Discussion YMMV / Bleach

Bump. I'm practically ready and awaiting response.

I agree with you. The exact composition of what a fictional Nue is doesn't provide enough context to leap to the conclusion that Renji's bankai is wrong. Especially since Bleach already takes liberties with legends and folklore.

It'd be like if we found out that all zanpakutou are actually fakes, since the real life legend of shinigami are based on the western Grim Reaper, and thus real "true" zanpakutou are supposed to be scythes.

^ I agree, and that was my main issue. A Meaningful Name can help in the sense of foreshadowing something, but if the work doesn't draw attention to that, it doesn't really qualify as foreshadowing since the work doesn't explain why the name is important.

Plus it being a Nue may be true but it also could come across as stretching since the imagery isn't outright enough to make that clear due to Zabimaru only appearing twice as far as I recall. It would be like saying Hollow Ichigo being Ichigo's true Zanpakutou spirit was foreshadowed because he looked like Ichigo, whereas in truth there are various statements and things that build up the reveal.

Why wouldn't it make sense? We saw what Zabimaruo looks like as a Zanpakto Spirit. He's a Nue, and I don't see why that wouldn't be a clue. Zabimaru's name even means snake tail, which already implies that it's only a portion of the true Zanpakto. And it's not like Renji's the first case of a Zanpakto being weaker because of a false name.

I don't see how it's stretching. The imagery seems rather clear to me. Also, the comaprison to Shinigami and Soul Reaper is wrong, since both are separate entities of folklore that happen to resemble each other.

Not to mention, that Bleach is a manga written in Japanese for a japanese audience. The Nue is hardly an uncommon concept. I don't see how it's the author's fault when the western fans don't latch onto the meaning. Even the original entry states that there's foreshadowing. It's asspull because the foreshadowing flew over the heads of those not speaking the native language of the original series.

There's too many assumptions that one would need to make for this conclusion to work, as well as too much knowledge of Asian mythology.

For example, Aizen is clearly named after Wisdom King Aizen Myo'o — benevolent god who frees Buddhists from lust and temptation. Going by the logic presented here, should we all be under the assumption that Aizen is actually Good All Along and that his goal was to prevent Ichigo to succumbing to some kind of temptation?

There's way too many leaps in logic that one needs to jump to, to come to the conclusion "Oh this doesn't fit the actual myth, therefore it's foreshadowing".

Furthermore, even if the imagery/name is meaningful, unless the work explicitly draws attention to the fact that the imagery/name is important, then one has to assume that the name or appearance is meant to just be a nice homage or reference. A lot of writers like to use meaningful names/imagery because its cool, and any deeper meaning tends to be the viewer prescribing it to the image or name.

I don't think saying its "us western's fault" is fair either. How many Manga/Anime use names like that and don't really have it be close to what they actually mean? The entry only mentioned the name because the name having meaning is the only way you could make any guess, but as mentioned thats basically assuming on the writers part. Is Toshiro's bankai, Daiguren Hyōrinmaru, roughly meaning Grand Crimson Lotus Ice Ring, supposed to tell us he can suddenly turn into an adult or make ice clones? Not by that name.

Also, the only characters we know who use false names for their Zanpakuto are Ichigo and Yumichika. Ichigo we are shown him being told those names and later the truth, while Yumichika reveals he is lying and the foreshadowing it set at early as the Soul Society arc. Both of those characters have reasons for using fake names while Renji doesn't. Zambimaru just randomly lies about it when nothing would foreshadow that.

Plus, Renji and Zambimaru have not really have the same kind of on screen interactions like Ichigo and Zangetsu/Hollow Ichigo, meaning when Renji first got his Bankai, the intent clearly was that Renji got his Bankai and that was it. Kubo realized in the last arc Renji wasn't strong enough and made the excuse his Bankai as a way of upgrading the Bankai and making Renji stronger. I'm not saying Kubo is a bad writer, just that it was clearly something he threw out last minute.

The point is that while the imagery and name exist, the work itself does not foreshadow or setup the idea that Renji has an incorrect Bankai, and it comes out of no where.

When Kubo originally planned Aizen, he was supposed to be good all along, it was only once he decided to plan for the final arc and expand the scope of the story did he decide that Aizen was the culprit. In that vein, Aizen's death was originally supposed the beginning of the big bag falling to temptation of the Hogyoku.

The name of his Zanpakto does tell that Hitsugaya has flower petals and flower based ice attacks. There's other foreshadowing for him growing up.

The Nue is hardly an uncommon concept, especially in Japanese Media and names are extremely important in Bleach. As it stands now, the entry even admits that there's foreshadowing, but dismisses it as easy to miss. Just because many didn't catch the foreshadowing, or it's small, doesn't make something an Asspull.

The point about Aizen is exactly my point: you can't take what mythology is "supposed" to be as foreshadowing of a story, specifically because an author can change anything they like whenever they want. If we take your logic at face value, then we still have to be wary of Kubo revealing that Aizen is still good, because that's how it works in mythology.

His zanpakutou's name also can't be "foreshadowing" because we only learn its name after he's been revealed as a villain and he's literally explaining what it does.

Again, are we supposed to know that Komamura's bankai has a second form that makes him literally invincible? His bankai has a ton of symbolism in it, based both on the Hagakure and the concept of Fudo M'yoo, but none of that equals "I can turn human and literally can't die".

