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Eagal
topic
11:15:20 PM Sep 30th 2014
edited by 71.170.147.60
    Regina 
  • Regina. It's very, very hard to pick just one, and it's very, very hard to agree on one, but most fans definitely think she crossed it while watching Season 1. After watching Season 2 (particularly after 2x02 and 2x05), they can hardly reach any consensus at all.
    • Her treatment of Henry: trying to push him into thinking that the curse wasn't real and thus making him believe that he was crazy (though his therapist and her both being very cautious not to use that terminology, she did trick Emma into using it in order to drive her away from her son, but the deleted scenes reveal that she was kind of surprised by how attached to her he already was), all in order to protect herself/the curse. Then trying to kill members of Henry's family—on multiple occasions—sometimes not even checking whether he was here and therefore doing it right in front of him. Then trying to put him under a love curse because she remains absolutely sure that having her loving him is the best thing that can happen to him and refuses to confront her flaws. Also, some fans consider Regina telling Henry about her plan to destroy Storybrooke, kill everyone living there, and kidnap Henry back to FTL, then erasing his memory of the conversation, one as well.
      • Then, it's made clear that though she clearly has no qualms about emotionally/mentally scarring the son she claims to love for life, unlike other villainous abusive parents on the show, she always genuinely believes in the excuses she finds to keep him around and cannot understand Henry's reactions. Trying to become the mother she always wanted to have turned her into a Knight Templar Parent, and when she realizes this after countless traumas caused by her missing the significance of his relationship with his biological mother, it takes her a very traumatic scene reminding her of her own mother to make her decide to turn herself around... a heartfelt resolution that gets thrown by the window the second her abandonment issues are resolved and her loneliness reawakened by her mother's semi-redemption and death.
    • The Queen killing her own father, explicitly the one thing she loved more than anything else. Though it is less of one for her and more of one for other characters if you were willing to accept the Sympathetic Murder Backstory on the death of her father ( he watched her be physically and emotionally abused by her mother for years). Also, she feels enormous remorse about it.
    • Alternatively, her repeated rape and later the murder of Graham certainly qualifies. Graham was an amnesiac whose memory she had rewritten so that he would stay with her, and he had apparently felt something was wrong since a long time. This is confirmed in Welcome to Storybrooke, where everyone's personalities were essentially chosen by Regina and many fans thought Graham clearly had no choice whatsoever. Regina could even use his heart to direct him, like a puppet. It stays to be confirmed whether Regina really knew what she was doing or not, as the writers and actress's statements make it look as if Adam and Edie and she by extension thought of it as of a real relationship, but it definitely wasn't.
    • Even if Leopold was a neglectful bore of a husband who saw her mother's acceptance of his proposal as a valid answer when she was still a teenager, even if he knew that he would never make her happy, and expected her to stay faithful to him and miserable for all the deades of the duration of the marriage, even if he may have planned to kill her potential lover, was it really necessary to pull a Wounded Gazelle Gambit on the yet innocent Genie smitten with her, get him to kill Leopold for her, and then let the Genie plunge into eternal servitude as her magic mirror ? Mostly when watching the consequence in 1x07 and Snow's reaction. You could have just bribed a guard!
    • And if you were wiling to accept even that possibility and still forgive her, then the revelation that she's kept Belle (who, unlike Snow White or the Huntsman, never crossed her or did her any harm at all) shut away in a mental ward for twenty eight years, presumably either to keep her quiet or as some sort of bargaining chip against Mr. Gold might just do it. Although then again, Regina just shows a Cycle of Vengeance mindset (taking leverage material to deal with what she knows, is almost evil incarnate but with very human qualities such as a fondness for Belle, and nearly omnipotent), while Rumple already demonstrated his capacity to screw her life over more than needed at that point in the chronology. Some fans tend to too easily dismiss it as a sort of Karmic Retribution for Rumple and No Sympathy towards Belle.. Regardless of how much Regina deserves pity rather than scorn, the point remains that she deliberately hurt an innocent victim (Belle), in cool blood, which contributes into making her Not So Different with Rumple, no matter how much this displeases fans trying to scapegoat him for the event.
    • All the murders and the later kidnapping can be argued to acceptable losses to further her plans. But sending defenseless CHILD after CHILD into a cannibal witch's house to retrieve the poisoned apple crosses it. She's shown she could have taken care of the Blind Witch herself (via mirrors and fireballs), even though that would have costed her her revenge, making her look worse when she sends Hansel and Gretel in. Without remorse or hesitation she sent over a DOZEN kids to certain doom just to get a MacGuffin just to screw over ONE PERSON. ONE PERSON.
    • She was involved in Kathryn's disappearance and attempted to commit a murder. She then uses her supposed friend's death to screw over someone who's already miserable, and for kicks she also makes Sidney, who's hopelessly in love with her, confess to the crime.
    • What she did to Jefferson; deliberately screwing him over so that she could get her father back (who she'll kill later anyway, rendering the whole Wonderland trip meaningless) and then hypocritically shooting his words 'You don't leave family' back at him, before leaving him behind to be separated from his daughter forever - as well as from his head, if only for a while. BITCH. Though she gets a Sympathetic Murder Backstory-ish storyline AGAIN, since, before his daughter was even born, Jefferson was The Hedonist and helped drive her insane in exchange from some material help from Rumplestiltskin.
    • Regina trying to get Kurt and Owen to stay in Storybrooke and, when that didn't work, chasing them down like criminals, having Kurt arrested and thus depriving Owen of his father. Who cares if she cried in remorse? That was dreadful. To be fair, she was genuinely remorseful over what she did when she sees Owen crying for his father and she learned her lesson in the present time, as evidenced by destroying the love curse rather than forcing Henry to be her perfect, loving son, but still, her selfish actions back then have now put everyone in Storybrooke in jeopardy in the present day, as Owen is back and out to prove that magic exists to the whole world. (Oh, and she killed Kurt as well.)
    • Twisting Belle's memories and personality into a hard-partying Dark Chick. Did Belle do anything to Regina? Nope. It's all because Regina doesn't have the guts or power to face Rumplestiltskin directly, so she'll attack him through the innocent girl serving as his Morality Chain who did nothing more than support him and accidentally help framing her, in a dark mirrored version of what he did to Prince Henry.
    • In "The Evil Queen", she has a village destroyed and all it's inhabitants slaughtered back in the Enchanted Forest. And even though she looks as if she just realizes what she asked when she finds them before the apple incident, in the present, she's planning on doing the same to Storybrooke and all the people in it, and mind-wipes Henry of this plan so that he won't try to stop her. This also ends up directly enabling Tamara and Greg's Moral Event Horizon of doing the same thing, making Regina doubly guilty.

