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SomeName
topic
12:01:21 AM Oct 3rd 2013
edited by 108.218.233.34
I know this is discussed below, but it seems like from the last ten edits most of the additions at this point still boil down to complaints about the work.

Could we maybe get a bit more self-editing on the phrasing and length of the example text so that the default state isn't openly talking about how much the characters are badly-written and the story sucks? That pretty explicitly shouldn't go in a non-YMMV article. There's still a review section if you just want to completely let loose on the comic.

It also seems like there's a little too much of a pattern of finding tropes that discuss how a character is a bad person (or similar issue) despite the author's intended portrayal, which seems like it goes against the spirit of writing an objective article even if it follows the rules indicated by the trope descriptions themselves. Say, someone could conceivably justify putting Kazuo in as a Dirty Coward for not confronting Makoto directly toward the ending, but this interpretation would obviously come from the bias of a specific reader.
Sheora
topic
08:41:07 AM Aug 27th 2013
I removed the bulk of recent additions. The page was becoming a complaining fest. I know the ending to the story has upset many people (and don't respond to this by accusing me of just not agreeing because she got the guy I wanted. I wasn't satisfied with the ending either.) but you can't let that permeate into the descriptions provided here. Take some time, calm down about the ending, and then edit when you have a more objective head on your shoulders. If you think these opinions really should be heard, that's what the reviews section is for.
Rebochan
11:24:30 AM Aug 27th 2013
Wait, so you just bulk removed a crapton of examples because you don't like them? Not cool. I'm putting them back because unless you have a reason why any of them aren't valid, that's not a reason to remove them.
Ferrard
06:35:21 PM Aug 27th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Rebochan, your entries have been a bit... enthusiastic, to say the least. In a more general sense, I strongly disagree with the way the ending has gone, and I'm severely disappointed in Gina's trashing of the story in an attempt to tie it all up with a bow and move on, but the sheer number of rants that people have added to the page is pretty ridiculous.
Rebochan
09:45:48 PM Aug 27th 2013
Fair enough on the reductions - I was mainly concerned with not providing enough context, but I see your edits are a reasonable compromise. Idiot Ball may need some level of expansion for context though. That's why they got so lengthy.

Creator's Pet actually does need to be a certain length though - in the course of trying to reform the entry, it has to establish a few rules are met. In particular, bringing up the actual evidence of creator favoritism is really important, as well as establishing overly unusual Character Focus, Character Shilling, and the Broken Base.
Sheora
01:51:14 AM Aug 28th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
I removed them after pming you about cutting down the complaining yourself (you ignored me) and then consulting a mod. I don't have time to go through every single one and edit out the complaining. That's your job for the ones you added. Your readds look a lot better on that note.

I never said the tropes weren't valid, just the walls of text ranting on them. Put the tropes back in with clear and concise explanations. The ranting that went with them is what should go the the review section. I removed Satellite Love Interest along with it because even though the discussion came to the conclusion that it does fit, it read like "Makoto sucks!" and needed to be rewritten too.
Ferrard
04:57:34 PM Aug 29th 2013
Good point on Creator's Pet, good edits. I might see if there's a succinct, non-offensive way to add a little context to Idiot Ball, but I'm still leery of touching munitions as live as this page.
Rebochan
06:51:05 PM Aug 29th 2013
Essentially, any Idiot Ball moment is when a character is presented with a problem with a simple solution that the story does not allow them to pursue simply because the writer doesn't want them to. As opposed to because the story has provided a reason for them not to pursue that action.

For example, Reika never takes a single pregnancy test - because doing so would have immediately ended the pregnancy plot. She never even gives a reason that would justify this (such as being too scared of the results) - it just never comes up in the story and nobody suggests it.

Similarly, the entire issue with the "financial problems" plot could have been solved by Makoto and Miharu being upfront about the seriousness of their relationship to her parents and reassurance that dating would not torpedo the restaurant deal. But doing so would not have provided a false conflict where Makoto has to give something up to make himself seem more noble. It's even doubly stupid when the last page of the comic is Miharu announcing they're engaged - meaning he literally quit the business for no reason at all when the two of them getting engaged would have immediately resolved the conflict without requiring Makoto to give up his job.
Sheora
08:01:44 PM Aug 30th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
The way you wrote out Reika's that time looks objective enough to add to the page.

