YMMV Bleach Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics
 

Wyldchyld
Topic
10:27:18 AM Dec 27th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Ass Pull entry brought here for discussion:

  • Ichigo's defeat of Ulquiorra after the latter entered Segunda Etapa. Ulquiorra basically one-shot him and as he was dying he suddenly revived by transforming into an ultra-powerful Hollow that casually curbstomped Ulquiorra without any explanation or Foreshadowing beforehand. It was much later given an explanation, but at the time, that transformation broke a significant number of rules that Bleach had thus far established.


I appreciate that Ass Pull is YMMV and I'm not querying any of the other entries. However, this entry has a couple of problems:

Ass Pull states that there should be no foreshadowing, and this entry claims there was none. This is incorrect. The inner hollow openly stated that if Ichigo ever reaches the point of death, it will take full control of Ichigo's body. That is what happened here. Now, whether or not people like how it was handled is another matter (but wouldn't be Ass Pull).

The entry also claims it's an Ass Pull because the event breaks existing rules. I've read the manga and I can't work out what rules this entry is talking about. This bit needs some clarification, but even with clarification, the event was foreshadowed.
Eagal
11:57:26 PM Dec 31st 2015
edited by Eagal
Ichigo's hollow form had already been seen. For Ichigo to conveniently get a new Hollow form when he was on the verge of death would be enough of an Ass Pull on its own, even if subsequent events didn't show us that it's not Ichigo's inner hollow at all, but a separate, completely unrelated entity that is inexplicably stronger than Ulquiorra, who had theretofore been beating Ichigo like a red-headed stepchild.

There was no hint that this creature existed prior to its appearance. At least, not to my recollection.
Wyldchyld
03:57:27 PM Mar 30th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
It's true a hollowfication form was seen while Ichigo was fighting his inner Hollow, but the reptilian shape of it threw fans for a loop at the time it happened - the reptilian shape not only didn't fit in with the humanoid hollow mask Ichigo kept manifesting, but it didn't fit in with the humanoid inner Hollow Ichigo kept talking to either. However, the Visoreds were also confused about what they were fighting, as Ichigo's Hollowfication was clearly somehow different to their own experiences.

The inner Hollow was saying things that also didn't gel with the Visoreds, and which caused questions in the fandom at the time - such as the inner Hollow stating it and Old Man Zangetsu were originally one being, that a balance of power kept shifting between them, and that the inner Hollow kept stating it was Zangetsu. The fight left it absolutely clear that we didn't know the full truth of the Ichigo's Hollowification, that this would be revisited at a future date and that should Ichigo ever verge on death something very dramatic would happen regarding his Hollowfication. That all spawned WMG at the time that never stopped until the truth finally came out years later.

In the meantime, his Hollow mask kept evolving with every power up and new battle experience, and the story made it clear that Hollow evolution did take Hollows from bestial forms to humanoid forms. So, when Ichigo's inner Hollow did finally manifest against Ulquiorra, it was after several Hollow mask evolutions and seemed to fit the bestial-to-humanoid theme of Hollow evolution. If anything, even though the new form did raise questions, fans had more problems with the reptilian form than the humanoid form.

I can see from your post that the foreshadowing did not unfold in the way you had anticipated, but that doesn't change the existence of foreshadowing. Foreshadowing isn't a map that explains every little detail before it happens, and the trope isn't about whether the foreshadowing is considered good or bad. If foreshadowing exists, it's not an Ass Pull.
Wyldchyld
06:17:15 PM Apr 15th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Ass Pull entry under debate on YMMV page between two tropers. I pulled it here so they could sort it out and noticed this thread, which I'd forgotten about. Since it's the same entry and the same issue, I don't see the point starting a new thread, although if it's too confusing, go ahead and start one.

It looks like this entry was added back to the YMMV page on the 2nd February without an edit reason and without continuing/completing the discussion page conversation. It was then removed by a different troper and readded yet again. The two conflicting edit reasons are as follows:

11th April 2016: Removed, edit reason given.
This was not an "Asspull" no matter how much the fandumb claims it it, we've know for a while now that Ichigo could go hollow, heck "white" Zangetsu himself said that he would come back, plus whenever Ichigo put on his hollow mask an extra stripe would appear which is obviously supposed to be taken as a subtle countdown.

