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LogoP
topic
01:48:51 PM Apr 3rd 2014
Whose decision was to remove the Complete Monster examples from the YMMV page and place them in A Song of Ice and Fire ? I don't think they belong there.
SeptimusHeap
01:58:43 PM Apr 3rd 2014
Maybe ask the Complete Monster cleanup topic.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
01:38:43 PM Feb 27th 2014
Can we perhaps review the Broken Base entries altogether, because they seem a bit out of control. There are twelve entries there. By comparison, there are four entries for Base Breaker / Broken Base in A Song of Ice and Fire. Are all of these really examples of major dividing lines in the fanbase? It seems like every time a few people disagree on a messageboard thread somewhere it's getting recording as a Broken Base.
Larkmarn
02:24:01 PM Feb 27th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.8
It makes sense that we've got more examples, since we've got a much larger (and more importantly, broader) audience than the books. The books, as popular as they are, don't have nearly as diverse a fanbase as the show, which means of course there will be more Broken Base elements.

... that said, I do agree that it does need trimming. At the very least, about half of them need to go into Base Breaker.

Personally, I was unaware people didn't like "The Bear and the Maiden Fair." I also thought that, Alas, Poor Scrappy aside, Ros was pretty much universally disliked. But I don't claim to have my ear to the ground of the fandom.
CaptainCrawdad
08:30:22 PM Feb 27th 2014
But my point is to ask whether the fanbase is actually "broken" about all of these issues. Are all of these topics causing "civil war," as the trope description says? Or are these topics simply getting mixed reactions?
SeptimusHeap
03:36:08 AM Feb 28th 2014
I don't think it's practical to draw such a distinction.
CaptainCrawdad
09:10:37 PM Feb 28th 2014
Sure it's practical. Most people who check out this page would be Game of Thrones fans, and most fans can testify as to what's going on the fanbase.

Besides, the trope is about when a fanbase gets "broken" by a divisive topic. If the trope applies whenever at least one person has a different opinion than the rest, then we could list literally every aspect of the show as an example, and that's not a trope.
SeptimusHeap
01:27:50 AM Mar 1st 2014
History belies the idea that we can get an uncontested entry in the way you describe. Also, I worry about the standing of this idea under YMMV policies - YMMV pages collect opinions and they don't have to be majority opinions.
CaptainCrawdad
01:00:37 AM Mar 2nd 2014
Broken Base is a bit different from most other YMMV tropes in that it's not an opinion about the work, but a factual assertion that the fanbase is divided on a subjective issue.

It's an opinion to think that Tyrion is a lousy character or a good character, but it's a fact as to whether fans are warring over the issue. In this example, I might personally think that Tyrion is the worst character in the show, but I couldn't claim that there's a Broken Base over the issue, because the fanbase isn't broken over that topic. It's factually inaccurate. Think of it like Rotten Tomatoes: each review is subjective, but we can determine objectively whether the reviews were mixed or unanimous.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
02:05:16 PM Feb 13th 2014
Removed from Broken Base:

  • This continues after unlike in the books, Talisa was killed at the Red Wedding, and in a particularly brutal fashion with her pregnant belly being stabbed over and over. People who already hated her either had an Alas, Poor Scrappy reaction, or resented a development that seems designed to make it hard to say you don't like her without looking like a jerk.

I'm don't frequent the fan sites these days, so is this really an example of a major split in the fandom? And it is worth mentioning after the already stated issue with Talisa in that section? I don't want this trope to get bogged down with every criticism ever leveled against the show, which is just Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.
LogoP
02:43:32 PM Feb 13th 2014
Personally, I have yet to see/read about someone who thinks that Talisa's death "seems designed to make it hard to say you don't like her without looking like a jerk."

Now, some folks on the forums and the YouTube comment sections had an Alas, Poor Scrappy reaction to her death. But disliking it because it makes it hard for the to hate on her? No, haven't seen that. Honestly, it seems like an exaggeration.
Hodor
02:49:46 PM Feb 13th 2014
I think some of those people were hoping that the "Lannister Honeypot" theory would turn out to be true and were disappointed when it wasn't. But yeah, it's an exaggeration, and not so much a broken base as some of the people who didn't like the character when alive, still not liking her when dead.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
10:17:18 AM Feb 10th 2014
edited by 76.95.91.117
I removed a part of Heartwarming In Hindsight stating that Renly's standards are green and yellow, the Tyrell colors. I swear I'm not colorblind, and I've always seen them as blue and yellow. This screencap seems to confirm that. I even checked it in an image editing program and they're well within the blue spectrum. Is there another scene where Renly's standards look green?
Hodor
09:20:08 PM Feb 10th 2014
I see them as a bluish green/greenish blue. That's kind of a moot point though, because the Tyrell colors aren't green and yellow in the show (The Tyrells dress in blue, although when she is betrothed to Renly, Margaery wore some green), and adding to that is the fact that Renly in the books liked to dress in green and gold/wears gold and some green in the show (gold is the Baratheon color).

Now I do happen to think that Renly's Crown of Horns has a somewhat floral look, so that might have been an homage to the Tyrrels.

LogoP
04:25:44 AM Feb 11th 2014
I agree about the colors being semilar but it doesn't really seem as Heartwarming In Hindsight.

