Videogame Undertale Discussion

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ashlay
Topic
06:20:07 PM Feb 3rd 2016
edited by ashlay
Laconic.Undertale page isn't particularly laconic. Can we somehow merge these list of entries? Say for instance:

Kid Hero Eastern RPG Bullet Hell Puzzle Game where you decide: What Measure Is a Non-Human? Pacifist Run or Humans Are the Real Monsters Kill 'em All

pointing out all the same tropes, but it's 1 line instead of 4.
knowmenot101
Topic
12:16:36 PM Jan 24th 2016
Clean-up of the That One Boss page? Some of these don't seem to fit if we go strictly by the troper page definition.
daftinquisitor
Topic
12:45:54 PM Dec 21st 2015
I'm having trouble understanding what is being said in the first "Adult Fear" entry. Can someone that actually understands it try re-writing it to make it more clear?
billybobfred
Topic
03:07:03 PM Dec 20th 2015
Pulled from the Trivia subpage under Fan Nickname

  • "Undertail" is a common term for Rule 34 of the characters.

because this is actually the official term, as requested by Toby, to distinguish it from SFW art.

This should probably go somewhere, but I'm not sure where???
daftinquisitor
12:44:54 PM Dec 21st 2015
Add it back to the trivia page, and just make it known that it's an official tag for fanart. It's still trivia.
gamesaucer
Topic
04:54:48 AM Dec 18th 2015
edited by gamesaucer
Would the Monster Kid's constant tripping be considered a Chekhov's Gag? After all, it becomes plot-relevant in an unexpected way just before Hotland, when they trip on the rickety bridge and almost plummet to their death.

I'm just going to add it. If there are any objections, you know what to do.
Biblius
Topic
03:55:23 PM Nov 23rd 2015
Point of order, according to the wiki, "No Mercy" refers to when all the bosses are killed, but distinguishes it from the Genocide route:

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral_Route

Should the trope page be edited to comply with this?
JustaUsername
10:38:42 PM Nov 23rd 2015
edited by JustaUsername
We had this discussion a few times and we've basically decided No Mercy is an alternative name for Genocide.

It's a Broken Base which is the better name for the Kill 'em All route, so it's better to let people call it what they want. Otherwise this page will be plagued by edit wars!
billybobfred
03:51:09 PM Nov 25th 2015
It's called that because it's the ending you will get if you play the game like a regular RPG without touching the Mercy button, and then everyone confused "if you do X, Y will happen" with "you must do X for Y to happen".

I would support calling that ending "No Mercy" if never touching the Mercy button was actually required to get it, but it's not.
KEEP_IN
09:47:11 PM Nov 26th 2015
For the Genocide Route, you actually CAN do mercy (fleeing, in particular. not sure about sparing) and stay on the route, so I feel that "No Mercy" is just vague and very inaccurate. It really is a pet peeve of mine.

For those who don't like the word "genocide" for some reason I'd say call the route "Max LV", or really anything that isn't "no mercy"... but then again, I can't expect people to just pick up new terminology on the spot, lol. Ahhh.
KarjamP
12:01:36 AM Dec 2nd 2015
edited by KarjamP
This kind of debate is so heated, even caused a commented out note to be edited to support their own claims.

To stop edit wars, the note, itself was eventually changed into this:

"Note: The route for the worst ending, aka the "No Mercy" route, aka the "Genocide" Route, does NOT have an official name. Therefore, call it whatever you want. To avoid edit wars, please don't make edits that do nothing but change one term to the other. The wiki isn't the official source of information for the game."

It's true. The route doesn't really have an official name.

Besides, the wiki contradicts itself in that it calls the Genocide route the "No Mercy" route as well.

http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Genocide_Route
KEEP_IN
12:03:33 AM Dec 14th 2015
It's true that although "Genocide Route" is the most popular name, the route doesn't have an official name. Regardless, I just have a nitpick with the last sentence.

The wiki doesn't contradict itself on the name. The wiki calls it the Genocide Route, but says that that route is SOMETIMES called the "No Mercy Route". One of the rules on the wiki even says not to change the terminology agreed upon by the wikia's community, giving "Genocide Route" and "Photoshop Flowey" as examples of agreed-upon terminology. Also, any attempts to change "genocide route" to "no mercy route" on the wiki are usually quickly reverted back to "genocide route".
NaraNumas
10:19:14 PM Dec 28th 2015
Bumping this to call to attention that someone just went through and changed every mention of No Mercy to Genocide, including editing out the "Call it what you wish" note. Normally I'd be whatever, but it doesn't look like they asked anyone or started a conversation, so I'm unsure if this is something we should let sit
Aquillion
06:20:57 PM Dec 30th 2015
Only on two pages. I undid it for now. It's bad to revert-war over it, so we should probably discuss it some more if it keeps happening; but for now, we should stick to the status quo, and their changes created serious inconsistencies, since most subpages and the like still use No Mercy (and they'd entirely removed it from just a few pages.)

