What An Idiot Web Original Discussion

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Wyldchyld
Topic
05:38:26 PM Jan 6th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
RWBY entries to query:

  • In the second episode of Season 3, New chalengers, team JNPR fight team BRNZ, and gains advantage, comimng close to winning. Jaune tries to call out Attack Pattern Alpha but his teammates don't understand his command leading to confused disscusion about what they're actually supposed to do.
    You'd Expect: BRNZ would use JNPR's confusion to attack when they're of guard possibly turning the tide.
    Instead: They shout at JNPR reminding them that middle of a fight is not a good place for lengthy conversations. When reminded that battle still goes on Jaune calls out simple command for Nora to finish of BRNZ.
  • In the sixth episode of Season 3, Fall, Yang has beaten Mercury and walks away, declaring "Better luck next time." As she walks away, Mercury stands up and growls "There won't be a next time, blondie" and jump kicks her.
    You'd Expect: Yang still has a little bit of Aura left - tank the kick. Or sidestep it. Or duck. Or anything other than...
    Instead: Yang uses her Shotgun Gauntlets to punch his leg, breaking it. Except his legs aren't real, they're robotic - Yang just walked into a trap and fell for it hook, like and sinker.

In the case of the first one, I don't see how the standing around is relevant to the outcome. Nora had already achieved her power up before this point. When Jaune unleashed her, it was clear BRNZ couldn't do a thing about her. This entry rests on the assumption the outcome would have been different had BRNZ attacked. Whether or not it was stupid for BRNZ to just stand around in disbelief, we have no idea if they could ever have handled Nora no matter what they did.

The second one seems to be making out that Yang is an idiot for falling for a trap that absolutely no-one can see through. Yeah, okay, she's a thrill-seeker and lashes out when she's angry, and that's not the ideal behaviour for a person to have. However, this scenario was at the end of a one-on-one fight where other team-mates should not have been interfering with the fight and didn't appear to be present. How can anyone - least of all Yang - predict that she would be subjected to illusions or mind-control, after a fight had ended, to ruin her reputation?

Larkmarn
06:24:47 AM Jan 7th 2016
For the first one, the question here is "do they know they've already effectively lost?" Even if it wouldn't have affected the outcome, it can still be dumb. In this case, they at least seem like they think they should've been able to accomplish something, but didn't even try.

And as for the second... definite shoehorning. Honestly, punching the guy who is attacking you seems like the most reasonable recourse (especially over the suggestion of "get kicked"). She has no reason to believe punching wouldn't work.
Karxrida
08:32:47 AM Jan 7th 2016
edited by Karxrida
The literally stood there like idiots and didn't even try to win while JNPR was arguing. They could have taken advantage of the situation and won.

Second is a shoehorn.
Wyldchyld
03:27:04 PM Jan 7th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Well, BRNZ were definitely losing at the point JNPR started arguing. I agree BRNZ should have tried to take advantage of the situation, to see if they could get back in the fight, so they are pretty daft for just standing around gawping. I don't agree that the example should rest on the idea that they'd have won if they'd tried to take advantage. We just don't know what the outcome would have been, we only know they didn't try.

I don't mind that example going back on the page with a rewrite to focus on the problem being them not even trying.
Wyldchyld
10:03:57 AM Jan 8th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Okay, is this all right for the first example?

  • In New Challengers, Team JNPR fights Team BRNZ, gains the advantage and almost wins. Jaune attempts to close the match by calling out his team's attack strategy names, but instead confuses his own team mates, who don't know what he means.
    You'd Expect: Team BRNZ to take advantage of Team JNPR's confusion, to try and get back into the fight.
    Instead: Shocked by Team JNPR's behaviour, Team Brnz chastise them for forgetting they're in the middle of a fight. Jaune then takes out his frustration on Team Brnz by ordering Nora to finish the fight.
Larkmarn
11:11:13 AM Jan 8th 2016
Works for me.
Wyldchyld
02:37:47 PM Jan 11th 2016
I gave it a few days in case anyone else wanted to chime in. I've added the New Challengers example back to the page.
NNinja
10:11:02 AM Jan 17th 2016
I was the one who added the first example and here's why: BRNZ were getting their asses handed to them, and JNPR's misunderstanding was a gift of heavens to them, as it gave them a chance at free shot which could turn the tides if used correctly. It might or might not have worked, but my point is it COULD have worked. Some chance is far better than no chance, and by shouting at JNPR to go back to fight they blew it completely. I don't mind the changed version, and glad it's back.