While it's true that Renly's sigil, dressing style and colors do resemble the Tyrell ones, I think it has more to do with symbolizing his political alliance with House Tyrell.
CaptainCrawdad
03:47:52 PM Feb 12th 2014
If Tyrell colors are blue and not green, that confuses things in this entry. The "green and gold" cloak isn't a reference to house colors, and Renly never wears blue. I agree with Logo P that changing his standards seems to be more about the Renly-Tyrell political alliance, which is vital to his claim. Stannis also changes his standard to differentiate himself from his rival brother.

That seems to remove all suggestions of Renly "becoming Tyrell." The only thing we have left is Loras referencing Renly's cloak in his fantasy wedding, which simply speaks to loving Renly himself.
LogoP
03:57:36 AM Feb 13th 2014
I agree. Loras referencing Renly's cloak in his fantasy has likely more to do with him being heartbroken and remembering Renly than anything else.
siberia82
07:39:03 AM Feb 13th 2014
Although the Tyrells are associated with the colour teal on the show, the HBO website still officially presents their sigil as gold on green, as seen here on the Viewer's Guide, here, where the colour of the Tyrell T-shirt is listed as "green" in the Additional Details section—I do own this T-shirt, btw, and it's more green that what you see in the stock image—and here, where the description reads, "feature the green and gold rose sigil of House Tyrell".

So I would still argue that the green brocade cloak that Renly wore at the tourney was meant to be a symbol of his love and commitment to Loras, as he is more or less imitating the wedding tradition.
siberia82
08:42:31 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
I forgot to add that I did visit the Go T Exhibit last year, and this is my snapshot of King Renly's sigil, which is clearly gold on green. I don't have the ability to make screen shots, but you can see this vertical banner behind Brienne when she tells Catelyn to kneel before Renly, in front of a tent while the three of them are walking, in the background while Renly is kissing the bruises on Loras' chest (it's on the side of Renly's posterior), in front of a tent once again in a shot which takes just before Renly greets Littlefinger, and on either side of Littlefinger as Renly grabs an apple. (There may be more examples, but those are the ones I remember off-hand.)

Some of Renly's soldiers also carried golden-stag-on-green shields which looked like this. I also own this King Renly sigil T-Shirt, and the colours are obviously gold on green. I also found this screen shot of the Season 2 Blu-Ray menu of Renly's banner.

I should point out that the colours of House Baratheon are black and YELLOW, not black and gold (and no, yellow and gold aren't the same shade). The showrunners took the trouble to change the colours of Renly's sigil (they could've simply kept the original banner just like his character does in the books) because it symbolizes the Tyrell-like personality that they have given to him (the TV character is pretty much a male version of Margaery, not a poor copy of Robert). From a production-level perspective, it represents more than "just" Renly acknowledging the contributions of his wife's family to his cause. In terms of how his character was written for show, he IS a Tyrell at heart despite carrying the Baratheon name.

Although Renly only wore black throughout Season 1, the costume designer put in the effort to create a green brocade cloak for his character to wear when Loras jousted, and she clearly had the intention of linking the green of Loras' sigil with Renly's fashion choices. There's no other reason why she would bother to add this garment on Renly (especially considering that he's only a secondary character) when it would've been easier and cheaper just to have him be dressed solely in black for the tourney.
LogoP
09:25:48 AM Feb 13th 2014
I've looked into it and the GOT wiki actually has an article on House Baratheon which explicitly states that the sigil and colours adopted by Renly for his faction in the War of the Five Kings mirrored his alliance with House Tyrell.

Considering that Renly used to wear normal colors (Season One) before teaming up with the Tyrells and making his bid for kingship, i'd say it's say to assume that his choice of colors has more to do with his political allegiance.

Really, it's the same with Stannis (who flat-out stated that he has no faith in R'hllor) adopting the flaming stag as his sigil in order to distance himself from Renly and Jofrrey.

Hodor
09:45:36 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
(Got your PM siberia 82). My bad with the colors of the sigils.

Given the above, I think I'd say that Renly does seem to clearly adopt Tyrrell stylings because of his alliance with them, but I'm sure that at least in part, his love for Loras was a motivator (in the sense that his dress style conveys his alliance with the Tyrells/marriage to Margaery, but also symbolizes his ties to Loras in a private joke kind of way).

Which means that it isn't really Heartwarming In Hindsight, since Renly did obviously adopt Tyrrell stylings (I'm not sure if the idea that he probably did so in part because of his relationship with Loras is Heart Warming In Hindsight, self-evident, or Epileptic Trees).

I do think that this though, "In terms of how his character was written for show, he IS a Tyrell at heart despite carrying the Baratheon name" is not clearly established on the show, and is just your personal interpretation (Renly doesn't like his brothers and loves Loras, but I don't think that is the same thing as being a Tyrell despite having the Baratheon name- I mean like as a comparison, Catelyn has kind of gone native on the show to a greater extent than in the books, but I don't think it would be accurate to say she's a Stark at heart despite carrying the Tully name).
siberia82
09:49:20 AM Feb 13th 2014
Logo P, you didn't seem to have read the last paragraph of my previous post properly because the point I was trying to make is that the costume designer took the trouble to dress Renly in a GREEN brocade cloak when he watched Loras joust (which took place in Season 1, in case you forgot) even though he only wore black for the rest of the season. This occurred BEFORE any thought of becoming king entered Renly's head, so the only reason why Michele Clapton would bother to add this detail to his character is because she wanted to show that Renly loved Loras and he brought the green brocade cloak to the tourney as a romantic gesture for his boyfriend. Renly basically viewed himself as Loras' "bride" at this stage.
Hodor
09:55:22 AM Feb 13th 2014
I'm gong to take issue with this- "the only reason why Michele Clapton would bother to add this detail to his character"- I think your interpretation is plausible, but characters on the show (and in the books) will wear different outfits, and not only ones that have their house colors.