Anyway, at the bare minimum, I'll say this: No Mercy and Genocide refer to the same thing. Nobody actually uses No Mercy to refer to any of the neutral routes.

(My impression is that a small number of people started trying to use No Mercy to refer to one of the neutral routes after a dispute over it on one of the Undertale fan-wikis, since they wanted to stop people from using No Mercy at all. But it's a forced-meme sort of thing; a glance at eg. Youtube videos under that title shows that people use No Mercy to refer to the same thing as the Genocide route, and that we should therefore support both terms to an extent in order to avoid confusion.)
dan96kid1
Topic
03:19:19 PM Nov 23rd 2015
Folder A-F is not opening for me. Is anyone else having this issue?
dan96kid1
01:54:28 PM Nov 24th 2015
edited by dan96kid1
After some testing, Folder A-F opens in Firefox but not chrome. I thought a commented-out trope in the folder was what "broke" it for chrome. After giving the trope context and un-commenting it out, Folder A-F STILL won't open in chrome. When I used Chrome's dev tools to inspect the folder, the console reported:

Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'display' of main.js?rev=100:557
undefined
SkullySnot
Topic
02:12:23 PM Nov 19th 2015
Early on in the Snowdin area when Sans helps the protagonist hide from papyrus who is determined to catch a human, he has them hide behind what's described in-game as a "conveniently-shaped lamp". I'm sort of on the cusp whether this is a case of Lampshade Hanging due to the obvious setting, completed with a lamp, or if there's some other trope that deals with the situationally appropriate form of an object.
strawberryflavored
Topic
10:09:59 PM Nov 18th 2015
Anyone know why the A-F folder is showing up as empty? I tried to check if there was something wrong when editing the page, but I couldn't find anything. None of the other folders have this issue.
SeptimusHeap
01:49:30 AM Nov 19th 2015
It isn't empty for me.
Beed28
Topic
01:00:12 PM Nov 10th 2015
edited by Beed28
Should Omega Flowey be changed to Photoshop Flowey? That's what the Neutral Ending credits officially calls it.
JustaUsername
06:41:47 PM Nov 12th 2015
edited by JustaUsername
Well, if it is official, the name change would make sense but maybe we need more of a consensus (unless nobody responds)
billybobfred
09:19:10 AM Nov 14th 2015
edited by billybobfred
"Photoshop Flowey Battle Co-design" appears in the Neutral credits, except due to its formatting, it might actually be crediting the person with "Photoshop" and "Flowey Battle Co-design" separately. (NOTE: this was originally misquoted from memory as "Flowey Design", probably causing some confusion")

e: Screenshot for clarity.
billybobfred
05:46:07 AM Nov 28th 2015
edited by billybobfred
And if I recall correctly, Toby used the first name on twitter at some point, and that's where it came from. It's not like the worst route, where the fanbase had to pull something out of our ass because it was never given any remotely official name.

(Of course I can't find the tweet in question, because I don't know how to operate that dang web site.)
KarjamP
12:07:58 AM Dec 2nd 2015
I believe it's safe to say that he's not being credited simply for "Photoshop", and that he's not being credited simply for "Flowey design" (as that would imply he designed Flowey's normal form as well).

The name "Photoshop Flowey" comes from the the fact that interpreting the credit as being a single credit of "Photoshop Flowey Design" makes more sense in context.
billybobfred
07:04:35 PM Dec 16th 2015
@Karjam P you may want to look at the screenshot because it is formatted as

Photoshop
Flowey Battle Co-design

and thinking about that for a moment makes me think it's probably meant to be read the other way, since there's no good reason to put a line break in the middle of a name if the full name would fit just fine on one line (and it would fit on one line, if that's what toby had wanted to do)
TwilightVulpine
Topic
11:11:05 AM Nov 3rd 2015
edited by TwilightVulpine
Why do the mentions of the end of the No Mercy path say the Fallen Child uses the Real Knife on "you"? The Fallen Child themselves say they were going to destroy the world, and that is what they do. The player can still talk to the Fallen Child after that happens, and there is nothing that indicates the player is dead, but the blackness and wind sound indicates there is nothing left of the world..

