What An Idiot Web Original Discussion

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NNinja
Topic
12:38:05 AM Jul 7th 2016
  • The entire Vytal Tournament is a competition between the students of the three kingdoms to show their potential and skill. You'd Expect: The tournament to have a strenuous set of rules to protect the integrity of the games, including pulling defeated students out of the ring, full medical check-ups and a list of Semblances to prevent outside interference or grievous injury. Instead: None of these are shown to be implemented at all and seems to run on both the honor system and the rule of "Don't be a dick." The lack of the last two is what allows Cinder's plan to work.
There WERE rules like being out of fight when aura is below 15% about these specific rules no sane person would have tried to attack already defeated opponent on purpose in front of millions of people, because that would be practically a public murder. which is why no one expected this. About checking the semblances before tournament first of all such rule would be impossible to enforce because some students don't know their own semblances, and considering that they're qualified as a teams it would be blatantly unfair to disqualify whole good team just because one member doesn't know his/her semblance. And Secondly even if they did it wouldn't have stopped Cinder anyway because even if they knew that Pyrrha's semblance is Polarity what would it change? The problem wasn't Polarity alone but the fact that Pyrrha was fighting against an android and no one knew about it. Considering that Ironwood didn't want anyone to know that Penny is an android the preperations from organisers' side wouldn't have changed anything.
MMTrigger
12:42:14 PM Jul 7th 2016
Even if Cinder's the first one to cause a huge upset, and even with the existing rules, the tournament is still a powder keg. This tournament has been going on for eight decades in context. Eight decades and there was never any incident? There was never a previous fighter that somehow interfered with a fight with something like telepathy, invisibility, or even polarity? There was never a fighter that, unlike Yang, genuinely lashed out? Emerald's really the first fighter with a power that can be used outside the ring, and actually did so?

In fact, let's look at some other things this series has established: Fighters can hallucinate in battle thanks to stress. Ironwood and even Velvet acknowledge this can happen. Grimm are attracted to negative emotions, and it doesn't take a huge event to attract them. Ozpin makes it a point to tell his students to not hesitate to go all out in battle. The other schools may or may not do this as well.

Knowing who has what Semblance would at least make sure that the officials can prevent cheating. If Ironwood knew what Pyrrha could do, he could've made up an excuse to get Penny out of the tournament.
NNinja
09:48:43 PM Jul 7th 2016
If you let teenagers with weapons and superpowers fight each other there is no way in hell you can completely prevent accidents other than not organising the tournament in the first place. You can only make rules to minimise them. The thing is rules are there to prevent accidents, NOT someone deliberately causing battles to be deadly. what happened with Yang and Pyrrha was NOT an accident. A sore loser could probably attack the winner in anger, but the winner would still have Aura so it wouldn't hurt that much. But a winner attacking already defeated opponent half a minute after battle was already over? Why would anyone expect that?

The series never established that it have happened during friendly matches in the torunament, in fact it didn't establish it happened at all, Ironwood thinks that was the case, but we know the truth that no one was hallucinating in the first place.

Like i said such rule wouldn't be possible to enforce because of people like Jaune who genuinely don't know their own semblance. What would you make them do? Get disqualified from the tournament together with whole team? And even if they did that Cinder could've just take someone else in place of Emerald and just place her on the seats, so she wouldn't have to register her semblance. Ironwood wasn't in charge of the torunament, he was in charge of security, he didn't create rules, he couldn't have suddenly decide on semblance registration just in case there is someone with Polarity who has one in million chance to face Penny.
MMTrigger
12:31:16 PM Jul 8th 2016
"Why would anyone expect that?" You're pitting teenagers against each other with live ammo, a fight-to-win attitude that's been drilled into them for about a year at minimum (maybe even more depending on age and experience), on who knows what sort of terrain (forests, volcanoes, etc.) and it's somehow impossible for someone to suddenly lash out? That someone couldn't lose a fight and then aggravate the winner without considering whether or not their opponent has calmed down yet? Or that a winner couldn't actually have a hallucination, an established phenomena is this show, and think they were under attack even after the fight ended?

Just because no prior events were established before doesn't mean nothing ever happened. Assuming that the past 39 tournaments had the same number of teams as the 40th, and there were no returning fighters, there have been 2,496 previous fighters. There's no way that nothing bad ever happened, it just wasn't as bad or as widely broadcast as in this tournament. Just because Remnant had the CCT for eight decades doesn't mean the tournament was always a huge spectacle.

And who's saying anything about disqualifying people who don't know their semblance? Establishing who can do what is a valid security and safety measure to prevent foul play or accidents. What if someone has a melt down in the ring and someone on the opposing team has telepathy? What if someone has a peanut allergy and there's a fighter that controls plants? Shouldn't security and health professionals know this stuff in advance?
NNinja
02:39:20 PM Jul 12th 2016
"Established" as in "considered as a possibility by people who have no f-ing clue what the hell happened"? If someone who's aura broke aggravetes a guy with a gun who just kicked his ass then he either attempts Suicide by Cop or is simply Too Dumb to Live. I'm pretty sure that such situations were rather rare, even less so the ones when taunted guy attacked knowing he'll be disqualified. The rules are there, it's not like they're just letting anyone do whatever they want and if these kids cannot learn some discipline they shouldn't be let into Hunter Schools in the first place.

Manually removing someone who can walk on his own from the battlefield seems rather pointless. I never said that nothing bad ever happens, Accidents Happen as Dishwasher said. The things is removing from the battlefield as you suggest is a countermeasure against something that seems extremely unlikely, and only happened this time because a certain Magnificent Bitch have planed it so.

About Semblance Registration you completely miss the point of what i'm saying about it. You claim it would be usefull in general to know what people's semblances are and i never really denied that, although i did say that it wouldn't have stopped Cinder anyway. The problem i have with such rule is: HOW THE HELL ARE YOU GOING TO ENFORCE IT??? If anyone for any reason wouldn't want to reveal his semblance all he'd have to do is claim he never discovered it so far. Considering that there are students who genuinely don't know how would you weed out those who really don't know from those who are intentionally hiding it?
MMTrigger
12:13:46 AM Jul 13th 2016
1. Explain how Team CRDL got into Beacon. Cardin alone is an unabashed bigot, without the excuse Weiss has, whose actions in Volume 1 nearly got him killed. As we saw in Volume 2, he unwittingly knocked one of his own teammates out because he was frustrated in the bout with Pyrrha, and called the loss a "lucky shot". He's certainly lacking in discipline. Cardin may be more like a typical student who doesn't have the experience of the regular cast. Oh sure, he's likely fought Grimm before, but he cowers from things that Yang, Blake, and Nora solo'ed in the Emerald Forest.

2. Removing someone would make sense in various scenarios. The opening bouts pit full teams in potentially dangerous environments. Even if someone is defeated, they're still vulnerable to environmental hazards, stray fire, and who knows what else, especially if their aura broke. We don't notice this because we saw whole teams get dropped by one person (Yang, Nora, Neptune, etc.). This also applies to the doubles matches, just not as much. It could even apply in the singles: if someone's aura was depleted and they don't get up right away, like Mercury, an escort would be a good idea in case the loser took some unintended damage after the final hit. For example, a fighter could get punched across the arena and get banged up on the landing. And of course, it keeps hotheadedness from turning into tragedy.

3. Establish a trade-off: If a person doesn't know or want to reveal their semblance, that's fine. However, they can only be in the stadium if they're fighting; they can't be in the stands if they don't have an established power because then the officials can't ensure the integrity of the fights. Set up designated viewing areas where students can watch the fights, with security staff present so that students are shown following the rules. If they can't prove that, the team is disqualified. Not because of semblances, but because someone didn't follow the rules.
NNinja
01:10:06 AM Jul 16th 2016
1. I've always assumed that Cardin hitting his teammate was Pyrrha's doing using her Polarity. He did take loss poorly but didn't try anything funny once he got his ass handed to him. And earlier when he fought Jaune he was rather brutal but when fight stopped he fucking stopped. He didn't try to continue, he didn't try to break the rules.

2. IF they cannot exit the arena on their own, fine. But how do you know that Mercury couldn't immediately get up? He was standing when Yang shot his leg, meaning before that he could stand.

3. "If they can't prove that, the team is disqualified." wouldn't that be the other way around? Wouldn't the officials have to prove the cheating if they wanted to disqualify someone? Aside from that if they want to check if someone's cheating rather than observing potentially cheating students(who might not have to do anything visible to use his/her semblance) wouldn't it be easier to observe the fight itself? After all if, let's say, someone with Polarity manipulates is on stands during double's round and manipulates his team's opponent's weapons it would be more visible by said weapons' behaviour rather than the student's behaviour. Either way your solution seems way to complicated to qualify as "common sense" and definitely not something immediately obvious.
MMTrigger
06:30:31 PM Jul 16th 2016
edited by MMTrigger
1. That's possible, but the problem with that is Pyrrha's skill with her polarity is in defensive maneuvers. All the confirmed times she's gone Magneto on someone involved huge displays of power because she hides her powers and doesn't do precision attacks. If she misjudges the force needed, Cardin's weapon flies out of his hand and her cover's blown. Speaking of Cardin, didn't he pass out right after Pyrrha's final attack? Even if he didn't, he was in no shape to keep fighting. Also, Glynda was right there to stop him, just like when he first fought Jaune. The second time, he was attacked by the Ursa that Jaune seemingly killed on his own. Cardin stopped, but was it because he was now following the rules, or he didn't believe he could break them anymore? People do bad things partly because they believe they can get away with it.

2. Okay, that one's on me. I don't re-watch episodes that often so I remembered that fight as Yang attacking a seemingly "weakened and helpless" Mercury and not a "weakened but can still try to get away" Mercury.

3. Based on what the show's given us, a person doesn't have to do anything obvious to use their powers, but they still need line of sight to their target. Emerald can use her powers at range, but she still needed to directly see Yang and Pyrrha, otherwise there's no reason for her to be in the stadium for the finals at all.

By registering Semblances, ringside authorities would have a list of powers to consult if something strange happened in a fight, and the students would be informed about this list when they register. If something happened that matched up with the list data, the student(s) in question would be the prime suspect(s). That's incentive right there for students to not cheat from the stands. However, if something happened that didn't match the list, the next step would be to investigate anyone with an unknown semblance. If such people are confirmed to have been in a designated viewing area (such Beacon's dining hall) and not in the stadium, the authorities have confirmed those students weren't physically able to interfere. Otherwise, unless those students have an alibi that places them outside the stadium, the team gets kicked out for violating regulations that they agreed to follow.

Even if semblance registration didn't seem obvious, it didn't need to be, it should already be there. Remember, this tournament has been going on for eight decades. Real world sports events, that use adult athletes, have scandals including drugs, assaults, and terrorism. Those events have updated their security over time. But nothing, not even something bad, happened in a tournament that pits teenagers against each other in exotic martial arts/gun fights during those roughly 80 years that convinced people to update tournament procedures?
NNinja
02:42:10 PM Jul 17th 2016
1. I wasn't talking about Jaune saving Cardin from becoming Ursa food. I'm talking about earlier, at the begginning fo Jaunedice when Cardin had official training fight with Jaune and kicked his ass to the moon and back. Carding was pretty brutal during that fight but the moment Glynda stopped the match because Jaune's aura was in red zone, Cardin stoped, even if he was just about to crush Jaune's head. If Cardin-level dickhead can immediately stop fighting when ordered to i doubt there are much people who don't.

3. The problem i have with semblance registration aren't students that register their semblance but those that don't. The system you propose is far from perfect, and provides many opportunities for abuse, mainly because it allows students to be disqualified just for possibility of cheating. Simplest example: Team A and team B get to the double's round. Both teams have one student with unregistered semblance. Team A has pretty badass student who might be problematic in finals so when they fight team C, Team B uses their unregistered student to manupulate the fight between A and C in A's favor. If Team A non-combatants watched the fight from the stand (and if their unregistered student simply didn't know his semblance they have no reason not to) then team A is immediately disqualified and Team B have one problem less to worry about.

I have no doubt that some accidents happened during these 80 years. For example initial VFTs might've ended fights when aura breaks, but someone went overboard against an opponent whose aura barely held and sent him to hospital, so they decided that fight ends when aura is below 15% so this wouldn't happen again. But even with such long time i don't really expect that there would've been example of student beating up auraless opponent out of nowhere half a minute after the fight was already over, or Magnificent Bitch manipulating the tournament using accomplice with illusion-based semblance to instigate level 9 grimm invasion. And certainly there wasn't an incident of student with polarity scrapping a Robot Girl in combat because P.E.N.N.Y. was first android who could generate aura. Like you said security was updated as a reaction to these incidents meaning they weren't there before incidents happened. And i doubt a girl breaking his opponents leg out of nowhere long after she beaten him, or destroying a Robot Girl in such way would be as shocking if they were common occurence.

The reason i pointed out complexity is completely different from what you assume. I've pointed it out because if the solution requires much thought and isn't dictated by simple common sense it's Not That Trope. "What an Idiot" isn't "I thought long and hard about this and i can assure you the solution existed", it's "How the f*** would any reasonable person do something so stupid?!?!?!" Like i said you point out these security measures against problems that seem pretty rare, your solutions require a lot of planning and designing, and most importantly qouldn't have stopped Cinder anyway. So i don't think they qualify.
Wyldchyld
Topic
05:38:26 PM Jan 6th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
RWBY entries to query:

  • In the second episode of Season 3, New chalengers, team JNPR fight team BRNZ, and gains advantage, comimng close to winning. Jaune tries to call out Attack Pattern Alpha but his teammates don't understand his command leading to confused disscusion about what they're actually supposed to do.
    You'd Expect: BRNZ would use JNPR's confusion to attack when they're of guard possibly turning the tide.
    Instead: They shout at JNPR reminding them that middle of a fight is not a good place for lengthy conversations. When reminded that battle still goes on Jaune calls out simple command for Nora to finish of BRNZ.
  • In the sixth episode of Season 3, Fall, Yang has beaten Mercury and walks away, declaring "Better luck next time." As she walks away, Mercury stands up and growls "There won't be a next time, blondie" and jump kicks her.
    You'd Expect: Yang still has a little bit of Aura left - tank the kick. Or sidestep it. Or duck. Or anything other than...
    Instead: Yang uses her Shotgun Gauntlets to punch his leg, breaking it. Except his legs aren't real, they're robotic - Yang just walked into a trap and fell for it hook, like and sinker.

In the case of the first one, I don't see how the standing around is relevant to the outcome. Nora had already achieved her power up before this point. When Jaune unleashed her, it was clear BRNZ couldn't do a thing about her. This entry rests on the assumption the outcome would have been different had BRNZ attacked. Whether or not it was stupid for BRNZ to just stand around in disbelief, we have no idea if they could ever have handled Nora no matter what they did.

The second one seems to be making out that Yang is an idiot for falling for a trap that absolutely no-one can see through. Yeah, okay, she's a thrill-seeker and lashes out when she's angry, and that's not the ideal behaviour for a person to have. However, this scenario was at the end of a one-on-one fight where other team-mates should not have been interfering with the fight and didn't appear to be present. How can anyone - least of all Yang - predict that she would be subjected to illusions or mind-control, after a fight had ended, to ruin her reputation?

Larkmarn
06:24:47 AM Jan 7th 2016
For the first one, the question here is "do they know they've already effectively lost?" Even if it wouldn't have affected the outcome, it can still be dumb. In this case, they at least seem like they think they should've been able to accomplish something, but didn't even try.

And as for the second... definite shoehorning. Honestly, punching the guy who is attacking you seems like the most reasonable recourse (especially over the suggestion of "get kicked"). She has no reason to believe punching wouldn't work.
Karxrida
08:32:47 AM Jan 7th 2016
edited by Karxrida
The literally stood there like idiots and didn't even try to win while JNPR was arguing. They could have taken advantage of the situation and won.

Second is a shoehorn.
Wyldchyld
03:27:04 PM Jan 7th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Well, BRNZ were definitely losing at the point JNPR started arguing. I agree BRNZ should have tried to take advantage of the situation, to see if they could get back in the fight, so they are pretty daft for just standing around gawping. I don't agree that the example should rest on the idea that they'd have won if they'd tried to take advantage. We just don't know what the outcome would have been, we only know they didn't try.

I don't mind that example going back on the page with a rewrite to focus on the problem being them not even trying.
Wyldchyld
10:03:57 AM Jan 8th 2016
edited by Wyldchyld
Okay, is this all right for the first example?

