YMMV Bleach Discussion

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Wyldchyld
Topic
11:55:54 AM Jul 25th 2015
Hilarious in Hindsight: Waaaaaaay back in the Soul Society arc at Ichigo and Byakuya's fight at Sougyoku Hill, Byakuya was talking shit about Ichigo's Bankai being too small and puny to be a real Bankai. Fast forward a few hundred chapters and Yamamoto's Bankai is even smaller than that.
Moved to here because it's misrepresenting the manga. Byakuya compared the size of the bankai sword to the size of shikai sword, and there was much shrinkage involved. Yamamoto's sword never changes shape or size from shikai to bankai, but the area of effect of his bankai is vastly greater than the area of effect of his shikai.

This trope or not? If it is, it needs rewriting.
KingZeal
12:59:50 PM Jul 25th 2015
That isn't what Byakuya said in any translation I've seen. He didn't compare Ichigo's shikai to his bankai. He said that there was no way something as small as Ichigo's sword (he never mentioned the cloak) could be a Bankai. He said (paraphrasing), "Something that small is a bankai? It looks like an ordinary zanpakutou." He didn't compare the size of one to the other.

I still don't think it's all that "hilarious", though, unless you consider retcons and rewrites in general to be hilarious. There's also the fact that Byakuya is wrong about a great many things, to the point of being an Unreliable Expositor.
Wyldchyld
Topic
11:39:03 AM Jul 25th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Big Lipped Alligator Moment
  • Kon having a muscular body and re-introducing himself in 516 before Mayuri deflates him, the conversation goes on to zanpakuto in Bankai state get weaker every time they're broken without even mentioning this.


I've removed this because it only meets one of the three criteria for the trope.
  1. Appears out of Nowhere: Volume omake stories cover Kon's capture by the 12th Division and both Mayuri and Urahara experimenting on him, but people have to buy the volumes to read it.
  2. Strange in Context: this is the criteria it fits.
  3. Never Goes Anywhere: How do we know? The story hasn't finished yet, and Kubo always takes ages to wrap things up.
Wyldchyld
Topic
05:32:45 PM May 22nd 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
The Ass Pull examples I'm not sure should remain:

  • When Ichigo is seemingly fatally wounded by Ulquiorra, his hollow suddenly revives him and easily beats Ulquiorra. There was absolutely no indication that he had the power to bring Ichigo back from the dead, especially since Ulquiorra did the same thing to him earlier in the arc, and had to be healed by Orihime, nor that the hollow was even remotely powerful enough to hurt Ulquiorra.
  • Supposing it's true, Aizen's claims towards having been manipulating Ichigo's entire life. More debatable in light of recent plot developments, though.
  • The Hogyoku's role in the development of Ichigo's powers when it was supposedly dormant and sealed inside Rukia. Chad and Orihime got their powers due to exposure to Ichigo's shitstorm of spirit energy, yet Aizen claims that the Hogyoku granted their powers instead (and not mentioning anything it did to Rukia).
  • Aizen's motive and ultimate defeat contradicts... just about everything we've known of Aizen. To whit: the Hogyoku, having continuously given him shittons of power-ups, quite abruptly took away all of his powers, after which it was revealed that all along Aizen was lonely, and his motivation was I Just Want to Be Normal. Not only was Aizen's entire driving purpose to get more power, but he treated all of his followers as expendable tools, and even gutted Momo and Harribel pretty much For the Evulz. After spending the whole series gleefully tormenting and manipulating everyone around him, any attempt at humanization falls flat.
  • Byakuya somehow surviving after the first invasion when he was basically ground to paste and gave Ichigo what were pretty clearly his dying words.
  • Ukitake was always meant to be a replacement for the Soul King, because his body is the host of Mimihagi-sama, an ancient god who is also apparently the Soul King's right hand... Sure, we always knew that Ukitake was sick, but this twist is incredibly far-fetched and wasn't foreshadowed at all, leaving many readers at best puzzled, and at worst shattering their Willing Suspension of Disbelief.