14th April 2016: Readded, edit reason given:
1: Ichigo's hollow form has already been seen. Spoiler alert, it looks nothing like this one, because 2: as mentioned the new form is explicitly not a result of his inner hollow emerging , but an entirely separate being whose existence was not explained until several dozen chapters later. 3: Even in the unlikely event that the addition of stripes on Ichigo's hollow mask can somehow be construed as a countdown, that is not sufficient to justify Ulquiorra's defeat because 4: refer back to the fact that the transformation is a result on a theretofore non-existent entity. A countdown to a deus ex machina doesn't make it not a deus ex machina.
Eagal
09:02:51 PM Apr 15th 2016
edited by Eagal
I had completely forgotten about this discussion. My bad!

Ichigo's mask and the mask of his Hollow as seen in...whatshisface's training room (his name escapes me) are largely identical.

The new Hollow's mask is very different, notably in the giant honking horns coming out of it.

Hollows can evolve from bestial to humanoid forms. You know how they do that? By eating other Hollows. You know what Ichigo hasn't been doing the whole series? Eating Hollows.

Ichigo's hollow said a bunch of stuff about it also being Zangetsu and how it would take control if Ichigo ever dropped the ball. Congrats, that demonstrates that Hollgetsichigo gets control of Ichigo if he's about to bite the big one.

It doesn't demonstrate that the new hollow, one that is, again, completely separate from Ichigo's hollow, would take over when he was about to bite the big one.

He's almost bit the big one before. Where was that uber-hollow of doom when Byakuya murderstomped him? Or when he fought that Grand Fisher dude? Kenpachi? The first time he fought Ulquiorra?

Side note: It's entirely possible I actually have missed something, because it has been a very long time since I read those chapters, but I'm fairly certain I didn't. At least 80% ;p
Wyldchyld
06:55:17 AM Apr 16th 2016
No problem, I forgot about it myself.
Eagal
12:00:24 PM Apr 29th 2016
Boop. Anyone gonna weigh in on this?
DenisK21
05:45:53 AM Jun 1st 2016
Hollows evolve by eating other Hollows because consuming spirits is the only way they can grow stronger. Part-Hollows like Visored wouldn't have this problem. Ichigo had grown stronger, so his Hollow form evolved. It's that simple.
DenisK21
06:10:06 AM Jun 1st 2016
edited by DenisK21
The Hollow's power DID show up against Kenpachi, Byakuya, etc. Failing to notice the mask-shaped aura against Kenpachi is one thing, but how do you miss Ichigo turning Hollow against Byakuya? Those instances were the very power we're talking about, just a fraction of it. There IS no "new Hollow". It's the same Hollow Ichigo that just looks different because Ichigo himself is stronger.
Eagal
10:08:09 AM Jun 1st 2016
edited by Eagal
Ichigo's Hollow form "evolving" is A: speculation and B: wrong, as we've already learned that it is the power of a hollow other than his own inner hollow.

Ichigo used the hollow mask and powers of his inner hollow during his fights Byakuya and Kenpachi. Or did I misremember his mask having two giant honking horns coming out of it?

Yes, there is a new Hollow, as we've already been shown. It is distinct from Ichigo's own inner hollow.

Par exempli: Ichigo's hollow form vs Ichigo's mask when he fought Byakuya. Note the similarities. This is the form that emerged when Ichigo was training with Urahara, because Urahara severed Ichigo's soul chain. It is the hollow that had been the focus of Ichigo's hollow powers up until Ulquiorra #2.

By way of comparison: The new hollow form. Note how it looks nothing like Ichigo's hollow and the mask is completely different. This is an experimental hollow created by Aizen that somehow possessed Ichigo's mother before he was born. Name of "White".

Technically you're right in him not being new. In-story, he's older than Ichigo. Out of story, he didn't exist before he gatecrashed and murderstomped Ulquiorra.
DenisK21
10:50:47 AM Jun 1st 2016
A: It's NOT speculation as we've seen changes in the small released portion of his Hollow across the story, and as regular Hollows evolve as they grow strong, why would Hollowfied Shinigami be any different?. B: "White" and Ichigo's Inner Hollow are one and the same. There has NEVER been any indication that they are separate entities; on the contrary, when White Zangetsu shows up again in the Final Getsuga training, he's wearing the horned mask and is NOT treated as a new character, instead reiterating that he'd take over if Ichigo dropped the ball, confirming anew that it WAS him that came out, just like always. Even with recent revelations, it only clarified that the Inner Hollow is White itself merged with Ichigo since BIRTH. It IS the same thing, and treating them as different is just unnecessary and baseless complication.
Eagal
11:10:38 AM Jun 1st 2016
So your argument switched from "hollowfied shinigami are different, you can't compare them!" to "They're the same as regular hollows! That proves it!"