Your argument is really stretching here.

The only reason I put the Meaningful Name point in the entry is to potentially address any issues that would come from not doing so. If I had just left it out, then this discussion would have started off with that point being mentioned, and the debate would have been sidetracked by it. The name is foreshadowing in the sense that the original Bankai name makes the new Bankai's name make sense, but thats only because we retroactively are told that it was fake.

Just because something has a meaningful name or appearance doesn't automatically mean it has meaning. There is a reason Faux Symbolism exists.

If every single Bankai or just name in the series was taken as literal as the translation allows, then many abilities would not at all match what they ended up looking. Urahara's Benihime would have to involve some kind of woman appearing since its name means Red Princess, while Tosen's Suzumushi would have to involve some kind of bug themed abilities (not counting his Resurrección) since its name roughly means Bell Bug.

The point being made is that this twist comes out of no where, and that the names don't qualify as foreshadowing in a medium where abilities/attacks are given names for Rule of Cool.

Also, your claims about Aizen don't have any evidence backing it up. Not saying that is a big deal, but claims like that are not really helpful to this discussion. I should avoid that as well, but wanted to comment on that.

Edit: I meant for Urahara's Shikai, not the Bankai.

Actually, Benihime does involve a woman. So not the best example.

But that's still different from Zabimaru.

Suzumemushi does have bug related sound abilities. It's Shikai creates sound waves that are like the chirps of a cricket. Not to mention Suzumemushi was originally Kakyo's not Tosen's. It's safe to say that Kakyo's Bankai wouldn't create a dome of darkness that takes away all senses.

Faux Symbolism doesn't apply to Bleach since it's a series that relies heavily on symbolism.

Regarding Aizen, Kubo did say in an interview that he decided on Aizen's killer only after he was killed.

You're cherry-picking. Suzumemushi has SOME elements of a bug, but lacks the form of a big, the biology of a bug, life cycle of a bug, etc, etc. Again, for your argument here to make sense, then we should be assuming that ANY element of a bug also applies to Suzumemushi.

Faux Symbolism can and does apply to any series, including Bleach.

See what I said earlier about Aizen My'oo. Aizen isn't a good guy, right? So that's Faux Symbolism. The only way your argument holds up is if we assume that Aizen is a good guy, like Aizen My'oo. Otherwise, the fact that Kubo changed his mind is EXACTLY WHY your argument doesn't work.

I think a good comparison of why it is an Ass Pull is to compare it to Ichigo's Bankai being revealed as fake.

If you look at the series from the start, there are various statements and comments about Ichigo's Bankai, like Byakuya being confused Tensa Zangetsu was a Bankai, Hollow Ichigo saying stuff like "I'll show you how I use this Bankai", and elements like how Ichigo's Bankai being explicitly more like a Quincy's ability.

Renji's Bankai is introduced with a fight with Byakuya where the story presents it as a genuine Bankai. The reveal it was fake comes after Renji shows up to use his new Bankai. The only things we knew going into his fight with Mask De Masculine was that his Bankai needed to be reforged due to it being damaged. Its basically right at the end of the fight, when he uses it, that this info comes up about it being fake.

So we have a Bankai that is given several hints and setup for something being off with it, and another where it happens basically right before it gets used.

Yes there is things like symbolism, but symbolism is not something that counts as foreshadowing because we have Faux Symbolism.

Besides the name and imagery, what, to you, counts as foreshadowing for it?

Its been almost two weeks and the conversation has stalled. I move that this be wrapped up.

Well, you know I agree with you. If you want to be certain, you could take it to ATT.

Discussion tab here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?type=att#comment-107098

FYI, Super Eyepatch Wolf has since unlisted that video for containing factual errors, and last month released a follow-up video apologizing for not correcting it sooner and re-evaluating Bleach.

1. There is inconsistent dialogue regarding the Espada. During the first Arrancar invasion on Earth, it was said that the Espada are ranked 1-10.

2. IIRC, Ichigo's hollow said that if his resolve slipped, he would take over, not if Ichigo died. There was never any indication that taking fatal damage would lead to the hollow taking over.

3. Segunda Etapa being explained in databooks doesn't matter when the form itself was revealed in-story. There was no explanation for it at the time. Explaining an Ass Pull after the fact doesn't make it less of an Ass Pull.

For the record, I'm mostly indifferent to this—slightly in favor of keeping the examples. I just felt like these specific arguments were incorrect.

1. The fight against Dordonni was more recent, plus it involved former Espada who would be more knowledgeable than a Fraccion. And again it was mentioned throughout Hueco Mundo that Yammy was not at full power. So, there has been foreshadowing for the reveal.

2. Hollow Ichigo literally warned Ichigo that he should not get killed if he wants to make use of his power or otherwise, Ichigo will become the horse.

3. It's not just that it was revealed in a databook. It was revealed in a way that ties Ulquiorra and his Segunda Etapa to the Myth Arc of Bleach, which started way before Segunda was revealed.

