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FoolsEditAccount
topic
05:42:56 AM Mar 4th 2012
I took this out:

I don't really think the team fits the dynamic of a Five-Man Band at all. Firstly, Erio doesn't have a very active role most of the time anyway, making him more akin to a Sixth Ranger. And Astra is not The Chick in the slightest, nor does Snowe fit the traditional hero role. The traditional Five-Man Band roles are very specific and limiting — each character has too much overlap between multiple roles to really qualify for just one.
Emmych
04:55:44 PM Mar 4th 2012
edited by Emmych
They don't fit the roles in the traditional sense, but they definitely fit them! Astra is the Chick in that she is indeed the heart of the group and the glue that keeps everyone together — I mean, if she wasn't around, Hiante and Erio would have buggered off a long time ago; maybe even Relenia, as well. She also prevents fights and keeps the peace - another key aspect of the Chick. Remember, just because a character is The Chick doesn't mean they have to fall into the sweet, demure character type! If we were going for that, Snowe would fit this trope more, but he's lacking too many other aspects (being the glue, keeping peace, everyone liking him, etc.) to fit it at all.

Snowe is the hero because he is a leader — if not in the group, than of his people. Sure, he is timid and shy and not a front-row class, but you can tell he has hints of that chivalrous, heroic prince archetype in him. He is also a very clear force of good against his parents, the Original King, and the demon inside of him. He always wants to do the right thing, even if he has a few What The Hell Hero moments.

And Erio's loyalties are never questioned, so he doesn't fit the Sixth Ranger trope. He's the Lancer, in my eyes, because he contests Snowe and is the last to learn to like and respect him (and even in the end, it is somewhat of a begrudging respect that doesn't mask his dislike). He is constantly snarking and wanting to do things his own way: traits that are indicative of the Lancer. Add on top that he has all these feels for Astra, and you have your classic Hero-Chick-Lancer love triangle (even if the only known Snowe X Astra thing is Snowe being mildly attracted to Astra). I realize that he's a passive member of the team and strikes off on his own a lot, but that only makes him more Lancer-like to Snowe!

Relenia is the big guy because she's your tank, and Hiante is the smart guy because he's wise and likes to read. To me, it's a clear five man bad, even if not in the archetypical sense.

I'm puttin' it back in; my reasoning is pretty clear.
FoolsEditAccount
05:58:46 PM Mar 4th 2012
edited by FoolsEditAccount
[I'm puttin' it back in; my reasoning is pretty clear.]

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that; we have to reach an agreement.

Your reasoning for Astra fulfilling the "glue" role is tenuous — she literally holds the team together, but only because Hiante and Erio are literally bound to serve her. She doesn't actively hold the team together using her own skills — at least, not more than anyone else does.

Snowe being a leader of his people is irrelevant to the actual trope. The Hero has to be the explicit leader of the group. Merely having leadership experience doesn't qualify a character for the position.

Hiante is a Genius Bruiser, and his knowledge is more background characterization than an actual skill. He is more akin to The Big Guy for most of the story. Relenia is the closest fit to the role you gave, I will give you that, but one could also say she fits the role of The Smart Guy in that she's the one who knows the most about the state of the temple and the Sepulcher in the early game, even if she doesn't actually know that much.

I'm confused by what you mean by never having a Face-Heel Turn = not a Sixth Ranger? Are you confusing it with the Sixth Column trope? The Sixth Ranger is explicitly on the heroes' side, but the difference between them and The Lancer is that the Lancer is often part of the main group. Erio is usually off doing his own thing since he's not well-suited to combat (or so he claims), and only supports from the sidelines when he does join the main group. The detachment from the main group is the defining trait of the Sixth Ranger, which is why I felt Erio fit that role better than The Lancer.

Anyway, the main problem here is that the characters don't fit neatly into the roles. They all share the roles and fulfill multiple ones. Astra may hold the group together, but she's also the most headstrong and dauntless — traits of The Hero — plus she's a powerful fighter, a trait of The Big Guy. Hiante is wise and soft-spoken, but a powerful bodyguard, again overlapping with The Big Guy. Erio, as you've said, can be interpreted as a Lancer, while I interpret him as more of a Sixth Ranger. The characters alternate between roles rather than assigning one to each, so trying to fit them into each role seems a bit like Square Peg Round Tropery.
Emmych
06:58:20 PM Mar 4th 2012
edited by Emmych
Sure, let's reach an agreement, then. (Also maybe you shoulda put it up for discussion before removing it...? Seems a little presumptuous to me. I won't take further action until we've heard from Ronove; I know for a fact she checks this page)

Astra's companions may be bound to her, but Hiante and Erio are both extremely fond of her. I'm 99% sure that Hiante mentions his fatherly affection in game, and Astra's memory is all about her companions breaking the rules so she can be happy. They're bound to not only by obligation, but also out of love. This is what I mean by the her being the glue that holds the party together — Hiante and Erio both back off of Snowe more than once because Astra requests it, they allow her to follow Snowe on his journey without attempting to stop her just because she wants to, etc. etc. etc. She also does major peace keeping — think of the scene when the party meets back up again in the floating castle: everyone's getting ready to argue, but she calms them all down. She also cheers everyone up when they're feeling down; more than once, she comforts Snowe and perks him up.

