What's Happening



collapse/expand topics ykttw archive back to YMMV/OnceUponATime


12:53:09 PM May 6th 2014
  • Lying to Belle that he won't kill Zelena and tricking her through a marriage proposal used as a distraction to claim his dagger from her and switch it out with a fake so that when he actually does, in fact, kill Zelena, Belle won't suspect it was him who did it since she seemingly still has the dagger.

I'm not arguing that what Rumple did was a Jerkass move but calling it a Moral Event Horizon is a little harsh. Given the Trauma Conga Line Zelena put Rumple through, lying to Belle about killing Zelena more qualifies as Kick the Dog. It's not like he lied to her to kill an innocent person or for his own selfish purposes. He was trying to avenge his son. I agree he shouldn't have killed her, but it doesn't make him irredeemable.
02:25:40 AM May 3rd 2014
edited by
  • Creator's Pet: Regina. Possibly because she's one of the fandom's most favorite characters. All other characters who've had their hearts taken out are incable of love and become weaker people. When Regina takes out her heart, it doesn't affect her at all in the slightest.

Please read the main page!

"The Creator's Pet is a combination of being:

Unless it meets all of these criteria, it doesn't fit."

Let's see about Regina: Hated by fans She's a Base Breaker but not universally hated

Loved (or worshipped) by the writers: I don't know

Put into big scenes for no reason: Nope she's one of the main characters

Talked up by the other characters: Nope, she's hated by the town even after her Heel-Face Turn

Then I don't see how is she a Creator's Pet
03:29:07 PM May 3rd 2014
Amusingly, the example itself comments that Regina is "one of the fandom's most favorite characters", which lends further weight to the argument she doesn't count.
09:48:10 PM Mar 10th 2014
Would you say this work has the Howitz producers in the middle of a Tough Act to Follow with this show following on their crazy Noighnties Drama LOST? Or has the show managed to step outside of that show's shadow if only because it's premise is a bit more coherent?
03:55:17 PM Dec 23rd 2013
Is there a reason any mention of Swan Queen gets erased from the page? It's a popular ship. Surely mentioning it on the page is necessary.
04:25:20 PM Aug 20th 2013
I cut this. I'm not sure if it applies.

  • Arguably, very, very arguably, exploiting the seer in Manhattan. She is a child and he proves that, without Freudian Excuse, he is ready to threaten an handicaped child in a cage with physical violence. Must we really ignore this because she has eyes on her hands ?

Despite the fact that she was a child, she was a prisoner of war and Rumple didn't start threatening her until she alluded to the prophecy that would leave his son fatherless. He misinterpreted and thought she meant that he was going to die. At the time, he didn't fully believe her and thought she was trying to scare him. It's not like he lashed out at her for no reason. While it's not an excuse, freaking out upon hearing bad news of that magnitude is hardly a sign by itself that he's an irredeemable monster.

Besides, given that she was gone by the next time he tried to get clarification, wouldn't that imply that she had the upper hand?
06:41:22 PM Jul 29th 2013
Removed this:

I'm trying to remember a time when the Charmings' allies believed this. In season one, Snow and Chrarming made their allies by helping them with their problems. (Abigail with Fredrick, Red with the wolf, ect.). So when Snow and Charming needed help it only made sense that their allies helped them out. We just see more of the latter because as main characters we mostly saw the conflict of the Charmings and Emma. Also, Snow and Charming needed more help. It wasn't that their allies saw them as the most important thing ever.
03:58:56 PM Apr 29th 2013
I've just cut this whole section:

Canon Sue: * Canon Sue: One of the unfortunate pitfalls when you're re-inventing the classic Fairy Tales.
  • Emma Swan. Every character but the primary villains loves her, she gets away with everything (including witnessed vandalism and other crimes), and rises in the ranks of the police force in a matter of a few weeks of entering the town. She's also inherited her mother's beauty and father's nobility, and both parents' badassitudes. She fits the classic trappings of Mary Sue. Except, this of of course being YMMV, she has shown character flaws in her life, like stooping to Regina's level and having it come back to bite her. She openly acknowledges there is right and wrong and knows she crossed the line. Hence her accepting of Regina's command for her to stay away from Henry. She may not like Regina but she does respect her own moral code and will accept punishment for violating it. Whether that rescues her from Suedom though differs from viewer to viewer. She gets away with vandalism in the second episode because Graham is already crushing on her, and he's concerned enough for Henry to step in and try to stop the back-and-forth fighting between her and Regina. Also, Graham is her only (brief) love interest in Season 1 (it's even implied that August was only flirting to get close to her). And other characters don't automatically like her—she makes barely any close friends in the first season and works hard to earn other characters' approval and trust. (ie. Archie initially sets her up to get arrested but warms to her when he sees how she handles Henry. Ruby initially lies to her to protect Ashley but warms to her as the series goes on. Sidney and August both approach her because they need to be close to her to further their own agenda.) She does rise quickly to the position of Sheriff, but the deputy position can be explained (again) through Graham's developing feelings for her, and she becomes sheriff after his death through a combination of being the only person willing to challenge Regina's pick and Mr. Gold's Batman Gambit to get her to win.
  • Another candidate would be Snow White, particularly as Mary Margaret as a Purity Sue. However, "Heart of Darkness", "The Queen Is Dead", and especially "The Miller's Daughter", deconstruct this big time.
  • And Rumplestiltskin as Villain Sue. He's in every Fairy Tale practically, makes both Regina and Emma his puppets, and has a tragic backstory. The only reason he gets away with so much is his actor's own talent and charisma.. This is somewhat deconstructed later. While he can see into the future, what he sees is only vague pieces that never play out the way he expects them to. Also, his inability to let go of power and temper has done nothing but backfire on him, and it is being strongly hinted that they will continue to backfire in the future....

Since the entry seems to be more about how none of the characters are actually Sues (which makes sense given the definition) I'm not sure why it needed to be there at all.
12:46:37 AM May 13th 2013
As much as this is YMMV, can we add to YMMV about Henry being a Canon Sue? I mean, he set the plot into motion, tried to keep emma on the straight and narrow path, can be rather mean at times while getting apologies from everyone, as well as kinda well, I don't know, UNITING THE VILLAINS AND HEROES AT THE END OF SEASON 2 WHEN THEY'D BEEN ENEMIES OR ANTAGONISTS BEFORE THEN? A little Suey all things considered.
07:53:30 AM Jul 23rd 2013
edited by
I don't think Henry's a Sue at all. He's a ten-year-old boy. He's precocious for his age, but he can also be passive-aggressive when he's upset and slow to forgive. The last two are a bit immature, but it would be odd not to see immaturity in a ten-year-old. He's a child, after all. As for uniting everyone, that made perfect sense, too. He's related to them all. He's Regina and Emma's son. He's also Charming, Snow and Gold's grandson. (Although in Gold's case, he mostly joined the union in honor of Neal's memory). Henry can't control who's he's related to.

I also don't think any of the above are Sues.
09:59:05 AM Apr 26th 2013
edited by
Can we add Regina herself to Base Breaker and/or The Scrappy? It seems like everyone (especially on Television Without Pity forums) hates her, deems her the Creator's Pet, and believe her to be a Complete Monster.
03:59:56 PM Apr 29th 2013
Base breaker makes more sense to me. A lot of tumblr seems to really like her.
12:42:33 PM Feb 13th 2013
edited by EMY3K
  • When Regina quite understandably objects to Emma and Gold taking Henry with them to New York, Snow says that Emma "doesn't have to run anything by her". Apparently, the rights of the biological mother trump those of the adoptive mother.