1. Again, I'm against that argument because it's using in-universe logic to try and explain an inconsistency. (Dordonii was more knowledgeable, thus he knew better.) Plus, being more recent doesn't make a plot inconsistency any less inconsistent. There's a reason why Bleach has an entry for Unreliable Canon.
2. He never said that. He said that he submitted to Ichigo being the "king" while he was the horse. He said "don't die until then", which I guess you can interpret it as saying he'd take over but sounds more to me like a The Only One Allowed to Defeat You proclamation.
3. It was still revealed in a databook, though. Tying into the Myth Arc is a given; the point is that in the story at the time, it came out of nowhere.

1. We had two conflicting statements by two different characters and one of them turned out to be true. That means one character had more accurate knowledge. Regardless of that, the statement that Espada are only single number put it into question how Yammy could then be an Espada. Coupled with Ulquiorra's regarding him not being at full power yet, implied that Yammy was much stronger than it was initially believed. That all counts as Foreshadowing. That Unreliable Canon applies to Shawlong has nothing to do with that.

2. He says, "If you will really want my to control my power, don't get killed." That means something will happen to that power if that happens, which as it turns out is Ichigo losing control over it. That plus Ichigo's extreme desire to protect Orihime lead to the transformation after his death.

3. In that case it should be mentioned that the databooks, extra chapters and novels explain Segunda Etapa and how it fits into the lore of the series.

1. That argument works backwards from the conclusion (Dordonii being correct) and makes many assumptions based on that. The issue is that there was no reason given to argue that Dordonii was more knowledgeable of the CURRENT Espada than Shaolong was other than "he was higher rank and turned out to be right", especially given that even later than that, Ulquiorra (who outranks HIM) later states that there are "three Espada more powerful than I" after his #4 tattoo gets revealed. From here, you can make another assumption that Ulquiorr was simply lying or bluffing, at which point we're once again working backward from the conclusion to speculate answers.
2. The full quote was, "Be sure not to die until the next time I appear". The latter part does not imply that he will appear WHEN Ichigo dies, but that Ichigo must stay alive until the next time the Hollow challenges him for the position. Again, you CAN interpret it as "I'll take over if you die", but the wording is so vague that that's hardly the base assumption. I think a fair compromise would be to say just that: state that this could possibly be Foreshadowing, but that the wording is so roundabout that it's fair that audiences interpreted it another way.
3. That's fine.

1. Dordonni was more knowlegable. He and Yammy at one point were both Espada. Yammy was among the very first Espada and the existence of Espada Zero was known to them. Yammy wasn't even the first Espada Zero. Ulquiorra did not tell the truth either. The databooks confirmed that he is stronger than Starrk, Harribel and Barragan. That still doesn't change that a) it has been stated that Yammy wasn't at full power b) that it was stated that the Espada do not include 10. Both count as foreshadowing.

2. There is still the fact that Ichigo's full Hollow form was alluded to in the Scarmask.

1. You're again using information from the databooks to work backwards. Again, this is NOT information the audience knew of or was aware of beforehand. Yammy not being at full power is too vague to be foreshadowing, and the statement about Espada being single-digit numbers was surrounded by conflicting statements which at the time they were stated the audience had no reason not to believe.
2. The form isn't the issue. It's HOW the form manifested which is the issue.

1. Why had they no reason to believe it? Why should they believe it less than the statement from Shawlong? The fact that there were two conflicting statements could have easily meant that there was something more going on, which turned out to be the case. Ulquiorra's statement about Yammy wasn't vague either.

2. How it was manifested was as I said said foreshadowed by Hollow Ichigo's statement.

In both cases the events were foreshadowed. You just interpreted them differently. That your interpretation ended up as wrong doesn't change that it was foreshadowing.

1. I said they had no reason NOT to believe it, and that's because Bleach tends to have its characters exposit a lot, and most of that exposition turns out to be correct. Also, when two statements turn out to give slightly different facts, an audience member doesn't know if either character is lying, both characters are Metaphorically True, or if the writer simply forgot/retconned a detail. You, again, are working BACKWARD from teh fact that Dordonii turned out to be right to claim "Oh, Dordonii was right, therefore we were supposed to believe him the whole time." And yes, "you aren't at full power" is vague. For all the audience knows, it could mean that Yammy is at 99% of his power, but not only a sliver of it is missing.
2. Again, you're working backwards from the way it turned out to conclude that one interpretation was correct. The point is that the wording did not give any indication that dying would release the Hollow. And please, do not make this about me—I didn't add the entry. Focus on the entry and leave guessing about what I thought or am thinking out of this, or I'll just take this to Ask The Tropers.

Which is probably going to end up happening anyway, because we're arguing back in circles now and my compromises are being ignored.

1. I don't see how it only becoming in hindsight clear invalidates it as foreshadowing.

2. Your argument so far is, that it doesn't count as foreshadowing, because it can be interpreted in other ways, which imo shouldn't be a reason. Plus, you are not really giving much room for compromise.

Anyway, it is best to bring this to the forum or to Ask The Tropers since we probably we probably won't come to an agreement anytime soon.

Regarding Yammy: That's not an Ass Pull so much as a Shocking Swerve.

Super-Hollow Ichigo: ... this one I lean towards Ass Pull. The implication up to the point through dialogue and actions so far wasn't that Ichigo was effectively immortal, it was that he needed Ichigo to be alive so he could take over. Later revelations cast that in a tremendously different light, but at the time it was utterly out of nowhere to resolve an unresolvable plot.