I tried to add this and the mods told me to just Repair, Don't Respond, then I when I did that it was reversed. I understand there might be some different interpretations, which is why I added it instead of just changing at first. What then?
StongRadd
Topic
04:12:10 PM Nov 2nd 2015
Wouldn't it be more accurate to call it the Bad Time route? "Genocide" is apt but spoilery, but "No Mercy" can imply that you only kill every encounter that you happen across.
billybobfred
04:58:29 PM Nov 5th 2015
"Bad Time" is injokey, spoilery, and obtuse. Worse than both, imo.

"No Mercy" can imply "never used the Mercy button" as well as "killed literally everything", but the fact that only one of those choices is actually acknowledged by the game somewhat obviates that issue.

If you want something that accurately describes the path without spoiling anything, you could call it "Max LV" or just "the worst path". Current consensus is on "No Mercy", but discussions are a thing that we have here on this internet web site, so it could well change.
Wymar
06:51:14 PM Nov 5th 2015
edited by Wymar
I don't really see a consensus, just one person who gets really upset about the word "genocide" being used.

That's not saying I'm for using Genocide exclusively (although it's definitively superior to No Mercy). I'm just find the whole edit war... John, you tell them.
Potman
02:01:37 AM Nov 6th 2015
Genocide is infinitely better than No Mercy, but no one thinking that is willing to make big enough of a ruckus about it to actually challenge the "consensus". The only one legitimately upset is that one guy who disagrees.
JustaUsername
05:52:04 PM Nov 12th 2015
edited by JustaUsername
Does anyone know who that one guy is? Does anyone know if he's still watching this page?

If not, just Ctrl+F the "No Mercy" parts and replace them with Genocide on all the pages!
billybobfred
09:11:32 AM Nov 14th 2015
"That one guy" is, in fact, several people. If you think there's only one guy, you're not paying attention.

Please don't try to start edit wars. The path doesn't have an official name, and none of the unofficial names need to be reserved for something else, so there's no point trying to enforce one of them over the rest.
KEEP_IN
03:40:43 PM Nov 14th 2015
I personally don't see how "Genocide Route" would be spoilery, since it's exactly what's being done on that route. It's about as spoilery as the name "Pacifist Route"/"True Pacifist Route" in my opinion.

Additionally, "No Mercy" is, in my opinion, just an inaccurate descriptor. It implies that you "kill anyone who stumbles into your way", rather than "actively hunt down every monster (essentially committing a genocide)".
JustaUsername
11:52:06 PM Nov 17th 2015
It's a Broken Base, that's why the note for editing says both are valid and to put the label you prefer. (Heck, today I added the Broken Base about this on the YMMV).

Doing anything to provoke the broken base is going to result in this page getting an Edit War and it being locked like the Final Fantasy VII page.
Potman
Topic
04:48:00 AM Oct 19th 2015
The main page is getting pretty huge - maybe we should think about splitting it into folders sometime soon?
Berrenta
05:32:07 PM Oct 20th 2015
Yeah, we should. First we may need to figure out the best way to divide them all.
billybobfred
Topic
05:38:21 PM Oct 14th 2015
Pulled because we're nattering over what exactly the joke here is. Let's figure out where this really goes and put it back with just one bullet.

  • Blatant Lies: *ATK 1 DEF 1 *The easiest enemy. *Can only deal 1 damage. *Can't keep dodging forever. *Keep attacking.
    • On the other hand, all but the second thing are technically true...
      • Technically the damage thing is still true. He's just using bullshit time powers to hit you multiple times per attack.
UltramarineAlizarin
08:27:54 PM Oct 14th 2015
I wasn't involved in these edits, but I'd say the second asterisk's descriptor is the only part that's clearly a lie. Everything else is accurate or technically true.
TwilightVulpine
11:20:52 AM Nov 3rd 2015
edited by TwilightVulpine
The first asterisk is a lie too. Sans is technically weak, but he is not easy in any sense. Meanwhile Whimsun does not even hit you if you don't move and it can't hit you multiple times.

edit: I confused asterisks. The troper above is right.
Berrenta
Topic
03:30:24 PM Oct 12th 2015
As there's plenty of shenanigans involving dogs, does that qualify as a Running Gag? I'd rather ask first before I add it.
UltramarineAlizarin
08:23:49 PM Oct 14th 2015
I can see how the Annoying Dog (the little white one that seems to be Toby's avatar) might qualify as a Running Gag. It goes further than a Recurring Extra because it's actually acknowledged by other characters multiple times. I can't really think of any common threads in other dog-related events besides, well, dogs.
billybobfred
Topic
07:45:49 AM Oct 4th 2015
Has there been an actual discussion anywhere on whether to call the worst path "Genocide" or "No Mercy"? Because from where I'm standing, it looks like one person made a unilateral decision to change "No Mercy" to "Genocide", and then another person made a unilateral decision to undo that change.
Potman
09:05:59 AM Oct 4th 2015
None that I've heard. I just see people switching them around without consulting anyone else.

