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Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella was a man.
Bella is just the typical reluctant hero she enters a new world with a lot of insecurities and is mesmerized by the love interest that happens to be the vampire. All the questions that said that Bella didn't had any interest could be applied to MANY male heroes that don't particularly care about their grades or/and have any idea of what to do with life. But it looks like all women should want to be C.E.O or that all female character should make a feminist statement. I'm a woman and a feminist with a terrific caring husband and I do not like that feminism is taking the same route as chauvinism did where they have rules about what women should do and women should obey. I think there are as many women that want to run their own company as there are that just want to fall in love and have a family or that want both and all of them are right because is their life. I think that is one of the reasons Twilight has touched so many girls/women and SOME men is that Bella is just an average girl not a preteen superwoman and that is kind of refreshing on this time and day. Since have first experience on abusive men on my own family this is not it: doormats don't disobey EVER their mates out of fear while Bella keeps doing that till Edward learns to let her be wich is something an abuser doesn't do. They are always right and the woman is always wrong and if she doesn't agree then he will teach her whether by physical abuse or threats to her life. I'm not saying that Edward is perfect (he is also an 100 years old virgin idiot) but he lives on a world of predators that kill humans on seconds and that is unknown to Bella and since she is another idiot, she constantly place herself on situations that could have her killed. Now if in this world humans could find a way to kill vampires or protect themselves and Bella either never learns or Edward doesn't let her learn I would have a problem with this, but since this isn't the case what should Edward do? Let her get killed? Outside of making sure she doesn't die Sparklepire pretty much allows her to do whatever she pleases and he makes sure to let her choose if she would rather be with him or any other guy if that is what makes her happy and even tolerates the other guy hanging around. Abusive men would had her killed just thinking of this.
Your arguments aren't very convincing. You seem to have overlooked a few important things with this review:

1. Abuse is not always physical. Emotional abuse can arguably be just as destructive.

2. "I'm not saying that Edward is perfect (he is also an 100 years old virgin idiot)"... you know, celibacy is not a character flaw, and if that's the best you can come up with to explain why Edward isn't 'perfect', well...

3. From what I can see, instead of disliking Bella because she's unambitious, or not feminist, or not a C.E.O., or because she doesn't have superpowers, they dislike her because they think she's a weak and foolish person.

comment #1313 Whoeverski 16th Nov 09 (edited by: Whoeverski)
1. I also meant emotional abuse this thing only let me use 400 words and I tried to point out most of the arguments I heard from haters.

2. I have no problems with celibacy or virginity, (I practiced celibacy for a few years when I was single) but most of the persons that hate Edward used this "word" a lot I just wanted to make sure that I don't have a crush on Edward to see that the abuse accusations are kind of extreme, and I do think Edward does a lot of idiotic things BTW.

3. I totally agree but there are plenty of weak foolish men on young reader books as the protagonists/hero and people seem not to care that much or call it sexist so is kind of double standard and also implies that women/girls shouldn't read certain books, because their tiny, fragile impressionable minds can't tell the difference between a fantasy and its own rules and a real danger to them and after reading four books we are going to lost them! Isn't that sexist per se? I was pissed off enough when Harry Potter books were called satanists and that will make kids to go to witchcraft but this Twilight will turn girls into battered wives/girlfriends is kind of waaaay more insulting.
comment #1315 200.88.122.22 16th Nov 09
I'm sorry, but that review is just incredibly difficult to read without any commas or paragraph breaks.
comment #1316 Desertopa 16th Nov 09
Ok I will try to edit it ASAP...Its my first review in this format so is just a rookie mistake.
comment #1321 200.88.122.22 17th Nov 09
Well, Twilight has a lot of similarities to yaoi manga with its borderline abusive seme and doormat uke, it's true, but that doesn't prove Bella is a good character. Bad writing is still bad writing whether your romance is straight or gay. And yes, Edward is emotionally abusive. He treats Bella like a child and particularly has a stroke if he can't know exactly what she's doing at any given moment. He has no respect for her decisions either. She says she doesn't want to go to prom, or to college or have a graduation party and yet he blithely ignores her every time.

I don't care that Bella doesn't want to be a CEO or a career woman. What bothers me is that she quite literally has no life outside of Edward. She doesn't have any real hobbies or interests and most of her relationships with the other characters are extremely perfunctory. She's so Edward-obsessed I can't imagine her being a good mother, either.

Frankly, both Edward and Bella are Yanderes, but since their creator seems to think that mutual parasitism is romantic, this isn't portrayed as a bad thing.
comment #1323 nanshe 17th Nov 09
  • He treats Bella like a child and particularly has a stroke if he can't know exactly what she's doing at any given moment. He has no respect for her decisions either. She says she doesn't want to go to prom, or to college or have a graduation party and yet he blithely ignores her every time.

I had seen on reverse with the woman being the one treating the man as the child and not respecting his decisions whatsoever and like Edward getting him to do what she thinks is right in the end. I don't particularly like any of those, but the double standard is kind of bugging me.

  • I don't care that Bella doesn't want to be a CEO or a career woman. What bothers me is that she quite literally has no life outside of Edward. She doesn't have any real hobbies or interests and most of her relationships with the other characters are extremely perfunctory. She's so Edward-obsessed I can't imagine her being a good mother, either.

I agree with this, but the point I'm trying to make is that she is not first fictional character that does that. The adorable loser obsessed with the hot chick (and that gets her at the end) is another trope, that can work or not depending on the writer, but what bugs me is that there is a long line of males fitting that role on a lot of fiction and yet a woman is portrayed in it and is the end of the feminist movement, like the feminist movement a) has a set of rules of what a woman should or shouldn't be and b) like after decades of women growing in post-feminist world if only takes ONE popular fantasy to destroy it. WTF!

  • Frankly, both Edward and Bella are Yanderes, but since their creator seems to think that mutual parasitism is romantic, this isn't portrayed as a bad thing.*

Indeed, I always wondered what would had happened if TL saga would had been a manga and written by a japanese woman. Would it get the heat it gets? Or it will be considered a cultural thing and being ignored?
comment #1326 Yayoiyukino 18th Nov 09 (edited by: Yayoiyukino)
My case for Edward being abusive, and the "protection," thing being bullshit: While Bella is indeed Too Dumb To Live, if you look, Edward's "protection," seems awfully convenient for him. In Twilight, he follows her on her trip out of town. Then he breaks into her house to watch her sleep every night, leaving before she wakes up. Supposedly, this is to protect her. But from what? Asleep in her room, unrealistically clumsy Bella is probably safer then than she is at any time during the day... Except for the fact that, without her knowledge, a vampire who is constantly on the edge of brutally murdering her is spending the entire night with her, with no witnesses whatsoever. It seems to me that his presence would put her in far more danger, hey? So when you think about it, the "protection," thing is just a pathetic excuse to indulge his obsession with her through some pretty fucking major stalking. That alone would be enough to qualify him as abusive, but there's more.

That his presence endangers rather than protects her [which is also true of his family] would be true most of the time, were it not for the author's determination to turn Bella into a damsel in distress, to be heroically rescued by her boyfriend every five minutes. He does leave a couple of times so he won't gobble her up, but he always comes back, showing that in the end, his desire to have Bella outweighs his desire to keep her safe.

This doesn't mean he can't use the "protection," thing to his advantage again, however. This time, rather than use it as an excuse to stalk Bella and watch her sleep, he uses it to force her not to see her best friend. He disables her car so she can't drive to see him, and uses his constant presence to trap her - Bella mentions knowing that she can't go on foot to see Jacob, because Edward's with her all the time, and could catch her in an instant. When he's forced to leave for the weekend to hunt, he bribes his sister to kidnap Bella, and take his place.

Oh, but these things are done to protect her from the werewolves, so it's okay... The only problem with this logic is, while the wolves may not be 100% safe, they're close to it... A lot closer than Edward and his family. Basically, they just have to avoid transformation when standing right next to Bella - given they have several seconds of warning, this is easy. Meanwhile, they don't constantly lust for her blood, they won't try to kill the accident-prone moron over something as simple as a paper cut, and they've never killed a single person - how many times do you think any of the Cullens have "fallen off the wagon," as Edward put it in the first book? So, the werewolves aren't that dangerous, but Edward's being a major hypocrite about this whole "protection," thing, and goes disabling his girlfriend's car, holding her prisoner, and bribing her sister to do the same, all so Bella won't see her friend. Coincidentally, Bella's friend is a very attractive, tall, muscular boy who's in love with her.

Frankly, even without the apparent primary motive being jealousy, this is abuse. As mentioned, the werewolves aren't actually all that dangerous, and without any severe threat level, Edward's extreme methods of protecting Bella are going way, way, way too far. Imagine if you had a boyfriend who was doing the same stuff in order to prevent you from going skydiving. Would it be acceptable? How would you react to his behaviour?

