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Reviews Comments: The Worst Death Battle: Yang VS Tifa Death Battle episode/issue review by Elmo 3000

Yang VS Tifa is not the worst Death Battle because they got it wrong, but because they might have gotten it wrong on purpose. It\'s the only episode you can watch, knowing nothing about either franchise, in which the result still doesn\'t make sense.

Let\'s get the boring maths out of the way - apologies to you all - Tifa holds the advantage in strength, skill, experience, and intelligence. However, Yang has the edge in defense (well, maybe, since they never actually calculate Tifa\'s defense,) so Tifa can\'t beat her. Yang got knocked through a pillar, which means she can withstand 1,400 tons of force, and Tifa can only dish out 150. Except for her Premium Heart gauntlets (x7.6) and they get stronger as she takes damage (x4) and there\'s her limit-breaks (x2.625) and if she gets a crit (x2) and... um... that\'s about 24,000. And this isn\'t some obscure trivia; this is all stuff they cover in Tifa\'s run-down in the episode, so it\'s not like they didn\'t know about it.

It becomes quite obvious at the end that they\'re making excuses. They claim \'We couldn\'t take Tifa\'s limit-breaks into account, because the strength she shows in them is not shown outside of them!\' over footage of Tifa lifting and throwing a 2,000+ ton dragon. Brushing over how stupid that is, even if she can\'t use that strength outside of limit-breaks... why can\'t she use that strength in her limit-breaks? No explanation is ever given for this.

The fight itself - decent animation aside - feels like an advert. It starts with a Call Back to a trailer for RWBY, the battle ends when one of Yang\'s hairs falls out (haha, RWBY inside joke) and after Tifa is killed, the last shot is a banner unfurling, advertising an upcoming tournament in Season 3 of RWBY. It\'s very RWBY-oriented is what I\'m saying, and that\'s kind of a problem.

Y\'see... Rooster Teeth, the company that own RWBY and Yang, merged with ScrewAttack and Death Battle either before or during the production of this episode. Meaning that the people who owned the RWBY character also owned the show that decided whether or not the RWBY character won.

I\'m not a big conspiracy guy and I don\'t want to tell you \'This is 100% why Yang won,\' but I would ask you to consider it possible. If Death Battle was purchased by Marvel Comics, and the next fight had Quicksilver illogically beating The Flash, that wouldn\'t guarantee any shady business, but the possibility would cross your mind, right?

And to be honest, part of why I want to believe this is that despite this negative review, I really do like Death Battle. Ben, Chad, Torrian and the research team are all awesome, and I find it easier to believe they were strong-armed into something than I do to believe that they all spontaneously became really shit at what they have been shown to be really good at.

But at least Rooster Teeth never again used Executive Meddling to adver- what\'s that?

The next episode is just a fight between two Red VS Blue characters?

Oh.

Comments

  • Elmo3000
  • 25th Jul 16
That\'s two reviews of episodes I like and two reviews of episodes I don\'t like; I think I\'ll call it a day for Death Battle because any more would be overdoing it. So if you think this was stupid and whiny and I take the show too seriously (it is, it is, and I do) then at least you can take solace knowing that I\'m finished now.
  • SpectralTime
  • 25th Jul 16
...Also, they screwed up the pillar thing, using the load-bearing potential of the pillar instead of the considerably-less force needed to smash through it shortwise.

But otherwise, yeah, pretty much. Other fights, you might quibble about the premises, but not necessarily the results based on them. (Bayonetta vs. Dante, for instance.) This one was just... eh.
  • Knightofbalance
  • 3rd Aug 16
Hey, Carolina and the Meta was awesome! Someone even admitted to being wrong about the episode. ON THE INTERNET!
  • Elmo3000
  • 4th Aug 16
I watched Carolina VS The Meta and... eh. I mean, the animation is pretty good, and the result sounds like it makes sense, but as someone who doesn\'t watch Red VS Blue, I had incredibly little interest in the fight.

And if it\'s two obscure characters fighting, that\'s one thing, but two obscure characters from a series owned by the people who bought Death Battle just makes the whole thing reek of cheap forced advertising. Death Battle didn\'t make Carolina VS The Meta because they thought it was entertaining or interesting, they did it because a new season of Red VS Blue is out so Rooster Teeth said they had to advertise it. And that\'s enough for me to sort-of dislike it on principle.
  • Knightofbalance
  • 5th Aug 16
Uh dude, it was a collaboration. They have all sorts of people coming in and doing work, including Screw Attack. And Rooster Teeth didn't buy Screw Attack, Fullscreen did. And they kind of cramped them together so it's not their fault.

And why do you need to know about Red Vs Blue to enjoy it? There are hardly any in gags and even those can be laughed because they give context, like Caboose in a Tank can be funny in the sense that Caboose is an idiot and not just his history and Grif getting abused was funny all the way back in Blood Gluch, before they had experience or decent equipment.

