Website Star Destroyer Dot Net Discussion

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honeyishrunkmyself
Topic
12:50:56 AM Jan 8th 2016
I have no idea how you got the idea that this site is a hate fic towards star trek.

Acording to the FAQ: "Do you hate Star Trek? If we're talking about real Star Trek (read: TOS and to a lesser extent, TNG), not at all. I also liked all of the even-numbered Star Trek films, and I believe that Star Trek 6 was the ultimate Star Trek film....." Nuff' Said
MarkWilder
06:16:59 PM Jan 24th 2016
Because it *is* a hate fic. I understand that I must prove this accusation. First, let us define the term "hate fic". Conveniently, TV Tropes.com provides the definition for me.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HateFic

Now that we have a definition: let us see the evidence.

Exhibit A: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/

A website deliberately designed to look like wartime propaganda, directed against Star Trek and slanted in Star Wars' favor, by its own words and format.

Exhibit B: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Brahms/index.html

This page fits the very structure of a Hate Fic to the letter: no farther discussion is needed.

Exhibit C: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/Boarding1.html

The format of this page speaks as if it was written by an Imperial officer, and conveniently ignores several facts of both universes to make it's assumptions. Namely, in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, the former stormtrooper FN-2187 ("Finn") mentions that Stormtroopers are NOT protected against toxins, only smoke. Yes, this information is newer than the webpage, but there is NOTHING in the Star Wars films suggesting that Stormtroopers are protected from airborne toxins at all, and the claim has no reference. As for it's treatment of Star Trek, it outright cherry picks two, and only two Star Trek episodes (out of HUNDREDS, with the transporter used to place persons with extreme precision in nearly all of them) to make the transporter seem far more unreliable than it is.

I don't want to start any debate here, but let's not shy away from calling a website anything other than what it is, feelings aside.
Omeganian
12:49:37 AM Jan 25th 2016
Well, not sure how serious the author is with your first exhibit. But concerning the third... for one thing, you need to provide the source where Mr. Wong could have gotten a copy of The Force Awakens as of the time of his last update. For another, where does he criticize transporter precision? As far as I remember, he talks about them being easily blocked, and gives far more sources than two. Plus, he claims to love Star Trek - if it is a Hate Fic, then it's one against TNG era Federation. Judging from the quotes he gives in the database, the base for that isn't the shakiest one.
MarkWilder
05:54:40 PM Jan 25th 2016
edited by MarkWilder
In defense of Exhibit A: The very appearance of the site's introductory page precludes the possibility of anything else. I see no indication that it was meant to do more than appeal to certain Star Wars fans, despite it's commentary including Star Trek.

In defense of Exhibit C: The fact is, he could only have concluded that Stormtroopers are protected from nerve-gas by conjecture: not evaluation. He also states that Starfleet has no environmental protection suits, despite them being very commonly used: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Environmental_suit

As for transporter precision, Mr. Wong clearly said:

"In the unlikely event of momentary shield failure, our stormtrooper divisions should be made aware that Federation troops may appear on the ship at random locations."

Random. As in, not organized, or directed. He also avoids mentioning the other obvious and often demonstrated uses: sending a bomb via transporter, or stealing targeted people, such as captains. The page gives two, and exactly two, references to support it's claims: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tactics/Boarding1.html Star Trek 6, and the DS9 episode "The Way of the Warrior" are the only references given. Yet he has screenshots from Star Trek: Nemesis: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-2.html Why not mention the time that Captain Picard was simply transported out of his ship mid-sentence, since he has a screenshot of it? In the same movie, the Enterprise beams an entire Reman fighter directly into it's shuttlebay. The answer is simple: he did not want to, because it would expose the possibility of teleporting Imperial commanders into captivity or bombs into reactor cores, thus, the possibility pf a Starfleet victory.

This comment has been edited for clarity, and to resolve format mistakes.
Omeganian
11:05:22 PM Jan 25th 2016
edited by Omeganian
The first point looks more like Rooting for the Empire, or perhaps Perspective Flip.

Stormtrooper armor: According to the SWVD, a stormtrooper's armour is the product of millenia of refinement in personal combat protection equipment, and it affords the wearer complete protection from a wide variety of threats, such as extreme temperature variations, the vacuum of space (albeit only briefly), radiogenic fallout, nerve gases, and biological agents. Can't you even check the pages you criticize?