Bella doesn't like it, but she excuses it as being done out of love, and doesn't do a damn thing to stop it - she doesn't even try to put her foot down in regards to Edward, or not let him in for the night. She considers the latter for a second, but can't bear the thought of spending an entire night away from Edward if she can help it.

Then there is also the way he took her things and hid them in New Moon. He says this was for her own good, so she wouldn't be reminded of him and wangst about it. However, it's her stuff, not his, and he had absolutely no right to take it, whether it was for Bella's own good or not. This is another example of Edward being controlling about what's good for Bella, rather than letting her make her own choices.
comment #1361 110.32.120.67 23rd Nov 09
  • That his presence endangers rather than protects her [which is also true of his family] would be true most of the time, were it not for the author's determination to turn Bella into a damsel in distress, to be heroically rescued by her boyfriend every five minutes. He does leave a couple of times so he won't gobble her up, but he always comes back, showing that in the end, his desire to have Bella outweighs his desire to keep her safe.

The thing that on the books the moment he realizes that he is more dangerous he leaves, but it turns out that leaving her was a mistake since she became borderline suicidal and Victoria was out to get her. On Eclipse is obvious that she would had died without the team work of the werewolves and the Cullens.

  • So, the werewolves aren't that dangerous, but Edward's being a major hypocrite about this whole "protection," thing, and goes disabling his girlfriend's car, holding her prisoner, and bribing her sister to do the same, all so Bella won't see her friend. Coincidentally, Bella's friend is a very attractive, tall, muscular boy who's in love with her.

Vampires don't trust werewolves more than they trust vampires, we as readers kind of know they are not as bad as they think but the Cullens have every reason to distrust them, so both got a point, and Edward actually realizes that he is wrong on later books and let Bella not only to be friends with them but help them protect her and doesn't get on the way if she decided to stay with Jacob instead of him. The abuser never changes his mind or allows the other party to have any input on their decisions, so Edward is a lot overprotective but he learns better.

  • Bella doesn't like it, but she excuses it as being done out of love, and doesn't do a damn thing to stop it - she doesn't even try to put her foot down in regards to Edward, or not let him in for the night. She considers the latter for a second, but can't bear the thought of spending an entire night away from Edward if she can help it.

I think the fact that she keeps, escaping to do what she thinks is feat even if that would make Edward mad shows to me that she does try to get her will and eventually win at the end.

  • Imagine if you had a boyfriend who was doing the same stuff in order to prevent you from going skydiving. Would it be acceptable? How would you react to his behaviour?

In this supernatural world it would only take mere seconds for any of this mythical creatures to kill her. Is the equivalent of going skydiving with a broken parachute and hope for a miracle to land safely. Now you think that a good boyfriend/husband should let his beloved one getting herself killed?

  • This is another example of Edward being controlling about what's good for Bella, rather than letting her make her own choices.

Which is the second book he admits his mistakes and never does it again. Bella might be quick to forgive but what is the point of holding a grudge if the other person apologizes and change his behaviour?

Now Bella also does whatever within her power to protect Edward even emotionally blackmailing him to get him to do her will (whether vampiring her, staying behind on the battle,o r having sex with her, not giving her gifts...). She also carried to term her pregnancy against his wishes and once she vampires herself protecting Edward is also her priority. I would think that this two deserve each other.

comment #1363 200.88.122.22 23rd Nov 09
It'd still be ridiculed and mocked either way - Hell, it'd probably get more hate if it was an animu/mango.
comment #1366 DEFCON 1 23rd Nov 09
I'm not one for arguing or typing up big paragraphs, so I'm just gonna say this.

Edward bribed alice to kidnap bella. Now, that's not a bad thing in itself... But the fact it, and their relationship in general is presented as normal, is bad. Even if the gender roles were reversed, it'd be bad.
comment #1369 hikaurhinoz 24th Nov 09
  • It'd still be ridiculed and mocked either way - Hell, it'd probably get more hate if it was an animu/mango.

I don't think so. The Tsunderes characters are wildly popular and they don't get this hatedom. I mean if you look at the Stalkingislove is full of this examples on animes both females and males and no one waste their time on trying to say how bad is it as much as on TL.

  • Edward bribed alice to kidnap bella. Now, that's not a bad thing in itself... But the fact it, and their relationship in general is presented as normal, is bad. Even if the gender roles were reversed, it'd be bad.

Is bad either way, but is more like a plot point than anything else, the thing is that this is a fantasy universe were none of their relationships are healthy in any way and I think that is not supposed to be or that people are looking at fantasy books to shape their relationships. And again if Bella were the overprotective vampire (which she actually becomes on BD), and Edward was the fragile human she needs to protect I think the books wouldn't be so hated neither her creator would be so bashed. Specially when the bashed is directed towards her personal life more than her work.
comment #1370 Yayoiyukino 24th Nov 09
If Bella was a man, no one would even know Twilight existed. So yes, the title of your review is absolutely correct.
comment #1480 12.90.255.26 10th Dec 09
Heh so true. But who knows a vampire girl in love/lusting after a human boy might be the next black in a couple of decades. I liked the movie Inoccent blood and it has a female vampire in it.
comment #1485 200.88.122.22 11th Dec 09
Honestly? If Twilight were about a man with a borderline abusive stalker girlfriend? I would be all over that because that's freaking hot.
comment #1489 EponymousKid 12th Dec 09
You need to read some mangas and animes...that happens a lot of them!
comment #1495 Yayoiyukino 13th Dec 09
Double standards isn't really a good defence. That noone would have reacted to an abusive girlfriend dosen't mean that psycholigical abuse in both cases should be overlooked - quite the opposite! The same thing applies to Anime and Manga. The only reason that it doesnät sprout outrage in that case is a combination of Values Dissonance and the fact that that particular market i still very small.

The whole protection thing isn't a very good argument either - yes, Bella is Too Dumb To Live sometimes, but that doesn't put her under Edward's authority - that responsibility belongs to her parents for the first book, not to a kid of her own age (or someone of the same emotional maturity of a kid of her own age, at least) The rest of the series, she's of age, and noone has the right to hold her hostage, or stop her from doing something, even if that something is indirect suicide.
comment #1811 Mimimurlough 6th Feb 10
I agree it shouldn't be overlooked in any case male or female. But why no one is placing Bella along the the long lines of male characters that face the same issues? It is double standard, no matter how small the other market is (whatever that means), so we should be fair to both cases and be on uproar every time a female does something politically incorrect to her boyfriend.

In the first book her parents are not aware of the dangers she faces neither they can do anything to protect her because they are just as fragile as she is and all the books that have young people as lead have the parents absent. I mean Hermione even make her forget she had a daughter and when to a suicide mission with her friend of the same age. Its not uncommon for kids to be unsupervised when facing death.

Oh and I would like an example on fiction where the characters love each other so much that when they place themselves on mortal danger they just cross their arms and let them be.

comment #1826 Yayoiyukino 7th Feb 10
Noone ever judges a female character by the same standards as male ones, but personally I think that the attacks on Bella's intelligence is a minor issue that's blown up by the haters, much like fan haters will go off on the idiocy of any character really. It's really just a compliment to Edward's behavour.

Her parents not being able to do something about it doesn't give Edward that right, however. If Carlisle or Esme were doing the ranting, fine, because they are supposed to be figures of authority and he is supposed to be her boyfriend. And it's a very different thing to "let someone be" as opposed to physically hinder them. Even a parent doesn't have the right to hold their children hostage, so why should he have? If you need an example to believe it, you van look at Harry Potter again, where Ginny lets Harry go without protest and where Ron's family gives him their full support on their kamikaze mission. Find faults with it if you will, if they can accept the will of their loved oned to march for certain death, why can't Edward accept that his beloved if making an imformed decision to do something that might or might not turn out to be dangerous?
comment #1829 Mimimurlough 8th Feb 10
Well Bella and Edward both have their moments of idiocy and brilliant. And you are right people blow up out of proportion whatever they need depending on if they like the character or not. I try to be balanced and trust me there are times when I wanted to slap both of them but I also see their point on many cases. And I personally try to judge male and females with the same standard. I often ask myself "if the gender were inverses I would be offended by this?" Family comedies are not that funny anymore...

About Ginny and Harry are on a diferent position. Harry has already faced Voldemort and won several times and was a powerful wizard that teached a group of students how to defend themselves against the Dark Arts. Ron had spent years on the best wizardry school to defend himself and others.

Bella is a mere human depending on Jacob's (and the other werewolves) ability to control themselves to be safe. No to mention a human that smells like a vampire. I mean if there was a way she could defend herself from an attack then Edward worries would be totally unfounded, but Bella is just hanging around a dangerous place. And ITA agree that Edward is prone to overreaction and it was not his choice to make, he did realized that Bella should do what she wanted to do, and use her own judgment, so its not like he kept with the same attitude for the rest of the books. He even didn't interfered when Jacob forced-kissed Bella or when he blackmailed her into the second kiss so obviously Edward did realized that it was not his choice and took a stepped back. I just want to clarify that Edward made a mistake and grew up out of it, while hatedom usually forgets the part and makes it look like he is going to keep doing it, for every other relationship Bella had.

