Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella was a man.
Bella is just the typical reluctant hero she enters a new world with a lot of insecurities and is mesmerized by the love interest that happens to be the vampire. All the questions that said that Bella didn't had any interest could be applied to MANY male heroes that don't particularly care about their grades or/and have any idea of what to do with life. But it looks like all women should want to be C.E.O or that all female character should make a feminist statement. I'm a woman and a feminist with a terrific caring husband and I do not like that feminism is taking the same route as chauvinism did where they have rules about what women should do and women should obey. I think there are as many women that want to run their own company as there are that just want to fall in love and have a family or that want both and all of them are right because is their life. I think that is one of the reasons Twilight has touched so many girls/women and SOME men is that Bella is just an average girl not a preteen superwoman and that is kind of refreshing on this time and day.
Since have first experience on abusive men on my own family this is not it: doormats don't disobey EVER their mates out of fear while Bella keeps doing that till Edward learns to let her be wich is something an abuser doesn't do. They are always right and the woman is always wrong and if she doesn't agree then he will teach her whether by physical abuse or threats to her life.
I'm not saying that Edward is perfect (he is also an 100 years old virgin idiot) but he lives on a world of predators that kill humans on seconds and that is unknown to Bella and since she is another idiot, she constantly place herself on situations that could have her killed. Now if in this world humans could find a way to kill vampires or protect themselves and Bella either never learns or Edward doesn't let her learn I would have a problem with this, but since this isn't the case what should Edward do? Let her get killed? Outside of making sure she doesn't die Sparklepire pretty much allows her to do whatever she pleases and he makes sure to let her choose if she would rather be with him or any other guy if that is what makes her happy and even tolerates the other guy hanging around. Abusive men would had her killed just thinking of this.
16th Nov 09
(edited by: Whoeverski)
16th Nov 09
I'm sorry, but that review is just incredibly difficult to read without any commas or paragraph breaks.
16th Nov 09
Ok I will try to edit it ASAP...Its my first review in this format so is just a rookie mistake.
17th Nov 09
17th Nov 09
18th Nov 09
(edited by: Yayoiyukino)
My case for Edward being abusive, and the "protection," thing being bullshit:
While Bella is indeed Too Dumb To Live, if you look, Edward's "protection," seems awfully convenient for him. In Twilight, he follows her on her trip out of town. Then he breaks into her house to watch her sleep every night, leaving before she wakes up. Supposedly, this is to protect her. But from what? Asleep in her room, unrealistically clumsy Bella is probably safer then than she is at any time during the day... Except for the fact that, without her knowledge, a vampire who is constantly on the edge of brutally murdering her is spending the entire night with her, with no witnesses whatsoever. It seems to me that his presence would put her in far more danger, hey? So when you think about it, the "protection," thing is just a pathetic excuse to indulge his obsession with her through some pretty fucking major stalking. That alone would be enough to qualify him as abusive, but there's more.
That his presence endangers rather than protects her [which is also true of his family] would be true most of the time, were it not for the author's determination to turn Bella into a damsel in distress, to be heroically rescued by her boyfriend every five minutes. He does leave a couple of times so he won't gobble her up, but he always comes back, showing that in the end, his desire to have Bella outweighs his desire to keep her safe.
This doesn't mean he can't use the "protection," thing to his advantage again, however. This time, rather than use it as an excuse to stalk Bella and watch her sleep, he uses it to force her not to see her best friend. He disables her car so she can't drive to see him, and uses his constant presence to trap her - Bella mentions knowing that she can't go on foot to see Jacob, because Edward's with her all the time, and could catch her in an instant. When he's forced to leave for the weekend to hunt, he bribes his sister to kidnap Bella, and take his place.
Oh, but these things are done to protect her from the werewolves, so it's okay... The only problem with this logic is, while the wolves may not be 100% safe, they're close to it... A lot closer than Edward and his family. Basically, they just have to avoid transformation when standing right next to Bella - given they have several seconds of warning, this is easy. Meanwhile, they don't constantly lust for her blood, they won't try to kill the accident-prone moron over something as simple as a paper cut, and they've never killed a single person - how many times do you think any of the Cullens have "fallen off the wagon," as Edward put it in the first book? So, the werewolves aren't that dangerous, but Edward's being a major hypocrite about this whole "protection," thing, and goes disabling his girlfriend's car, holding her prisoner, and bribing her sister to do the same, all so Bella won't see her friend. Coincidentally, Bella's friend is a very attractive, tall, muscular boy who's in love with her.