EVA suits... yes, Feds have EVA suits. And so does modern Earth. We are talking about combat here. When was the last time you saw a Real Life soldier wearing an EVA suit as NBC protection in a combat zone? Or a Fed? You don't, because they are not suitable for these situations.

"At random points": that means random for them. The stormtroopers are unlikely to know what location the Federation captain will choose for insertion.

Then, what do you mean by "two cases"? The link you provide gives only one example, and the site provides a lot more

Beaming the captain away: never watched the movie, but Memory Alpha says "Shinzon wants Picard to surrender and allow Shinzon to transport him aboard his ship."

Beaming a bomb into a reactor core? Big energy source; jamming is off the charts by definition.
MarkWilder
08:57:33 PM Jan 26th 2016
edited by MarkWilder
"When was the last time you saw a Real Life soldier wearing an EVA suit as NBC protection in a combat zone? Or a Fed? You don't, because they are not suitable for these situations."

Starfleet makes phasers specifically for use with EVA suits. And more: they also have personal forcefields of various types.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_bubble - This personal forcefield is expressly used to protect the wearer from the environment.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_force_field - A modification of the above idea, these personal forcefields were used to separate the wearers from distortions in time.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Life_support_belt - These were used to protect the user from environments as extreme as the vacuum of space, so they are obviously immune to NBC attacks. Thus, these two claims...

"The Federation troopers should fall easily to nerve-gas grenades thanks to their lack of environmental protection suits, and stormtrooper armour protects its wearers from nerve gas."

...are both untrue.

"Then, what do you mean by "two cases"? The link you provide gives only one example, and the site provides a lot more"

Transporters are used EVERY time the crew leaves the ship to go basically anywhere. All that first link you provided does, is pick all of the specific incidents in which transporters have malfunctioned: 55 times in 728 Star Trek releases, so he had to do some SERIOUS hunting. (That also means that he must have known about the EVA suits and personal forcefields: he went hunting through the whole library of Star Trek!) The second link also makes this claim:

"There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation has had any kind of armoured vehicle in its entire history."

Because Earth, and the countless other planets in the Federation never had wars in their entire history, right? Wrong. They simply are not important to the narrative. Exploring strange new worlds rarely calls for tanks. Nevertheless, some are mentioned in the background:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ground_assault_vehicle

"Beaming the captain away: never watched the movie"

Then you should at the very least look up the scene before daring to speak: Data had to break Picard out, and they escaped in a Reman Attack Fighter they stole from the hangar deck.

"Beaming a bomb into a reactor core? Big energy source; jamming is off the charts by definition."

You seem to make far more assumptions than you do research. The Enterprise transported an entire Klingon crew off of a battlecruiser leaking radiation directly from the reactor in the episode, "Day of the Dove". No problems with the transporter were even implied.
Omeganian
11:38:49 PM Jan 26th 2016
edited by Omeganian
"When was the last time you saw a Real Life soldier wearing an EVA suit as NBC protection in a combat zone? Or a Fed? You don't, because they are not suitable for these situations."

Starfleet makes phasers specifically for use with EVA suits.

My point exactly. They have no NBC defenses for combat situations. They only have a way to give limited combat ability to civilian NBC. If you cannot even understand the difference between a tank and a car with a gun taped to it, what are you doing on this site?

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_bubble - This personal forcefield is expressly used to protect the wearer from the environment.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Subspace_force_field - A modification of the above idea, these personal forcefields were used to separate the wearers from distortions in time.

Judging from the links provided, you could just as well insist they can wear their shuttles into combat. No indication it can be used as anti-weapon defense.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Life_support_belt - These were used to protect the user from environments as extreme as the vacuum of space, so they are obviously immune to NBC attacks.

Canonicity is debatable. After all, it's never seen in other series.

Thus, these two claims...

"The Federation troopers should fall easily to nerve-gas grenades thanks to their lack of environmental protection suits, and stormtrooper armour protects its wearers from nerve gas."

...are both untrue.

The second was true back then. The first is most definitely true, since we see explicitly that no troops have such protection when facing an enemy.

