Video Game Metal Gear Solid 4 Guns Of The Patriots Discussion

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09:06:08 AM Aug 31st 2013
Should we make a tab for metal gear online? I know the servers have closed down, but there were tropes that were unique to that mode, so I feel it might be fitting to make a separate tab for it.
02:56:35 AM Mar 9th 2011
edited by euterpe
Am I seriously the ONLY person on the internet who thinks that the Otacon/Naomi romance was a massive case of Idiot Ball and Character Derailment? I mean, for all he knows she basically committed time-lapse murder on Snake! Even given Otacon's forgiving personality, it's a bit of a f***ing stretch to assume that he'd be OK with that to the point of actually falling for her. HE CHOSE A PERSON HE KNOWS FULL WELL HAS Chronic Backstabbing Disorder OVER THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN HIS LIFE! Even removing shipping from the equation, this is still a MASSIVE betrayal. It spits in the face of everything we are shown about Otacon and Snake's relationship! OTACON IS NEITHER THAT CALLOUS NOR THAT STUPID IN ANY OTHER OF HIS APPEARANCES, SO WHY IS HE LIKE THAT HERE?? And I seem to be the only one who gives a damn!
Is this a result of Hideo Kojima not wanting to make MGS 4, just like having to "shake off that MGS" and the copious comments about letting things be? Because if it is, this goes beyond the realm of "disgruntled creator" and into the realm of "deliberately insulting his fans."
TL;DR, Otacon/Naomi sucks on toast, and not just for Die for Our Ship reasons. And nobody but me seems to care.
07:43:00 AM Mar 9th 2011
Hey, hey, hey...Psst. It's a game. The people in it aren't real and, when you get right down to it, don't matter.

So chill the fuck out.
01:31:04 PM Mar 12th 2011
I have an unfortunate tendency to rant angrily. Sorry. Still, this REALLY gets under my skin.
01:50:06 PM Mar 12th 2011
As long as it is in the discussion section and not the main page it's cool.
02:41:51 PM Mar 24th 2011
MGS 4 is supposed to be a disgruntled creator project so no you're not the only one that understands that.
09:33:06 PM Feb 10th 2011
I'm surprised at the condition of this page. Can't get rid of what little negative entries and make this this completely bias?
01:30:51 AM Feb 20th 2011
Really, why is all the negative entries about this game take off of this site?
02:56:56 PM Mar 24th 2011
Because you don't have a License To Whine on the article.

If you want to share your opinion, use the review section. That's what it's there for.

01:12:02 PM Apr 21st 2011
Who's whining? Is it whining to point out blatant Character Derailment? Nope, because many other pages on this site have entries covering it but not MGS 4. Nothing is aloud to be put up that even remotely give a different interpretation as to what MGS 4 is really about is shot down and given undo ridicule.
07:34:33 PM Oct 4th 2010
edited by LaLiLuLeLo
The information about how Raiden was able to electrocute the FROGs in ACT 5 because of a taser-like function in his sword was removed because of it being guesswork. But technically, there is one thing that backs up that theory: Isn't that how Olga knocked out Raiden near the end of MGS2?
08:17:55 PM Oct 4th 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
Yeah, but it's still a theory. It's not like we don't already have a lightning-man in the series canon anyway, so really there's no way to tell if it's supposed to be the sword's taser power increasing in strength ridiculously, or Raiden gaining supernatural powers at random because he really, really wanted to have them, rather like Fortune did at the end of MGS2. But the dialog suggests this is a power Raiden has, not just a normal weapon.
12:30:15 PM Jan 28th 2011
About the Olga thing, wasn't it stated in either the Document of Metal Gear Solid 2's Plant Chapter script or the Director's Commentary for Metal Gear Solid 2 that his being electrocuted was actually the result of the nanomachines in his body being harmonized or something?