I used the Hermione example because she erased herself from her parents memories, don't get me wrong it was a beautiful and sad moment and I get why she did it, but if we wanted to go deep in it Hermione removed her parents choice on how to react to her kamikaze mission without even give them the chance to say good bye or even mourn for her if she failed and she did it because she was powerful enough to do it, if I wanted to hate on HP I could call it mindrape. Of course, I adore Hermione and Harry Potter so I don't see it that way. Its just an example of how things can work different depending on what are you looking for.
comment #1834 Yayoiyukino 9th Feb 10
Skipping the fact that Ron wasn't nearly as expreienced or as well informed as the older members of the order, what is the diffrence between Edwars'a actions and Hermione's? Both show pretty clear cases of abusing power, though it feels like you're defending one of them. That Edward changes his behavour a bit doesn't have much of an effect when you look at the overall picture; as far as I know, he never apologised properly, and mind you that Bella did want him to interfere when she was forced into that kiss; one of the few times that his help was explicitly needed, he didn't do anything. He seems to have grown out fo the worst, I'll give you that, bu that doesn't mean that he hasn't a long way to go.
comment #1847 Mimimurlough 11th Feb 10
I'm understanding both actions. Hermione's and Edward's in the context of the stories of course. Bella didn't wanted him to intervene with her problems with Jacob and he didn't he just stated that if he ever kissed her again without her consent he will break his face personally. I personally think he should had said something when Bella forgave Jacob and gave him another chance, but Edward is and all or nothing kind of person once he decided that Bella was in control of her relationship with Jacob he totally stepped back and let her do things her own way. Make that what you like. He grew out a lot through the books, IMO. Of course a lot of his issues with Bella's safety was because she was human. Look at his change when she was turned into a vampire. No more stalking or worrying and no more issues with her bad luck and danger magnet.
comment #1855 Yayoiyukino 12th Feb 10
Just a few words. 1. Feminism is a very complex subject related to history and social speeches. We study them at university. I suggest you doing the same. At least go and read Wikipedia, would you? 2. Being a professional in the area of social speeches and literature, as well as massive culture, I can tell you Twilight can't be interpreted from that point of view. At least, not in the silly and childish way you do it. When you say "feminism" you're using the word as it is defined by common sense. I suggest you reading Gramsci to understand what I mean when I say "common sense". Well... Gramsci would be only a step to begin with. 3. Personally, I don't even understand why they argue so much about this whole series. Maybe because they have so many followers... but many other things do, and it doesn't mean they are the big deal. The whole thing would be WHY is that possible, being of such a low quality like they are. That's one of the issues we particulary study. And, I can tell you, there are many not extraordinary explanations. Not extraordinary AT ALL. 4. Sorry if my english isn't very good, it's not my mother tongue. There are many other things I would like to say but I'm afraid I won't say it in a proper way unless I use my mother tongue. Sorry again.
comment #2071 186.140.143.2 15th Mar 10
1.Who says I haven't studied feminism? I happen to be a college graduated, and I was an active feminist when I was in college and a award winning writer, in my mother tongue. There are plenty of feminists that love and defend twilight I suggest you to do the same and look around on the net for a feminists interpretation of the series, 2. Would you please explain me as a professional why my interpretation is childlish and silly and since you are so inclined to enlightme maybe tell me what Gramsci says is common sense given that according to you I'm wrong on my approach to it.3. What would be that not extraordinary explanation about why a series with such a low quality is so unnecessarily argue according to you? 4 if you can't express your opinion properly why would you express it improperly? English is not my mother tongue either but if you know enough to understand what it says here then you should know enough to reply to it. I use my dictionary when in doubt. So I suggest you that if you care so much about making sure I know how childlish and silly my views are to comment about it, you should care enough about getting a dictionary to do it, properly and at the needed lenght. Half a comment is not a comment at all.
comment #2079 Yayoiyukino 17th Mar 10 (edited by: Yayoiyukino)
I would have to say the opposite would be true, that Twilight would be bashed even more if Bella was male. If people don't like a woman being a Distressed Damsel, they certaintly would not like a man in the same position.

For instance, compare Twilight to Tsukihime, which is the former's exact opposite, a (visual) novel about a female vampire and a male human written by a male. In this story, the human is just as dangerous as the vampire and has urges to kill her in addition to her urges to drink his blood. Also, they actively hunt other vampires and there is a very good reason why the female vampire is a virgin. That's what story about a male human and female vampire would actually be like.

comment #2102 shiroookami 22nd Mar 10
You think?

I never heard criticism about Joxer, Xander, Ron from Kim Posible... They all had the role of distressed damsels and even though their heart were on the right places they never got a chance to save the day, and often had to be rescued after trying to do the right thing and ended up making things worst or being captured. Also look at american family sitcoms and the husbands/fathers are usually portrayed as idiotic, lazy, dumb and plain looking while their wives are portrayed as smart, beautiful and always right usually saving their husbands from their own idiotic choices and that is not only acceptable but funny.

Also the story you mention sounds interesting but on Twilight world all humans are just prey, the only difference is that Bella is aware so for it to be an opposite of TL the human male must be totally helpless and a danger magnet and have the female vampire wanting to protect him at all costs.
comment #2107 Yayoiyukino 23rd Mar 10
Okay, perhaps Tsukihime, would be more of an inverse than an opposite of Twilight, because in the former the human male is a danger magnet but is actually protecting the female vampire (It Makes Sense In Context, I'm trying not to include spoilers, unless you want me to). As for American sitcoms with idiot husbands/fathers...I absolutely hate American sitcoms and most of American TV in general...which is why I watch Anime and read Manga instead...So Yeah.
comment #2110 shiroookami 23rd Mar 10
Oh please don't add the spoilers I can't watch it now but I'm on my way out of detoxication over american series and making my transition to other cultures entertainment. I always watched Manga and read Anime (wich might explain my tolerance to "problematic" couples like Bella and Edward) but I also heard that british television is doing some great things nowdays.

comment #2112 200.88.122.22 24th Mar 10
I'd rather not read this, but I've read enough. Twilight was targeted to teens. Can you imagine what would happend if girls ACTUALLY follwed Bella's foot steps?! If it was Yaoi, then YES it wouldnt be bashed so much because Yaoi is FANSERVICE!
comment #2314 LadyGaga4ever 21st Apr 10
And of course girls can't read to get fanservice? We are incapable of have fun on a fantasy world and not affect our little minds?
comment #2321 Yayoiyukino 22nd Apr 10
Maybe Jacob and Edward need to hook up. Forget about Bella.
comment #2338 mivacto 23rd Apr 10
If Bella was man, he'd be a boring silly man.

But as she is a woman she should just get back in the kitchen and bake me something delicious.
comment #2340 iwintheinternets? 24th Apr 10
  • AHEM* Your arguement honestly makes me a little sad...I will have to explain myself.
0)Twilight's problem is not innately that it's a bad book. That's up to the reader's opinion. However, it has a rediculously bad arrangement of unfortunate implications, and thus, you have the outcry. 1)We say you haven't studied feminism because you talk the advantage-taking end of it, who try to claim feminism for their gains. Femininism is defensive, anti-inferiority, not offensive, pro-supiriority. In such, Bella is so innately decision-neutral, completely helpless to the scenario around herself, and ultimately can't claim the cause of just about anything. She's a plot puppet, simply: Internally empty but used as the subject the plot drives along. She seems to lack ideals, free thought (besides her crush), etc.; thanks to the total focus on the romance and supernatural plots. 2)Bella wouldn't be so bad on her own, but we couple it with Edward, who is potrayed as psychologically abusive ('You cannot help your situation, I control it' actions, dominately), is in fact the medium that drives the plot progression of Bella's life so strongly. His strength of supiriority is supernatural, but the placement can still be seen as a medium to orchastrate gender supiriority. 3)I notice that we point out that EDWARD gets better, BELLA does not proceed to achieve any ground. So you're saying it's fine that Bella cannot start winning her battles like a protagonist typically does? It has to be the secondary main protagonist? —Who happens to have antagonized her by his displayed efforts. That feels like a 'you win because I quit screwing with your life' line of victory. 4)No, please do not cite manga/anime EVER again. Entertainment mediums should not be crossed when dealing with serious arguments of this form. Manga is innately interpreted subtly but drasticly differently, and ultimately is actively read as a total entertainment due to its deliberate cartoon form artwork, even if it's serious. Extended writings have the reader internally construct the situation as part of interpretation and makes them immediately have more thorough reflections about reading between lines alone. In an actual practice example with an anime, I can watch Elfin Leid, which is very violent, but When I try to read even a paragraph of graphic dismemberment in a book, I will start to feel sick to my stomach. 5)If you mean in sense in the writer, I feel you really should stop supporting your own argument...right now. Japanese have a drasticly different culture, and guess who isn't a Japanese person raised in a Japanese society? HMMMM... Yeah, you (hopefully) got it right. Manga/anime authors come from a different line of raising than non-japanese, so what seems acceptable or practical is going to be much different. 6)Edward's actions are strong measures that are only implied about protection justification. Since Edward seems to frequently be the blight of Bella's luck frequently with his measures, some number of readers are not going to be able to help but feel his behavior, even though a flawed effort, is innately abusive. —- That's all I'm going to do for now, I must take my leave. Please continue with at least considering these points. >.>;
comment #2348 64.193.65.107 25th Apr 10
Ack, I apologize. It seems that tvtropes has killed my spacing. ;.;
comment #2349 64.193.65.107 25th Apr 10
0) Well at least a section of the hatedom claim that the only reason they hate TL is out of its bad writing so the outcry for them is justified as that. I don’t deny that some readings of the text can find the unfortunate implications, but I disagree with the idea that is the only right way to read the text and failing to do so is a sign of stupidity or anti-feminism.