Regular hollows evolve by eating other hollows. By your logic, so must hollowfied shinigami. So then show me one single panel of Ichigo chowing down on Grimmjow. Taking a bite out of Dordonni. Enjoying some Grand Fisher a la Mode.

Hey this new character that never existed before is actually the same person as this other character that did exist! That proves I didn't make him up on the spot! Really!

Final Getsuga training took place after the Ulquiorra fight. Subsequent appearances of an asspull character don't make his initial appearance not an asspull.

Recent revelations did indeed clarify that White merged with Ichigo since birth, What they failed to do is reconcile the fact that Ichigo's inner hollow looks nothing like White.

"Oh well, OBVIOUSLY it just evolved."

Setting aside the method by which hollows evolve, it evolved into a form that looks nothing like it and then evolved again into a form that greatly resembles its original form? Yeah, not buying it.
DenisK21
11:22:00 AM Jun 1st 2016
I said that Visored are similar that they evolve, but different in that they don't need to eat other spirits to do it, which I ALREADY explained. Try actually processing all of an argument before trying to counter it.

Oh yeah, Hollow Ichigo and Hollow Ichigo are completely separate. Look, when I see Ichigo turn into a Hollow for the n-th time with only one source established for his Hollowness, I'm not going to assume it's an entirely separate spirit from the one it just came out of.

If you want to compare the Inner Hollow with White, here's something to think about; their flat, oval masks have the SAME EXACT SHAPE. So yeah, that argument cancels itself out.

What are you talking about, "evolved again"? When did Ichigo's Hollow form undergo a second change?
Eagal
03:26:32 PM Jun 1st 2016
edited by Eagal
However you spin it, all I see is you saying they can't be compared then turning around and saying if something is true for one it must therefore be for the other.

Nor should you assume. Unless A: the new form displays power that utterly dwarfs everything the character in question has proven capable of producing up to that point and B: the work subsequently directly states that it is indeed a separate spirit, which, you know, it did. Really, A alone is sufficient to put it into Ass Pull territory. B just seals the deal.

Same shape? Really? That's what you're going with? The mask is the same shape, so OBVIOUSLY they're the same characters! Ignoring the blatant power discrepancy, the completely different appearances, the fact that the manga explicitly stated that they are different. Sure, same shape, same character. Lisa's mask is the same basic shape. Oval shape. Covers the face. The details differ, but the shape is consistent. From this are we to take that Ichigo and Lisa are the same character? Perhaps he evolved the ability to switch genders on the fly.

White was strong enough to lol at a guy that can fight Aizen, who casually outpowers people Ichigo barely pulled even against even when using what, according to you, is White's power.

When Urahara was training Ichigo why did Ichigo turn into a lizard-looking hollow and not White? Or the hollow that we saw when he fought Ulquiorra? The one that actually looks like White?

With White being strong enough to fight a guy that shits on captains, why didn't Ichigo solo the Soul Society while using his power?

I'll give you a hint: It's because White didn't exist at that time. Kubo didn't make him until Ichigo's second fight with Ulquiorra.

And as I said, even accepting that White's existence was forehadowed, it does little to justify the severe power boost that his appearance accompanied, so still an Ass Pull whatever way you wanna look at it.
DenisK21
04:07:43 PM Jun 1st 2016
edited by DenisK21
That's not at all what I'm saying and you know it. I'm talking about their similarities AND their differences, and how the strengths of one make up for the weaknesses of the other. Hollows evolve as they grow stronger, Shinigami can grow independently, and Visored have BOTH qualities. Did I say Visored and Hollows were completely different? No. Did I say they were completely the same? No. So STOP putting words in my mouth and actually DISPROVE my argument.

I'm not talking about "basic shape", I'm talking about the fact that if you take away all the red stripes, White looked EXACTLY THE FLIPPING SAME as Ichigo's initial mask. There are similarities AND differences, so all this aesthetic nonsense is going to get us absolutely nowhere. THAT was my point.