Personally I'm voting for genocide, because a) it's what everyone else is using, and b) it really pretty much is literally what you're doing on that route. It's not even very spoilerrific, contrary to what they claim - I mean, it's something you choose to do from the very start, so how can that be a spoiler?
MagBas
09:23:03 AM Oct 4th 2015
The own game names this path?
billybobfred
02:37:59 PM Oct 4th 2015
edited by billybobfred
If the game names the path somewhere in its files, we should use that. (unless it's like obviously a developer name like "route3bad") Otherwise, I don't really care what the consensus is, as long as there is a consensus.
billybobfred
04:50:24 PM Oct 12th 2015
Word on the street is that Toby doesn't like it being called "Genocide". I haven't seen a citation for this yet, nor an officially suggested alternative.
JustaUsername
11:49:20 PM Oct 13th 2015
Honestly, from what I've seen, Genocide means "KILL EVERYTHING" while No Mercy is linked to killing all the bosses and a few random encounters but not going far enough to reach the Genocide route.

I mean, that's what the wiki went for. http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral_Route
Canama
11:09:15 PM Oct 15th 2015
Almost literally everybody outside of TV Tropes calls it "Genocide". We should really ditch the "No Mercy" stuff, since "Genocide" is what most people will be familiar with.
JustaUsername
07:43:02 PM Oct 16th 2015
edited by JustaUsername
The only reason we use No Mercy is because some people think the label Genocide is too much of a Spoiler (heck, that's what it says on the Trivia page). But really, It Was His Sled at this point, so we might as well just use it.
billybobfred
04:53:43 PM Nov 5th 2015
Can we not take the route of overriding an existing consensus without discussion because we think it's too PC?

There's no need to reserve the name "No Mercy" for the path of not using the Mercy button. The game doesn't acknowledge that choice in any way; it's more like a Self-Imposed Challenge than an actual path.
Sullytofu
04:15:03 PM Nov 14th 2015
How is genocide too much of a spoiler? Any player that can put 2 and 2 together will realize that the game changes a decent bit between the no-kill and some-kill endings, so how will it change on an all-kill? Plus considering you are literally committing genocide by hand, I think it's an apt enough term.
Aquillion
06:14:30 PM Dec 30th 2015
In my experience, both terms are used equally, but it's clear No Mercy is used more frequently on T Vtropes, so please don't go through replacing it (or removing the warnings not to do so!) Earlier someone seems to have switched every one with the edit summary of "fixing some inconsistencies", which clearly isn't accurate (and it made things more inconsistent, because 'no mercy' is more frequently used here on other pages — and they were clumsy about it, leaving behind some bizarre things like "the Genocide route, aka. the Genocide route.")
manhandled
11:01:59 AM Jan 18th 2016
With the prevalence of "No Mercy" as a description for the Kill 'em All route, I assume that tropers held onto No Mercy first, and now they feel more inclined to go with that because it was used first, regardless of policy...
Potman
Topic
03:32:57 AM Oct 4th 2015
I keep seeing stuff about getting around the genocide ending by erasing all files, and I keep wondering, should this stuff be here at all? I mean, in many places it's made to sound like it was actually a part of the game, a real solution you could do to something that's meant to not have any solution at all, when really, it's just cheating. It's like going to an Elder Scrolls page and editing everything that has to do with Uriel Septim to say "You can bring him back with a console" and pretending like that's a part of the whole damn thing.

Sure, few games are as meta as Undertale, but I think this issue crosses the line and really has no part in anything.
SpectrumUK
Topic
01:52:48 PM Sep 28th 2015
I don't think "Absurdly Low Level Cap" really applies to this game.
TobiasDrake
02:38:39 PM Oct 1st 2015
It absolutely does not.
FoolsEditAccount
Topic
07:07:19 AM Jan 19th 2014
Would Let's Get Dangerous apply to Toriel?
SeptimusHeap
07:37:55 AM Jan 19th 2014
Why should it apply? Honest question
FoolsEditAccount
10:57:29 AM Jan 19th 2014
She's portrayed as kindly and nonthreatening up until the end, where she's revealed to be the most powerful combatant in the demo. She's not a minor or comic relief character, though, and she does act threatening in a few isolated instanced beforehand. That could be considered Foreshadowing, or it could disqualify her.
SeptimusHeap
11:15:55 AM Jan 19th 2014
There is another trope for that I think - might want to ask on Lost and Found.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Videogame.Undertale