don't find the story itself confusing. It was the villains who confused me, I could never tell them apart or who they were or what they did and so the it always rocked the flow of the story whenever one showed up (except for the main villain obviously) apart from that it was a really interesting concept. I really don't know what I would do if someone l'cied me

er...I'm pretty sure Lightning was suppose to be a female Cloud, who was anything but emo most of his game despite later showings, and even then I don't even remember Lightining being sad, or depressed. Squall, Zell and Sephie are from FF 8 not FF 7. And she told Sahz that she quit because Serah was already purged and military (wo)men were exempt from it. Fang is the Six Ranger, hence why she's late to the party, but once she becomes part of the party, she and Vanille are the one who have the most scenes in Pulse.

Actually, FF has been famous for years because of it's Unpleasable Fanbase aka every game after 6 is great to one half and horrible to the other (yes even 7) and there are FF that people barely know exist, and given that they're almost all different stories, the Rachet example is not the best comparison. ps. that sounded more like a pre-emtive strike saying that anyone who disagrees with you must be a rabid fanboy given that this is mostly a negative review. And finally, ok...yeah...you gotta admit the whole thing about Snow doesn't make any sense at all.

I've got to second Marcell on the FF fanbase thing. I think it would be harder to find a series with a more split fanbase who all like parts of it

Sonic The Hedgehog is the Trope Codifier for Unpleasable Fanbase. No one beats them.

I might be out of touch with the crowd, but aren't there sonic games which everyone thinks sucks*

like everyone since 3D was invented

? With FF half will hate it and the other half will say it's the best game ever in the series. For every game released. :D

Heck there's a large number of people who feel that FFX-2 was one of the best games in the series :O

All and all this review comes off whiny and incomplete. And the pre-emptive and close minded strike against Final Fantasy Fanbase makes taking you serious not happening.

To be fair he did stress how much he liked the combat and in quite a bit of depth, which was pretty interesting

Disc 1 and 2 were the tutorial if you consider that the true depth of the battle system is finally shown on disc 3.

I guess I messed up my information. I felt she was a lot more like Squall then Cloud.

A lot of people say that the story is confusing, but I guess I mean the "mythology". The main story, which focuses on the six main characters is straightforward BUT the terms and the mythology is very confusing and I'm still pretty lost about it. With FF 10, I can easily define terms like the "calm" and the pyreflies without googling. If I asked a fan to define what a L'Cie or who the PSICOM are, I'm sure they would have to google it.

I like to make snarky openers, targeting the directed fans because I like to make people angry. They usually read the whole review, trying to take out bits and pieces of it in order to prove me wrong (which they can't, since its an opinion).

Lightning is Squall if Squall wasn't cool

Some people would argue that Squall was cool, y'know.

Sonic The Hedgehog is the Trope Codifier for Unpleasable Fanbase. No one beats them.

FWIW, Sonic's fanbase is at least a little bit justified due to that franchise's decay. Actually, so is Final Fantasy's.

Nothing justifies attacking other people who still like the games just because you don't. That is when an Unpleasable Fanbase is born.

But don't we agree that most of the Final Fantasy fanboys are rabid and unpleasant?

Most fanboys in general are like that, you said that most final fantasy fans are fanboys, different thing. Also, where did you get that just because it's an opinion you can't be wrong? not to mention that the squall, zell ans sephie are from 8 not 7 is a fact. And oh please tell us the right way to critique your review, if there is a way.

I agree that it was a 20 hour tutorial in that it was twenty hours before they let you start mixing and matching your party, which was a huge part of the fun. I'm surprised you'd struggle to define L'Cie, although not PSICOM. The fantastical elements seemed fairly well established to me (except for what happened at the end of the final battle) but all the human stuff was a mess and I never really sorted out the differences between, say, The Cavalry and PSICOM. I'd struggle to say what Cid did.

But dude, no, no, no I am not going to agree with that, I don't agree with that. How on earth can I say that that many people are rabid and unpleasant? The best I can say is that maybe I'm rabid and unpleasant but to extend that to so many other people?

Once again, twenty hour tutorial is an exaggeration.

Dude :D you're meant to add something there. I said okay 20 hour tutorial sounds right to me, it's only 20 hours in that they start letting you do some very core things to the battle system, like letting you choose your party members

and you're meant to says 'you're wrong, choosing party members isn't a fundamental part of the battle system' and then we can talk about that and one of us decides the other is right or we reach a compromise.

You're not meant to just say 'No' =D

Once again, twenty hour tutorial is an exaggeration.

That's why I was laughing at it, not agreeing with it.

I agree with your opinion of Hope, but you must consider his character development: while he goes Shinji-levels of wangst, he actually grows out of it, to the point he becomes a second Only Sane Man later in the game.

YMMV heavily on the characters being unlikable:

Lightning: At first, she's a hard case, simply fighting everything in her way and virtually always angry. This is her form of denial... but she gets over it and loosens up, while still retaining her snarker side and fighting prowess. Having to watch over Hope helped a lot too, as well as helped show her that she was wrong about what she did.

Snow: Snow definitely talks a good talk, but he struggles to prove it. Simply put, he's got the right idea, but is a bit out-of-touch with reality. Despite that, he's WAY beyond determined to save Serah, damn the conseqences and damn himself (same with Hope when the time comes). Again, right idea, but flawed way of doing it (and he specifically mentions that he's always walking forward to run from his own guilt).

Definitely easy to judge on the surface, but he proves himself with actions over the course of the game.

Sazh: Nothing really needed, as he's likeable.

Hope: Yes, he's whiny and lashes out, but cut the kid a break... he's 14 (and thus at an emotional/rebellious age) , lost his mother right in front of him, plunged into a world that hates his guts and forced to travel with other I'Cie, whom he was supposed to hate... wouldn't YOU being doing the same? He grows out of it, and becomes one of the better characters, by far.

Vanille: She's more complex than people think. Her actress is Austrilian, but frequently accused of having a fake accent... despite the fact it is a real accent (we're used to the overblown ones, so Reality Is Unrealistic). But anyway, at first, she's overly chirpy and cheerful... her way of running from her own guilt and dark secrets. Once things are exposed, and cooled down, that aspect fades quite a lot, though it's still present. And yes, she's a little cucko, but it was just played up as a shield, at first.

Fang: Definitely has a great sense of humor, and pretty much tells people the truth straight-up (and this extends to her actions). Even suffering from amnesia and overly-determined to protect Vanille can't stop people from liking her.

So yeah, YMMV about the characters. And also, the tutorial only lasts for 3 hours... after that, only a very small handful of things get a 'tutorial' thing explaining them. That does not mean the tutorial lasted all the way up till then. And I know all this because I've played the game, and heavily enjoyed it ;)

I'm also one of the few who actually LIKES Vanille's English voice, but that's just me.