YMMV RWBY Discussion

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Karxrida
Topic
04:46:10 PM May 12th 2016
I think it would be best to leave anything about Shane's letter off of the page. His claims are Flame Bait by nature.
Shaoken
05:53:46 AM May 13th 2016
Agreed, at the moment they are unverified as one person has said they are true, another has disputed part of them. All they would do is cause more grief.
WhoNeedsAMango
07:32:23 PM May 22nd 2016
Fuck, sorry. I just read this after putting it on. I'll remove it now.
DAN004
Topic
08:32:35 PM Apr 6th 2016
One entry under Alternate Character Interpretation
  • Roman's reaction to Neo being swept off the airship really paints his death in the Grimm-infested sky in a new context. Since the Grimm are attracted to fear, panic, and other negative emotions, he may have been attacked simply because he was that worried about Neo.

I won't argue that he might have some worry towards Neo, but it's rather clear the Griffon only comes to eat him when he was fired up at Ruby.

So?
Wyldchyld
05:00:34 PM Apr 7th 2016
It was discussed on the RWBY thread. It was troped, but was clearly alternative character interpretation and didn't belong on the page it had been put on. We discussed it on the thread and while I can't say anyone was particularly happy with the interpretation, it was agreed that it was clearly someone's Alternative Character Interpretation of Roman. Since we all agreed it used that trope correctly, the consensus was to place it on the YMMV page under that trope.

It doesn't matter whether you disagree with the interpretation of the character (I disagree with it myself), the YMMV page records opinions rather than facts.
Wyldchyld
Topic
03:33:35 PM Mar 18th 2016
Counterpart Comparison examples brought here to find out if they're misuse. The trope mentions this is a comparison between new characters and old characters. However, these are all characters who were introduced together at the beginning of the show as they entered into a new school and year group. That seems to be outside the remit of this trope.

  • Counterpart Comparison: The members of Team JNPR have quite a few individual parallels to Team RWBY:
    • In personality:
      • Both teams have an awkward leader with lots of potential and fond of Indy Ploy (Ruby/Jaune). Both are capable strategists in their own right.
      • A famous fighter well-known outside the school (Weiss/Pyrrha)
      • A quiet Stoic with ninja-like fighting style (Blake/Ren)
      • A Boisterous Bruiser Genki Girl whose Semblances allow them to draw strength from being attacked. (Yang/Nora)
    • In combat styles:
    • There's also some between RWBY and the villains, CRME:
      • A red-clad leader who uses weaponry she designs herself (Ruby/Cinder).
      • A member associated with Dust clad mostly in white who fights with a one-handed weapon, and additionally has tensions with Faunus (Weiss/Torchwick).
      • A dual-wielding street rat with kusari-gama like weaponry that steals and fights evasively (Blake/Emerald). Both also have a marked penchant for sarcasm.
      • A casually violent member with armed extremities who fights mostly with martial arts and bullets launched from those extremities (Yang/Mercury).
DAN004
04:48:58 AM Mar 24th 2016
Agree, comparison like the one above is technically misuse. However, I think there's a better fitting trope out there.

I'm thinking of F Oil.
Wyldchyld
03:19:08 PM Mar 24th 2016
Foil has a story/plot reason for two characters to have contrasts that are supposed to emphasise certain things about each character. It's not for any two characters that just happen to have differences that the audience can contrast.
Wyldchyld
Topic
03:21:34 PM Mar 18th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Harsher in Hindsight examples brought here because they need context adding. However, putting the Zero Context Examples tagging on them messed up the indentation, so I've brought them here instead (see bold for why I think they're ZCE):

  • Ruby's theme becomes a lot darker after Red Like Roses Part II. "It's your blood that's red like roses."What theme? How are the lyrics being interpreted? How does the theme become darker?
  • It's minor, and already fairly harsh when it happens, but Velvet's bullying at the hands of Cardin may become even worse with the implication in Volume 2 Episode 8 that she's actually an older student. — How does Velvet's older age make the bullying worse than it already is?

BlackSunNocturne
10:02:12 AM Mar 20th 2016
  • Ruby's theme is supposed to be a duet between a mother and daughter. The "It's your blood that's red like roses." is the daughter finding her mother's body.
  • Because normally only people in the same peer group are bullied. An upperclassman being bullied by an underclassman, without the underclassman having any repercussions, is kind of fucked up.
Wyldchyld
01:05:19 PM Mar 25th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
  • That's not Ruby's theme. That's the subject matter of the song. Learning that the blood is the subject might make the refrain from the first song darker, but was the first song's refrain interpreted darkly to begin with?
  • If we're talking about real life, that's not true at all. It's very common for bullying to cross age-groups and peer-groups. Velvet's age relative to Cardin makes the situation no more or less fucked up than it already was.
Larkmarn
Topic
06:24:04 AM Mar 17th 2016
This entry has been repeatedly pulled from Narm:
  • The grimm-dragon's entrance, though technically well-animated, is extremely underwhelming due to the cinematography and unimpressive wheeze of a screech.

Narm is about something being unintentionally humorous, not underwhelming. It may very well be an example of Narm, but as-written it is not.
Wyldchyld
Topic
12:44:31 PM Mar 11th 2016
There seems to be Hilarious in Hindsight misuse going on in some of these examples, and others are Zero Context Examples (they don't explain how the original event was funny to be made funnier by the later event).

  • Hilarious in Hindsight:
    • Months before Lie Ren was revealed, a prominent fan character was created. His identifying color is green, he is stoic (albeit far more so than Ren), and wields dual bladed pistols. During an interview, the crew mentioned that they have seen him and that these sort of things just happen.
    • Some (possibly) less informed fans assumed it was a Japanese animated series and demanded that Crunchyroll make the Japanese version available. Well, it seems Japan likes this series too, and a Japanese fan dub of the series is underway.
    • Nora being a Gender Swap homage to Thor becomes this after Marvel made Thor a woman.
    • Yang's shotgun gauntlets have become somewhat amusing now that the character of Jacqui Briggs has been introduced to Mortal Kombat X, using weaponized gauntlets with "Shotgun" as a possible variation.
    • Neo was often compared to Nui of Kill la Kill. Then it was revealed that Yang will share Ryuko's VA in the Japanese dub.
    • This fanart shows Neo and the Elegant Gothic Lolita that appeared in the Volume 3 trailer facing each other. The pic becomes more funny when it's revealed the Goth girl is none other than Neo herself.
    • Yang breaking Mercury's leg in "Fall" is made a little bit more amusing when one considers how way back in Volume 1 Nora commented that she'd break Cardin's legs if he harassed Jaune.
    • This picture, putting Ruby in the Ace Attorney setting does take a much more hilarious turn after the aforementioned spoiler.
    • Twofold for Laura Bailey. First, this isn't the first time she voiced a character named Amber. Second, she once voiced Serrah Farron, who wields a sword that can turn into a bow in the sequel. It's the same kind of weapon Cinder uses to defeat Amber.
    • This fanart of a genderswapped Yang looks almost spot-on for Yang's father, Taiyang. The image was uploaded on 8/17/2013, almost two years before Taiyang's design was revealed.
Wyldchyld
01:00:40 PM Mar 11th 2016
I've split this into two posts, to make it clear what the original entry is and what I think is misuse or ZCE.

  1. The original fan art needs to have been initially funny for Ren's later similarity to make it even more funny. All the creators did was confirm it was the coincidence everyone had already guessed it was. Suggestion: Remove.
  2. Completely meta, rather than affecting anything inside the show itself. However, the original issue (fans demanding the "original" Japanese-language version) was widely teased when it first happened, so the current official Japanese dub does genuinely make the fan laugh harder at the original misunderstanding. Suggestion: Keep.
  3. Was Nora being a gender-swap of Thor originally funny when first revealed? Suggestion: Zero-Context Example, needs more information.
  4. Yang's shotgun gauntlets are a weapon. What is funny about that for the later event to make the original fact even funnier? Suggestion: Remove.
  5. How is Neo being compared to Nui funny? These seems to be a meta, example, but there isn't enough information to confirm whether it's the trope or misuse. Suggestion: Zero-Context Example, needs more information or be removed.
  6. This seems to be suggesting that it's the fanart that's the subject of the trope, not Neo or the show. Suggestion: Remove.
  7. This seems like the reverse of the trope (later event makes original event even funnier than it already was), as it appears to be "earlier event makes later event funnier than it should be". Suggestion: Remove.
  8. This seems to be suggesting the fanart is the subject of the trope, not the show itself. Suggestion: Remove.
  9. Another trope reversal - Amber's voice actor was chosen after Cinder's sword-to-bow trick had already been revealed, so it's another example of "earlier event makes later event funnier than it should be, but only if you've seen the other show being referenced". Suggestion: Remove.
  10. Another case of a fanart being made hilarious after a canon event has occurred, this again appears to be about the fanart and not the show. Suggestion: Remove.
Wyldchyld
03:10:25 PM Mar 18th 2016
It's been a week, so I've put back the following onto the YMMV page, as per my above suggestions.

BlackSunNocturne
02:07:00 PM Mar 20th 2016
edited by BlackSunNocturne
The problem is that most of these go by the strictest definition of Hilarious in Hindsight "Something is made funny or more funny thanks to later events."

Most of the ones you've decided to remove all fall under the definition of Hilarious in Hindsight. Because remember: Humor is subjective, and that's what the Your Mileage May Vary page is for. Mostly subjective things. Just because you don't find it funny, doesn't mean other people do.
Wyldchyld
06:16:14 PM Mar 24th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Actually, most of the ones I'm removing are based on things that are meta to the work - how is finding fan art funny relevant to the work YMMV page? For example, the first entry:

  • Months before Lie Ren was revealed, a prominent fan character was created. His identifying color is green, he is stoic (albeit far more so than Ren), and wields dual bladed pistols. During an interview, the crew mentioned that they have seen him and that these sort of things just happen.

That's the fan art that becomes "hilarious in hindsight" not the work itself. It's the fan art that came first and is made funny by Ren's similarity and the crew's confirmation they'd seen the artwork, too.

I'm not questioning whether the situation is funny, and I'm not removing it on the grounds of whether or not I personally find it funny (in this case, I actually am in the "find it funny" camp of people). I just cannot see how the example is relevant to the work, given that it's the fan art that's affected by the trope here, not the work itself.

Issues like the seventh one are also not about whether or not people find it funny. It's about whether or not it classifies as "hindsight" given that it's an earlier event affecting a later event, which is the reverse of the trope.

Hopefully, that clarifies my thinking here.

On the zero context examples, I did intend to add them back as commented out tags for others who might have more information to rewrite, but I honestly forgot, so apologies for that particular issue.

DAN004
12:57:05 AM Apr 2nd 2016
Lol you deleted even the one you chose to "keep".

I agree though that the fan art ones need to go. (Clarification: Hilarious in Hindsight from outside sources can count, but only if it's widespread, typically Memetic Mutation levels)

The Mortal Kombat X one fits better in that page rather than here.

The one about legs seem to fit more to Fridge Brilliance, maybe.
Wyldchyld
11:39:31 AM Apr 6th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Yes, I deleted everything from the main page, to be posted here, to bring people to the discussion page because it was considered still under discussion. That would include the entry I suggested keeping since my thoughts alone are not a consensus.

If you add an example back to a page, that's declaring a discussion resolved when when it's not. People will only come to a discussion page when the disputed entry is deleted from the page and posted to the discussion page for discussion.

I've put a note in the edit reason of the main page to flag that this trope is still under discussion, but I have not removed the examples you've added back to the page (although one of them does include the Mortal Combat example you're thinking would be better placed elsewhere). I can't comment on that one as I don't follow Mortal Combat, so I don't know whether it's best on this YMMV page, that one, or both (I'm assuming both is a valid option).
DAN004
08:29:23 PM Apr 6th 2016
I changed my mind: dat Mortal Kombat one fits here too
EverythingisAwful
Topic
08:00:10 AM Feb 26th 2016
We should keep the section about the Broken Base over Pyrrha's death.

Really because it's a pretty controversial move and a lot of people hate it but a lot of people like it and it has caused a rift in the fandom.
Wyldchyld
06:03:37 PM Feb 26th 2016
You need to find a way to summarise all that in only a sentence or two. What you've posted is natterific; at best, it's a major Word Cruft issue.
NNinja
05:00:38 AM Feb 27th 2016
I'd say right now it's good. No Word Cruft, no Natter, just straight to the points, quick and clean.
Karxrida
Topic
03:06:08 PM Feb 19th 2016
There seems to be an issue over this entry and whether or not it should stay.

  • Ass Pull: The "Silver Eyed Warriors" power, never hinted at until Ruby uses it to defeat the Grimm Dragon and Cinder at the end of Volume Three, offscreen. The most relevant points that come up are Ozpin remarking that Ruby has silver eyes in the very first episode of the series and making no other comments towards it, only that her eyes are silver. That Ruby has a magnificent power related to her eyes, or that her eyes marked her special or notable in any way, was never made of.

I think it should go. It was given foreshadowing, while Asspull requires that something not be foreshadowed.
SilenceInTheLibrary
03:09:50 PM Feb 19th 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
It was not given foreshadowing.

Zaptech discusses the part in "Ruby Rose" where Ozpin remarks on Ruby's eyes and the beginning of Volume 3, where Ruby wonders why Ozpin really let her into the school.

This fails to foreshadow anything. For something to be foreshadowing, it doesn't have to be spelled out, but there do need to be dots to connect. The first time, Ozpin simply said she had silver eyes and nothing else, and nothing more was made of it. He was stating a fact and made no other comments. The second case, Ruby didn't even bring up her eyes at all.