Frankly, even without the apparent primary motive being jealousy, this is abuse. As mentioned, the werewolves aren't actually all that dangerous, and without any severe threat level, Edward's extreme methods of protecting Bella are going way, way, way too far. Imagine if you had a boyfriend who was doing the same stuff in order to prevent you from going skydiving. Would it be acceptable? How would you react to his behaviour?
Bella doesn't like it, but she excuses it as being done out of love, and doesn't do a damn thing to stop it - she doesn't even try to put her foot down in regards to Edward, or not let him in for the night. She considers the latter for a second, but can't bear the thought of spending an entire night away from Edward if she can help it.
Then there is also the way he took her things and hid them in New Moon. He says this was for her own good, so she wouldn't be reminded of him and wangst about it. However, it's her stuff, not his, and he had absolutely no right to take it, whether it was for Bella's own good or not. This is another example of Edward being controlling about what's good for Bella, rather than letting her make her own choices.
23rd Nov 09
23rd Nov 09
It'd still be ridiculed and mocked either way - Hell, it'd probably get more hate if it was an animu/mango.
23rd Nov 09
24th Nov 09
24th Nov 09
If Bella was a man, no one would even know Twilight existed. So yes, the title of your review is absolutely correct.
10th Dec 09
Heh so true.
But who knows a vampire girl in love/lusting after a human boy might be the next black in a couple of decades. I liked the movie Inoccent blood and it has a female vampire in it.
11th Dec 09
Honestly? If Twilight were about a man with a borderline abusive stalker girlfriend? I would be all over that because that's freaking hot.
12th Dec 09
You need to read some mangas and animes...that happens a lot of them!
13th Dec 09
6th Feb 10
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9th Feb 10
Skipping the fact that Ron wasn't nearly as expreienced or as well informed as the older members of the order, what is the diffrence between Edwars'a actions and Hermione's? Both show pretty clear cases of abusing power, though it feels like you're defending one of them. That Edward changes his behavour a bit doesn't have much of an effect when you look at the overall picture; as far as I know, he never apologised properly, and mind you that Bella did want him to interfere when she was forced into that kiss; one of the few times that his help was explicitly needed, he didn't do anything. He seems to have grown out fo the worst, I'll give you that, bu that doesn't mean that he hasn't a long way to go.
11th Feb 10
I'm understanding both actions. Hermione's and Edward's in the context of the stories of course.
Bella didn't wanted him to intervene with her problems with Jacob and he didn't he just stated that if he ever kissed her again without her consent he will break his face personally. I personally think he should had said something when Bella forgave Jacob and gave him another chance, but Edward is and all or nothing kind of person once he decided that Bella was in control of her relationship with Jacob he totally stepped back and let her do things her own way. Make that what you like.
He grew out a lot through the books, IMO. Of course a lot of his issues with Bella's safety was because she was human. Look at his change when she was turned into a vampire. No more stalking or worrying and no more issues with her bad luck and danger magnet.
12th Feb 10
Just a few words.
1. Feminism is a very complex subject related to history and social speeches. We study them at university. I suggest you doing the same. At least go and read Wikipedia, would you?
2. Being a professional in the area of social speeches and literature, as well as massive culture, I can tell you Twilight can't be interpreted from that point of view. At least, not in the silly and childish way you do it. When you say "feminism" you're using the word as it is defined by common sense. I suggest you reading Gramsci to understand what I mean when I say "common sense". Well... Gramsci would be only a step to begin with.
3. Personally, I don't even understand why they argue so much about this whole series. Maybe because they have so many followers... but many other things do, and it doesn't mean they are the big deal. The whole thing would be WHY is that possible, being of such a low quality like they are. That's one of the issues we particulary study. And, I can tell you, there are many not extraordinary explanations. Not extraordinary AT ALL.
4. Sorry if my english isn't very good, it's not my mother tongue. There are many other things I would like to say but I'm afraid I won't say it in a proper way unless I use my mother tongue. Sorry again.