No (and please do not claim intimate knowledge of a writing process you have no connection with), it's because he didn't HAVE that level of power back then. What part of "evolution" are you not getting? It's a growth that happens OVER TIME, a change in appearance we observed EVERY TIME that mask appeared.. White, however weak, DID come out, it simply LOOKED DIFFERENT because it HADN'T EVOLVED THAT FAR YET; it was the Hollow that comes from within Ichigo, which roughly translates to "INNER HOLLOW". Against Ulquiorra, a Hollow came out from within Ichigo once again, and what the crud else could that Hollow be than his INNER HOLLOW. The prospect of this being a different, separate Hollow originating from an non-established source is blatant, baseless assumption.

The big issue here is the Hollow's appearance change. I have just explained the incredibly simple reason for the appearance change, a reason that you have done absolutely nothing to disprove besides twisting my words. Your only remaining argument is your insistence that "White and Inner Hollow are separate beings" that has proven completely baseless. Can we PLEASE move on now? Until the "evolution of Hollowfied spirits" is actually disproven, there is no point in continuing this discussion.
DenisK21
04:09:41 PM Jun 1st 2016
P.S.: No, the manga never did confirm White as a separate spirit. It confirmed that White IS the Inner Hollow.
DenisK21
05:32:04 PM Jun 1st 2016
edited by DenisK21
Your edit appears to be questioning how an entire Hollow could possibly be significantly stronger than just its mask. PLEASE tell me I'm misreading that.
Eagal
11:03:20 PM Jun 1st 2016
edited by Eagal
Yes, the masks are exactly the same, except for the eye shape, the nose shape, the mouth shape and, oh yeah, the giant horns poking out the side. Oh wait...

The prospect of this being a different, separate Hollow originating from an non-established source is blatant, baseless assumption.

Except that, you know, it isn't. Because spoiler alert, we've already seen Ichigo's inner hollow and spoiler alert, it don't look like that.

it's because he didn't HAVE that level of power back then

Accounting for his pre-existence, totally ignoring that one time he went mano e mano with Isshin in his prime. Why would he need to evolve when he's already far more powerful than your average Captain level shinigami? Hint: He wouldn't.

He should have had the ability to murderdeathkill everyone in Soul Society short of Yamamoto. So why didn't he? It's almost as if Kubo weren't taking into account his power at that time. Possibly because, and this is just a guess here, he didn't exist at that time?

But sure, evolution. Maybe he evolved to become weaker so that Ichigo could preserve dramatic tension.

I have just explained the incredibly simple reason for the appearance change

"Evolution" is not an acceptable answer. Why would he evolve in such a way as to change his appearance completely, then change again to a form that more closely resembles his original form?

And again, you've yet to provide a reasonable answer for the power difference that White displays compared to literally every fight Ichigo has ever had.

"Oh well, obviously his hollow mask is weaker than his whole self."

So why didn't he use his whole self, exactly? Ichigo's been on the brink of death in like 90% of his fights. Perfect time to make good on his promise to take control if Ichigo dropped the ball. Which he does. A lot. Almost as if White didn't exist during those times.

Retroactively adding a powerful character to Ichigo's backstory doesn't make either his existence, nor, separately, his obscene power advantage over Ulquiorra not an Ass Pull.

You're right about one thing though. I don't see any reason to continue this discussion. Do as you like, I'm outtie.
Jmariofan77
09:27:31 PM Jun 8th 2016
Okay, you clearly missed the part about Ichigo's Hollow/Shinigami powers being REPRESSED for a majority of the series, so that whole mask thing was just a weaker state of the powers.
Wyldchyld
Topic
02:57:16 PM Sep 28th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Hitsugaya has been referenced for the following trope:

  • Author's Saving Throw: After zombifying and torturing Toshiro at the hands of two of the biggest sadists in the series' history, it turned out that Kurotsuchi was working on curing him, revealing a restored Toshiro after defeating Pernida.


