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Thecommander236
topic
05:13:13 PM Jan 6th 2013
What is a Constantine Curse and why was it on this page?
Gregzilla
topic
09:26:11 PM Apr 25th 2012
I mentioned it in the YMMV page, but want to know if this would fit into the page:

Insane Troll Logic: Mercer's philosophy is based on this according to some. He says that humanity is dying, but he rereleased the virus on purpose. He says that all of humanity deserves to suffer, but is directly opposed by someone who has a sizable amount of empathy, more than he himself. He says that all of humanity is corrupt, but he practically sought out human traffickers to prove this viewpoint and blamed humanity for people caring about living before concerning themselves with people who they might not even know. For these reasons, he decides to cause a Zombie Apocalypse to "force evolution" on the populace. If he had thought that through some more, maybe We Could Have Avoided All This.

What do you think? Just a thought.
illegalcheese
11:06:35 PM Apr 25th 2012
I agree with what you've written, but I foresee problems with it being accepted, as the trope would be a very harsh reflection of Mercer's intelligence, and people who like Mercer would yada yada, etc.

I say put it in, see what happens.
Gregzilla
12:57:47 AM Apr 26th 2012
Well, either that or putting it in Prototype 2. The other problem I had was that when you consider that, even without the original's intelligence, he still consumed a sizable amount of people. If one would go by the Web of Intrigue alone (which is not everyone by far), he took in about forty-six people with doctorates at a minimum, and took in many more civilians. Enough to gain a conscience bit by bit, and probably enough to realize just how wrong his viewpoint is if he just took a look at his accumulated memories.

So in summary, I'm not sure if this goes in Headscratchers, YMMV, or both or neither.
Zaptech
02:17:02 AM Apr 26th 2012
Mercer's also eaten hundreds of Blackwatch soldiers, including Randall himself.

Its up in the air if Mercer is even vaguely sane let alone reasonable. The ending to the first game has him outright say that he's got the minds of thousands of of men screaming in his head. I'm honestly convinced that between the fact that he isn't human and that he's been munching on Blackwatch and Gentek scientists, the largest collection of insanity and sociopathy, Mercer's mind is pretty much a twisted mess of inhuman insanity.
Gregzilla
02:26:20 AM Apr 26th 2012
edited by Gregzilla
It's outright stated, yes, but it is also heavily implied that those minds gave him his conscience. For all the crazed ramblings, there's also the fact that he is more empathetic with hundreds of minds than the original Dr. Alex J. Mercer was with one mind. Well, until the sequel of course.

Still, if he isn't reasonable or sane, as you say, does that make Insane Troll Logic less viable? It's right there in the name.
Zaptech
09:13:57 PM Apr 26th 2012
By its nature, Insane Troll Logic is completely nonsensical logic. Its not simply a mistake in judgment or a fallacious conclusion, this is logic that is completely, blatantly insane. If Mercer had reasons for doing what he did that make even a vague amount of sense, then he simply suffers from reaching a mistaken conclusion, not Insane Troll Logic.
Gregzilla
10:06:04 PM Apr 26th 2012
So, in that case, it is not Insane Troll Logic, but would it be acceptable in Headscratchers? I do not know the protocol for Headscratchers. I normally use main pages.
Zaptech
12:01:51 AM Apr 27th 2012
Headscratchers would work. The only real protocol for Fridge Logic entries on Headscratchers is that you shouldn't use it to whine or complain. (if you need to whine about a work, there's the Review section)
Gregzilla
09:53:41 AM Apr 27th 2012
Alright, that's up. I hope it doesn't seem like whining. I tried to make a distinct reason for each of the issues.
illegalcheese
12:45:16 PM Apr 27th 2012
I know Insane Troll Logic is a step above (below?) simple fallacies or mistakes, but Mercer seems to be making one in each step of his thought process. Does that count?
Gregzilla
01:06:17 PM Apr 27th 2012
edited by Gregzilla
I'm not sure. Zaptech, what do you think about that part?
Zaptech
11:57:03 PM Apr 27th 2012
edited by Zaptech
Again, flawed logic doesn't count as insane troll logic. ITL is "Restauraunt worker, therefore cheese. Cheese, therefore three. Three, therefore COMMUNIST." Its logic so insane that its virtually a parody of fallacious logic, and it says it right there on the description of the trope.
Gregzilla
12:48:13 AM Apr 28th 2012
Okay, then no is no. Thanks for the help.
Thecommander236
10:58:24 AM May 19th 2012
I'll be agreeing with Zaptech here. Flawed logic can also come from a mistake in judgment or analysis. Like most of Freud's views and incorrect conclusions taken from studies.
Liangnui
topic
12:39:14 PM Apr 25th 2012
Not as You Know Them seems to be a pretty accurate trope to describe Alex's characterization in P2. To add or not to add?
Gregzilla
12:52:17 PM Apr 25th 2012
I would, but they explain it (though IMO poorly at best) in The Anchor. So sadly, no, not quite. It's just not adequately explained. More All There in the Manual.
Liangnui
01:00:09 PM Apr 25th 2012
Why not in YMMV, then? It may not be a true YMMV trope (by its indexing), but there are a lot of people who don't think it was enough of a reason for the complete 180. Because character derailment—near as I can tell, anyway—may or may not be explained by the creator. Doesn't mean it's not derailment.
Gregzilla
01:10:20 PM Apr 25th 2012
Believe me, I do think it was Character Derailment. But I don't know how to make a YMMV page.
Liangnui
01:13:42 PM Apr 25th 2012
P2 already has a YMMV page, though...

