YMMV The Seven Deadly Sins Discussion

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Elfkaiser
Topic
08:51:24 PM Aug 2nd 2016
edited by Elfkaiser
Been having this debate with troper Dawn Velocity on the subject of Meliodas calling baby Elizabeth "His Woman". Dawn Velocity's argument is that we don't know if Meliodas knows Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation. I present evidence/recap that I believe will give credence to the idea that he must know Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation thus justifying his "My Woman" statement.

  • Chapter 11: Meliodas is there when Liz died in Danafor 16 years ago.
  • Chapter 57: Meliodas starts groping Liz in the same manner he did when he reunited with Elizabeth in Chapter 1.
  • Volume 14 extra pages: It's been noticed by the other Sins during their time together that Meliodas has never been interested in any kind of woman at all or acted like a pervert prior to the their separation. After they got reunited, they noticed him being this way with Elizabeth.
  • Chapter 124: The scene which shows Meliodas being there when Liz died is shown again. This time it shows who killed her.
  • Chapter 130
    • Link 1: A young Elizabeth got hurt trying to save the Sins. Meliodas almost went berserk because of this.
    • Link 2 and 3: Meliodas reliving the tragedy and getting angry in a training session that uses his memories. He blows up Danafor out of anger.
    • Link 4: Meliodas mentions he needs to become stronger to for what he has to protect now.
  • Chapter 137:
    • Link 1 and Link 2: Zaneli specifically states the reason Meliodas is protective of Elizabeth is because she is Liz's reincarnation.
  • Chapter 181
    • Link 1: Elizabeth diving into Meliodas' memories showing the exact moment he blew up Danafor. It follows the exact moment when Liz Elizabeth's previous incarnation died.
    • Link 2: Meliodas coming out of the destruction he caused and carrying baby Elizabeth.
  • Chapter 182
    • Link 1 and 2: The infamous scene where Meliodas is protective of baby Elizabeth and calls her "His Woman". Somehow according to Dawn Velocity, this does not show he knows that Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation.

Additionally:

  • Chapter 98 extra: Hawk is implied to the reincarnation of Wandle, Meliodas' parrot. Might be worth mentioning since this might be related to the reincarnation business in the series.
  • Chapter 100
    • Link 1 and 2: Hawk comes back to life after an otherwise fatal attack. Might be worth mentioning for the same reasons above.
  • Chapter 164: Meliodas mentions that Elizabeth converted the Demon Army long ago all by herself. Since this did not happen in the present, it's likely she did it in a previous life. This means that Meliodas knows something.
  • Chapter 187: The Demon King mentions that Meliodas became the way he is currently because of "that woman". This seems to imply Elizabeth's distant incarnation from 3,000 years ago.
DawnVelocity
03:44:44 PM Aug 3rd 2016
edited by DawnVelocity
"Might be worth mentioning" happens way too often in this discussion post. As does "imply" and "seem" and "might be related".

That is the heart of the matter that all of these chapter links are failing to see. You cannot know for certain that Meliodas knew Baby!Elizabeth was Liz's reincarnation. You can make a reasonable guess, sure, but all of them are easily wiped over with the simple fact that there's too many unknowns.

Even if Meliodas did subconciously realize the connection, it wouldn't mean he actually knew of it. And some would say it was pushing his relationship with Liz onto Elizabeth, reincarnation or not.

The simple fact of the matter is, until Nakaba comes out and says "Meliodas knew all along" (even though that doesn't make Meliodas any less of a pedophile), don't add that detail. Leave it off. Because the exact opposite can be argued the same way, and unless you're going to put THAT part of it in there as well, the former has no business being added.

I take particular issue with your little detail of "somehow, according to Dawn Velocity, this doesn't mean Meliodas knew". Um. It doesn't. It just means he thought of her as Liz. It doesn't mean he actually knew about it. Kindly keep your jabs to yourself.
Elfkaiser
07:02:28 PM Aug 3rd 2016
edited by Elfkaiser
Really you can't see the massive flaw in your argument even when presented with evidence.

Meliodas still clearly protective of his lover who just moments ago died and reincarnated, lashed out at Zaratras and Baltra, who tried to take her from him and get him medical attention, saying "DON'T YOU DARE LAY YOUR HANDS ON MY WOMAN!!!"

You've been saying that the "still clearly protective of his lover who just moments ago died and reincarnated" part above is factually wrong on the argument that Nakaba hasn't point blankly stated that Meliodas knows even though Nakaba has point blankly stated why Meliodas is protective.

