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ashlay
topic
07:59:37 PM Sep 9th 2014
bigbossbalrog wants to set it up so the MGSV page has two separate sections with their own description headers. I reverted for the moment so this could be discussed.

So: Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are separate games released at separate times, so it may be quite worthwhile to separate the two. However, I also know having multiple headers is generally not How to Create a Works Page, and people decided last year to merge two original GZ and PP pages. How do people feel now? Do we want to separate the works into their own pages / halves of the page now?
SeptimusHeap
moderator
01:47:17 AM Sep 10th 2014
I've never liked such soft split pages and would like a hard split, but that's just me.
Shaoken
04:21:02 AM Sep 10th 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
Well at the time we split the two games were one just with different release dates, and we kept them on the same page for the same reason why Dead Rising 2, Case Zero and Case West are all on the same page despite all of them being separate standalone releases, or how Kill Bill is two film releases but kept on the same page. They aren't separate works; they are one big work spread out over multiple releases.

I would hold off any decision until The Phantom Pain actually gets released and we see how the two go together. No sense doing any sort of split only for it to turn out that Ground Zeroes is bundled with the final release.
Larkmarn
12:44:52 PM Sep 10th 2014
Yeah, way I see it, MGS 2 isn't split between the Tanker and the Big Shell portions. If we need to split, either due to size or the works being wildly different, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
illegalcheese
11:48:57 PM Sep 10th 2014
But the Tanker and Big Shell portions weren't sold or marketed separately. (Case Zero and Case West are similar to Ground Zeroes, but they were released very closely to the main game and had less content than GZ, which makes the issue murkier.)
Shaoken
12:03:42 AM Sep 11th 2014
It doesn't matter if Tank and Big Shell weren't sold separately because even if they were we still would have put them under the same page for the exact same reason why both parts of Kill Bill are on the same page, or both parts of Harry Potter and the Deathly Harrows are on the same page. They aren't separate works, they are the same work in multiple parts.

And at this point we don't even know when The Phantom Pain will come out, let alone if it will be entirely separate or if they will bundle Ground Zeroes in it for the people who waited to get them both at the same time.

As for Case Zero and Case West, both are 2 hours each and together had comparable replay value to Ground Zeroes, making it less murky.
Larkmarn
06:53:44 AM Sep 11th 2014
Not to mention, 90% of the Tanker chapter was released separately. Just sayin'.
AHI-3000
topic
11:42:18 AM Sep 4th 2014
Should the title of this article just be Metal Gear Solid V? This page covers both games in this duology, I don't know why it's just named after the second one though.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
12:12:40 PM Sep 4th 2014
It was discussed here.
theenglishman
topic
08:38:19 PM Mar 13th 2014
Poll: now that Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are in the same page, should we split the tropes into three folders? (General / GZ / PP)
Speedball
09:10:46 PM Mar 13th 2014
It's fine as it is now, but maybe we'll do that later as it warrants it.
Gregzilla
08:02:16 PM Mar 18th 2014
I'm pretty sure we should do it now. We have information for one game and preview information for the next in the same jumbled mess. Can someone do so?
theenglishman
08:12:35 AM Mar 22nd 2014
Done! =D
SilverWings
topic
07:16:09 AM Jan 15th 2014
Where are we supposed to talk about the DLC involving Raiden and the Snatchers from Snatcher?
Shaoken
03:48:46 PM Jan 24th 2014
It can go on the page normally. When the tropes get separated between the two chapters it should go in the Ground Zeroes section.
SquigPie
01:07:06 AM Feb 3rd 2014
So, when should we make separate folders? Might as well get it done now.
Shaoken
09:36:27 PM Feb 4th 2014
Well if the rumours about what Game Informer will report on is true, Ground Zeroes clocks in at....2 hours.

....if that is true then there is not a whole lot of point in making folders.
SquigPie
02:07:33 PM Mar 16th 2014
Yeah, and so does Portal, yet that one has a pretty large page.
SquigPie
topic
05:55:44 AM Nov 5th 2013
edited by 83.94.237.134
So, it was just recently announced that they'll be released seperately (though they're still considered two halves of MGSV).