15th Mar 10
1.Who says I haven't studied feminism? I happen to be a college graduated, and I was an active feminist when I was in college and a award winning writer, in my mother tongue. There are plenty of feminists that love and defend twilight I suggest you to do the same and look around on the net for a feminists interpretation of the series, 2. Would you please explain me as a professional why my interpretation is childlish and silly and since you are so inclined to enlightme maybe tell me what Gramsci says is common sense given that according to you I'm wrong on my approach to it.3. What would be that not extraordinary explanation about why a series with such a low quality is so unnecessarily argue according to you? 4 if you can't express your opinion properly why would you express it improperly? English is not my mother tongue either but if you know enough to understand what it says here then you should know enough to reply to it. I use my dictionary when in doubt. So I suggest you that if you care so much about making sure I know how childlish and silly my views are to comment about it, you should care enough about getting a dictionary to do it, properly and at the needed lenght. Half a comment is not a comment at all.
17th Mar 10
(edited by: Yayoiyukino)
22nd Mar 10
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24th Mar 10
I'd rather not read this, but I've read enough. Twilight was targeted to teens. Can you imagine what would happend if girls ACTUALLY follwed Bella's foot steps?! If it was Yaoi, then YES it wouldnt be bashed so much because Yaoi is FANSERVICE!
21st Apr 10
And of course girls can't read to get fanservice? We are incapable of have fun on a fantasy world and not affect our little minds?
22nd Apr 10
Maybe Jacob and Edward need to hook up. Forget about Bella.
23rd Apr 10
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25th Apr 10
Ack, I apologize. It seems that tvtropes has killed my spacing. ;.;
25th Apr 10
0) Well at least a section of the hatedom claim that the only reason they hate TL is out of its bad writing so the outcry for them is justified as that. I donâ€™t deny that some readings of the text can find the unfortunate implications, but I disagree with the idea that is the only right way to read the text and failing to do so is a sign of stupidity or anti-feminism.
1) If you read the book and paid attention, Bella is the one that moves the plot along and the one that makes pretty much every choice that makes the books exist. The plot serves her and her wishes, and she is focused on the romance and the consequences of being a supernatural one because those are the guidelines of Romance Genre. You can consult the page about it here. TL is a Romance with supernatural/adventure elements , if you donâ€™t like Romance I would understand your problems with the work but you canâ€™t hate if for being a good example of what is supposed to be and for other people to like it.
2 and 3 ) If you read the books you would see that Edwardâ€™s fear of Bella not being strong enough to handle his world are proven right time and time again, she doesnâ€™t go to shock, she doesnâ€™t goes screaming when she founds out the truth, she doesnâ€™t stop pursuing a relationship with Edward, or stop pursuing a relationship with Jacob... If Bella was indeed Edwardâ€™s puppets we wouldnâ€™t have a saga at all. Edward is indeed physically stronger than Bella, but on other aspects Bella changes and improves him. Bella won plenty of the battles like leads do on those examples above.
The accusations of Mary Sue are mostly because the plots bends to her will on more than one occasion. Bella was never pursuing Edward out of him using his force or manipulation to make her, or because his father or any other male said so, or because she felt as a woman inferior without a man, she did it because she WANTED,because it pleased her, because Edward was everything she wanted to and it was about Edward and the Cullens, when she decided to let of everything she did it on her own free will, So no she one out of sheer stubbornness and desire to have Edward on her life. That is not winning out of stop screwing with your life is winning out of â€śI probe you that Iâ€™m stronger than you think, that I can handle myself no matter how much danger it is and that I know what I want and that is you as difficult is for you to believe itâ€ť
4 and 5) Las time I checked Manga/Anime has been available to westerns society for a while and we live on a world were people can meet, interact and make friends with people from Japan with no problems. No to mention that you are underestimating the medium, I have my fair share of nerds friends crazy in love with Lara Croft back on the day that the whole birth of the code for comic books was do to their â€śbad influenceâ€ť on our young ones. You should study the story of banning and moral guardians scare to see that everything is considered a bad influence on the young ones for the oldest generation, except people like me that remember that this is normal and only morons (or people raised by them) live their lives according to what a comic book/video game/TV/Romance novel say. And I think statistics say that TL didnâ€™t create those morons and that if not TL they would have taken their models out of Paris Hilton or an ad on a TV.
6) I have no problem with people reading the books and getting their own readings and being uncomfortable with the work, Godâ€™s know there are plenty of books I have issues with, what I have a problem with that in many other books we have had a loser hero (lead) that the perfect smart and kick ass heroine most protect and no one ever complains about the lack of equality, like I mentioned before the primetime is filled with loser fat husbands and clever skinny wives that can do everything right while the father figure is just a dumb guy that needs to make sure doesnâ€™t do anything stupid and she usually uses the protecting him from his own stupidity justification for her actions and no one ever sees this as wrong and is easier available that TL itself, given that for TL you should at least be able to read while on TV just watching is enough to get the hours of the same characters doing the same thing over and over again on every channel. Who knows maybe part of the popularity is that it actually shows a different type of man. And Edward and Bella both have their strengths and they compromise into what they want and in the end the book make clears that the point of this was the get them to the same place, equal both Bella became as strong and powerful as Edward and capable of protecting him and her family on the same way he protected her before, and that didnâ€™t turned him off her or broke the romance au contraire now that he can finally stop worrying for her and just enjoy her, he becomes even more attracted to her.