About the second example I deliberately avoided adding it, because while Yang could have reasonably foreseen the trap, it required huge foresight, and it was definitely NOT unreasonable that she didn't and i agree on deleting the example.
Wyldchyld
Topic
01:48:17 PM Oct 10th 2014
edited by 2.101.102.181
One person decided everything they disliked about this episode was this trope. Given the debate in the forum about whether this trope genuinely applies, given the different interpretations of the characters and their abilities, I've moved it all here until a consensus is reached on what, if anything, should stay.

RWBY:
  • Volume 2 Episode 10, Mountain Glenn has multiple moments, most of them from Ruby:
    • When she was separated from the team because of Zwei, she spots two White Fang soldiers on patrol.
      You'd expect: For Ruby to return and report this to her team: God knows how many more of White Fang soldiers are out there.
      Instead: She follows the soldiers all by herself and Zwei the puppy, leaving her sleeping teammates (they were awake, but she didn't know that) by themselves, putting both herself and the teammates in potential danger.
    • And when she was about to leave the scene, she clearly sees the ground collapsing below her.
      You'd exect: For Ruby to get out of there; she has been displaying super speed without her Semblance nor Crescent Rose just fine.
      Instead: She just stands there until she falls. \\
    • And when she falls down, she confronts two White Fang soldiers. She throws a punch, which seems to have no effect on them, and now they are angry.
      You'd expect: For Ruby to, now that she realized her strength wouldn't work, use her speed to get the hell out of there.
      Instead: She stands there and just let one of the soldiers beat her down to unconsciousness. Granted, she was in enemy base so she wouldn't have gotten far anyway, but she didn't know that at the moment, and could have at least tried. \\
    • Now, something from Profess-uh, Dr. Oobleck, the guidance Hunter of Team RWBY. So, Doctor, one of your student is gone missing and judging by the way she left her weapon, she is not in good condition at all.
      You'd expect: Dr. Oobleck to explain only the core, necessary information about the place they are about to enter and quickly go for Ruby.
      Intead: He rambles on about history, that is while important and interesting depending on who you ask, have no immediate relevance to the emergency at hand. \\
NNinja
11:12:22 AM Dec 11th 2015
edited by NNinja
4 seems valid, Oobleck DID chose the worst possible time for historical Info Dump. About others i agree that tey're not really examples of stupidity. bulleted for clear reading.
  • Investigating white fang was the reasin why they were there in the first place, so tailing them was a good idea as not doing so would waste a chance to find their hideout. she didn't engage them alone, she stealthily followed them, and when she found their hideout(without being caught mind you) she did call her team, but she didn't have a reception(something she couldn't have known in advance, as she didn't use phone while in Mountain Glenn), and when she couldn't she tried to go back. Falling in the hole was pure bad luck.
  • The Hole caught her by suprise and threw off balance, by the time she understood what's going on it was too late. The fact that hes super speed IS her semblance is not even worth mentioning.
  • Ruby's Speed seems to be working only in straight lines and she was by the edge from one side and surrounded by white fang from the other, she had no way of escaping and even if she did the whole event lasted 2 seconds flat before she was grabbed
Speaking of RWBY there are two other examples that i found questionable, and i'll ad them here for discussion if you don't mind
  • The Black trailer gives us an antiheroic example: Blake and Adam are attacking a supply train, but Blake falters when the plan requires them to kill innocent crewmen.
    You'd Think: Adam would remind Blake that sacrifices have to be made in war, and that their cause is ultimately righteous, even if it requires them to do unsavory things. Or something.
    Instead: He dismisses her opinion entirely. This validates Blake's doubts, and causes her to sabotage the mission and defect.
This one seemed more like a case of Evil Cannot Comprehend Good to me rather that sheer stupidity, Adam simply didn't understand the question. For him killing crew members meant absolutly nothing and didn't know that Blake doesn't fell about it the way he did. The fact that he didn't even understand that she cared whether they lived or not was what convinced her that he's [[{Understatement} misguided]]
  • In the 12th episode of Season 1, Jaunedice, Part 2, Pyrrha decides to try to cheer up Jaune and offer to help train him in how to fight.
    You'd Expect: Phyrra to talk with Jaune in their dorm room. Simple as that.
    Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, not knowing that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves. Nice move, Phyrra.
    You'd Then Expect: Jaunne to talk with Ozpin that Cardin is bullying him, which Ozpin would believe since Cardin and his team are the school bullies.
    Instead: He never thinks of doing this and goes along with it. It isn't until Cardin tells him to throw sap at Phyrra to make her a victim to Rapier Wasps does Jaunne stand up against him.
About Pyrrha discusing this on the rooftop she chose this place as they wouldn't disturb anyone nor be disturbed by anyone, she had no way of knowing Cardin would be listening, and even if she did, what about it? She wasn't going to discuss any sensitive issues, she was just going to help him training, she couldn't have known about fake transcripts, let alone that it would come out during disscussion. About Jaune not going to Ozpin at this point he was blackmailed with something that could easily get him thrown out of Beacon, so it was perfectly reasonable that he didn't want Ozpin involved.
TropeLicious
12:28:38 PM Dec 12th 2015
But even so, the "Pyrrha offering to train Jaune" bit could've been done in the dorm room, even if you didn't know Cardin would be listening. They could've just asked Ren and Nora to go out for a bit, you know?