1) If you read the book and paid attention, Bella is the one that moves the plot along and the one that makes pretty much every choice that makes the books exist. The plot serves her and her wishes, and she is focused on the romance and the consequences of being a supernatural one because those are the guidelines of Romance Genre. You can consult the page about it here. TL is a Romance with supernatural/adventure elements , if you don’t like Romance I would understand your problems with the work but you can’t hate if for being a good example of what is supposed to be and for other people to like it.

2 and 3 ) If you read the books you would see that Edward’s fear of Bella not being strong enough to handle his world are proven right time and time again, she doesn’t go to shock, she doesn’t goes screaming when she founds out the truth, she doesn’t stop pursuing a relationship with Edward, or stop pursuing a relationship with Jacob... If Bella was indeed Edward’s puppets we wouldn’t have a saga at all. Edward is indeed physically stronger than Bella, but on other aspects Bella changes and improves him. Bella won plenty of the battles like leads do on those examples above. The accusations of Mary Sue are mostly because the plots bends to her will on more than one occasion. Bella was never pursuing Edward out of him using his force or manipulation to make her, or because his father or any other male said so, or because she felt as a woman inferior without a man, she did it because she WANTED,because it pleased her, because Edward was everything she wanted to and it was about Edward and the Cullens, when she decided to let of everything she did it on her own free will, So no she one out of sheer stubbornness and desire to have Edward on her life. That is not winning out of stop screwing with your life is winning out of “I probe you that I’m stronger than you think, that I can handle myself no matter how much danger it is and that I know what I want and that is you as difficult is for you to believe it”

4 and 5) Las time I checked Manga/Anime has been available to westerns society for a while and we live on a world were people can meet, interact and make friends with people from Japan with no problems. No to mention that you are underestimating the medium, I have my fair share of nerds friends crazy in love with Lara Croft back on the day that the whole birth of the code for comic books was do to their “bad influence” on our young ones. You should study the story of banning and moral guardians scare to see that everything is considered a bad influence on the young ones for the oldest generation, except people like me that remember that this is normal and only morons (or people raised by them) live their lives according to what a comic book/video game/TV/Romance novel say. And I think statistics say that TL didn’t create those morons and that if not TL they would have taken their models out of Paris Hilton or an ad on a TV.

6) I have no problem with people reading the books and getting their own readings and being uncomfortable with the work, God’s know there are plenty of books I have issues with, what I have a problem with that in many other books we have had a loser hero (lead) that the perfect smart and kick ass heroine most protect and no one ever complains about the lack of equality, like I mentioned before the primetime is filled with loser fat husbands and clever skinny wives that can do everything right while the father figure is just a dumb guy that needs to make sure doesn’t do anything stupid and she usually uses the protecting him from his own stupidity justification for her actions and no one ever sees this as wrong and is easier available that TL itself, given that for TL you should at least be able to read while on TV just watching is enough to get the hours of the same characters doing the same thing over and over again on every channel. Who knows maybe part of the popularity is that it actually shows a different type of man. And Edward and Bella both have their strengths and they compromise into what they want and in the end the book make clears that the point of this was the get them to the same place, equal both Bella became as strong and powerful as Edward and capable of protecting him and her family on the same way he protected her before, and that didn’t turned him off her or broke the romance au contraire now that he can finally stop worrying for her and just enjoy her, he becomes even more attracted to her.

Don’t apologize this page always do that, to me too if you want to continue this discussion I suggest the discussion page for TL.

comment #2361 Yayoiyukino 26th Apr 10
This review was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh!
comment #2800 98.197.249.154 7th Jun 10
Hmm I wonder if Bella is such a complete idiot that Edward has to save her every time, then why doesn't he teach Bella how to take care of herself? Some sort of Character Development would probably make the story slightly more bearable.
comment #2875 EldritchBlueRose 16th Jun 10
Well he does teaches her once she is a vampire and can actually use her powers. The thing is that humans are just walking pizzas for vampires. They don't stand a chance. They can't kill them with anything and they can't protect each others with anything far from a nuclear bomb. Had you tried to carry one of those on a purse? They are too damn big!
comment #2883 snapegirl 17th Jun 10
^^^ And you don't see the problem with having magical invincible vampires that are so much more awesome and perfect then anything?

Maybe I read that wrong...
comment #3294 24.192.58.242 8th Jul 10
Actually if this book was about a weak, passive stupid man, and a crazed stalker feamle vampire the books would get MORE bashing (if they actually took off) and the internet would mock the lead far more severely.

Check the book twilight rips off (Vampire Diaries) for a much better ordinary teen girl who doesn't know what to do with her life but has more than 2 brain cells
comment #3358 92.4.155.21 12th Jul 10
Err what? How is their relationship NOT abusive? Edward sabotages her car, watches her sleep at night, among countless other things, and his love for her is based on nothing but that she 'Smells good' WOW. Talk about a contentless relationship, there's no way ANY romance outside of fiction could take off on just that.

And, wow, the book is bashed because people are, as you imply, sexist? No. Twilight is bashed because it SUCKS. It's about a dimwit self insert teenage girl who's in "love" with the biggest God-sue ever, and is heralded as a convincing, heart warming Romance. Who's convinced? Only women who think abuse under the guise of 'protection' is love.

The only people who enjoy twilight, are people who haven't read a GOOD book. And I mean a book of the genre they like, not a 'classic' or something.
comment #3416 CommandoDude 15th Jul 10
Commando Dude, I wouldn't go as far as saying that the only people who enjoy Twilight are people who haven't read a good book. It's a guilty pleasure, though you are right in that it isn't a very well-written one. Some people who read it see the abusive relationships, others don't. Still doesn't change the fact that Edward is a controlling douchebag and that the whole relationship is a farce of a romance.
comment #3422 dragonfire5000 16th Jul 10
Honestly, I think fewer people would bash the series if it wasn't portrayed as the Greatest Love of All. I would be all over the crazy relationship dynamic if S Meyer didn't try to forcefeed me words like 'Adonis' and 'perfection' when it comes to Edward.
comment #3454 130.160.138.56 18th Jul 10
"Actually if this book was about a weak, passive stupid man, and a crazed stalker feamle vampire the books would get MORE bashing (if they actually took off) and the internet would mock the lead far more severely."

I doubt it, males usually call Edward weak and a wussy than anything and identify better off with Jacob because they consider him more manly and stronger.

"Check the book twilight rips off (Vampire Diaries) for a much better ordinary teen girl who doesn't know what to do with her life but has more than 2 brain cells"

Personal interpretation. Elena has made enough mistakes to call her judgement in question and the fact that she has to choose between a good vampire anda freaking murderer vampire really don't show her as the brighest of the teenager girl, also if Twilight were ripping off Vampire Diaries there would be more evidence than just teen girl in love with vampire (s), IMO. "Err what? How is their relationship NOT abusive? Edward sabotages her car, watches her sleep at night, among countless other things, and his love for her is based on nothing but that she 'Smells good' WOW. Talk about a contentless relationship, there's no way ANY romance outside of fiction could take off on just that.

And, wow, the book is bashed because people are, as you imply, sexist? No. Twilight is bashed because it SUCKS. It's about a dimwit self insert teenage girl who's in "love" with the biggest God-sue ever, and is heralded as a convincing, heart warming Romance. Who's convinced? Only women who think abuse under the guise of 'protection' is love.

The only people who enjoy twilight, are people who haven't read a GOOD book. And I mean a book of the genre they like, not a 'classic' or something. "

Did you copy pasted this from all the others Twilight bashers? Because you have obviously never read the books, neither have a conversation with a twilight fan. Come back when you have done both things so we can actually have a decent conversation about it.

"Honestly, I think fewer people would bash the series if it wasn't portrayed as the Greatest Love of All. I would be all over the crazy relationship dynamic if S Meyer didn't try to forcefeed me words like 'Adonis' and 'perfection' when it comes to Edward."