Suggestions for pulling:
  • This is foreshadowed. The inner hollow does have a history of intervention, and explicitly stated it would take over should Ichigo ever be on the verge of death. The example seems to be more a complaint about how it was written, given that it's comparing two events that were only superficially similar.
  • Examples Are Not Arguable.
  • Fanon versus Canon. Fan theories debunked by canon, and it's on the fanon page. It might also be a Revision example, adding new info without rewriting canon (it did rewrite fanon).
  • Complaining. Aizen's motives have never been revealed, so fans had to guess. Urahara made a suggestion, Ichigo disagreed. Neither character is confirmed correct, the author won't give anything away in interviews and Aizen's return has been the opposite of humanising him.
  • The Royal Guard have been set up as something special for a very long time. Introducing Kirinji's powers was no more an asspull than introducing Ouetsu's powers, and the reforging of Zangetsu is not on this page as an asspull example. People didn't like him surviving, but that not this trope.
  • Prematurely added? It doesn't reflect what ended up happening in the story. Ukitake said he'd be the right-hand, not the Soul King. It quickly turned out it wouldn't work anyway. As to foreshadowing, we didn't know much about Ukitake's sickness until the subject of Yhwach's power discussed the the ability of combining two souls to deal with lung disease. Ukitake's sickness has been debated ever since: Mimihagi's existence wasn't previously known, but what happened to Ukitake is what was previously described.

VeryMelon
08:20:47 PM May 23rd 2015
Agreeing with all of your reasons for pulling.
Wyldchyld
05:11:37 PM May 26th 2015
I'll give it another couple of days to see if anyone else responds.
Wyldchyld
Topic
03:10:54 PM Dec 26th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
An entry that's just been added about Orihime:

  • Mary Sue: One of the most divisive examples that can be argued since she fits the Common Mary Sue Traits in a number of ways - although in other ways she can be debated as not being one. Her powers are considered ill-defined by many but are seen as "god-like" because of Aizen's statement of them "violating the realm of God" - meaning her power can undo what God has designated to occur on the ground level - and you have members of the 4th Division stating how her healing abilities are even greater than those of the 4th Division Vice-Captain despite only having her powers for a month at the most; her physical beauty is brought up on numerous occasions by various male characters, and children in her Middle School were jealous of her hair; her hairpins qualify as magic jewellery; her clumsiness is made a cute character trait and not a flaw; she has a Dark and Troubled Past involving a tragic family life; she redeems Ulquiorra through her overwhelming goodness; she is the one character in the series named after a deity (the weaver Orihime from Tanabata) or any character from Japanese folklore, and she is a Friend to All Living Things, no matter who the individual in question is.
    • Possession Sue: Fan theories surrounding the character also paint the character in this light. The more common ones link her directly to the Soul King, either as her daughter (per Tanabata, with the Soul King as the Jade Emperor) or creation as an explanation for her powers (going under the "Story Elements" aspect of Common Mary Sue Traits), despite the fact it would clash with what we already know of Inoue's backstory.


Brought here to question the entry's validity:

I've seen people discuss the limits of her power - like or dislike the character, people usually argue whether Aizen's comments are important or ignorable to the Reality Warper trope, not the Mary Sue trope.

I've only seen her SS arc power level mentioned in discussions on how powerful the True Companions were back then, since all the group were at, or above, lieutenant-level (after all having had the same training time). Like or dislike the character, people usually debate whether she was equal to her True Companions or much weaker. Again, not a Mary Sue debate.

The Middle School example is misrepresented; she was bullied for her unusual hair colour, same as Ichigo. Clumsiness and Dark and Troubled Past are barely relevant in the manga, and barely relevant to like/dislike debates that I'm aware of. Her beauty has been mentioned a couple of times, rarely as the point of a scene, except for one occasion where it was Played for Laughs. The debates I've seen have been about whether it's Informed Attractiveness, not Mary Sue.

I've never seen the meaning of her name singled out for debates, except in the Reality Warper debates, especially given that she's not the only character with a special name, and she's definitely not the only character with a name that comes from, or is inspired by, folklore, religion or historical heroes/villains.

Since this entry looks like it's twisting fandom discussions, and the opening sentence alone makes it look like a single troper's personal opinion (as does using the Friend to All Living Things trope, which doesn't apply to any Bleach character), I've brought the example here to see if it's a valid entry.

If it is a valid entry, I would suggest a rewrite on accuracy grounds.
saiyan5ninetail
03:59:05 PM Dec 26th 2014
I made the edit based on looking at the list of Common Mary Sue Traits, and the character fits a number of the traits described - it's all t traits described put together into one character that brings it up for debate. As for the meaning of her name, she is literally the only character in the entire manga (outside of Yhwach's adaptaion of YHWH) that I can think who is named after a Japanese deity/folklore character in Bleach. I've been around my fair share of forums and seen a number of people using her name as a reason for her being "special" all the way up to being a child of the Soul King.

