Pulled these examples:
From the Manga and Brotherhood section:
- Unfortunate Implications:
- Garfiel, particularly in the omakes, where he's frequently the butt of jokes about how gross effeminate men are, and is portrayed as a sexual predator for laughs.
- Grumman slapping Rebecca's rear being played for laughs. In the manga, she at least gets to yell at him for it, but not in the anime.
From the 2003 anime:
- Unfortunate Implications:
- Claus, the girl who dresses like a boy in episode 4, stops doing so after she gets over the death of her sister. The implication being that dressing as the opposite sex always stems from something negative, and is "just a phase" that people grow out of when the negative thing is resolved.
- Barry the Chopper being a Villainous Crossdresser, once again reinforcing the idea that there's something wrong with those who dress as the opposite sex.
- Rose getting an obliquely-presented, but obvious, case of Rape as Drama offscreen, which she never gets to actually discuss (because her trauma turned her mute). Her treatment in the show is pretty excessively sadistic overall, but this is the worst of it.
As per the Unfortunate Implications page: 'no example may be added in this article or on a work article, without proof that it's not just one person thinking.' In other words, citation is required.
I just wanted to say that "Colons don't work like that" explanation of the last edit was the best piece of unintended hilarity I saw this month. Unintentional kudos to the editor.
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Unintentional thanks right back at ya.
Souleye - PPPPPP - Potential for Anything 3DS FC: 2621-3105-8671
About this:
"Edward calling Ling "squint-eyed" and similar things is played for laughs and never addressed as a bad thing. Might also count as cultural dissonance as Japan to this day is prejudiced against people from China
."
I'm pretty sure that the "squinty eyes" comments were about Ling's character design and what that implies about his personality? None of the other Xing characters share that trait with Ling, and it seems like a rather American/European stereotype.
Edited by 66.58.237.97 Hide / Show Replies
I agree I think. Maybe the English translation is covering up racism, but as far as I can tell, he 's called "shifty eyed" not "squint eyed" and it's because he has "evil" looking eyes- which is why he's usually Eyes Always Shut. As noted, none of the other Xingese characters have eyes like him.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Yeah, I have the viz manga translation and I can confirm he definitely does say "shifty eyes," I think that Brotherhood's english dub has him say "squinty eyes" though; so it might translated differently by one or the other.
Edited by 66.58.237.97
Ok, if no one has any objections I'm going to take it down. It's flamebaity and the fact that it's characteristic of Ling and Ling only, Eyes Always Shut is a common anime trope that fits Ling to a T, and is translated as "Shifty" in the manga (a term that's even mentioned to be common translation on the Eyes Always Shut trope page) And In the next panel Al even mentions that *Ed* has pretty shifty eyes too.
I'm pretty sure the joke was probably about Ling's character design being common with sly and sometimes villainous characters who sometimes like to fein obliviousness, not a racial stereotype.
However, there are unfortunate implications in the fact that the dub decided to translate this as a Fantasy!European person calling an visitor from Fantasy!China "squinty-eyes." Especially considering that dub is being translated in place that the term "squinty eyes" *is* demonstrative of Western prejudice against people from Asia.
Edited by 66.58.237.97
Coffee?
It shouldn't have to be said, but: can we keep Tumblr drama away from TV Tropes?
Or at least, can we not have one Tumblr blog's "feminist analysis" of the 2003 series - that is based on half-remembrances, and plenty of other people have already debunked - stated as though it's a common criticism? Really, we shouldn't be posting stuff that's just one person saying it here anyway, but at least if you're going to include it, make it out to be what it is - one person's analysis, someone who's not exactly a well-respected critic or anything - and make sure it's acknowledged that there are a lot of people (including other feminists) who disagree.
It mainly seems to be one user adding these things, but s/he is a persistent one, and it's getting annoying to constantly have to check this page to revert their edits - which seem to be more based on reading that blog (since it's the same "criticisms" there but re-worded or exaggerated) than their own viewing of the 2003 anime.
Edited by 50.133.133.198 Hide / Show Replies
YMMV pages were made so that people could express their opinions without putting them on the main page so as to seem like facts. The only way to remove ymmv items is for the example to not follow the trope definition. Otherwise, his opinion (or a blog's; it doesn't matter) has just as much right to be there as yours do.
If you would like to take down any of his examples at any time, please prove why the examples he wrote are not proper examples of their respective tropes.
Edited by 72.200.24.45 Souleye - PPPPPP - Potential for Anything 3DS FC: 2621-3105-8671
I've been given to understand that YMMV is not actually for individual opinions, but for prevelent subjective opinions in fandom as a whole. Is this not the case?
Also, we're also allowed to remove things that are factually wrong about the work, correct? Because as I was trying to indicate with the note about them being based on "half-remembrances", a lot of these criticisms about how the 2003 series is supposedly "anti-feminist" are based on wrong information - complaining about things that didn't actually happen in the series, leaving out things that did happen that would disprove their arguments, and so on.