Not sure about that. This is Bella's way of narrate it, people can believe her or not. And a lot of people are convinced that their relationship is the best thing ever specially at the begining, you can find all the flaws Edward has on the books is just that his flaws don't outshine his virtues from Bella (and many readers) POV. I do agree that most of us were tired of the overuse of the ways to describe how beautiful Edward was because it was unnecesary after a few paragraphs we already know how beautiful he was no need to blunt us with a hammer on the head with it. At least she toned it down on the other books and finally stoped at the last one.

comment #3554 snapegirl 27th Jul 10
Regardless of whether or not the story would be bashed more if Bella was a man, it would still be a horribly-written story. Too much telling but no showing, lack of research (seriously, all it takes is a Google search to know that Brazil has no west coast), Mary Sue characters, and the amount of abuse in the relationship make for a lousy romance book.

But like I've always said, it's a guilty pleasure. It's a stupid book, but there should be no shame in liking a stupid book so long as one realizes the faults in the story and how it could be improved.
comment #3620 dragonfire5000 31st Jul 10
I should have presented this earlier, but no, guy's are not more forgiving of weak direcitonless guys. Just ask people what they think of Shinji of Evanglion.

Elena isn't perfect, but regardless of wether YOU like her more than brain dead sue Swan, she gets fits your critia and is bashed A HELLUVA lot less than Bella Swan. So yeah bella is bashed due to bad writing and being incredbly passive and retarded.
comment #3651 92.3.248.162 1st Aug 10
"Actually if this book was about a weak, passive stupid man, and a crazed stalker feamle vampire the books would get MORE bashing (if they actually took off) and the internet would mock the lead far more severely."

"I doubt it, males usually call Edward weak and a wussy than anything and identify better off with Jacob because they consider him more manly and stronger."

Still, even if they aren't bashed more, doesn't your statement already disprove that 'Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella was a man'? If males bash the actually male love interest Edward, wouldn't they also at least equally bash the book if the genders were reversed or roles switched?
comment #3682 shiro_okami 2nd Aug 10
"I should have presented this earlier, but no, guy's are not more forgiving of weak direcitonless guys. Just ask people what they think of Shinji of Evanglion."

Evangelion is very famous and loved, if this was true Shinji and Evangelion fans would be as hated as Twilight is and its not. The argument is about the whole treatment of hatedom to the work and its fans. If you check Evangelion main page and compared it to Twilight you will see the diference even though Shinji is hated people don't go out of their way to discredit the fandom and the work neither call it the reason they have no more faith on humanity. When I said more bashed I didn't implied bashed it at all I meant the intensity and the arguments, no to mention the people that critize it at least did watched the series while hatedom is pretty much working on things they heard and proudly say they couldn't even pass the first book. That is a diferent can of worms.

"Regardless of whether or not the story would be bashed more if Bella was a man, it would still be a horribly-written story. Too much telling but no showing, lack of research (seriously, all it takes is a Google search to know that Brazil has no west coast), Mary Sue characters, and the amount of abuse in the relationship make for a lousy romance book."

This is my main point there are plenty of books with the same problems and defects and even though the proportional rule says that the bigger the fanbase the bigger the hatedom but the way things had gone beyond hating to work to hating the fans and her creator make me think there is something more than just "the books are badly written thus the world is going to end" Some people had analized that deep down is a hate towards female orientated/fueled things given that their main target audience are females, is written by a female and its about feelings more than anything else, and has made a crap ton of money and became a phenomenon thus only crappy guy things that are written by men and fueled by men are allowed to be succesful. I mean Michael Bay is not good but he made a crap ton of money, James Bond books had been around for ages and is male wish fullfillment to the T and yet they don't get the amount of hate Twilight does...I think they might be onto something about the problem being females and feminine and not the crappy writing, per se. And before you tell me that some females hate Twilight as much as males, there are plenty of women that consider things that had been traditionally aimed to girls (pink, dresses, tears, feelings) being detrimental to feminism just because they have a only manly stuff are worth it mindset. And there are heterosexual twilight guys (specially among the latin america comunity) around too. I mean when was the last time we got a wildly succesful phenomenon almost exclusively fueled by women/girls? I think Beatle mania and in a smaller scale boybands and if you look at the bashing they got are simmilar and I would say Edward Cullen is our generation Rodolfo Valentino in that aspect.

"Elena isn't perfect, but regardless of wether YOU like her more than brain dead sue Swan, she gets fits your critia and is bashed A HELLUVA lot less than Bella Swan. So yeah bella is bashed due to bad writing and being incredbly passive and retarded."

First Vampire Diaries its not a Romance Genre series, second Elena its not living on a vampire world where humans are completely defenseless against vampires, third they are not as popular as Twilight and third the character has diferent choices given the universe than she lives in. Comparing her to Bella and Twilight doesn't make sense. I meant on a world where Edward was the human and Bella was the vampire that need to protects him with the same actions.

"If males bash the actually male love interest Edward, wouldn't they also at least equally bash the book if the genders were reversed or roles switched?"

Not really if Bella was the stereotypical Lara Croft clone, men would love her. But Edward would need to be less feminine for them to stop bashing the book. From what I had gathered, Edward is considered a wuss because he is a virgin, he is pretty, talks about his feelings, and is fascinated to do stuff with Bella with no hopes or needs for sex, has low self steem, and their activities are quiet things like reading and listening to music aside from the fact that he hangs out the most with another female Alice and lives on an equally gender balanced household) and its willing to let Bella choose to be with Jacob if that is what makes her happy with no prospects of hooking up with another woman. Jacob is the opposite, he is more forward towards sex, he is rougher, has a big ego and everything he does with Bella are manly activities (riding bikes, eating food she cooked...) he has a pack of bros to hang out to do man stuff with them (like hunting) and he cannot accept that Bella posibly could be happier with Edward than with him and spent a big amount of time in this mindset. The whole watching her sleep and taking the engine out and kidpnaping are usually mentioned but deep down most of them consider Jacob still being the underdog in spite of him doing things that can be considered at least as bad as Edward did (More often than not Jacob lied, manipulated, insulted and forced himself on Bella and didn't respected her feelings, choices and though he knew better than her). If they were honest about their dislike of the series they will at least equally hate both of them, but its not a coincidence Edward being the more bashed one and the more feminine too, while Jacob is the underdog and manlier one too, YMMV.

comment #3710 Yayoiyukino 3rd Aug 10
"Evangelion is very famous and loved, if this was true Shinji and Evangelion fans would be as hated as Twilight is and its not. The argument is about the whole treatment of hatedom to the work and its fans. If you check Evangelion main page and compared it to Twilight you will see the diference even though Shinji is hated people don't go out of their way to discredit the fandom and the work."

There is one hole in your argument here, and that is how Shinji and Twilight characters are treated in-universe. The difference is that Shinji is considered weak both by fans and IN THE STORY ITSELF, and even Shinji HIMSELF thinks that he's weak. The problem that the hatedom has with Edward and his relationship with Bella is that he behaves like a stalker and yet in the story itself he is a Relationship Sue. Part of the bashing is due not to Edward's character itself but rather the unrealistic portrayal of it. Anno created Evangelion with a high level of self-awareness where the characters are screwed up ON PURPOSE. Stephanie Meyer portrays Edward's character (and I suppose Jacob's too) as normal or even desirable when it really isn't. And the point I was trying to make is that if Edward's stalker behavior is considered normal, then if he and Bella switched places then his weak, directionless behavior would also be considered normal when it shouldn't be.
comment #3739 shiro_okami 4th Aug 10 (edited by: shiro_okami)
There is one hole in your argument here, and that is how Shinji and Twilight characters are treated in-universe. "The difference is that Shinji is considered weak both by fans and IN THE STORY ITSELF, and even Shinji HIMSELF thinks that he's weak. The problem that the hatedom has with Edward and his relationship with Bella is that he behaves like a stalker and yet in the story itself he is a Relationship Sue. Part of the bashing is due not to Edward's character itself but rather the unrealistic portrayal of it. Anno created Evangelion with a high level of self-awareness where the characters are screwed up ON PURPOSE. Stephanie Meyer portrays Edward's character (and I suppose Jacob's too) as normal or even desirable when it really isn't. And the point I was trying to make is that if Edward's stalker behavior is considered normal, then if he and Bella switched places then his weak, directionless behavior would also be considered normal when it shouldn't be".