And not knowing the characters isn't really a reason to dislike a death battle. I knew jackshit about Dante and Bayonette, Guts and Nightmare, Gamora and Godzilla, Yang and Tifa ect. and I liked those battles. Hell, Carolina and the Meta at least have distinct traits from one another wheres the ones I listed are copies of one or the other with only a few differences which makes it basically a "Link Vs. Dark Link" Scenario, which is only interesting if YOU'RE battling.

And Rv B isn't that obscure, not as much as RWBY is. They're one of the longest running web series so quite a few people know about them.

And of course they were promoting Red Vs. Blue, that's kind of what Death Battle does: promote media. Why else would they give info on the backstories of the characters when that hardly amounts to anything in the battle?
  • Wryte
  • 6th Aug 16
I watched Carolina VS The Meta and... eh. I mean, the animation is pretty good, and the result sounds like it makes sense, but as someone who doesn't watch Red VS Blue, I had incredibly little interest in the fight.

And as someone who has watched Red vs Blue, I had incredibly little interest in the fight because it was exactly like every other fight I've ever watched in that series. It didn't even feel like I was watching a death battle, it was like just watching another RVB fight scene with lower quality models. Carolina and the Meta aren't even interesting enough characters to make me care that they never fought each other in the actual series; Carolina's just a replacement Tex (who, let's face it, wasn't interesting either aside from the early novelty of being a girl), and the Meta isn't even an actual character. The analysis part with Wiz and Boomstick interacting directly with the Reds and Blues was fun, but the fight itself was a snore.

And of course they were promoting Red Vs. Blue, that's kind of what Death Battle does: promote media. Why else would they give info on the backstories of the characters when that hardly amounts to anything in the battle?

A) Death Battle is not a promotional platform. It promotes media by proxy, not as its intended purpose. No one pays them to feature their characters in the fights. They give the backstories on the characters as part of their analysis because the whole point of the show is to examine the character in-depth to determine who would win, and yes, they often do come into the battles. Mewtwo vs Shadow, just for a recent example, was decided when Mewtwo was able to exploit Shadow's background in being easily mind-wiped to do just that.

B) Featuring fighters owned by the same company that now owns them becomes icky then, because it does turn Death Battle into a promotional tool instead of the fan work it usually is. When it features one of Rooster Teeth's characters against someone else, it casts a shadow on the fight if the RT character wins, because it doesn't feel like an objective analysis when the winner belongs to the show's corporate masters. And when both fighters belong to RT, it just becomes a naked advertisement. Either way, it leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

But back to the battle this review is actually about, my problem time and again with this fight is that the fight was determined by power levels, and they limited Tifa's, but not Yang's.

The comparison I always come back to is, appropriately enough, Link vs Cloud. In both fights, the FF 7 character was limited to a single weapon, piece of armor, and accessory, and only two basic materia, but in Link vs Cloud, Link was also limited in his arsenal. Cloud didn't have the Ultima Weapon, but Link didn't have the Fierce Deity's Mask. Cloud didn't have healing materia, but Link didn't have potions. Two materia, only a fraction of possible items; no summons, no bottle fairies; etc. Yang vs Tifa, on the other hand, only limited Tifa; Yang had no arbitrary limits placed on her at all. As a more minor nitpick: giving Cloud a Ribbon for his accessory at least made some sense, since Link does use status effects, but giving one to Tifa was a total waste of a slot because Yang doesn't have anything it would actually serve a purpose against.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, Link vs Cloud wasn't decided by the characters' relative power levels; it was decided by strategy. Link won that battle by virtue of his tactical, problem-solving approach to combat allowing him to beat Cloud's "attack, attack, attack" brute force approach. Yang vs Tifa came down to Tifa not having the power to overwhelm Yang's semblance, and not having the defense to survive the counterattack, when both of those factors are directly tied to her materia loadout, in which they gave her two of the worst materia in the game, made even more egregious by the fact that the weapon and armor they gave her has a whopping 14 materia slots between them. Even without getting into any of the more exploitable combos like Added Effect->Destruct, just filling out those remaining 12 slots with common materia could have totally flipped the script. Could Tifa have overpowered Yang's Semblance if she had more than two of the weakest attack materia in the game? Could she have survived the counter with a restore and a barrier materia? Character loadout matters a lot more when the outcome is based on power levels than when it comes down to combat philosophies.
  • Knightofbalance
  • 6th Aug 16
Just found proof from Screw Attack that Rooster Teeth does NOT own them: https://youtu.be/TsKnVYshRKs?t=56s

If they were bought out, they would admit it in the video. If you wanna blame someone, blame Fullscreen.
  • Knightofbalance
  • 6th Aug 16
I got nothing else so I quit after this.
  • marcellX
  • 6th Aug 16
Why else would they give info on the backstories of the characters when that hardly amounts to anything in the battle?