There is no way for a viewer to realize that Ruby is significant in any way because of her eyes until the whole shenanigan at the end of Volume 3. As far as most were able to tell, Ruby was either a maiden because of the story midway through Volume 3, or he was comparing her to Qrow, who he talks about later, which was proven false as of Qrow's first appearance showing he had red eyes.

There was also no way to discern anything about Ruby's apparent warrior heritage, Grimm-fighting, or that her mother possessed a similar power, all of these also being factors in the event qualifying as Ass Pull.

A factor being mentioned once doesn't qualify for foreshadowing. And an event with no foreshadowing that is not explained prior and moves a significant chunk of the plot is definitely an Ass Pull.
Zaptech
03:33:34 PM Feb 19th 2016
edited by Zaptech
Foreshadowing. "A clue or allusion embedded in the narrative that predicts some later event or revelation." It's literally right there in the first sentence of the trope description.

Asspull: "An Asspull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."

Pay attention to the bolded bit.

You can argue that it's not foreshadowing enough, but in retrospect, it's clearly foreshadowing. The first comment Ozpin says to Ruby, with a significant pause after it? Yes, the viewer was supposed to pick up on that as important. You cannot get a bigger "This will be important" flag without Deadpool leaning onto the screen and saying "This might be important late ron, pay attention."

It even says int he second sentence of the Foreshadowing description: "It could be a wayward comment or action".

I.e. "Ruby Rose. You have... silver eyes."

There's not a single sentence anywhere in the Foreshadowing or Aspull page's descriptions that says that there's some arbitrary minimum limit to how much foreshadowing is needed.
NNinja
03:44:02 PM Feb 19th 2016
edited by NNinja
Disagreed with Silence. The fact that Ozpin mentioned Ruby's Silver Eyes the very moment they've met for the first time is enough to imply that her eyes are somehow important. Just because it wasn't foreshadowed that they were important in this specific way doesn't mean that it was pulled out out of RT's rear end. It was already explained that magic and legends exist in the setting, we just were never told about this specific magic. And the fact that silver eyes were mentioned before in a way that clearly imply their importance makes it pretty clear that the move was planned ahead, not pulled out of nowhere.
SilenceInTheLibrary
03:45:32 PM Feb 19th 2016
That is not a clue or allusion though. Foreshadowing can be an offhand remark, but there must be substance to it. It also says "wayward". In case that's not clear to you, meeting a character and stating their eye color isn't wayward.
NNinja
03:51:49 PM Feb 19th 2016
Silence, just because you didn't manage to pick a clue doesn't mean the clue wasn't there. Aparently everyone else did. The fact that Oz mentioned Ruby's silver eyes as a first thing he said to her, the way he said it, it was more that clear that her eyes are important somehow. You failed to pick it apparently but judging from everyone's reactions it's clear that everyone expected her eyes to be important somehow
SilenceInTheLibrary
03:54:27 PM Feb 19th 2016
The inverse also applies. Only the people here seem to have picked up on this at all, despite everyone being aware of it.
NNinja
04:04:59 PM Feb 19th 2016
Yes, because i'll bring everyone i know who happened to have seen RWBY to disscussion on TVtropes whether or not Ozpin's comment about Ruby's eyes foreshadowed her magic or not. You said that Foreshadowing's definition contains a word "wayward". In case you didn't notice it also contained a word "could" exacly 3 words earlier. The next part is:"an event that doesn't make sense until later, a Meaningful Name, a rare blood type... so many things can warn us of the future." I'd say a rare eye color is in pretty much the same book as rare blood type, and it didn't make much sense until later. Of course once we learned about Ruby's abilities it made perfect sense, and before that happened we had a hint that it's important somehow. It might've not been foreshadowed enough for you but i can't agree that it wasn't foreshadowed at all. And Ass Pull is when it comes out of nowhere. And it's not out of nowhere if it was mentioned before, even if not everyone understood it's importance until now.
SilenceInTheLibrary
04:09:36 PM Feb 19th 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
You're missing something—we had no idea Ruby's eye color was rare. In fact, judging by the trope Gray Eyes, we should also have assumed Sun, Mercury, Torchwick, and Neo were special in some way too (this actually came up in the livestream, where Miles and Kerry shot down that Neo was a silver-eyes-warrior because of her eye color when she fled from Raven).

There can be a massive cut between what an author intends and what the audience receives. There are ways to fuck up foreshadowing.

Try to cool the sarcasm. I'm adamant, not rude, I think that should be a returned courtesy.
NNinja
04:29:30 PM Feb 19th 2016
Not grey, silver. it was specifically described as silver. Secondly Sun has brown, Roman has green, Neo is heterochromic(assuming that's here real eye color in the first place, she might be hidin them under illusion as she proved she could), Mercury has... i think it's black, but definitely none of them has even remotely similar to Ruby. And more importantly none of their eye colore were commented on. It's not the fact that she has silver eyes that foreshadowed their importance, it was the fact that Oz commented on her eyes. Keep in mind that this was the only time when Oz or anyone made any comment about anyone's eyes. I can't think of a clearer way to give signal "her eye color will be important at some point in the future"
SilenceInTheLibrary
04:46:31 PM Feb 19th 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
?????????????????????????? None of those eye colors you described are accurate.

I can. Actually, I don't know, comment on them, instead of just stating their color.

I concede. I don't have any energy left to argue this point.
Karxrida
04:49:45 PM Feb 19th 2016
Dude, chill out.

Not to be rude, but you're wrong about this. The importance of her eye color was definitely foreshadowed in a satisfactory manner to prevent her powers from being an Asspull.
Dawnwing
05:43:56 PM Feb 19th 2016
Add my vote to the "against" pile as well. As the others said, this was hinted at in the very first line Ozpin says to Ruby. It's such an odd comment to have the first thing he says to her be about her eyes, and calling them "silver" rather than "gray". Even though back then we had no idea what that meant, that line stood out as something that would probably get explained later on... and now it has. (It's not the only time they've thrown something in long before its significance was known - note for example that in the Vol 2 opening, Pyrrha has red maple leaves trailing behind her. Makes sense now why they'd choose that for her, no?) An Ass Pull is something the writer comes up with on the spot. They didn't suddenly come up with the silver-eyes thing; they were planning it from the beginning.
Wyldchyld
08:12:58 PM Feb 19th 2016
Her eyes were a very unsubtle example of foreshadowing, that the fandom has been discussing for three years (including how it might connect to her Missing Mom - speculation that predates the STRQ picture by 2 years).

The comment wasn't isolated either. Ozpin opens the entire conversation with the abrupt comment about her eye colour, then launches into an interrogation on her training and abilities, along with an unusual (and dangerous) weapon choice, before offering her a place at his academy.

In a single conversation, she's set up to have unusual eyes, unusual talent and an unusual weapon, which is why the fandom has been speculating about the significance of her eyes for three years.
bladeofdarkness
08:30:26 PM Feb 19th 2016
I'd just like to point out that the second opening as a very clear attention drawn to her eyes. at the start (the "there's a point..." segments) you can see her eyes - and only her eyes - hovering over Beacon. Her eyes are also the very last thing you see during the op.

considering that the second op also contains the maple leaves clue regarding Pyrrha, that's a pretty big foreshadowing.
tryrar
09:48:13 AM Feb 20th 2016
I'll admit I forgot about Ozpin's silver eyes line until it was brought up again in the finale, but afterwards it actually makes sense as to why he skipped her ahead 2 years(in addition to her being tremendously skilled). So yeah, I definitely see it was foreshadowed and thus not an asspull
nmn3r3
07:26:58 PM Feb 20th 2016
Here's the commentary that convinced me to add it the first time:

(credit to kurozu501 on Tumblr)

  • When you pull a game changing plot twist in your story, the majority of your audiences reactions should not be “wait what? what just happened?” it should be 'oh shit its the thing they’ve been hinting at/building up to all this time!'

  • I’ve been watching reaction videos to the rwby volume 3 season finale and every single person has had the first reaction when Ruby suddenly unleashes her power on Cinder. One person said “oh shit i knew it she’s a maiden!” to which i could only wince because that’s exactly how i reacted when i first saw it and i knew they’d find Qrow’s “silver eyed warriors” talk just as confusing as i did.

  • Take Garnet being a fusion in Steven Universe as an example. The reason this idea was a popular fan theory before it eventually became canon is because the su writers laid out the foreshadowing very effectively beforehand. They hinted it constantly. Little details like Garnet’s two gems on the door, a split second glimpse of Ruby and Sapphire when alexandrite de-fused, Garnet’s words to Stevonnie on existing as a fusion, all laid out the set up for the reveal.

  • RWBY should have done this with Ruby’s “silver eye” power. Even though i’d prefer Ruby’s power to come from her being a Maiden, i could have accepted the existence of an entirely new and different source of magic power if it had been built up to properly. If our first introduction to it hadn’t been in the last episode of a season in the form of an out of nowhere plot twist. It wouldn’t have been hard to foreshadow! Ozpin’s comment about her eyes in episode 1 was a decent start, but with nothing else that’s not enough on its own.

  • When Ruby defeats the nevermore in episode 8, show her eyes glowing with silver energy! Show her notice it in confusion, or have one of her teamates question it later. Have more moments like that throughout the first two seasons that hint at the power. Show it when she is stressed and going through a hard time, since the finale seemed to imply strong emotions trigger the power. Hell, just last episode Ruby was in a vicious brawl to the death with Roman and Neo on top of an airship. Hint at it then! Have her eyes start to glow more and more silver the more desperate the fight gets. Seem like its building up to Ruby about to do something big only to get cut off when Roman is devoured. Then next episode when she unleashes it against Cinder it would have felt to us like “ah so thats what that was.”

  • Foreshadowing Rooster Teeth. It’s not hard. A single 2 second comment in the first episode and then never mentioning it again until a season finale deus ex machina is not enough by a long shot."

In conclusion, the entire season seemed to be building up to Ruby being a Maiden, only to make a completely different callback in the end. All the focus on her eyes, her skills, and her weapon more looked like a buildup to how much she resembled Summer (and possibly a how Summer died plot point), not that the eyes themselves meant anything special.
NNinja
07:27:05 AM Feb 21st 2016
Actually her weapon resembled Qrow, not Summer, it was specifically stated that he was the one who taught her how to fight, and several times he was stated to use scythe. But that's beyond point. Ass Pull comes out of nowhere, for all you know the writer just came with it on the spot. This isn't a case as Ruby's silver eyes were clearly mentioned as early as season one. Yes, build up for Ruby being summer maiden was there and it turned out Ruby has something else entirely. You may or may not like it. But the fact that Ruby's silver eyes were long since mentioned makes it clear that it was planned from the begginning, and not made on spot. PS: All these suggestions about her eyes you've made would still look like build-up for Ruby being maiden, not to something else.
nmn3r3
10:21:47 AM Feb 21st 2016
Well, it wouldn't have been hard to say that all four maidens were accounted for, which would tell the viewers that something else was at play.

Can we at least say that the foreshadowing was terrible?
SilenceInTheLibrary
11:29:21 AM Feb 21st 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
^^^^^ Everything about this.

This said, a writer may plan something for a long time and not be able to foreshadow it correctly. What the author intends is not always what the audience receives, sometimes by a wide margin. Wait a minute—

THERE IT IS. Ass Pull wasn't the trope we were looking for, it was Deus Ex Machina! (although I'd still argue for Ass Pull).
Blazer
01:17:29 PM Feb 21st 2016
edited by Blazer
Deus ex Machina? Using the three rules applied on the page:

1) Is it a solution? If the main problem was the Grimm Dragon, then yes, it fits this criteria and even then, it's a half-solution. However, it does not save Pyrrha nor does it totally defeat Cinder or restore Beacon.

2) Is it sudden or unexpected? Yes, it's sudden and unexpected, however, it loses that "umph" ever since we've learned about the Four Maidens - there's other types of powers out there instead of Semblances and Dust-usage.

3) Was the problem it solved unsolvable or hopeless? Yes, the problem was hopeless, but again, it didn't even solve the problem at hand. Cinder wasn't defeated, she ran away and we aren't even sure she was even affected.

Thus, from my standpoint, it's not a DEM
Wyldchyld
02:48:26 PM Feb 21st 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
^ I agree that it's not Deus ex Machina.

Just because there are examples of some fans on Tumblr who didn't pick up on foreshadowing, or who took foreshadowing to the wrong conclusion, it doesn't change the fact that other fans did pick up on the foreshadowing.

In fairness to RT, the show has done nothing to build up Ruby being the Summer Maiden. That's pure fanon, based on the name of Ruby's mother (not Ruby's eye colour). Fans have even pointed out that the original Summer Maiden (once revealed) didn't fit Ruby at all (fire and a fun-loving personality is associated with Yang, not Ruby).

Even then, plenty of fans have been speculating that the silver eyes must mean something other than the Summer Maiden, given that the original Summer Maiden did not have silver eyes and appeared to be associated with the colour purple.

And even if there have fans who did link the silver eyes to the Summer Maiden, and therefore have been proven wrong, those fans are acknowledging that the silver eyes dialogue is foreshadowing something, even if they jumped to the wrong conclusion about what it was foreshadowing.

Again, the point has to be made that the Foreshadowing trope is not a commentary on whether fans think the foreshadowing has been good or poor, or even for fans to guess correctly in advance of the foreshadowed event. It's merely a reference to the fact foreshadowing has occurred - and as people have observed above, fans have also linked certain opening credit scenes to Ruby's eyes as well as the pilot episode dialogue (and we know the creators use the opening credits for foreshadowing because they've stated as much in interviews and livestream).
SilenceInTheLibrary
10:12:07 AM Feb 22nd 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
There is no possible way you can know that Cinder wasn't defeated or outright killed by Ruby's power. We don't see what happens, and nothing indicates she's even in the picture anymore. Even if she was defeated but not killed, it would qualify. Besides, Ruby's actions may not have restored Beacon, but for now they ensured that Vale wasn't completely destroyed.