I don't know if this one counts. Cora, Regina's mother had been presented as a legitimate threat to everybody in Storybrook. Henry, especially, would be a target. It made sense to get him out of the line of fire. It wasn't about the rights of one parent over the other. Regina already knew that Cora was back and Archie was still alive. Anyway, with Regina in hiding, there wasn't a way to contact her. Besides, it was revealed in a previous episode that Snow has gone through the wringer trying to redeem Regina when Snow won her throne back. It's very understandable that Snow didn't have the patience for much more.
11:55:39 AM Feb 18th 2013
edited by Keshia
I'm going to side with EMY 3 K on this. I never liked the way this series portrayed adoption. I thought it was wildly inappropriate that Snow (Henry's TEACHER) and Archie (a therapist who should have known better) helped/encouraged Emma to hang around. If they weren't cursed fairy tale characters, it would have awful. It was part of the reason I had mixed feelings about Season 1.

However... Regina shouldn't have been given custody of Henry in the first place. Yes, she loves him. Yes, her back story is miserable and she is to be pitied rather than hated. Yes, the adoptive mother should have NO rights. But no, Regina is not a fit parent.

She's shown repeatedly to be incapable of giving Henry the emotional support he needs. He would have grown up being the ONLY PERSON IN STORYBROOKE WHO WAS AGING. There was no way that would have ended well. Regina lost custody of Henry when one of her convoluted plans nearly got him killed. Ignoring what she did in the fairy tale world... she still MURDERED Graham, plotted to murder Katherine and tried to poison Emma. She shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Henry.

You could argue that the series portrayal of adoptive/biological parents is unfortunate though...Emma=good guy, Regina=bad guy.
10:54:31 PM May 13th 2013
I suppose that this is the great wrangling that the show's gonna have to work out: somehow, they're gonna try to get to a point about how both parents can be fit, and some kind of "shared custody" arrangement's gonna be hammered out. Eddie and Adam admitted that this is a problem with the show at Pallyfest 2013, but said that apparently, their only saving grace away from a totally negative portrayal on adoption is Pinocchio and Gepetto. Now if only we could see HIS backstory where he comes to life to confirm this.
03:04:01 PM Jan 14th 2013
Is it just me or is the Moral Event Horizon particularly nattery? Isn't supposed to be one act that pushes the character into the irredeemably evil section?

Which is a little odd, because the show tends to act like there IS no Moral Event Horizon and that no character is irredeemably evil.
10:50:23 PM May 13th 2013
Hmm, that's why it's YMMV. The fans might declare one of these characters without hope, but within the show itself, there will always be someone who still believes in them. That's the nature of fairy tales after all.
10:18:43 AM Dec 18th 2013
edited by
"There IS no Moral Event Horizon and no character is irredeemably evil" got thrown out the window by Peter Pan.

Though I agree that we should watch what gets called a Moral Event Horizon moment. Especially when we got an action by the Blue Fairy labeled as this, even though the trope by definition is "crossing the line and never coming back", whereas Blue DID come back by making amends with Tink in the end and expressing regret for being such a Jerk Ass.

Also, it's now really unlikely that any of Hook's actions can be called crossing the Moral Event Horizon, since he's easily the most redeemable of the major villains.
11:59:50 AM Dec 18th 2013
I partly agree, partly disagree.

Pan seems to be the first irredeemably evil villain (in terms of major characters) on the show, but he was unique in having no guilt/remorse for his actions.

Regina, Rumpel, and Cora all exhibit guilt/remorse, but all also committed deeds that would qualify for Moral Event Horizon.

Which is why I think the term "irredeemably evil" can be confusing. Those characters have more in the bad side of the ledger than the good side, but after crossing the line, do "come back" to some degree.

As Rumpel suggested and Regina agreed, the Moral Event Horizon means "they've (probably) done too much bad to get a happy ending", but I'd have a hard time calling them irredeemable.

As for Hook, his attempt to kill Belle was a big Kick the Dog moment, but he's definitely redeemed himself to a significant degree since then.
10:20:38 PM Jan 12th 2014
When does Cora express remorse? From what I've seen, she's pretty much a legitimate Complete Monster whenever she appears.
ykttw archive back to YMMV/OnceUponATime

TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy