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Shaoken
topic
03:22:34 PM Jan 15th 2012
edited by Shaoken
Deleting examples that have valid explanations;

  • Spot was established as female earlier,
  • The Holodeck in universe does not have that high a failure rate, but it doesn't provide drama if it always works.
  • There are two arguements against Lwazana, Natter is bad,
  • Deleting the whole thing about the injured Romulan; ordering a crewmember to do something they have a moral objection to is not a moral action, and goes out of character for Picard and Riker.
  • There are hints that Romulans and Klingons were 'close' sometime in the past (being stand ins for the communists) which is why they can give each other blood but Vulcans canít, and those healing methods refer to fixing what is still there; there are still taboos in the federation about actual cloning, and even then itís not quite as simple as going to a replicator and ordering litres of blood.
  • The Federation honours the treaty because it prevents a war, and the Romulans stick to it because not pursuing cloaking technology has left the Federation free to further anti-cloaking technology, which is good enough to render any large-scale incursion impossible.
  • ďThe Wounded.Ē The counter-arguments hold valid weight.
  • Measure of the man had WAY too much natter, but most of it provides enough counter examples to warrant removal.
  • The difference between the two situations is that in the former the Enterprise could save the civilisation without directly interfering with them. In the latter the world was going to be destroyed, and the only way to save the people would be direct interference (which goes against the Prime Directive).
  • Itís Q. You'd do the same in his shoes.
  • Like the tropers said; they stoped a civil war, and they couldnít have known it would eventually happen anyway.

Let's try and keep natter off the page, as well as bad examples. If you ahve a counter-point, just delete the example and justify it here.
halfstep
04:31:27 PM May 9th 2012
In reply to this:

Deleting the whole thing about the injured Romulan; ordering a crewmember to do something they have a moral objection to is not a moral action, and goes out of character for Picard and Riker.

That is oversimplifying the argument that you casually deleted greatly. First off, it's subjective as to whether ordering someone to commit something against their morals is immoral. Second, there do exist instances where Picard has said "this is a Starfleet vessel, some morals/beliefs I cannot allow to be exercised on this ship by people under my command." They are vanishingly few, but they do exist. Third, you missed the whole point of the statement regarding Worf's refusal, which may in fact unintentionally justify your action (since you missed it in real life, so it's conceivable that Riker may have missed it): Worf was not too subtly giving Riker _a way out_ of the situation. Just as a cop who knows for a fact that a criminal is innocent, but is sworn to detain criminals, "misplaces" a key to the handcuffs 2 inches from the criminal and turns the other way, or the doctor who knows what is behind the epidemic, but, being unable to tell the investigator directly what they want to know due to doctor/patient confidentiality, walks into the next room and begins loudly talking to himself so that the investigator in the next room can hear, Worf is clearly attempting to reconcile his honor, and follow Starfleet protocol, by blatantly telling Riker about the one way that everyone can get everything they want - "make me do it". Given that Picard and Riker have played the "let's do it the Klingon way to keep trouble down" game before, for far less benefit, it makes no sense to not respect Worf's beliefs now when there is no downside for anyone in doing this.

The actual deleted part in question is below. Also, could you please direct me to where I can inquire about the mass deletions of various pages: granted a fair part of it was natter, but a lot of what was deleted were legitimate examples: ST DS9 had some major wallbangers, but apparently, according to TV Tropes, it does not. Thanks.

  • In the episode "The Enemy," the Enterprise crew finds a Romulan soldier stranded on a desolate planet. He's badly injured and in need of a blood transfusion. After some experimentation, Dr. Crusher concludes that Worf is the only hope as a donor. But Worf refuses to set aside his bitterness towards Romulans by being a donor. He makes this clear to Picard. In turn, Picard assures Worf that he won't force him to be a donor, but adds that as captain, "I have to weigh the good of the many against the needs of the individual and try to balance them as realistically as possible.". If that were true, then the best thing to do for the good of the many is to tell Worf to give blood! The result: Picard doesn't order Worf to give blood, and so the Romulan soldier dies in Federation custody. This would surely have started a war between the Federation and the Romulans if it hadn't been for Geordi's dumb-luck discovery and recovery of another Romulan soldier on the planet surface. As another reviewer put this, "I must balance the needs of the many against the needs of one as realistically as possible? - which is why I will risk a horrific galactic war, rather than hurt Worf's feelings!". Compare this to the TOS episode "Balance of Terror," in which Kirk tells the similarly bigoted Stiles to "Leave any bigotry in your quarters. There's no room for it on the bridge!".
    • When watching this episode, you have to understand Worf to get the depth of this wall banger. Worf refuses to help the dying Romulan; his reason is that it's against everything he is as a Klingon. He also tells both Riker and Picard that he will give blood if he is ordered to because they are his superior officers. (Honorable Klingons almost always follow the orders of superior officers, unless they're trying for a Klingon Promotion). Note that Worf doesn't gloat over the dying Romulan and even tells him that he won't listen to him beg for his life. Worf is not simply putting his own hatred ahead of the Federation's needs; this was a case of Worf getting ensnared in technicalities of Klingon honor, and Picard failing to recognize and work around this. Remember, Worf never had to mention that Riker and Picard were his commanding officers: everyone involved knew that. So why bring it up? Well, if Picard or Riker understood Worf at all, then they should have read between the lines! When Worf was telling Riker and Picard about his feelings and how he would respond to a direct order, he was saying, "Look, I'm a Klingon. We don't assist our enemies of our own free will because even if we wanted to, or had good reason to, it would cause us great dishonor. But we Klingons have to do whatever our commanding officers tell us to, even if it would normally be considered dishonorable. Obedience to our COs takes priority over other measures of honor, and acts that would normally be considered dishonorable get a free pass if done at the behest of the CO. So if you want to avert this galactic war, I suggest that you force me to do it, because I will never do it of my own free will beyond telling you how to make me do it."
    • Then there are the biological facts: Romulans and Klingons don't have the same oxygen-transporting metalloprotein (hemoglobin in humans). Romulan blood is green per copper-based hemoglobin (which is actually hemocyanin as found in crabs and octopi, which raises a whole host of other issues, but let's not go there). Klingon blood is lilac in Star Trek VI and red everywhere else. There is a green-blooded Vulcan on the crew as a medical officer: she ought to be a better match to a Romulan than Worf, especially since there is almost no genetic difference between Vulcans and Romulans anyway. And this means that Dr. Crusher is incompetent at her job, since she's the one who thought that Worf was the only possible match.
    • All this ignores the bigger wall banger: the Federation, as Mary Sue Topia, has technology we can only dream of. Since they can heal bone breakages and cuts in seconds and construct artificial hearts, why can't they just clone the Romulan some blood?
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