What Larkmarn said.

As I already said, that's only one interpretation of what Hollow Ichigo said. That he will take over once Ichigo dies is also a legit interpretation. One interpretation turned out to be right and the other wrong. I don't see how that invalidates that it was foreshadowing. Same for the Espada being single digit. And it being only in hindsight clear doesn't invalidate it either.

If you are agreeing that there was more than one "legit" interpretation of what Hollow Ichigo said, then that means the statement was too vague to count as legitimate foreshadowing. That applies to both of these examples.

In regards to the Hollow, as Larkmarn said, the implication up to that point was that the Hollow needed Ichigo alive, because otherwise the narrative tension is deflated. The entire reason people typically consider the Hollow takeover during the Ulquiorr fight to be an Ass Pull is because of that. The fact that Ichigo can have a hole blasted into his chest, survive, and then transform into an even STRONGER form invalidates any and all damage he takes in battle from then on, because the story can just surprise us with another "interpretation" of how his powers work.

One interpretation of Exact Words being right doesn't matter if that interpretation is beyond the audience's Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

It wasn't a vague statement though imo. The interpretations were both clear cut. There were only two interpretations and that he needed him alive, was imo the more fringe one. And the implication wasn't that he needed him to be alive. That was only an interpretation. The implication could very well have been that he will take over once Ichigo dies. And that has nothing to do with Yammy, where the statements were contradicting. That there were two contradicting statements means that something more was going on, which turned out to be the case.

Anyway, as I said, we won't reach any agreement here. Let's just put this to the forum or Ask The Troper.

The fact that multiple people are arguing about it, and that the scene is infamous in the fandom, means that it wasn't "clear cut". This is the Your Mileage May Vary section, not the "one opinion has to be proven correct" section.

Aizen was never killed. He is still alive in the epilogue, which takes place ten years later (after the novels take place). It should be "defeated".

He probably just hasn't had any YMMV tropes put on the page that apply to him. If anyone ever decides a YMMV trope suits him, they'd create a section for him under the Main Character folder and place it there.

Im actually cool with doing that.

Though I think it should be mentioned that this was because of the abrupt end and that the novels have the the Soul King mystery as its main plot.

Yeah i don't agree with that edit reason whatsoeve.

It might be worth doing a null edit to put an edit reason on the history page flagging this discussion. You might be able to get a range of responses that way. People don't often check Discussion Pages unless they have to.

While I'm not convinced by the edit reason that was given to remove the entry, I've got no problem with the removal of the entry (as it's currently written).

Given how the entry has been written, it reads as confusion between The Reveal and Ass Pull. Loyd is actually irrelevant to whether or not Royd defeating Kenpachi is an Ass Pull. Royd can only be an Ass Pull if the manga has made it impossible for Kenpachi to be defeated, which is patently not the case.

As a result, the entry (as currently written) comes across as complaining about a Sternritter reveal and a Kenpachi defeat that the author doesn't like.

For the record, I've got no problem with having a separate discussion about Choujiro's Bankai.

My argument was more about Royd existing at all. There was no indication that Yamamoto wasn't actually fighting Yhwach until he'd won.

I brought up Kenpachi to highlight the implausibility that he could easily defeat the Lloyd brother who could copy his powers offscreen along with two other Sternritter, but then suffers a Curb-Stomp Battle from the other brother who only resembles Yhwach but doesn't have his level of power.

"Royd can only be an Ass Pull if the manga has made it impossible for Kenpachi to be defeated, which is patently not the case."

Huh? Isn't that narrowing the use of "Ass Pull" to the point of uselessness? Looking through the definition, it seems that you may be arguing that Ass Pull requires that an outcome have been established as impossible before the moment the development occurs—but that isn't stated anywhere on the page nor on the laconic. The definition simply states that it's a plot-critical turn or twist that has no foreshadowing.

The sudden introduction of a character's twin, with powers that do not fit established rules, for the single purpose of leading to a powerful character's death, strikes me as exactly what the term Ass Pull was made for.

@K Oman: it's hard for us to know whether or not an off-screen fight is easy. We know almost nothing about it because our information comes from Kenpachi, who mentions it in only the very briefest manner.

However, Kenpachi implies that he had to become more powerful than he was at the moment Loyd copied him. The manga has clearly established for us that Kenpachi can only do that sort of thing if he's brought to the point of death. That isn't the definition of an easy fight, even for Kenpachi (they do tend to be his definition of an enjoyable fight, however, and he did indicate IIRC that he enjoyed the Loyd fight).

@ Nubian Satyress: No, that's not what I'm saying, although I appreciate my wording does appear to be somewhat confusing. Apologies for that.

As far as I know, there are no established rules that the twins are breaking. What rules did you have in mind there?

But Kenpachi looked uninjured by the time he arrived with the three dead Sternritter.

For the purpose of my post, it doesn't really matter what he looks like given that I was only talking about what Kenpachi discussed regarding his fight with Loyd since his description of the fight makes sense given what we've been told about how he obtains his power-ups.

It might be worth you asking on Bleach forum thread if you want a range of responses.

