Discussion WesternAnimation / TheLegendOfKorra

The ship tease page is taken heavily from the Ho Yay page which always tends to use shipping goggles to over analyze every evidence.

So I'd be for keeping it at least on that page.

I think it's a pretty safe assumption, especially considering this repost by Mike.

Does a same sex relationship being canon mean any mention of it on the Ho/Yay page is deleted?

Under discussion in Ask The Tropers, I think.

Actually, that discussion is more about whether you use ho yay if the pair becomes an actual couple. It still relies on the assumption that the relationship is canon.

Still the overwhelming amount of agreement that it is canon in that discussion makes me think that I'll just edit under the assumption that the wiki agrees on it being canon.

Edit: Misread Septimus's comment as directed towards me. Point still stands though that wiki seems to accept Korrasami as canon for the finale.

Has there been any word from Bryke on the canon status of the pairing?

I don't intend to start an edit war, as I accept the pairing as canon, but was just curious if anyone had heard anything yet.

All I've seen are circumstantial, unfortunately. Strongest evidence is probably this:

Michael Dante Di Martino reblogged this story on his tumblr which is about how their gay child will now have a story that shows a happily ever after that they can identify with.

Just posting this; Bryke's official Tumblr pages both posted Word of Gay on this, so we can put the debate to rest.

And common sense wins another one.

Guess its time to edit all those references to it being possibly to definitely

And here I was all excited to be the person to share the news lol but yes, both of them confirmed it on their individual tumblrs:

Bryan: http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace Mike: http://michaeldantedimartino.tumblr.com/post/105916326500/korrasami-confirmed-now-that-korra-and-asamis

For source

Maybe. What is the text in question, exactly?

It's "Earth. Water. Fire. Air. Only the Avatar can master all four elements and bring balance to the world."

Personally, I don't like the current page quote (is an Action Girl heroine really that big of a deal?), but I don't really think that Tenzin's narration is necessarily better. Personally, I like one of the villains words better, as they describe rapid changes in the world that we see in the series. "Nature is constantly changing. Like the wind."

Sorry for the late reply.

The quote I was thinking of was:

I just felt like that would fit the page quote a lot better

I like it. How many people do we need to approve the change?

I'll give my support.

And my axe!

Word of God, presumably. Plus, she was shown being pretty antagonistic in the trailer.

Personally, I'm pretty sure she'll be a Red Herring. It'll be revealed she's a Well-Intentioned Extremist or something and it'll all make sense in the end.

No, because it started off as Western Animation, and besides, Web Video is not for animated videos (that is Web Animation).

Hiatus = bad, but it'd prolly be for the best if they only aired one episode a week rather than two. It just burns through the season too quickly and screws anyone who misses a week.

I don't think it counts, because by this point Korra, Bolin, Asami, Mako...pretty much all the major active characters are also adults. Young adults, yes, but still adults.

I think 15 year olds are considered adults in the Avatar world seeing as how Zuko became Firelord at that age.

How old is Mako supposed to be? I was under the impression he's over 18 for some reason.

18-19 in the main show.

No, it's her connection to them that was severed, their spirits weren't destroyed.

We don't know yet. All we know is that Korra can't contact them. It's not clear if that's the equivalent of the phone numbers getting deleted out of your phone, or of everybody on your contact list being murdered. We'll have to wait and see.

Except... don't they all have the same spirit? Which is the same as Korra's? Seems to me that breaking the connection to their spirit would logically make them Deader than Dead.

But yeah, for now it's unclear. It might be worthwhile to note on the page that it's a possibility, though.

It's always described as a "connection," implying they're still separate entities. When Korra or Aang called up the other avatars, it was always externalized—another entity having to sit down and talk to the current Avatar, with that other entity's thoughts, mannerism, and appearance being shown as separate. I'm inclined to believe that Korra is her own spirit, and the Avatar cycle lets her talk to the spirits of the previous avatars, which are still distinct entities.

Generally that does seem to be the case, but instances like Korra pointing to Wan's teapot and saying "my pot!" make it... murky. I'd expect we'll find out more details next season.

The human spirit/soul of the Avatar is the same Wan's soul is Korra's soul, their personalities are still distinct, but it doesn't make them separate entities in the sense that their souls are separate. That's why it is reincarnation, it is the same soul but with a different personality and life. The soul isn't destroyed, just the connection between the different lives. So I don't think Deaderthan Dead really fits this situation.

The [implied to be] canon game "Escape from the Spirit World" suggests that the individual spirits of previous Avatars are going about their business in the Spirit World. Presumably they did it the same way Iroh did.

Then again...if that was canon, you'd think at least one of them would have shown up to help Korra at some point. The closest we got that happening was Aang talking to Tenzin, which doesn't count because (I'm 90% sure) it was just a hallucination.

The game is canon according to the creators, but I think the previous Avatar are only in the spirit world if the present Avatar is actively connecting to them.

Raava being alive? That's not Deus ex Machina. Everything about Jinora's involvement? That definitely was.

While her connections to the spirits were made obvious from the beginning, her being able to follow the harmonic convergence straight to Republic City instantly, to free Korra from Vaatu's attack (that's the biggest one for me. I can understand her "guiding" Korra to Raava, that at least makes thematic sense), and then seemingly bring Raava back to life (yes, I know that's not really what happened, but she still came out of nowhere to bring a resolution to an otherwise hopeless plot).

Definitely qualifies as DEM.

The whole battle for all eternity is has been used before a few times. As for the appearance the twin spirits seemed to resemble an eastern charm more than anything for me.

Yeah, the battle thing is kind of a classic. And the colors are not exactly uncommon either.

And again, the appearance doesn't remind me of a Reaper at all. I mean, now that you mention it, I can sort of see it, but even so it's a stretch.

I think it's just a combination of them both using the same classic tropes, and then slight design similarities.

Yeah, figured the plot bit wouldn't quite work. But Vaatu's design still seems Reaper-like (almost like an upside down Reaper, to be honest). If it weren't for the sound of the beam blaring like a Reaper Horn, this troper wouldn't have thought twice about it. Though a friend has pointed out the similarity, without her prompting. Guess it's more YMMV than anything unless someone were to ask Bryke directly.

You tropers never played any of the Shin Megami Tensei games, right? Google "Shikigami" ... some eastern spirits are portrayed as flying/floating paper charms.

Vaatu and Raava are this, all over. The only Reaper-like aspect of the Dark Spirit is his beam SFX because ... Rule of Cool, right? And we all know that the Reaper beam SFX was awesome. 8)

"On the other hand, from a Watsonian perspective, one might suggest that white people must exist in-universe, as Ginger is "pretending" to be one "

That's not how I saw it; it looks like something like You Gotta Have Blue Hair in-universe. If everyone around you has black or brown hair, then surely red would be just a really outlandish, but unique and eye-catching hair colour. Bit like Rihanna dying her hair fire-truck red; of course such a hair colour is unnatural, but it looks cool.

Also, like you said about skintone, she isn't actually much paler than Varrick, and certainly darker than Zhu Li.

Varrick is using her to market hair dye, so it certainly isn't natural. But yeah, nothing really there to indicate she's white or imitating red haired people any more than someone in our world dyeing their hair blue.

Didn't the other Bumi have red hair when he was young? Or was that just a result of the lighting in that flashback scene?

Probably the lighting. I'm looking for official art of young Bumi. I'm finding a semi-legit looking card that shows him with lightish brown hair (fourth thing if you GIS young Bumi) but I can't get a good look at it for some reason.

Why isn't Varrick against Unalaq an Evil Versus Evil situation? We already know that Varrick is not a good guy, and that he's been trying to sabotage Asami, an the fact that Varrick would continuously make the North look bad, just to garner support against Unalaq.

Because a lot of people don't accept that Varrick is an antagonist yet. He's still on the "allies" character page.

Give it time. We haven't really seen his true colors yet. So far, it's still seeming like a Black-and-Grey Morality situation. We'll see soon, I'd imagine.

So far it looks live Varrick is just in it for the money. He sabotaged Asami so that, when he saves her from bankruptcy, he owns the majority shares in her company. More money for him. With a war, he would make even more money by becoming a military weapons contractor (for both sides even, considering he's done it during the Republic City elections).

At the moment, I'm not certain if he's AGAINST Unalaq at all. See WMG, I think it's a possibility that he's actually working with Unalaq (the early stages of the war were incredibly good for Unalaq, suspiciously so, and Varrick has thus far gained more than he's lost).

So... I still say we hold off.

FULL DISCLOSURE: Haven't seen yesterday's episode yet. I'll chime in when I do see it.

EDIT: ... well, looks like that full disclosure was unnecessary. I stand by my statements.

Looks like you're right on multiple counts.

Bumi is still feeling inferior (and like he needs to show he's just as good as any bender) and like a disappointment for not having been born an airbender. He still needs comfort over it from Kya.

Aang's disappointment over that must have been harshest on the firstborn. And from his own series, we know he wasn't great at Reading emotions or responding to ones he didn't like or understand. (his reactions to knowing he could exploit Zhao, vs his refusal to take "I'm confused" as an answer from Katara spring to mind first). We also know Aang was harboring deep seeded guilt for having run away, resulting in the airbenders being exterminated. So Bumi was easily the first and longest recipient of Aang's dismay. And Tenzin the recipient of his elation at finally having a shot at airbenders not becoming completely extinct upon Aang's death.

All 3 siblings admit that their recall of their childhood is biased. But bias does not account for Aang clearly leaving his two eldest behind in favor of airbender bonding with Tenzin. If a parent is favoring a child, it's difficult to argue that they're emotionally present for the non favored.

She's obviously the dominant one in their relationship, but I think you're jumping the gun. BDSM requires clearly established boundaries so that no one really gets hurt. Eska starts acting that way right when they first meet, so there's no time for boundaries to be set up. It's also not clear if Bolin is fully comfortable with this situation. I got the impression he wasn't.

Also, where was she going to discipline him? Right there in the snow? Her dad and brother are watching!

It's a Y7 show and this is probably getting under the radar stuff. While there is no sadomasochism. There is definitely signs of "B&D(Bondage & Discipline) & "D&S" (Dominance & Submission).

Eska: [To Desna.] Perhaps it would be interesting to spend time with a person who's ways are so rough and uncultured. [To Bolin.] You amuse me. I will make you mine. Bolin: You mean like a boyfriend, or like a slave...? Eska: Yes. [Grabs Boln's collar.] Win me prizes.

It'll depend on how more Eska will show her dominance over Bolin.

The ice bending stocks was the way she was disciplining Bolin in that public display of humiliation while she got on to him for the physical contact with Korra.

Father and brother show no reaction to Eska and Bolin yet.

Book 2 is ramping it up on Bolin's butt monkey status with more physical humiliation. The relationship will play on that.

...I cannot believe I am having this conversation.

My point is that at this point in time, Bolin and Eska's relationship better resembles abuse then BDSM. So far, we've got no indication that Eska really cares about what Bolin thinks about how she treats him. If this was BDSM, she would care. Because she would need to know where not to cross a line so she wouldn't accidentally hurt Bolin.

Also, discussion pages are meant to decide the layout of the page, not discuss the show. (This is my fault, I admit. I should have told you from the beginning.) You should try the forums.

The fact that such an attitude doesn't show up in the previous series, but shows up later indicates that society underwent a backwards development over 70 years with regards to attitude towards benders. If anything, the Equalists wanted to invoke this trope among the non-benders. As a result, more and more people start to follow the Equalist movement as Book 1 progressed. I mean, benders have an unfair advantage, as there are bad benders who extort innocent civilians and those who killed Hiroshi Sato's wife. All those are reasons for non-benders to start ostracizing empowered individuals. By the way, in X Men, mutants are pretty much just as common as benders are in the Avatar Universe. Empowered individuals in X Men are marginalized for the same reason benders are—they have abilities that normal people consider a threat. In X-men, there are mutants who are bad, which also gave normal people an irrational reason to ostracize even good mutants.

"If anything, the Equalists wanted to invoke this trope among the non-benders."

That is true- and the reason they did so is because prior to that most normal people had no problem with benders, and probably still don't.

" X Men, mutants are pretty much just as common as benders are in the Avatar Universe."

That may be true, but if so, that's more a matter of Marvel creating too many mutant characters/Depending on the Writer. As Rodrik noted in his edit, society in the Avatarverse revolves around bending/treats it as a totally normal trait. That isn't at all comparable to the setting in X Men.

Er...yea, no, this trope isn't even close to applying. Benders are the government. Benders are the police force. Benders are celebrity athletes. Benders are even grunt labor - previously "astounding" abilities like lightning bending are now so mundane that they're simply used for providing electricity, for just one example.

This trope is for people who, because of an extremely rare trait, are marginalized and ostracized from society for it. Benders are too well integrated into Republic City for this trope to apply. The Equalists having a dim view of them isn't based entirely on irrational hatred either - there's a very clear reason why they feel as they do. That legitimate anger is later channeled into something greater. But it's still not this trope, because the Equalists had to completely overthrow the social order to get their perspective seen at all.

Benders were the majority for a long time. Most of the Fire Nation, all of the Air Nomads before they were exterminated, and many in the Earth and Water kingdoms were all benders. Bending has become less common, but is still not a rarity, and they have even become utilitarian. After all, the power station is fueled by fire benders bending lightning into the generators, and they get paid to do so! I hardly call that ostracizing.

Yes, the Equalists wanted to oust all the benders and treat them like subclass, but benders were still a significant portion of the population. Without Amon removing bending powers and Sato's machines, the movement couldn't have even gotten started. If anything, the nonbenders were treated more as subhuman on camera, and they were pleading for equality rather than death to bending.

Now, about these points:

"the reason they did so is because prior to that most normal people had no problem with benders, and probably still don't"

"Benders are the government. Benders are the police force. Benders are celebrity athletes. "

Look, benders abused and extorted non-bending civilians, benders killed Hiroshi Sato's wife, the government wasn't intended to be an all-bender council, the incumbent bending government became corrupt over time because of Tarrlok, bending athletes got away with cheating in games, all of these are reason for normal people, to start to have a problem with benders even before the Equalist movement came in.

Look, like I said before, attitudes towards benders in the previous series differ from attitudes towards benders in this series. It is possible, (yet unfortunate), for social attitudes over time towards a group to shift from acceptance to the opposite. Throughout the 70 years that passed, attitudes towards benders may have worsened as time went on. Gommu's hideout presents a completely different setting where benders and non-benders coexist with no problem. This meant to contrast the main city, where benders and non-benders still have trouble coexisting. Just because the benders of Republic City appeared to be integrated does not mean that people were either comfortable or accepting of them.

First of all, who's to say that benders have been a majority? The bending trait may not be rare, but neither is the X-gene. Mutants in Xmen have existed on earth for a long time. Similarly in Generator Rex, rampaging EVO's are prevalent, and Nanites are in every person. However, the trope is applied to Rex, an EVO, who is still ostracized even in a world where Nanites are in everyone, even normal humans. In all three of these cases, these empowered individuals have something that is abnormal by human standards, but not rare in general. Altogether, normal humans came to hate them for existing, and all these groups, benders, mutants, EV Os, have something that normal people wouldn't have, something that can give them an unfair advantage over normal people.

Also, the Equalists couldn't have been the only anti-bending movement, or only people who hated benders. They have been defeated, but there could be others who hate benders.

You're trying to shoehorn a Square Peg Round Trope here. I'm sure there's some exclusionary trope at work here, but All of the Other Reindeer simply doesn't apply, because benders aren't ostracized.

The Equalists sure didn't like them, but they hardly count as an accurate portrayal of the will of the people. At the end of the day, people (benders and non-benders alike) willingly cheered for, elected, and supported Benders.

Try to find another trope that does fit if you like, but All of the Other Reindeer doesn't.

"Some people have a problem with Benders" is not the trope, no matter how you cut it. The trope is about the people in question being ostracized, marginalized, and all in all being excluded from things because of how they're different—none of that even remotely applies.

You cannot call Benders an All of the Other Reindeer situation if the whole of society revolves around Bending. It's like saying people driving cars is such a situation, because some people don't like drunk drivers.

Because the search will sometimes pull the images embedded in the page as the work page's thumbnail image, for whatever reason.

No. Korra relies on him as part of her team, but MOST characters with a team would've failed but for their teammates. Korra herself is way too competent for Mako to be considered a Hypercompetent Sidekick. Mako isn't hypercompetent enough for him to be one, either. Not saying he's incompetent or anything, but the trope is about a sidekick who is way more intelligent or capable than the leader. Which is not the case.

First of all, what you are saying does not make any sense. You might have some typos or something.

By the way, there were numerous times Korra made decisions that made her look dumb and obnoxious. Without a doubt, Korra is cocky and arrogant. Countless times, Mako is usually the one who has to save her. After seeing one book, it is already clear that Korra wouldn't even be alive without Mako's help.

Nah, I'm good. Not sure what you're referring to.

Anyway, long story short, Korra isn't incompetent enough, Mako isn't hypercompetent enough. Yes, he's saved her life a bunch of times but their dynamic is a fairly standard Hero/Lancer dynamic, not that of a Hypercompetent Sidekick.

I'd also point out that every hero on this show needs help from someone. The only reason Aang was able to take on Ozai one on one was because he had every single ally he'd accumulated ensuring there was nobody around to back up Ozai. Sokka, Toph, and Suki took out the entire air force, the White Lotus took out the standing army, and Zuko and Katara took out Azula.

And for that matter, Korra went up against Amon with Mako while the rest of her team dealt with the rest of the Equalists. Even if Mako wasn't with her, she still couldn't claim the efforts are hers alone when a lot of other competent people were ensuring there was nobody to come back up Amon or that the city or military burned while she was trying to subdue him.

Man, the way people write about Mako, you'd think he single-handedly defeated Amon without breaking out a sweat while Korra swooned at his feet. Whereas in the actual show, even breaking blood-bending to hit him with lightning got nothing more than a amused taunt out of Amon.

Because the trope isn't "is defeated" and is not to be used to point out character errors. Using what weapons they have, which they are experienced and trained with, and which they think they can use to win, is a reasonable and logical decision. Even if they're wrong, they're not driving the plot with bad decisions.

... wrapping your metal cables around the enemy's electrified weapons, when she should know full well what will happen. She's also a master earthbender, opting to use metalbending at that point is a terrible, terrible idea.

I'll give you the metalbenders against the mechatanks the first time around since it was the first time they came up against anything like that, but Lin was pretty stupid in "Turning the Tides."

But, I agree, it's not driving the plot so in the strictest sense, it's technically not Idiot Ball. That's not a prerequisite for Distress Ball, however, which this is definitely an example of.

It's her primary weapon, which she is trained and experienced with, and she didn't know that she'd be up against the Lieutenant (Not every Equalist uses electric weapons). What was she supposed to do, get rid of the equipment that she is best suited to use on the chance that she encounters some specific enemies, and then when that enemy arrives to take the time to take off her metal equipment?

She used what she had and was defeated in a way that made sense within the context of the show. That's what matters when it comes to defining tropes such as these; does it fit the character within the show. Lin acted exactly as Lin acts, so she wasn't handed the Distress Ball, she was just defeated. Distress Ball would be if she somehow changed herself to make it more easy to capture her.

She doesn't have to take off the metal equipment, but just attack in... any way other than how she did. Yes, it's her primary weapon, but she is a master earthbender. Throw a rock, make a wall, or even strike with your whips, do anything but try to grapple with your conductive whips. That fact that Lin chose to do pretty much the worst thing in that situation is out of character; she's smarter than that.

Basically, she went with When All You Have Is a Hammer…, disregarding the other tools in her disposal. Moreover, she used said hammer in the worst way possible.

And from a meta-perspective, the reason behind her choice wasn't because it made sense, it was because the writers needed a reason for her to need saving. They wanted to show off the airbending kids, but had to get Lin out of the way first.

If Lin had no idea that there was a chance of that happening, it wouldn't fit.

BUT

She knew The Lieutenant used electricity, she knew many equalist mooks used electricity, and that particular strategy has been used before. This may be a case of Damn You, Muscle Memory!, but she really should have learned not to attempt to grapple with the equalists in that manner.

Really Lin had to make a few very poor choices to be taken in the way she was. I vote Idiot/Distress Ball.

I still disagree, but you have pointed out that (Whether I agree with the reasoning or not) she does something, gets defeated and needs to be rescued, which is the trope.

Okay, I hate to bring this back up so much later, but it looks Idiot Ball has a completely different definition that what this discussion was based on. Maybe it got reworked, I dunno, but here is this trope's definition:

"A moment where a character's stupidity fuels an episode, or a small plot line. If multiple characters have the Idiot Ball it becomes an Idiot Plot. Temporary (or permanent) Genre Blindness is often a cause of this trope. "

Making a single mistake in a long combat where the character would reasonably make a mistake from simple exhaustion is not being an idiot to drive the plot. Otherwise, ''any single instance of a character making a mistake is an Idiot Ball."

End of story. I'm going to pull this again if someone can't provide evidence of this being a serious plot driven moment of pure, out of character stupidity.

Thing is, there's little character overlap between them. Those who appear in both series are much changed in the interim, so it makes little sense to treat them as one thing. Every work can have a character sheet; with Ben 10, people simply haven't bothered to create a separate page because there is more overlap.

Why don't we let him make a real appearance; it's possible that the VA played up his "Zuko-ness" for the first appearance.

I think it applies. Maybe YMMV.

Believe or not Dante Basco's regular voice sounds like that.

Iroh II doesn't sound like a teenager, it's just we're so used to hearing Dante Basco's voice coming from the mouthes of teenagers, that it's strange to hear it from an adult's.

They're still here, it's just that the tab doesn't show up on the main page. No idea why.

Artistic License – Physics is trivia, which means it goes on the Trivia tab. In theory, the person who removes it should have moved it there. It doesn't always happen, though.

If Artistic License – Physics is trivia, then why isn't it listed on the trivia main page as a trivia trope? Or is it just a case of this PARTICULAR item being Trivia?

I ask, because people have been going around deleting any Artistic License reference they find, even if it is a definite in-world example, like the totally ubiquitous "Black holes gain a zillion times more gravity the instant they're formed, instead of having the same gravity as the star that collapsed to form them, just in a much smaller volume"...(An example of "even though it's wrong, it makes stories interesting, so they use it anyway")

This is clearly not Trivia, as it's not "Behind the scenes" at all. Perhaps it's time for a new catagory at the top of works like "Unrealistic Reality Tropes"

"Trivia" would be things like continuity errors, not something integral to the story.

Artistic License – Indexes is not Trivia. It's a not-quite-a-trope and it was rejected in the trivia crowner anyway

The cables aren't whips. Lin actively controls their entire length. They couldn't have wrapped around the Lieutenant's sticks unless Lin wanted them to.

And that still doesn't excuse Lin using metal cables against a guy she knows for a fact uses electrified kali sticks.

When people add a contested trope to this page, that's not an invitation to re-add it before anyone's actually had a chance to talk about it.

I disagree that it's a Distress Ball as well. Lin using her most common weapon isn't actually being blindingly stupid.

1: Knows cables don't work on Lt, and in fact does more harm than good.

2: Has been using earthbending on Lt's subordinates, whom are not at risk of exploiting the metal in the cables (At least I don't remember them having shock gloves, could be wrong, but doesn't really matter).

3: Does not use earthbending when Lt shows up, instead choosing to not only use the cables, but actively enables the Lieutenant to use his electricity against her by grabbing his sticks with them.

I can't imagine any way in which it could be less of an example of Distress Ball.

Now, I finally had time to watch the scene again.

First off, let's get one thing out of the way - you're basing this trope application on the idea that any single time a character needs help, it's this because the character must be acting blindingly stupid for the villain to get the upper hand.

Second?

Watching the scene again, the Lieutenant clearly caught the cables while they were being thrown, and he wasn't her only opponent. Lin may be able to control the length, but physics still applies. You're suggesting its Distress Ball simply because the villains got the upper hand on her bending.

I'm pretty sure Distress Ball is not intended for the viewer to analyze every single situation to look for how the character that just got hurt and needed help should have known better.

It's a Distress Ball because Lin should know better.

She's a master Earthbender, she's seen her subordinates get taken down this exact same way, she's encountered him before, and she attacks in the worst possible way. You don't grapple the guy with electrified weapons. If she had used her cables as whips (or spikes), if she had thrown rocks at him, if she had done... pretty much anything else, it would have gone differently. Lin had one of the most versatile skillsets at her disposal. She did the single worst thing she could have done.

Moreover, there's a very Doylist reason for her doing it: She had to be in distress in order to justify the Airbending kids. That's part of Distress Ball; not only do they have to do something they wouldn't, but it has to be clear that the author did it in order to advance the plot (or in this case, introduce a scene that they had clearly wanted to make sure was included).

We've had this discussion before, on this page, and the general consensus was that it was Distress Ball (albeit begrudgingly).

I'm not claiming that any time a character needs help it's a Distress Ball. Dunno where you got that idea. If Lin legitimately fought the Lt and lost because he was just better, that wouldn't be an example. But that's not what happened.

Lin knows about the Lt, she knows his Weapon Of Choice, she knows that grabbing the sticks with her metal cables is a bad move.

As I said before, the cables are not whips. Lin controls them. There is no possible the Lt could have gotten them to wrap around his sticks without Lin actively wanting them to.

She was using earthbending like nobody's business on the fodder Equalists, but the second a guy it would actually be useful against shows up she switches right to using the Achilles' Heel he explicitly targets. Even with using the cables there were things she could have done that didn't end in her being electrocuted. She didn't do them though. Instead she grabs his electrosticks and the Distress Ball in one fell swoop and is electro-distressed for her efforts.

Cue Big Damn Heroes for the Airbender kids.

If Lin hadn't gone down there would have been no reason for the AB Ks to show up and save her.

Now, I am going to say this, I doubt that Lin was trying to grab his sticks. He twirled them as the cables came close, presumably actively trying to get them wrapped around them. She was probably trying to grab his arms. Or body.

Doesn't change the fact she was trying to grapple him anyway. Like Eagal said, she does have control over her whips. If she had just gone in for a whip-like strike, then she could have done that. She's not accidentally wrapping metal whips around things.

Also: Rebo, you mention that he's not the only one she's fighting. Actually, he is. The mooks get nice and chivalrous for his arrival, rather than just be cannon fodder. Honestly a shame for her, really, since she was doing quite well using the mooks as weapons against the other mooks.

Of course Lin was trying to grapple him. That's what the whips are for. And even if she's metalbending instead of just swinging them, they still have to do truck with physics, and they're not solid, rigid structures.

It's not even the first time she threw the whips at him that fight—it's the move she opens up with, and he dodges out of the way.

If you throw a punch at someone, and they deflect it, even if you have "control" of your arm, the punch is still going to be deflected. That's what happened here. She threw an attack at him, and he defended.

Okay, here's my take on it:

Lin did do something relatively stupid here, and she clearly did it because the writers needed her to be in trouble. However, the way Distress Ball is written, it's exceedingly negative and gives the impression that the character did something Too Dumb to Live and we should point and laugh at the writers for it.

It fits the spirit of the trope (characters action is contrived and sub-optimal for the situation in order to set him or her up to be rescued), but not the bile-filled trope we have written.

Tropes Are Not Bad, non? So if Distress Ball gives the impression of excessive badness then it needs to be rewritten to reflect its relative neutrality. But that don't change that Lin was playin' ball.

As to the need for the cables to obey the laws of physics, uh...no, not really. This is the part where the fact that it's fiction comes in. The writers have total control over everything that happens in the plot. They decided to have the cables wrap around the Lt's sticks even though Lin should have complete control over them. She's a master earth/metalbender. I don't think such a paltry thing as simple momentum should be beyond her power to counteract.

And because Lin's cables wrapped around the sticks, Lin got shocked, thereby putting her in Distress. And then the airbender kids came in to save her. And Ikki was riding a ball. :p

You got your doing something stupid, you got your distress, you got your being saved, you got your ball. What more do you need.

Added. Tried to keep it neutral. Let me know what you think.

I edited it, was that what you had in mind?

Pretty much, except I found it interesting that she actually heard of Mako before on the Radio, so technically, it's sorta played straight, but... xD;

Just something I found really interesting that the creators did and think it deserves mentioning under this trope, except I'm unsure how to phrase it. xP

I think The Lieutenant and Korra's "dialogue" in "The Revelation" deserves some merit for the page quote, It kind of sums up the events of Book 1.

Either that or Tenzin's intro for the first episode.

I vote for the Lieutenant and Korra's dialogue. It does a much better job of establishing Korra as a character as well as the central conflict of the show, rather than saying that this is an action series starring a female. It's also far more succinct than Tenzin's intro.

As I said just a few seconds ago when I removed the entry (and then readded it when I saw there was a discussion):

As I said the first time this popped up back when the finale aired: It aint a type 1, where the method to resolve the problem did not previously exist (ironically, that method in itself was originally a type 1).

It aint a type 2. Illogical placement and timing? Feh. When else would you expect a Spirit Guide to appear than when the guidee is at her lowest and in need of help?

It aint a type 3. It was obvious to anyone who bothered to pay attention that energybending would play a prominent role in undoing Noatak's handiwork.

Which makes it as type 4, AKA Not actually a Deus Ex Machina.

I'm not entirely convinced of this myself, but I think there's room to make a case for this being a DEM.

Energy bending was not set up in Korra, but rather a previous series. Furthermore, no indication was given that it could be used to heal, well, anything. The only use set up for energybending is taking bending away.

Aang used energybending on Yakone during the flashback. Got me on the healing part though/

Tropes Are Not Bad. Regardless of how negatively that trope page is written now, a Deus ex Machina is first and foremost a miraculous event that solves the negative consequences at the end of a story, especially if Trope Maker the ancient Greeks have anything to say about it. It does not in any way have to imply a lack of skill on the part of the writer, that's what we have Ass Pull for.

This particular example would probably fit into a type 3. They set up a Chekhov's Gun (Energy Bending), but it only shows up at the last second, and in an unexpected way (Aang can finally contact Korra directly after they established he couldn't) for an unexpected purpose (giving bending instead of sealing it).

I took it out because it is not a miraculous event. Korra is clearly invoking the Avatar state at the time, and by that point in the series, she'd clearly been growing closer and closer to her spiritual connection to Aang. The previous series established that contacting previous Avatars allows them to learn new abilities or use other ones, and this one established that the Avatar State could resist bloodbending. They were building off of something that was being foreshadowed, not dropping a magical solution out of nowhere.

That would imply Korra expected to get into contact with Aang and regain her bending, which she clearly did not given the level of her emotional distress and her line to Mako "I'm not the avatar anymore".

And again, Tropes Are Not Bad. It doesn't have to be a magical solution out of nowhere for the audience (that's Ass Pull), it has to be a miraculous solution none of the characters expect. That's why we can have a Chekovs Gun that's also a Deus ex Machina.

Just because Korra herself did not expect Aang to appear does not mean the viewer did not have a reasonable expectation for him to considering the foreshadowing the series provided. Couple that with the previous series and it's approach to the spirit world, the Avatar state, and how deceased Avatars affect living Avatars.

Tropes Are Not Bad does not change whether a trope is valid or not, and even you yourself pointed out the trope is presented negatively. It's also on the Bad Writing index, so I'd point out that Tropes Are Not Good as well.

The particular Tropes Are Not Good guideline you're thinking of is "tropes can be written badly", not "using trope (A) makes you a bad writer".

There's a reason the Bad Writing Index says "often indicative of plain bad writing" instead of "always indicative of plain bad writing".

I don't think Aang showing up is the DEM, I think that energybending being able to solve her problem is. It isn't the Avatar state that cures her, it's Aang using energybending on her.

The only use set up previously for energybending is to take bending away - we never got any indication what other uses it might have. Thus, being able to cure whatever it was Amon did to people with bloodbending did seem to come out of nowhere.

Is Korra using Energybending? Was that confirmed anywhere? Otherwise, she is using the Avatar state, which the show previously established through flashback can resist or negate bloodbending, to undo bloodbending.

Actually, even if she IS energybending, the flashback showed Aang was able to easily resist bloodbending when channeling the Avatar state. Amon's debending is bloodbending, so why can't Korra tap into Avatar powers to do that?

Not to sound pedantic, but is this even energybending? The only -confirmed- two uses we've had of energybending in -both- series have been by Avatar Aang, and in each time they had a certain look to them. Aang grips his target's forhead and chest, and uses his spirit to bend the target's spirit back into line—and in Yakone and Ozai's case, back into line = no more omnicidal bending for you. However, in both Amon/Noatak's case and in Aang restoring Korra's bending's case, all that is done is a thumb is pressed into the forehead. That's the only thing that's consistent.

Aang grips Korra's shoulder, but that looks more like a reassuring gesture rather than an actual chi/chakra heal, and Amon sometimes will grab the back of the target's throat, but even that's not 100%...could we say that Aang learned bloodbending in the interim? Occam's Razor makes sense to me here...Aang learned bloodbending after Yakone went nuts, taught it to Korra, and Korra used it to heal Lin.

Tenzin says Aang and Korra use Energy Bending. Tarrlok says Amon was Blood Bending. We will operate under what the show established until such time as it establishes something else. If you want to suggest alternate theories, use the WMG page.

Erm...somehow, I must have missed that comment. If Tenzin says it's Energybending, that's as close to Wo G we're going to get...so then my above comment can be disregarded. My bad...sorry.

It still isn't a Deus ex Machina due to the reasons I provided.

If it is energybending, then how are those reasons still valid?

Every time we've seen energybending required the Avatar state, which we already saw could ignore the effects of Bloodbending. Korra's clearly still invoking it when she gets re-bended (tee hee).

For that matter, a really good bloodbender could blow off bloodbending, as seen via Amon - which also jives, by the way, with why Katara couldn't undo it as it was already established that Amon was an insanely powerful bloodbender. So it's not like a blood-de-bending is impossible to remove.

All of these clues were dropped ahead of time. On top of that, before Aang could control the Avatar state or easily contact other spirits, he was more capable of doing so when at emotional extremes. I don't buy that Korra was suicidal, but she was definitely emotionally overwhelmed at the time when the contact was made.

To sum up, not a Deus ex Machina when its using plenty of previously established elements to get there.

Also, I'm not actually able to rewatch the episode right now to confirm Tenzin's dialog.

As a side note, did we lose the ability to set discussion pages to "watchlist"? I keep having to check these manually unless I'm missing something.

?

But your theory about the Avatar State being the same as Energy Bending is pure speculation, not something established by the show. Especially when it completely contradicts non-avatar the Lion Turtle using Energy Bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender, and the Lion Turtle establishing it was a forgotten art used before the Avatar even existed.

The Lion Turtle is a spiritual being. The whole point of the Avatar state is related to the spiritual nature of the Avatar.

Every time we've seen energy bending, it's been shown in the Avatar state, so while nobody has explicitly said so, the fact it keeps getting invoked when its being used suggests its necessary - and for that matter, in the show itself, everyone expressed surprise at the concept of anyone except the Avatar being capable of it, so even if humans could do it once, they don't seem capable of it now.

I keep bringing it up because to be a Deus ex Machina, it has to happen for no reason or without reasonable setup (i.e. a quick Chekhov's Gun vs. actual foreshadowing). In this example, we've got plenty of visible examples of the principles of bloodbending being undone in the face of the Avatar State/Energy bending, so it's not a Deus ex Machina when the plot builds off of this to end the series with the de-bending and the contacting of Aang.

Look, this is besides the point. Let's assume what you say is true: Korra had visions showing she could regain her bending through being the Avatar. Let's even assume Amon taking your bending is a form of ongoing blood bending instead of an injury caused by blood bending. Not sure how Amon keeps blood bending after he's dead, but who cares?

Why have Korra say "I'm not the Avatar anymore" then? Why have her massively depressed? Why have a scene where the greatest healer in the world says her powers are lost forever? Why not have Tenzin tell her to meditate to contact Aang again?

Once again, Tropes Are Tools. This Deus ex Machina isn't a mistake, it's an actively set up one for Rule of Drama purposes. Regardless of what anyone assumes from earlier sections, that doesn't change the fact the script is designed to make all that seem meaningless in the scenes directly preceding Aang's appearance. It's entirely made to be a seemingly unsolvable problem suddenly solved by an unexpected intervention.

Unless there's something explicit (Like her actually leaning over the edge or turning back and whispering "goodbye" to the village or something like that) it's just a theory and shouldn't be referenced on this page. Many people, even depressed people, and even depressed people in the Avatar universe, stand near large drops without contemplating suicide. Sometimes they like the view (It's good for thinking), sometimes they like the isolation, sometimes it's just a coincidence that they're right there. I'm not saying she absolutely wasn't contemplating suicide, just that there was nothing saying she was apart from "She's sad near a big drop".

When I saw the scene I thought that she was being reflective, and going off to be alone (Wasn't she on that same cliff looking out in the first episode?). It wasn't till It was suggested on this site that the idea crossed my mind. I would wait for a Word of God for this.

While I personally think it's ridiculously likely that she was contemplating suicide, I do agree that without Word of God it's just a theory.

Reeeeeeally not sure if they could possibly get a more direct away past the censors, though. That's pretty damn dark stuff right there.

Korra was trying to make Mako go back and "get on with his life". After Mako confesses he loves her, she seems torn by... something. The most plausible explanation for me over that scene with Mako made her realize her suicide would now have the complication of crushing Mako.

IMO, it was just like the Tarrlok/Noatok boat explosion: It was as explicit as could be shown in a Y7 show.

Sorry, didn't see this earlier because I almost never check discussion pages.

My understanding of the trope is that it refers to exceptions to the usual rules. Even if the exception (in this case, the Avatar) is widely acknowledged and recognized and/or has rules of its own, it's still an exception. I would say the same of energybending, simply because its rules are so different from elementbending. If it was widely practiced as just another bending art, that would be another story, but since only one or two people can do it (Aang, and we're assuming Amon), it qualifies as being outside the usual context.

As for Amon, he has been continually portrayed as not following the rules at all. At this point, if it does turn out he's been following bending rules, it would qualify as a subversion of the trope rather than not worthy of mention.

Dragon, I think at this point we're talking past one another, since we disagree fundamentally on what the trope itself means. I'm going to go post on Ask the Tropers for a new perspective, since right now we're just going back and forth.

The way I'm reading Wrong Context Magic is that it has to be a violation of Magic A Is Magic A, which is fundamentally about internal consistency. The rule of the Avatarverse is "you can only bend one element, unless you are the Avatar, and then you can bend exactly four." This is established in the opening narration in both series.

It's a borderline issue, however, since the Avatar is the exception to the rule. But since it's an exception that is set up strongly, in advance, I'd tentatively say it doesn't qualify because the exception was worked into the rule from the beginning, and thus doesn't violate consistency.

I agree. I've thought about it, and there's a disconnect between the spirit of the trope; a violation of internal consistency, as ccoa put it; and it's letter, which is what I've been trying to use up till now. The trope itself probably needs clarification.

Sorry if I caused any trouble.

No trouble, a lot of tropes are vague and hard to understand, and I've been on the wrong end more than once. I'm glad we got it straightened out.

No trouble, thank you very much for discussing it rather than edit warring. You have no idea how refreshingly rare that is! Take a Made Of Win trophy.

Thanks. This isn't my first vague trope either; I've been trying to straighten out Kid-Appeal Character off and on for a while now. But I digress.

But there is another thing about this that I'm not sure about. I don't think I'd count Amon's abilities - his true, waterbending-based ones, as an example. The way it's portrayed is that it follows all the known principles of waterbending - and maybe some unknown ones - it just takes more power and control than most benders have on their own. Other benders would be capable of it if they knew what they were doing and had their power increased like they do when the moon is full. And since he did claim to have supernatural powers outside of the context of bending, that would make his use of waterbending - abnormally powerful waterbending, but waterbending nonetheless - a subversion.

(Spoilered in case anyone hasn't seen the finale yet.)

I would count his abilities as an example since nobody has ever even thought of using waterbending to take away someone's bending. They didn't even know such a thing was possible, and still don't now exactly how he does it. There's no defense against it and nobody else can do it. In the context of "using bending to move stuff" he's moved on to "using bending to take away somebody else's bending." That's way outside what the rules say bending can do.

I tend to think of it like metalbending and bloodbending. The potential was always there, it's just that nobody knew how and they were thought impossible until Toph and Hama discovered them. There is the matter of a bender's personal power, but Hama demonstrated that there are ways to augment that.

The bottom line is that I think there's a difference between breaking rules, and following rules that nobody else knows about yet. Toph and Hama's discoveries can be explained in-context, and it feels like the same can be said for Amon's abilities - given what we know about bending being affected by the flow of chi, I can totally buy that restricting bloodflow in some form can cause damage that disrupts that flow.

At the very least, only bending-blocking would be wrong context, I think. The rest is very clearly within the bounds of normal waterbending. Even resisting bloodbending with little visible action. (Hey, if King Bumi could earthbend with just his face...)

If you notice one of Korra's flashbacks, Sokka is a member.

The current Council are all benders, they have referred to themselves as "us benders." That doesn't mean it's a law that they have to be benders, like aozoi pointed out Sokka was a member in the past, but just because it's not a rule doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway.

Not to mention that there was an Air Acolyte council member in the flashback. He definitely couldn't have been a bender.

I do think that he did, because he wouldn't be shedding a tear if he thought that they were going to live in peace even when the boat exploded. Unless he was thinking of something joyful, but he doesn't have that "I'm crying tears of joy" face on either.

Here's what I think: Amon was TRYING to get Tarrlok to go live peacefully, but the latter felt to guilty for his crimes, so when he said "Yeah, it'll be just like old times, I'm pretty sure Amon knew that he was thinking of something different at that very second.

It's speculation, so it doesn't belong on the page. Whether we think he knew it was coming or not isn't really relevant, since the text is unclear about it. Barring Word of God, it belongs on WMG.

Logically, he must be. He was a huge threat to Amon since he knew his secret. Amon would have to kill him to keep him quiet. Unlike the Avatar, who is "discredited" by Amon's followers, the Lieutenant's word would carry a lot of clout. It would be very foolish and not befitting Amon's ruthless nature to leave a loose end like that.

The only excuse I can think of is maybe he left him alive so he could kill him later, in a manner he could blame the Avatar for, thus turning him into a martyr.

No

I think it would be justified, because HE seems to think she is one. Though I think it would more under the character page than the main one.

Since this discussion was started there has been a change to the trope; Hot Amazon itself was renamed to Amazon Chaser, but the Hot Amazon link is now a redirect to Amazonian Beauty.

Korra does not fit as an Amazonian Beauty, though fit she is not bulky or of greater size than other characters, but Bolin does count as an Amazon Chaser, since of the things he lists for her positive qualities was how fit she was (Right? I think he did, but I can't recall the exact quote). Amazon Chaser should be added to his character page.

It's certainly odd as all hell, especially since the opening narration in "Skeletons in the Closet" explicitly says that they escaped, but it's not a Diabolus ex Machina since this leads to the conflict and Amon's defeat, as opposed to actually assisting him. What it does count as I'm not sure.

How did they get captured? Did they send an Airship, or the planes? The plane could shoot the air-bison down, but they couldn't capture the benders. And of the two Airships that chased Tenzin, Lin took down one, and the other took her back to the island (and presumably rescued the guys from the first ship). Tenzin had a massive lead on any airship that could follow (Even if they could go slightly faster).

They don't have to shoot down a bison. All they have to do is present enough of a threat to make Tenzin surrender. Considering his newborn child was on Oogi, he couldn't have gotten away with the kind of acrobatic dogfighting Appa always did in the original series, and Master though he may be, Tenzin couldn't stop a bunch of planes all at once, so all it would've taken was a credible, "Stop or we'll shoot!"

So they just led him back? If your explanation is to be believed, then that is plausible.

Aversions are noted if the trope is expected to happen so much that the mere absence of it is notable in and of itself—as is the case in the tropes you listed, for a kids' cartoon.

Tell me, did you really expect there to be a fight between them that's "invoked for Perverse Sexual Lust purposes more than anything else"? In a Nickelodeon cartoon? So much that the absence of it struck you as entirely out of place and noteworthy?

The trope is more than just "two girls fighting," and an Aversion, to be notable enough to list, is more than just "it doesn't happen."

I see. Given that bit of information, I accept its deletion as correct. It just felt the one provided was short on the matter. Thank you for the clarification.

It struck me as noteworthy. Anytime a cat fight is averted is noteworthy because of how prevalent the trope is as well as the general belief that any fight between two women will become a cat fight. They go hand in hand. Even I considered it in the back of my mind against better judgement. So I think it should be listed.

I think you're really, seriously overstating the prevalence of cat fights.

Cat Fight is not an Omnipresent Trope. Those are the only tropes where aversions are encouraged.

Zutara shippers are some of the most rabid shippers in fiction. Must have something to do with Zuko being a Woobie with major abandonment issues regarding his mother and Katara having abandonment issues with her father as well as being Team Mom, which I guess in their minds makes them perfect for one another. So perfect they won't let little things like Official Couple or Kataang having a son together interfere with Zutara.

At least, that's just my best stab at it.

They have that whole Yin/Yang thing going on. Plus, Zuko lost his mother, Katara acts like a mother...

...Yeah, I tried.

Hey, people ship what they ship. Doesn't always have to be a solid reason. [/zen]

That philosophy only applies to crack shipping... Wait, we're talking about Zutara here. That explanation fits perfectly. Thank you, I'll be here practically every day for the rest of my life.

-snerk-

In all seriousness, though, I don't usually bother looking for a good argument for my ships, crack or otherwise (in fact, when I do try to explain a ship, it's almost always a crack ship). Honestly, if I like two people together, I'll ship it, and screw what everyone else thinks...my philosophy is closer to "each person has their own tastes" than "my ship rules and yours sucks, go get yourself immolated". Maybe the fact that I don't feel the need to explain it to others also means I don't feel the need to explain it to myself. I just like what I like. I'm sure that's how it is for almost everyone, really, at a core level — who would bother trying to back up a shipping for which they didn't just happen to have a personal preference? Maybe those kids on the debate team...academics, y'know, but most of us aren't all...academic-y.

Aaand there goes my attempt to be concise...and not sound like I have a stick up my ass. :P

(Oh, and yes, the 72.whatever person is me...sometimes. Shared computer, y'see. That one was me though.)

To add: According to Extras, the staff originally toyed with the pairing, but most likely dismissed it long before the series started. Maybe there's a bit of leftover chemistry from the early planning stages. (I'm trying to sound completely shipping-neutral here, and so will accept that I also sound unobservant enough to not know whether or not my guesstimate has any merit.)

And apparently it isn't enough for them to ship them in their old age. Want to obsess about Zutara? Go right ahead and ship them after Aang and Zuko's wife are dead.

At first I was in favor of him counting as the Worf Effect as he was still pretty menacing up until about "The Aftermath"... then he... wasn't. He already didn't exactly have a stellar win-lose record then, but was at least portrayed as menacing. After Asami takes him down, him going down has become something of a running joke in the show.

Maybe say something along the lines about how he was initially portrayed as a genuine threat, but... stopped. I suppose Badass Decay is a better fit.

Should it be pulled from the character trope list too?

The portrayal of it as a running gag I think makes the difference. Badass Decay, perhaps with some Number Two for Brains mixed it, is the general consensus?

You're misunderstanding what 'invoked' means. it's not "Person tries to do the trope," it's "Person tries to cause trope to happen."

For example: An invoked Damsel in Distress is not somebody taking a woman captive, it's somebody putting a woman in an easily-captured situation with the plan of having somebody capture her. He's not doing the trope, he's trying to cause the trope. See the distinction?

Invoking Angst? What Angst? would be somebody causing somebody else pain with the plan of them not feeling bad afterwards. Invoking is setting up the trope, not just trying to do it.

Looking it over, what you said does make sense. Perhaps the term I was looking for is simply in-universe. This instance of the trope does not deal with audience reaction, but rather Korra's reaction as a character to a situation, and an entire episode is spent on the idea that Korra is purposely hiding her emotions.

I get what you're going for, but I don't believe it would count as in-universe, either, because it doesn't happen (As in, she never didn't angst). Aversions don't need to be listed unless the trope is so universal that it's absence is noteworthy, or its lack of inclusion had some in-story relevance. As it is, she just had a normal "I'm scared and trying not to show it or accept" reaction."

Isn't an in-universe attempt to fake Angst? What Angst? just a Stepford Smiler?

I agree that that is the closest trope there iswould be Stepford Smiler, but I don't think that would apply here.

Is there a Brave Face trope? That right there is a red link, but there has to be a trope somewhere for "person is scared, but tries to present an unconcerned appearance" .

Luckily, several tropers were right in this one. Tarrlok is indeed Yakone's son.

Don't know but we'll just have to wait and see what it's about if it ever get discussed in the series.

Do we know that the dojos targeted were the only ones that existed in the city? Would it be any different if instead of martial arts, they were learning how to shoot to gun?

The moment that one group can be labeled as "terrorist", any kind of justification for their activities becomes null.

It's less about learning martial arts or learning to shoot a gun, and more learning a specific martial art, in secret, specifically in order to instigate and perpetuate a war against people in the city. This wasn't some public, unaffiliated dojo, this was a secret basement with Amon's face all over it, where the instructors and students were all wearing masks.

It's not teaching them, "Here's how to defend yourself," it's teaching them, "Here's how we're going to bring down the government and take over."

And no, those wouldn't be the only dojos in the city, and I doubt there's any effort to remove or prevent normal people from learning martial arts—nobody in Korra's group bats an eye at Asami mentioning she knows some martial arts, for instance.

The implication of the show wasn't that secret dojos were being taken down, it was that all dojos were being taken down, provided they taught that particular art. So if you openly practiced chi-blocking, in a public setting, with no affiliation to Amon, and no intention of ever fighting a bender, you were still just as valid a target as a member of Amon's organization.

Uh, no it wasn't. The only dojo they show being attacked is very clearly an equalist training ground.

Alright, just want to understand... We basically need to see more of the team and it's inner dynamics to fully say whether we have a proper Five-Man Band, although you are saying that one thing for certain is that Mako is The Lancer to Korra. I'll have to ask a bunch of stuff to make sure I understand, if that's okay.

So, we'll just have to wait and see if Korra will lead her team (Mako, Bolin, and Asami for sure, along with Korra herself.), which may be likely, against the Equalists, but so far, while she is the Hero of the show, she's not yet the Hero of her team. Right? Once we see her team do stuff together, maybe go raid some Equalists or something, and once we see Korra take charge, then it would be fair to fully apply the Trope to her, right?

And, since Bolin is perhaps the most emotional of the team, as well as being so far the weakest (although could his strength even be compared to Asami at the moment? We did only see both of them in like, one or two fights. Both went up against the Lieutenant. Either way, Korra and Mako have proven that they are stronger, so I do see that he's the weakest when compared to the two of them. Asami has her self-defense training and she was able to defeat the Lieutenant, however, he was caught off guard and underestimated her.), so he could fit more as The Chick, only at the moment, right?

In fact, perhaps since Korra is the strongest so far, and how into fighting she is, perhaps she could count as The Hero and The Big Girl?

As for The Smart Guy... Mako's street-smarts and trickery do prove his intelligence, and from the trope page itself: "Some incarnations have The Smart Guy be less of a genius, and more of a Deadpan Snarker; a wisecracking, street-smart Trickster who has traded in strength for intelligence, and uses his guile and wits to outwit his foes. This type may well be The Lancer if roles are overlapping, or the Token Evil Teammate. "

Does that not apply to Mako? It's agreed that he is The Lancer, he might not know about the Equalist mechs and weaponry as much as Asami might, but he has also proven to use his wits and trickery, like against the Metalbending officer.

But what you're saying is, we need to see him actually formulate plans on how exactly to accomplish any goal they may need to, like raiding an Equalist base and seeking out Amon or something. His street smarts and trickery may prove he's smart, but to fully be The Smart Guy, he needs to be coming up with ALL of the plans. Is that what you're saying?

Finally, would Tenzin, Lin Beifong, Pabu and Naga not count as The Mentor, The Sixth Ranger, and the Team Pets, respectively?

Well, maybe not so sure about Beifong. We did just see her claim that she'll now go against the law, but not necessarily joining Korra's team. She may just be an independent force for that matter, but so far, we just are not sure. So she can not count as The Sixth Ranger, right?