Aside from needing rewriting to fix the spoiler tag problem, this seems to be a misrepresentation of the situation. When Hitsugaya was turned, it was quickly explained that he was turned before death and that the main issue with him was subjugation of his will. Author's Saving Throw is about the author going out on a limb to change the status quo of the story and then back-tracking when the fans revolt. But this was only ever portrayed as a Badass in Distress scenario, not an attempt to change the direction of the story. The twist seems to be that Mayuri cured him so quickly; he was always going to be saved somehow.
KantonKage
Topic
07:37:01 AM Aug 26th 2015
Kenpachi is not a God-Mode Sue because he lost repeatedly to Unohana and after Gremmy defeated himself Kenpachi was severely weakened afterwards and was nearly killed by another Sternritter. Then his next has almost killed yet again. God-Mode Sue don't lose unless it's a Deus ex Machina of some sort.
Eagal
01:02:36 AM Sep 16th 2015
The trope does not specify losing or Deus ex Machina.

On the subject of Unohana though, Kenpachi could have killed her when he was just a child, and the only reason he ever lost after that point is because he's holding back his full power. So right there, you're wrong.

Gremmy defeated himself because it was impossible for him to conceive of something stronger than Kenpachi. While theoretically an indication of Gremmy's limits and not Kenpachi's power, for all intents and purposes it establishes that Kenpachi is impossibly powerful.

Like it or not, he fits.
KantonKage
11:44:47 AM Sep 16th 2015
No, he does not. On Unohana it said that he could but he didn't so it more of Take Our Word for It. God mode means invincible and since Kenpachi was defeated twice in a row. He doesn't fit the trope.
Eagal
09:38:12 PM Sep 18th 2015
I'm not seeing how Take Our Word for It makes it invalid. He completely speedblitzed her and stabbed her in the chest without her being able to even react.

Just because he didn't follow through with killing her suddenly he's incapable of doing so and it's only Informed Ability even though we are directly shown that it isn't? Poppycock.
KantonKage
09:07:54 PM Sep 24th 2015
Still that doesn't make him a God-Mode Sue. No one ever said that Gohan was a God-Mode Sue despite his mass potential.
God-Mode Sue makes everyone he or she fights look pathetic. Kenpachi had to be saved twice. God mode sues never need saving because they're too overpowered hence the name God Mode.
Wyldchyld
Topic
11:55:54 AM Jul 25th 2015
Hilarious in Hindsight: Waaaaaaay back in the Soul Society arc at Ichigo and Byakuya's fight at Sougyoku Hill, Byakuya was talking shit about Ichigo's Bankai being too small and puny to be a real Bankai. Fast forward a few hundred chapters and Yamamoto's Bankai is even smaller than that.
Moved to here because it's misrepresenting the manga. Byakuya compared the size of the bankai sword to the size of shikai sword, and there was much shrinkage involved. Yamamoto's sword never changes shape or size from shikai to bankai, but the area of effect of his bankai is vastly greater than the area of effect of his shikai.

This trope or not? If it is, it needs rewriting.
KingZeal
12:59:50 PM Jul 25th 2015
That isn't what Byakuya said in any translation I've seen. He didn't compare Ichigo's shikai to his bankai. He said that there was no way something as small as Ichigo's sword (he never mentioned the cloak) could be a Bankai. He said (paraphrasing), "Something that small is a bankai? It looks like an ordinary zanpakutou." He didn't compare the size of one to the other.

I still don't think it's all that "hilarious", though, unless you consider retcons and rewrites in general to be hilarious. There's also the fact that Byakuya is wrong about a great many things, to the point of being an Unreliable Expositor.
Wyldchyld
04:24:12 PM Aug 4th 2015
"Is that little thing your Bankai? It's an ordinary zanpakutou." to quote Viz.

My previous post was neither a quote nor a paraphrase, it was just a description of the scene. Byakuya watched Ichigo's blade shrink from massive to ordinary then commented on how little it was. Given that lots of Bankai swords look ordinary in size (including Byakuya's own Bankai swords), Byakuya really shouldn't have found the ordinary size surprising - unless he's been thrown by its size relative to its non-Bankai size. Ichigo does have the only Bankai in the entire story where size shrinkage occurs - everyone else's either stays the same or expands in some way.

Anyway, the trope seems to say the scene had to be funny originally and some later event makes it even funnier than it originally was. It was drama initially, not comedy. And, for some reason, the same scene being listed as Hilarious in Hindsight is also being used as a serious Foreshadowing example, so there is an issue there.
Wyldchyld
Topic
11:39:03 AM Jul 25th 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
Big Lipped Alligator Moment
  • Kon having a muscular body and re-introducing himself in 516 before Mayuri deflates him, the conversation goes on to zanpakuto in Bankai state get weaker every time they're broken without even mentioning this.


I've removed this because it only meets one of the three criteria for the trope.
  1. Appears out of Nowhere: Volume omake stories cover Kon's capture by the 12th Division and both Mayuri and Urahara experimenting on him, but people have to buy the volumes to read it.
  2. Strange in Context: this is the criteria it fits.
  3. Never Goes Anywhere: How do we know? The story hasn't finished yet, and Kubo always takes ages to wrap things up.
Wyldchyld
Topic
05:32:45 PM May 22nd 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
The Ass Pull examples I'm not sure should remain:

  • When Ichigo is seemingly fatally wounded by Ulquiorra, his hollow suddenly revives him and easily beats Ulquiorra. There was absolutely no indication that he had the power to bring Ichigo back from the dead, especially since Ulquiorra did the same thing to him earlier in the arc, and had to be healed by Orihime, nor that the hollow was even remotely powerful enough to hurt Ulquiorra.
  • Supposing it's true, Aizen's claims towards having been manipulating Ichigo's entire life. More debatable in light of recent plot developments, though.
  • The Hogyoku's role in the development of Ichigo's powers when it was supposedly dormant and sealed inside Rukia. Chad and Orihime got their powers due to exposure to Ichigo's shitstorm of spirit energy, yet Aizen claims that the Hogyoku granted their powers instead (and not mentioning anything it did to Rukia).
  • Aizen's motive and ultimate defeat contradicts... just about everything we've known of Aizen. To whit: the Hogyoku, having continuously given him shittons of power-ups, quite abruptly took away all of his powers, after which it was revealed that all along Aizen was lonely, and his motivation was I Just Want to Be Normal. Not only was Aizen's entire driving purpose to get more power, but he treated all of his followers as expendable tools, and even gutted Momo and Harribel pretty much For the Evulz. After spending the whole series gleefully tormenting and manipulating everyone around him, any attempt at humanization falls flat.
  • Byakuya somehow surviving after the first invasion when he was basically ground to paste and gave Ichigo what were pretty clearly his dying words.
  • Ukitake was always meant to be a replacement for the Soul King, because his body is the host of Mimihagi-sama, an ancient god who is also apparently the Soul King's right hand... Sure, we always knew that Ukitake was sick, but this twist is incredibly far-fetched and wasn't foreshadowed at all, leaving many readers at best puzzled, and at worst shattering their Willing Suspension of Disbelief.


Suggestions for pulling:
  • This is foreshadowed. The inner hollow does have a history of intervention, and explicitly stated it would take over should Ichigo ever be on the verge of death. The example seems to be more a complaint about how it was written, given that it's comparing two events that were only superficially similar.
  • Examples Are Not Arguable.
  • Fanon versus Canon. Fan theories debunked by canon, and it's on the fanon page. It might also be a Revision example, adding new info without rewriting canon (it did rewrite fanon).
  • Complaining. Aizen's motives have never been revealed, so fans had to guess. Urahara made a suggestion, Ichigo disagreed. Neither character is confirmed correct, the author won't give anything away in interviews and Aizen's return has been the opposite of humanising him.
  • The Royal Guard have been set up as something special for a very long time. Introducing Kirinji's powers was no more an asspull than introducing Ouetsu's powers, and the reforging of Zangetsu is not on this page as an asspull example. People didn't like him surviving, but that not this trope.
  • Prematurely added? It doesn't reflect what ended up happening in the story. Ukitake said he'd be the right-hand, not the Soul King. It quickly turned out it wouldn't work anyway. As to foreshadowing, we didn't know much about Ukitake's sickness until the subject of Yhwach's power discussed the the ability of combining two souls to deal with lung disease. Ukitake's sickness has been debated ever since: Mimihagi's existence wasn't previously known, but what happened to Ukitake is what was previously described.

VeryMelon
08:20:47 PM May 23rd 2015
Agreeing with all of your reasons for pulling.
Wyldchyld
05:11:37 PM May 26th 2015
I'll give it another couple of days to see if anyone else responds.
DenisK21
06:31:27 AM Jun 1st 2016
I agree with these reasons. Specifically, people act like the Hogyoku's involvement cancels out Ichigo actually TRIGGERING the change (which it does not), and he DID mention its effect on Rukia (making that reiatsu transfer in the first chapter more absolute than she intended). Then there is the fact that someone thinks the way to show that Aizen couldn't connect with people not his equal in power... would be to have him connect with people not his equal in power.
Larkmarn
09:14:10 AM Jun 1st 2016
The Byakuya example seems like it could be valid, though.