  • In New Challengers, Team JNPR fights Team BRNZ, gains the advantage and almost wins. Jaune attempts to close the match by calling out his team's attack strategy names, but instead confuses his own team mates, who don't know what he means.
    You'd Expect: Team BRNZ to take advantage of Team JNPR's confusion, to try and get back into the fight.
    Instead: Shocked by Team JNPR's behaviour, Team Brnz chastise them for forgetting they're in the middle of a fight. Jaune then takes out his frustration on Team Brnz by ordering Nora to finish the fight.
Larkmarn
11:11:13 AM Jan 8th 2016
Works for me.
Wyldchyld
02:37:47 PM Jan 11th 2016
I gave it a few days in case anyone else wanted to chime in. I've added the New Challengers example back to the page.
NNinja
10:11:02 AM Jan 17th 2016
I was the one who added the first example and here's why: BRNZ were getting their asses handed to them, and JNPR's misunderstanding was a gift of heavens to them, as it gave them a chance at free shot which could turn the tides if used correctly. It might or might not have worked, but my point is it COULD have worked. Some chance is far better than no chance, and by shouting at JNPR to go back to fight they blew it completely. I don't mind the changed version, and glad it's back.

About the second example I deliberately avoided adding it, because while Yang could have reasonably foreseen the trap, it required huge foresight, and it was definitely NOT unreasonable that she didn't and i agree on deleting the example.
Wyldchyld
Topic
01:48:17 PM Oct 10th 2014
edited by 2.101.102.181
One person decided everything they disliked about this episode was this trope. Given the debate in the forum about whether this trope genuinely applies, given the different interpretations of the characters and their abilities, I've moved it all here until a consensus is reached on what, if anything, should stay.

RWBY:
  • Volume 2 Episode 10, Mountain Glenn has multiple moments, most of them from Ruby:
    • When she was separated from the team because of Zwei, she spots two White Fang soldiers on patrol.
      You'd expect: For Ruby to return and report this to her team: God knows how many more of White Fang soldiers are out there.
      Instead: She follows the soldiers all by herself and Zwei the puppy, leaving her sleeping teammates (they were awake, but she didn't know that) by themselves, putting both herself and the teammates in potential danger.
    • And when she was about to leave the scene, she clearly sees the ground collapsing below her.
      You'd exect: For Ruby to get out of there; she has been displaying super speed without her Semblance nor Crescent Rose just fine.
      Instead: She just stands there until she falls. \\
    • And when she falls down, she confronts two White Fang soldiers. She throws a punch, which seems to have no effect on them, and now they are angry.
      You'd expect: For Ruby to, now that she realized her strength wouldn't work, use her speed to get the hell out of there.
      Instead: She stands there and just let one of the soldiers beat her down to unconsciousness. Granted, she was in enemy base so she wouldn't have gotten far anyway, but she didn't know that at the moment, and could have at least tried. \\
    • Now, something from Profess-uh, Dr. Oobleck, the guidance Hunter of Team RWBY. So, Doctor, one of your student is gone missing and judging by the way she left her weapon, she is not in good condition at all.
      You'd expect: Dr. Oobleck to explain only the core, necessary information about the place they are about to enter and quickly go for Ruby.
      Intead: He rambles on about history, that is while important and interesting depending on who you ask, have no immediate relevance to the emergency at hand. \\
NNinja
11:12:22 AM Dec 11th 2015
edited by NNinja
4 seems valid, Oobleck DID chose the worst possible time for historical Info Dump. About others i agree that tey're not really examples of stupidity. bulleted for clear reading.
  • Investigating white fang was the reasin why they were there in the first place, so tailing them was a good idea as not doing so would waste a chance to find their hideout. she didn't engage them alone, she stealthily followed them, and when she found their hideout(without being caught mind you) she did call her team, but she didn't have a reception(something she couldn't have known in advance, as she didn't use phone while in Mountain Glenn), and when she couldn't she tried to go back. Falling in the hole was pure bad luck.
  • The Hole caught her by suprise and threw off balance, by the time she understood what's going on it was too late. The fact that hes super speed IS her semblance is not even worth mentioning.
  • Ruby's Speed seems to be working only in straight lines and she was by the edge from one side and surrounded by white fang from the other, she had no way of escaping and even if she did the whole event lasted 2 seconds flat before she was grabbed
Speaking of RWBY there are two other examples that i found questionable, and i'll ad them here for discussion if you don't mind
  • The Black trailer gives us an antiheroic example: Blake and Adam are attacking a supply train, but Blake falters when the plan requires them to kill innocent crewmen.
    You'd Think: Adam would remind Blake that sacrifices have to be made in war, and that their cause is ultimately righteous, even if it requires them to do unsavory things. Or something.
    Instead: He dismisses her opinion entirely. This validates Blake's doubts, and causes her to sabotage the mission and defect.
This one seemed more like a case of Evil Cannot Comprehend Good to me rather that sheer stupidity, Adam simply didn't understand the question. For him killing crew members meant absolutly nothing and didn't know that Blake doesn't fell about it the way he did. The fact that he didn't even understand that she cared whether they lived or not was what convinced her that he's [[{Understatement} misguided]]
  • In the 12th episode of Season 1, Jaunedice, Part 2, Pyrrha decides to try to cheer up Jaune and offer to help train him in how to fight.
    You'd Expect: Phyrra to talk with Jaune in their dorm room. Simple as that.
    Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, not knowing that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves. Nice move, Phyrra.
    You'd Then Expect: Jaunne to talk with Ozpin that Cardin is bullying him, which Ozpin would believe since Cardin and his team are the school bullies.
    Instead: He never thinks of doing this and goes along with it. It isn't until Cardin tells him to throw sap at Phyrra to make her a victim to Rapier Wasps does Jaunne stand up against him.
About Pyrrha discusing this on the rooftop she chose this place as they wouldn't disturb anyone nor be disturbed by anyone, she had no way of knowing Cardin would be listening, and even if she did, what about it? She wasn't going to discuss any sensitive issues, she was just going to help him training, she couldn't have known about fake transcripts, let alone that it would come out during disscussion. About Jaune not going to Ozpin at this point he was blackmailed with something that could easily get him thrown out of Beacon, so it was perfectly reasonable that he didn't want Ozpin involved.
TropeLicious
12:28:38 PM Dec 12th 2015
But even so, the "Pyrrha offering to train Jaune" bit could've been done in the dorm room, even if you didn't know Cardin would be listening. They could've just asked Ren and Nora to go out for a bit, you know?

Also, couldn't Jaune have done something other than being Cardin's lackey when he was blackmailed?
NNinja
01:07:55 PM Dec 26th 2015
Yes, Pyrrha could've offered the training in the dorm. But answer me: What the hell for? The rooftop is better place to training, if just because they wouldn't disturb Nora and Ren. Unless Pyrrha has precognition abilities, that would've told her that something sensitive will come up and Cardin would be listening she had no reason not to go on that roof.

About Jaune keep in mind that Cardin could easily get Jaune out of beacon if he wanted, and that left Jaune with very little room to do something about it. If you have easy solution to this i'm all ears.

TropeLicious
08:37:53 PM Dec 27th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
In the first part, I might put it like something like this:

You'd Think (not you'd expect): Phyrra would have the talk about the offer to train Jaune in their dorm room. They could wait to go to the roof for after the conversation if he says "yes", which he doesn't right away (even if they didn't know that Cardin was eavesdropping).

or alternatively... You'd Think: Phyrra would do do anything other than what she does.

Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, but little do they know that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves.

I think Jaune should've just stood up to him right away, even if he's weaker. Man up, you know?

I still think the roof bit was still a What an Idiot moment, either way.
NNinja
02:27:59 AM Dec 28th 2015
You either miss the point or avoid my issue with the roof. I'm not questioning whether or not it was possible for her to discuss the issue without ever goint to that roof. It was, she could discuss it anywhere else in the academy, and if she did it would've spared Jaune a lot of trouble with Cardin, that was never up to debate. My issue is: what possible reason she had not to go? The roof was problematic because Jaune mentioned the forgery and Cardin was listening, both of which were things Pyrrha couldn't have known in advance. You try to make this reatroactive What an Idiot moment because of something that came up after Phyrra chose the spot, basically making Pyrrha dumb because her semblance is Polarity rather than Precognition. You admitted yourself that she didn't know that Cardin was listening, so don't know why do you think she was dumb for chosing the roof.