Hello, it was me who added the example. Yeah, I agree with you, I also think Deader Than Disco is a little bit too extreme to put it here, I just thought it might be relevant to add the analysis here under a trope entry and I couldn't think of a better one. But in my opinion, the fact that it's a fan review shouldn't be the main reason to detract from its message or the validity of it, whether you agree with all the assessments or not, personally I thought the analysis was unbiased and spot-on on many places (although I do disagree on some things); True, all reviews have a certain degree of bias and subjectivity but... after all, this is a YMMV page.

If an example is written properly to explain how the trope is being used, there's nothing wrong with additionally adding in a link to a fan review as an example to back-up the written entry. The problem is using a link to replace a proper write-up and also passing off (or at least implying) the link as an authoritative source of the industry facts when it's just an ordinary fan's personal speculation that happens to get certain objective, easily researchable information completely wrong (as many fan reviews of anything often do).

I'm sure there is a YMMV trope that will apply to what you're saying, and I'm not objecting to the existence of the link. It's just the trope being used and the way the link is being used in the example that I had a problem with.

I'm wondering if this is a combination of Seasonal Rot, Jumping the Shark and Kudzu Plot, rather than one specific trope. I think these three may already be listed, so it could be a case or rewording them to accommodate all this. You're right about it being hard to figure out which trope it actually is.

Ichigo's hollow form had already been seen. For Ichigo to conveniently get a new Hollow form when he was on the verge of death would be enough of an Ass Pull on its own, even if subsequent events didn't show us that it's not Ichigo's inner hollow at all, but a separate, completely unrelated entity that is inexplicably stronger than Ulquiorra, who had theretofore been beating Ichigo like a red-headed stepchild.

There was no hint that this creature existed prior to its appearance. At least, not to my recollection.

It's true a hollowfication form was seen while Ichigo was fighting his inner Hollow, but the reptilian shape of it threw fans for a loop at the time it happened - the reptilian shape not only didn't fit in with the humanoid hollow mask Ichigo kept manifesting, but it didn't fit in with the humanoid inner Hollow Ichigo kept talking to either. However, the Visoreds were also confused about what they were fighting, as Ichigo's Hollowfication was clearly somehow different to their own experiences.

The inner Hollow was saying things that also didn't gel with the Visoreds, and which caused questions in the fandom at the time - such as the inner Hollow stating it and Old Man Zangetsu were originally one being, that a balance of power kept shifting between them, and that the inner Hollow kept stating it was Zangetsu. The fight left it absolutely clear that we didn't know the full truth of the Ichigo's Hollowification, that this would be revisited at a future date and that should Ichigo ever verge on death something very dramatic would happen regarding his Hollowfication. That all spawned WMG at the time that never stopped until the truth finally came out years later.

In the meantime, his Hollow mask kept evolving with every power up and new battle experience, and the story made it clear that Hollow evolution did take Hollows from bestial forms to humanoid forms. So, when Ichigo's inner Hollow did finally manifest against Ulquiorra, it was after several Hollow mask evolutions and seemed to fit the bestial-to-humanoid theme of Hollow evolution. If anything, even though the new form did raise questions, fans had more problems with the reptilian form than the humanoid form.

I can see from your post that the foreshadowing did not unfold in the way you had anticipated, but that doesn't change the existence of foreshadowing. Foreshadowing isn't a map that explains every little detail before it happens, and the trope isn't about whether the foreshadowing is considered good or bad. If foreshadowing exists, it's not an Ass Pull.

Ass Pull entry under debate on YMMV page between two tropers. I pulled it here so they could sort it out and noticed this thread, which I'd forgotten about. Since it's the same entry and the same issue, I don't see the point starting a new thread, although if it's too confusing, go ahead and start one.

It looks like this entry was added back to the YMMV page on the 2nd February without an edit reason and without continuing/completing the discussion page conversation. It was then removed by a different troper and readded yet again. The two conflicting edit reasons are as follows:

11th April 2016: Removed, edit reason given.

14th April 2016: Readded, edit reason given:

I had completely forgotten about this discussion. My bad!

Ichigo's mask and the mask of his Hollow as seen in...whatshisface's training room (his name escapes me) are largely identical.

The new Hollow's mask is very different, notably in the giant honking horns coming out of it.

Hollows can evolve from bestial to humanoid forms. You know how they do that? By eating other Hollows. You know what Ichigo hasn't been doing the whole series? Eating Hollows.

Ichigo's hollow said a bunch of stuff about it also being Zangetsu and how it would take control if Ichigo ever dropped the ball. Congrats, that demonstrates that Hollgetsichigo gets control of Ichigo if he's about to bite the big one.

It doesn't demonstrate that the new hollow, one that is, again, completely separate from Ichigo's hollow, would take over when he was about to bite the big one.

He's almost bit the big one before. Where was that uber-hollow of doom when Byakuya murderstomped him? Or when he fought that Grand Fisher dude? Kenpachi? The first time he fought Ulquiorra?

Side note: It's entirely possible I actually have missed something, because it has been a very long time since I read those chapters, but I'm fairly certain I didn't. At least 80% ;p

No problem, I forgot about it myself.

Boop. Anyone gonna weigh in on this?

Hollows evolve by eating other Hollows because consuming spirits is the only way they can grow stronger. Part-Hollows like Visored wouldn't have this problem. Ichigo had grown stronger, so his Hollow form evolved. It's that simple.