Having not read Bleach in a while, the example makes it seem he was pretty dead and from a Doylist perspective, he gave a Final Speech to boot. Even knowing that the Royal Guard is "something special" thinking that he'd have the right power for right then to resolve the plot can be an Ass Pull.

Honestly, I'd need more context to be sure. I just think it should be looked at a bit more closely.
Wyldchyld
Topic
03:10:54 PM Dec 26th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
An entry that's just been added about Orihime:

  • Mary Sue: One of the most divisive examples that can be argued since she fits the Common Mary Sue Traits in a number of ways - although in other ways she can be debated as not being one. Her powers are considered ill-defined by many but are seen as "god-like" because of Aizen's statement of them "violating the realm of God" - meaning her power can undo what God has designated to occur on the ground level - and you have members of the 4th Division stating how her healing abilities are even greater than those of the 4th Division Vice-Captain despite only having her powers for a month at the most; her physical beauty is brought up on numerous occasions by various male characters, and children in her Middle School were jealous of her hair; her hairpins qualify as magic jewellery; her clumsiness is made a cute character trait and not a flaw; she has a Dark and Troubled Past involving a tragic family life; she redeems Ulquiorra through her overwhelming goodness; she is the one character in the series named after a deity (the weaver Orihime from Tanabata) or any character from Japanese folklore, and she is a Friend to All Living Things, no matter who the individual in question is.
    • Possession Sue: Fan theories surrounding the character also paint the character in this light. The more common ones link her directly to the Soul King, either as her daughter (per Tanabata, with the Soul King as the Jade Emperor) or creation as an explanation for her powers (going under the "Story Elements" aspect of Common Mary Sue Traits), despite the fact it would clash with what we already know of Inoue's backstory.


Brought here to question the entry's validity:

I've seen people discuss the limits of her power - like or dislike the character, people usually argue whether Aizen's comments are important or ignorable to the Reality Warper trope, not the Mary Sue trope.

I've only seen her SS arc power level mentioned in discussions on how powerful the True Companions were back then, since all the group were at, or above, lieutenant-level (after all having had the same training time). Like or dislike the character, people usually debate whether she was equal to her True Companions or much weaker. Again, not a Mary Sue debate.

The Middle School example is misrepresented; she was bullied for her unusual hair colour, same as Ichigo. Clumsiness and Dark and Troubled Past are barely relevant in the manga, and barely relevant to like/dislike debates that I'm aware of. Her beauty has been mentioned a couple of times, rarely as the point of a scene, except for one occasion where it was Played for Laughs. The debates I've seen have been about whether it's Informed Attractiveness, not Mary Sue.

I've never seen the meaning of her name singled out for debates, except in the Reality Warper debates, especially given that she's not the only character with a special name, and she's definitely not the only character with a name that comes from, or is inspired by, folklore, religion or historical heroes/villains.

Since this entry looks like it's twisting fandom discussions, and the opening sentence alone makes it look like a single troper's personal opinion (as does using the Friend to All Living Things trope, which doesn't apply to any Bleach character), I've brought the example here to see if it's a valid entry.

If it is a valid entry, I would suggest a rewrite on accuracy grounds.
saiyan5ninetail
03:59:05 PM Dec 26th 2014
I made the edit based on looking at the list of Common Mary Sue Traits, and the character fits a number of the traits described - it's all t traits described put together into one character that brings it up for debate. As for the meaning of her name, she is literally the only character in the entire manga (outside of Yhwach's adaptaion of YHWH) that I can think who is named after a Japanese deity/folklore character in Bleach. I've been around my fair share of forums and seen a number of people using her name as a reason for her being "special" all the way up to being a child of the Soul King.

As for the Friend To All Living Things trope, I would remind you that she healed both Menoly and Loly after they had previously physically abused her, but I guess I assumed Friend To All Living Things also included people, not just animals and wildlife.

As I mentioned, she can be debated as not being one, as you have just done.