     Rumplestiltskin 
Like for Regina, there is no fan consensus on whether he is redeemable or is not.
  • Creating the damn curse to start with may qualify. While wanting to find his son is a sympathetic Freudian Excuse, ruining the lives of all around him to do so is just heinous, and even more when you realize there were other ways in 2x04 and he used the curse because it allowed him to keep his powers.
  • What makes all this even worse is that, when his son returns, he is happy spending his time with Belle. He doesn't visit him, try to repair the damage he caused or learn more about his grandson. To be fair, he has been shown spending a lot of time watching his son. Given how things played out in "Manhattan", maybe Gold doesn't know how to talk to his son.
  • Later, encouraging Regina to kill her own father.He starts by grasping her throat as if he was going to strangle her, then giggles through his whole rant, probably rejoicing because poor Henry ended up with the woman he loved in the past.
  • In The Price Of Gold, killing an innocent, benevolent woman whose job is to make desperate people happy without hidden side-consequences. This means he may have put thousands of Happy Endings into jeopardy, when he could have just locked her somewhere. Then, manipulating Ashley and trying to insult the memory of a beloved character whom, on a meta-level he cheated of her usual importance.
  • What Rumplestiltskin did to Regina, as shown in "We Are Both" and onward. While Cora started Regina down the road to darkness, Rumple made damn sure she continued down it, but he always insisted that the choice was hers, and that it was her fault, not his. Made worse by the fact that this may still be Revenge by Proxy on Cora.
  • Torturing Robin Hood. He hurts him and heals him, just because he feels some perverse satisfaction in punishing others for challenging a power they can't handle. Made better by letting Robin Hood go after Rumple found out Robin Hood wanted the magic wand to save his pregnant wife. Belle evens calls him out on it.
  • Later on, trying to harm Henry, his son's son, without concern for Neal's happiness, or any demonstration of remorse, just out of self-preservation. Made better by his rescue attempt afterwards.
  • To start with a disagreeable pattern, ripping out Milah's heart, whatever your opinion on whether she had a right to seek her own happiness or should have stayed with a family who loved her. Though that one can also come across as a crime of passion and he really only begins to lose control when he calls her out for abandoning Bae.
  • King George:
    • He dove over this line in "Child Of The Moon" by killing a man in cold blood, framing his murder on the innocent (and already guilt-ridden) Ruby, almost killing her, and then destroying the Mad Hatter's hat (which, in Storybrooke, is the only known way to get Emma and Snow back), all in the name of a grudge on Charming, not even any of the people that he screwed over during the episode!
    • Imprisoning Charming and attempting to have him executed just because he didn't go along with his Arranged Marriage, and then cursing Snow to a childless life. Evil Is Petty, indeed. Oh, and he killed his mother.