"There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation has had any kind of armoured vehicle in its entire history."

Because Earth, and the countless other planets in the Federation never had wars in their entire history, right? Wrong.

Yup, we can WMG, but no evidence.

Exploring strange new worlds rarely calls for tanks. Nevertheless, some are mentioned in the background:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ground_assault_vehicle

So, despite them fighting full scale wars during the series, the only combat vehicle ever mentioned is a Klingon one. Doesn't really work in your favour.

"Beaming the captain away: never watched the movie"

Then you should at the very least look up the scene before daring to speak: Data had to break Picard out, and they escaped in a Reman Attack Fighter they stole from the hangar deck.

So, they can beam a person off an unshielded, unprepared vessel after a few hours near it to prepare. A non sequitur; we're discussing combat.
Larkmarn
05:44:09 AM Jan 27th 2016
Alright, guys?

This is not the place for debating Star Wars vs. Star Trek. Period. There are thousands of places across the net for exactly this and this discussion page ain't one of them. This is for discussing whether something should be on the page or not.

I think Hate Fic might be appropriate... if this qualifies as a Fan Fic. Which I feel like it doesn't. So honestly, it seems like shoehorning.
MarkWilder
03:04:57 PM Jan 27th 2016
Larkmarn

Apparently, that is the very reason this debate exists: he does not want that trope there. Why should it be there? Because it matches the description on the page describing Hate Fic, exactly. On the Hate Fic trope page, it says:

"Simply put, Hate Fic is Revenge Fic on a series-wide scale. The author sets out to deliberately attack an entire show, either through simply mocking it and its characters or by the techniques of Deconstruction."

Which is exactly what Stardestroyer.net does. Omeganian turned this into a debate in an attempt to justify the website's nature, NOT to report on the tropes it represents. In addition, he has not attempted to look at my references in full, instead consistently picking one to try and debunk, and running with that alone. Look at the nature of his arguments below:

"My point exactly. They have no NBC defenses for combat situations. They only have a way to give limited combat ability to civilian NBC."

Civilians don't carry phasers, pal. They are military grade weapons. Nor are civilians ever found on Sovereign Class Starships. If Starfleet designed phasers to use with EVA suits, and they did, they expected Starfleet personnel to be wielding them in battle. (As they did) Any other assumption is blatantly ridiculous.

"Canonicity is debatable. After all, it's never seen in other series."

Actually, those three links I posted reference THREE different Star Trek series: The Next Generation, Voyager, and the Animated Series. You should look at ALL of my references next time, instead of trying to counter the last one alone, as if it was a separate item.

"So, despite them fighting full scale wars during the series, the only combat vehicle ever mentioned is a Klingon one."

Because everyone is -usually- in outer space on a starship, traveling planet to planet. Tanks aren't often mentioned in films about submarine warfare either: that doesn't mean they don't exist. Your assertion that tanks don't exist because they are not seen, is a fallacy known as Argument from Ignorance.

"So, they can beam a person off an unshielded, unprepared vessel after a few hours near it to prepare."

Really? You said yourself:

"never watched the movie"

How could you know they had "hours" to prepare anything? The fact is, transporters are used heavily in every Star Trek series to date, in nearly every single episode, starting with the first pilot episode in 1965. It doesn't ever take "hours" for a transporter to get a target and teleport it in any instance, only seconds, and nearly always less than ten seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt8U0ZL7fHQ And yes, it has been used in combat... in the movie that you ADMIT you haven't seen, and many other instances.
Omeganian
04:59:37 PM Jan 27th 2016
Civilians don't carry phasers, pal.

Source, please.

If Starfleet designed phasers to use with EVA suits, and they did, they expected Starfleet personnel to be wielding them in battle.

No, it merely means that they expected people in EVA suits to be in a position where they'll have to defend themselves. A modern pilot is assigned a sidearm, but he's not sent into battle as infantry.

Actually, those three links I posted reference THREE different Star Trek series: The Next Generation, Voyager, and the Animated Series.

Yes, and I addressed all three, and apparently, you have no counterargument for the other two.

Because everyone is -usually- in outer space on a starship, traveling planet to planet. Tanks aren't often mentioned in films about submarine warfare either: that doesn't mean they don't exist. Your assertion that tanks don't exist because they are not seen, is a fallacy known as Argument from Ignorance.

A series about submarine warfare doesn't often mention infantry battles either; ST has plenty. I see no analogy.

The fact is, transporters are used heavily in every Star Trek series to date, in nearly every single episode, starting with the first pilot episode in 1965. It doesn't ever take "hours" for a transporter to get a target and teleport it in any instance, only seconds, and nearly always less than ten seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt8U0ZL7fHQ And yes, it has been used in combat... in the movie that you ADMIT you haven't seen, and many other instances.

You were explicitly talking about the specific case of beaming away a person out of a ship which tries to prevent it. Why the sudden goalpost shifting?
MarkWilder
07:27:09 PM Jan 28th 2016
"Source, please."

Wow. Just wow. That's like asking for a source on why civilians don't carry miniguns... this is the part where you claim EVA Phasers (or phasers in general) are like "sidearms" and that there is NO reason to keep them out of civilian hands. Here's an idea, before you reply farther, look up a few things about phasers on a website other than Starestroyer.net. You may learn something.

"Yes, and I addressed all three"

Previously - "Judging from the links provided, you could just as well insist they can wear their shuttles into combat. No indication it can be used as anti-weapon defense."

Strawman argument, and foolish: ALL THREE LINKS PROVIDED INSTANCES OF PERSONAL USE, AND THE PAGE IMAGE IS OF A WEARER USING IT. Nerve gas (which we WERE discussing) won't get through by the very nature of the device. Before you start, no one said they would work against PHASERS... even though they can, demonstrably. You will tell me to find a source: that would be "Beyond the Farthest Star", which is indeed canon.

"A series about submarine warfare doesn't often mention infantry battles either; ST has plenty. I see no analogy."

Then I am arguing with a person who isn't smart at all: an offhand mention of a land battle or two does not necessitate showing off a tank column when they are discussing the battle in DEEP SPACE. The entire series is set in space, so what do you expect to see?

"You were explicitly talking about the specific case of beaming away a person out of a ship which tries to prevent it. Why the sudden goalpost shifting?"

Hell: you just suggested that Transporters take HOURS to operate to try to counter my point, then when I explained that they DON'T ever take that long, you claim a goalpost shift? With what little you seem to know, it's safe to say you don't even know enough to know what the goalposts even look like.
Omeganian
09:58:41 PM Jan 28th 2016
this is the part where you claim EVA Phasers (or phasers in general) are like "sidearms" and that there is NO reason to keep them out of civilian hands.

No idea about the civilian part. Situations where we would expect Federation civilians to use weapons are hardly more common than situations where we would expect to see tank warfare.

EVA suits... yes, they can be fought in. So what? The question is; is it a viable tactic to send people wearing them into frontline combat, or is that merely an emergency measure.

Strawman argument, and foolish: ALL THREE LINKS PROVIDED INSTANCES OF PERSONAL USE, AND THE PAGE IMAGE IS OF A WEARER USING IT. Nerve gas (which we WERE discussing) won't get through by the very nature of the device. Before you start, no one said they would work against PHASERS... even though they can, demonstrably.

True, we don't know what they are effective against. But we know they cannot be used in combat, otherwise they would be.

The entire series is set in space, so what do you expect to see?

The same thing we see in Mass Effect; exploration of unknown and potentially hazardous planets done in well armed and armored vehicles and sealed personal armor.

Hell: you just suggested that Transporters take HOURS to operate to try to counter my point, then when I explained that they DON'T ever take that long, you claim a goalpost shift? With what little you seem to know, it's safe to say you don't even know enough to know what the goalposts even look like.

No, you stated that the Federation can beam a captain off the ship during combat. The one example you give is Picard being beamed off in a sneak attack during lengthy negotiations. Can they beam people onto the ship during combat? If the shields and jamming fail, maybe, but you'll still have to fight past the ship's guards.
SeptimusHeap
05:22:10 AM Jan 29th 2016
<Moderator speaking>

Please do not use this page to discuss whether Star Trek or Star Wars are "better" than the other. Only discussion about the content of the page should happen here, thanks!
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