Deus Ex Machinas don't have to completely 100% fix everything wrong about the situation. Nor can you say that because you think it lose its "oomph" after the revelation of the maidens, that the second point doesn't qualify, you outright said it was unexpected and sudden.
Blazer
10:55:28 PM Feb 22nd 2016
You seem so determined to prove that Ruby's power being unleashed is just bad writing. Maybe it is, but it's neither an Ass Pull or a Deus Ex Machina as there was just a bit of Foreshadowing.

I tried to think of where I'd seen something like it before and I had to double check to make sure, but this is more reminiscent of Gohan's first eruption of power in Dragon Ball Z where he suddenly gained enough power to nearly kill Raditz, then sputtered out. This is essentially what happened here with Ruby. If she got Cinder, we don't know. We know she's alive - Qrow told Ruby she was last spotted in Haven. The Grimm Dragon was just a bonus as Ruby was only trying to save Pyrrha.

As for the losing the "oomph" of the surprise bit, we're told by Ozpin that there are certain fairy tales that are actually real and are kept quiet because they could ruin civilization. The way Qrow explains the deal with the "silver-eyed warriors" certainly fits the bill.
Wyldchyld
06:22:22 PM Feb 26th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
We can't assume Vale would have been destroyed had the dragon stayed active - may be it would, may be it wouldn't. Ruby's intervention stops us from finding out if there was another way to defeat/contain the dragon (and at what cost).
Atharyn
Topic
09:35:32 PM Feb 17th 2016
First time troper here, so please forgive my inability to pull a quote correctly.

Under the Base Breaker for Cinder there's a lengthy aside comparing Cinder to Roman as Magnificent Bastards. The whole aside seems like it is arguing why Cinder shouldn't be hated.

Would it be better to simply cut the aside off? Starting with "(notably, Roman.." ?
bobwolf
09:38:12 PM Feb 17th 2016
Base breaker is a nightmare in general to manage.

Reads quite a bit like natter, though how much exactly should be trimmed I'm not sure.
SilenceInTheLibrary
09:02:43 AM Feb 18th 2016
I would argue that the bit on Roman be cut, since that's an unfortunate implication that is directly contradicted by the part later about fans being very upset about Penny's and Pyrrha's deaths, which is true.
Atharyn
09:09:43 AM Feb 18th 2016
How about this then:

"Cinder, by the end of Volume 3. A number of fans have accused her of being overpowered due to how well her plans come together. Others disagree, feeling her planning skills and power weren't any further than what one would expect from a good Magnificent Bastard villain."

(Trying to cut out all the loaded language for or against Cinder to leave a neutral paragraph.)
SilenceInTheLibrary
04:30:20 PM Feb 18th 2016
Sounds good.
Shaoken
Topic
03:20:26 AM Feb 16th 2016
Removed this example from What an Idiot:

  • In End of the Beginning, Pyrrha. Bless her soul, but Pyrrha. Ozpin stays behind to hold back Cinder and gives her and Jaune a chance to escape. But then Pyrrha decides that she somehow has a chance at defeating Cinder who, you know, absorbed all of the Fall Maiden's powers and basically became a goddess. Even when she hears Cinder rising up from the basement, which implies that she has already dealt with Ozpin, a much more powerful and experienced warrior than she is, it doesn't stop her from stuffing Jaune (who tries to convince and even begs her not to do it because he knows it's a suicide mission) into a locker and sends him away before going up the tower to confront Cinder anyway. This ends as well as you expect, and the only good that comes out of it is that Ruby is so distraught by her death, she unleashes her hidden power that freezes the Grimm Dragon and scares Cinder away.

People seem to forget that Phyrra held her own against Cinder quite well, landing a lot of blows onto her and clearly having the upper hand when it came to the physical side of fighting. Despite all her Fall Maiden powers Cinder's victory came down to using the Dragon and a trick arrow.

Willy2537
03:42:44 AM Feb 16th 2016
Held her own doesn't mean she could win. One on one, yes, Pyrrha may has a chance to win, but like you said, Cinder has trickery and a Grimm Dragon on her side. The odds are extremely against her, yet she thought she has a chance to win when even Ozpin himself couldn't. Moreover, Ozpin explicitly tells her to go find help, as together with allies they would stand a better chance. (At least Jaune has a working Scroll that he later uses to contact Ruby and Weiss, so the option of calling for help was available to her, but she didn't take it) Even Jaune knows this. But Pyrrha instead attempts to stop Cinder on her own with dire consequences.
NNinja
03:49:14 AM Feb 16th 2016
Personally i wasn't under impression that Pyrrha was fighting with intent of winning. The last thing Oz told her was "the tower cannot fall", i was under impression that Pyrrha was intending to hold Cinder of and stop her from destroing the tower before Glynda and rest of the backup arrives. If that was her intention she had very real chance of success even if she had very little chance of surviving.
Willy2537
04:13:20 AM Feb 16th 2016
Glynda and co. didn't even know where Cinder is, and Pyrrha goes to fight Cinder before either her or Jaune informs them of their enemy's location. Yes, there is a lot of 'maybes' going on. Maybe Glynda and co. are too busy fighting other Grimms and handling evacuation, maybe her allies are too wounded to help (which is true as shown in the scene with half of Team RWBY and JNPR lying injured on the ground), and Pyrrha did indeed send Jaune back to get help while she hold off Cinder. But the thing is she underestimates her enemy's strengths. Sure, she can fight Cinder to a standstill, Maiden-powered or not, but how did she know that Cinder is the only enemy she has to fight? What if Cinder had brought Mercury and Emerald(granted, Pyrrha didn't know that they were among her enemies, and didn't see them when Cinder arrived at the Vault, but still) or some sort of her bodyguard with her? She knows next to nothing about Cinder's capabilities and resources, but she engages her anyway. Holding ground or not, she wouldn't have hold out very long if any or all of the above were the case.
bladeofdarkness
06:31:42 AM Feb 16th 2016
Pyrrha went into that battle knowing she'll probably die. She didn't underestimate her enemy, she knew it was a fight she couldn't win from the start. She was buying time for Jaune to get help, which he does. Ruby may not have been the help she had in mind, but she ended up being the right person for the task. She stopped the Dragon, but she couldn't save pyrrha.
Willy2537
08:38:52 AM Feb 16th 2016
Yet the question remains: Jaune has his Scroll with him, and he later uses it to contact Ruby and Weiss, so why didn't Pyrrha use it? There was no need to send Jaune in the rocket locker so he could tell her friends what's going on. Pyrrha could've use the Scroll to contact them directly, then maybe launching Jaune away in the rocket locker anyway so he won't be getting in her way, then goes confront Cinder. That way, both Ruby and Weiss would've had a head start and, assuming everything proceeds exactly as it did from there, Ruby would've gotten to Pyrrha with a few seconds to spare before Cinder eliminates her, possibly saving her life.
bladeofdarkness
09:06:31 AM Feb 16th 2016
By that logic, If everything went exactly as it did, but ruby showed up in time to save pyrrha from dying, they'd both be dead. Pyrrha's death is what triggered ruby's silver eyes thing, and without it she would have just died along with her. You can't know whether or not you're making the right choice, and you can't predict the outcome of every single decision. You do what you think is right, and you live with the consequence. Even if it means dying.
Willy2537
09:27:15 AM Feb 16th 2016
edited by Willy2537
I admit you have a point there...

Rooster Teeth admits she was destined to die right from her character creation. What with Pyrrhic Victory and all that. Ah, well. Maybe I was too quick to tag the trope on her...but it just irks me that she chooses to fight alone despite her teacher and her best friend/lover telling her not to, and they're right, she doesn't have to fight alone, but she does it anyway, not knowing what would happen, or whether what she does will change anything or not. She does it for the sake of the plot, and that her arc's already completed so there's no need for her in the future, so I think it's kind of a bit forced there...
bladeofdarkness
09:57:48 AM Feb 16th 2016
The thing is, "hero faces against seemingly impossible odds for the greater good" is one of the cornerstones of storytelling. And putting other people's needs above her own is practically Pyrrha's defining character trait.

Willy2537
10:12:53 AM Feb 16th 2016
edited by Willy2537
And also her Fatal Flaw, considering how it ended for her. At any rate, from what you explained, she's fully aware of what she's doing and it's in-character for her, so I'm okay with the removal of the What an Idiot trope from her.

Dammit, now that I think of it, I can't believe I was so upset by what happened I'm willing to call Pyrrha an idiot when she's anything but...It's Tadashi Hamada all over again...

But I must admit that They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot about her becoming a new Fall Maiden and losing her identity, though.
bladeofdarkness
10:26:35 AM Feb 16th 2016
edited by bladeofdarkness
Its to the show's credit that it can have such an effect on people. and judging by the reactions online, you're far from the only one who's taking this hard.

and while I agree that they did wasn't a perfectly good plot, AND character, it's also kinda expected. there's a reason why almost everyone assumed Pyrrha was going to be killed off at some point - she really was too cool to live

having her lose her identity would have been an interesting development, for her. losing her, would have interesting development on other characters.

isn't that just like Pyrrha, always thinking of others first...
Willy2537
10:53:12 AM Feb 16th 2016
edited by Willy2537
Yeah, I was expecting her to be killed, too, but I didn't expect it would be this early into the series. I mean, we just lost Penny, Roman, Amber and Yang lost her right arm in a quick succession, and all that bait-and-switch about whether Pyrrha is going to suffer severe effects from the aura transition or not, I didn't expect her eventual death coming at all...especially not like this.

And here I thought the series will somehow put Pyrrha into the main character's role instead of Team RWBY, considering they didn't really have much impact on the overall plot in Volume 3. Boy, am I so wrong... Well played, Rooster Teeth. Well played.
Karxrida
09:48:53 PM Feb 17th 2016
edited by Karxrida
She was told the tower couldn't fall and was trying to buy time. Besides, she was holding her own until Cinder started playing dirty.

Not a What an Idiot moment, especially because it was totally in-character for her to try.
Willy2537
09:56:24 PM Feb 17th 2016
edited by Willy2537
She knows next to nothing about Cinder's capabilities. No matter how powerful she is, it kind of veers into Suicidal Overconfidence even if she does it to buy some time and not expecting to get out alive. Being able to go toe-to-toe with your enemy doesn't mean you can defeat them or they cannot eventually wear you out or start playing dirty. I mean, if Cinder was much, much more powerful, how much time did she expect she could buy?

Maybe not What an Idiot moment, but she definitely grabbed the Idiot Ball (or more specifically, Hero Ball) for the sake of the plot.
Karxrida
10:40:28 PM Feb 17th 2016
She didn't know the specifics, but she knew the Maidens were very powerful because Ozpin told her. She wasn't going into the situation blind.

She clearly knew she was very likely to die, but went anyway hoping to buy time for help she knew was coming and stop the tower from falling.
Willy2537
11:08:57 PM Feb 17th 2016
edited by Willy2537
How does she know she could held out long enough for help to arrive? She knows she's going to die, this I can accept, but the possibility of her getting killed much more earlier still exist. And Cinder might have completed her plans before help arrives anyway. It's a lose-lose situation, only in one situation she has a better chance to live.
bladeofdarkness
11:31:50 PM Feb 17th 2016
edited by bladeofdarkness
Firstly, I don't think you can judge the wisdom of a Suicide Mission by whether or not the one undertaking it survives.

The assumption that Pyrrha should have just waited for help, assumes that Cinder went into Ozpin's office so she could sit on his penis chair, put her feet on his desk and smoke his stash of fine cuban cigars while she politely waits for the heroes to regroup and launch a counterattack. from what we know of Cinder, that probably wasn't the case.

You don't need two people to call for help, and she specifically told Jaune to do so. But with Ozpin down, Cinder was free to do as she please, and while we don't know what she was planning on doing next, I'll hazard a guess and say "Something not good".

Pyrrha doesn't know if she could hold on long enough for help to arrive in time, or at all. She also doesn't know if that help would be able to stop Cinder anyway (Ozpin didn't last long). She does what she thinks is right, in the moment, and ultimately, it ends up paying off... just not for her.

Willy2537
02:11:55 AM Feb 18th 2016
edited by Willy2537
Okay, first of all, I already KNOW that Pyrrha knew it was a Suicide Mission. She knew she wasn't going to come back, period. That's why I am okay now with it being taken off the What an Idiot trope. What I'm discussing NOW, however, is that she has other options than what she did, and by NOT taking them, should it be considered some form of Idiot Ball?

Take Tadashi Hamada from Big Hero 6 for example. He runs into a burning building that could collapse or explode at any moment to save a man, whom he neither know the location nor whether he is still alive or not, and died from his actions. The character page of him has this trope listed: Too Dumb to Live, and while I'm inclined to disagree with this, it has a point. He did what is right, by blindly runs into the burning building with no plans at all to save the person trapped inside it, and died without accomplishing anything.

Now look back at Pyrrha. The situation is kinda similar, only the stakes are higher: the survival of the Beacon Tower, which is supposedly Cinder's ultimate target. Most of Beacon is already evacuated, so there's no people for her to save, but if the tower is lost, then so does the communication across the world, and therefore would lead to more casualties, so that justifies Pyrrha trying her damndest to save it. HOWEVER, like Tadashi, she didn't have any real plans of HOW to save it. Let's look at all the things I found wrong with her actions:

1. She sends Jaune back to call allies and prevent him from following her to fight Cinder and therefore risk him dying, too. You don't need two people to call for help, and yet you don't need to send someone back when you could've just easily use a Scroll (Jaune has one that still works) to call your allies from right there, and even then it's not too late for Pyrrha to send Jaune back so he won't get in her way. That would give her allies a head start while she's holding the line.