  • To explain their reasonings later on about who won?
  • Because the show is based on deadliest warrior who do that because of the reason above
  • So you care about the characters because not everyone knows them
  • To give some info so people are able to make a more concious descicion when guessing a winner (kinda why they some times show the analysis first in separate videos)

Do I need go on?
  • Knightofbalance
  • 7th Aug 16
Dude, part of my point was they give you the backstories so you know who they are and care about them. I was just because you don\'t know characters in Death Battle, it isn\'t an excuse to say you don\'t care about them. SO you kind of proved my point.
  • marcellX
  • 7th Aug 16
What the hell are you talking about proving your point? you said that DB gives backstories to \"promote\" the characters, even when as far as to ask why else would they other than that, so I gave you a neat little list there. And yes, not knowing who the fighters are is a good reason to not care/be interested in the match. I haven\'t watched Red vs. Blue so so far I\'m not really interested in it, might be by hearing the pre-analysis.
  • Elmo3000
  • 7th Aug 16
I love you both, please don\'t fight.

Erm, I think that Wryte is right (tee hee) but to be honest, I think the biggest problem with this battle is that without Wryte\'s right writing (I\'ll stop now) the battle is still not right.

I\'m not sure what point it makes by highlighting how ill-informed I am about things, but I have never played a Final Fantasy game in my life. Ever. And I haven\'t watched RWBY either. And yet, going solely on the information present in the Death Battle, the result still looks plainly wrong. The best thing I can compare it to is Gaara VS Toph. I understand that too is a widely-contested result, but I can say that as someone who knows nothing about Naruto or Avatar, if I were to judge the battle solely on the information present in the Death Battle, it looks okay. Yang VS Tifa fails even at that. It is the only Death Battle to be debunked by Death Battle.

I think that even Ben and Chad thought the result was wrong; the explanation is verging on laughably pathetic in regards Tifa\'s strength in limit-breaks. \'Admittedly, Tifa has shown great strength. However, she only ever shows this strength on occasions when this strength is being shown! She does NOT show this strength on the occasions when this strength is NOT being shown. Therefore, we were unable to take it into consideration.\'

From the same people who accurately calculated the weight of the entire human race, this is rock bottom in terms of research.
  • MiinU
  • 9th Aug 16
@Wryte: I'd have to quibble about your assessment of the 'Link vs. Cloud' matchup.

For starers, why would Cloud settle for the Ultima Weapon when the First Tsurugi is superior, given it has far greater utility? Plus, it's been his default weapon from Advent Children onwards.

Second, the Fierce Deity would hardly be a threat to Cloud. All it does is give Link an attack boost, he doesn't become any faster than normal and he still takes the same amount of damage that he normally does. Cloud's dealt with worse.

Also, Cloud does not simply "attack, attack, attack," his showings in AC/ACC is proof enough of that.

  • He designed a sword comprised of 6 interlocking blades that can be separated and reconfigured as needed; allowing him to adapt to any situation on the fly (like during the battle in the Forgotten City, for example).
  • He also knows when to draw upon his Mako (i.e. his Limit Breaks), which gives him another significant tactical advantage.
  • Cloud also has insane reflexes and spatial awareness, such as when he rescued Denzel and Tifa. He launched three of the blades (i.e. 'Strike Raid') to intercept the shadow creepers that'd been about to kill Denzel, while weaving through falling debris, cleaved through several building sections, and grabbed Tifa in time to catch his blades as they returned to his sword.

That's just three of the examples from AC, but it proves that he plans his actions, rather than simply attacking as ScrewAttack claimed he does.

Aside from that, I agree that they nerfed him big time. Whereas they stacked the odds heavily in Link's favor by using a composite form of him, gave him roughly half his arsenal, and god moded him by making him fast enough to keep up with Cloud.

Canonically, Cloud would speed blitz Link, due to his SOLDIER enhancements. He's been shown capable of bullet timing casually (battle in the Forgotten City, vs. Sephiroth, etc.) and can dodge automatic gunfire from multiple directions.

By contrast, Link has been pinned down by arrows being fired from only a single direction (as seen in an early E3 trailer for Twilight Princess.) Which is why he had to crouch and take cover behind his shield. And contrary to what ScrewAttack alleged, the Pegus Boots don't give him nearly enough of a boost to put him on the same level as Cloud's speed.

Cloud got robbed. Big time.
  • MiinU
  • 9th Aug 16
edited previous comment, since links are no longer supported.
  • Elmo3000
  • 9th Aug 16
As much as I recognize that it would make me a gigantic hypocrite to criticize people for criticizing Death Battle when that\'s exactly what I\'m doing, I would sort of like to ask that we stay on the topic of the battle I\'m reviewing?

Because I am genuinely interested to read these things that you have to say - Miin U, you probably just changed my mind in regards to the outcome of a battle I didn\'t think was wrong until you explained it like that - but if we open the door to \'generally complaining about Death Battles\' then this review will very quickly succumb to chaos. And not just because sooner or later, I will take the opportunity to say \'Okay, so while we\'re on the subject, here\'s a whole bunch of stuff they missed about Sam Fisher!\'
  • SpectralTime
  • 9th Aug 16
Okay. Disengaging attempts to argue with the Miister ...Is it okay to bring up the point about them miscalculating how pillars work again, further degrading Yang\'s defense?