Also, the electrical attack was probably the excess electrical currents that he was emitting (hey, his suit was damaged, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason.).
09:28:50 PM Feb 10th 2011
That would require the lighting to have come form his body and that it be the same color as the electricity that was jumping off him. Seeing that neither happens then there is no good explanation.
04:31:45 AM Jul 24th 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
Just in case someone's curious, winnable battles in the first two acts:

Act 1:

  • Area Snake gets Mk. II: Destroy both Strykers, militia will usually mop up by themselves.
  • Area near collapsed building: Destroy the Stryker past the barricade, mop up the troops nearby (militia usually get massacred trying)
  • Area slightly further ahead: Kill all the snipers.
  • Areas further on down; the battle near the tall building and the one further up the road with respawning PMC helicopters don't seem winnable.
  • After the hotel, the Rebels will win if every PMC member in the area is killed; not sure if the BMP-3 has to get to the end of its route (it's unavoidably killed by a hidden top-attacking Javelin eventually)

Act 2:

  • First area doesn't have a "we did it!" prompt, but the Rebels will automatically befriend you if any of them survive your rescue attempt.
  • Power station: Destroy the undamaged console in the Power Station with C4 or escort a militia soldier inside and he'll do it for you.
  • Detention Centre: there's two militia prisoners in a small building at the back of the big complex; kill the guard, follow the prisoners off the map, and come back to find the Rebels have won (erm...)
  • Mansion: Seems unwinnable.

Anyone know of a way for the Rebels to win at the other two?
09:25:43 PM Jul 23rd 2010
I'm still not in the Johnny/Meryl camp myself, as much as Hideo wanted to shoe-horn in their romance at the last minute.

I've often had the impression that Kojima never particularly cared for Meryl half as much as the fanbase does, which is why he relegated her to the backstory post-MGS 1 in favour of following Snake's bromance with Otacon. On many levels it was a perfectly reasonable direction to take Snake's character, as Otacon was the greater intellectual heavy weight with a greater span of knowledge to use in aiding Snake's new anti-war mentality, but on the other hand leaving Meryl on the wayside seems like a tragic misuse of storytelling resources.

There you have a former military-fetishist who has been abused, mislead, left to die and tortured (To the point of implied rape) by her orders from a Washington kleptocrat. Sounds like the kind of person who might want to saddle up with Snake on a world-spanning quest to prevent the proliferation of WM Ds without nationalism getting in the way, right? Tragically we instead get a Shrug of God and an unspoken declaration that while Snake escaped Shadow Moses with her vowing to live for others (Especially her), he immediately ditched her and she happily went back to work in the military despite all the corruption she was witness to at Shadow Moses. She then becomes a non-entity.

Summarising her entire character arc, she was an Action Girl primary character who got Put on a Bus then demoted to little more than a Mauve Shirt on her return. To me her shacking up with Johnny out of absolutely nowhere at the end just felt like a weird form of Pair the Spares, where she ended up with another character he deemed just as relevant (i.e. Not at all).

Just to be clear I'm not a Snake/Meryl shipper by any stretch of the imagination, I just would have liked to have seen Meryl's character develop in a different direction and with a very different conclusion. Christ I've rambled a bit...

TLDR: Meryl marrying Johnny was bullshit on toast. Discuss.
03:52:33 AM Jul 24th 2010
edited by Evilest_Tim
Yeah, I thought it was a little abrupt how Johnny had a bucket of Gary Stu thrown at him at the end of act three and suddenly turned into an actual character, not to mention a little forced the way Kojima cleared up the "Snake gave in to Ocelot" implication of Meryl's non-presence in 2 by just having her randomly turn up again.

Though given my fondness for firearms I was a little too busy being baffled by the idea of being able to construct a mechanical firearm with an electronic remote-operated safety system that any idiot with basic machine tooling couldn't just totally remove from the weapon. I mean sure if they were futureguns using something exotic like electrothermal ignition so the electronics were fundamental to the gun's operation, but they were real-life guns designed to function without the ID system, so all the system could do is interrupt their normal operation somehow.

It especially bugged me that Snake could field-strip the M4 without noticing whatever new component locks up the trigger group.
04:40:25 PM Jun 25th 2010
I'd like to raise the issue of Johnny Sasaki's status as a Genome Soldier from the Fridge Logic entry rather than dispute it on the page itself like an insufferable bore.

As my long-haired collegue Mr Death claimed, some fans believe that Johnny's claim to Trypanophobia validates the assertion that he, unlike the rest of the Next Generation Special Forces, was not subject to genome alteration.

