Discussion VisualNovel / Sunrider

I think "edit war" implies that both sides edited it more than once, and I know I only edited it the once.

Anyhow. As far as I can tell, Sunrider is classified as a Real Robot Genre game because it is a Military Science Fiction game with robots. I will agree that Sunrider fits the first sentence of the Real Robot trope page to a T, but most of the rest clashes with it. For instance:

• "Unlike the Super Robot, real robots are typically mass produced units designed and built by governments and large corporations, rather than something designed and built by (or for) a single person — though the occasional Super Prototype or Ace Custom may be an exception."

While there are some mass-produced Ryders in the game, the focus is almost entirely on the unique (or effectively unique) Ryders of the protagonists, which are treated as essentially inseparable from their pilot. And the "something designed and built by/for a single person" thing applies in full force; Chigara personally designed and built two of the Ryders, and as mentioned the Ryders are all unique to their pilots.

• "Real robots...and other such ancillary issues."

Let it first be noted that this is the entire second paragraph, out of three describing the trope (plus a couple mentioning related tropes).

There is no explanation given for why giant robots are an effective way to fight. They just don't bother. This is all the more important, because legs are much less useful than engines in space. There is probably Applied Phlebotinum involved, but it's never explained in even the broadest strokes. The closest we get is a single forum post by a developer which gives a handwave about "ceremonial" reasons and how an ancient empire purposefully designed their machines to suck (I'm paraphrasing), both of which range from meaningless to Voodoo Shark-level depending on how one analyzes them. A single warship is capable of operating several Ryders indefinitely with minimal effort. The closest the game comes to addressing these issues is to assign a repair cost when a unit is damaged...which can be completely negated through use of an ability one can use in combat, which reduces how much I'm willing to credit them for it. (Also, Ryders and ships are treated essentially the same for repair costs.)

• "Of course, all of this won't stop an Ordinary Highschool Student with no one but a Ragtag Bunch of Misfits for support from Falling into the Cockpit and saving the day when the plot requires it, but it will make such a feat seem all the more impressive when it happens."

It's true that this means that improbable piloting alone doesn't disqualify a work from the Real Robot Genre...but I've never said that it did. And that last bit—the "being able to pilot a mecha is impressive" bit"—is completely absent.

And a final note. I'm not saying that Sunrider is "bad" for being a Super Robot Genre game. I'm simply saying that it's not focused on what it seems like the Real Robot Genre trope is focused on. If the trope page can be trusted, Real Robot Genre works are more than just works set in a military that contains giant robots; the robots and how they function are an important part of the story, the same way that (for instance) details of Luna City's economy and society are important to The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. Film/Moonraker, Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, Codename: Kids Next Door, and so on don't worry about such things, because they don't matter to the kind of story they're trying to tell. From what I've played, Sunrider doesn't feel like it's trying to tell a Real Robot Genre story—hell, it doesn't even feel like it's trying to tell a Military story (given how often Mildly Military behavior is ignored, and how little focus is given to any aspect of war but the battles—particularly compared to how much focus is given to the love-interest aspect).

P.S. If Sunrider does fit the definition due to being a game set in a military that includes Humongous Mecha...the Real Robot Genre trope description needs to be severely edited. The name could probably use work, too.

Real Robot Genre stories usually feature custom mechs for the protagonists, both to give them unique visual identity and to explain why they're beating the mass-produced ones. The average robot, in other words, is the mook mech you blow up through most of the game.

Similarly, most real robot stories don't bother explaining why they're doing it in giant mechs in anything but the liner notes. If anything, Sunrider is more realistic about it than the original Gundam, which explained that the three-dimensional movement offered by a mech was superior to a traditional fighter in a spaceborne environment, and then bowed to market pressures and put them in-atmosphere rather than in space, as originally conceived. And Gundam is very much an anomaly in this regard, with the vast majority of "real robot" fiction also not featuring real explanations for any of those things.

So no, using mechs does not constitute hard sci-fi, but the genre doesn't usually constitute it either.

Sunrider features all sorts of things that characterize the Real Robot Genre. It does not feature: giant monsters and Ro Beasts, bizarre physics-defying nonsense, over-the-top superheroics, etc.

Again, "real robot" does not mean "diamond hard sci-fi." Hell, if it did, then there'd be no "real robot" genre at all. Claiming that it is in the Super Robot Genre is ludicrous, akin to saying that every modern action movie must be a Western because it features gunfights instead of swordfights.

A Real Robot work is one in which Humongous Mecha are treated as legitimate pieces of military hardware rather than metallic superheroes. Physics... probably is out the door based on that premise alone. But it's anime. That's true whether they're humongous mecha, or fighter jets, or tanks, or what have you.

I haven't seen this so I cannot vouch for the anime itself but GWG's definition is overly narrow by a ridiculous margin.

...So now that we're in agreement that the gold dragon up there is just mistaken about what the actual terminology in play here is, can I put the example back up?

Well, considering the example as-written wasn't clear, had poor example indentation, and was in the wrong place... don't just replace it. Could you try writing up a new example?

Because I'm explicitly not claiming this is a Real Robot Genre show. I'm just saying that GWG's definition is overly narrow. But the existing writeup wasn't enough to convince me, either.

Fair enough about the indentation. When I wrote the old one, I was just putting something back where I found it. Is the current example enough?

Looks good to me.

I'd probably split the two, for convenience.

Remember to apply How to Split a Page in case you do.

Thanks!