Yeah, I went into this fight completely unfamiliar with RWBY, and came out about the same. The one cogent defense so far was the Knight arguing that Rooster doesn\'t own Screw. I dunno if it\'s true or not, and it seems to rely on an argument from silence, but... Thoughts?
  • MiinU
  • 9th Aug 16
@Elmo3000: Fair point.

On topic: I didn't watch the Yang vs. Tifa battle because I already knew how that one was gonna turn out, given how badly they cheated Cloud. Reading through the comments section of the vid confirmed my suspicions, which is why I still haven't watched it and likely never will.

There's no way she should've survived a shot from Tifa (least of all, Final Heaven), when Neo was able to drop her with only a few light hits. And throughout season 3 Yang repeatedly got shown up during the Vale Tournament by people who also lack Tifa's physical strength.

Yet, they called Tifa "a glass cannon" when AC showed she's taken more than Yang ever has (including two direct blasts from Bahamut SIN) and was only stunned briefly. Moments laer, she was back on her feet and continued to fight.

It isn't complaining so much as pointing out flaws in their research/reasoning.
  • willyolio
  • 6th Feb 17
This is one episode that was so slanted, they ignored their own research to force a win. Out of all the matchups, this is among the dumbest, for this reason.

They deliberately gave Tifa her premium heart, and mention that it is 7.6x stronger than leather gloves. They just ignore that completely later.

They specifically gave her the Minerva Band, and they tell you that it absorbs ice attacks. Then in the fight she gets hurt by an ice attack.

They go through the trouble of listing it, talking about it in detail, animating it, and then completely ignoring it.

Another thing they ignored: Tifa's limit break. The slots have 'hit', 'miss', or 'Yeah!' which mean a guaranteed critical. They even show in the animation that she gets all Yeah!'s. And then she misses half her attacks. Seriously? If you wanted her to miss, at least animate it showing she got a 'Miss' on her slots, it's a built-in mechanic. Later on they also make the excuse "she shows crazy powerful strength, but only during her limit breaks, so we won't count that..." You just showed her using her limit break, you idiots!

Critical research failure right here. This isn't even forgetting some equipment or move, this is ignoring stuff they already chose because I guess at the last minute they realized they still had to hand the win to their biased character. If the data doesn't point to the conclusion you want, throw away the data. This isn't just bad research, it's straight up dishonesty.
  • marcellX
  • 7th Feb 17
@willyolio Probably as an aversion to the Cloud vs Link debacle, instead of being unfair with the set up, they ignore it's aplication.

Overall this was just a rather stupid idea. By releasing it when the death of Monty Oum was still fresh in the audience's minds, and having her go up against someone that, as argued here, she should had lost to. She wins and is understandibly seen by many to be business favoritism, but if she lost it would had been seen as rather disrespecful of the late creator.
  • leoryff
  • 15th Mar 17
The main issue I\'ve seen with every argument concerning Tifa\'s strength is that no one, ever, addresses how inconsistent it is.

If Tifa was really strong enough to throw monsters over her shoulder on a regular basis, enemies like the un-enhanced Turks and other humans would prove no threat in the cutscenes.

And the Limit Break is a whole other can of worms. How does work? Is it chi? Magic? Does it scale to enemy or affect them all the same? And in the vein of that last question, how can she do 2000+ damage to a random encounter rock monster, but only 200 to a completely human Turk one battle later?

The results of this fight aren\'t wrong, it\'s just that this matchup should never have happened at all. Turn based game characters are nearly impossible to analyze without falling into guesswork. Tifa shouldn\'t have been fighting at all but fans have been clamoring for for FF characters since the show started, so who\'s to blame when the results fall out of Tifa\'s favor?
  • willyolio
  • 15th Mar 17
Where did you get the idea that the Turks are just regular humans? They are above most SOLDIE Rs, who are magically enhanced humans. They are Shinra's black ops assassination squad in a world full of magic and monsters.
  • MiinU
  • 15th Mar 17
If Tifa was really strong enough to throw monsters over her shoulder on a regular basis, enemies like the un-enhanced Turks and other humans would prove no threat in the cutscenes.

Simple: she holds back, 'cuz has no reason to go all-out against the Turks. She isn't trying to kill them. Whereas with monsters, she's free to attack without restraint.


(this part isn't directed at anyone, it's just my opinion of the matchup)

Instead of judging Tifa (or any FF VII character) by gameplay mechanics, they should've used her showings in Advent Children, which is a canonical part of The Compilation. In the movie, she said they were all two years out of practice since they hadn't had any reason to fight during that time. Yet, she was able to go toe-to-toe with one of Sephiroth's remnants (Loz).

ScrewAttack also claimed Tifa was a glass cannon, despite AC/ACC showing her taking worse abuse than Yang; including two blasts from Bahamut SIN, from which Tifa recovered in less than a minute and continued to fight.