The second description is closer, but still needs a little editing. Mainly calling it stupid, and maybe making it a little briefer.
Ferrard
11:33:58 PM Aug 30th 2013
I went ahead and added a variant of Rebo's Idiot Ball summaries on the main page. Check how that reads for me.
Sheora
topic
09:14:42 PM May 5th 2013
This was added to the main page today. I think it needs discussion before it is included.

  • Shallow Love Interest: Many people have pointed out that besides enjoying cooking, jewelry making and being from a rich family, Yosue Makoto has no other definite personality traits outside of being obsessed with Miharu.

Makoto is a touchy subject with the fans and I think this has the potential to be complaining or bashing. It may be completely valid, but let's hash it out first and get the language right. Right now, the way it is worded sounds like fan opinion instead of actual evidence in the comic supporting it.
Ferrard
10:49:50 PM May 5th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Entry on the trope's page itself is even more blunt - c/p for comparison:

  • Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, Yosue Makoto from Red String is this in spades. From his first appearance and throughout the comic, all he has ever wanted was Miharu, even while she was engaged to Kazuo. He never gives Miharu (or the audience) a reason why he's in love with her, he just is. Aside from his obsession with her, we don't know much else about him aside from a few throwaway traits.

WRT the entry on this page, it's pretty hard to deny that Makoto has been defined for a long stretch of the comic as "Veronica to Kazuo's Betty" or vice versa. Perhaps the wording / language can be softened to avoid the potential for a napalm strike from one ship or the other. For that matter, a less-is-more approach might work too. Should be Satellite Love Interest to reflect the re-name. Example:

Rebochan
11:56:33 PM May 5th 2013
Okay, let's get a proper look at this trope.

For starters, it's actually supposed to be Satellite Love Interest after a round in the repair shop and they're a lot stricter about it.

Intro the page claims:

"A type of Satellite Character who exists primarily to serve as the love interest for a main character. It doesn't matter what their life was like beforehand; their focus in the story revolves around the sole fact that they dig said main character, and the main character digs them. A staple of Harem Series. When part of a movie, it's usually because the plot revolves around a second love interest that is used to show how much better the Satellite Love Interest is for the protagonist."

I noticed he has an entry now on the trope's page (from a different troper - and none of them are me!) that seems to put this into perspective:

  • Regardless of whether or not it was intentional, Yosue Makoto from RedString is this in spades. From his first appearance and throughout the comic, all he has ever wanted was Miharu, even while she was engaged to Kazuo. He never gives Miharu (or the audience) a reason why he's in love with her, he just is. Aside from his obsession with her, we don't know much else about him aside from a few throwaway traits.

Yea, that's a more convincing argument for this trope. We're not Wikipedia, so we don't need to cite pages in the trope examples.

I think normally the litmus test for a Satellite Character of any sort is whether or not they would cease to exist or otherwise have no defined personality if their relationship to another character vanished. I think Makoto is very borderline. While he really does have no role in the story except to eventually date Miharu and every story arc about him is "Will he date Miharu?", we do know a bit more about the guy than that. Remove Makoto from the story and the impact would be rather large, though Miharu would still have a storyline without him. On the other hand, remove Miharu from Makoto's storyline and he literally has no storyline. Even his arc with dating Karen seriously would collapse because Miharu was intimately involved in it. Even his solo chapters just show him pining for Miharu or show something like "Makoto fell in love with Miharu because of a picture."

Compare some of the other love interests and even Kazuo has a huge story arc that would continue to exist with or without Miharu, even though she makes an impact. For other examples, Hanae is more defined by her insecurities about her body and sexuality then whether or not she's dating Fuuko. Eiji had a long story arc before he dated Reika that in several respects seems to have not actually stopped existing even now that he's officially a love interest for her, even though Reika is an important component.

So Makoto is either skating by due to how much time the story spends on him being obsessed with and eventually dating Miharu, or he's the deepest example of this trope ever.