I mean Cersei wears green occasionally, and she isn't doing it to express allegiance to the Tyrrells- I mean it also seems plausible to me that since it was a tourney, Renly wanted to wear something more stylish.
siberia82
10:00:40 AM Feb 13th 2014
Hodor, House Baratheon is traditionally known as a family of warriors, which TV!Renly definitely isn't. His brothers mock him for being a non-fighter, and Robert is especially disparaging of Renly's masculinity (e.g. calling him a "boy" during their hunting trip). The writers make the point of showing that Renly has different strengths, such as being good at politics, his concern for the smallfolk, his desire to rule through love instead of fear, having a progressive attitude towards women (his own inability to fit into rigid gender roles helps him to understand Brienne's struggles with her masculinity), etc. These are qualities which are associated more strongly with House Tyrell than House Baratheon.
Hodor
10:06:49 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
I don't disagree with that interpretation, but there's a difference between saying that Renly has personality qualities that make him a good fit with House Tyrell (something that would be good to put on the Analysis tab) and saying that "the show presents Renly as a Tyrell who happens to have the Baratheon name" (which is what you are saying and is just like your opinion, man).

I think a lot of your opinions are quite plausible, but they are still your opinions, unless there is some direct statement of intent by the showrunners, people in the production staff, etc.

As a contrast, take the case of Theon- Theon clearly dresses more like a Stark when living at Winterfell and then changes to an Iron Islands dress style when he returns home/betrays Robb. Theon later is given a quote about Ned being his true father. In Theon's case, there is a lot more direct show evidence about his clothing and its symbolism.

Also, you kind of have a Single-Issue Wonk about how Renly was the greatest guy ever and how his romance with Loras is the greatest thing ever...
siberia82
10:11:02 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Hodor, Cersei is a main character, so she's obviously going to have a variety of gowns, so I agree that in her case, the colours don't necessarily say anything meaningful about her personality. But Renly is only a secondary character, so his number of outfits are extremely limited in comparison. The fact that Clapton clothed him only black (with the exception of the tourney) in Season 1 strongly indicates to me that she was trying to show that at the point in this series, Renly is loyal to Robert, since he is on the king's small council. Clapton could've chosen to dress Renly in a yellow brocade cloak for the joust, as yellow is a colour of House Baratheon, but the green was selected on purpose.
Hodor
10:13:29 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
While plausible, you do not have evidence that that was Clapton's intent.

What is so hard about just putting that in the Analysis tab or WMG and not insisting that your interpretation had to be the intent?

I'd note that Renly wears gold/yellow and green in the books, and so it seems equally plausible to me that (typically) the show wanted to have him wear something like he wore in the books, but in a more muted/drab direction.

LogoP
10:17:51 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 78.87.166.108
I'm with Hodor in this.

Whatever the case with the colors might be, what you claim is merely a (granted, plausible) theory concerning a trope that deals with facts. Thus, it has no place on the YMMV page and it should go to the WMG one (or an analysis page, as Hodor stated).

On a sidenote, we've really been through this before with that Harsher in Hindsight issue. It's the discussion right bellow this one.
Hodor
10:21:09 AM Feb 13th 2014
Thank-you. And yes, there's an obvious Single-Issue Wonk here.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
02:37:48 PM Feb 3rd 2014
Removed from Harsher in Hindsight:

  • Renly casually agreeing with Loras' assessment that Joffrey is a monster in Season 1 becomes a bit chilling after the revelation in Season 3 that Joff wants to execute all homosexuals (and the boy-king is very much aware of his "Uncle" Renly's sexuality). Renly no doubt had to put up with his "nephew's" constant taunts for being a "degenerate," and he was probably perceptive enough to know that the overly cruel Joffrey not only hated him for being gay, but even wanted to kill him for it, but was restrained solely by the fact that Robert would strongly disapprove of this action.

First of all correct me if I'm wrong but I think this trope is usually for real world events striking chords with the work's plot. If not, I still think this entry is too much conjecture. The entry asserts that Joffrey was ridiculing Renly to his face for his homosexuality. That's quite an assumption. It never happens onscreen or is implied to happen anywhere.

Everything we've seen has shown that Joffrey doesn't stand up for himself when his elders are around. If he's going to cower from Tyrion, who nobody likes, how could he get away with airing such dirty family laundry at well-loved Renly with impunity?

It's also pretty well established that Renly's homosexuality is a well-known secret, but people don't bring it up to his face. He thinks people don't know. If Joffrey knew about it, he'd be making the same jokes behind Renly's back as everyone else.

Also, the entry assumes that Joffrey has long-spanning and deep-seated anti-homosexual feelings since childhood. It's never established that Joffrey thought much about homosexuality at all before a homosexual tried to take his throne.
Hodor
02:47:59 PM Feb 3rd 2014
Totally agree. Also, IIRC it was news to Joffrey that Renly was gay (I can't remember all the details, but Margaery basically brings it up in the context of explaining away her previous ties with Renly/to stoke Joffrey's ego (innuendo intended)).

And yeah, as you wisely note, Joffrey is a Dirty Coward- he wouldn't have dared (at least not before he was king) making those kind of comments about Renly (assuming he did know about Renly's sexuality).