I think you (hatedom generally) didn't read the books thus they again missed the point of the stalking, Bella doesn't considers it normal in the sense that "all guys stalk girls" or "a guy stalking me!? hot!!!" but on the sense that Edward following her around had saved her life twice and after she found out that he could had killed the first day after school, it was a plot point and I wouldn't say the universe its not aware of it but uses it to stablish something important for both characters. The other reason of the stalking from the vampire lore point of view is that it was a reverse of the vampire trait of stalking pretty girls to kill them, Edward does it to save the pretty girl. The problem with hatedom is that they assume that just because we understand and accept it as part of the dynamic of the relationship on a book about vampires means that we will accept it if a human guy would stalk us on real life, it makes as much sense as assuming that we will accept as normal people that can read minds on a regular basis. Nothing farther from the truth. In fact I would dare any hatedom member to try and stalk any twilight fan girl on Real Life I'm pretty sure the restrictions orders would be filled fastest than a vampire running. So no even if is used on a relationship fantasy relationships work the same way as fantasy mechanics, or fantasy cars, creatures and so on...Why is that idea so hard to buy for hatedom? is a fantasy world and we prefer to live in it on our spare time, but at the same time we are aware of the very real world that surround us.
comment #3749 Yayoiyukino 5th Aug 10
Because fantasy doesn't work that way; fantasy doesn't mean "do whatever the hell you want in a story." The idea is so hard to buy because it's stupid plain and simple; saying his stalking is okay because he's doing it to protect someone sounds much too much like someone getting smacked around because the person hitting them loves them and is doing it for their own good. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth for some.
comment #3753 dragonfire5000 5th Aug 10 (edited by: dragonfire5000)
"Because fantasy doesn't work that way; fantasy doesn't mean "do whatever the hell you want in a story."

Errr that is exactly how fantasy work. Neverending story cliché but Fantasy doesn't has bounderies. I'm a firm beleiver in creativity freedom and frankly teaching people to police their fantasies to make them conform to some others ideas of what is proper and politically correct would kill any creativity we will have left. I mean I have personal squicks like anyone but I always defend the right that people have to like whatever they want regarding of I like it or not. Isn't that the essence of tolerance? How can you teach tolerance to people (and I mean the haters that do preach the Twilight hate to people they have power on like peers and their children) if you act like is okay to hate on something and/or their fans and consider them stupid and tasteless because you personally dislike it?

"The idea is so hard to buy because it's stupid plain and simple; saying his stalking is okay because he's doing it to protect someone sounds much too much like someone getting smacked around because the person hitting them loves them and is doing it for their own good. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth for some"."

And I would understand that personally rubs you (generally you) wrong, we even had some comments of people that say that it hits them too close to home for them to enjoy it, but some of them are self aware enough to know that just because if personally disturbs you doesn't mean that is the only sane reacion to the plot point, because perception is really personal and is colored by our personal experiences, fears and hopes. Is the acting all mighty and high saying things like is "it's stupid because it rubs ME wrong" that things enter into a nasty territory, IMO.

comment #3812 Yayoiyukino 9th Aug 10
"Because fantasy doesn't work that way; fantasy doesn't mean 'do whatever the hell you want in a story'."

"Errr that is exactly how fantasy work."

I think what he's talking about here is Willing Suspension Of Disbelief. Yes, you can technically do whatever you want in fantasy, but that doesn't mean that it's believable or logical. And unless Refuge In Audacity applies, there are some expectations and rules a reader/viewer will expect, like Magic A Is Magic A for one (which Meyer is accused of violating). Furthermore, no matter what genre, characterization is universal. No matter how many laws of physics your universe breaks, unless Comedy Tropes or Fanservice apply, readers/viewers will generally expect characters and relationships to behave realistically.
comment #3829 shiro_okami 9th Aug 10 (edited by: shiro_okami)
You can technically write whatever you want in any story; it doesn't mean that it'll be good. Meyer, however, already lost the "It's fantasy!" card when she tried to use science to explain her vampires, which didn't work out that well either.

Fantasy isn't about writing whatever you want; the fantasy genre is still bound by certain rules depending on the setting of the story. Writing without any regards to how much Willing Suspension Of Disbelief the general audience can take is a sign of an immature writer.
comment #3836 dragonfire5000 9th Aug 10
Oh its if suspension of disbelief I can see your point. I know Smeyer applying science has many issues (wich was not the original point) but this is also a matter that discriminate her when in reality few authors use science accurately I mean look what universes like Star Wars (Midi Chlorians A.K.A: The force), Star Trek where the technobabble is used to explain the unexplainable, the whole controversy about Krypton and Kryptonians or Mutant Powers...I mean I'm a nerd I had spent insane amounts of time with other like minded trying to figure out how can that posible work. I remember a particular long post discussing the mechanics of Superman able to have sex with a human female or how can he father any kid (I know Superman Returns is Discontinued we had to fanwank it, we can't help it!) so I see that faulty science on the books has been exagerating because of the work and not because of the faulty science per se. God's know that you have to find a lot of serious faulty science on a lot of works of fiction.
comment #3879 Yayoiyukino 11th Aug 10
The difference is that those kinds of books are science fiction; it's inevitable that there's going to be "science" that stretches Willing Suspension Of Disbelief. Problem with your argument? Twilight is not science fiction, therefore it doesn't benefit from the same Willing Suspension Of Disbelief that works like Star Trek and Star Wars get.

You seem to have a habit of trying to bring up the faults of other works in order to make Twilight look like a better story. It's not working.
comment #3882 dragonfire5000 11th Aug 10 (edited by: dragonfire5000)
Bella isn't a strong female character, which is the standard these days. She's weak, annoying, and can't live without her man. It's 2010, right? Why are people even discussing this? Just admit it and move on.
comment #3884 Thormy 11th Aug 10
"The difference is that those kinds of books are science fiction; it's inevitable that there's going to be "science" that stretches Willing Suspension Of Disbelief. Problem with your argument? Twilight is not science fiction, therefore it doesn't benefit from the same Willing Suspension Of Disbelief that works like Star Trek and Star Wars get."

Why not?

"You seem to have a habit of trying to bring up the faults of other works in order to make Twilight look like a better story. It's not working."

I don't do it to make it look better just to show the double standard, Twilight is bashed for faults that are the bread and wine of many other books/movies with large fanbases as well and they don't recieve not even the 10% of nitpicking/criticism that Twilight has.

"Bella isn't a strong female character, which is the standard these days."

I don't understand this reasoning much of the criticism is that she is perpetuation gender stereotypes how can she perpetuate something that its not the standard?

"She's weak, annoying, and can't live without her man. It's 2010, right? Why are people even discussing this? Just admit it and move on. "

The issue here is that Edward all humans male and female are weak, while all vampires male and female are strong, annoying its a personal acertation not a fact and Edward (strong vampire male) can't live without his woman either. So long as the hatedom keeps making this all about Bella without taking a look at how the other half of the relationship we will have to discuss this. I don't enjoy double standards specially when used for bashing.

comment #3920 Yayoiyukino 12th Aug 10
To get back on topic:

"The issue here is that all humans male and female are weak, while all vampires male and female are strong, annoying its a personal acertation not a fact and Edward (strong vampire male) can't live without his woman either. So long as the hatedom keeps making this all about Bella without taking a look at how the other half of the relationship we will have to discuss this. I don't enjoy double standards specially when used for bashing."

Who said the hatedom keeps making it all about Bella? When someone made the comment below:

"Actually if this book was about a weak, passive stupid man, and a crazed stalker female vampire the books would get MORE bashing (if they actually took off) and the internet would mock the lead far more severely."

someone replied with this quote:

"I doubt it, males usually call Edward weak and a wussy than anything and identify better off with Jacob because they consider him more manly and stronger."

So if people DO complain about Edward then where does the double standard come from? Is it that they don't complain about him as much as Bella? Personally, I could care less whether Bella is weak, strong, or whatever. But if a guy took Bella's place (with a girl taking Ed's place) and acted the same way she is described as doing so, I'd think the story was worse, and I don't think I'd be the only one (or at least only guy) who would think that way.
comment #3921 shiro_okami 12th Aug 10
"I don't do it to make it look better just to show the double standard, Twilight is bashed for faults that are the bread and wine of many other books/movies with large fanbases as well and they don't recieve not even the 10% of nitpicking/criticism that Twilight has."

A large fanbase doesn't equal a good story; Mein Kampf was a bestseller and it was pretty much Hitler raving and ranting. Twilight gets bashed for having badly written characters, lack of research (a rich banker in the Great Depression and the "west coast" of Brazil; seriously, this kind of mistake is near inexcusable), a crappy story, and a farce of a romance. Other stories may have some sort of redeeming feature that gather less nitpicking; this series is bashed because it's badly written, plain and simple.

Meyer doesn't get that much Willing Suspension Of Disbelief with her so-called "scientific vampire" compared to science fiction because it's in the paranormal romance genre. The science was supposed to make the vampires seem more realistic; when the science she uses to make them seem more realisitic turns out to be bullshit science, it really kills her credibility as a writer.
comment #3923 dragonfire5000 12th Aug 10
Also, this is driving me crazy - "Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella WERE a man".
comment #3937 Thormy 13th Aug 10
"Also, this is driving me crazy - "Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella WERE a man"

Oops sorry. English its not my first language and this part doesn't let me edit. Thanks for the correction.

"So if people DO complain about Edward then where does the double standard come from? Is it that they don't complain about him as much as Bella?"

Bella weakness its the problem Edward being wuss is not because he is phisically stronger the wuss problem is more because he does nothing when Jacob openly do things to keep him away from his girlfriend and to make both of them mad. The original point was about phisical strenght and overprotection.