By contrast, Yang took a couple of light shots from Neo and got KO'd by being smacked into the ceiling. Then throughout season 3, Yang repeatedly got her ass handed to her by people who aren't nearly as strong, or resilient, as Tifa. In the comments section of the video, the RWBY fandom called the FF fandom salty for calling ScrewAttack on their no limit fallacy, regarding how Yang's semblance works. Seasons three and four confirmed the fandom's suspicion. Yang's semblance has limits.

Her own father flat-out said as much and said her semblance amounted to "a tantrum". Then warned her about what could happen if the enemy was resilient enough to withstand it, 'til Yang burnt herself out. Which is likely what would happen if she tried to fight Tifa, based on their canonical showings.

If Neo and the others could KO Yang with only light hits, there's no way in hell she'd be able to survive a hit from Tifa and remain standing. People said it was a bullshit call on ScrewAttack's part and hindsight has proven it.
  • Elmo3000
  • 16th Mar 17
Hi leoryf, nice to meet\'cha. Every time I see that more people have commented on one of my awful reviews I\'m always worried it\'s the \'Oh my God, why do you care so much, what\'s wrong you?\' that I so richly deserve.

Um, I do agree that Tifa\'s power level is probably inconsistent, but it\'s not really worth addressing because, um... everyone\'s power level is inconsistent. Every Death Battle character ever. (Well, probably not ever, but you know.) Mario is strong enough to pick up and throw a fortress away in Super Mario World but never shows that strength again. Scrooge Mc Duck can move at almost the speed of sound but never does this in any of his movies or cartoons or games, ever. Donkey Kong survived an explosion that sent him into outer space but can be killed if a beaver walks into him.

Death Battle takes, or claims to take, both characters at their absolute best, so if Tifa picked up and threw a dragon, and later she had trouble with some human soldiers, then, hey, they would still point out that she picked up and threw that dragon. Or at least, they would, if this hadn\'t been a terrible episode.
  • leoryff
  • 18th Mar 17
@willyolio The Turks are RANKED above SOLIDER. The only enhanced humans under Shinra are in SOLDIER. The lore explains that members of SOLDIER are enhanced with Mako, giving their eyes a certain glow. The members of the Turks never show this trait because they are regular humans. So unless there\'s some other form of enhancement in FF 7, one that doesn\'t warp the user\'s body beyond recognition, the Turks are not enhanced.

@Miin U \"Because she holds back\"? That makes zero sense. Not only are they enemy combatants, she doesn\'t \"hold back\" against any of the other human foes. From the M Ps to the crewmen on the submarine. Some of which are scripted encounters with Tifa leading the party, so they can\'t be avoided. And that\'s not even bringing up that slap fight with Scarlet.

Also, Yang didn\'t \"Tank\" anything in Advent Children. She dealt with ONE blast from Bahamut Sin that wan\'t aimed at her. The shockwave knocked her unconscious, but didn\'t manage to kill anyone else in that entire courtyard they were in, even the un-shielded kids. The best we actually see of her durability is when her spine wasn\'t snapped when Loz punched her through the church wall.

Yes, Yang got knocked out when she fought Neo. But it wasn\'t because her aura, her defense, was broken. We see what happens when a RWBY character loses their aura, a rippling pattern flows over their body, and after THAT, they are defenseless. We didn\'t see that either of the times Yang was knocked out, meaning her aura was never broken. So either she never had her aura up, or something else was going on.

Yang\'s semblance has a very obvious limit: \"However much damage her aura can absorb before it breaks\". We don\'t have a solid number on what that upper limit is, but no one has seriously claimed that it is \"unlimited\". However this is a moot point, since Yang\'s aura actually can \"tank\" things Tifa cannot. Explosions, long falls, bullets. Not even Cloud and Zack, the two strongest people in FF 7, are bulletproof or survive falls from terminal velocity. And Tifa is no where near their level.

@Elmo 3000 I bring up the Tifa strength inconsistencies for a number of reasons. For one, several \"analyses\" I\'ve seen of Tifa\'s strength claim she\'s nearly as strong as base level Goku. If she really was that strong, handcuffs, steel doors and most of the other physical barriers in the game would be a non-issue.

For another, Tifa\'s spikes in strength are different from Scrooges or Mario\'s. Tifa\'s highest feats of strength are all highly conditional. Like Luthor and his kryptonite steroid, or Sonic and his Super form, Tifa has only displayed that much power under very distinct circumstances, in her case using her limit break.

You\'ll recall that Wiz and Boomstick DO mention Tifa has picked up and dropped enormous monsters, but they also mention she only did so during her Limit Breaks. It wasn\'t a random power up or wellspring of strength cliche. This is a consistent pattern, with zero evidence to indicate otherwise.

And this is especially an issue when that very super strength is even more inconsistent. Say she\'s fighting a giant monster, Diamond Weapon in fact: her limit break activates, she picks up the monster, monster receives damage. Now say she\'s fighting a smaller, but still house sized robot, like the Proud Clod: her limit break activates, she picks up the robot, robot receives damage.