I know the 5 man band page says it can be four, but generally if you have to drop it to 4, you shouldn't be making any other stretches. (And that clause may actually be removed as well, as the trope's currently undergoing repair.) "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart", that's the setup.

Basically yes, we need to see more of this new 4-man team's interactions. Because let's face it: the 3-man fire ferrets weren't any combo of "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart" when acting as a team. Bolin played heart in episode 5, and that's it. Korra never led the group, Mako never came up with a plan, Bolin was never the tough one, etc. There's no way we can just assume the dynamics of this new one are going to move to "Leader, dissent, brains, brawn, and heart" yet.

Bolin might be the heart on a more regular basis, but we have to see. And If Korra is Leader/Brawn and Mako is Dissent/Brains, it's not a 5 man band. Again, a single person holding 2 roles is pushing it. Any more and it's just not that trope.

And yes, Mako may have qualities of a secondary type of brains, but that doesn't mean much when you've got Asami exhibiting the more standard qualities of the archetype. The point really is that qualities don't matter, what matters is that the character has to be the brains of the team, which Mako has not been to date.

Pabu and Naga fit Team Pet. Tenzin should not be included for now, as he's only Korra's mentor instead of the team's (though that could change).

And yes, we cannot assume Lin will even be part of that current team. and even if she was, she would not be The Sixth Ranger, as they only have 4 members. Having a standard 5 will usually just reveal the 4 man team never quite fit the trope, "fixing" the 5 man band dynamic instead of breaking it.

So one more time: Five-Man Band is first and foremost a group dynamic trope. We cannot say Korra's group is a 5-man band until we've a) confirmed the makeup of the new group and b) seen their dynamic as a team working together. So Mako can be smart, but if he's not the brains of the group it's not a 5-man band. Korra may be the hero, but if she's not leading the group, it's not a 5-man band. Asami may be pretty and girly, but if she's not the heart of the group it's not a 5-man band. And Bolin may be an earth bender, but if he's not the muscle of the group it's not a 5-man band.

I second the quotes page, but it's important that memes and quotes remain separate.

I also put my vote in for a quotes page but, I'm not really sure about the fridge. I mean, how much fridge is there really? Am I just missing it?

As far as sorting the fridge entries, it's a bit of a pre-emptive organizing idea. If you look at the entries for Avatar, you'll see the list is rather long. Sorting them by episode and general and such may make navigation easier. I'm not talking about using folders, just headers really.

Alright, started the Quotes page. Needs work appearance-wise I'm sure, but at least it's there. :D

I really wouldn't touch anyone else's entries on pages like WMG other than to fix spelling/grammar or broken formatting. Otherwise, I don't think organizing stuff a bit would be unwelcome, but you should still ask first if you're not sure.

Sorting stuff is generally fine, provided you say that's what you're doing. It makes things a lot easier with regards to avoiding duplicates, finding entries, and splitting pages when they get too big. Editing someone's actual entry except for what's stated above is bad form, and deleting stuff shouldn't be done unless it's a duplicate or trolling. Other than that, go for it!

Understood. Thank you so much!

Fixed [1]◊

I don't think it's a Retcon because Korra was trained differently from every other Avatar. Every other Avatar only started training in the other elements after they'd grown up and their personality had, more or less, solidified at the age of 16. Korra started being trained at the age of 4, so she wasn't raised with just a Waterbending mindset. Her personality ended up being shaped by all three of the other elements besides Air—since that was the last one she was supposed to be trained in, she probably wasn't exposed to much of its philosophy at all until she was in her teens, and her personality had started to set.

If it's not a Retcon, then it means the creators always intended the personality to be the deciding factor.

So why did Roku say the the most difficult element for him was water? Because his aggressive, driven, no-nonsense nature did not lend itself to the Waterbending discipline of flowing with the opponent, adaptability, and flexibility? That's not what Roku was like at all. He was a pretty likeable and easy-going guy. In fact, he even says to Aang that his biggest regret was being too merciful to kill Sozen when he had the chance.

Tenzin's attitude towards Korra when addressing this also indicates this is nothing special. He sounds like he's talking to a child about puberty, or about the nervousness of going on a first date. He suggests this is something that every Avatar goes through, and explicitly for this reason. This isn't what they say or even imply in the original show.

Finally, there's no good reason to assume Korra started her Avatar training at age 4. Aang, after being raised as only an Airbender, mastered all of the elements in less than a year when he was 12. Korra is now 17 which could just as easily suggest she started when she was 16, like she was supposed to, and progressed at a similar rate to Aang.

There are some changes happening to Nightmare Fuel. In brief, all wicks to HONF (and maybe ANF — I'm less clear on that one) are being changed to NF and pages in the HONF namespace are getting cleaned and moved to NF (so the original will be cut; in this case, that simplt hasn't happened yet). See this thread for more information and to help with the cleanup.

67 actually, since Korra appears to be about 15. I'm sure it'll be explained when it airs.

Bryke confirmed in an interview that Aang's lifespan was shortened by the time he spent in the iceberg.

Any chance we could get a link to that?

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/07/21/legend-of-korra-the-creators-of-avatar-the-last-airbender-on-the-new-spinoff/

Here's hoping Azula got loose and decided to take her revenge on Aang.

I'm guessing a heart attack would be more likely.

His century in the iceberg is a pretty simple way to explain Aangs death at around his late 60s, early 70s. He was technically a 170 years old (well his spirit was) so its a pretty clever way to keep some old characters alive and have a new Avatar in the picture.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that Azula would be far more interested in killing Zuko if she ever did get out.

If the young looking statue of Aang has anything to do with how hhe looked during his last days, I think it would tie into what Born In 1142 said.

The statue was probably commissioned when Aang helped found the city, or based on how he looked at his prime, rather than how he looked during his last days.

@beeftony: Nickelodeon's website says Aang lived to be 66. Korra is 17.

Nope, it's an adult Aang, with a chinstrap beard. All of the benders in the Korra intro are Avatars.

Well, there's the nickelodeon press site (from which the pilot was likely leaked before its limited korranation streaming) trailers and some advance interviews, plus the 2011 Comic Con Panel, and korranation itself. They cultivated a lot of advance buzz through various channels.

I agree. I like the one that was before it with all the characters. Why was it changed?

I'd suggest going through Image Pickin' on the forums. That way, once it's changed it can't be arbitrarily changed back without going through IP again.

. . . I don't know how to do that

Yeah. I definitely think we need one. I'll try to make one right now. If I can't, I'll go to the forum to ask someone how to do it.

Two episodes in and we already got a recap page? Just shows how popular this is among tropers.

Agreed.

If you think it's a CMoF, go right ahead and add it to the appropriate page. But I doubt the line was directed towards the audience.

At the very least it was a Take That! at the White Lotus who were skeptical.

Yes, Nickelodeon does need to adjust the US title to get rid of the nonsensical Artifact

Not so non-sensical due to James Cameron. In any case, The Last Airbender: Legend Of Korra is the official title.

There was this discussion on the previous discussion page where it was decided that it should be moved here. if we're just going to go back and forth there should be a much more thought-out discussion.

Can you link to the old discussion?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=WesternAnimation.TheLastAirbenderLegendOfKorra

It's quick, but is essentially the same conversation that happened two posts up (The official name is XXX, let's change it).

Oh okay. That link didn't really have proof of the change...we have the official website that labels it The Last Airbender: Legend of Korra. Before I move anything, yeah there should be more discussion.

According to Bryan, it's The Legend Of Korra. He posted it on his tumblr here.

So....do we move everything over?

It is indeed officially The Legendof Korra. I second moving everything.

Thirding!