"Personally, I could care less whether Bella is weak, strong, or whatever. But if a guy took Bella's place (with a girl taking Ed's place) and acted the same way she is described as doing so, I'd think the story was worse, and I don't think I'd be the only one (or at least only guy) who would think that way."

To use an example, take a look at how men like Xander and Joxer were portrayed around phisically/take charge stronger girls and tell me how many people complained about that. They were not the leads mind you but they indeed were the well intentioned but barely effective. You can see characters like Shia La befouf on Transformers that was as averages as Bella and got lucky to get the hot girl to notice him (and another one in the next movie) and see that if you change their gender they are pretty much Bella with another scenerio and even if Transformers is considered mindless entertainment and dumb given that is aimed at men/boys don't get the level of bashing Twilight gets. Its basic much the same wish fullfillment for both genders (being loved by the hottest one without having to be a superman/woman aka being yourself) but if the lead is female then its mercyless bashed.

"A large fanbase doesn't equal a good story;"

Never meant that just to say that Twilight is as big as Star Wars, Star Trek and some other fantasy fanbases.

"Mein Kampf was a bestseller and it was pretty much Hitler raving and ranting."

Apples and oranges Hitler wrote that book as figure of authority and to get the german to support his ideas and they responded to it not out of the literature value (not sure if is any good I actually haven't read it for obvious reasons)but because it tell them what they needed to hear in their time of crisis.

"Twilight gets bashed for having badly written characters, lack of research (a rich banker in the Great Depression and the "west coast" of Brazil; seriously, this kind of mistake is near inexcusable), a crappy story, and a farce of a romance. Other stories may have some sort of redeeming feature that gather less nitpicking; this series is bashed because it's badly written, plain and simple."

Disagree with this idea the book has its flaws, but it also has redeeming features as well. This is the nitpicking at work only mentioning the parts that are problematic and not recognizing the parts that are actually well done I mean if they are so lacking how come they get emotional strong reactions as love and hate neither or became worldwide phenomenoms on many diferent cultures and languages? something must had been done right don't you think?

"Meyer doesn't get that much Willing Suspension Of Disbelief with her so-called "scientific vampire" compared to science fiction because it's in the paranormal romance genre. The science was supposed to make the vampires seem more realistic; when the science she uses to make them seem more realisitic turns out to be bullshit science, it really kills her credibility as a writer."

The science behind the Midichlorians and/or Warp drives has as many problems as the science that makes vampire work...do we have a big bashing anti ST/SW movement like we have with TL? Don't you think that is at least peculiar? Suspension of disbelief is something very personal and again targed driven. I remember how much certain characters that come from my country on fiction end up being so unrepresentative of my countryfolk that I couldn't suspend disbelief that much but it didn't affected the other people or story at large so again. Personal bias its not a right justification for bashing, specially if you have proof that a lot of people have not the same problems with it.
comment #4046 Yayoiyukino 19th Aug 10
"To use an example, take a look at how men like Xander and Joxer were portrayed around phisically/take charge stronger girls and tell me how many people complained about that. They were not the leads mind you but they indeed were the well intentioned but barely effective. You can see characters like Shia La Beouf on Transformers that was as averages as Bella and got lucky to get the hot girl to notice him (and another one in the next movie) and see that if you change their gender they are pretty much Bella with another scenerio and even if Transformers is considered mindless entertainment and dumb given that is aimed at men/boys don't get the level of bashing Twilight gets. Its basic much the same wish fullfillment for both genders (being loved by the hottest one without having to be a superman/woman aka being yourself) but if the lead is female then its mercyless bashed."

I don't know about other people, but your example doesn't work with me. I've never seen Buffy, but in Joxer's case his character was SUPPOSED to be like that for comic relief, and his not being the lead does make a difference (he was only a recurring character, not in every episode). As for Transformers, your reasoning makes sense, but I HATED Shia's character in that movie so much that on a second viewing I found myself INCAPABLE of watching certain scenes most of the movie of him making a fool of himself DESPITE THE HOTNESS THAT IS MEGAN FOX. THAT IDIOT MADE WATCHING MEGAN FOX UNENJOYABLE!!! UNFORGIVABLE!!! *Ahem* But, anyway, Shia's character did break Willing Suspension Of Disbelief for me.....repeatedly. OK, maybe I don't bash it because of that, but that's not my personality, and the movies considered to be bad anyway.

"Bella weakness its the problem Edward being wuss is not because he is phisically stronger the wuss problem is more because he does nothing when Jacob openly do things to keep him away from his girlfriend and to make both of them mad. The original point was about phisical strenght and overprotection."

I don't understand your comment here (what does physical strength have to do with anything?), please explain better. (The bad grammer doesn't help, either.)

comment #4047 shiro_okami 19th Aug 10 (edited by: shiro_okami)
"Apples and oranges Hitler wrote that book as figure of authority and to get the german to support his ideas and they responded to it not out of the literature value (not sure if is any good I actually haven't read it for obvious reasons)but because it tell them what they needed to hear in their time of crisis."

You do know that Hitler wrote that while imprisoned, right? It works as an example because it goes to show that a bestseller is merely a book that sold many copies; quantity does not equal quality when it comes to how good a work of writing is.

"Disagree with this idea the book has its flaws, but it also has redeeming features as well. This is the nitpicking at work only mentioning the parts that are problematic and not recognizing the parts that are actually well done I mean if they are so lacking how come they get emotional strong reactions as love and hate neither or became worldwide phenomenoms on many diferent cultures and languages? something must had been done right don't you think? "

It's not nitpicking; lack of research and horrible character development are legitimate problems in writing that can cripple a story. I have yet to see anything that these books have done well other than give certain people masturbation fuel, which does not mean that the books are a well-written story. Fanfiction smut can do the same thing, you know.

"The science behind the Midichlorians and/or Warp drives has as many problems as the science that makes vampire work...do we have a big bashing anti ST/SW movement like we have with TL? Don't you think that is at least peculiar?"

...You don't know much about the Star Wars fandom, do you? The midichlorians thing is one of many issues that cause a bonfire in that fandom. A Nd the reason there doesn't seem to be big bashing ST/SW movements? Those stories actually had well-written characters and a semblance of a plot. Twilight doesn't have those.

"Suspension of disbelief is something very personal and again targed driven. I remember how much certain characters that come from my country on fiction end up being so unrepresentative of my countryfolk that I couldn't suspend disbelief that much but it didn't affected the other people or story at large so again. Personal bias its not a right justification for bashing, specially if you have proof that a lot of people have not the same problems with it."

You've been shrieking "Personal! Personal!" like a parrot on most of your arguments. Let me put it this way for you: when it comes to debating the quality of a story, the "personal reading" card you so like to pull only goes so far. I have already stated other reasons why it's a bad story; personal readings do not excuse things like a "west coast of Brazil." The romance is unconvincing and the personal card doesn't work here either; are you going to pull the same card to justify a rapist who seriously thought that the victim liked it? Finally, the plot is virtually nonexistant and takes a back seat to Edward and Bella spouting teenage angst bullshit and staring at each other. The plot should never have to take a backseat in a good story. And don't give me the excuse that "the romance is the plot." There is nothing in the story that convinces me there is a romance (this opinion, according to you, is protected by the 'personal reading'). Joking aside, there is no indication that the two characters have any sort of chemistry between them, talking about likes and dislikes, helping each other get over their character flaws, etc.

comment #4050 dragonfire5000 19th Aug 10 (edited by: dragonfire5000)
"Here's the problem; The Joker is a villain. He was never meant to be the pinnacle of human virtue. Your example doesn't hold."

I think she meant Joxer from Xena Warrior Princess.
comment #4061 shiro_okami 19th Aug 10
My bad; I've never seen Xena Warrior Princess and assumed it was a misspelling of Joker.
comment #4062 dragonfire5000 19th Aug 10
Bella is not a normal teenage girl.. She is a selfish sociopath who are willing to let hundreds of people die just so she can have what she wants (case in point: New Moon and Eclipse, they warned her that there would be a war if she got turned into a vampire, but she did it anyway because she wanted to look pretty or something) in addition to being whiny, ineffectual, and useless. Twilight sucks. Hard. And if anyone can relate to this sociopath, then you have some serious problems. I just don't get how she is supposed to be relateable. Even my girlfriend hates her (she watches the movies anyway), hell, even my 11 year old sister is mature enough to recognize how stupid these movies are and how selfish the protagonist is.
comment #4240 CP/FMfan 31st Aug 10
This review makes no sense. Twilight would be bashed even more for promoting gay love. Am I Completely Missing The Point?
comment #4741 LOLin8or 9th Oct 10
"Also look at american family sitcoms and the husbands/fathers are usually portrayed as idiotic, lazy, dumb and plain looking while their wives are portrayed as smart, beautiful and always right usually saving their husbands from their own idiotic choices and that is not only acceptable but funny"

Yes, they are funny. Because they're comedies. Twilight is not a comedy (on purpose).
comment #4934 216.160.22.126 27th Oct 10
"the proportional rule says that the bigger the fanbase the bigger the hatedom"

HEY LISTEN I THINKS ALL WEMEN SHOULD JUST STAY IN TEH KITCHEN AND MAKE ME EH SANDWICH(OR MAYBE EH BURGER)
comment #4935 216.160.22.126 27th Oct 10 (edited by: fdydf)
Late to the party, but...