Also, couldn't Jaune have done something other than being Cardin's lackey when he was blackmailed?
NNinja
01:07:55 PM Dec 26th 2015
Yes, Pyrrha could've offered the training in the dorm. But answer me: What the hell for? The rooftop is better place to training, if just because they wouldn't disturb Nora and Ren. Unless Pyrrha has precognition abilities, that would've told her that something sensitive will come up and Cardin would be listening she had no reason not to go on that roof.

About Jaune keep in mind that Cardin could easily get Jaune out of beacon if he wanted, and that left Jaune with very little room to do something about it. If you have easy solution to this i'm all ears.

TropeLicious
08:37:53 PM Dec 27th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
In the first part, I might put it like something like this:

You'd Think (not you'd expect): Phyrra would have the talk about the offer to train Jaune in their dorm room. They could wait to go to the roof for after the conversation if he says "yes", which he doesn't right away (even if they didn't know that Cardin was eavesdropping).

or alternatively... You'd Think: Phyrra would do do anything other than what she does.

Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, but little do they know that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves.

I think Jaune should've just stood up to him right away, even if he's weaker. Man up, you know?

I still think the roof bit was still a What an Idiot moment, either way.
NNinja
02:27:59 AM Dec 28th 2015
You either miss the point or avoid my issue with the roof. I'm not questioning whether or not it was possible for her to discuss the issue without ever goint to that roof. It was, she could discuss it anywhere else in the academy, and if she did it would've spared Jaune a lot of trouble with Cardin, that was never up to debate. My issue is: what possible reason she had not to go? The roof was problematic because Jaune mentioned the forgery and Cardin was listening, both of which were things Pyrrha couldn't have known in advance. You try to make this reatroactive What an Idiot moment because of something that came up after Phyrra chose the spot, basically making Pyrrha dumb because her semblance is Polarity rather than Precognition. You admitted yourself that she didn't know that Cardin was listening, so don't know why do you think she was dumb for chosing the roof.