SeptimusHeap
01:58:27 AM Dec 27th 2014
Also, the usage of a subbullet is wrong. Tropes are never subbullets to other tropes.
Wyldchyld
09:56:59 AM Dec 27th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
I could take the Mary Sue list and apply it to a lot of characters in Bleach. Without context to the traits, it's so easy to do in Kubo's work - off the top of my head, look at Ichigo, Byakuya, Kenpachi and Rukia. I could sit down and think of plenty of others.

I am not saying it's wrong for people out there to believe Orihime is their idea of a Mary Sue. It's a personal interpretation, which is what YMMV is about. What I'm saying is that the way your example is written, it's using such inaccurate, misleading, and at times completely wrong, information (your fixation on her name is one such example) that it looks like a personal agenda rather than a genuine entry.

Aside: you might want to take a look at the Friend to All Living Things trope if you think the Menoly/Loly incident is described by it - there isn't a single active character in Bleach that trope applies to (although there is one, single ambiguous hint that it might have applied to a deceased back story character about whom little is known).
saiyan5ninetail
09:28:26 PM Dec 27th 2014
I suppose that is all true, as I was speaking from personal experience, as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

Do you have any advice on how the entry would be better constructed without any bias in the description?
Wyldchyld
12:04:31 PM Dec 28th 2014
edited by 78.148.51.161
as a lot of people I've seen in the fandom have used her name as a reason to claim as a reason for her having powers "violating the realm of God" or making her a child of the Soul King (which I suspect will only pick up more fuel given the revelation regarding Yhwach).

It's very common for the fandom to discuss Aizen's comments about her powers violating the realm of God because the story raised that point and never explained it further so everyone has ideas on what it might mean. You don't seem to be using the actual story to produce your Mary Sue argument, you're saying that you think Orihime is a Mary Sue because of fan WMG. That's like using the contents of the WMG page to create the work's tropes instead of the work itself.

How do you interpret the story? That's where your YMMV examples should come from.
saiyan5ninetail
12:23:06 PM Dec 28th 2014
In a way, it depends on whether or not it is actually gone through with or not. After all, Inoue started off as a Human with no spiritual powers to speak of, but somehow she is the one who awakens powers that "violate the realm of God" when Sado only develops Fullbring - despite going through similar circumstances that led to him gaining spiritual power - and Tatsuki only develops spiritual awareness and no abilities?

Even Ichigo, who is a Transcendent, owes his unique nature and power to the circumstances under which his parents met; on the other hand, Inoue was just a normal Human with no spiritual power to speak of at the beginning of the series, yet she is the one out of all the Human characters affected by the Hogyoku to somehow develop reality-warping capabilities?
Wyldchyld
04:58:49 PM Jan 4th 2015
It sounds like you're complaining about plot points that simply haven't been revealed/completed by the author yet, or that the author isn't focused on your favourite character. Tatsuki is off-topic, she's a fringe character.
Wyldchyld
Topic
07:32:51 AM Aug 9th 2014
edited by 2.101.111.125
I've removed the Germans Love David Hasselhoff example to here:
  • Americans for the series, one of Shonen Jump's "Big Three" in the states for over a decade now and still selling fairly well. In Japan while this was always less so, Bleach has faded hard in recent years. Perhaps most notably loosing its anime entirely which was replaced with a Naruto spin-off.


The fans seem to like comparing current sales to its temporary peak (a period of unusually high sales). The Japanese industry publish a "Top 50" manga list of the best selling manga in the industry. These are considered very successful manga. Bleach has never dropped outside that list and has never been outside the top half of it (the top 25). In Japan, it's never been either "Big Three" or unsuccessful - selling "fairly well" (to quote the example) is exactly what it does.
Wyldchyld
Topic
08:10:13 AM Jul 29th 2014
Moved this item to here:

  • Author's Saving Throw: All over the place, but the most notable one is Isshin declaring he's going to teach Ichigo the "Final Getsuga" so he can defeat Aizen, who by this time is pretty much a deity. It involves Ichigo merging with his Zanpakuto so he can become a human-sized Getsuga Tensho.


Author's Saving Throw is when an author writes something that turns things on their head and shakes-up the status quo, the fans revolt about the changes and the author is forced to rewrite things to salvage the situation.

How does the example above fit the actual intention? It seems more like an example for a different trope entirely.
SeptimusHeap
08:12:52 AM Jul 29th 2014
I think it's taking the trope title literally, i.e "saving power upgrade". I don't know these tropes well enough to find a replacement, though.
Collapse/Expand Topics
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=YMMV.Bleach