Donâ€™t apologize this page always do that, to me too if you want to continue this discussion I suggest the discussion page for TL.
26th Apr 10
This review was hilarious. Thanks for the laugh!
7th Jun 10
Hmm I wonder if Bella is such a complete idiot that Edward has to save her every time, then why doesn't he teach Bella how to take care of herself? Some sort of Character Development would probably make the story slightly more bearable.
16th Jun 10
Well he does teaches her once she is a vampire and can actually use her powers. The thing is that humans are just walking pizzas for vampires. They don't stand a chance. They can't kill them with anything and they can't protect each others with anything far from a nuclear bomb. Had you tried to carry one of those on a purse? They are too damn big!
17th Jun 10
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18th Jul 10
"Actually if this book was about a weak, passive stupid man, and a crazed stalker feamle vampire the books would get MORE bashing (if they actually took off) and the internet would mock the lead far more severely."
I doubt it, males usually call Edward weak and a wussy than anything and identify better off with Jacob because they consider him more manly and stronger.
"Check the book twilight rips off (Vampire Diaries) for a much better ordinary teen girl who doesn't know what to do with her life but has more than 2 brain cells"
Personal interpretation. Elena has made enough mistakes to call her judgement in question and the fact that she has to choose between a good vampire anda freaking murderer vampire really don't show her as the brighest of the teenager girl, also if Twilight were ripping off Vampire Diaries there would be more evidence than just teen girl in love with vampire (s), IMO.
"Err what? How is their relationship NOT abusive? Edward sabotages her car, watches her sleep at night, among countless other things, and his love for her is based on nothing but that she 'Smells good' WOW. Talk about a contentless relationship, there's no way ANY romance outside of fiction could take off on just that.
And, wow, the book is bashed because people are, as you imply, sexist? No. Twilight is bashed because it SUCKS. It's about a dimwit self insert teenage girl who's in "love" with the biggest God-sue ever, and is heralded as a convincing, heart warming Romance. Who's convinced? Only women who think abuse under the guise of 'protection' is love.
The only people who enjoy twilight, are people who haven't read a GOOD book. And I mean a book of the genre they like, not a 'classic' or something. "
Did you copy pasted this from all the others Twilight bashers? Because you have obviously never read the books, neither have a conversation with a twilight fan. Come back when you have done both things so we can actually have a decent conversation about it.
"Honestly, I think fewer people would bash the series if it wasn't portrayed as the Greatest Love of All. I would be all over the crazy relationship dynamic if S Meyer didn't try to forcefeed me words like 'Adonis' and 'perfection' when it comes to Edward."
Not sure about that. This is Bella's way of narrate it, people can believe her or not. And a lot of people are convinced that their relationship is the best thing ever specially at the begining, you can find all the flaws Edward has on the books is just that his flaws don't outshine his virtues from Bella (and many readers) POV. I do agree that most of us were tired of the overuse of the ways to describe how beautiful Edward was because it was unnecesary after a few paragraphs we already know how beautiful he was no need to blunt us with a hammer on the head with it. At least she toned it down on the other books and finally stoped at the last one.
27th Jul 10
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1st Aug 10
2nd Aug 10
"I should have presented this earlier, but no, guy's are not more forgiving of weak direcitonless guys. Just ask people what they think of Shinji of Evanglion."
Evangelion is very famous and loved, if this was true Shinji and Evangelion fans would be as hated as Twilight is and its not. The argument is about the whole treatment of hatedom to the work and its fans. If you check Evangelion main page and compared it to Twilight you will see the diference even though Shinji is hated people don't go out of their way to discredit the fandom and the work neither call it the reason they have no more faith on humanity. When I said more bashed I didn't implied bashed it at all I meant the intensity and the arguments, no to mention the people that critize it at least did watched the series while hatedom is pretty much working on things they heard and proudly say they couldn't even pass the first book. That is a diferent can of worms.