Also, Joffrey being Joffrey, there's really a whole lot of behavior Renly could have witnessed that would lead him to label Joffrey a "monster". In particular, Stannis in the book recalls Joffrey vivisecting a pregnant cat- I figure this might come up in the show, and my fanon is that this is probably also something Renly might have witnessed or heard about.
siberia82
06:01:23 PM Feb 3rd 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Just to clarify, Cersei refers to Renly as "a known degenerate" to Joffrey in a scene from "Dark Wings, Dark Words" which preceded the one where Joff summons Margaery to his chambers. Joffrey wasn't at all surprised by Cersei's statement, which indicates to me he must have known that Renly was gay for some time.

Just before their mother-son talk (when Renly hasn't been mentioned yet), he makes a big fuss about not wanting to wear flowers to the tailor, and it becomes obvious from his "death to degenerates" statement to Margaery later on that he loathes flowers because he thinks they're effeminate. (And guess what, her brother is known as the Knight of Flowers—since Joff is aware that Renly is gay, he must suspect that Loras is too, as the rumours are always about the two of them as a couple. Hating gays as much as he does, Joffrey would want to avoid flowers like the plague.) I think this is a fairly concrete hint that Joff has been homophobic for a while.

TV!Renly is not assertive like Tyrion. Joffrey only cowers around Tyrion because the latter slaps him into submission. I can't picture Renly being physically abusive towards anyone, not even a shithead like Joff, so Renly would be an easy target for his taunts. Robert was totally in denial of Renly's homosexuality (remember when Robert asked his youngest brother "Have you ever fucked a Riverlands girl?"), so even if Renly complained about Joffrey's mocking behaviour, Robert's reaction would be something like, "Oh please. My son was just saying that because he thinks you're not a 'real man', and I agree with him. Forget about masquerade balls and start learning how to use a sword properly. Then the jokes will stop."
Hodor
06:22:56 PM Feb 3rd 2014
There's no in-show evidence whatsoever that "Renly no doubt had to put up with his "nephew's" constant taunts for being a "degenerate," and he was probably perceptive enough to know that the overly cruel Joffrey not only hated him for being gay, but even wanted to kill him for it, but was restrained solely by the fact that Robert would strongly disapprove of this action".

I agree that Joffrey was certainly homophobic for a while prior to that scene, but there's no evidence that Joffrey had known for a long while that Renly was gay, and if he had, that he had taunted Renly about it. For one thing, my sense is that talk of Renly being gay really came out (pardon the pun) once he declared himself King, and if Robert didn't know that Renly was gay, it doesn't seem likely that Joffrey would either (I'd also note that Robert spent very little time with Joffrey and Renly seemed to want to avoid spending too much time with Robert, so I don't see that much interaction between the three).

I mean it is certainly plausible that if Joffrey had previously made homophobic remarks out loud (which we don't know if he did, but it seems plausible) that this would be one of the reasons why Renly hated him, but everything else in your post in conjecture (fan fiction?)

Also, I wasn't suggesting that Renly would slap Joffrey around, more that Tyrion would if in earshot. I also think that while neither Robert nor Cersei would really care about Joffrey making fun of Renly, if Joffrey actually made some kind of direct reference to Renly's homosexuality/a threat, they would shut Joffrey up pretty quickly (and again, there's no evidence that Joffrey had known of Renly's sexuality during Robert's life time).
siberia82
09:21:18 PM Feb 3rd 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Cersei was the one who raised Joffrey, not Robert, and Cersei certainly knew about Renly's sexuality even before the series began (she does have her own spies, after all). If you doubt that, then Jaime at least claimed to have known that Renly was a "tulip" (hey, it's the flower metaphor again) since the boy first arrived at court, so at one point he must have shared that piece of gossip with Cersei, if for no other reason than to crack a gay joke (which he clearly enjoys doing). In Season 1, Littlefinger is very much aware of Renly's relationship with Loras (and I think it's safe to assume that he was informed about their affair a long time ago because he has a lot more spies than Cersei), so even at this early stage, Renly and Loras' romance is an Open Secret at court. Even if Joffrey ignored the rumours about the two men (which I doubt), Cersei would at least mention their homosexuality when he was old enough to understand these things as part of her "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" lesson so that Joff could potentially use this knowledge against them one day.

Littlefinger openly mocked Renly's sexuality in his face at the Tourney of the Hand ("...when will you be having your friend?"), which is a very public event, and everyone around them in the stands could hear their conversation as the two men were not whispering. Renly instantly became fearful and immediately halted his snarky comments, and Petyr even managed to squeeze in a smug smirk before sitting down. If a minor noble like Littlefinger can freely poke fun at the king's youngest brother and the Lord of Storm's End for being gay in front of a crowd without suffering any consequences (not even a verbal threat), then Prince Joffrey could get away with at least that (and probably more). Renly's high status and likeability clearly don't protect him from personal or public ridicule.

Joff is nothing if not a bully, and bullies love to pick on easy targets (which Renly definitely is if he can't even get the lowly-ranked and reviled Petyr to shut his trap). With that in mind, I find it hard to believe than an extreme homophobe like Joffrey (who isn't just disgusted by gays, but actually wants them eliminated) wouldn't at least pick up on the gossip (or learn the truth from his mother), and then use the information to make the life of his "degenerate" uncle more miserable. Joff gets a kick out of humiliating others, and he won't be punished for mocking Renly (not even a literal slap on the wrist, as the Petyr example shows), so what's to stop him? The boy is a psychopath who only fears his "father's" wrath, and Robert himself belittles Renly's masculinity.

