Web Animation Death Battle Discussion

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Tonathan100
Topic
10:50:08 AM Mar 20th 2015
edited by Tonathan100
Rebuttal to a DMOS

Why Not Now: Goku VS. Superman. Holy shit, this video is just awful. Not only does it use serious Hand-Waving and Loophole Abuse to tweak the stats of both combatants to influence the outcome, not only do they go back and forth between anime and manga to calculate Goku's feats, not only does it treat it as if Goku is totally outclassed in every conceivable way against Superman and will absolutely never, ever stand a chance against every version of the Man of Steel no matter how strong he gets in any Super Mode he has, but it is just a plain bad video, not helped by Goku's TFS voice actor and the impishly childish demeanor he gives to Goku. First Goku goes up to Superman intending to kill him because he's afraid he's going to destroy the Earth, which is so out-of-character that it's just plain shocking and insulting to any Dragon Ball Z fans watching, bordering on Character Derailment, but then they end it with Superman actually killing everyone on the Earth just to stop Goku, proving that Goku was right after all. *Facepalm* If they were looking to make a Death Battle where Superman won, then they completely, utterly, epically failed on all levels. The simplest option would have been to just grab the strongest form of Goku and Superman from each side, which would be Super Saiyan God Goku, who is strong enough to compete with a casual galaxy buster, and Pre-Crisis Silver Age Superman, who has been shown to have the power to withstand big bang explosions, and then have them duke it out, with the entire universe being destroyed in the process. Or hell, just keep building up Goku versus Superman Death Battles at the end of every season, starting by grabbing the weaker forms of Goku and Superman from both sides so that way, both fans get to see their heroes win sometimes. Instead, we have Post-Crisis Superman, who has been shown to only be capable of withstanding fifteen supernova and putting him on the same level as a Super Saiyan 2, fighting... Super Saiyan 4 Goku. A blatant case of Fanon Discontinuity because GT isn't even viewed by many fans as an established part of the Dragon Ball storyline, and then to have him crushed so swiftly by one of the less powerful incarnations of Superman... it's a plain all-around Epic Fail, and not only that, it is plain disrespectful to the Dragon Ball Z franchise. It was so bad for this troper that I can't watch anything new they created past that, and it almost killed Superman for me. Even if they made another Death Battle where Goku wins, it wouldn't erase the massive stain they have on their reputation now. Death Battle is dead to me.

Rebuttal:

Let me get this out of the way first:

• I am a big DBZ fan

• I hate DBZ fanboys (there is a difference between “fan” and “fanboy”)

I see no evidence of “handwaving” or “loophole abuse” in the fight, and there was no “stat tweaking” as well, in fact, Death Battle actually downplayed Post-Crisis Superman, considering that they didn’t factor in Batman’s calculations of 17 billion kilometer speed and said that the 15 supernova force Superman took in Superman VS. The Elites may have been hyperbole, and didn’t factor in Post-Crisis Superman’s other feats. I have no real reason this change my idea on this, as you give me NO evidence to believe otherwise.

Also, in the fight, considering that they clearly stated that the original manga will hold more precedence, and that they will use all possible resources, including filler, movies, and even GT (for SSJ 4, before Battle of Gods made GT completely non-canon and no longer permissible as a research source), whining about how they “go back and forth between manga and anime” is ridiculous, especially since they used the manga to disprove mistranslations in the English dub of the anime.

“. First Goku goes up to Superman intending to kill him because he's afraid he's going to destroy the Earth, which is so out-of-character that it's just plain shocking and insulting to any Dragon Ball Z fans watching, bordering on Character Derailment, but then they end it with Superman actually killing everyone on the Earth just to stop Goku, proving that Goku was right after all.”

Considering how many DBZ movie villains are aliens of some sort, with 2 of the main story arcs having its main villain being a pure evil, extraterrestrial, super-powerful being (Frieza and Majin Buu), it is not really that much of a stretch at this point for him to believe that being an alien would naturally make you want to blow up the earth.

Also, Goku was treated as his TFS Abridged self, for a slight bit of comedy, and it didn’t affect the fight at all. But considering that you said “…not helped by Goku's TFS voice actor and the impishly childish demeanor he gives to Goku.”, you obviously may not like Dragon Ball Z Abridged (note that I LOVE DBZ Abridged).

Also, you said that SUPERMAN was the one who killed everyone just to stop Goku, conveniently ignoring the fact that the earth was destroyed only when the Dragon Fist and Infinite Mass Punch collided, making Goku equally to blame for the earth's destruction.

“If they were looking to make a Death Battle where Superman won, then they completely, utterly, epically failed on all levels.”

They showed Superman’s feats and abilities, and clearly showed why he would beat Goku in a fight, in one of the most beautifully animated fights I have ever seen, or ever will see. The only “Epic Fail” here is from the DBZ fanbase, due to the amount of whining and complaining that DBZ fanboys gave ScrewAttack, even to this day.

Also, we have Mr. Movie’s review on it:

“A crowning moment of awesome from the first second of the 30-ish minute running time to the last, Goku vs. Superman is without a doubt the crown jewel of Death Battle. Without spoiling the winner, some highlights include:

• A Beam-O-War between a Super Saiyan 4 boosted Kamehameha and Superman's heat/laser vision.

• Goku absorbing the energy of a Spirit Bomb

• A reference to DBZ Abridged and Superman's iconic "car over head" pose (from Action Comics #1)

• Goku uses the Kaio-Ken technique and all 4 levels of Super Saiyan

• The fight moving from Metropolis to DBZ-like mountains and then to space

• Great music throughout the fight

• Truly nerdy mathematics used to justify the winner

• A to-the-point yet in-depth recap of both fighters' abilities and histories that builds up to the battle quite nicely

• And more.

I could go on and on about how great it is, but I must bring up the harsh Fridge Horror: While fans of the winner celebrated with ticker-tape parades and fans of the loser cried new oceans into tubs of ice cream, I just simply watched it again, but then realized that the best is now behind us.

No match had ever been as requested, as hyped, as well produced, or as long and epic as Gv S, and it is a solid bet no future fight will even come close. Though the fight was really good, I truly feel that only by being a series finale would the Matchup To End All Matchups be done justice (doing so would also buy time to make the great but not perfect animation better). In its place, Master Chief vs. Samus Aran would have been a great Season 1 finale...

I also feared that a drop in fans would ensue, with the fans of the loser quitting due to rage and fans of the winner moving on to other things now that they're satisfied. I don't have the stats to prove or repress that fear, but I take comfort knowing that the current videos get enough views to justify making new ones, and that the quality of the videos is still decent.

The best is behind us, and maybe a year or two or three from now I will view the series finale of Death Battle. While it will no doubt be something truly special, in the end, nothing can top what is the show's best episode. However, even though I think no future fight will be as good, Goku vs. Superman will always be a fond memory to look back on.

Ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny indeed...”

BTW, here are some of Post-Crisis Superman’s feats:

Source 1: http://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/2a9uba/respect_superman/

Source 2: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/superman-respect-thread-1605861/

• Tanking the Megaddon Bomb, which can destroy half the galaxy

• Surviving the Source Wall explosion

• Fixing a hole in spacetime with Heat Vision

• Shattering the boundaries of spacetime to destroy Earth 2

with a single punch

• Flying at 22 billion times the speed of light

• Fighting demons in Valhalla for a millennium nonstop

• Holds a mini black hole in his hands

• Escapes the gravitational pull of a black hole. Twice.

• Casually busts a few planets by flying through them

• Lifts the Spectre in tandem with Wonder Woman. Here it is said that the Spectre weighs an eternity. This could either mean infinity, or the weight of the universe, which is essentially infinite.

• Flies through a red sun

• He has been punched into orbit and shrugged it off like it was nothing

• Superman survives 50 supernova force, that’s 500 octillion megatons. This is his greatest durability feat besides the Source Wall Explosion

• Survives blasts from the Void Hound, the Void Hound destroyed 10 Star Systems in one go

• The 9.4 billion km/h speed used in the Death Battle for Superman had him fighting Wonder Woman the entire time, making it both reaction and “combat speed”

“. The simplest option would have been to just grab the strongest form of Goku and Superman from each side, which would be Super Saiyan God Goku, who is strong enough to compete with a casual galaxy buster, and Pre-Crisis Silver Age Superman, who has been shown to have the power to withstand big bang explosions, and then have them duke it out, with the entire universe being destroyed in the process.”

If you believe that Super Saiyan God Goku VS. Pre-Crisis Superman ends in any other way than Pre-Crisis Superman winning, then you clearly are not one to talk about Death Battle being biased, and the objectivity of your debate skills are extremely questionable at best. Also, you complain about the Earth being destroyed, but the universe being destroyed is apparently much more okay with you. What is the word for that? Oh wait: Hypocrisy.

Also, about that “Casual Galaxy Buster” line, it’s a mistranslation. Here is what Herms form Kanzenshuu says about it:

“Short answer: no, it wasn't said anywhere in the actual movie. But in one of the previews, Kuririn says the Earth is in danger, and Piccolo responds by saying the entire galaxy (ginga in Japanese) is going to be wiped out. However, this dialogue does not appear in the movie itself, so take that as you will.

Whis does say at one point in the movie that if Beers is angered, then the entire solar system (taiyou-kei in Japanese) will be wiped out in no time flat. So to confuse matters, apparently one of the fansubs for the movie floating around mistranslates Whis' line to say that the galaxy will be wiped out, rather than the solar system. This is a rather egregious error, as taiyou-kei translates pretty directly into "solar system": taiyou=sun/solar, and kei=system. Mostly like the translator had a poor grasp of astronomy, and simply considered "solar system" and "galaxy" to be interchangeable terms.

That's what's said, at any rate. Whether or not Beerus actually could destroy a galaxy is a matter I'll leave to the learned experts.”

It’s quite suspicious that DBZ fanboys, like Why Not Now, are more than willing to use mistranslations to create dishonest arguments like this.

Pre-Crisis Superman feats:

Source 1: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/pre-crisis-superman-respect-thread-49439/

Source 2: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t447673.html

• PC Superman destroying a solar system with a sneeze

• Moving planets into orbit using only his breath

• Moving a huge chain of planets without even breaking a sweat

• Surviving the Big Bang itself. The event, as stated in to comic, to have nigh infinite amounts of gravity, mass, and pressure

• Flying at speeds high enough to time travel, enter hyperspace effortlessly

• PC Superman moves the entire Earth like a ping-pong ball

• PC Superman easily threw a neutron star several light years away. He claims that the star weighed trillions of tons and that it exerted a magnetic pull greater then dozens of Supernovas, but this didn’t affect him in the slightest.

• PC Superman can cross the universe in seconds and the multiverse in minutes

• A Supernova only dazes PC Superman for a micro second. He then finds himself in an unknown solar system and proceeds to drill his way to the center of a planet.

• Not even Flash was fast enough to punch PC Supes...YES...back in the day, Superman was MUCH faster than the Flash, who was already Massively FTL in the Pre-Crisis Era.

• PC Superman’s Fortress of Solitude contained an entire solar system he created by himself.

“Instead, we have Post-Crisis Superman, who has been shown to only be capable of withstanding fifteen supernova and putting him on the same level as a Super Saiyan 2, fighting... Super Saiyan 4 Goku.”

Here’s prove that Cell’s claim, which is what this statement is obviously based on, is dubious hyperbole (courtesy of OBD Wiki’s Nevermind):

“Well, this is probably nothing new. However, if you're relatively new to the vs community or the OBD and you come across someone saying that Cell is a solar system buster (as you probably will at some point in time), here's a quick and crushingly complete argument you can use to shut down the wank.

On God Movement's "Top 50 Strongest Anime/Manga Protagonists" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEbm56GtwjM) video, I came across a guy trying to argue that Sailor Moon was not stronger than Goku. Seeing as I'm a rather big Moonie, I wasn't gonna let this clearly wrong argument stand. I told him her feats, and he quickly conceded, showing that he was sensible. However, he tried to argue that Cell was a solar system buster, while still acknowledging Sailor Moon's superiority.

Here's his message to me (he was going to put it as a public comment so I see nothing wrong with putting it here):

"If you watch this video you'll realise that Cell's statement wasn't a hyperbole at all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccAYNX3bmCI but i guess if Sailor Moon can warp a galaxy back to life she is stronger than any DBZ/GT characters (except maybe end of GT Goku).

I had to send this as a message since there was an error with posting it as a comment."

My response:

"Actually, this doesn't prove a thing. It relies on three presumptions:

1. That power levels are linear.

2. That Cell actually had a high enough power level to destroy the solar system.

3. That the suggested power levels actually correlate with the objects presented.

We don't know Cell's power level as the last canon power level was Trunks' suppressed 5. We also don't know how many "units" of destructiveness get enhanced with every "1" gain of power level.

Also I don't know where Vegito got those power level numbers from, because 18,000 is the official level to blow up an Earth-sized planet, yet, the first canon planet buster was Frieza, who actually failed to destroy Namek in one shot in his final form at a power level of 60 million.

We know Cell is stronger than Frieza, but not by how much. Going from planet to solar system busting is like going from being able to run 10 mph to being able to run 1000 mph. We need more concrete evidence for this than someone being able to say "I can run 1000 mph!" but doesn't have feats to back it up.

And then there's Majin Buu, who in the manga destroyed "several hundred planets" in his reign of terror over time and his attack only blew up Earth. We know Buu is stronger than Cell, and never holds back unless he is in a fight, and only then it is to prolong his “game” of destruction. It follows that if Cell can solar system bust than Buu must be able to solar system bust as well, otherwise the entire manga is contradicted. If he could destroy solar systems, he wouldn't have been stuck on planet busting, especially given his character, which is essentially the purest form of Omnicidal Maniac.

All these together clearly show Cell's statement is dubious and shouldn't be used in debate.

As for Goku absorbing the Dragon Balls and becoming immortal, there's no evidence and that's nothing but fanwank. Sailor Moon is immortal as well. But if it were true, all she'd need to do is send Goku to some desolate place in time and the fight is over."

If you're ever up against someone claiming Cell's statement was true, feel free to use my argument and tailor it to your own needs.”

If anyone uses the guidebook as “proof”, here’s what Vegetto EX from Kanzenshuu says:

“First off, "approved by Toriyama" is a concept that gets tossed around by each side of any given argument to prop up their own agenda. Those in favor of [insert guide book here] say, "Well, he approved of it, so it's good!" while the opposing side says, "Well, he approved of it, but he's an idiot and didn't write it himself, so it doesn't count!" Furthermore, what does "approved" mean...? No-one's ever going to get an in-depth explanation of if he even looked at the book at all, never mind whether or not he personally sat there and poured over each and every word for minute differences in sentence structure (highly unlikely, by the way), the same way you're never going to get an explanation as to which members on which company's staff actually wrote some of the statements there. It's not the Japanese way, and they just don't care as much as you do.

There's literally nothing you can say to one another other than:

(1) Can we agree to use this? Yes/No? OK. (2) Can we agree to disagree on this? OK.

Otherwise, it's an endless cycle that just devolves into people tossing pseudo-science at each other wrapped up in childish insults.

And speaking of childish insults, please refrain from disparaging other specific communities. If you don't like a place, don't go there. Don't air out your dirty laundry here.”

BTW, Superman has survived the force of 50 supernovas (500 octillion megatons), an explosion with the force of half a galaxy (50 Peta Foe), survived blasts from the void hound, who destroyed 10 star systems in one go (from calculations, that’s 570.9 octillion megatons). I should also again mention the Source Wall Explosion, described as a “pan-dimensional breach”, making his durability possibly multiverse level.

BTW, a supernova = 1 Foe = 10^44 joules = 10 octillion megatons

Star System Busting = 5.709 Foe = 57.09^44 joules = 57.09 octillion megatons

“A blatant case of Fanon Discontinuity because GT isn't even viewed by many fans as an established part of the Dragon Ball storyline, and then to have him crushed so swiftly by one of the less powerful incarnations of Superman... it's a plain all-around Epic Fail, and not only that, it is plain disrespectful to the Dragon Ball Z franchise.”

Obviously, you never did any actual research on Superman, because saying that Post-Crisis Superman is weak is like saying the Joker is a perfectly sane individual. Post-Crisis Superman is only weaker in comparison to other versions of Superman, like All-Star Superman, or DC One Million Superman.

Also, I have to wonder about how much of this DMOS was influenced by butthurt and fanboyism when you say that one of the greatest, best animated, most satisfying Death Battles ever (at least, to non DBZ fanboys) is an “Epic Fail”.

Also, how does a character from a franchise losing in a non-canon fan made web animation somehow “disrespectful” to the franchise, as if Akira Toriyama would cry himself to sleep if Goku lost? By your logic, Mario losing to Sonic is “disrespectful” to the Mario franchise, Samus winning against Boba Fett is disrespectful to Star Wars, and Vegeta winning against Shadow is disrespectful to the Sonic franchise.

“It was so bad for this troper that I can't watch anything new they created past that, and it almost killed Superman for me. Even if they made another Death Battle where Goku wins, it wouldn't erase the massive stain they have on their reputation now. Death Battle is dead to me.”

Saying that “it almost killed Superman for me” Is bullshit. Since you lowballed Superman by saying that he can only survive 15 supernova force, it became obvious to me that you didn’t really care about Superman in the first place, already making you a hypocrit. Also, the only “massive reputation stain” is of the DBZ fanbase, due to their whining, bitching, moaning, and complaining about a web video made for entertainment, 2 years ago.

I love Death Battle, the results of its battles, and its cool animations. Death Battle, again, is made for entertainment, not catering to fanboys, and especially not for a bragging rights reward. I can just imagine that if Superman lost, you, and all the other DBZ fanboys, would be praising Death Battle to the high heavens. Anyway, it’s good that you stopped watching Death Battle, as it doesn’t need “fans” like you.

BTW, for the people under you: here are some extra rebuttals:

Combat Speed =/= Travel Speed

Rebuttal:

There are only 3 things a character needs to fight at a certain speed:

Travel Speed

Reaction Times/Reaction Speed (While characters with low travel speeds can have high reaction speeds, characters with high travel speed will have high reaction speed out of necessity)

Perception Speed (the ability to see opponents moving at similar speeds)

Lifting Strength =/= Striking Strength

Rebuttal:

Striking strength is determined by:

Force, which equals mass time acceleration. F=MA.

This means that striking strength is determined by:

Lifting Strength (the mass)

Speed (the acceleration)
SeptimusHeap
12:25:49 PM Mar 20th 2015
Oi. What is the point of this Wall of Text?
Tonathan100
10:56:03 AM Mar 21st 2015
I'm sorry about that. I was making a rebuttal to a DMOS. I am going to create a new one, organized much better, of course.
Servbot
Topic
11:46:13 AM Nov 23rd 2014
edited by 202.128.35.62
So the main page currently has this rule:

D. Not every weapon owned by the warriors in every canon will be used. Instead, only the ones they are commonly using (as seen with Rogue or Batman) or their best or most iconic weapons (e.g. Link and Cloud were equipped with their best armor and magic) will be used.

As I mentioned in Ask The Tropers, I don't believe that this sentence is very accurate in its current form.

First, it mentions weapons only, when the examples used aren't exclusively about weapons (Such as with Rogue)

Second, as shown in several episodes, when there are dozens of options and versions available for the characters, the hosts don't always go for the "best" period, going instead for the version that's recognizable to most people familiar with the characters. Example: Superman doesn't get his DC 1,000,000 version, Batman doesn't get his Bat-Armor, and Spidey doesn't get the Iron Spider-armors.

In fact, the specific example given is a good example where the fighters weren't given their best weapons, since while they got their best armor and accessories, it was specifically stated at the start of the episode that they'll be using the weapons Link and Cloud bring with them in the Fighting Games since they believe that those would be the weapons they're most comfortable with and to get around the dozens of options available to both characters (This meant, for example, that Link didn't get the Fierce Deity's Mask and Cloud didn't get the Ultima Materia).

I think it would be more accurate to change this line to something like this instead:

D. Not every weapon and power-set owned by the warriors in every canon will be used. Instead, only the ones they are commonly using (as seen with Batman) or their more iconic ones (as seen with Rogue, who was depicted with the Ms. Marvel powers she had during the 90s X-Men cartoon and the Marvel vs. Capcom games) will be used.

Thoughts?
KarlGrouchoMarx
11:49:37 AM Dec 1st 2014
Why not just elimate it completely?
Dinoyipi
Topic
07:25:03 AM Aug 20th 2014
edited by 96.249.251.95
I think this page is suffering from a bad case of self-fulfilling spoilers due to disproportionate lengths of character names. Might I suggest that the results be put in notes instead of spoilers?
Electricstar
Topic
07:40:10 AM Jun 23rd 2014
edited by 71.168.67.191
Mods please delete this post.
Mr.Movie
Topic
02:11:43 PM Mar 25th 2014
  • Is it just me, or do a lot of people feel uncomfortable about video game characters being on the show? I mean, how are you supposed to judge someone's skills when they are tied directly to an outside force? How do you determine a character's fighting style and their favorite strategies when it's the player who makes all the decisions?
Mr.Movie
Topic
02:11:08 PM Mar 25th 2014
  • I don't mean to seem like I'm injecting Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb into this discussion, but is anyone getting tired of how they will make it seem that the two combatants are evenly matched in the character rundowns, only to explain after the battle that the winner had some ability or skill that would have made the outcome obvious if you had known it from the start? If I had known Tails could move 10 tons, I would have picked him. They never made any special mention of his strength in the rundowns so I assumed it was ordinary (I assumed he was about as strong as a human his age and size), and my entire bet rode on Luigi overpowering Tails with his strength in close combat (they did, after all, show Luigi punching someone so far away they disappeared from sight).
    • Some other examples of the deciding factors being made apparent only after the battle include the infamous Peach vs. Zelda battle (in which the hosts explain that they took a move from a sports-centric spinoff game and gave Peach a kick that could explode a human head), the Goku vs. Superman battle (where it was only after the fight that they broke out the calculators to determine Superman was just in an entirely different class than his opponent), the Thor vs. Raiden battle (where it was only after the fight that the the true power of Thor and the Mjolnir hammer was revealed), the Mike Haggar vs. Zangief battle (where it was revealed that Zangief was much stronger, being capable of wrestling 1000+ pound bears which are far more dangerous and heavier than Haggar's sharks), and the Strider vs. Ryu battle (where after the fight they revealed that while the loser could cut through a human body with his sword, the winner could do the same with his bare hand).

megazilla
Topic
08:43:31 AM Jan 19th 2013
Should we add fanfic recs to fanmade death battles?
Thecommander236
01:37:28 AM Nov 6th 2013
I would say so. Maybe we should also have a recap page?
AkumaTh
05:44:20 PM Nov 7th 2014
I would love to see a Fanfic Recs here as well.
Electricstar
Topic
08:23:01 AM Oct 21st 2012
Should we add a character page for DB? Two separate folders, the hosts (wiz and boomstick), and the actual fighters. My reasoning is that many tropes apply to the fighters via a single episode and would be rather questionable and unorganised to put it on the main page. One example is regarding doomguys chainsaw that was never used in the actual fight.

Maybe we should put a warning sign at the top of the page saying not to put tropes applying to the fighters that was not mentioned or displayed in the episode, any tropes that still apply to them but are not shown should just be kept in their own page on this site... so should we give it a go?
Kagimizu
Topic
01:39:21 AM Sep 21st 2012
There has to be a Trope we can use for the unmitigated disappointment that was the Blanka vs. Pikachu "fight". Anticlimax maybe? There has to be some sort of trope for a piece of crap like that.... "fight". And I use the word loosely.
LordTyph
07:20:00 PM Sep 21st 2012
I thought the ending was kinda hillarious. If a bit expected in the terms of 'Pikachu wouldn't win the fight'.
CerotechOmega
05:04:54 PM Sep 22nd 2012
I didn't watch, but one of the points is that Pikachu is dependent on Ash for instructions. Is it me, or are they unaware of the fact that Pikachu has instigated rebellions against the villainous team of the day (usually Rocket) when isolated from Ash, especially in that one Unova episode?
Kagimizu
07:33:08 PM Sep 24th 2012
Who knows, but even in fights where they had the likes of Raiden versus Thor they had a better fight. There has to be a trope or something for that.
MrLange
10:04:20 PM Mar 26th 2013
Gee thanks.
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