The Hollow's power DID show up against Kenpachi, Byakuya, etc. Failing to notice the mask-shaped aura against Kenpachi is one thing, but how do you miss Ichigo turning Hollow against Byakuya? Those instances were the very power we're talking about, just a fraction of it. There IS no "new Hollow". It's the same Hollow Ichigo that just looks different because Ichigo himself is stronger.

Ichigo's Hollow form "evolving" is A: speculation and B: wrong, as we've already learned that it is the power of a hollow other than his own inner hollow.

Ichigo used the hollow mask and powers of his inner hollow during his fights Byakuya and Kenpachi. Or did I misremember his mask having two giant honking horns coming out of it?

Yes, there is a new Hollow, as we've already been shown. It is distinct from Ichigo's own inner hollow.

Par exempli: Ichigo's hollow form vs Ichigo's mask when he fought Byakuya. Note the similarities. This is the form that emerged when Ichigo was training with Urahara, because Urahara severed Ichigo's soul chain. It is the hollow that had been the focus of Ichigo's hollow powers up until Ulquiorra #2.

By way of comparison: The new hollow form. Note how it looks nothing like Ichigo's hollow and the mask is completely different. This is an experimental hollow created by Aizen that somehow possessed Ichigo's mother before he was born. Name of "White".

Technically you're right in him not being new. In-story, he's older than Ichigo. Out of story, he didn't exist before he gatecrashed and murderstomped Ulquiorra.

A: It's NOT speculation as we've seen changes in the small released portion of his Hollow across the story, and as regular Hollows evolve as they grow strong, why would Hollowfied Shinigami be any different?. B: "White" and Ichigo's Inner Hollow are one and the same. There has NEVER been any indication that they are separate entities; on the contrary, when White Zangetsu shows up again in the Final Getsuga training, he's wearing the horned mask and is NOT treated as a new character, instead reiterating that he'd take over if Ichigo dropped the ball, confirming anew that it WAS him that came out, just like always. Even with recent revelations, it only clarified that the Inner Hollow is White itself merged with Ichigo since BIRTH. It IS the same thing, and treating them as different is just unnecessary and baseless complication.

So your argument switched from "hollowfied shinigami are different, you can't compare them!" to "They're the same as regular hollows! That proves it!"

Regular hollows evolve by eating other hollows. By your logic, so must hollowfied shinigami. So then show me one single panel of Ichigo chowing down on Grimmjow. Taking a bite out of Dordonni. Enjoying some Grand Fisher a la Mode.

Hey this new character that never existed before is actually the same person as this other character that did exist! That proves I didn't make him up on the spot! Really!

Final Getsuga training took place after the Ulquiorra fight. Subsequent appearances of an asspull character don't make his initial appearance not an asspull.

Recent revelations did indeed clarify that White merged with Ichigo since birth, What they failed to do is reconcile the fact that Ichigo's inner hollow looks nothing like White.

"Oh well, OBVIOUSLY it just evolved."

Setting aside the method by which hollows evolve, it evolved into a form that looks nothing like it and then evolved again into a form that greatly resembles its original form? Yeah, not buying it.

I said that Visored are similar that they evolve, but different in that they don't need to eat other spirits to do it, which I ALREADY explained. Try actually processing all of an argument before trying to counter it.

Oh yeah, Hollow Ichigo and Hollow Ichigo are completely separate. Look, when I see Ichigo turn into a Hollow for the n-th time with only one source established for his Hollowness, I'm not going to assume it's an entirely separate spirit from the one it just came out of.

If you want to compare the Inner Hollow with White, here's something to think about; their flat, oval masks have the SAME EXACT SHAPE. So yeah, that argument cancels itself out.

What are you talking about, "evolved again"? When did Ichigo's Hollow form undergo a second change?

However you spin it, all I see is you saying they can't be compared then turning around and saying if something is true for one it must therefore be for the other.

Nor should you assume. Unless A: the new form displays power that utterly dwarfs everything the character in question has proven capable of producing up to that point and B: the work subsequently directly states that it is indeed a separate spirit, which, you know, it did. Really, A alone is sufficient to put it into Ass Pull territory. B just seals the deal.

Same shape? Really? That's what you're going with? The mask is the same shape, so OBVIOUSLY they're the same characters! Ignoring the blatant power discrepancy, the completely different appearances, the fact that the manga explicitly stated that they are different. Sure, same shape, same character. Lisa's mask is the same basic shape. Oval shape. Covers the face. The details differ, but the shape is consistent. From this are we to take that Ichigo and Lisa are the same character? Perhaps he evolved the ability to switch genders on the fly.

White was strong enough to lol at a guy that can fight Aizen, who casually outpowers people Ichigo barely pulled even against even when using what, according to you, is White's power.

When Urahara was training Ichigo why did Ichigo turn into a lizard-looking hollow and not White? Or the hollow that we saw when he fought Ulquiorra? The one that actually looks like White?

With White being strong enough to fight a guy that shits on captains, why didn't Ichigo solo the Soul Society while using his power?

I'll give you a hint: It's because White didn't exist at that time. Kubo didn't make him until Ichigo's second fight with Ulquiorra.

And as I said, even accepting that White's existence was forehadowed, it does little to justify the severe power boost that his appearance accompanied, so still an Ass Pull whatever way you wanna look at it.