I thought YMMV page allowed for a little more flexibility in how we interpret what we see on the show. This trope is called Harsher in Hindsight, and I do find Loras' "Joffrey is a monster" line to be slightly more disturbing now after watching "Dark Wings, Dark Words". It suddenly made me consider for the first time that Renly views Joff this way not just because he had witnessed him do horrible things (like cutting open a pregnant cat as stated in the novels), but it would be very much in Joffrey's cruel nature to spew (figurative) filth at Non-Action Guy Renly for being gay, since inflicting actual physical harm is out of the question for as long as Robert is king. Renly is quite good at reading people, and he would notice that Joff's wickedness worsens as he gets older and gains more power; it's only a matter of time before his "nephew" tortures and/or executes anyone he despises ("degenerates" included).

If I find a way to reword my entry for this trope, would it be more acceptable, or is my new interpretation of what "Joffrey is a monster" could mean wholly invalid?
Hodor
08:49:39 AM Feb 4th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
I think that Joffrey's later expression of homophobia does lead to some Fridge Horror/ Fridge Brilliance in terms of an additional reason why Renly and Loras hated him (besides all the other reasons).

However, there is no evidence in the show whatsoever about Joffrey tormenting Renly in public or private with homophobic comments. It's not something Renly ever mentions, nor does anyone else, including Joffrey himself (who actually seems to be somewhat surprised to lean or Renly's homosexuality in his conversation with Margaery).

I also think that to some degree, the show went too far with the sexuality being an Open Secret, and your speculation is a Watsonian reaction to that (this isn't a criticism of you, more of the show). What I mean, is that earlier in the show, Renly and Loras' sexuality does seem to be an actual secret, but seems to become increasingly well known over time, to the effect that one would wonder in retrospect, how Joffrey (or Robert) wouldn't have known about it.

However, my take on things is that since Robert was ignorant of it (kind of doesn't speak well to his relationship with his brother), I think that suggests there wasn't open mockery of Renly going on, or else Robert would have known about it. And I'd kind of be wary about taking Littlefinger as representative of court behavior, as his character is written as someone who is pretty reckless about mocking his social betters (see that disastrous scene where he tried that with Cersei).

Also, while this is admittedly my speculation, I think that while Robert was a jerk to Renly, he probably would not be cool with Joffrey mocking his brother, especially in public.

Moreover, I don't have "evidence" of this, but given the precedent with Jaime and Cersei's incest, my sense is that while some people in the court were always "in the know", talk about Renly's sexuality didn't happen in the open until after Renly became an enemy claimant to the throne, and more so after his death. As a corrolary of that, in part because he rejoined the Lannister side, there doesn't seem to be as much talk about Loras' sexuality (hard as it may be to believe, he still largely has the public image of dashing knight who is an eligible bachelor).

CaptainCrawdad
12:45:54 PM Feb 7th 2014
If I find a way to reword my entry for this trope, would it be more acceptable, or is my new interpretation of what "Joffrey is a monster" could mean wholly invalid?

I think it's Wild Mass Guessing. WMG is for making speculations and drawing conclusions about a work that are never (or have not yet been) addressed by the work itself. If you're adding your own content (in this case imagining that Joffrey and Renly have quarreled over Renly's homosexuality) then it's Wild Mass Guessing.

YMMV tropes are about subjective fan reactions to the show, but only to what's in the show itself. Compare the existing Harsher in Hindsight example, in which Theon's frontal nudity is harsher after he gets castrated. Those are two definite events in the show. No speculated content is needed. I can't add Bronn as a Magnificent Bastard because I've decided that he's manipulating all sides against the others. That's not portrayed in the show, so my reaction to it is irrelevant.
LogoP
04:16:16 AM Feb 9th 2014
In short, what Captain Crawdad said. I can't say that this isn't a solid theory but it's pure speculation and, thus, it does not belong here. Putting it under Harsher in Hindsight would be misuse. Not just because the trope is only concerned with facts. Its very meaning boils down to: tragic scene worsened by later tragic prophetic event. Loras calling Joffrey a monster can hardly be considered "tragic".

All and all, better take this to the WMG page. It has strength, as a theory.
LogoP
topic
07:23:59 AM Jul 17th 2013
So, why were all the CM examples removed?
TrollBrutal
07:43:15 AM Jul 17th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Odd, I thought they were being moved to a separated page, enough volume to justify it I guess, like in "Memetic Mutation : Has its own page" , but they have been confined to Live-Action TV

It seems the cleanup thread decided it that way.
LogoP
07:48:46 AM Jul 17th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
OK then. Is this TV only or it'll aply to literature too? I mean, can we still create a CM subpage here? Like in ASOIAF.
Shaoken
05:07:25 AM Jul 22nd 2013
We made no such decision. If a work has its own monster subpage we link to that, but last I check Game of Thrones didn't and there should have been a link provided. The mod In question acted without talking it over with the thread.
LogoP
12:01:54 PM Jul 22nd 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Issue is now fixed. It was just a misunderstanding. So, are the examples enough to create a CM subpage for GOT or we wait until S4?
Shaoken
02:38:27 AM Sep 18th 2013
There needs to be at least three, but it would usually take a lot more to justify creating a new subpage (or if the word length for the YMMV page was getting too long and we needed to start trimming).
LogoP
topic
12:17:33 PM Jul 15th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Regarding Daario Naharis. I'd like to ask if you think he's considered The Scrappy by a large number of viewers. Large enough to put him on the YMMV page. While Book!Daario is clearly hated by many book fans, TV!Daario didn't get a lot of screentime or characterization during this season. I think some people fail to make distinctions between mediums and act based on their book prejudices. So my question is: Do you think that TV!Daario is disliked by a substantial number of fans to qualify as The Scrappy? Or he should be cut?
yojoe
05:54:52 AM Jul 24th 2013
I hated him precisely because I felt he was being presented as a character the audience is supposed to like, but it didn't feel earned it just felt forced. For me, he's definitely a Scrappy right now.
Larkmarn
07:44:25 AM Jul 24th 2013
I can't speak for anyone else, but OP is correct in that TV Daario didn't get a lot of screentime or characterization... and yet he was just presented as a prettyboy One-Man Army and took screentime from the guys we do really like.