"God's know that you have to find a lot of serious faulty science on a lot of works of fiction."

That may be so, but these excusable examples are because the writers generally did a better job of presenting their material. Making stuff up is generally a very delicate balance of research, presentation, and show-don't-tell. As in, you do research on a topic that's been done before and come up with rules, you then present just enough material to the audience, and you stick to them throughout the text—not when things become plot-convenient.

There are exceptions to everything, but the most well-known examples are by creators who know what they're doing. Stephanie Meyer? Didn't. Not when she was writing the Saga, at any rate.

At any rate, I've read all four books and actually did my college undergrad thesis on why Bella Swan is not a good role model for teenage girls. And my conclusion to your review is this. It ignores the fact that Bella has no autonomy in the books, fetishizes and idealizes harmful masculine behavior, and it treats Leah—the one female in the book who puts higher education over marriage—is seen as inferior because she can't bear children. Meg Wallace and Coraline are MUCH better female role models for children and YA audiences—and they don't suck, which is an added bonus.
comment #5583 67.103.165.198 30th Dec 10
HEY LIST 3 N 2 ME!!! I HAS CREATED(LIKE TEH MIGHTY CREAT 0 R) THIS FOOLISH ACCOUNT aND C 0 M M3n TED BEECAUSE I COULD NAUGHT BOTHER 2 LOG(LIKE A WOOD)IN WITH ME RAEL ACCOUNTS

MISTER FEMINIST do you know that Jacob imprinted on Bella and Edwards unborn child and psychically caused it to become his wife when it's born!!!!!! THAT IS PURE EVUL AND NOT VERY FEMINISTIC(OR MANLYISTIC EITHER) AND U CALLS THIS A GOOD BOOK FOR PORTRAYING WEMEN!!! U IZ NO TRUE FEMINIST!!!! U IZ EH MISOGYNIST!!!

also what would have happened if teh unborn child was MALE!?!
comment #11936 fdydf 17th Dec 11
You do have a point here. If Bella were a man there would not be nearly as much bashing. Either a) the book would be mostly unknown, or b) most bashers could be turned away by accusing them of homophobia.
comment #15650 inmylife 3rd Aug 12
A teenager who is willing to cut herself off from her family, disregard her education, and attempt suicide over someone she just met is NOT romantic, nor is she anywhere close to being independent.

A true feminist would realize that the man she has the hots for is not the only thing worth living for. She would have a personality completely independent to her relationship.

Bella doesn't. Her entire existence is based on her interactions with one guy. Even when he's not there, she still has no other purpose at all but to love him. Outside of Ed, the only interest she is shown as having developed is reading. And that was something that happened before she even met him.

Your comments about abusive relationships are counter to what statistics show. The abuser in the relationship is not actually about hurting the person, but controlling them. And while she does make a few stands, few abusive relationships start out so controlling. It's usually some show of domination here and there and can sometimes be written off as a dominant personality and not an unhealthy relationship.

It is true that there are quite a few that do end up into hardcore abuse fairly quickly, the majority seem to take a few years to really take hold.

Red flags of Edward's control problems:

1. He doesn't not make requests, he makes demands. Sure Bella shrugs off a few here and there, but again, the relationship is still fresh. And remember, the problem with abusive relationships isn't about defiance. It's about the inability to stay away from the person.

2. He has to know where she is at all times. He watches her while she's sleeping without her knowledge. He has associates track her without her knowledge. Claims its for her safety. Guess how many controlling boyfriends/girlfriends have used this excuse before.

3. Has trouble trusting others around her. Part of wanting to know where your SO is if you're an abuser is your inability to control the situation if you're not there. They are paranoid that the other person in the relationship will leave. The have an emotional dependency on this other person that is so over powering, they cannot think logically. Note Edward's jealousy of her friendship with Jacob.

4. His shows of strength/power/domination to impress her. He drives at an incredibly high rate of speed even after knowing full well that it scares Bella out of her mind. Also note his constant referrals to his self control around her. He's afraid that he can lose it at any time. He constantly reminds her that he can kill her before she realizes there's danger. Now just imagine how many people have heard things like that before?

5. His insistence that she needs his protection. Again, a huge red flag. Abusers attempt to keep their victims under control by convincing them that the victim could not live without them. They create the same dependence they themselves feel. Was he wrong? Yep. He wouldn't be the first abusive boyfriend to be wrong about it.

6. This is the scariest of all. He's so obsessed with controlling her that he's upset that he can't read her every single thought. A guy who wants a healthy relationship with a girl wants to discover that. Gradually getting to know each other through ups and downs is what brings couples closer together. Knowing everything right this second not only takes away any of those things that surprise couples well into their golden age and helps to keep them interested, it gives him more ammo to use to control her. Note how it's not just Bella he has controlling tendencies with. He orders everyone around. He's the leader of the vampire family. When one of the family members he's known every thought of for a very long time disappears, he doesn't trust that she's doing something for the group. He writes it off as her trying to save herself. In his mind, not letting him have control of the entire situation is essentially betrayal.

Now, on to Bella. This is a girl whose only just met a guy. It's already been established that she cares deeply about her family and thinks her dad actually needs her. What does she do as soon as her boyfriend says she can never see him again? Leave. Someone she cares for and knows is lonely. She leaves him.

Before she met Edward and started a relationship with him, she seemed fairly into reading. She was into her family, and she was even starting to get into school. When they start dating? No interest in anything at all but him. Period. He leaves to protect her? She attempts suicide.

She gives up her family, her education, the friends that she was just starting to make all for one guy. She stops showing interest in anything and everything else.

She may be showing a bit of independence here and there, but, again, the abuse in relationships is very subtle in the beginning.

I've read your defense of all of this. You're right. The story is built up in such away as to justify some of this. But to pass it off as romance is chilling.

The implications would be the same if the genders were reversed. Perhaps even worse. People are supportive of emotionally and physically battered women and are very willing to help them out. However, the way current societal roles are, there is very, very little to be found for a battered man.

"Traditional roles" have nothing to do with my assessment. I wholly support stay-at-home mothers. The general assumption, though, is that they do have interests that are separate from their husbands.

Bella doesn't have that. Once she falls for Edward, that is her only motivation. Her thought process is completely consumed by her relationship with him. Any kind of action she takes is based on it. Thus, her only reason to exist is for him. Screw everyone who cared about her up until that point. She's got a boyfriend.
comment #15652 Doxiedame 3rd Aug 12
That's BS,if Bella were a man,...Bella would be criticized for not being manly enough, and for not hitting on more girls...Edward would be looked at as a slut,...Jacob would get a disproportionate amount of sympathy,...teh feminists would divinely proclaim Jacob "To have been emotionally battered" and thus "driven" into that forced kiss,....same excuse for imprinting on the baby

If Charlie was female,...the reaction would be the same,but if Renee was a man,...no one would frown about it,...it'd be Played For Laughs because all men are supposed to be bumbling idiots.

No no no,the reaction would be "better",...but only because misandry is taken less seriously than misogyny and MRA's would get silenced,because feminists have more say. But the writing would still be terrible enough for the reception to be about the same,the Hate Dumb would just be smaller

comment #15653 terlwyth 3rd Aug 12
The problem I have with Bella isn't the fact that she doesn't "know what to do with her life" or grades or whatever. Fuck I'd sympathize with her on the not knowing what to do with your life cus I'm the exact same way in that sense. No, the problem I have with Bella is that she's a whiny self-absorbed bitch who has some self-destructive tendencies (obsession and what appears to be severe mood swings or Bipolar disorder I honestly don't know). Here's an example. Bella wants to be turned into a Vampire right? For what good reason should she be turned into a vampire? Because of LUV? All of the Cullens were forcibly turned into vampires and had NO choice in the matter and here's Bella, literally throwing her life away just so she can fufill some bullshit fantasy about "love". Basically she's that petulant brat in the candy isle screaming at the top of her lungs "I WANT CANDY!!" and GETS IT, simply because she's so "perfect" and "saintly", yet nowhere in the series has Bella demonstrated any sort of behavior or self-sacrifice that would make it even vaguely plausible that she should be turned into a vampire.
comment #23451 FullBlast 12th Mar 14
Late to the party too. Yayoi Yukino, you are my hero, and You Are Not Alone.
comment #26953 sacredcowtipper 14th Nov 14
If there was a story of a man constantly putting himself into dangerous situations like crashing his motor-bike and jumping off a cliff to see a girl who he's always staring at I don't think that would be very well accepted.
comment #26963 lexicon 14th Nov 14
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