Here is the issue. The force on the giant monster is not the same with the robot. The Diamond Weapon, which towers over the Midgard Plate, is much heavier than the Proud Clod, which is 3-5 stories tall, at most. If Tifa is really that strong every time she performs her Limit Breaks, then she should do exceptionally more damage to the robot than she did to Dia weapon. The same with every other enemy she uses it on.

That is the major difference between the inconsistencies of Tifa\'s strength and character\'s like Donkey Kong\'s. That is the issue I have with everyone claiming Tifa would win outright. ((Well, aside from the trolls that scream \"KNIGHT OF THE ROUND! KNIGHT OF THE ROUND!\" but those are trolls. What can you do?) No one can explain them properly, and it\'s an issue nearly all turn based game characters face.

As I said before, this matchup never should have happened, but it did. People are still clamoring for fights from Final Fantasy characters and Chrono Cross and Dragon Quest, even though there\'s no way to verify their abilities properly. So who\'s to blame when the results go the way that they do?

  • MiinU
  • 19th Mar 17
@leoryff: The Turks are only above SOLDIER in terms of rank with Shinra Corp., not in terms of ability. SOLDIER is Shinra's elite and outclass the Turks big time.

Not even Cloud and Zack, the two strongest people in FF7, are bulletproof or survive falls from terminal velocity.

First, Zack isn't even on Cloud's level, consindering he got owned by a hologram of Sephiroth in only a matter of seconds. Which is why Angeal had to stop the training simulation, because Zack was in danger. And when he actually tried to fight Sepiroth at the Mako 5 reactor, Zack went down just as easily.

Whereas Cloud is confirmed by Zack (in ACC) to have defeated Sephiroth twice in single combat. A feat which Angeal and Gensis couldn't accomplish with their abilities combined. [[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KxjGn30PDA link]], despite Sepiroth toying with them. But once Sepiroth started to become serious, Angeal halted the simulation again.

Therefore, Cloud and Sephiroth are the strongest two in FF7.
Second, yes Cloud has survived falls from terminal velocity, such as when he Climb Hazzarded Bahamut SIN. Look at the height Cloud fell from, without injury, and stuck the landing. And during his rematch with Sephiroth, they were duelling on slabs of faling concrete and both survived that as well.

Also Yang didn't "tank" anything in Advent Children.

That's because Yang wasn't in ACC, so how could she? But I'm sure you meant Tifa, and yes she did. Quick recap:

  • Loz spun Tifa around by her leg and smacked into a church pew (face first) twice. The first hit sends the pew flying towards the ceiling of the cathedral, the second hit sent it across the hall; causing it to shatter against the wall on impacr. Yet, the closeup of Tifa's face showed she was fine, right before she pushes off the wall and dug a trench along the floor with Loz's head.
  • Bahamut SIN shot in her direction twice and Tifa tanked both blasts. The first one knocked her out of midair and the stunned her. The othef knocked her unconscious. Yet, there was no sign of injury and she was back on her feet less than a minute later.

Yes, Yang got knocked out when she fought Neo

...and by the other girl during the Vytal Tournament, and she was insta-pwnd by Adam, none of whom possess Tifa's strength. So if light hits can KO her, how would survive one of Tifa's punches?

It'd be like seeing some get KO'd by a couple of jabs from Batgirl, yet somehow tank hits from Wonder Woman.
  • willyolio
  • 19th Mar 17
There is absolutely no reason to believe the Turks are merely normal people. In Before Crisis, they take on Ravens, who are basically SOLDIER clones (some are actually SOLDIE Rs who have been personality-wiped) and are able to hold their own. They also beat Fuhito, and Jade WEAPON.

You'll recall that Wiz and Boomstick DO mention Tifa has picked up and dropped enormous monsters, but they also mention she only did so during her Limit Breaks.

Hey, guess what happens in the middle of the death battle?
  • Elmo3000
  • 19th Mar 17
I get what you\'re saying Leo but it is still so incredibly not a Tifa-specific thing to have inconsistent feats of strength. \'If Tifa is so strong, why doesn\'t she break through every door in the game?\' If Scrooge can row a boat like Quicksilver, why isn\'t the DuckTales video game over in half a second? If Tracer can react in 1/1000th of a second then why does she ever get hit in any of her animated shorts? If Deathstroke has a healing factor then why is he still half-blind?

Fiction is dumb and fictional characters are, barring a few, always inconsistent, so Death Battle measure them at their best and that\'s that. Except when they don\'t for seemingly no reason in fights against characters who belong to a company owned by the same parent company who own Death Battle and when you say it like that it all seems a bit dodgy.

And the limit-breaks thing is still dumb because, as pointed out so succinctly yet eloquently by willyolio, there\'s no point in them saying \'We can\'t count this display of strength, it only took place during a limit-break!\' if they\'re then going to have Tifa use her god damn limit-breaks anyway.
  • leoryff
  • 19th Mar 17
Why did I bother making a thought out, structured argument when people are just gonna ignore the relevant parts? Oh well, here we go again.