It's literally been revealed that Meliodas is protective of Elizabeth because she is Liz's reincarnation.

Meliodas was protective of baby Elizabeth and even called her his woman. He was literally acting in a way that he knows that this baby is Liz's reincarnation. If he doesn't know this then what other reason could he possibly be acting this way? How could he be protective of baby Elizabeth like this and not know Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation, when the reason stated why he is protective of Elizabeth is because she is Liz's reincarnation?

Really ask yourself this question.

What we know of what happened regarding Danafor as shown in the links I've provided is as follows:

  1. Fraudrin attacked Danafor and killed Liz.
  2. Meliodas was there when Liz died.
  3. Meliodas got angry and in his rage against Fraudrin destroyed Danafor leaving behind a massive crater.
  4. Meliodas carried Liz's reincarnation baby Elizabeth immediately after the destruction he caused.
  5. Meliodas was protective of baby Elizabeth and called her his woman.

That was literally what happened as revealed in past chapters. Liz literally died before Meliodas' eyes prior to him destroying Danafor and he literally carried her reincarnation after he destroyed Danafor. How can Meliodas not know Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation when he was literally there when Liz died and reincarnated based on what's been revealed?

There's something called Show, Don't Tell and Nakaba has shown more than enough for it to be correct to say that Meliodas knows that Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation.

  1. From the very beginning from literally chapter 1, Meliodas has been overly familiar with and protective of Elizabeth.
  2. His fellow Sins noted that they've never seen Meliodas interested in any woman prior to their separation. It's only after that they've been reunited and joined by Elizabeth that they notice him acting this way and it's only towards Elizabeth.
  3. Meliodas is extremely protective of Elizabeth so much that his powers were sealed when a 6 year old Elizabeth got hurt else he'll go berserk. It was done to prevent what happened after Liz died.

In addition, there have been hints that Meliodas and Elizabeth's relationship maybe beyond just Liz as I've posted in the links of the "additionally" section. Meliodas referred to a past event involving Elizabeth that has literally not happened in the present story timeline or possibly in Liz's life. Meliodas pretty much revealed that he knows that Elizabeth is a reincarnation.

You really can't argue that Meliodas doesn't know on the basis that it's not stated when it has been shown throughout the series.

If you're going that route though, please provide evidence that could possibly support the idea that Meliodas doesn't know other than just saying "We don't know" and "Nakaba has not outright stated it". I've done the research for my arguments and provided references to actual chapters, please do likewise.

Edit:

You say unknowns but what unknowns are you referring to that would validate your argument.

We don't know the full event of what happened but we know enough parts of it to give more than a reasonable context to certain actions.

You say Meliodas maybe pushing his relationship with Liz unto Elizabeth, reincarnation or not. Meliodas didn't give a straight answer to this but other evidence show it's not just projection. They show he pretty much knows.

You say, "It just means he thought of her as Liz. It doesn't mean he actually knew about it." He was literally there when it happened.

Edit:

It's really more plausible based on given revelations to say that he knows, than say that he doesn't based on a reason that really seems more of a WMG than a fact at this point of the series. If it's some other reason than him knowing, where could one interpret that.

Cain asked Meliodas if Meliodas was projecting Liz unto Elizabeth and got no answer. Even if Meliodas were to answer yes that only answers the question of Meliodas projecting. It could still be argued that he's projecting on the basis that he knows exactly that Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation.

I mean Cain was the same guy who asked Meliodas upon reuniting with him after 16 years if he was Meliodas' son.
DawnVelocity
09:12:28 PM Aug 3rd 2016
edited by DawnVelocity
Cain is also the same guy who immediately believed Meliodas (who DID in fact destroy Danafor) when Meliodas professed his innocence. Meliodas at that point being a criminal wanted nation-wide and already having been enlisted as a criminal soldier.

You want the unknowns? Here's a good one. What's important to note is that we have no physical instance of reincarnation. As far as we know, nothing happened to make Meliodas think baby Elizabeth was Liz. Maybe if there were a flash of light, or Liz's ghost hovering over the baby? I might buy it. But we go from Liz dying to Meliodas holding a baby and declaring it his woman. Oh sure, the proof is there—sixteen years later! But with no actual visible instance of reincarnation, Meliodas has no more way of knowing immediately after the fact what he may or may not believe, than we do.