That's not at all what I'm saying and you know it. I'm talking about their similarities AND their differences, and how the strengths of one make up for the weaknesses of the other. Hollows evolve as they grow stronger, Shinigami can grow independently, and Visored have BOTH qualities. Did I say Visored and Hollows were completely different? No. Did I say they were completely the same? No. So STOP putting words in my mouth and actually DISPROVE my argument.

I'm not talking about "basic shape", I'm talking about the fact that if you take away all the red stripes, White looked EXACTLY THE FLIPPING SAME as Ichigo's initial mask. There are similarities AND differences, so all this aesthetic nonsense is going to get us absolutely nowhere. THAT was my point.

No (and please do not claim intimate knowledge of a writing process you have no connection with), it's because he didn't HAVE that level of power back then. What part of "evolution" are you not getting? It's a growth that happens OVER TIME, a change in appearance we observed EVERY TIME that mask appeared.. White, however weak, DID come out, it simply LOOKED DIFFERENT because it HADN'T EVOLVED THAT FAR YET; it was the Hollow that comes from within Ichigo, which roughly translates to "INNER HOLLOW". Against Ulquiorra, a Hollow came out from within Ichigo once again, and what the crud else could that Hollow be than his INNER HOLLOW. The prospect of this being a different, separate Hollow originating from an non-established source is blatant, baseless assumption.

The big issue here is the Hollow's appearance change. I have just explained the incredibly simple reason for the appearance change, a reason that you have done absolutely nothing to disprove besides twisting my words. Your only remaining argument is your insistence that "White and Inner Hollow are separate beings" that has proven completely baseless. Can we PLEASE move on now? Until the "evolution of Hollowfied spirits" is actually disproven, there is no point in continuing this discussion.

P.S.: No, the manga never did confirm White as a separate spirit. It confirmed that White IS the Inner Hollow.

Your edit appears to be questioning how an entire Hollow could possibly be significantly stronger than just its mask. PLEASE tell me I'm misreading that.

Yes, the masks are exactly the same, except for the eye shape, the nose shape, the mouth shape and, oh yeah, the giant horns poking out the side. Oh wait...

The prospect of this being a different, separate Hollow originating from an non-established source is blatant, baseless assumption.

Except that, you know, it isn't. Because spoiler alert, we've already seen Ichigo's inner hollow and spoiler alert, it don't look like that.

it's because he didn't HAVE that level of power back then

Accounting for his pre-existence, totally ignoring that one time he went mano e mano with Isshin in his prime. Why would he need to evolve when he's already far more powerful than your average Captain level shinigami? Hint: He wouldn't.

He should have had the ability to murderdeathkill everyone in Soul Society short of Yamamoto. So why didn't he? It's almost as if Kubo weren't taking into account his power at that time. Possibly because, and this is just a guess here, he didn't exist at that time?

But sure, evolution. Maybe he evolved to become weaker so that Ichigo could preserve dramatic tension.

I have just explained the incredibly simple reason for the appearance change

"Evolution" is not an acceptable answer. Why would he evolve in such a way as to change his appearance completely, then change again to a form that more closely resembles his original form?

And again, you've yet to provide a reasonable answer for the power difference that White displays compared to literally every fight Ichigo has ever had.

"Oh well, obviously his hollow mask is weaker than his whole self."

So why didn't he use his whole self, exactly? Ichigo's been on the brink of death in like 90% of his fights. Perfect time to make good on his promise to take control if Ichigo dropped the ball. Which he does. A lot. Almost as if White didn't exist during those times.

Retroactively adding a powerful character to Ichigo's backstory doesn't make either his existence, nor, separately, his obscene power advantage over Ulquiorra not an Ass Pull.

You're right about one thing though. I don't see any reason to continue this discussion. Do as you like, I'm outtie.

Okay, you clearly missed the part about Ichigo's Hollow/Shinigami powers being REPRESSED for a majority of the series, so that whole mask thing was just a weaker state of the powers.

The "repressed" part wasn't stated at the time. It came later.

At the time Ichigo fought Ulquiorra, as far as we knew, that was the absolute peak of his abilities.

Agreeing with all of your reasons for pulling.

I'll give it another couple of days to see if anyone else responds.

I agree with these reasons. Specifically, people act like the Hogyoku's involvement cancels out Ichigo actually TRIGGERING the change (which it does not), and he DID mention its effect on Rukia (making that reiatsu transfer in the first chapter more absolute than she intended). Then there is the fact that someone thinks the way to show that Aizen couldn't connect with people not his equal in power... would be to have him connect with people not his equal in power.

The Byakuya example seems like it could be valid, though.

Having not read Bleach in a while, the example makes it seem he was pretty dead and from a Doylist perspective, he gave a Final Speech to boot. Even knowing that the Royal Guard is "something special" thinking that he'd have the right power for right then to resolve the plot can be an Ass Pull.

Honestly, I'd need more context to be sure. I just think it should be looked at a bit more closely.

The trope does not specify losing or Deus ex Machina.

On the subject of Unohana though, Kenpachi could have killed her when he was just a child, and the only reason he ever lost after that point is because he's holding back his full power. So right there, you're wrong.

Gremmy defeated himself because it was impossible for him to conceive of something stronger than Kenpachi. While theoretically an indication of Gremmy's limits and not Kenpachi's power, for all intents and purposes it establishes that Kenpachi is impossibly powerful.