"Regardless of whether or not the story would be bashed more if Bella was a man, it would still be a horribly-written story. Too much telling but no showing, lack of research (seriously, all it takes is a Google search to know that Brazil has no west coast), Mary Sue characters, and the amount of abuse in the relationship make for a lousy romance book."
This is my main point there are plenty of books with the same problems and defects and even though the proportional rule says that the bigger the fanbase the bigger the hatedom but the way things had gone beyond hating to work to hating the fans and her creator make me think there is something more than just "the books are badly written thus the world is going to end" Some people had analized that deep down is a hate towards female orientated/fueled things given that their main target audience are females, is written by a female and its about feelings more than anything else, and has made a crap ton of money and became a phenomenon thus only crappy guy things that are written by men and fueled by men are allowed to be succesful. I mean Michael Bay is not good but he made a crap ton of money, James Bond books had been around for ages and is male wish fullfillment to the T and yet they don't get the amount of hate Twilight does...I think they might be onto something about the problem being females and feminine and not the crappy writing, per se. And before you tell me that some females hate Twilight as much as males, there are plenty of women that consider things that had been traditionally aimed to girls (pink, dresses, tears, feelings) being detrimental to feminism just because they have a only manly stuff are worth it mindset. And there are heterosexual twilight guys (specially among the latin america comunity) around too. I mean when was the last time we got a wildly succesful phenomenon almost exclusively fueled by women/girls? I think Beatle mania and in a smaller scale boybands and if you look at the bashing they got are simmilar and I would say Edward Cullen is our generation Rodolfo Valentino in that aspect.
"Elena isn't perfect, but regardless of wether YOU like her more than brain dead sue Swan, she gets fits your critia and is bashed A HELLUVA lot less than Bella Swan. So yeah bella is bashed due to bad writing and being incredbly passive and retarded."
First Vampire Diaries its not a Romance Genre series, second Elena its not living on a vampire world where humans are completely defenseless against vampires, third they are not as popular as Twilight and third the character has diferent choices given the universe than she lives in. Comparing her to Bella and Twilight doesn't make sense. I meant on a world where Edward was the human and Bella was the vampire that need to protects him with the same actions.
"If males bash the actually male love interest Edward, wouldn't they also at least equally bash the book if the genders were reversed or roles switched?"
Not really if Bella was the stereotypical Lara Croft clone, men would love her. But Edward would need to be less feminine for them to stop bashing the book. From what I had gathered, Edward is considered a wuss because he is a virgin, he is pretty, talks about his feelings, and is fascinated to do stuff with Bella with no hopes or needs for sex, has low self steem, and their activities are quiet things like reading and listening to music aside from the fact that he hangs out the most with another female Alice and lives on an equally gender balanced household) and its willing to let Bella choose to be with Jacob if that is what makes her happy with no prospects of hooking up with another woman. Jacob is the opposite, he is more forward towards sex, he is rougher, has a big ego and everything he does with Bella are manly activities (riding bikes, eating food she cooked...) he has a pack of bros to hang out to do man stuff with them (like hunting) and he cannot accept that Bella posibly could be happier with Edward than with him and spent a big amount of time in this mindset. The whole watching her sleep and taking the engine out and kidpnaping are usually mentioned but deep down most of them consider Jacob still being the underdog in spite of him doing things that can be considered at least as bad as Edward did (More often than not Jacob lied, manipulated, insulted and forced himself on Bella and didn't respected her feelings, choices and though he knew better than her). If they were honest about their dislike of the series they will at least equally hate both of them, but its not a coincidence Edward being the more bashed one and the more feminine too, while Jacob is the underdog and manlier one too, YMMV.
3rd Aug 10
4th Aug 10
(edited by: shiro_okami)
5th Aug 10
Because fantasy doesn't work that way; fantasy doesn't mean "do whatever the hell you want in a story." The idea is so hard to buy because it's stupid plain and simple; saying his stalking is okay because he's doing it to protect someone sounds much too much like someone getting smacked around because the person hitting them loves them and is doing it for their own good. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth for some.
5th Aug 10
(edited by: dragonfire5000)
9th Aug 10
9th Aug 10
(edited by: shiro_okami)
9th Aug 10
11th Aug 10
11th Aug 10
(edited by: dragonfire5000)
Bella isn't a strong female character, which is the standard these days. She's weak, annoying, and can't live without her man. It's 2010, right? Why are people even discussing this? Just admit it and move on.