     Hook 
  • Attempting to kill Belle, simply because she was of no use to him. Also then later shooting Belle and letting her fall over the Storybrooke line so she'd lose her memories was a real dick move. Though by then it's become apparent Hook is more interested in making Rumple miserable and some kind of inverted Suicide by Cop, at least since he can't kill him.
  • Some Sleeping Hook shippers were put off by Hook stealing Aurora's heart while she was unconscious. Some viewers started shipping the two because of that scene. Some consider this a subversion, as Hook also ends up saving her heart when it's about to be lost forever.
  • Selling out Bae, the son of the woman he loved, to the Lost Boys. The tragic thing about this one is that they were genuinely bonding. Hook started out using him for information to kill Rumple, but they bonded over being abandoned and almost became a family. It all went to hell when Bae found out that Milah left his family for Hook and refused to be on the ship any longer. Rather than let him go, Hook sells Bae for his own safety and that of his crew.

     Zelena 

(Wicked Witch of the West)
  • Turning the Wizard of Oz into her first Flying Monkey, though it was borderline [1]. Sending him to "divert" Emma (though said monkey is originally human, neither of them seems to have had full knowledge of their actions, paralleling Graham.)
  • Caging an obviously insane and tortured Rumple, and forcing Rumple to attack Belle using the dagger, after giving her a Hope Spot.
  • The above is topped later when she forces him to threaten Robin Hood's son, a CHILD.
  • Setting up Baelfire to be killed, and then torturing Rumple and Emma with it.
  • Planning to unmake all of reality and the timeline so Cora will keep her, proving to be just as ruthless as her mother in her devotion to attaining her goals.
  • And, to top the list, kidnapping a newborn baby to use in her time-travel spell, which may or may not have killed it.

So then. Keeping in mind that the Moral Event Horizon can only be crossed once, what is the first, worst crime Regina et al committed? Discuss.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
01:00:13 AM Oct 1st 2014
People can disagree on which moment is th Moral Event Horizon, so more than one can be listed.
Eagal
09:19:56 AM Oct 1st 2014
That completely defeats the point of specifying that the character can only cross it once. Listing every bad thing a character's ever done and saying "Oh well, everyone has a different idea of which one was worse" is a cop-out.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
10:30:44 AM Oct 1st 2014
Yes, and people will disagree where it is crossed. Completely different thing than "crossed multiple times". You can specify "Moral Event Horizon: There are several candidates for Character X: [Subbullets listing the moments]".
VeryMelon
07:17:00 PM Oct 1st 2014
edited by 72.66.98.196
Regina , Rumplestiltskin , and Hook shouldn't be up there in the first place. It is not "that villain that I hate", it's "that villain is has not one single little not-evil quality to them and makes every other comparable villain in the story look less evil just by their presence." Moral Event Horizon is the point where redemption short of death is an impossibility, and these guys don't count because they have been presented as redeemable without the need for such extremes.

For Zelena, just use that last bullet. Sacrificing a baby for anything is always a good MEH. In fact, since that baby is needed for her to go back in time and unmake reality to be raised by Corra, you can just fuse the last 2 bullets together.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
01:08:23 AM Oct 2nd 2014
Methinks you are confusing the trope with Complete Monster. Moral Event Horizon is "this action indicates that the villain is irredeemably evil".
VeryMelon
09:59:51 AM Oct 2nd 2014
edited by 72.66.98.196
No, I'm not confusing anything. We're actually saying the same thing now. Regina , Rumplestiltskin , and Hook have not done anything that painted them as irredeemably evil so they should not be listed here.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
10:38:21 AM Oct 2nd 2014
"that villain is has not one single little not-evil quality to them and makes every other comparable villain in the story look less evil just by their presence." has nothing to do with Moral Event Horizon and all to do with Complete Monster.