2. She goes to fight Cinder immediately because someone has to stop her from achieving her plans, assuming that she could hold her out long enough, and waiting out for allies to arrive might be too late. However, she has no idea whether her strengths would allow her to survive fighting Cinder long enough (and don't give me that: "She can handle herself alright in the show", please. If you were IN her shoes, how would you know? Maybe you could last longer than her, or maybe you could've died right at the moment you step out of the elevator). This can be somewhat justified by that it's in-character for her to do it, and she does not have too much time to think the situation through, like what bladeofdarkness said.

3. The moment she heard Cinder rising up from the Vault, she should know that Ozpin was defeated. Ozpin, to her, is the Headmaster of a school created to train warriors. To be the Headmaster, that means you must be pretty experienced and skilled. Even if she's a prodigy, she's still a first year student with little 'real' combat experience. If even Ozpin is defeated fighting Cinder, what chance does she think she have? Again, justifiable by that someone has to stop her, it's in character and all that. Okay, I get it.

So you see, Pyrrha did what she did at the moment. She doesn't have any plans. She just goes up there and tries her best to stop Cinder, just like when Tadashi ran into the fire to save the person even though he didn't know how to accomplish that. And so it comes down to this: should you consider an unplanned action thought up in a moment (even though other safer actions are present), however noble or in-character it is, some kind of a case of picking up the Idiot Ball? In this case, it's purely for the sake of the plot, as without her dying, Ruby wouldn't have activated her secret power, Cinder would've won and everybody would've died, all that. And in fact, the tower DID fall in the end, as Yang explained to Ruby that even though Cinder retreated, she was successful in destroying the tower and causing mistrust between kingdoms.

Just explain the definition of Idiot Ball to me, and why what Pyrrha did isn't considered as such, and I'll end the discussion.
bladeofdarkness
04:09:00 AM Feb 18th 2016
edited by bladeofdarkness
Well, its like I already said. She doesn't know whether or not it will succeed. Ruby has no reason to believe that she could take out the Airship in episode 10 either. She doesn't have a Plan, and she has no way of knowing if she'll succeed. She just knows that she has to try.

to continue you're Big Hero 6 comparisson, Hiro doesn't really know what's on the other side of the Portal when he dives into it either. He just knows that he has to try. Hiro is the main character so he survives because he's got Plot Armor. Tadashi is the mentor character, so he doesn't.

Edit: Also, Tadashi is a normal civilian - not a trained firefighter - rushing headlong into a fire. Pyrrha's a warrior in training - and an absurdly powerful one at that - rushing into a fight. that's not quite the same. Plus, Pyrrha doesn't simply "risk" her life going against Cinder - She's already accepted death as the outcome. Tadashi probably didn't intend to die.

As for Idiot Ball - It usually refers to a character acting stupidly in a way that seems far beyond what would be in character for them, in order to fuel the entire plot of the episode. like they've just been handed a ball that makes them act stupid.

In this case, Pyrrha going up against a seemingly impossible threat, because the greater good requires it, is not only in character for her, it's even justified by having just been told by Ozpin that "The tower must not fall". When Ozpin first tells her to go get help, she does that, or rather, she sends Jaune to do that. But when its clear that Ozpin's down, simply WAITING for the help to arrive is no longer an option. At that stage, it would be far more out of character for Pyrrha to run away, then it would be to face Cinder.

So she goes in, knowing she's going to die, and hoping that it would be enough. And it was.

Willy2537
05:47:08 AM Feb 18th 2016
Makes sense. Both Ruby and Hiro are main characters and therefore both of them have Plot Armor, so they can do whatever they please, while both Pyrrha and Tadashi are like young mentors, so when they do it they suffer Mentor Occupational Hazard. Okay...

I can understand the differences between Pyrrha and Tadashi, but I don't really buy that what they did was really that different. I mean, if someone deliberately runs into a burning building, either they're just crazy, or they accept the possibility that they could die, but do it anyway because someone needs their help. Both of them have a chance to walk away, most likely with Survivor Guilt, but alive. Ozpin said that the tower must not fall, but didn't explicitly orders Pyrrha to defend it. In fact, he told her that she'll 'just get in the way' before he fights with Cinder. But I can understand your point. Pyrrha and Tadashi are both too selfless to do that, and they sacrificed their lives doing the right thing. It's in character for them, and therefore not Idiot Ball.

Okay. I give up. Would still love to hear what others think about all this, though.

bladeofdarkness
05:53:43 AM Feb 18th 2016
For the record, I don't really agree with Tadashi being defined as "Too Dumb to Live" either. If people decide to label anyone who risks their lives to save others as being that way - You might as well label half of all fictional characters as Too Dumb to Live.
Willy2537
06:16:14 AM Feb 18th 2016
They reasoned that Tadashi never considered the possibility of Hiro following him into the building, therefore risking his life, too, which he really was almost going to do had the building not exploded first. Pyrrha is somewhat more Genre Savvy than him, so she sends Jaune away first, so clearly she has plan something ahead. Ah, well. Sometimes you just can't blame a character for doing what they're doing even though it disagrees with your common sense...
Larkmarn
07:48:08 AM Feb 18th 2016
In Tadashi's case, there's a clear line between "risking his life to save others" and "threw his life away under the pretense of helping someone who couldn't be helped." The building was already engulfed in flames, he has no idea where Callaghan is, no equipment, nothing. Realistically, the best case scenario is that he's creating another victim for the first responders to save.

It's noble, but damn is it dumb.
DAN004
09:34:56 AM Feb 21st 2016
So... how's the verdict on Pyrrha? Would she fall into What an Idiot or Hero Ball or something else?
Willy2537
10:56:27 AM Feb 21st 2016
edited by Willy2537
I believe she's not really qualified for What an Idiot, but yes, she does have some really questionable tactics regarding fighting Cinder alone that possibly qualify has her holding Hero Ball. She does send Jaune back to get help, then deliberately confront Cinder alone to buy some time, and she clearly wasn't expecting to come back alive, if her sharing her first/last kiss with Jaune is any indication. Still, nobody here answers me yet about why she or Jaune doesn't use a Scroll to call for allies from right then and there instead of sending Jaune back. Jaune uses his to contact Weiss and Ruby later, so obviously one of them still works. When they have called allies, then Pyrrha could've send Jaune away anyway while she confronts Cinder as expected. This will give her allies a head start to get to the tower and might possibly get there in time to save Pyrrha before she gets killed.

But alas, she MUST die in order for Ruby to activate her secret power, so yeah...
bladeofdarkness
11:21:30 AM Feb 21st 2016
are we really still on that one ?

Cinder is about to destroy the Beacon CCT transmitter, which would cut off all communications between the kingdoms. this could happen at any second, so waiting wasn't an option.

as for why send Jaune first... do you really think he'd let her go fight Cinder on her own (or at all) If she didn't shove him into that locker ?
Willy2537
11:32:10 AM Feb 21st 2016
edited by Willy2537
Whatever, man. I'm about as done as this as you are...

DAN 004 re-added it, but then it got removed again, and I don't even know which trope should she really belong in anymore.

As for the Scrolls, you really think Jaune could stop Pyrrha at all if she's set on stopping Cinder? That locker's not going anywhere, so when both of them are done calling for help, Pyrrha can shove Jaune in there just like it happened in the episode. Not that it matters to ANYONE I'm trying to point it out, it seems.

But I'm done. THIS IS DONE. Okay? I made a mistake, that's it. It's over.
troodos
Topic
05:07:58 PM Feb 15th 2016
Is there a reason why Salem was removed from Evil is Sexy?
SilenceInTheLibrary
08:14:27 PM Feb 15th 2016
Simply put, if someone thinks that albino old hag is sexy, they've got problems.
bobwolf
08:52:29 PM Feb 15th 2016
That's a bit harsher than I would have put it, but I am surprised at the entry. Is there wide spread agreement among the fandom that she's very attractive?
troodos
12:55:36 AM Feb 16th 2016
I've seen a lot of people saying so. Also, old hag? Are we looking at the same character model?
SilenceInTheLibrary
11:07:34 AM Feb 16th 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
Pretty sure...From what I've seen of the fandom, everyone thinks she's cool, but this is the first mention of her being sexy I've seen. Black Eyes of Evil + Tainted Veins + Eerie Pale-Skinned Brunette + wearing a black cloak and her hair in a very old style does not make for someone sexy. Plus, there's literally only been one scene of her. So, her being seemingly physically corrupted and conservatively dressed does push Evil Is Sexy too much. Being voiced by Jen Taylor might help, but that'll be a point for later in the series to determine.
Zaptech
12:23:09 PM Feb 19th 2016
Silence In The Library, whether or not you think someone is messed up for thinking Salem is sexy is irrelevant. Trust me, much, much stranger things have fallen under Evil Is Sexy. (You think Salem's weird? You haven't seen the reaction to Vipers from XCOM 2.)

Remember, the general rule of YMMV is "You don't decide other people's opinions."
SilenceInTheLibrary
03:30:16 PM Feb 19th 2016
Then why is one troper's opinion on a Word of God event irrelevant, but one or two people thinking a conservatively-dressed Humanoid Abomination is sexy applicable?

Forgive me for coming off as impatient but there needs to be a rule of thumb for these things.
Wyldchyld
08:19:25 PM Feb 19th 2016
There is a rule of thumb on these things. YMMV are audience reaction. If there are people who believe an example should fit, and it's not trope misuse or incorrect, it can be put on the page.

I don't get why people would view her as Evil Is Sexy either, but it doesn't give me the right to remove it from a YMMV page unless it's trope misuse.
manhandled
06:53:24 PM Mar 16th 2016
To weigh my money on the matter, I believe part of the problem lies in the difficulty of conveying true ugliness in RWBY's art style, or making that LOUD and clear for the audience. Indeed, I won't push the sexy part, but I can see a certain intimidating appeal in Salem. If anything, it's probably just a bit of coolness factor.
troodos
Topic
11:21:06 PM Feb 13th 2016
Would Cinder killing Pyrrha be an MEH? I mean, there was no real reason for her to do it, Pyrrha was already beaten.
Blazer
08:14:11 AM Feb 14th 2016
IMO, Cinder's MEH was orchestrating Penny's death
troodos
09:15:56 AM Feb 14th 2016
I would agree,but it appears that other people do not. When I listed it as an MEH for Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury, it got removed
NNinja
12:22:05 PM Feb 14th 2016
Yes, we disagreed and i explained to you why. Penny's death was another step in Cinder's plan and it wasn't any more evil than she was already established to be.

About Pyrrha she DID have a reason. Pyrrha already attacked her, and even with aura broken she still fought, and her semblance alone proved dangerous enough to move the kill away for For the Evulz teritory.
bobwolf
11:04:51 PM Feb 14th 2016
i'd say from a narrative perspective, Ruby activating her silver eyes ability in response to Pyrrha's death rather than Penny's could lend weight to the idea that it was a MEH.
NNinja
02:38:07 AM Feb 15th 2016
There is very little we know about Silver-eye magic to jump to any conclusions based just on that. What we do know, is that Ruby saw Penny already killed while Pyrrha was killed in front of her, and what's more, she didn't have anyone to focus her anger on until Nevermore appeared. And even Nevermore was still killed by someone else. So no, i don't think that was MEH based on Ruby's reaction alone.
bobwolf
10:28:30 AM Feb 15th 2016
Alright, how about the anger Ruby expresses towards Cinder regarding Pyrrha's death? Given that Ruby is the pure hearted hero, her anger in this case is unique.

I do think the audience is supposed to take Pyrrha's death as a serious step up in evil. Murdering off a main character on screen is usually something hard to walk back to the good side from.
Wyldchyld
01:50:10 PM Feb 15th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
I don't think Ruby's reaction to that scene is a good indicator of whether or not Cinder is an MEH. That reaction was more about Ruby's own story arc, not Cinder's. There was what happened to Yang, Ruby's decision to take responsibility for confronting Emerald and trying to save Penny and Pyrrha (which was thwarted by Mercury), and the responsibility placed on her to save Pyrrha. That's several episodes of building up pressure, responsibility and failure to Pyrrha.

Pyrrha's death doesn't seem to be about Cinder (she did too well against Cinder before losing). The point of her scene seems to be about triggering Ruby's power instead. That's not a MEH, it's more like the pressure of failing another friend being the straw that breaks the camel's back.
bobwolf
07:02:20 PM Feb 15th 2016
Can it be both? I feel like if MEH had to be only a villain act that didn't involve character growth/character arc on behalf of the protagonist, it limits it unnecessarily.
SilenceInTheLibrary
08:16:38 PM Feb 15th 2016
A villain doesn't have to have a Moral Event Horizon. Sometimes there are simply villains who were always evil, who never had a chance at redemption. Cinder is one of those villains, and frankly the rest are too, even if they seem easier to function around than her. Cinder tried to rip a woman's soul out through her face, sure, but her entire goal so far has been to have innocent people slaughtered by vicious, soulless monsters. So far, she never had a chance of redemption to begin with, and thus never had a horizon to cross.

Does that make sense?
bobwolf
08:53:21 PM Feb 15th 2016
It does alot actually. Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't getting the general gist of the argument.
Blazer
Topic
01:43:41 PM Feb 13th 2016
edited by Blazer
I removed a trope as I felt the trope being used wasn't used right:

  • Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: One of several possible responses to what Volume 3 did to the status quo. Penny, Pyrrha, Roman, and Amber are all confirmed dead, Ozpin is missing and possibly also dead, Beacon is gone, Vale is a hotspot of permanent Grimm activity, Weiss has been forcibly taken home by her father, Blake abandoned her teammates again despite promising never to do so in "Black and White," Yang is too emotionally and physically broken to even get out of bed, Cinder is unaccounted for, and the even greater evil she works for is ready to strike. It's almost hard to look forward to Volume 4 considering how bad the situation is.