As for the Friend To All Living Things trope, I would remind you that she healed both Menoly and Loly after they had previously physically abused her, but I guess I assumed Friend To All Living Things also included people, not just animals and wildlife.

As I mentioned, she can be debated as not being one, as you have just done.

SeptimusHeap
01:58:27 AM Dec 27th 2014
Also, the usage of a subbullet is wrong. Tropes are never subbullets to other tropes.
Wyldchyld
09:56:59 AM Dec 27th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
I could take the Mary Sue list and apply it to a lot of characters in Bleach. Without context to the traits, it's so easy to do in Kubo's work - off the top of my head, look at Ichigo, Byakuya, Kenpachi and Rukia. I could sit down and think of plenty of others.

I am not saying it's wrong for people out there to believe Orihime is their idea of a Mary Sue. It's a personal interpretation, which is what YMMV is about. What I'm saying is that the way your example is written, it's using such inaccurate, misleading, and at times completely wrong, information (your fixation on her name is one such example) that it looks like a personal agenda rather than a genuine entry.

Aside: you might want to take a look at the Friend to All Living Things trope if you think the Menoly/Loly incident is described by it - there isn't a single active character in Bleach that trope applies to (although there is one, single ambiguous hint that it might have applied to a deceased back story character about whom little is known).
saiyan5ninetail
09:28:26 PM Dec 27th 2014
I suppose that is all true, as I was speaking from personal experience, as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

Do you have any advice on how the entry would be better constructed without any bias in the description?
Wyldchyld
12:04:31 PM Dec 28th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

It's very common for the fandom to discuss Aizen's comments about her powers violating the realm of God because the story raised that point and never explained it further so everyone has ideas on what it might mean. You don't seem to be using the actual story to produce your Mary Sue argument, you're saying that you think Orihime is a Mary Sue because of fan WMG. That's like using the contents of the WMG page to create the work's tropes instead of the work itself.

How do you interpret the story? That's where your YMMV examples should come from.
saiyan5ninetail
12:23:06 PM Dec 28th 2014
In a way, it depends on whether or not it is actually gone through with or not. After all, Inoue started off as a Human with no spiritual powers to speak of, but somehow she is the one who awakens powers that "violate the realm of God" when Sado only develops Fullbring - despite going through similar circumstances that led to him gaining spiritual power - and Tatsuki only develops spiritual awareness and no abilities?

Even Ichigo, who is a Transcendent, owes his unique nature and power to the circumstances under which his parents met; on the other hand, Inoue was just a normal Human with no spiritual power to speak of at the beginning of the series, yet she is the one out of all the Human characters affected by the Hogyoku to somehow develop reality-warping capabilities?
Wyldchyld
04:58:49 PM Jan 4th 2015
It sounds like you're complaining about plot points that simply haven't been revealed/completed by the author yet, or that the author isn't focused on your favourite character. Tatsuki is off-topic, she's a fringe character.
Wyldchyld
Topic
07:32:51 AM Aug 9th 2014
edited by 2.101.111.125
I've removed the Germans Love David Hasselhoff example to here:
  • Americans for the series, one of Shonen Jump's "Big Three" in the states for over a decade now and still selling fairly well. In Japan while this was always less so, Bleach has faded hard in recent years. Perhaps most notably loosing its anime entirely which was replaced with a Naruto spin-off.


The fans seem to like comparing current sales to its temporary peak (a period of unusually high sales). The Japanese industry publish a "Top 50" manga list of the best selling manga in the industry. These are considered very successful manga. Bleach has never dropped outside that list and has never been outside the top half of it (the top 25). In Japan, it's never been either "Big Three" or unsuccessful - selling "fairly well" (to quote the example) is exactly what it does.
Wyldchyld
Topic
08:10:13 AM Jul 29th 2014
Moved this item to here:

  • Author's Saving Throw: All over the place, but the most notable one is Isshin declaring he's going to teach Ichigo the "Final Getsuga" so he can defeat Aizen, who by this time is pretty much a deity. It involves Ichigo merging with his Zanpakuto so he can become a human-sized Getsuga Tensho.


Author's Saving Throw is when an author writes something that turns things on their head and shakes-up the status quo, the fans revolt about the changes and the author is forced to rewrite things to salvage the situation.

How does the example above fit the actual intention? It seems more like an example for a different trope entirely.
SeptimusHeap
08:12:52 AM Jul 29th 2014
I think it's taking the trope title literally, i.e "saving power upgrade". I don't know these tropes well enough to find a replacement, though.
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