Anyhow, since Moral Event Horizon doesn't have a repair effort, its examples work under standard YMMV rules and thus a mere opinion disagreement is not a reason for removal.
VeryMelon
02:16:11 PM Oct 2nd 2014
You're still misreading me, but I'm going to drop this if that's how the conversation is going to play out.
EMY3K
topic
12:53:09 PM May 6th 2014
  • Lying to Belle that he won't kill Zelena and tricking her through a marriage proposal used as a distraction to claim his dagger from her and switch it out with a fake so that when he actually does, in fact, kill Zelena, Belle won't suspect it was him who did it since she seemingly still has the dagger.

I'm not arguing that what Rumple did was a Jerkass move but calling it a Moral Event Horizon is a little harsh. Given the Trauma Conga Line Zelena put Rumple through, lying to Belle about killing Zelena more qualifies as Kick the Dog. It's not like he lied to her to kill an innocent person or for his own selfish purposes. He was trying to avenge his son. I agree he shouldn't have killed her, but it doesn't make him irredeemable.
Silverblade2
topic
02:25:40 AM May 3rd 2014
edited by 81.246.192.26
  • Creator's Pet: Regina. Possibly because she's one of the fandom's most favorite characters. All other characters who've had their hearts taken out are incable of love and become weaker people. When Regina takes out her heart, it doesn't affect her at all in the slightest.

Please read the main page!

"The Creator's Pet is a combination of being:

Unless it meets all of these criteria, it doesn't fit."

Let's see about Regina: Hated by fans She's a Base Breaker but not universally hated

Loved (or worshipped) by the writers: I don't know

Put into big scenes for no reason: Nope she's one of the main characters

Talked up by the other characters: Nope, she's hated by the town even after her Heel-Face Turn

Then I don't see how is she a Creator's Pet
Hodor
03:29:07 PM May 3rd 2014
Amusingly, the example itself comments that Regina is "one of the fandom's most favorite characters", which lends further weight to the argument she doesn't count.
EricW
topic
09:48:10 PM Mar 10th 2014
Would you say this work has the Howitz producers in the middle of a Tough Act to Follow with this show following on their crazy Noighnties Drama LOST? Or has the show managed to step outside of that show's shadow if only because it's premise is a bit more coherent?
Keshia
topic
03:55:17 PM Dec 23rd 2013
Is there a reason any mention of Swan Queen gets erased from the page? It's a popular ship. Surely mentioning it on the page is necessary.
EMY3K
topic
04:25:20 PM Aug 20th 2013
I cut this. I'm not sure if it applies.

  • Arguably, very, very arguably, exploiting the seer in Manhattan. She is a child and he proves that, without Freudian Excuse, he is ready to threaten an handicaped child in a cage with physical violence. Must we really ignore this because she has eyes on her hands ?

Despite the fact that she was a child, she was a prisoner of war and Rumple didn't start threatening her until she alluded to the prophecy that would leave his son fatherless. He misinterpreted and thought she meant that he was going to die. At the time, he didn't fully believe her and thought she was trying to scare him. It's not like he lashed out at her for no reason. While it's not an excuse, freaking out upon hearing bad news of that magnitude is hardly a sign by itself that he's an irredeemable monster.