At any rate, this discussion is over your edit. Even disregarding whether he knew or not, that edit was pointless and only served to make Meliodas look less like a pedophile over his pedophilic actions. It doesn't matter who he was protective over or why. He decided an infant girl was his woman. Please leave the entry as is, it doesn't need any defending or devil's-advocating or mediating.

Let me correct you on Show, Don't Tell: Nakaba has utterly failed in it. We have been told Meliodas and Elizabeth are close and romance material, but we have seen nothing of a relationship grow between them beyond Meliodas molesting her and Elizabeth being entirely too grateful for his help. We are told Elizabeth is the reincarnation of Liz, but we have not been presented a visible instance of it. We are told Elizabeth is like Liz, but have been shown that Liz was a different personality altogether and only physical looks are consistent between them. That is not showing. That is telling.

As discussion is not leading us to an agreement, please consider this discussion brought to a halt unless someone else decides to comment on it, and until they do, please do not re-add the entry.
Elfkaiser
11:00:39 PM Aug 3rd 2016
edited by Elfkaiser
We have confirmed reincarnation when Zaneli stated that Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation. This was stated before the chapter that revealed Meliodas called baby Elizabeth his woman.

We have seen what happened when Hawk was hit with an otherwise fatal attack. We don't know what happened but it leads some credence to what may have happened with Liz.

Fraudin attacked Danafor and killed Liz. Meliodas was there. She reincarnated/ Meliodas destroyed Danafor. Meliodas came out of the disaster zone he created with baby Elizabeth.

Are you saying that because we don't see the reincarnation, we must doubt that Meliodas knows it happened. He was there in the epicenter when it happened.

His motivation to protect Elizabeth is because she is Liz's reincarnation. It was stated outright. If he doesn't know that Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation then would he protect her. Are you really entertaining the idea that Meliodas found a random baby in a battlezone that his lover died, decided she was his dead lover without knowing for sure, and got lucky because she really was her reincarnation?

The edit gave context as to why Meliodas called baby Elizabeth. You are clearly motivated to condemn this instance based on your Unfortunate Implications edits, Flame Bait review, and our PM discussions together to a point that giving some context to what some would find squicky in order to make it more neutral is out of a question.

Edit:

We have instances wherein Elizabeth states she feels nostalgic being around Meliodas aka an obvious Reincarnation Romance confirmed by that chapter with Zaneli. We were given hints that maybe Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation before the reveal.

You say that Nakaba failed Show, Don't Tell yet you kept wanting outright statements about whether Meliodas knows to accept Meliodas knows rather accept those instances that show that he knows something.

Edit:

I readded the edit because there was no consensus between us. I modified the line originally to make it more neutral. You kept taking out what can be considered giving context based on manga chapters to explain the scene more in question. You kept taking it partly on an assumption that you have not provided support as in chapters for and clearly partly on your bias on certain aspects in the series.
TrueShadow1
11:23:04 PM Aug 3rd 2016
edited by TrueShadow1
Well for me, Meliodas most definitely knows Elizabeth is Liz's reincarnation. And that Liz is also someone else's reincarnation. And that someone else is someone else's reincarnation. All the way until the original Elizabeth.

The most glaring hint is when Mel said something about Elizabeth converting an entire army of demon 3000 years ago. Neither Liz or Elizabeth could be alive at that point, so it must be the original goddess apostle. And since Mel associated her with Ellie, he must know there's some reincarnation thingie going on.

The only argument against Mel knowing is "Nakaba hasn't confirmed it outright", which requires ignoring dozens of hints he threw around.

It's simple application of Occam's Razor. "Mel knows" is the simpler and more plausible answer than "Mel doesn't know and is in denial and just projecting Liz into Elizabeth".

Anyway, regarding Dawn Velocity's comment on how "his reason doesn't matter", yes it does. It provides more context to the situation, which is never a bad thing.

Addition:

I don't rember the exact chapter, but didn't Mel release Liz when she was an enemy spy when they first met? That, too, implies Mel knows Liz is special.
Elfkaiser
11:44:48 PM Aug 3rd 2016
Chapter 57 - Meliodas releases Liz at the objection of his fellow knights.
Larkmarn
06:43:46 AM Aug 4th 2016
This is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much discussion for a really obvious thing. Meliodas knows. Honestly, the closest we can claim to him not knowing is that he doesn't know for sure, and just believed he knew... which, since he's, you know, right, is effectively knowing.
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