I opened up a discussion on this topic over on Satellite Love Interest as well since I imagine it may end up impacting that trope's examples going forward.
Sheora
09:33:40 PM May 6th 2013
I think it is far from clear that he's an example of the trope. He has had the subplot of his difficult dating life (finding his confidence, etc) which started long before he met Miharu. And while she did impact the Makoto and Karen story line, Miharu was not the central point of that. Makoto's primary problem in that was that he was engaged to a girl he did not love and who did not love him. The fact that he was in love with another girl on top of that is just extra conflict and confusion for him to deal with while he figures the main problem out. I think you can still see that story line for him continuing in the current story line. Before he was just happy to do what his parents wanted - take over a restaurant, marry the girl they choose - and now he is willing to defy those decisions to choose the person he wants to be with.

He would fit the trope if the only time he ever showed up on scene was to be someone for Miharu to kiss. He's had far too much development for that. If there is one character I could think of that could possibly fit into the trope it would be Yuuki. He's received little to no character development other than filling the role of Maya having someone.
Rebochan
01:06:59 AM May 13th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.2
Where's his character development, though? Where is his sudden transformation into someone that doesn't have a single-minded obsession with Miharu? All of your examples were in plotlines that were intended to prove that all he cared about was dating Miharu - the "troubled dating life" was used to Retcon the character into someone that wasn't a jerk with no respect for Miharu, but a wounded soul that...still had no respect for Miharu but now we're supposed to feel sorry for him. And it was also part of a chapter that, of course, was intended to show how much more Makoto wanted to date Miharu than anyone else.

Every storyline about this guy is simply intended to pair him up with Miharu at a future point in time. He has no other personality traits - even his intended career path is so minor to the storyline that he never talks about it - just how much he wants to date Miharu.

Can we come up with a single role for Makoto in this comic that isn't "he's her other love interest"?
Sheora
04:04:47 PM May 15th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
That's not a retcon. A retcon is when you go back and change something that was already established in the story line. An actual Red String retcon would be Hanae's yoyo dieting. She was supposed to look heavy but came out with just a giant rack. So it was changed so that she was very skinny when Fuuko met her because of serious dieting before and how now started to gain a lot of the weight back. You have to have proof of a change in the story line or some Word of God for it to qualify as a retcon. All that was was character backstory.

I still don't see any merit in the argument for this trope application. Every argument for it just seems to focus on how much people don't like him. It reads like it's bordering on complaining. Here's my comparison with another character that does fit said trope:

Makoto:
Loves Miharu
Wealthy parents who want him to take over the restaurant they are purchasing
Engaged to a girl he doesn't love
Self esteem issues when it comes to women
Enjoys jewelry making
Very close with his friends back home
Has a hard time making new friends

Yuuki:
Loves Maya
Plays baseball

See the difference?
Rebochan
08:03:15 PM May 20th 2013
"That's not a retcon. A retcon is when you go back and change something that was already established in the story line."

It's also used to alter perception of a character's personality. The entire storyline of Makoto's ex making him "mean" was clearly added later to soften up his character since he'd been such a colossal jerk to Miharu in the beginning and never really reformed aside from the story telling us he did.

"I still don't see any merit in the argument for this trope application. Every argument for it just seems to focus on how much people don't like him. It reads like it's bordering on complaining. "

"Here's my comparison with another character that does fit said trope:

Makoto: Loves Miharu"

....yea, that's the main problem, but go on.

"Wealthy parents who want him to take over the restaurant they are purchasing"

Not a character trait, and also used a storyline mechanism to ensure the character is close to Miharu at all times whether she likes it or lot. The restaurant only just came up in the story, and even Miharu pointed out in today's update that he's only staying because he wants to date her.

"Engaged to a girl he doesn't love"

Not a character trait, and convenient that you left out "because he's obsessed with Miharu and even his ex tells him to date her."

"Self esteem issues when it comes to women"

Finally, a character trait...except, one he doesn't really express except one time when he basically gets into Miharu's pants by claiming it. And also one used to further emphasize that he's obsessed with Miharu - we only learn about this as part of learning how long he's been obsessed with her and as an excuse for how he treated her.

"Enjoys jewelry making"

Yea, that was in the original entry. Not much of a trait - it's a hobby. It's also used to further tie him to Miharu, since she loves jewelry too. Starting to notice a pattern for this character?

"Very close with his friends back home"

Not a character trait, and his friends are also largely shown only to tell him he should date Miharu.

"Has a hard time making new friends"

Where did this show up?

"Yuuki: Loves Maya Plays baseball"

You also left off - "Gets dumped, leaves story." Yuuki is just one love interest of many for Maaya and he quietly exits when their relationship goes south.
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