@Miin U First off, you\'re missing the point. Cloud and Zack are both stronger than Tifa, and neither of them are bullet proof. (And guess who\'s wearing shotguns on her arms?) And please stop taking things out of context. Yang\'s loss against Neo, as I pointed out before, didn\'t involve a breaking of her aura, and her loss against Adam is not an argument at all, since we\'ve seen him store up enough kinetic energy to disintegrate metal. And there was no loss in the Vytal festival, otherwise how would Yang hove progressed to the final round?

@willyolio Hey, guess what I explained right in the middle of all that! Got anything relevant to add?

@Elmo 3000 Please see previous point. And if you\'re gonna argue the \"Roosterteeh/Screwattack merge bias\" angle, then I have no argument for that. Either you can take it in good faith that they didn\'t have bias, or you can continue to call them liars. It\'s circumstantial evidence at best, but in that case you might as well call bias on every Death Battle that ever occurred.
  • willyolio
  • 19th Mar 17
Why, yes. The point of Death Battles is to use the strongest showing of each character, not the weakest. If we're going to interpret Tifa's limit break as inherently being weaker against smaller opponents, then why (mis)interpret Yang's semblance as being something that can take damage without limits, instead of something that either fails to mitigate damage entirely, or fails against regular kicks (against Neo)?

Taking the strongest possible interpretation of one character vs the weakest possible interpretation of another character is obvious bias. If you're choosing to use the strongest possible interpretation of anyone, then you need to do it consistently for both parties. Don't pick and choose.

Lastly, you have to be trying really hard to cover your eyes to not see the Rooster Teeth bias... they literally put in an advertisement for RWBY at the end of the battle. How could they have fit that in if the RWBY character was lying dead on the ground? Haha.
  • marcellX
  • 19th Mar 17
Tifa's highest feats of strength are all highly conditional. Like Luthor and his kryptonite steroid, or Sonic and his Super form, Tifa has only displayed that much power under very distinct circumstances, in her case using her limit break.

I don't get the whole issue with limit breaks, specially coming from FF 7, even more Final Heaven. Final Heaven was a fighting technique that she learned from a manual her teacher left her. Their in game explanation is that it's basicaly a rage gauge. We saw several limit breaks in Advent Children, seamlessly used in battle, including things such as sled fang, blade beam and onmislash, and yes, even Tifa's, who are for the most part, after all, fighting moves.

but still house sized robot, like the Proud Clod: her limit break activates, she picks up the robot, robot receives damage.

Wasn't Proud Clod a robot made to fight WEAPO Ns?

People are still clamoring for fights from Final Fantasy characters and Chrono Cross and Dragon Quest, even though there's no way to verify their abilities properly. So who's to blame when the results go the way that they do?

Death Battle still. This is a show about fictional characters fighting. Their first battle included a video game character, and inconsistency issues aren't only relegated to JRP Gs. You can spam deadly (as descrived or shown in the story) attacks in fighting games with very reduced effects (Akuma's SGS) or survive even the most brutal attacks (MK and X-Ray attacks) and be defeated, knocked out or killed, much easier in story. Kratos can fight giant creatures, titans and Hercules, but has trouble lifting 8ft gates; Sonic is the fastest thing alive but can't catch Robotnik; Dante can't defeat Lady with a single hit despite her powers of just her being a weapons expert, etc. etc. (plus the examples Elmo 3000 pointed out) so Willioio's point still stands, they say they use the contestants strongest interpretation, which, based on non-gameplay examples, still show her to be able to dish and receive heave damage.
  • MiinU
  • 19th Mar 17
@leoryff: Yang's loss to Neo didn't have to involve her aura being broken. The point is: it happened and it didn't take much for Neo to do it.

As for Yang getting her clock cleaned during the Vytal Tournament, she was getting frustrated, 'cuz Neon was too fast for her and she was smacking Yang around. Yang only won due to luck. You can see it for yourself from 6:24-10:13.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5uFH7gIClw

ScrewAttack played up Yang's semblance as though it's an instant win for her, yet Yang was using it against Neon and couldn't touch her. If she hadn't tripped at the end, Yang never would have connected. Which was basically her dad's point about her over-relying on it and what could happen if her opponent outlasted her.

Lastly, I never said Tifa was bulletproof. But simply having bullets wouldn't be enough to secure a win for Yang. Tifa has dodged shots before. She was fast enough to keep up with Loz, despite being two years out of practice. Which is why he teleported to finally end the match.
  • leoryff
  • 22nd Mar 17
No one\'s managed to debunk a point yet. Does that mean I\'m winning?

@willyolio If you honestly believe that Screwattack gave Yang the win over such a petty reason, then I have nothing else to say. Without proof it\'s a conspiracy theory at best, and fan wank at worst.

@marcellX There\'s a trope for that. Gameplayand Story Segregation. The issue is brought up in an earlier comment.