Also, I'd like the clarification amarielah asked for as well. From my experience on other YMMV pages, there seems to be a new rule that Unfortunate Implications examples in particular need to be something that is a common impression viewers have, not just one person's opinion, and need an outside citation to show this. (Personally, I like that new rule; since TVT is a reference, it should reflect what are frequent impressions - positive or negative - that some fans have about the series, rather than allowing one person to bias everything toward their particular, highly-individual take on the series. Especially if it's a contentious topic where ranting about it violates Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment. I've seen this as a problem on YMMV pages for other volatile fandoms, too, and it seems to be what the person who I mentioned above is doing, when the things s/he is adding aren't just outright incorrect.)
Edited by 155.41.120.94
Ditto for quoting tumblr blogs in FMA Brotherhood YMMV as a source behind Unfortunate Implicatons around racism.
Plus "It's the same justification as many racists use!" is just an ugly argument that leads to drama.
tbh I kinda don't think that we should be linking to tumblr for either ymmv section for either series, if only because the fandom infighting is so ugly there.
Outside of tumblr the drama sorta started peetering out back in 2012, so there are probably other sources that could convey the same information without dropping people into active fandom battle grounds.
Edited by 137.229.209.243
Cleric of Banjo
Wanted to ask a question about this Hilarious in Hindsight example:
- The villains' argument that the millions of people they kill will still live as Philosophers' Stones inside the conspirators is pretty much the same as the Catalyst's infamous fan-infuriating Insane Troll Logic in Mass Effect 3.
What I'm wondering, is that I don't recall any such argument (can someone refresh my memory here?) From what I recall, neither the hommunculi nor the conspirators really care about those casualties, and as I understand it, the conspirators don't necessarily think as many people will die as Father had planned- specifically, they expected some people to be left for them to rule.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Along with sections for the Manga/Brotherhood and the 2003 Anime, could we maybe have a section for things that apply to both works/the fandom in general? A lot of the stuff (such as some of the stuff about ship wars, or the Broken Base over comparisons between the works) doesn't make sense to put in one or the other.
Edited by EmmaWoodhouse18
This entry is Thread Mode, can it be chopped down a bit? WITHOUT the personal stuff and Natter?
- Misaimed Fandom:
- Roy destroying Envy in the most painful way possible isn't supposed to be enjoyed by the audience. You're supposed to be worrying for Roy's sanity, not cheering for him to kick Envy's ass. The anime clears this up a bit, largely with the way the voices sound: Roy's tone is clearly that of a savage madman, and Envy sounds like a scared ten year old.
- To be fair, a lot of readers/viewers believed that Envy totally deserved it.
- Whether Envy deserved it or not isn't the point. If Scar had been torturing him/her, it would have been all right, because Scar had already surrendered to his rage long ago. The part you're supposed to focus on is Roy making the same mistake.
- Surely there's a middle ground where we can simultaneously enjoy Envy getting what's coming to him/her and fear that Roy's going past the point of no return.
- The characters agree that Envy needs to die (Riza plans on finishing Envy off herself, although Roy claims he doesn't want her to dirty her hands), but believe Roy doing it for vengeance is wrong.
- You can't fight how you feel about the scene, but there is room for both reactions. The shift from 'this is awesome' to 'this could get ugly' is roughly around Envy's Clipped-Wing Angel form reappearing.
Added the Character Alignment. if you have a problem with it discuss it here.
Re: The What An Idiot / Idiot Plot moment with Envy and May, since there was a justifying edit that I pulled for being Natter.
1. They don't take him that seriously, but he does demonstrate immediately that he can take control of people's bodies with a bite; he was just luckless enough to pick the Butt-Monkey. (If he'd gone directly for Ed or Scar, that scene definitely wouldn't be funny.) So he does still present some threat. And honestly, saying "it would take all of them to kill him" and then "they don't see him as a threat" is contradictory. 2. Given all the periphery things around Father's work, it would not be reasonable to expect that any such hidden knowledge would be any less immoral than philosopher's stones. Plus Envy goes above and beyond the call of malice; even if he did know a benevolent method of immortality he almost certainly would not give it away, not when he has the chance to watch people kill each other. (He gloats about specifically choosing to imperosnae an anti-intervention officer to shoot an Ishvalan child and describes the ensuing war as his favorite piece of work, mocks the Sadistic Choice given to Dr. Marcoh, and delights in manipulating humans.) Stones that get yanked out of homunculi turn to powder right away, as they found out when Roy killed Lust, so that's not viable. Even if it was they'd have done better to yank it out of him right then. 3. It might be unfair to say May is particularly gullible because of her looks and youth, except she demonstrates that she shouldn't be left alone with Envy because he did, in fact, convince her to do just what he wanted in the space of one conversation. I'm not saying anything against May. She's not a stupid kid and she has admirable courage and resolve. But she's been in Amestris for a short time (compared to how long she's lived in Xing) and she's ready to risk her life for the country; she's impressionable and gets really invested, which is why they even lectured her into going home in the first place. She's more than capable to help in a fight or heal grevious wounds or help uncover Scar's brother's research, but they're pretty much giving her a malignant talking weapon and sending her off alone. Not to mention that Envy got the better of Hughes and Ling: a war veteran and a highly intelligent prince who's been dodging assassination attempts since he could walk. You can justify that all as being sensible for yourself and that's okay, but that's the reason the YMMV page exists.
Edited by eowynjedi