Given Game of Thrones has a much broader base than the books, I don't think that the books are affecting it. I personally haven't touched the books.
CaptainCrawdad
08:14:17 AM Jul 24th 2013
I've never been a fan of the negative tropes because they brush too closely to complaining about things you don't like about shows, which isn't what this site is supposed to be about. Unless there's some sort of major, well-known backlash against a character, I don't think it bears mentioning. If people want to express their criticisms, they can always write a review.
LogoP
05:29:33 PM Jul 24th 2013
I've been thinking that since TV!Daario has gotten so little screentime, should we delete his scrappy status (for now) and wait until next season. He's character will be probably fleshed out and, if he still gets a lot of fan hate, we can safely re-add him. What do you think?
Mistermister
topic
09:32:11 AM Jun 21st 2013
So is Walder Frey a Complete Monster in the adaptation? There was a discussion about it in the cleanup page earlier, and most people seem to be in favor for adding him in. He is more villainous than his book counterpart, which is quite the accomplishment. Are we holding him off until he possibly dies?
CaptainCrawdad
12:21:34 PM Jun 21st 2013
Looking at the requirements for Complete monster:

  • Truly heinous by the standards of the story - Yes, he slaughtered many sympathetic characters, laughs about it, and violates guest right, the worst crime in Westeros.

  • Evokes fear, revulsion and hatred from other characters - Not really. He's only just recently made his Face-Heel Turn. While a lot of people talk about how unpleasant Walder is, we really haven't progressed enough in the story for him to have become notorious.

  • Devoid of altruistic qualities - Yes. Everything he does is for pride or self-interest.

So it's about 2 1/4 out of 3 requirements by my estimation.
Mistermister
01:12:59 PM Jun 21st 2013
Ok, that's good enough to know. We'll have to wait if he makes anymore appearances then.
Shaoken
05:04:50 AM Jun 24th 2013
You could get away with adding him in now since Bran's story exposition explained that violating sacred hospitality is a massive no-no in Westeros, he gets the fear and revulsion down from the massacre scene, and waiting a whole year just to add one entry is a bit of overkill.
LogoP
09:09:57 AM Jul 6th 2013
I remember visiting the Complete Monster thread and general consensus was that TV!Walder (though not Book!Walder) qualifies. I think tha waiting an entire year just to add an example is too much. He should be added.
CaptainCrawdad
10:35:04 AM Jul 6th 2013
Why would the TV version qualify and not the Series version?
Larkmarn
10:56:01 AM Jul 6th 2013
My guess? More "well, he's clearly enjoying this" shots, and the fact he apparently opened his attack by having his men stab a pregnant women in the belly repeatedly in front of her husband. Plus he gave up his wife and dismissed her as replaceable.
LogoP
03:20:42 AM Jul 7th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
This. Plus his Evil Gloating afterwards and general Smug Snake attitude helped establish hm as much nastier than his book counterpart. Not to mention that Book!Walder was surrounded by much worse monsters (e.g. Ramsay, the Moutnain, Vargo Hoat, Rorge, Biter Euron, LF e.t.c.) while in the TV series only Ramsay comes close to that level of monstrosity. And he's still toned down compared to his book version. So, the lack of heinous monsters in the series compared to the books highlight's Walder's own despicable nature.
CaptainCrawdad
03:39:37 AM Jul 7th 2013
I don't really see a big discrepancy between the two versions, but I have no dog in that fight.
Shaoken
03:48:42 AM Jul 7th 2013
Basically the series version has redeeming qualities; his son who he loved was killed during the war fighting for Robb and Robb basically betraying their arrangement meant his son's death was worthless, so he does have more of a reason to want vengeance. Show!Walder also has the enjoying it thing going for him, plus there being less C Ms for him to compete with.
LogoP
04:04:20 AM Jul 7th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
So, what it's gonna be? We add him or not? He has my vote.
TrollBrutal
04:45:09 AM Jul 7th 2013
The logic behind some medium distinctions escapes me, when I argued about the Mountain killing Ser Hugh in a tournament not being presented as a very big deal in the show, arguments from the books were brought up, including material from the Hedge Knight...
LogoP
12:23:30 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
So, any suggested write-ups for Walder Frey's CM entry? Assuming he qualifies, of course.
Larkmarn
12:37:36 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
Just whipped this up:

  • Walder Frey. While he's somewhat repugnant in his first appearance, he seems to be a fairly competent ruler and willing to help the heroes, for a price. His next appearance even has him come across as a Cool Old Guy, forgiving Robb's slight against him. Then come The Red Wedding, which opens with Robb's pregnant wife being stabbed repeatedly in the stomach, Robb, Catelyn, and the Stark Bannermen being murdered in a massive violation of guest right, laughing and eating the whole time. To top it off, when his wife is held hostage, he simply tells the hostage taker to kill her, she's expendable. To drive the point home, he begins the next episode by recounting the Red Wedding with glee, showing no remorse and celebrating the power his betrayal has brought him.