Personally I still think we should keep a single page, but perhaps give each game its own folder along with a shared one.

In either case, I say keep it one page for now, then we'll see once we get more information/GZ is released.
Shaoken
02:35:11 AM Nov 11th 2013
It'll stay one page due to policy. It doesn't matter that it's a multi-part release, since neither Ground Zeroes nor Phantom Pain are standalone works. The same reason why Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1 and 2 share a page applies here; they are intended to be taken as one work split into two parts, not two works in a series of works ala Star Wars.
illegalcheese
05:12:42 PM Nov 24th 2013
I don't really advocate splitting the page, but I would like to point out that it might be a bit presumptuous to categorically state that the games won't merit separate pages in the future. At what point do we draw the line between "direct sequel" and "two-part installment"? Do we have enough info to confirm that they won't be able to stand as independent works at this point? For the record, the evidence suggests to me that it will be of the "two-part installment" type, but I'm not 100% confident in that assessment with only the prerelease info available, and I'm prepared to go back on that if new info presents itself.
SquigPie
05:33:01 AM Dec 1st 2013
edited by 84.238.52.28
Shouldn't we rename the page Metal Gear Solid V? Since it refers to both Ground Zeroes and The Phantom Pain?
Shaoken
11:15:46 PM Dec 16th 2013
No, because the name of the combined product is "Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain." Just like how Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater was two chapters with only one being called Snake Eater, but we don't cut out the last part.
Bongobob
05:21:17 AM Dec 23rd 2013
edited by 62.44.134.23
Not anymore, they aren't.

Back when they were supposed to be released together their collective name was "MGSV: The Phantom Pain". But now the prologue is refered to as "MGSV: Ground Zeroes" and the main part "MGSV: The Phantom Pain"

It would make sense to edit the title to just be Metal Gear Solid V. Just to avoid confusion.
TylerL320
10:43:14 PM Dec 29th 2013
What Bongobob said. Should be retitled to just be Metal Gear Solid V.
SquigPie
08:20:13 AM Jan 5th 2014
Currently you'd think by the title of this page that it only refers to the main portion of the game. I also vote for a retitlement to Metal Gear Solid V
Shaoken
03:47:19 PM Jan 24th 2014
I reiterate my point about Metal Gear Solid 3; if the two chapters were released separately we would still be calling it Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater because that is the name given to the whole package. I vote against a rename; Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes currently redirects to this page, and the opening paragraph makes it clear it refers to both parts.
TylerL320
05:23:25 AM Jan 30th 2014
Except Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain isn't the name of the whole package. The whole thing is called Metal Gear Solid V, just split into two parts.
Shaoken
10:35:52 PM Jan 31st 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
Except there is no actual proof of that statement. When announced, both parts were included in the main trailer under Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. We have no information to support the claim that the whole thing is just Metal Gear Solid V with no subtitle, the whole thing not having a subtitle would put it at odds with every main-game entry since 1 having a subtitle, etc. etc. etc.

Unless someone can actually find an actual announcement by either Hideo or Konami that the whole package is just Metal Gear Solid V sans subtitle then we have nothing to base any decision off of.

EDIT: And if the Game Informer article is true, then Ground Zeroes can be completed in two hours, so the page as it is will be largely Phantom Pain anyway.
KingClark
11:22:30 PM Mar 8th 2014
I've actually heard accounts that the game can last as long as your play-style goes - one guy cleared the story in 6 hours, and another guy cleared it in 8. You have to bear in mind that the 2 hour playthrough only completed 8-10% of the content found within the campaign.
Shaoken
11:15:08 PM Mar 11th 2014
Well, we'll have to wait a week on that one. But given that the Ground Zeroes page is already a redirect to here, how short Ground Zeroes is to the scheduled length of Phantom Pain and the existing precedent set by Dead Rising 2 prologues and epilogues go on the same page as the main entry, so we keep the page name as it is. But those are just my two cents.
Larkmarn
05:54:06 AM Mar 12th 2014
Honestly reminds me of the Tanker vs. Big Shell of MGS 2, except split across two releases.
ChrisDV
02:09:48 PM Mar 20th 2014
edited by 109.148.43.120
The page should be retitled to omit Phantom Pain since they are separate releases. It's irrelevant how long one is to in comparison to the other, the full title of the prologue isn't Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain: Ground Zeroes, it's simply Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes. If the game was a single release, fair enough - but it's two releases with distinct names.

