Western Animation Batman Beyond Return Of The Joker Discussion

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07:21:37 PM Apr 14th 2013
Does anyone know if Netflix has the original or the cut version?
09:23:42 PM Mar 18th 2011
I think The Joker Immunity was still in place here. Just because Tim's chip was destroyed doesn't mean it was Joker's only way of surviving. In fact, by going digital he would have gained immortality. The satellite at the end moved with deliberate purpose and was lingered on for more than a few beats. There could also be more chips or other places he continues. I love what was said at the end of Azzarello's Joker graphic novel. "..a disease. One that has been around longer than Gotham, the city it infects....There will ALWAYS be a Joker. Because there is no cure for him. no cure at all. Just a Batman." He always survives and he always comes back, even if we don't see it.
02:51:13 PM Nov 19th 2010
Ok, I want to ask JBK 405 why he continue to delete my edit. I've written very clearly why it's a deconstruction of the Kid Hero trope, and I want to know why he continue to delete it without telling the actual reason.
03:20:25 PM Nov 19th 2010
He left it in his edit reason

Please stop re-adding this. Please. It is simply not a deconstruction. A deconstruction lists the inevitable and realistic consequences of a trope, and being tortured, mind raped and body-jacked is not an inevitable consequence of being a kid hero. Being beaten up because you are a kid fighting adults, yes, but that's not what happened, he was whacked from behind that would have been just as effective against an adult, he was tortured to hurt Batman, not because he was a kid or a child. it showed none of the personal or psychological issues that would arise from lon nights, lying to family and friends, etc. yes, this shows a potentially horrible consequence of being a Kid Hero or Kid Sidekick, but just having a Downer Ending does not necessarily make something a deconstruction.

I am inclined to agree with his reasoning. The Joker would have gone for anyone who is on close term with Batman. That it was Robin is immaterial, the Joker could have gone for Nightwing or even Gordon.
04:28:45 PM Nov 19th 2010
edited by Dommie222
Maybe, but it wasn't Nightwing or Gordon who was kidnapped and tortured, no was it? It was very clear it was the Kid Hero trope the creators wanted to deconstuct, not The Lancer or Da Chief. They wanted to show how dangerous it would be for a real life kid to play superhero in a city like Gotham. And they also showed that the trauma would had been much more damaging to a kid than it would had been to an adult. Just because The Joker didn't tortured him because he was kid it doesn't mean he's more immun to the pain from it. If it was Nightwing or Gordon, than they wouldn't have been as traumatized as Robin, as they've learned to endure it, but not Robin. Since he's a kid, his mind ain't enough developed to handle that part of the job, and so it got much more worst. And The Joker did told Batman it was Robin he wanted to use against him, and no one else. Criminals using children against their enemies had been on Earth IRL since the first civilization. Robin may have be trained as a crime fighter, but he still is a kid, and still more vulnerable to amorally psychopaths.

"It showed none of the psychological issues". The kid ended up with PTSD due what happened to him. If you don't know what it is, than I'll tell you. It's called "Post-trauma stess disorder" and it's a psychological disorder, born from traumatic happenings. With it its includes bad nightmares and memories, feeling emotionally numb and frigthened and easily startled, and that was Robin was showing as an adult. And studies have showed that it ain't just Vietnam veterans who ends up with it, but anyone can end up with it. Robin ended up with it, and it infected his life as well his relationship with Bruce (meaning it's almost non-existing), an another common symptom with PTSD. So I think it's realistically as possible it can be for a superhero movie.
07:46:32 PM Nov 19th 2010
edited by JBK405
Point by point:

1) "They wanted to show how dangerous it would be for a real life kid to play superhero in a city like Gotham." No, they showed how dangerous it was for a person to play superhero. He was not defeated in a way that would have spared an adult, he was not more vulnerable because he was a child, it was standard "Lure in a good guy and whack him over the back of the head." Batman himself was knocked out and tied up on more than one occasion in this series by enemies showing no more skill than was used to knock out Robin. After the Joker was defeated here, Batman shut out both Batgirl and Nightewing, who were into adulthood by now, because he saw the dangers to everybody, not just little kids.

2) "And they also showed that the trauma would had been much more damaging to a kid than it would had been to an adult...If it was Nightwing or Gordon, than they wouldn't have been as traumatized as Robin, as they've learned to endure it, but not Robin" They showed no such thing. They never showed a comparison with an adult being tortured, never said "And it was worse because he was so young." We have no reason to believe an adult would have been any more or less traumatized than Robin.

3) "The kid ended up with PTSD due what happened to him." No, he didn't. He was brainwashed and body-jacked by advanced technology, he was Mind Raped. He was tortured until his mind broke, yes, but the nightmares that haunted him as an adult were the byproduct of bizarre technology and delusions created by his brain attemtping to handle having his DNA rewritten. Until the Joker reawakened he had managed to come to terms with an adjust to what had happened to him, leaving his life as Robin behind. He did not have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, with which I am quite familiar, he exhibited symptons very close to PTSD that sprang from a completely unconnected cause.

Just having a Downer Ending and having a trope be the opposite of what we expect, dark and gritty instead of lighthearted, does not make something a deconstruction.

EDIT: For an actual deconstruction of the Kid Hero genre, I reommend classic Spiderman, and even the majority of Batman Beyond series itself with Terry (Although BB is a rather light deconstruction). In both they have to deal with the negative impact on their professional lives/careers (Time spent hero-ing leaves them no time for studying or working), their personal lives (Always leaving family and friends, never getting enough sleep, etc.) and even their physical health (Not just the immediate problem of always being beaten up, but the long-term detrimental effects of sleep deprivation, the frequent re-breaking of bones that has a cumulative weakening of your musculature, etc). Their stories constantly point out how, despite the coolness that comes with their abilities, the very nature of doing what they do means their lives are painful, emotionally empty, a risk to their loved ones, etc. even without any great personal trauma or grand event. That's a deconstruction, showing the real-life consequences stemming from a trope, not just saying "See, XXXXXX is present, and the situation is very bad."
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