11th Aug 10
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12th Aug 10
Also, this is driving me crazy - "Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella WERE a man".
13th Aug 10
"Also, this is driving me crazy - "Twilight wouldn't be so bashed if Bella WERE a man"
Oops sorry. English its not my first language and this part doesn't let me edit. Thanks for the correction.
"So if people DO complain about Edward then where does the double standard come from? Is it that they don't complain about him as much as Bella?"
Bella weakness its the problem Edward being wuss is not because he is phisically stronger the wuss problem is more because he does nothing when Jacob openly do things to keep him away from his girlfriend and to make both of them mad. The original point was about phisical strenght and overprotection.
"Personally, I could care less whether Bella is weak, strong, or whatever. But if a guy took Bella's place (with a girl taking Ed's place) and acted the same way she is described as doing so, I'd think the story was worse, and I don't think I'd be the only one (or at least only guy) who would think that way."
To use an example, take a look at how men like Xander and Joxer were portrayed around phisically/take charge stronger girls and tell me how many people complained about that. They were not the leads mind you but they indeed were the well intentioned but barely effective. You can see characters like Shia La befouf on Transformers that was as averages as Bella and got lucky to get the hot girl to notice him (and another one in the next movie) and see that if you change their gender they are pretty much Bella with another scenerio and even if Transformers is considered mindless entertainment and dumb given that is aimed at men/boys don't get the level of bashing Twilight gets. Its basic much the same wish fullfillment for both genders (being loved by the hottest one without having to be a superman/woman aka being yourself) but if the lead is female then its mercyless bashed.
"A large fanbase doesn't equal a good story;"
Never meant that just to say that Twilight is as big as Star Wars, Star Trek and some other fantasy fanbases.
"Mein Kampf was a bestseller and it was pretty much Hitler raving and ranting."
Apples and oranges Hitler wrote that book as figure of authority and to get the german to support his ideas and they responded to it not out of the literature value (not sure if is any good I actually haven't read it for obvious reasons)but because it tell them what they needed to hear in their time of crisis.
"Twilight gets bashed for having badly written characters, lack of research (a rich banker in the Great Depression and the "west coast" of Brazil; seriously, this kind of mistake is near inexcusable), a crappy story, and a farce of a romance. Other stories may have some sort of redeeming feature that gather less nitpicking; this series is bashed because it's badly written, plain and simple."
Disagree with this idea the book has its flaws, but it also has redeeming features as well. This is the nitpicking at work only mentioning the parts that are problematic and not recognizing the parts that are actually well done I mean if they are so lacking how come they get emotional strong reactions as love and hate neither or became worldwide phenomenoms on many diferent cultures and languages? something must had been done right don't you think?
"Meyer doesn't get that much Willing Suspension Of Disbelief with her so-called "scientific vampire" compared to science fiction because it's in the paranormal romance genre. The science was supposed to make the vampires seem more realistic; when the science she uses to make them seem more realisitic turns out to be bullshit science, it really kills her credibility as a writer."
The science behind the Midichlorians and/or Warp drives has as many problems as the science that makes vampire work...do we have a big bashing anti ST/SW movement like we have with TL? Don't you think that is at least peculiar? Suspension of disbelief is something very personal and again targed driven. I remember how much certain characters that come from my country on fiction end up being so unrepresentative of my countryfolk that I couldn't suspend disbelief that much but it didn't affected the other people or story at large so again. Personal bias its not a right justification for bashing, specially if you have proof that a lot of people have not the same problems with it.
19th Aug 10
"To use an example, take a look at how men like Xander and Joxer were portrayed around phisically/take charge stronger girls and tell me how many people complained about that. They were not the leads mind you but they indeed were the well intentioned but barely effective. You can see characters like Shia La Beouf on Transformers that was as averages as Bella and got lucky to get the hot girl to notice him (and another one in the next movie) and see that if you change their gender they are pretty much Bella with another scenerio and even if Transformers is considered mindless entertainment and dumb given that is aimed at men/boys don't get the level of bashing Twilight gets. Its basic much the same wish fullfillment for both genders (being loved by the hottest one without having to be a superman/woman aka being yourself) but if the lead is female then its mercyless bashed."
I don't know about other people, but your example doesn't work with me. I've never seen Buffy
, but in Joxer's case his character was SUPPOSED to be like that for comic relief, and his not being the lead does make a difference (he was only a recurring character, not in every episode). As for Transformers
, your reasoning makes sense, but I HATED
Shia's character in that movie so much that on a second viewing I found myself INCAPABLE
most of the movie of him making a fool of himself DESPITE THE HOTNESS THAT IS MEGAN FOX. THAT IDIOT MADE WATCHING MEGAN FOX UNENJOYABLE!!! UNFORGIVABLE!!!