Unless we're creating a separate page for Ground Zeroes, the page should be titled as simply Metal Gear Solid V.
Shaoken
03:07:04 AM Mar 26th 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
It doesn't matter that they are separate releases, they count as one work, the same way we don't have a Dead Rising Case Zero and Dead Rising Case West page, just a Dead Rising 2 page. And the name of the whole package is Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain. The trailers for that include scenes from both games, and it's most probable that the main game release will include Ground Zeroes with it.

So I reiterate my point about Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater; two parts, one called Virtious Mission one called Snake Eater. Yet we keep the Snake Eater subtitle for the whole game.

For the record, the Ground Zeroes page is a permanent redirect to this one.
ChrisDV
02:54:39 PM Mar 30th 2014
edited by 31.48.64.80
Because the full game is called Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. It's not two distinct releases, whereas Metal Gear Solid V is.

The actual packaging for the game refers to Ground Zeroes as (And this is a direct quote) "The first part of the Metal Gear Solid V experience."

Note the wording - "Metal Gear Solid V experience" & not "Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain experience" - which dismisses your insistence that the name of the full package is Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. The Phantom Pain trailers included scenes from Ground Zeroes because it was going to be one release at the time the trailer was made.

There is no evidence that Ground Zeroes will be included with The Phantom Pain upon that game's release, and it's more probable that it won't since Ground Zeroes has been released as it's own full fledged product. This is not a situation where Ground Zeroes was bundled with another game, like the Metal Gear Solid 2 demo being bundled with Zone of the Enders.

The page should be renamed Metal Gear Solid V as it is relating to two distinct releases bearing that name but with different subtitles. The Dead Rising 2 example you keep bringing up is irrelevant on the grounds that both DLC games are not available to everyone who played the main game, which therefore means they are not required - further supporting this, is that Dead Rising 2 gives you a complete narrative.

Reading the discussion, you are literally the only one saying the page should be titled Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain.
Bongobob
07:00:50 AM Apr 2nd 2014
I think we should vote or something, I don't really know how to edit page titles.
Shaoken
03:21:53 AM Apr 13th 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
You can't edit page titles. You'd have to create an entirely new page, move everything over there, then put a redirect from this page to the new page. And if we get to the release and GZ is included in the package then we've wasted bandwidth on a guess.

Not to mention there is no reason to rename the page title; Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes is already a redirect to this page (which I ran past Ask The Tropers first), and the opening paragraphs make it clear this covers GZ and PP. Nobody is going to get confused as to what this page is covering.

@ Chris DV "There is no evidence that Ground Zeroes will be included with The Phantom Pain upon that game's release"

There is no evidence that it won't be, and being that it's the prologue and absolutely vital to understanding the premise of the main plot it's just as likely to be in it.