And if Jaune would've stood up to Cardin right after Cardin learned about the forgery the result would be probably that Cardin goes to Glynda, Jaune gets kicked out and I would be the one saying:" "What an Idiot!". Like i said if you have simple solution that doesn't involve Cardin getting Jaune kicked out i'm all ears. I certainly don't see anything any reasonable person would immediately come up with.
TropeLicious
08:29:17 AM Dec 28th 2015
But even so, the point is, even if Phyra didn't know, they could've talked in the dorm room, simple as that. That's also why I would put it as "You'd Think" and not "You'd Expect". Have you heard of the trope "Could Have Avoided This Plot"? If they had the talk in the dorm room, instead of the roof, they could have avoided Cardin overhearing everything.
Larkmarn
08:54:00 AM Dec 28th 2015
Could Have Avoided This Plot isn't the same as someone being an idiot, though.

Given hindsight, it would've clearly have been better to have done it elsewhere, but they didn't really have any reason to. The entry itself specifically says "little did they know," which is already saying that we're operating on information they don't have. Given the information they have, there's no reason to think the roof is anything but a good spot.
TropeLicious
09:30:53 AM Dec 28th 2015
Even in hindsight, because of this, it still technically counts as a what an idiot moment. They could've had the talk anywhere, including the dorm room. I'll put it as "not knowing", as seen below.

Instead: She takes him to the roof to have their talk, not knowing that it's above Cardin's room, where he overhears everything, including Jaune's Dark Secret about the fact that he snuck into Beacon, which he then uses to bribe Jaunne into doing all his homework after Phyrra leaves.

There are some moments where Could Have Avoided This Plot happens because of stupid decisions. I even put it under Just Eat Gilligan.
Larkmarn
10:03:22 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by Larkmarn
... then this isn't an idiotic decision. There is nothing dumb about the decision given the knowledge the characters have. There's just an unfortunate coincidence that made it end poorly.

That is not What an Idiot.
TropeLicious
10:06:14 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
But even if they didn't the knowledge, and even if it was a bad coincidence, it still was pretty dumb, so it technically counts. I even put it under Just Eat Gilligan.
Larkmarn
10:14:49 AM Dec 28th 2015
That... uh... doesn't make the entry accurate. Kinda just says more about you jumping the gun...
NNinja
11:41:40 AM Dec 28th 2015
(sigh...) Why do you keep trying to push this square trope through clearly round peg? The only way when something can be retroactively made What an Idiot moment is when we learn later about option that wasn't shown earlier, but was clearly present at the time. This isn't trope for any instance where different course of action would avoid creating a problem, this is for situation where it's obvious that action taken by character will lead to disaster. Just because you put it under Idiot Premise doesn't make it right, neither there nor here. Decision can be considered smart or dumb only based on consequences that could've been reasonably foreseen. Pyrra could've known that Jaune forged this transcript, that transcript will come up during this conversation on completely different topic, mind you, or that Cardin would listen. If Jaune got to beacon legally would Pyrra's decision to talk on the rooftop be dumb? Of course not. She was going to offer him help with training, she chose the spot where no one comes so they won't bother anyone or be bothered by anyone, and chose to show it to him while discussing the topic. Imagine yourself trying to convince Pyrrha to throw Ren and Nora out of dorm and discuss it there instead of going to the rooftop, and give ONE argument chosing room over rooftop with training discussion without mentioning Cardin or transcripts. If you can come with one valid logical argument i'll concede.
TropeLicious
11:54:32 AM Dec 28th 2015
edited by TropeLicious
One argument could be this: That the dorm room would still be a more private place to offer the training before going to the roof to train.
Larkmarn
11:59:24 AM Dec 28th 2015
... you mean the dorm room where there were actually people there? And is a living quarters thus it's expected for people to come and go? Or the fact that Pyrrha had no reason to look for that level of privacy other than not bothering her friends?

Also, you spell Pyrrha's name differently in every single post.
TropeLicious
12:02:09 PM Dec 28th 2015
As I also said, she could've politely asked Nora and Ren to leave the room for a little bit.
Larkmarn
12:07:55 PM Dec 28th 2015
You still haven't answered why. Pyrrha has no reason to do that. It's just inconveniencing them for, from her perspective, no reason.