I personally think he qualifies. He's completely devoid of any positive attributes. Even the idea that he's done the things he did for the betterment of his family is clearly not the case since he did not care in the slightest that his wife was killed. And he did not exactly seem terribly fond of any of his daughters, anyway. Just means to him getting some power.
LogoP
03:01:16 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Replace Wham Episode with Moral Event Horizon and this write-up is perfect. Good work. Now the only thing that's left for us to do is to reach a consensus here too. The CM thread is leaning too, torwards yes. One more thing. If we decide to add him, should we consider the possibility of creating a Complete Monster sub-page for GOT?

EDIT- I just visited the CM thread and I have been informed that the verdict on Walder was a clear keep. Adding him.
LogoP
topic
01:25:19 PM May 29th 2013
I think that the CompleteMonster entry for Gregor Clegane should be deleted. Yesm he is definately one in the books but in the show? Most of it is offscreen. Yes he raped women and girls and butchered Elia and her childern e.t.c. but all of these either come from backround material or/references by other characters. He just fails on the heinous standar. Especialy compared to other characters like Locke and the Boy who aren't even listed.
IronLion
01:30:37 PM May 29th 2013
I'm inclined to agree (for now, at least). His first few minutes painted him as a monster quite clearly, but two and a half seasons later, most non-book-reading viewers are likely to have forgotten who he is or why they're supposed to be appalled by him.

Mind you, regarding the Offstage Villainy, the majority of his deeds in the book are learned about through dialogue or POV introspection, and he's none the less monstrous for it.
LogoP
01:41:58 AM May 30th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
Yes but we learn about most of Ramsay Bolton's atrocities in the books too, don't we? Mostly Theon. But that's because they are books, they write and tell, don't show. I believe we should wait until the whole arc with Elia and the Red Viper comes up, then put him under the CM list.
TrollBrutal
02:58:17 AM May 30th 2013
I'd cut the Mountain, per current guidelines of the trope, Offscreen Villainy is a major disqualifier. Most of his deeds are conveyed through exposition.

It probably needs to be adressed in the clean-up thread http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=530 (maybe it was once, I don't know how to search for it in that behemoth)
Shaoken
03:30:20 AM May 30th 2013
As someone who joined the thread pretty early on I can say that the only Game of Thrones villian who was brought up was The Boy, who was agreed to count but as a rule we hold off on introducing characters until the season/arc is over after a rash of tropers rushing to add a character because they were a dick in one episode, and then three episodes later got character development that pushed them so far out of Complete Monster territory it wasn't funny.

Anyway, just take it to the thread Troll Brutal linked to and state your case.
TweaktheWhacked
topic
08:02:04 PM May 25th 2013
I understand that I am in a vast minority when it comes to my preference for Talisa over Jeyne, but I'm becoming increasingly annoyed with this wiki's bias against Talisa and favor for the book's sequence of events in the YMMV section.

I had no problem with Talisa being listed under Base Breaker and even The Scrappy- the fandom is against her enough that these entries are justified, even if their reasoning isn't.

In the books, Robb, off screen, marries a woman on the opposite side of the war because he took her virginity. This is a monumentally stupid move any way you slice it, no matter how often the word "honor" is thrown around. He didn't get her pregnant, he didn't owe her family anything, and the whole mess isn't even that much of a scandal anyway as most of Westeros accepts(even if they aren't going to talk about it publicly) that noble daughters often lose their maidenheads before marriage. He doesn't love her, he never claims to love her, the alliance brings him fifty men in exchange for the thousands of Freys he loses, all because she "comforted" him one night after he learned some bad news. This is him taking his father's Honor Before Reason philosophy to an idiotic extreme that's impossible to justify; Ned brought home a bastard boy, not a wife.

In the show, we see Robb and Talisa meet, grow to respect one another, fall in love. We see Robb grapple with his pain from losing his father, from Theon's betrayal, from his mother's betrayal. We see Robb struggle with the bitterness of having to marry a woman he's never met for a bridge, due to his traitor mother's atrocious negotiation skills, and the icing on the cake is that it was all for nothing because his father died anyway.

I have little doubt that had Robb and Jeyne's story been shown in length in the books, fans would have called him an idiot there to because breaking the vow with the Freys for "honor" is no more or less stupid than doing it for "love".

Now, I'm of the opinion that Talisa is a better character than Jeyne based soley on the fact that Jeyne isn't a character, she's an Idiot Ball that was forced in Robb's hands by Martin, a blatant and undeniable plot device. But if people dislike her, that's fine.