*Ahem* But, anyway, Shia's character did break Willing Suspension Of Disbelief
. OK, maybe I don't bash it because of that, but that's not my personality, and the movies considered to be bad anyway.
"Bella weakness its the problem Edward being wuss is not because he is phisically stronger the wuss problem is more because he does nothing when Jacob openly do things to keep him away from his girlfriend and to make both of them mad. The original point was about phisical strenght and overprotection."
I don't understand your comment here (what does physical strength have to do with anything?), please explain better. (The bad grammer doesn't help, either.)
19th Aug 10
(edited by: shiro_okami)
"Apples and oranges Hitler wrote that book as figure of authority and to get the german to support his ideas and they responded to it not out of the literature value (not sure if is any good I actually haven't read it for obvious reasons)but because it tell them what they needed to hear in their time of crisis."
You do know that Hitler wrote that while imprisoned, right? It works as an example because it goes to show that a bestseller is merely a book that sold many copies; quantity does not equal quality when it comes to how good a work of writing is.
"Disagree with this idea the book has its flaws, but it also has redeeming features as well. This is the nitpicking at work only mentioning the parts that are problematic and not recognizing the parts that are actually well done I mean if they are so lacking how come they get emotional strong reactions as love and hate neither or became worldwide phenomenoms on many diferent cultures and languages? something must had been done right don't you think? "
It's not nitpicking; lack of research and horrible character development are legitimate problems in writing that can cripple a story. I have yet to see anything that these books have done well other than give certain people masturbation fuel, which does not mean that the books are a well-written story. Fanfiction smut can do the same thing, you know.
"The science behind the Midichlorians and/or Warp drives has as many problems as the science that makes vampire work...do we have a big bashing anti ST/SW movement like we have with TL? Don't you think that is at least peculiar?"
...You don't know much about the Star Wars
fandom, do you? The midichlorians thing is one of many issues that cause a bonfire in that fandom. A Nd
the reason there doesn't seem to be big bashing ST/SW movements? Those stories actually had well-written characters and a semblance of a plot. Twilight doesn't have those.
"Suspension of disbelief is something very personal and again targed driven. I remember how much certain characters that come from my country on fiction end up being so unrepresentative of my countryfolk that I couldn't suspend disbelief that much but it didn't affected the other people or story at large so again. Personal bias its not a right justification for bashing, specially if you have proof that a lot of people have not the same problems with it."
You've been shrieking "Personal! Personal!" like a parrot on most of your arguments. Let me put it this way for you: when it comes to debating the quality of a story, the "personal reading" card you so like to pull only goes so far. I have already stated other reasons why it's a bad story; personal readings do not excuse things like a "west coast of Brazil." The romance is unconvincing and the personal card doesn't work here either; are you going to pull the same card to justify a rapist who seriously thought that the victim liked it? Finally, the plot is virtually nonexistant and takes a back seat to Edward and Bella spouting teenage angst bullshit and staring at each other. The plot should never have to take a backseat in a good story.
And don't give me the excuse that "the romance is the plot." There is nothing in the story that convinces me there is a romance (this opinion, according to you, is protected by the 'personal reading'). Joking aside, there is no indication that the two characters have any sort of chemistry between them, talking about likes and dislikes, helping each other get over their character flaws, etc.
19th Aug 10
(edited by: dragonfire5000)
19th Aug 10
19th Aug 10
Bella is not a normal teenage girl.. She is a selfish sociopath who are willing to let hundreds of people die just so she can have what she wants (case in point: New Moon and Eclipse, they warned her that there would be a war if she got turned into a vampire, but she did it anyway because she wanted to look pretty or something) in addition to being whiny, ineffectual, and useless. Twilight sucks. Hard. And if anyone can relate to this sociopath, then you have some serious problems. I just don't get how she is supposed to be relateable. Even my girlfriend hates her (she watches the movies anyway), hell, even my 11 year old sister is mature enough to recognize how stupid these movies are and how selfish the protagonist is.
31st Aug 10
9th Oct 10
27th Oct 10
27th Oct 10
(edited by: fdydf)
30th Dec 10
17th Dec 11
You do have a point here. If Bella were a man there would not be nearly as much bashing. Either a) the book would be mostly unknown, or b) most bashers could be turned away by accusing them of homophobia.