From her perspective, going to the roof solves more problems than it creates.
TropeLicious
12:10:50 PM Dec 28th 2015
The "why" is so that they wouldn't disturb Pyrrha while talking with Jaune.
NNinja
12:15:55 PM Dec 28th 2015
you might've not noticed but they didn't discuss anything intimate, they weren't making out, they were going to discuss training, they didn't need any more privacy to talk about training, than to actually train, and that kind of privacy was already offered by the rooftop, so i can't agree with it. Keep in mind, throwing Nora and Ren out of the room wouldn't be MUCH of a problem, but still it's and effort, and inconvienience for the two. Why would she make problems for her teammates for issue that for all she knew had no reason to be discussed in absolute privacy?
tryrar
12:18:49 PM Dec 28th 2015
Dude, you're not getting it. Talking on the roof is a reasonable action to take since there's a good expectation of privacy. Just because they happened to be over the dorm of the absolute LAST person they'd want to overhear(and he had the window open) doesn't make it a what and idiot moment, that's just bad luck.
TropeLicious
12:21:32 PM Dec 28th 2015
Can you give me some way to note the example as a What an Idiot moment? Because I still believe there had to have been alternatives than going to the rooftop, even if she didn't know about the inconveniences that end up happening.
tryrar
12:22:42 PM Dec 28th 2015
DUDE, THERE IS NO WAY TO NOTE IT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T APPLY. What part of this do you not get?!
Larkmarn
12:23:05 PM Dec 28th 2015
No. Because it's shoehorning.

At most, you could say it falls under the Theory of Narrative Causality, but since that's an Omnipresent Trope, it wouldn't get listed anyway.
NNinja
12:26:14 PM Dec 28th 2015
TropeLicious
12:26:37 PM Dec 28th 2015
I was asking N Ninja. I wasn't trying to shohorn it. I just felt like it was not a smart idea, even after the fact.
tryrar
12:29:47 PM Dec 28th 2015
Doesn't matter who you ask, since all three of our opinions are the same: it doesn't apply in any way, shape or form, even retroactively.
TropeLicious
12:33:39 PM Dec 28th 2015
Even after the fact, it still was not smart of Pyrrha to go to the roof. She should've done in the discussion in the library or somewhere else or Jaunne could've told Pyrrha that there is something private about him before the conversation, hence suggesting to do it in the dorm instead.
Larkmarn
12:36:31 PM Dec 28th 2015
edited by Larkmarn
... so basically, they should've had the conversation before they had the conversation so they could've planned where to have the conversation.

Okay guys, I'm out. We've pretty conclusively decided it's a shoehorn. We're just wasting time and space furthering this discussion.

Peace out.
NNinja
12:40:23 PM Dec 28th 2015
You only think it wasn't smart to go on the roof because it ended with Cardin overhearing about the transcript. Haven't you read what i've wrote earlier? No one denies that other posiibilities were there, the problem here is that Pyrrha had no reason to look for other options, because she was going to have perfectly innocent conversation about training. Why wouldn't she discuss such issue at the very spot she was going to use for training?
SeptimusHeap
Topic
12:32:12 PM Feb 7th 2012
Is this paragraph still valid, after the Justifying Edit?
  • In Shadowhunter Peril, Valentine, a Darth Vader-like overlord, has total control over the four of the 6 main communities of Earth: Downworlders, Nephilim, Demons, and Humans (the ones not under his control being Phoenixes and Angels). With all that power under his control, Valentine is easily the strongest person on the entire planet.
    • You'd Expect: That the moment the Resistance appears, Valentine would send every available creature at his disposal to go and burn the Resistance to the ground (he is aware of their general location, after all).
    • Instead: He sits around with his thumb up his ass, locked up in his own palace, and occasionally sends a small group of demons in an attempt to kill them. He isn't even seen until the final battle except for a few scenes in which he monologues to a helpless captive.
    • However: Recently he Took a Level in Badass, as he is seen killing Alex and then manages to steal a Mortal Instrument that can turn him into an angel, which would grant him unlimited power.
Collapse/Expand Topics
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=WhatAnIdiot.WebOriginal