My belief was that the whole purpose of the unit was to test the science of sharing Big Boss's alleles and therefore that the course was mandatory. Not only that, but that if many or even one of the NGSF went without it then Liquid's motivation of protecting his genetic surrogate family was significantly cheapened. Thereby making the trypanophobia plot twist an ass pull of Goatse proportions.

However, it does lead to a compelling bit of possible Fridge Brilliance:

Liquid claimed that the Genome Soldiers were falling prey to Asymmetry Theory (Not "degeneration", without being pedantic) which, in a schlock-science kind of way means that they were all falling victim to the same illnesses simultaneously. By that logic, Johnny therefore cannot possibly be a Genome soldier, because if he was then the entire base would suffer from his uncontrollable diarrhoea!

All told this is probably a bunch of dingo's kidneys; it's next to impossible that Kojima could plan that his joke character would become such a helpful plot-participant for his endgame.

Amusing discourse, none the less.
05:12:30 PM Jun 25th 2010
I, um, don't have long hair.

But anyway, not every soldier at Shadow Moses Island was a Genome Soldier. Meryl wasn't. Yeah, she had just been transferred in to manipulate Campbell, but still.

As for the 'degeneration' thing, my mistake. I was thinking of The Last Days of FOXHOUND where that's what happened (and where half the soldiers at Shadow Moses weren't Genome Soldiers).
03:38:39 PM Jul 5th 2010
The Genome were the children born with Big Boss. There is nothing to suggest that either of them aren't Genome Soldiers and the fact that they were both part of the FOXHOUND reserves means that they most likely were.
09:02:46 AM Jul 17th 2010
Sorry, the Long Hair thing with a Hunter S. Thompson reference.

I'd just like to point out that many fans think that Sasaki looked uncannily like Snake did in his youth, and that this can't be accidental, taking it to imply that he was a genome soldier. Yet apparently he hates needles so he couldn't receive nano-machines...yet in MGS 1 he had a Soliton Radar signature which is apparently produced by nanomachines (And if you bring up the Soliton in Peace Walker as a counterpoint to that I will beat you soundly with a kipper and point out that it's not likely to be continuity).

I'm sorry, I just can't let this plot-fart go. For all the fine tapestries of continuity Kojima weaved in this series this part just sits badly with me. I think I'm entitled to a Fridge Logic entry.
06:08:47 AM Jul 23rd 2010
Johnny's password for the laser beams is "Meryl?" Haha, I totally didn't know that. Man, so many easter eggs....
07:44:36 AM Jul 23rd 2010
Yeah, you see him type out "Meryl" and there's enough extra characters for it to be her full name.
01:29:10 PM Oct 4th 2010
Maybe Johnny didn't get any of the Genome Soldier stuff because he was in the control group?
05:59:35 PM Oct 4th 2010
I always thought the reveal was going to be that his perpetual stomach problems would be due to being allergic to the nanomachine treatments, so every time he had his shot he'd promptly shit them out. It's kinda odd they didn't go with that, since it's quite a good explanation for both things. It doesn't make much sense that he'd be in a control group, though, since the Genome Soldiers were actually deployed; you wouldn't generally keep the control with the rest of them when the process wasn't experimental anymore.
12:27:09 PM Jan 28th 2011
edited by EJO1
"(And if you bring up the Soliton in Peace Walker as a counterpoint to that I will beat you soundly with a kipper and point out that it's not likely to be continuity)."

Would that mean the entirety of Chapter 5 was not in continuity? I'm asking because the Soliton Radar was received in a main ops mission in Chapter 5, so to deny it being in continuity would mean that you'd have to deny Chapter 5 itself as being in continuity.

"The Genome were the children born with Big Boss. There is nothing to suggest that either of them aren't Genome Soldiers and the fact that they were both part of the FOXHOUND reserves means that they most likely were. "

No, no, the Genome soldiers were not "born" from Big Boss/with Big Boss. Liquid made it quite clear that, unlike himself and Solid Snake, the Genome soldiers received their genes "digitally.", meaning they were injected with Big Boss's genes.
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