If I remember correctly (without looking back at the trope page), Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy is essentially a work gotten so dark without any sort of victory moments for the heroes (or a victory moment that wasn't rendered null by something else five seconds later). IMO, this trope hasn't been reached. "Darkest Before The Dawn" is a good way to put it.
SomeNewGuy
01:48:44 PM Feb 13th 2016
The heroes accomplished literally nothing, the villain succeeds in all her plans and is completely untouchable, much less undefeatable, every episode since "Fall" does all it can to make everything as bleak and possible, two of the most popular characters are killed off before their character arcs even began and before either got any meaningful development, said deaths were so graphic and dark they bordered dangerously on exploitation, and every member of Team RWBY except Ruby were derailed into selfish, Wangsty cowards who abandoned her while she was in a coma.

I think its safe to say having any hope for anything even resembling a happy ending is a pipe dream at this point.
SilenceInTheLibrary
02:40:27 PM Feb 13th 2016
Way to be ignorant about it.

Weiss didn't exactly have a choice in abandoning Ruby. Her father is the most powerful man in the world short of James Ironwood himself, and it's understandable why he'd want her out of that hellhole. As for Blake, what do you think Adam would do to Ruby if Blake led him to her? She's trying to avoid more bleak and senseless death.

You might be turned off by all the darkness, but TV Tropes is the only place I've seen anyone get up in arms about it, usually one or two persistent people. Cerebus Syndrome can hit hard, but you'll have to get over it.
Zaptech
02:49:51 PM Feb 13th 2016
edited by Zaptech
Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy explicitly says on the trope page that it's not about a Crapsack World but about a setting where everything is so completely cynical or that all the characters are evil. Neither applies to RWBY.

Yeah, the badguys won a fight and some of the characters are depressed. Many fans are upset because some of their favorites died or are on the run or depressed. That doesn't make for Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. That's just a twist that fans are still shocked and upset about.

At least wait a while. The third season finale literally aired for sponsors seven hours ago! Avoid knee-jerk reactions!
Shaoken
05:43:53 PM Feb 13th 2016
Yeah, this is clear misuse. It's only been half of one volume, it'd be like throwing that trope on Star Wars just because of The Empire strikes back.

The sheer level of overreacting to say "I think its safe to say having any hope for anything even resembling a happy ending is a pipe dream at this point" is just baffling. Were you saying the same thing about The Last Airbender during Season 2 or Legend of Korra Season 3?
SatoshiBakura
06:25:43 PM Feb 13th 2016
Hell, Red vs Blue Season 13 was bleaker, and they managed to turn their Darkest Hour around in two episodes.
DAN004
11:25:43 AM Feb 15th 2016
The "apathy" part though... I don't think that part cares about whether everything turns out better or not. If the audience starts to stop caring, or when caring starts being burdensome, then it should count.

It's a ymmv that can change after we see what comes after, like what you two said above. But since we haven't gone to Vol 4 yet, this'll stay.
Shaoken
03:05:46 AM Feb 16th 2016
I'm sorry but I can't agree with your argument to keep it on the page. It hasn't even been a week so the fact that it was put on to begin with is a kneejerk reaction.

And "it's YMMV" is an incredibly weak justification that doesn't hold water. All YMMV tropes have to at least be some what true to some degree, so let's look at the full definition of the trope:

"Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy occurs when a conflict exists that simply lacks any reason for the audience to care about how it is resolved. This is often because the setting is extremely but meaninglessly Darker and Edgier, and/or all sides are abhorrently, equally evil—or at least, far enough gone that any difference between the two is splitting hairs. As such, consumers of media affected by Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy tend to approach conflict between parties or factions with remarkable indifference; because no matter who wins, the universe will still suck. (And while it would be really nice to see them all lose, that likely isn't going to happen.) In other words, there is nothing at stake. While there is a conflict happening, for all that the audience is concerned there might as well not be because they likely have little reason to care about who wins or loses. (And even when there are clear-cut good guys, they can be so smug, priggish, hypocritical, unpleasant, or just plain annoying that it's hard to feel too sad if the bad guys defeat them, especially if the bad guys actually have a good reason for hating them.)

This is the emotional result of Black and Black Morality. Because the conflict between the equal evils is essentially meaningless, there is no dramatic tension. Maybe one Eldritch Abomination eats you in a slightly less painful manner than the other one, but either way, you're still screwed. You can't support any factions or hold on to any ideals after this effect has set in. All you can do is sit agape as the writers apparently attempt to outdo themselves at making the setting even worse and more unpleasant and more nihilistic to the point where the media is a bland miserable monotone. This trope is not just about a Crapsack World, but about Evil Versus Evil and too much cynicism producing this effect. A sure sign of audience apathy setting in is if they start rooting for the Omnicidal Maniac—the setting is so bleak that no part of it is worth saving. When total oblivion looks like your best option, something is wrong.

A variant is when Shoot the Shaggy Dog meets True Art Is Too Angsty; a story is simply too bleak, hopeless, and...well, angsty for the audience to really care what happens. Leaving aside how obviously and overly depressing this is to read, if the characters are doomed to failure no matter what they do, and it is too obvious that they are doomed and their every action to avert this is pointless and hopeless, then the ending is inevitable and can be seen a mile off—so why bother continuing on with the story? (Especially if Developing Doomed Characters is done badly and you can't care about who's in it.) "

Okay, let's identify things shall we?

  • Broadly it's "when a conflict exists that simply lacks any reason for the audience to care about how it is resolved." That is not the case here as there is a clear reason for us to care. People love the cast and want them to get their happy ending. So in the broadest terms listing it on this page contradicts the definition and no amount of YMMV can change that.
  • "This is often because the setting is extremely but meaninglessly Darker and Edgier, and/or all sides are abhorrently, equally evil—or at least, far enough gone that any difference between the two is splitting hairs" The second part of this is clearly false; the worst of the good guys are team CRDL, who are just jerkasses and stand out for being dicks for the sake of it. I'd argue the first half is false as well as the Darker and Edgier elements weren't meaningless, they were there to show that there are some actual stakes at play here.
  • "As such, consumers of media affected by Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy tend to approach conflict between parties or factions with remarkable indifference; because no matter who wins, the universe will still suck." Completely false. As far as we can tell if Salem's faction wins it's complete human extinction, if team RWBY and co wins then the world might not become a Utopia but it will definitely start getting better.
  • "In other words, there is nothing at stake. While there is a conflict happening, for all that the audience is concerned there might as well not be because they likely have little reason to care about who wins or loses." There is plenty at stake as we all care about what happens to the heroes (and some of the villains. You will always live on in my heart Roman). The people who threw this example up are convinced that the heroes cannot win, but that doesn't fit the criteria and shows a remarkable blindness to how this scenario is played out in the thousands of works it's been used in.
  • "This is the emotional result of Black and Black Morality. Because the conflict between the equal evils is essentially meaningless, there is no dramatic tension" Again, untrue. There is some grey morality at play but it is largely black and white so far. And all of this darkness that's crept in has increased the dramatic tension significantly.
  • "You can't support any factions or hold on to any ideals after this effect has set in. All you can do is sit agape as the writers apparently attempt to outdo themselves at making the setting even worse and more unpleasant and more nihilistic to the point where the media is a bland miserable monotone." Anyone who honestly believes that needs to go away from their computer screen, watch some Game of Thrones or 40k and see what the above line actually looks like.
  • "This trope is not just about a Crapsack World, but about Evil Versus Evil and too much cynicism producing this effect. A sure sign of audience apathy setting in is if they start rooting for the Omnicidal Maniac—the setting is so bleak that no part of it is worth saving. When total oblivion looks like your best option, something is wrong. " While some people like Cinder and Salem I have yet to see anybody seriously cheering them on to win, so false.
  • "A variant is when Shoot the Shaggy Dog meets True Art Is Too Angsty; a story is simply too bleak, hopeless, and...well, angsty for the audience to really care what happens. Leaving aside how obviously and overly depressing this is to read, if the characters are doomed to failure no matter what they do, and it is too obvious that they are doomed and their every action to avert this is pointless and hopeless, then the ending is inevitable and can be seen a mile off—so why bother continuing on with the story?" False. The story is far from bleak and hopeless; the last quarter was darker but still had rays of hope. Team RNJR leaving on their mission being the key example of this.

So there, under all criteria for the actual trope RWBY fails to meet a single one. Anybody trying to add this is misusing the trope and I'm happy to argue the point to moderators if people want to push it.

AlisterFaust
Topic
12:45:32 PM Feb 13th 2016
Earlier today I posted this entry.
  • They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: Roman Torchwick. Classy, funny, capable of kicking major ass, and brought to life by a wonderful performance from Gray Haddock, he quickly became a favorite villain to many fans. Unfortunately there was little to no backstory about him, and just when it seemed like there would be more exposition on his reasons for joining Cinder, he is unceremoniously eaten by a Griffon.
A while later I had found it deleted, along with the reason for its deletion, and I can understand why it was removed. Though I do wish to clarify that I was not mad that he was killed (considering his ironic last words I too found his death rather fitting), I see the point in how he was useful to Cinder. What I meant by this entry though is that in the end, he was killed off before we got to learn much more about him other than a somewhat basic reason for his siding with Cinder. We don't know how he came into a partnership with Neo, or how he became a crime lord in the first place, and from what I could gather the creators hinted at him having a rather interesting backstory. I admit that I should have brought this here before putting it on the page itself and for that I apologize. What I would like to know now is if there would be any fitting trope for it or not?
SilenceInTheLibrary
02:45:10 PM Feb 13th 2016
As the one who removed it, let me answer your question and retort.

Simply not having an explained backstory is not enough for They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character—if that were the case, Penny herself would be wasted. What matters is that Roman's screentime and in-story presence were both large and effective and had multiple effects on the plot. We essentially got his reasons and motivations: he doesn't have one. He follows the strongest side, and seeing as he's a sociopathic, casually violent man who seems to enjoy causing chaos and destruction, I don't think there's much in the way for a tragic backstory for him. And that's Truth in Television: most people that get a kick out of killing don't actually have any deep reason for it, they're just nuts. If you feel like the creators hinted otherwise, they seem to have retracted that.

Roman's fulfilled far more than his original character design was intended. There's an entry on him for Ensemble Darkhorse, which frankly fits much better. If you want to put in a They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character entry, consider Sun Wukong and his team.
Riley1sCool
12:54:09 PM May 23rd 2016
I think it should have stayed, because Roman's only nice moment and any possibility of Character Development were thrown out the window. Now, I even listed that as my Dethroning Moment of Suck for RWBY, but Roman was a villain with many plot avenues they could have gone to. Being a Wild Card who has an I Fight for the Strongest Side motivation, he could have had a brief Heel–Face Turn. There also could very well have been a revenge arc for him and Neo, leading him to further evil. There were a lot of opportunities there, and none of them were used. But, I don't run the wiki. It's your decisions.

Also, I made the entry on him for Ensemble Darkhorse, which I would've had to remove if he got enough plot focus. So I'm kind of shooting myself in the foot here.
troodos
Topic
01:26:56 AM Feb 11th 2016
I'm confused. How is Adam cutting off Yang's arm a MEH, but Emerald MURDERING A CHILD got removed?
NNinja
01:50:39 AM Feb 11th 2016
I was the one who started earlier discussion in which it was agreed that it should be removed and i did the act so i'll bear responsibility of explanation.

While Emerald killing Penny was without doubt villainous act it wasn't any more evil that she was already established to be willing to do. Emerald and Mercury already killed Tucson, becausehe followed Blake's footsteps and almost killed Amber to gain her power. Now if killing Penny was done For the Evulz i'd agree that it's MEH, but this is yet another step in their plan we know nothing about, the same reason they attacked Amber. Then we have grimm invasion ater that train ride and more recent grimm invasion Up to Eleven, and yet it's killing Penny which the supposely crossed the line, simply because the audience liked her. For me that's not Moral Event Horizon, that's Viewer-centered morality. It's debatable whether they actually crossed at all, but they certainly didn't cross it at this specific point. Keep in mind that MEH seperates redeemable villain from irredeemable so if act doesn't establish villain as more vile then it doesn't qualify.

About Adam i haven't debated about him and left entry intact, because what he did did establish him as more evil than he was shown to be. Untill his recent actions he was Well-Intentioned Extremist, misguided but undersdtandable. Then he attacked Blake and stabbed her to provoke Yang, and cut her arm of not a nessecity to achieve noble, or even questionable goal but just to hurt Blake for leaving him. Revenge by Proxy is allways considered Moral Event Horizon unless it was already crossed, because you target innocent person just to harm another one. Before that point he could have been redeemed, but that was far more villainous than what he did earlier, and i see why would people see him as monster from now on.
troodos
02:47:03 AM Feb 11th 2016
The issue is that is was NOT a necessary part of their plan. Cinder made it clear that it was just a way to make the plan easier. And in my personal opinion (and I believe that's what YMMV is for), that act DID move Emerald from redeemable to irredeemable.
NNinja
05:03:50 AM Feb 11th 2016
edited by NNinja
So if it would be someone else this wouldn't be Moral Event Horizon? Using Penny would make it easier because Pyrrha had polarity, and no one knew about it, so setting her up to kill Penny would be child's play. That doesn't meand original plan did not involve someone's death. It just happened to be Penny. If you believe that this specific act was worse than killing Tucson or attacking Amber or the previous invasion then WHY was it worse? Because right now it seems more like meta-example of What Measure Is a Non-Cute? than Moral Event Horizon.
SilenceInTheLibrary
02:52:00 PM Feb 13th 2016
Killing Penny would essentially by the MEH for Cinder, if she hadn't already crossed it by ripping out half a woman's soul through her face.