And, man, when I said "leader to his people", I wasn't referring to his position: I was referring to the fact he actually steps up and leads his people. As far as having to be the actual leader of the group goes, you're wrong. And I quote, from the trope's page:
  • The Hero does not HAVE to be The Leader, or the most intelligent. This is usually justified by him being the youngest, most inexperienced, and/or newest member of the team. Thus, his more senior teammates may quite reasonably see him as the Tag Along Kid or the Sixth Ranger, even if he's clearly the central protagonist to the audience. He may even be something of The Chick if he's a Mouthy Kid or The Fool. Don't worry - in time, he will reveal his great potential, eventually swaying friend and foe alike to his cause. Even if he needs significant growing up to reach that point.
Sounds pretty Snowe-like to me.

Relenia fits pretty nicely into the Class 2 Big Guy, if you ask me. She gets pretty angry when what she's trying to protect is threatened (the way to the Sepulcher, her child, the party). She's also a little older and wiser than the others, and pretty maternal, despite her young age. She also fits into the Sixth Ranger trope, now that I think on it: I mean, her first encounter with you is antagonistic, and she shows up waaaaay after everyone else has been introduced.

I might call Hiante the Big Guy, but I'm hesitant to because he's definitely not the strongest party member! He shows elements of being the big guy (the loyalty and what not), and the Genius Bruiser seems to fit nicely.

And I never said anything about a Face Heel Turn. Again, lemme pull a quote from the trope page:
  • Some series start out with a particular type of ensemble, with a certain number of characters and a defined role for each: a Power Trio, for example, or a Five-Man Band. Then, mid-season, a mysterious new character appears, fighting the protagonists and antagonists alike! After many misunderstandings, the new character is revealed to be a good guy, and joins the team.
This doesn't describe Erio in the slightest. From day one, you know he's on your side, even if he is a little amoral. If anyone shows any signs of Sixth Ranger-dom, I'd actually say it's the Demon in the Western Tower, when he helps you trounce the Original King for the first time! (Of course, he's quick to turn on you again, so that one doesn't really count) As for Lancer-like qualities, lemme quote a few more things from the Lancer's page:
  • The right-hand man and the Foil for The Hero. <- Erio is definitely a foil for Snowe: he can be selfish and probably wouldn't do a thing to save the island or the people of Sabine if Astra didn't wish it. And, while you can't look at "right-hand man" as "bff and friendly rivals with Snowe" here, you can look at it as "person the party depends on the get stuff done".
  • This is the member of the Five-Man Band who is most likely to not be a team player. He's the one who sneaks off on his own to advance the team's goals independently. <- Erio definitely goes off and does things his own way more than once. Also, proof that detachment is typical of a Lancer as well as the Sixth Ranger.

And true, while they don't fit neatly into the archetypical roles, they show enough traits of each individual role that it still fits pretty nicely. Remember, tropes can be flexible!

Thinking on it, though, I might edit it to look more like this:
Norphen
07:19:13 AM Mar 5th 2012
edited by Norphen
This page is starting to resemble a George Orwell novel.

"The community needs to come to a consensus?" Sounds more like YOU need to be convinced before anyone else is allowed to add stuff. What is this, Congress? One person gets to hold up progress? I'm fine with Emmych's reasoning for the Five Person Band thing and I think it's been established by others (including the Creator) that Love Triangle is not outside the realm of possibility and could at least go in YMMV. Now you're outvoted on both of these issues. It's one thing to disagree and remove a trope when something is blatantly wrong, but that's not what's happening here as these are subjective matters. No more filibustering please.
FoolsEditAccount
12:04:19 PM Mar 5th 2012
edited by FoolsEditAccount
Very well, I apologize. I suppose I am getting too serious about this. I thought this was normal protocol, but screw it, this place needs fewer rules anyway. And yes, I am outvoted at this point. Do whatever you like.
FoolsEditAccount
topic
05:30:35 PM Feb 29th 2012
I took this out, because I believe it to be inaccurate:

  • Love Triangle: It's implied that both Snowe and Erio have feelings for Astra. However, the romantic elements are generally underplayed.