Or do you mean converting the trope to YMMV?
Gregzilla
01:20:02 PM Apr 25th 2012
Huh. So it does. Sorry, didn't see it there.
Liangnui
01:23:05 PM Apr 25th 2012
So I guess it goes back to "to add or not to add, that is the question."
Gregzilla
01:31:37 PM Apr 25th 2012
I think not to add, but adding Character Derailment to YMMV. That's just me though. They do DEVELOP it. Just poorly.
Zaptech
02:03:23 PM Apr 25th 2012
Guys. Read the Character Derailment page. Its got this nice, big, bold note at the top. Hard to miss.
illegalcheese
02:34:21 PM Apr 25th 2012
edited by illegalcheese
I would definitely vote for Not as You Know Them. I'm not particularly cynical, but I wouldn't put it past Radical to derail one character to make another look better. They try and justify it with the comics, which makes it sting less than out and out character assassination, but I think it counts nonetheless. Certainly as a YMMV trope.

edit: The reason I wouldn't put it past them is because it's a videogame based on maximum catharsis, plot secondary. They probably figure, and I would agree with them, that the powers and gameplay matter more than how they treat the characters. Thus, less aversion to Character Derailment. QED.

That's my opinion, anyway.
Zaptech
03:15:41 PM Apr 25th 2012
edited by Zaptech
Not as You Know Them fits best, I think.
coolman229
09:19:54 PM Aug 5th 2012
I agree. Not as You Know Them fits Mercer. He changes from a conflicted Anti-Hero in Prototype to a all out villain in Prototype 2. It's a complete reversal of his character.
Gregzilla
topic
11:35:40 AM Apr 25th 2012
Should this page be merged with Prototype? At least Alex appears in both, and the premises are close enough and the tropes limited enough that it seems plausible to make each of the games a sub-section on the same page.

Just an idea.
illegalcheese
02:27:38 PM Apr 25th 2012
Bad idea, at this point. Look how much work is on this page already; trying to merge this with another page, which is already very large, is a recipe for disaster.
JAF1970
topic
12:07:37 PM Mar 20th 2012
SPOILER. Heller and his squad head into the Red Zone and are quickly taken down, with Heller being the last man alive. He comes to face to face with Mercer, who taunts him before infecting him with the virus. Heller is transported to the Yellow Zone (Quarantine) for testing at Gentek before escaping when the situation gets hot (literally). His escape leads to an uneasy alliance with Mercer, who is doing his best to convince Heller it isnít him that Heller should be after, but Gentek and Blackwatch.
illegalcheese
01:42:37 PM Apr 24th 2012
edited by illegalcheese
Is there a point to this?

Edit: Wait, how'd you get that info a month before the game came out?
DarkGidora
04:28:55 PM Apr 24th 2012
There were previews showing off the beginning of the game, including the scene he was talking about.
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