What sets Emerald and Adam apart is that Emerald was under orders (even if she's a sadistic person who had no problem with it) while Adam simply did it to be cruel and for no other reason.
NNinja
12:16:02 PM Feb 14th 2016
Well Silence, if you believe that killing Amber was MEH for Cinder then i'll comply. Chronologically it was her earliest kill we know of, and if you believe it was when she crossed the line, i have no counter. Personally i don't feel it that way(it was just a next step for her plan we have yet to learn), but since it's YMMV we don't really all have to agree.
SilenceInTheLibrary
08:20:16 PM Feb 15th 2016
Check a few discussions above where MEH was brought up again, I expand on Cinder there.
Wyldchyld
Topic
10:13:21 AM Feb 5th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Narm entry brought here to discuss rewrite:
  • The very first minute of "Battle of Beacon" is supposed to be a horrifying scene, with innocent people fleeing in terror from the Grim in every direction. But having Blake and Weiss stand in the middle of this chaos and not react to it at all adds a certain level of comical suicidal obliviousness to the scene.


To clarify: I'm not questioning whether parts of the fanbase view the scene as narm. However, it's pretty clear from both their expressions and the things they say that the two girls are in absolute shock at what they're witnessing. I'd suggest a rewrite along the following lines. Any suggestions welcome.

  • The very first minute of "Battle of Beacon" is supposed to be a horrifying scene, with innocent people fleeing in terror from the Grimm in every direction. Blake and Weiss stand in the middle of this chaos and discuss meeting at the dock. They're clearly in shock at what they're seeing, but their muted behaviour downplays the drama happening around them.

Larkmarn
11:30:20 AM Feb 5th 2016
Yeah, that's misrepresenting it. Maybe "But having Blake and Weiss stand in the middle of this chaos in a Heroic BSOD and seemingly not reacting to it at all adds a certain level of comical suicidal obliviousness to the scene"?
Wyldchyld
03:19:46 PM Feb 5th 2016
How about "But Blake and Weiss stand in the middle of this chaos in a Heroic BSOD, and their apparent lack of reaction to it all adds a certain level of comical suicidal obliviousness to the scene."?
ForTaxPurposes
Topic
12:31:52 AM Jan 31st 2016
edited by ForTaxPurposes
Hi, I made the What an Idiot post regarding Mercury confronting Ruby. I thought it was idiotic that he chose to confront her after being told to lay low merely one episode prior. It was first removed because we didn't know enough about Cinder's plans yet, and then again because it was apparently so close to the time the plan would be executed that it wouldn't matter anymore.

Which, in my opinion, kinda makes this stand-off even MORE pointless and still potentially detrimental to their plan. For one, as I said, Ruby was not even investigating what she heard from Velvet about Coco's similar experience. All she did have was a hunch. Did that REALLY warrant needing Mercury to silence her, when Ruby couldn't have possibly been able to do anything to jeopardize their plan by that point? All this accomplished was make her aware that not only was Mercury perfectly fine, he's likely linked to the people causing this huge catastrophe. That sounds pretty idiotic to me.

And for that matter, if Mercury was never meant to lay low, why would the writers even write Cinder telling him to, when the next episode directly contradicts that order? Why not have her tell him to come out "when the time is right" or something, and then have a scene of him receiving a message to take care of Ruby? And why have the cover story say Emerald went back with him to Haven when she's seen watching the very next match?

Anyway, that's my case.
SilenceInTheLibrary
06:43:37 PM Jan 31st 2016
I think you're thinking too hard about it. Even if your point was valid, What an Idiot wouldn't really be the trope to put it under—that has more to do with defying orders than acting in a stupid manner.

The "lay low" business lasted a day, maybe two. Enough time for it to be important not to be seen, but not so much that it matters at the end of another episode. I also made mention of this part on Mercury's page, but consider him as a sociopath. He's defied orders once already simply for amusement (killing Tukson), and this is likely a repeat—he goes after Ruby for amusement, entertainment. He stops attacking for the same reason—not because the plan is already in effect, but likely because she's no longer running or fighting and therefore no longer interesting.
Zaptech
04:05:30 PM Feb 2nd 2016
As was discussed on the headscratchers page, Cinder's plan is at a point where they needed to keep any potential interference away, if only for a few minutes. It's clearly obvious that Mercury wasn't trying to kill Ruby, he was just there to stop her from interfering for a few moments until Emerald could mess with Pyrrha's mind. All they really needed to do was keep things quiet for the remaining day they needed to set up Pyrrha's fall. Cinder telling Mercury to lay low is, in retrospect, clearly just her telling him to stay out of sight to not ruin their cover for the short time they have remaining, but be ready to covertly step in if there's any potential interference at a crucial moment.
Wyldchyld
10:16:26 AM Feb 5th 2016
I second Zaptech's response.
Shaoken
10:03:56 PM Feb 7th 2016
And I third it since after that fight all hell breaks loose.
ForTaxPurposes
02:01:03 AM Feb 13th 2016
And again, Ruby was nowhere close to being that potential interference, and Mercury and Emerald showing up in front of her only contributed to MAKING her that. If Penny facing Pyrrha was actually a concern, why did Ruby not think of this possibility when the finalists were announced, and that became a 1/7 possibility (and then 1/5 after Yang's match)? If Mercury hadn't given her that nudge of "hey we planned this", she probably would've just let things go along as planned, and by the time things had started to go bad, it would have already been too late. If Ironwood, who ALSO knew Penny was made of metal, was perfectly fine with her fighting someone with magnetism abilities, what the heck did they think RUBY was gonna do?

Never mind that Ruby would not have been given even more to go on if Cinder had not needlessly added Emerald "rushing back to Haven" so that it could be instantly contradicted...by Emerald being seen in public at the very next match. So there's more blatant idiocy.
Wyldchyld
Topic
04:27:03 PM Jan 24th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Removed to here to discuss what are genuine entries and what are just "fandom is not 100% united in opinion".

The move has been triggered by the last entry on the WoR segments which was added within an hour or so of the Maidens episode sponsor-only release. It's not possible to form a Broken Base situation in such a short, and restricted, amount of time. While I know fans don't agree on whether the segments are good, bad or just 'meh', I've never seen anyone care enough to argue about differences in opinion either.

All the entries could use a review, however.


  • Broken Base:
    • The voice acting is easily the most contentious aspect of the series so far. The question is whether you're basing your complaints on the voice pitches or the voice acting. In a remarkable transition, Vocal Evolution has rendered much of the conversation obsolete.
    • Ruby's Perky Goth voice at the end of the Yellow trailer led to mixed reactions as well. The high-pitched, somewhat childish tone does fit her, admittedly, given her short height, youthful appearance and apparent cheerfulness. However, it doesn't mean people particularly like it either. Part of the blame can be attributed to the fact that the way she was presented in the ''Red'' trailer suggested otherwise. Monty himself says that the "Red" trailer was more of a weapon resume than a character trailer; Ruby had no actual character in it. Of course, following episode 1, most people aren't complaining about it as much now due to Vocal Evolution and her personality becoming better established.
    • Weiss:
      • Her bitchy attitude during the first half of Season 1 caused some friction, especially from those who saw her trailer and pictured her as The Stoic lonely girl. Some like the extra fire (and the extra comedy that comes from her friction with other characters), but others dislike it on account of her being, well, a bitch when it isn't really needed. Finally seems to be lessening as of Episode 8.
      • Her Fantastic Racism regarding Faunus is causing her to fall back into the bitchiness in some fan's eye. Some believe she has her reasons (namely, being terrorized by a group of them that caused problems with her father), but the debate is in whether it makes her in the right or not to judge an entire race based on the actions of a few of them. Does not help that her jerk tendency is zig-zagging. Her acceptance of Blake in Vol2 and her attempt to get Blake to communicate with her team in chapter 2 calmed this particular break.
    • Volume 3 brought a much needed improvement to her personality from acknowledging Ruby as a friend to even sacrificing her spot in the tournament for Yang.
    • Some people have a problem with Blake's behavior during 'The Stray' and 'Black & White', on account of them believing she throws an almost uncharacteristic temper tantrum at Weiss. Others defend her behavior, proclaiming that it was only natural for someone like Blake to eventually get fed up with Weiss' (not entirely unjustified) Fantastic Racism. Some feel that it was rather cold of her not to defend Velvet from Cardin (other than stare in silent contempt), while others say that her inaction isn't particularly different from how literally everybody else did nothing to Cardin (on screen, of course).
    • There is a large Broken Base over Volume 2, Chapter 6 "Burning the Candle" regarding whether there is a case of Bait-and-Switch Lesbians. (The crux of the argument is that Rooster Teeth said that Remnant is "queer accepting" and then at the dance, everyone quickly went into male/female pairings.) While this ignores how Blake and Yang actually danced on-screen together before Sun arrived, and nobody batted an eyelash, the background dancers lacked any male/male or female/female pairings who were explicitly together during the slow dances.
    • The fact that Sun's remaining team members, Scarlet and Sage, don't show up in Volume 2 (save for one brief shot of them from very far away) despite appearing in the title opening and being hinted at during the hiatus, has left many fans very bitter.
    • One complaint from Vol1 was a lack of characters with diverse ethnicity. Some argue that since RWBY is, or at least is based off, an anime, the tendency for white and asian characters to have similar skin tones shouldn't be surprising. Emerald's addition in Vol2 was happily accepted, but the tendency for the majority of background characters to be various shades of white is still criticized.
    • Zwei is a mixed bag depending on who you ask. An instant hit with the fandom when he was first introduced, his further appearances have soured some fans into thinking Zwei was thrown in for comedic effect and/or fanservice. Most notably, in "Breach," while other characters expended considerable effort and resources to defeat Grimm, Zwei manages to stop one simply by headbutting it.
    • Whether Ozpin's decision on how to address the White Fang base at Mountain Glennote  was a good idea or not and how much blame he deserves for the subsequent breach is a hotly debated topic.
    • While many fans readily enjoy what's been released for Grimm Eclipse, many are upset that it just focuses on Team RWBY and relegates other teams (especially JNPR and CFVY) to just being possible DLC. However, since it's an early access game, it's likely other characters will come as a free update. According to Word of God from the games creators during the recent RWBY life stream they are in fact going to add a lot more additional content to the game, including new playable characters.
    • Yang's winning streak. The only fight she's ever unquestionably lost was a Curb-Stomp Battle against the older and more experienced Neo. Other than that, Yang has won all of her fights and even against opponents that require teamwork, Yang is almost always the key element to ensuring Team RWBY's victory. Is making Yang a total Badass who wins all of the time an interesting and satisfying subversion to the usual expectations by showing just how powerful characters like her should be, or does Yang's badassery make her fights boring and predictable along with making the rest of Team RWBY, especially Ruby herself, look like incompetent wannabe's by comparison?
    • Ruby's losing streak. With the exception of her initial fight in the beginning of the series, solo fights tend to go poorly for Ruby, especially if Ruby should be relieved of Crescent Rose for that particular encounter. It's either portraying Ruby as in over her head against more cunning foes, realistic given her training with a sniper-scythe rather than her fists, or a blatant usage of The Worf Effect to bolster up the others.
    • When it comes to the World of Remnant segments, there's usually two sides. The one side that loves the segments as they expand on the lore of RWBY and find them to be nice break. Others, however, find it to be meaningless padding that would have worked better if it were put in exposition in the actual show, rather than be separated into a brief episode. There are others who find the segments being placed in the worst spot, usually when the story hits a high note. This becomes egregiousnote  when the episode focuses on the Maidens, as some people are split on whether this as a nice episode, being longer and even more animated than the other WoRs, or if it was pointless considering that Ozpin already talked about them in "Fall", right as the story hit its Darkest Hour.
Psyga315
06:28:07 PM Jan 24th 2016
When I added that, I was gauging the reactions on 4chan and comparing it to what people thought regardless.
DAN004
03:38:45 PM Jan 25th 2016
I believe we need to actually wait for, like, 2 weeks - a month after anything new is released to see if they can be added to the list or not.

So please, do not delete a whole entry based on one recent mistake alone.
Psyga315
07:19:36 PM Jan 25th 2016
So motion to restore the entry without the recent Wo R entry?
Wyldchyld
02:20:51 PM Jan 26th 2016
Dan, I'm not deleting the entry. I've brought it here for discussion to see which entries are valid and which are not. If everyone declares every entry valid, so be it. If people agree certain entries are valid, we can add those back to the page as they're agreed, and I can strike them out of the original post to show they've been sorted out.
jboone93
02:27:27 PM Jan 26th 2016
edited by jboone93
My two cents
  • The voice acting is easily the most contentious aspect of the series so far. The question is whether you're basing your complaints on the voice pitches or the voice acting. In a remarkable transition, Vocal Evolution has rendered much of the conversation obsolete.
  • Ruby's Perky Goth voice at the end of the Yellow trailer led to mixed reactions as well. The high-pitched, somewhat childish tone does fit her, admittedly, given her short height, youthful appearance and apparent cheerfulness. However, it doesn't mean people particularly like it either. Part of the blame can be attributed to the fact that the way she was presented in the Red trailer suggested otherwise. Monty himself says that the "Red" trailer was more of a weapon resume than a character trailer; Ruby had no actual character in it. Of course, following episode 1, most people aren't complaining about it as much now due to Vocal Evolution and her personality becoming better established.

Both of these are very outdated and only have to do with the trailers, which can lie anyway. These can be removed safely I think.