But do not sit there and tell me that the decision in the book wasn't a stupid decision. Perhaps a more justifiable one given that Robb's younger in the books, but it's still a stupid decision. And it would be every bit as stupid if the show had gone with that decision instead of the one we saw, because that is the point. The point is that whatever the reason, breaking the vow with the Freys is a stupid decision that gets Robb killed.
LogoP
08:42:58 AM May 26th 2013
So what exactly are you suggesting?
CaptainCrawdad
09:12:12 AM May 26th 2013
Take it to a messageboard or write a review. This place is for discussing issues concerning the tropes.
TweaktheWhacked
01:40:37 AM May 30th 2013
I'm suggesting that entries regarding the subject be edited to show less bias. I apologize that got lost in my rant.
LogoP
01:45:02 AM May 30th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
In that case RepairDontRespond my friend. Just make sure to give good reason for the changes you make.
DorianMode
topic
12:47:10 AM May 21st 2013
Howzabout Daenerys Targaryen as Mary Sue Classic? Reconstructed, perhaps, or really just played surprisingly straight: Beautiful, Blonde, Purple-Eyed, princess-in-exile, with three(!) pet dragons, and everyone loves her, and she frees slaves and kicks ass because she's so very cool. And she has this bodyguard who loves her. And this other bodyguard who's the best swordsman in the world. And this army of slave-soldiers who do whatever she tells them and feel no pain, except they're not slaves anymore because she freed them so they're all following her anyway. And this other army of mercenaries who're following her because the captain is in love with her and he killed the guys who weren't in love with her and yadda yadda yadda.

I'm not saying she's a BAD character per se, just that it sounds like George R. R. Martin had a 13-year old niece who came up with her own character and demanded she be included in his books. And bless him, he just decided to run with it full tilt.
MatthewTheRaven
03:56:27 PM May 22nd 2013
I was going to post some arguments against this, but I realized that Storm of Swords represents Daenerys at her apex, before she shows a lot of flaws and incompetence in A Dance With Dragons.
TompaDompa
08:43:51 AM May 23rd 2013
She is fairly Sue-ish, that cannot be denied. However, she is bested by others repeatedly (Mirri Maz Duur, Pyat Pree, and Xaro Xhoan Daxos come to mind). She usually ends up on top, though.

Moreover, she's na´ve, whiny, and entitled. The Spice King of Qarth points that out more than once, and he's clearly portrayed as in the right on those occasions.
Shaoken
05:14:31 AM May 25th 2013
She falls short because like Tompa said she doesn't come out on top all the time, it's often pointed out several times when she's being an idiot, at least one of those times bit her in the ass hard (good work thinking that just because you stopped some rape you're going to be instantly forgiven for slaughtering entire villages), and considering the tone of the work (and because I've peeked at some spoilers) things are eventually going to get worse for Daenerys.
DorianMode
01:38:40 AM Jun 11th 2013
So maybe a deconstruction, as in, this is how people would actually react to a character like that? I feel like she hits too many Sue Notes for it too be ignored entirely...
LogoP
topic
06:00:23 AM May 20th 2013
The Esemble Darkhorse list is getting long. Is it possible to create a subpage?
Shaoken
05:11:09 AM May 25th 2013
From the looks of it ED was suffering misuse from people who thought it meant One-Scene Wonder, so it's probably better off cut short.
Shaoken
topic
11:47:34 PM May 16th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
Removed Theon from Moral Event Horizon. What he does isn't that disimilar to Jamie killing Jorah and his own cousin as well as the attempted murder of Bran, or the Hound killing the butcher's boy and Stark bannermen, and niether are considered to have passed the Moral Event Horizon. Theon also has the excused of caving to pressure from the Iron born and even admits that he's doing evil things while thinking he's gone too far while the Maester says he's not a lost cause, so him becoming The Atoner after a Heel-Face Turn is perfectly plausable which flies in the face of what Moral Event Horizon.
TweaktheWhacked
08:05:42 PM May 25th 2013
Not that it matters, but Season 3 reveals that Theon didn't kill the boys himself, or even command it; he simply let Dagmar do it. Which is still horrible, but not necessarily MEH worthy.
LogoP
topic
07:32:55 AM May 10th 2013
Why do people keep deleting the CM entry about the Boy? Yes, I agree that spoilers about his identity should be deleted. But judging from his recent actions, I think he fits the bill for CM status. And unlike Gregor Clegane everything he does happens on-screen.
lrrose
08:37:32 AM May 10th 2013
Because constant misuse of the CM trope has led to a requirement that all examples go through this thread first.
NonoRobot
08:41:47 AM May 10th 2013
If you want to give someone the CM status, you have to discuss it first there : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=1

On a side note, the Complete Monster trope page really should give a link to this discussion in the forums.
Shaoken
11:45:33 PM May 16th 2013
Also as a rule Complete Monster candidates can only be introduced once the season/arc is over after a rash of tropers jumped the gun and through anyone who did something bad only for them to undergo further development later and moving well out of CM territory. The Boy probably won't get any redeeming features, but we're trying to stamp out the many, many bad habits that keep plaguing Complete Monster.

As for the page not having a link, that's Fast Eddie's call. He wants to keep pages as presented exclusively for readers and keep anything that concerns editors commented out.
lrrose
topic
09:46:07 AM Apr 1st 2013
Creator's Pet:

I removed Ros and Littlefinger for failing the criteria.

A Creator's Pet needs to meet the following four criteria:

1. Hated by fans:
  • It's safe to say that this is the case with Ros. Not so much with Littlefinger.

2. Loved (or worshipped) by the writers:
  • Hard to tell. I'll give both examples the benefit of the doubt though.

3. Put into big scenes for no reason:
  • I'll concede this for both.

4. Talked up by other characters:
  • Both of them fail to meet this criteria. Ros goes through a Trauma Conga Line in Season 2 and no one seems to respect her for anything other than her skills in bed. Pretty much every character considers Littlefinger to be an untrustworthy weasel.

Ros and Littlefinger fail to meet the criteria for a Creator's Pet.
back to YMMV/GameOfThrones

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