And if Jaune would've stood up to Cardin right after Cardin learned about the forgery the result would be probably that Cardin goes to Glynda, Jaune gets kicked out and I would be the one saying:" "What an Idiot!". Like i said if you have simple solution that doesn't involve Cardin getting Jaune kicked out i'm all ears. I certainly don't see anything any reasonable person would immediately come up with.
TropeLicious
08:29:17 AM Dec 28th 2015
But even so, the point is, even if Phyra didn't know, they could've talked in the dorm room, simple as that. That's also why I would put it as "You'd Think" and not "You'd Expect". Have you heard of the trope "Could Have Avoided This Plot"? If they had the talk in the dorm room, instead of the roof, they could have avoided Cardin overhearing everything.
Larkmarn
08:54:00 AM Dec 28th 2015
Could Have Avoided This Plot isn't the same as someone being an idiot, though.

Given hindsight, it would've clearly have been better to have done it elsewhere, but they didn't really have any reason to. The entry itself specifically says "little did they know," which is already saying that we're operating on information they don't have. Given the information they have, there's no reason to think the roof is anything but a good spot.
TropeLicious
09:30:53 AM Dec 28th 2015
Even in hindsight, because of this, it still technically counts as a what an idiot moment. They could've had the talk anywhere, including the dorm room. I'll put it as "not knowing", as seen below.

Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, not knowing that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves.

There are some moments where Could Have Avoided This Plot happens because of stupid decisions. I even put it under Just Eat Gilligan.
Larkmarn
10:03:22 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by Larkmarn
... then this isn't an idiotic decision. There is nothing dumb about the decision given the knowledge the characters have. There's just an unfortunate coincidence that made it end poorly.

That is not What an Idiot.
TropeLicious
10:06:14 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
But even if they didn't the knowledge, and even if it was a bad coincidence, it still was pretty dumb, so it technically counts. I even put it under Just Eat Gilligan.
Larkmarn
10:14:49 AM Dec 28th 2015
That... uh... doesn't make the entry accurate. Kinda just says more about you jumping the gun...
NNinja
11:41:40 AM Dec 28th 2015
(sigh...) Why do you keep trying to push this square trope through clearly round peg? The only way when something can be retroactively made What an Idiot moment is when we learn later about option that wasn't shown earlier, but was clearly present at the time. This isn't trope for any instance where different course of action would avoid creating a problem, this is for situation where it's obvious that action taken by character will lead to disaster. Just because you put it under Idiot Premise doesn't make it right, neither there nor here. Decision can be considered smart or dumb only based on consequences that could've been reasonably foreseen. Pyrra could've known that Jaune forged this transcript, that transcript will come up during this conversation on completely different topic, mind you, or that Cardin would listen. If Jaune got to beacon legally would Pyrra's decision to talk on the rooftop be dumb? Of course not. She was going to offer him help with training, she chose the spot where no one comes so they won't bother anyone or be bothered by anyone, and chose to show it to him while discussing the topic. Imagine yourself trying to convince Pyrrha to throw Ren and Nora out of dorm and discuss it there instead of going to the rooftop, and give ONE argument chosing room over rooftop with training discussion without mentioning Cardin or transcripts. If you can come with one valid logical argument i'll concede.
TropeLicious
11:54:32 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
One argument could be this: That the dorm room would still be a more private place to offer the training before going to the roof to train.
Larkmarn
11:59:24 AM Dec 28th 2015
... you mean the dorm room where there were actually people there? And is a living quarters thus it's expected for people to come and go? Or the fact that Pyrrha had no reason to look for that level of privacy other than not bothering her friends?

Also, you spell Pyrrha's name differently in every single post.
TropeLicious
12:02:09 PM Dec 28th 2015
As I also said, she could've politely asked Nora and Ren to leave the room for a little bit.
Larkmarn
12:07:55 PM Dec 28th 2015
You still haven't answered why. Pyrrha has no reason to do that. It's just inconveniencing them for, from her perspective, no reason.