Besides, given that she was gone by the next time he tried to get clarification, wouldn't that imply that she had the upper hand?
EMY3K
topic
06:41:22 PM Jul 29th 2013
Removed this:

I'm trying to remember a time when the Charmings' allies believed this. In season one, Snow and Chrarming made their allies by helping them with their problems. (Abigail with Fredrick, Red with the wolf, ect.). So when Snow and Charming needed help it only made sense that their allies helped them out. We just see more of the latter because as main characters we mostly saw the conflict of the Charmings and Emma. Also, Snow and Charming needed more help. It wasn't that their allies saw them as the most important thing ever.
Em7
topic
03:58:56 PM Apr 29th 2013
I've just cut this whole section:

Canon Sue: * Canon Sue: One of the unfortunate pitfalls when you're re-inventing the classic Fairy Tales.
  • Emma Swan. Every character but the primary villains loves her, she gets away with everything (including witnessed vandalism and other crimes), and rises in the ranks of the police force in a matter of a few weeks of entering the town. She's also inherited her mother's beauty and father's nobility, and both parents' badassitudes. She fits the classic trappings of Mary Sue. Except, this of of course being YMMV, she has shown character flaws in her life, like stooping to Regina's level and having it come back to bite her. She openly acknowledges there is right and wrong and knows she crossed the line. Hence her accepting of Regina's command for her to stay away from Henry. She may not like Regina but she does respect her own moral code and will accept punishment for violating it. Whether that rescues her from Suedom though differs from viewer to viewer. She gets away with vandalism in the second episode because Graham is already crushing on her, and he's concerned enough for Henry to step in and try to stop the back-and-forth fighting between her and Regina. Also, Graham is her only (brief) love interest in Season 1 (it's even implied that August was only flirting to get close to her). And other characters don't automatically like her—she makes barely any close friends in the first season and works hard to earn other characters' approval and trust. (ie. Archie initially sets her up to get arrested but warms to her when he sees how she handles Henry. Ruby initially lies to her to protect Ashley but warms to her as the series goes on. Sidney and August both approach her because they need to be close to her to further their own agenda.) She does rise quickly to the position of Sheriff, but the deputy position can be explained (again) through Graham's developing feelings for her, and she becomes sheriff after his death through a combination of being the only person willing to challenge Regina's pick and Mr. Gold's Batman Gambit to get her to win.
  • Another candidate would be Snow White, particularly as Mary Margaret as a Purity Sue. However, "Heart of Darkness", "The Queen Is Dead", and especially "The Miller's Daughter", deconstruct this big time.
  • And Rumplestiltskin as Villain Sue. He's in every Fairy Tale practically, makes both Regina and Emma his puppets, and has a tragic backstory. The only reason he gets away with so much is his actor's own talent and charisma.. This is somewhat deconstructed later. While he can see into the future, what he sees is only vague pieces that never play out the way he expects them to. Also, his inability to let go of power and temper has done nothing but backfire on him, and it is being strongly hinted that they will continue to backfire in the future....

Since the entry seems to be more about how none of the characters are actually Sues (which makes sense given the definition) I'm not sure why it needed to be there at all.
EricW
12:46:37 AM May 13th 2013
As much as this is YMMV, can we add to YMMV about Henry being a Canon Sue? I mean, he set the plot into motion, tried to keep emma on the straight and narrow path, can be rather mean at times while getting apologies from everyone, as well as kinda well, I don't know, UNITING THE VILLAINS AND HEROES AT THE END OF SEASON 2 WHEN THEY'D BEEN ENEMIES OR ANTAGONISTS BEFORE THEN? A little Suey all things considered.
EMY3K
07:53:30 AM Jul 23rd 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
I don't think Henry's a Sue at all. He's a ten-year-old boy. He's precocious for his age, but he can also be passive-aggressive when he's upset and slow to forgive. The last two are a bit immature, but it would be odd not to see immaturity in a ten-year-old. He's a child, after all. As for uniting everyone, that made perfect sense, too. He's related to them all. He's Regina and Emma's son. He's also Charming, Snow and Gold's grandson. (Although in Gold's case, he mostly joined the union in honor of Neal's memory). Henry can't control who's he's related to.

I also don't think any of the above are Sues.
AnewMan
topic
09:59:05 AM Apr 26th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Can we add Regina herself to Base Breaker and/or The Scrappy? It seems like everyone (especially on Television Without Pity forums) hates her, deems her the Creator's Pet, and believe her to be a Complete Monster.
Em7
03:59:56 PM Apr 29th 2013
Base breaker makes more sense to me. A lot of tumblr seems to really like her.
EMY3K
topic
12:42:33 PM Feb 13th 2013
edited by EMY3K
  • When Regina quite understandably objects to Emma and Gold taking Henry with them to New York, Snow says that Emma "doesn't have to run anything by her". Apparently, the rights of the biological mother trump those of the adoptive mother.