Also, Larkmarn's post is in support of keeping the status quo, so "you are literally the only one" is simply not true.
Shaoken
topic
01:58:03 AM Jun 20th 2013
I know it's exciting, but please try to keep speculation to a minimum and cite things in the edit reasons. Trailers come lacking in context and Trailers Always Lie, please keep these things in mind when adding new tropes.
Shaoken
topic
05:32:13 PM Apr 26th 2013
I've started a short-term project thread to merge this page with Ground Zeroes here. If I don't hear anything from anyone in two weeks I'm going to go ahead and merge the two pages. If someone does raise an objection in the thread we'll keep going until a concensses is reached.
Shaoken
12:08:18 AM Jun 14th 2013
According to the offical Kojima Productions podcast KP Alert episode 3 Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are the same release, so with Word Of God confirmation I'm merging the pages now and putting Ground Zeroes on the cutlist.
ssfsx17
06:17:45 AM Jun 14th 2013
I fully support this decision.
ashlay
06:25:11 AM Jun 14th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
I listened to that podcast, they just said the "it's the prologue" thing again, which was already clarified as not confirming if the two sections were going to be released as a single work. Games Radar even posted a clarification after that Examiner story that distribution methods still weren't decided for these two things.
Shaoken
06:35:40 AM Jun 14th 2013
The only time distribution methods were brought up was by non-Konami news sites speculating as to wether or not they'd be seperate releases. Come back when you have the actual makers of the game making a statement, because as it stands you're arguing that when they say "they're two parts of the same game" they really mean "we're releasing the one we've stopped refering to since the reveal seperately."
ashlay
09:13:18 AM Jun 14th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
Okay, so if I'm understanding you right, the actual point of this merging is that since they're the same story, they should be listed together?

If we don't care that Ground Zeroes could be released considerably earlier than the "main game", what's the point of even keeping the seperate folders then? I think I'm going to just merge the whole thing.
Shaoken
04:49:23 PM Jun 14th 2013
Fair enough.

Multi-part releases don't get seperated if they're all the one story, hence why pages like The Hobbit is just one page with the tropes organised by movie. Granted, that's more done for length.
ashlay
10:31:28 AM Jun 15th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
What Could Have Been: The prologue portion, Ground Zeroes, was originally supposed to be its own release. However, the final product will apparently package Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain together.

Apparently need to work this out too. Okay, per the podcast source (~min 28): "It's different pieces, it's definitely separate pieces... we know you want to know more about formats, but we'll just have to go to the good old 'stay tuned' for now."

So there's no confirmation on distribution methods yet. For all we know, they are still Divided for Publication. There is a reason only the Examiner has reported on this, as opposed to any other news sites. None of this was new info, and none of it confirmed how these portions will be released. Kojima himself just gave an interview yesterday where he said explicitly "We can't talk about how we're going to release it because we still haven't decided yet." So let's just hold off on this entry and similar speculation for now.
SquigPie
topic
02:11:41 PM Mar 28th 2013
edited by SquigPie
This page should be fused with GZ, they're both different parts of MGSV, like the Tanker Chapter and Big Shell in 2. No reason for separate articles.
Magitek111
03:40:37 PM Mar 29th 2013
http://uk.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406157

Ground Zeroes is being released seperately.
ssfsx17
07:01:56 AM Mar 30th 2013
edited by ssfsx17
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/84h9k6/metal-gear-solid-v--the-phantom-pain-kojima-interview

Nothing is set in stone for the distribution of Ground Zeroes or The Phantom Pain - it could be done in Gran Turismo 5 style (prologue and then full game), as two separate releases, or some other way. The only thing that is certain is that it will be done on Hideo Kojima time, sorta like Valve time.
ZeronoKamen
09:22:01 AM Apr 1st 2013
Can we just fuse the pages and keep the trope articles kind of separate, for example:

Tropes appearing in Ground Zeroes:

Tropes appearing in The Phantom Pain:

The whole 'is it two games or is it one big game?!' thing is rather confusing but in either case Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are two parts of a bigger game, regardless of whether they come in two different boxes or not, and I feel this would be the best way to cover ourselves in the face of upcoming developments.
SquigPie
12:14:50 PM Apr 1st 2013
edited by SquigPie
Agreed. Considering that they're "two halves of the same package" that would make the most sense.

So, who's up for it? I tried, but I made a mess of things.
ZeronoKamen
02:40:07 PM Apr 1st 2013
I myself would try but I'd probably also mess it up.

Any takers? Any competent takers?
ssfsx17
05:25:04 PM Apr 1st 2013
Extra-agreed

I might do it... this Saturday... if War frame or Dead Island don't suck me into Steam land first
illegalcheese
01:25:25 PM Apr 8th 2013
Maybe it'd be better to wait until the game is out? Or at least until we have some real info on the structure and content of the games? Making sweeping changes to work pages based on hearsay and speculation is not sound editing procedure.