  • While many fans readily enjoy what's been released for Grimm Eclipse, many are upset that it just focuses on Team RWBY and relegates other teams (especially JNPR and CFVY) to just being possible DLC. However, since it's an early access game, it's likely other characters will come as a free update. According to Word of God from the games creators during the recent RWBY life stream they are in fact going to add a lot more additional content to the game, including new playable characters.

This has nothing to do with the show itself. If/When Grimm Eclipse gets a page, it can go there.
SilenceInTheLibrary
06:35:34 PM Jan 31st 2016
I agree, cut out the bits that are, at this point, years old. But leave what's recent. I would say that almost everything barring Yang and Ruby's win/loss streaks can be removed. The anger at the lack of Sun's teammates isn't broken base—it's literally the entire base. No one is happy about. Everyone is pissed and they are still pissed. The incendiary reactions to Zwei have calmed down, as have the parts about Ozpin's decision-making. Other than that, everything from before Volume 2 can be safely removed.
SilenceInTheLibrary
06:38:03 PM Jan 31st 2016
edited by SilenceInTheLibrary
Suggested fix:

- There is a large Broken Base over Volume 2, Chapter 6 "Burning the Candle" regarding whether there is a case of Bait-and-Switch Lesbians. (The crux of the argument is that Rooster Teeth said that Remnant is "queer accepting" and then at the dance, everyone quickly went into male/female pairings.) While this ignores how Blake and Yang actually danced on-screen together before Sun arrived, and nobody batted an eyelash, the background dancers lacked any male/male or female/female pairings who were explicitly together during the slow dances.

- Yang's winning streak. The only fight she's ever unquestionably lost was a Curb-Stomp Battle against the older and more experienced Neo. Other than that, Yang has won all of her fights and even against opponents that require teamwork, Yang is almost always the key element to ensuring Team RWBY's victory. Is making Yang a total Badass who wins all of the time an interesting and satisfying subversion to the usual expectations by showing just how powerful characters like her should be, or does Yang's badassery make her fights boring and predictable along with making the rest of Team RWBY, especially Ruby herself, look like incompetent wannabe's by comparison?

- Ruby's losing streak. With the exception of her initial fight in the beginning of the series, solo fights tend to go poorly for Ruby, especially if Ruby should be relieved of Crescent Rose for that particular encounter. It's either portraying Ruby as in over her head against more cunning foes, realistic given her training with a sniper-scythe rather than her fists, or a blatant usage of The Worf Effect to bolster up the others.

- When it comes to the World of Remnant segments, there's usually two sides. The one side that loves the segments as they expand on the lore of RWBY and find them to be nice break. Others, however, find it to be meaningless padding that would have worked better if it were put in exposition in the actual show, rather than be separated into a brief episode. There are others who find the segments being placed in the worst spot, usually when the story hits a high note. This becomes egregiousnote when the episode focuses on the Maidens, as some people are split on whether this as a nice episode, being longer and even more animated than the other Wo Rs, or if it was pointless considering that Ozpin already talked about them in "Fall", right as the story hit its Darkest Hour.
Wyldchyld
10:22:36 AM Feb 5th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Okay, I've given it a week for any further responses.

Take a look at my first post. I'll remove the ones that I've put strike-through on, and then replace the four remaining ones with Silence In The Library's rewrite.

Does that work for everyone?
SilenceInTheLibrary
09:57:09 AM Feb 7th 2016
Well, we may have to do further rethinking given the new episode. Yang's win streak certainly did not carry over. Other than that though, things look good.
MosquitoMan
Topic
11:43:49 PM Jan 23rd 2016
Can we add Ensemble Darkhorse back? If the problem is 'too many examples' then we just trim the fat or give the show its own page. It wouldn't be the first time a work has its own page for it.

It's a trope that applies to the show, how long are we going to hold it back? Last post regarding it was December 14th.
NNinja
12:49:59 PM Jan 24th 2016
Before that happens we should at least discuss who IS Ensemble Darkhorse in the first place. The reason it was cut out as far as i can tell was serious overuse by adding all likable characters wheter they were meant to be or supposed to have minor role.
Wyldchyld
04:21:31 PM Jan 24th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
The reason it hasn't been added back is because the discussion stopped without resolution. Feel free to add anything you feel needs to be said to the discussion below - and may be add an edit reason to the YMMV page in the process to direct people to the discussion to get it started again.
Larkmarn
05:26:42 AM Jan 26th 2016
My issue with them is that the entries, especially early on, were basically "yep, this new character is sort of interesting and talked about" without waiting to see whether they actually wound up staying popular or just were interesting because they were new. A lot of those "Darkhorses" were just flashes in the pan, someone that fans talked about when they were new and swiftly stopped caring about.
Wyldchyld
10:26:10 AM Feb 5th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
That was my issue, too. I'll add back Velvet and Perry since there was agreement on those two. Any others can be discussed if they crop up in future.
Karxrida
10:35:48 AM Feb 5th 2016
Just going to say that Roman is too important to qualify anymore.
Wyldchyld
03:20:45 PM Feb 5th 2016
That's fair enough.
Karxrida
Topic
07:22:50 PM Jan 23rd 2016
What's with all the Jaune hate?
NNinja
12:50:26 PM Jan 24th 2016
What hate? I don't see anyone particularly hating this guy.
Wyldchyld
Topic
11:08:42 AM Jan 20th 2016
Brought here for discussion:

  • Take That, Scrappy!:
    • Cardin finally receives a little retribution in the episode Forever Fall Pt. 2: Jaune finally growing a spine to stand up to him, his teammates running away from an incoming Ursa and leaving him behind, said Ursa giving him a beating, and then being saved by his own bully victim.
    • Episode 5, Volume 2: Watching Pyrrha absolutely demolish all of them together in a sparring match is extremely gratifying.

Cardin has never been given The Scrappy designation, so can the Take That, Scrappy! trope apply to someone who isn't The Scrappy?

I'm not asking whether or not Cardin should be designated The Scrappy. There's a forum thread where that question can be asked, should there be a desire to ask it.
AnoBakaDesu
11:52:43 AM Jan 20th 2016
edited by AnoBakaDesu
It doesn't necessarily need to be The Scrappy. Take That, Scrappy! explicitly says The Scrappy and its ilk, which is an index of hatedom tropes that are also perfectly applicable to Take That, Scrappy!. It's unusual for you to be pulling this into discussion before reading the trope in-depth. It's been asked in Ask The Tropers, too.
Wyldchyld
01:34:35 PM Jan 21st 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
I did read the trope in depth before I pulled. I found the trope description confusing and open-ended. However, if the trope description has been clarified anywhere and he doesn't need to be first designated The Scrappy, then I'm fine with putting it back on the page.
Larkmarn
01:47:53 PM Jan 21st 2016
edited by Larkmarn
Pretty sure that it shouldn't count. A Hate Sink getting its comeuppance is an entirely objective instance. A subjective trope like that is wildly inappropriate. Especially since Asshole Victim exists.

There's discussion in ATT... but ABD is the only one who responded so that's rather... inconclusive.
Peteman
06:28:50 PM Jan 21st 2016
Take That, Scrappy! is when a character who is hated by the audience gets their comeuppance, hence the subjectivity (it's possible for a character intended to be a Hate Sink to become liked despite the intention, it's why Draco in Leather Pants and Unintentionally Sympathetic exists). Asshole Victim is in-universe.
Larkmarn
06:14:00 AM Jan 22nd 2016
That's actually a good argument. The subjective-ness comes from the audience's catharsis, not the Scrappy-ness. Makes sense to me.
Peteman
04:40:55 PM Jan 24th 2016
edited by Peteman
Yeah. An Asshole Victim doesn't need to be a Hate Sink or The Scrappy. The author might have written them to be suave, they might have traits that the audience latches onto, despite or even because of the author's intent for them to be despised. Or they might have no character at all because they're a Plot Device to get the episode going.
NNinja
Topic
02:33:18 PM Jan 18th 2016
Explain this to me. Why killing Penny is considered Moral Event Horizon for Cinder's group? I'm not saying that it wasn't evil, but MEH is a line that seperates simple badguyism from irredeemable evil and i don't really understand why at this specific point they crossed that line. Keep in mind Penny wasn't their first kill, before that there was Tucson, who died because he pulled off Screw This, I'm Outta Here!, and unleashing Grimm invasion. And yet the line was not killing basically male, more unlucky version of Blake, or unleashing monster attack, or even more recent Grimm invasion Up to Eleven, but death of Ridiculouslyhuman Robot, which mind you, was key part to their plan we have yed to understand. Viewer-centered morality much?
AnoBakaDesu
03:34:24 PM Jan 20th 2016
Agreed. Unless someone can justify a reason for that entry to stay, burn it on the grounds that it's not in accordance with the trope's description.

That also raises the issue of shoehorning the trope in other series.
BlackSunNocturne
06:39:17 PM Jan 20th 2016
edited by BlackSunNocturne
Because Cinder and her crew of anarchists have been doing more and more evil. Cinder, for lack of a better term, nearly killed Amber because she wanted her powers.

She had Penny get brutally killed by a mind-controlled Pyrrha just to cause a scene. Penny, who had nothing to do with any of her plans up until that point.

Also: Moral Event Horizon's Laconic entry states it's "An act that puts its perpetrator beyond any chance of redemption."

I think causing a beyond brutal death of an innocent just to cause enough discontent to summon legions of Grimm would qualify there. Honestly, Cinder and her crew just seem to be piling on the villainy more and more. Any possibilities of their redemption at this point would be an Ass Pull at best.
Shaoken
11:26:18 PM Jan 20th 2016
You're missing the main point here; why is organising the severe maiming and possible death of Penny worse than trying to suck Amber's soul out through her face, murdering a man for trying to get out of a terrorist group or organising a Grimm incursion into a major population centre putting hundreds to thousands of people's lives in jeopardy? The only answer I can see here is because Penny is more popular than the rest of the victims, which does not justify it.

Also there are plenty of villains who have done similar or worse and still got redeemed without it being an Ass Pull, simply because the story was written well enough to justify it. So I say the MEH is very premature seeing as we don't even know what Cinder's backstory, motivation or true end goal is.
NNinja
12:52:28 PM Jan 24th 2016
Ok then, if we agree i'm cutting Moral Event Horizon out. If we ever agree on when exacly was it crossed and if it was crossed at all we can allways bring it back.
DAN004
11:04:14 PM Feb 10th 2016
Ain't the point of this being ymmv is that we don't need to discuss it too much, just that some people agree that it counts?
NNinja
02:12:28 AM Feb 11th 2016
YMMV does not justify incorrect usage. I didn't remove it because i disagreed that killing Penny was evil. I removed it because when i asked why were they redeemable before but not after despite simillar vilainous acts in the past no one gave me satysfying answer. Now if you can explain to me why is killing Penny worse than killing Tucson, Amber or releasing Grimm to the city i'll gladly put it back, but if no one can give me such reason then it just doesn't fit the trope.
Larkmarn
Topic
07:59:11 AM Jan 14th 2016
  • Penny's Robotic Reveal in "A Minor Hiccup". It had previously been confirmed in the earlier episode "Black and White", which shows she has a large mechanical compartment in her body that holds her swords. note 

Got changed to this:

  • Penny's Robotic Reveal in "A Minor Hiccup". It had previously been confirmed in the earlier episode "Black and White", which shows she has a large mechanical compartment in her body that holds her swords.

For being natter. That's all well and good, but if the natter is true, then claiming that is had previously been confirmed is at the very least quite misleading.
Karxrida
04:15:10 PM Jan 18th 2016
The audience still called it much earlier than it was intended to be shown, so the entry still counts. Rewording it is the best you can do.
KuroMaboroshi
Topic
10:31:23 AM Jan 3rd 2016
I have noticed some debate on the internet about the recent episodes, with some praising them for the darker tone and heavier focus on the overarching plot of Cinder's plan, and the other side pointing out various plotholes and problems with the storytelling that have occured in the wake of said change of focus.

However, the Broken Base entry is already insanely large as it is, so I don't thing adding an entry for that would be a good idea until this phenomenon becomes more wide spread (if it ever does), which I assume can be properly judged once season 3 nears its end.

Still, as it is obviously difficult to keep track of all the different communities invested in RWBY, what's everyone's experience regarding this? Anyone else run into it yet? And how far spread do you think it should be before it calls for an entry on the page?
AlisterFaust
11:16:16 PM Jan 3rd 2016
In an effort to make sure that the Broken Base does not become completely swamped by examples like you mentioned I would suggest waiting until the volume ends and then judging the reactions from the typical sites (Reddit, Tumblr, etc.) along with whatever other communities bring up valid points. As of now we have more information as to what Cinder's plan is, but clearly not to the full extent, but it most likely involves unleashing a horde of Grimm at a festival celebrating the gathering of nations, and at least one or possibly more of the maidens. The bigger theories can go under WMG and the smaller plot holes that you mentioned I feel should go under Headscratchers until they are properly answered. I am totally open to other suggestions though.
jboone93
04:30:19 AM Jan 4th 2016
You could always give the broken base its own page.
AlisterFaust
07:32:42 AM Jan 4th 2016
Oh duh. Yeah you could totally do that as well.
Wyldchyld
Topic
01:15:12 PM Nov 30th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Ensemble Darkhorse seems have turned into nothing more than a list of characters that at least some people in the fandom like. Even for YMMV entries, that's People Sit on Chairs. I've brought the list here so that we can discuss who really is an Ensemble Darkhorse, which is a non-main character that turns out to be unexpectedly popular as opposed to having been designed to be popular.