@Miin U By that logic, Tony Stark should have lost because bullets can hurt him without his suit. As everyone seems to have fun pointing out, this is a battle between two characters at their (canon) best.

No one has ever said it would be an instant win, only that it, along with her better durability, would tip it the scales most in her favor.

And while I STILL can\'t find any footage of Tifa dodging bullets (unless you are using game mechanics) but it wouldn\'t matter much with two shotgun gauntlets in a close quarters fist fight.
  • marcellX
  • 22nd Mar 17
No one's managed to debunk a point yet. Does that mean I'm winning?

Everyone has, which makes you an outright liar, not to mention you're the one constantly ignoring points and just replying to one small section of the replies. It's kinda sad really.

willyolio talks about how they say they'll take each characters' strongest interpretation and make an argument for them not doing that, you instead chose to just comment on compiracy theories, clearly doging the questions. I talked about how you were wrong in saying that limit breaks are just a coincidental power up, you just reponded to the story and gameplay segregation, which even then is a rather hypocritical response given your arguments. Miin U even gave you evidence with links, which you made no comments about.
  • willyolio
  • 22nd Mar 17
Clearly leroyff will ignore any discussion he can't address, so there's no point in going further. I think all of us level-headed folk in the discussion already agree this was a very biased battle.

I mean, I said there was an advertisement for RWBY put into the death battle, and his reply is "there's no evidence of anything!" He's just a professional denier.
  • leoryff
  • 23rd Mar 17
@marcellX @willyolio I was gonna give it a couple of days so everyone could respond, but if you\'re gonna just insult me out in the open, I might as well respond right away.

The \"Yang won because of merger\" is a conspiracy theory. There was an ad RWBY volume 3 at the end of the video? Very decisive. Next you will tell me Samus only won because the site is called Screwattack. Or that Superman won because it\'s an American based group. It\'s a conspiracy theory, and there is no proof beyond finger pointing. This is compounded on by the fact that Volume 3 of RWBY was postponed by the death of Monty Oum. Death Battle\'s third season\'s matchups and schedule would have been in the works long before his death, so at worst it\'s a mere coincidence. Any use of that as an argument is fan wanking at it\'s finest.

I ignore Minn U\'s \"video evidence\" because it does nothing to address any of my points. Neon Katt is not Tifa, so using her completely different fighting style as a comparison makes no sense. And the point is moot anyway. After Yang calmed down, she proceeded to solo both Neon AND her partner Flynt. The only \"luck\" involved was that Neon tripped, saving Yang the hassle of chasing the Fragile Speedster around and beating her up the old fashioned way.

I already told Marcell that the limit break issues are brought up in an earlier comment. So sue me for not wanting to retype to whole issue because one guy was too lazy to look, but here it is broken down nice and neat.

The arguments on Tifa\'s max power is based solely on her limit breaks. But the results and displays of her limit breaks are so inconsistent, everything that can be said about how they work is speculation. Using them to claim Tifa can punch with thousands of tons of force regularly is not only a massive leap of logic, it contradicts parts of both the gameplay AND the story.

As an aside, willy: Claiming I am ignoring points while failing to mention WHAT I\'m ignoring comes off as pretty shallow. At least Marcell had the decency to point thing out.

So, would someone like to offer an actual argument or would you like to try and insult me some more?
  • marcellX
  • 23rd Mar 17
...what the f...!? you know what, sure, whatever floats your boat, you won or whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
  • MiinU
  • 23rd Mar 17
Neon Katt is not Tifa, so using her completely different fighting style as a comparison makes no sense.

Except that it does. I'll show you:

  • Yang couldn't keep up with Neon, because she was too fast for her. So would Tifa. Rewatch her fight with Loz, then compare Tifa's speed to Neon's and you'll notice Tifa was moving much faster. I'll link to that too in case you haven't seen it, or in case you've forgotten (@1:31-1:48):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k70IWHiXl18

  • Tifa's opening punch made it seem as if she teleported across the chapel. Then when she punched Loz against the wall, notice she was moving fast enough to bound off the column then the wall. Loz backflips twice to try to create space between them, yet Tifa caught up and was already on him, then performs Beat Rush. That's a 5-hit attack sequence, yet we only see 3, because she did it that fast.

You seeing the point now? Tifa may not have rollerblades, but she doesn't need 'em. Yang gets frustrated when she can't hit anything. If she couldn't keep up with Neon, or Neo, neither of whom have Tifa's type of speed, then how would she stand a chance against Tifa?

she proceeded to solo Neon AND her partner Flynt

No, she didn't. She sill needed help from Weiss, who sacrificed herself to give Yang an opening on Flynt. Obleck even noted the sacrifice play.
  • marcellX
  • 23rd Mar 17
You seeing the point now?

You still believe that matters to him/her?
  • Elmo3000
  • 23rd Mar 17
Let\'s all go to YouTube and look up \'Why can\'t we be friends?\' by WAR.

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