Also, if two works are released separately in a series where each installment is treated as a separate work, by definition and by the standards of this wiki they are separate works. Combining two of them when the rest are organized separately makes no sense.
SquigPie
04:25:36 AM Apr 11th 2013
They're both Metal Gear Solid V. And Kojima says that they're both two halves of the same game. They're not treated as separate works then. Are they?
ssfsx17
07:19:02 AM Apr 11th 2013
Disagreed with illegalcheese, agreed with Squig Pie.
ssfsx17
07:24:20 AM Apr 11th 2013
Also, a question for illegalcheese: do you think that Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue should have separate pages? Or that Gran Turismo 5 Prologue and the Grand Turismo 5 release should have separate pages?
illegalcheese
08:51:45 PM Apr 11th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
@ssfsx17: Pokemon Red and Blue have significant overlap in gameplay, development, and writing, so no I do not believe they should have separate pages. MGSGZ and MGSV do not seem to have overlapping content.

I don't know the specifics of Gran Turismo 5's prologue and Grand Turismo 5's proper release, or of the series in general, but if they each have distinct content to warrant individual release (I would posit 5-8 hours minimum gameplay), then yes, I would advise splitting the two.

Of course, we would also take into account the precedent set for the series on this wiki. If the Gran Turismo games each have individual pages, that would warrant looking into separating the prologue and Gran Turismo 5 as I said before. However, if multiple games share pages, say by story arc or discrete series/reboots, than we would be justified in following that template and keeping them on the same page as you suggest.

My issue with treating Ground Zeroes and V as the same game is that by the standards of the Metal Gear series articles on this site, they are distinct installments. Treating them as the same game would be similar to treating Peacewalker and Ground Zeroes as the same game, as Peacewalker could be considered to be a prequel to Ground Zeroes, since the latter is confirmed to be an Immediate Sequel.

My issue is that until we have more information, then it's best to stick to the default for now, since leaving the possibility of merging pages for later seems a lot more considerate than leaving the potential for future readers being confused by having to track down Ground Zeroes due to it being unlisted.

I'm not trying to discount Kojima's own words. It's obvious that Ground Zeroes and V will be two parts of a whole. But unless there is further confirmation that they are connected from more than a plot perspective, I just don't see a point to putting the tropes on one page. Keeping them separate isn't ugly and keeps things organized more precisely.

To be clear, all I'm advocating is that we wait for concrete information before merging pages. All we have is pre-release info with very little detail. If we knew for certain, say for instance, that V will use save-game data from Ground Zeroes, then there would be more justification for merging the pages. But we don't. We will soon though, at which point everyone in this discussion will be more informed.
KrazyKopter
12:17:20 AM Apr 22nd 2013
It's like saying the Tanker chapter of MGS 2 and the Virtuous Mission of MGS 3 should have separate pages.

Dead Rising: Case Zero and Case West are part of the Dead Rising 2 page since they're part of the overall story and gameplay. Both Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain will have the same type of new gameplay and the former leads into the plot of the latter, something which the other MG games don't directly do.

I do think we shall wait until they come out, but I think both articles should be merged when they do.
Shaoken
02:47:41 AM Apr 26th 2013
Agreeing with the motion to merge and have created a topic on the matter to get it done now. Also illegal cheese's comparison is faulty; Peace Walker is it own full game, Hideo confirmed that Ground Zeroes and Phantom Pain are the same game and make up the same plot, whereas each other game had it's own self-contained plot along with the overarching one.

Further more going back through the series, both Metal Gear Solid 2 and Metal Gear Solid 3 had seperate sections that took place in different time periods. Yet we don't give the plant section of Metal Gear Solid 2 it's own page nor do we have seperate pages for the Virtuous Mission and Operation Snake Eater.

So I'd stick with the Dead Rising 2 situation where despite Case Zero and Case West being seperate releases that didn't need the main game to be played, because both are essentially a prologue and an epilogue to the main story they get put on that page.
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