The original list is as follows:

  • Ensemble Darkhorse:
    • Melanie and Miltia (the former being a bit more popular between the two) are shaping up to be this. The twins already have a good amount of fan art, and quite a few fans hope that they have a recurring role in the actual series. They've been seen in the Volume 2 opening, so the chances are looking good.
    • Peter Port has a small group of loyal Facebook fans for his Hidden Depths and Badass Moustache.
    • Velvet Scarlatina. Mere hours after she was revealed in Episode 11, she already had fanart and fanfics of her, along with a steady fanbase, from both sides of the ocean! Monty himself has responded to this one directly in the season 2 dev diary saying that due to Velvet's popularity she would get a stronger role in the series. It's to the point that, instead of trailers for Volume 2, there was a contest for Velvet's design, and then a simple teaser image of Velvet along with the silhouettes of her teammates.
    • Penny and Sun Wukong tied in a popularity poll for best secondary characters. Penny's popularity comes from her robot origin, while Sun has a cool weapon, cool fighting style, and is considered one of the more attractive males in the cast.
    • Adam has only been seen in a single promo trailer and a brief appearance at the Volume 2 finale, yet he has quite a following.
    • Roman Torchwick is also very popular despite his fairly limited screen time and few appearances, from Tumblr to 4Chan.
    • Neo, the freaky parasol girl who swooped in to save Roman, has already started dominating fan pages with art and speculation, no doubt thanks to her intriguing appearance and trickster type powerset. This only explodes after she trounces Yang.
    • Perry, the White Fang guard who wears glasses over his mask.
    • The leader of team CFVY, Coco. She easily defeats Grimm that took all of Team RWBY and Team JNPR to defeat and does so with style!
    • There's an awful lot of people who hope the chainsaw-wielding White Fang Lieutenant that fights Weiss isn't just written off as an Elite Mook.
    • The faunus girl seen for a moment in the preview clip for Volume 3 got a lot of attention immediately, even given she appears to be purely a background character.
    • The green-eyed Elegant Gothic Lolita girl in Volume 3's trailer generated quite a bit of intrigue from the fandom. The fact that she's already-established Ensemble Darkhorse Neo in disguise can't be hurting this.
    • The "enemy" teams in the first two episode of Volume 3 got a lot of attention from the fanbase for their neat weapons and designs, along with generally putting up good fights. Particular note goes to May Zedong, the sniper on Team BRNZ.
    • Scarlet David, due to the fact that he's voiced by Gavin Free.
    • Qrow and Winter have became instant fan favorites. Qrow for being a Crazy Awesome badass and a loving drunk uncle and Winter for being a cold, badass and loving sister.


My suggestions:

Most of these entries are characters who were deliberately hyped before introduction (eg, Neo, Adam, Qrow, even Winter), designed with fanservice in mind (so popularity is an expected outcome, such as Sun and his team), or People Sit on Chairs (someone in the fandom likes them).

Neo has been discussed on the RWBY forum thread and rejected from Ensemble Darkhorse in the past because she was so hyped by the creators before her introduction.

As far as I can see from the above list, there are only four genuine examples:

  • Velvet and Roman, confirmed by the creators to be one-shot characters who were such a hit with the fans that they were given expanded roles (Velvet's team won't be darkhorses because Velvet's popularity gave her team huge hype before they ever appeared).
  • Perry and the chainsaw-wielding Faunus are bit characters who have become extremely popular beyond all proportion to their roles and they should stay.
dRoy
02:05:12 PM Dec 2nd 2015
As for Perry and the Lieutenant (or whatever his real name is), do we actually have solid evidence for their popularity?
TheLaughingFist
04:32:45 AM Dec 5th 2015
edited by TheLaughingFist
I agree with this fix, we should also add an addendum that a character has to be around for more than a season, so no adding people that are well liked on introduction, and they can't be overly important in the story in the season they are introduced.
Wyldchyld
02:55:14 PM Dec 9th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
@dRoy: I've seen people on a number of sites "meme" them, but that's just anecdotal, and whether or not it would be enough for Ensemble Darkhorse is another matter. I don't mind whether people want them associated with the trope or not, but I thought it fair to flag them since they do seem to have some kind of following at least, despite being only bit characters.

@ Laughing Fist: Would your season suggestion resolve dRoy's question? Also, is adding this addendum effectively customising the trope? Is that allowed?

Wyldchyld
06:48:07 PM Dec 14th 2015
Okay, this was added to the page as well:

  • Ensemble Darkhorse: The three unnamed finalists in the Vytal Festival Tournament have received a good deal of attention from the fanbase due to their cool designs.

So, are we adding this back as well?

At the moment, we've got Velvet and Roman for definite, and are decided on what we're doing with Perry and Banesaw?

If so, are the three unnamed finalists worthy of this or simply a current topic of conversation within the fandom?
SilenceInTheLibrary
Topic
09:27:22 PM Oct 26th 2015
Yo, give me some help on this. I figured Arryn and Barbara's comments (on how the fandom were getting way too hyped about Bumblebee/misinterpreting/taking things way too far in their appeal to the creators) might go in here somewhere. Is it Fan Dumb? It's not Creator Backlash, and I'm not sure it's Fandom Backlash. Here's my proposal:

  • Fan Dumb: The usual segment of fans that send death threats to writers isn't usually an issue, but eventually Arryn (Blake's VA) and Barbara (Yang's VA), despite supporting the ship themselves, said that fans tended to misinterpret and take Blake/Yang way too far, to say the fandom reacted well would be false.

I also do not have the source for this—I would swear I did, but it escaped my tag. Anyone got a link and know what I'm talking about?
Karxrida
09:47:51 PM Oct 26th 2015
SilenceInTheLibrary
11:34:47 AM Oct 27th 2015
Ahh. Pretend I never wrote this~.
Wyldchyld
Topic
02:20:37 PM Oct 21st 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Base Breaker entry brought here for discussion:
  • The reveal that Qrow would be voiced by Vic Mignogna in lieu of Monty's death has gotten some people angry enough to want him to be removed from the production, or even going to the lengths of boycotting RWBY and/or Rooster Teeth for picking him! The fandom is split between accepting him as Monty's replacement, and the above.


My concern is that this is very close to 'troping real life people' given that it is complaining about executive decisions that had to be made to accommodate a real life person's death. Regardless of what decision was ever made, Monty sadly could never have voiced the character, and the plot has already set up the character to be important and require dealing with. What's left is therefore to either complain or support real life decisions made in the event of a real life person's death.

Is this eligible for a YMMV entry given the circumstances?
DAN004
04:09:23 PM Oct 21st 2015
I guess they wanted Neath Oum to voice him.
Karxrida
04:27:11 PM Oct 21st 2015
  1. Should probs be Broken Base if anything.
  2. People's opinions on whether they like a certain voice actor or not is legit for this, as long as the example makes it clear that they don't like them because of their work.
Wyldchyld
12:25:21 PM Oct 23rd 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
The example doesn't actually explain why there's dislike for the voice actor. The Forum thread has suggested it's because of things the voice actor has said, which would be unrelated to the work in question and therefore not characterisation. If anything, the wording makes it sound like the issue is about replacing Monty. It's not clear how it fits the YMMV item description.

If it is a wide-spread enough enough complaint (I've never encountered it on any forums I visit, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything), I have no problem with it being a Broken Base example.
Larkmarn
12:39:40 PM Oct 23rd 2015
Technically, a writeup for Broken Base doesn't need to explain why people dislike someone, though it would be appreciated. It just needs to explain that the base is split, not necessarily give reasons.
IshiMatsu615
06:41:27 PM Dec 7th 2015
Hi, I'm the person who originally added the entry. I know why people are angry about Vic in particular (long story short, they think he's homophobic and/or a pedophile, both claims have been disproved multiple times but people still don't listen, though some people did complain about his voice as well), but I didn't think adding it in would be a good idea due to Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement and all that. The complaints were primarily on tumblr, and from what I saw people were split by this to the point I considered it a Base Breaker or Broken Base example. I also figured most of the people complaining about Vic voicing Qrow was done by people who didn't know Monty was going to voice him and thought they hired Vic just because.

Either way, proceed with the example as you see fit.
Wyldchyld
Topic
08:20:39 AM Apr 12th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
The Base Breaker entry is insanely long. I've tried to cut it down as much as I can without removing the point of what's splitting fans. Any suggestions would be great:

Base Breaker
  • The trailers showcased each member of RWBY except for the Black Trailer, where Blake shared the spotlight with Adam, and at one point was saved by him. The fandom was split between viewing the Black Trailer as an intriguing plot set-up or Adam stealing Blake's thunder before the show had even started.
  • Ruby is either viewed as a character who is learning and growing into her role as a future leader of note, or as someone who is being portrayed as too inexperienced and childish to carry the show as leader. There is also disagreement about whether her lack of screentime due to the size of the cast further harms her portrayal as leader.
  • Jaune is a lovable loser with an instinct for strategy and leadership whose story arc dealt with his lack of combat experience, how he's being bullied by Team CRDN, and how to deal with women. The fandom disagrees on whether he's an audience surrogate for introducing the world who is working hard to gain real skill in combat, leadership and socialising, or a hypocrite who needs to take his own advice about women, and who is a Butt Monkey wasting screentime that could be spent on more useful characters.
  • Penny was either an intriguing character with cool combat skills and a lovably quirky personality, or yet another new character hijacking the finale that could instead have been spent be spent on giving the main characters a chance to shine.
  • The Volume 2 finale introduces Team CFVY's fighting abilities which a lot of fans had anticipated and loved. However, it also reduced main character screen time and shifted focus away from the plot build-up in previous episodes. Fans are split between enjoying the introduction of CFVY and their abilities or criticising the loss of plot momentum and the lack of threat tension due to rushed animation as a result of the staff's very tight scheduling. Coco in particular is either praised or criticised for her overpowered destruction of the Grimm threat Team RWBY couldn't handle by themselves.
Wyldchyld
02:25:06 PM Apr 12th 2015
Removed the Jessica Nigri comment based on feedback from the forum thread.
Wyldchyld
Topic
05:19:51 PM Feb 3rd 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Harsher in Hindsight
  • The criticisms of the Season 2 finale's animation, now that it's the last thing Monty Oum completed before his untimely death.
    • Some of the songs are also harder to hear after Monty's death. Most poignantly, This Will Be the Day, Time To Say Goodbye, and Wings.
"This world's unforgiving, even brilliant lights will cease to burn..."


I have removed this to here. The comment about criticism of the final episode isn't this trope because it's talking about the impact on an audience reaction, not an in-universe event. I'm not sure about leaving the song reference, however. Any thoughts on how best to handle this?
AnotherDuck
04:45:28 PM Feb 25th 2015
edited by AnotherDuck
The ending note on on "Funny Aneurysm" Moment is: "since all actors and creators are mortal, if someone mentions death or plays a character who dies, and then die themselves, that's not a "Funny Aneurysm" Moment unless there's some connection to the circumstances of the death." While it's a different trope, they're similar enough that that still applies. I've as such removed the example. The issue has also been raised in the RWBY forum thread.
Sp8des_Slick
Topic
02:34:47 PM Sep 13th 2014
I just noticed that people are filling the Arc Fatigue section with nothing but Jaune.

We might have to rename that section Jaune Arc Fatigue.
DAN004
Topic
08:25:52 PM Jan 7th 2014
Can someone explain where the name "Pollination" come from and how it describe an OT 4? :/
Larkmarn
08:54:08 PM Jan 7th 2014
Pollination = Bumblebee + White Rose.

Bees pollinate flowers, so pollination is a process that involves both bees and roses. I've... never heard the term before and it does kinda reek of a troper getting too clever but to be perfectly frank I don't have my ear to the ground on this fandom.
DAN004
06:26:16 PM Jan 10th 2014
Ah, I see. Clever name :D
Larkmarn
Topic
08:34:11 AM Nov 7th 2013
Pulled this before it got into an edit war:

  • Unfortunate Implications: The Faunus, the Token Minority group of the story, have recently begun to have a greater presence in the narrative. Their main outstanding feature is their being half-human and half-animal...but the only animals seen so far are the Grimm, pitch black demon-like creatures that are usually killed on sight. So, this raises a question of where the hybrid species came from.

Personally, I'm not certain what the Implications here are. Is it an implication of... bestiality? Except I never got the idea that Faunuses (fauni?) were Half-Human Hybrids in the sense they had a human parent and an animal parent, so much as just a separate species that's a Little Bit Beastly.
Greenmonk
09:39:14 AM Nov 7th 2013
edited by 174.240.0.130
But how do you get that seperate species, especially with so many variants? Pretty much all examples of Little Bit Beastly are either a biological experiment or demons. The Grimm are the closest thing to demons we've got and we've yet to establish whether or not this world even has regular animals or the technology to bond animal and human DNA, let alone create an entire species for whatever reason.

So, it doesn't directly point to bestiality, and I hope I'm wrong, but right now it is an Unfortunate Implication.
Larkmarn
10:08:51 AM Nov 7th 2013
That's meeting the implication more than halfway, I think. You're assuming (for some reason) the only reason that that a Little Bit Beastly are because of cross-breeding, rather than the idea that they're just, you know, a species (which is how they've been shown so far). And then you're assuming that the cross breeding must be with the Grimm even though we haven't seen any cat, monkey, or rabbit Grimm (let alone that they'd be compatible with human DNA). Not to mention, it's explicitly a fantastic setting. Any number of Aura or Dust-based explanations could exist.
Greenmonk
01:50:47 PM Nov 7th 2013
...I'm not crazy. YOU'RE crazy! AHAHAHAHAHA

  • crashes through glass window and runs off cackling into the night*
Wyldchyld
02:20:10 PM Oct 21st 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Wrong location.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=YMMV.RWBY