Erio confronts Snowe about the possibility of him having romantic feelings for Astra in the Bonus Dungeon. Snowe denies this outright, but not in an embarrassed or transparently lying kind of way that would imply him being dishonest. This implies that his affection for Astra is purely platonic. If Hiante's affection is purely paternal, that would mean Erio is the only character who is implied to have romantic feelings for Astra. Thus, there is no triangle.
Norphen
05:44:07 PM Feb 29th 2012
I found Snowe's denial fairly unconvincing. I suppose the scene is more ambiguous than I had thought and maybe it needs to go to YMMV or something.
FoolsEditAccount
06:03:12 PM Feb 29th 2012
edited by FoolsEditAccount
Really? He doesn't hit any of the typical indicators or act like someone who's defensive/in denial at all. He acts flustered at first, but generally seems pretty calm and not very defensive. It also doesn't make sense that he would keep insisting that Erio loved her; if he wanted her himself, he would just be "oh, okay, that's good" when Erio made his first denial.
Nightgazer
09:25:30 PM Mar 3rd 2012
Word of God might disagree in this case. The description given with the last piece of concept art here seems to imply that the creator was at least thinking of having them hook up. Definitely a YMMV thing, though, since it's not clearly shown in-game.
FoolsEditAccount
06:34:55 AM Mar 4th 2012
Hm. Perhaps it's a writing error, then; if Ronove intended for Snowe to be interested in Astra, I would have expected her to use the typical neon indicators in that scene.
Ronove
05:02:19 PM Mar 4th 2012
edited by Ronove
Ronove (i.e. Word of God) should also point out that while the scene would be canon, it does not make or break a love triangle.

Though I am a little annoyed that you (foolseditaccount) assume if I wanted to make something obvious, I should use very obvious tropes. No one should make or break a scene on tropes alone. If people see a love triangle, then they can provide proof (like even though Snowe says he's not interested in Astra that way, then you have to ask WHY. For example: Snowe knows he has a demon in him that'll kill Astra given the chance. Would Snowe want to get lovey dovey with her? No. So he'll take the blow and say he's not interested so he WON'T get close to her). It's totally there if you don't think of the terms as black and white and expect me to adhere to specific tropes in certain manners. So instead of saying flat out it's not because YOU personally can't see it, you need to allow wiggle room for the YMMV opinions.
FoolsEditAccount
12:03:50 PM Mar 5th 2012
edited by FoolsEditAccount
Very well, I apologize. I suppose I am getting too serious about this. Do whatever you like.

Edit: Actually, the revised description is vague enough that it can go in the main section, I think.
FoolsEditAccount
topic
02:44:32 PM Feb 29th 2012
edited by FoolsEditAccount
I removed this:

  • Beyond the Impossible: This is a full-length RPG Maker game with a customized sprite template and a huge amount of original art. The actual completion of such an ambitious project is something that many in the RPG Maker community hold in almost mythic regard.

Though the effort of creating a full-length epic with custom graphics is an impressive feat, it is hardly in the realm of "beyond the impossible", as it has been accomplished multiple times by other developers. Though we should probably place this somewhere, perhaps the main description itself would be a better spot?
Norphen
03:24:37 PM Feb 29th 2012
edited by Norphen
I'm not especially attached to that trope being there, if it's gone oh well. But within the RPG Maker Community it's common knowledge that games with THIS level of custom artwork (the sprite template especially) inevitably get canceled by the creator. I'm not sure the list of examples is totally apt, A Blurred Line is VERY heavy on the RTP, Last Scenario and Master of the Wind both have some custom content but otherwise rely heavily on the RTP. The others I haven't played, I don't know. They're all LONG games to be sure, but the length in this case is less important than the custom work - in this case EVERY sprite was created from scratch, not even editing other people's work, from scratch. That's a big effing deal. But like I said, if the trope being on the page for that reason is going to cause a ruckus, it's not worth it.
FoolsEditAccount
05:27:43 PM Feb 29th 2012
Ah, I see. Yeah, pixel art is very difficult. And wow, every sprite is custom? That is some impressive dedication.

I do think it would cause a problem if we left it, since TV Tropes likes to remain objective. Sometimes. Maybe. I really don't know, I don't keep up to date with announcements and I refuse to touch the forums with a ten foot pole because that way lies madness.

Anyway, I suppose it is impressive, but I think a more appropriate place for it would be a footnote in the main description or something.
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