3rd Aug 12
A teenager who is willing to cut herself off from her family, disregard her education, and attempt suicide over someone she just met is NOT romantic, nor is she anywhere close to being independent.
A true feminist would realize that the man she has the hots for is not the only thing worth living for. She would have a personality completely independent to her relationship.
Bella doesn't. Her entire existence is based on her interactions with one guy. Even when he's not there, she still has no other purpose at all but to love him. Outside of Ed, the only interest she is shown as having developed is reading. And that was something that happened before she even met him.
Your comments about abusive relationships are counter to what statistics show. The abuser in the relationship is not actually about hurting the person, but controlling them. And while she does make a few stands, few abusive relationships start out so controlling. It's usually some show of domination here and there and can sometimes be written off as a dominant personality and not an unhealthy relationship.
It is true that there are quite a few that do end up into hardcore abuse fairly quickly, the majority seem to take a few years to really take hold.
Red flags of Edward's control problems:
1. He doesn't not make requests, he makes demands. Sure Bella shrugs off a few here and there, but again, the relationship is still fresh. And remember, the problem with abusive relationships isn't about defiance. It's about the inability to stay away from the person.
2. He has to know where she is at all times. He watches her while she's sleeping without her knowledge. He has associates track her without her knowledge. Claims its for her safety. Guess how many controlling boyfriends/girlfriends have used this excuse before.
3. Has trouble trusting others around her. Part of wanting to know where your SO is if you're an abuser is your inability to control the situation if you're not there. They are paranoid that the other person in the relationship will leave. The have an emotional dependency on this other person that is so over powering, they cannot think logically. Note Edward's jealousy of her friendship with Jacob.
4. His shows of strength/power/domination to impress her. He drives at an incredibly high rate of speed even after knowing full well that it scares Bella out of her mind. Also note his constant referrals to his self control around her. He's afraid that he can lose it at any time. He constantly reminds her that he can kill her before she realizes there's danger. Now just imagine how many people have heard things like that before?
5. His insistence that she needs his protection. Again, a huge red flag. Abusers attempt to keep their victims under control by convincing them that the victim could not live without them. They create the same dependence they themselves feel. Was he wrong? Yep. He wouldn't be the first abusive boyfriend to be wrong about it.
6. This is the scariest of all. He's so obsessed with controlling her that he's upset that he can't read her every single thought. A guy who wants a healthy relationship with a girl wants to discover that. Gradually getting to know each other through ups and downs is what brings couples closer together. Knowing everything right this second not only takes away any of those things that surprise couples well into their golden age and helps to keep them interested, it gives him more ammo to use to control her. Note how it's not just Bella he has controlling tendencies with. He orders everyone around. He's the leader of the vampire family. When one of the family members he's known every thought of for a very long time disappears, he doesn't trust that she's doing something for the group. He writes it off as her trying to save herself. In his mind, not letting him have control of the entire situation is essentially betrayal.
Now, on to Bella. This is a girl whose only just met a guy. It's already been established that she cares deeply about her family and thinks her dad actually needs her. What does she do as soon as her boyfriend says she can never see him again? Leave. Someone she cares for and knows is lonely. She leaves him.
Before she met Edward and started a relationship with him, she seemed fairly into reading. She was into her family, and she was even starting to get into school. When they start dating? No interest in anything at all but him. Period. He leaves to protect her? She attempts suicide.
She gives up her family, her education, the friends that she was just starting to make all for one guy. She stops showing interest in anything and everything else.
She may be showing a bit of independence here and there, but, again, the abuse in relationships is very subtle in the beginning.
I've read your defense of all of this. You're right. The story is built up in such away as to justify some of this. But to pass it off as romance is chilling.
The implications would be the same if the genders were reversed. Perhaps even worse. People are supportive of emotionally and physically battered women and are very willing to help them out. However, the way current societal roles are, there is very, very little to be found for a battered man.
"Traditional roles" have nothing to do with my assessment. I wholly support stay-at-home mothers. The general assumption, though, is that they do have interests that are separate from their husbands.
Bella doesn't have that. Once she falls for Edward, that is her only motivation. Her thought process is completely consumed by her relationship with him. Any kind of action she takes is based on it. Thus, her only reason to exist is for him. Screw everyone who cared about her up until that point. She's got a boyfriend.
3rd Aug 12
3rd Aug 12
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