From her perspective, going to the roof solves more problems than it creates.
TropeLicious
12:10:50 PM Dec 28th 2015
The "why" is so that they wouldn't disturb Pyrrha while talking with Jaune.
NNinja
12:15:55 PM Dec 28th 2015
you might've not noticed but they didn't discuss anything intimate, they weren't making out, they were going to discuss training, they didn't need any more privacy to talk about training, than to actually train, and that kind of privacy was already offered by the rooftop, so i can't agree with it. Keep in mind, throwing Nora and Ren out of the room wouldn't be MUCH of a problem, but still it's and effort, and inconvienience for the two. Why would she make problems for her teammates for issue that for all she knew had no reason to be discussed in absolute privacy?
tryrar
12:18:49 PM Dec 28th 2015
Dude, you're not getting it. Talking on the roof is a reasonable action to take since there's a good expectation of privacy. Just because they happened to be over the dorm of the absolute LAST person they'd want to overhear(and he had the window open) doesn't make it a what and idiot moment, that's just bad luck.
TropeLicious
12:21:32 PM Dec 28th 2015
Can you give me some way to note the example as a What an Idiot moment? Because I still believe there had to have been alternatives than going to the rooftop, even if she didn't know about the inconveniences that end up happening.
tryrar
12:22:42 PM Dec 28th 2015
DUDE, THERE IS NO WAY TO NOTE IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPLY. What part of this do you not get?!
Larkmarn
12:23:05 PM Dec 28th 2015
No. Because it's shoehorning.

At most, you could say it falls under the Theory of Narrative Causality, but since that's an Omnipresent Trope, it wouldn't get listed anyway.
NNinja
12:26:14 PM Dec 28th 2015
TropeLicious
12:26:37 PM Dec 28th 2015
I was asking N Ninja. I wasn't trying to shohorn it. I just felt like it was not a smart idea, even after the fact.
tryrar
12:29:47 PM Dec 28th 2015
Doesn't matter who you ask, since all three of our opinions are the same: it doesn't apply in any way, shape or form, even retroactively.
TropeLicious
12:33:39 PM Dec 28th 2015
Even after the fact, it still was not smart of Pyrrha to go to the roof. She should've done in the discussion in the library or somewhere else or Jaunne could've told Pyrrha that there is something private about him before the conversation, hence suggesting to do it in the dorm instead.
Larkmarn
12:36:31 PM Dec 28th 2015
edited by Larkmarn
... so basically, they should've had the conversation before they had the conversation so they could've planned where to have the conversation.

Okay guys, I'm out. We've pretty conclusively decided it's a shoehorn. We're just wasting time and space furthering this discussion.

Peace out.
NNinja
12:40:23 PM Dec 28th 2015
You only think it wasn't smart to go on the roof because it ended with Cardin overhearing about the transcript. Haven't you read what i've wrote earlier? No one denies that other posiibilities were there, the problem here is that Pyrrha had no reason to look for other options, because she was going to have perfectly innocent conversation about training. Why wouldn't she discuss such issue at the very spot she was going to use for training?
SeptimusHeap
Topic
12:32:12 PM Feb 7th 2012
Is this paragraph still valid, after the Justifying Edit?
  • In Shadowhunter Peril, Valentine, a Darth Vader-like overlord, has total control over the four of the 6 main communities of Earth: Downworlders, Nephilim, Demons, and Humans (the ones not under his control being Phoenixes and Angels). With all that power under his control, Valentine is easily the strongest person on the entire planet.
    • You'd Expect: That the moment the Resistance appears, Valentine would send every available creature at his disposal to go and burn the Resistance to the ground (he is aware of their general location, after all).
    • Instead: He sits around with his thumb up his ass, locked up in his own palace, and occasionally sends a small group of demons in an attempt to kill them. He isn't even seen until the final battle except for a few scenes in which he monologues to a helpless captive.
    • However: Recently he Took a Level in Badass, as he is seen killing Alex and then manages to steal a Mortal Instrument that can turn him into an angel, which would grant him unlimited power.
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