I don't know if this one counts. Cora, Regina's mother had been presented as a legitimate threat to everybody in Storybrook. Henry, especially, would be a target. It made sense to get him out of the line of fire. It wasn't about the rights of one parent over the other. Regina already knew that Cora was back and Archie was still alive. Anyway, with Regina in hiding, there wasn't a way to contact her. Besides, it was revealed in a previous episode that Snow has gone through the wringer trying to redeem Regina when Snow won her throne back. It's very understandable that Snow didn't have the patience for much more.
Keshia
11:55:39 AM Feb 18th 2013
edited by Keshia
I'm going to side with EMY 3 K on this. I never liked the way this series portrayed adoption. I thought it was wildly inappropriate that Snow (Henry's TEACHER) and Archie (a therapist who should have known better) helped/encouraged Emma to hang around. If they weren't cursed fairy tale characters, it would have awful. It was part of the reason I had mixed feelings about Season 1.

However... Regina shouldn't have been given custody of Henry in the first place. Yes, she loves him. Yes, her back story is miserable and she is to be pitied rather than hated. Yes, the adoptive mother should have NO rights. But no, Regina is not a fit parent.

She's shown repeatedly to be incapable of giving Henry the emotional support he needs. He would have grown up being the ONLY PERSON IN STORYBROOKE WHO WAS AGING. There was no way that would have ended well. Regina lost custody of Henry when one of her convoluted plans nearly got him killed. Ignoring what she did in the fairy tale world... she still MURDERED Graham, plotted to murder Katherine and tried to poison Emma. She shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Henry.

You could argue that the series portrayal of adoptive/biological parents is unfortunate though...Emma=good guy, Regina=bad guy.
EricW
10:54:31 PM May 13th 2013
I suppose that this is the great wrangling that the show's gonna have to work out: somehow, they're gonna try to get to a point about how both parents can be fit, and some kind of "shared custody" arrangement's gonna be hammered out. Eddie and Adam admitted that this is a problem with the show at Pallyfest 2013, but said that apparently, their only saving grace away from a totally negative portrayal on adoption is Pinocchio and Gepetto. Now if only we could see HIS backstory where he comes to life to confirm this.
Keshia
topic
03:04:01 PM Jan 14th 2013
Is it just me or is the Moral Event Horizon particularly nattery? Isn't supposed to be one act that pushes the character into the irredeemably evil section?

Which is a little odd, because the show tends to act like there IS no Moral Event Horizon and that no character is irredeemably evil.
EricW
10:50:23 PM May 13th 2013
Hmm, that's why it's YMMV. The fans might declare one of these characters without hope, but within the show itself, there will always be someone who still believes in them. That's the nature of fairy tales after all.
ANewMan
10:18:43 AM Dec 18th 2013
edited by 98.25.4.230
"There IS no Moral Event Horizon and no character is irredeemably evil" got thrown out the window by Peter Pan.

Though I agree that we should watch what gets called a Moral Event Horizon moment. Especially when we got an action by the Blue Fairy labeled as this, even though the trope by definition is "crossing the line and never coming back", whereas Blue DID come back by making amends with Tink in the end and expressing regret for being such a Jerk Ass.

Also, it's now really unlikely that any of Hook's actions can be called crossing the Moral Event Horizon, since he's easily the most redeemable of the major villains.
Hodor
11:59:50 AM Dec 18th 2013
I partly agree, partly disagree.

Pan seems to be the first irredeemably evil villain (in terms of major characters) on the show, but he was unique in having no guilt/remorse for his actions.

Regina, Rumpel, and Cora all exhibit guilt/remorse, but all also committed deeds that would qualify for Moral Event Horizon.

Which is why I think the term "irredeemably evil" can be confusing. Those characters have more in the bad side of the ledger than the good side, but after crossing the line, do "come back" to some degree.

As Rumpel suggested and Regina agreed, the Moral Event Horizon means "they've (probably) done too much bad to get a happy ending", but I'd have a hard time calling them irredeemable.

As for Hook, his attempt to kill Belle was a big Kick the Dog moment, but he's definitely redeemed himself to a significant degree since then.
jarxon6
10:20:38 PM Jan 12th 2014
When does Cora express remorse? From what I've seen, she's pretty much a legitimate Complete Monster whenever she appears.
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