Like it or not, he fits.

No, he does not. On Unohana it said that he could but he didn't so it more of Take Our Word for It. God mode means invincible and since Kenpachi was defeated twice in a row. He doesn't fit the trope.

I'm not seeing how Take Our Word for It makes it invalid. He completely speedblitzed her and stabbed her in the chest without her being able to even react.

Just because he didn't follow through with killing her suddenly he's incapable of doing so and it's only Informed Ability even though we are directly shown that it isn't? Poppycock.

Still that doesn't make him a God-Mode Sue. No one ever said that Gohan was a God-Mode Sue despite his mass potential.
God-Mode Sue makes everyone he or she fights look pathetic. Kenpachi had to be saved twice. God mode sues never need saving because they're too overpowered hence the name God Mode.

That isn't what Byakuya said in any translation I've seen. He didn't compare Ichigo's shikai to his bankai. He said that there was no way something as small as Ichigo's sword (he never mentioned the cloak) could be a Bankai. He said (paraphrasing), "Something that small is a bankai? It looks like an ordinary zanpakutou." He didn't compare the size of one to the other.

I still don't think it's all that "hilarious", though, unless you consider retcons and rewrites in general to be hilarious. There's also the fact that Byakuya is wrong about a great many things, to the point of being an Unreliable Expositor.

"Is that little thing your Bankai? It's an ordinary zanpakutou." to quote Viz.

My previous post was neither a quote nor a paraphrase, it was just a description of the scene. Byakuya watched Ichigo's blade shrink from massive to ordinary then commented on how little it was. Given that lots of Bankai swords look ordinary in size (including Byakuya's own Bankai swords), Byakuya really shouldn't have found the ordinary size surprising - unless he's been thrown by its size relative to its non-Bankai size. Ichigo does have the only Bankai in the entire story where size shrinkage occurs - everyone else's either stays the same or expands in some way.

Anyway, the trope seems to say the scene had to be funny originally and some later event makes it even funnier than it originally was. It was drama initially, not comedy. And, for some reason, the same scene being listed as Hilarious in Hindsight is also being used as a serious Foreshadowing example, so there is an issue there.

I made the edit based on looking at the list of Common Mary Sue Traits, and the character fits a number of the traits described - it's all t traits described put together into one character that brings it up for debate. As for the meaning of her name, she is literally the only character in the entire manga (outside of Yhwach's adaptaion of YHWH) that I can think who is named after a Japanese deity/folklore character in Bleach. I've been around my fair share of forums and seen a number of people using her name as a reason for her being "special" all the way up to being a child of the Soul King.

As for the Friend To All Living Things trope, I would remind you that she healed both Menoly and Loly after they had previously physically abused her, but I guess I assumed Friend To All Living Things also included people, not just animals and wildlife.

As I mentioned, she can be debated as not being one, as you have just done.

Also, the usage of a subbullet is wrong. Tropes are never subbullets to other tropes.

I could take the Mary Sue list and apply it to a lot of characters in Bleach. Without context to the traits, it's so easy to do in Kubo's work - off the top of my head, look at Ichigo, Byakuya, Kenpachi and Rukia. I could sit down and think of plenty of others.

I am not saying it's wrong for people out there to believe Orihime is their idea of a Mary Sue. It's a personal interpretation, which is what YMMV is about. What I'm saying is that the way your example is written, it's using such inaccurate, misleading, and at times completely wrong, information (your fixation on her name is one such example) that it looks like a personal agenda rather than a genuine entry.

Aside: you might want to take a look at the Friend to All Living Things trope if you think the Menoly/Loly incident is described by it - there isn't a single active character in Bleach that trope applies to (although there is one, single ambiguous hint that it might have applied to a deceased back story character about whom little is known).

I suppose that is all true, as I was speaking from personal experience, as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

Do you have any advice on how the entry would be better constructed without any bias in the description?

as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

It's very common for the fandom to discuss Aizen's comments about her powers violating the realm of God because the story raised that point and never explained it further so everyone has ideas on what it might mean. You don't seem to be using the actual story to produce your Mary Sue argument, you're saying that you think Orihime is a Mary Sue because of fan WMG. That's like using the contents of the WMG page to create the work's tropes instead of the work itself.

How do you interpret the story? That's where your YMMV examples should come from.

In a way, it depends on whether or not it is actually gone through with or not. After all, Inoue started off as a Human with no spiritual powers to speak of, but somehow she is the one who awakens powers that "violate the realm of God" when Sado only develops Fullbring - despite going through similar circumstances that led to him gaining spiritual power - and Tatsuki only develops spiritual awareness and no abilities?

Even Ichigo, who is a Transcendent, owes his unique nature and power to the circumstances under which his parents met; on the other hand, Inoue was just a normal Human with no spiritual power to speak of at the beginning of the series, yet she is the one out of all the Human characters affected by the Hogyoku to somehow develop reality-warping capabilities?

It sounds like you're complaining about plot points that simply haven't been revealed/completed by the author yet, or that the author isn't focused on your favourite character. Tatsuki is off-topic, she's a fringe character.

I think it's taking the trope title literally, i.e "saving power upgrade". I don't know these tropes well enough to find a replacement, though.