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Hok2
topic
03:12:20 PM Aug 7th 2012
The Blade Always Lands Pointy End In - Makes a reference to Lightning's "base character", but links only the FFVII page, shouldn't it link to the alleged base character?
SeptimusHeap
topic
10:37:27 AM Jun 3rd 2012
This entry needs more details, assuming it's actually a Xanatos Gambit and not simply The Plan.
TwoDollarBill
10:46:26 AM Jun 3rd 2012
edited by TwoDollarBill
I found an entry in the Character page that gives a better explanation than the one on the Main page:

  • Xanatos Gambit: Either his plans to destroy Time succeed (by killing Etro directly, or by forcing open the Unseen Gate), or the heroes kill him... which would destroy Time as well. Lightning realises the futility of fighting against him under these conditions, and allows herself to be defeated.

It's a valid use of the trope, seeing how the planner wins no matter the condition.
SeptimusHeap
11:29:35 AM Jun 3rd 2012
^I think you can readd it then.
reno2200
topic
06:51:47 PM Apr 27th 2012
Would the future-seeing of Yeul count as 'Cast From Life Span?'
TheStrayXIII
topic
08:51:46 AM Mar 5th 2012
Was reading over the Player Punch page. Would XIII-2 as a whole count as a Player Punch? In that, to complete the game alone it involves killing the main character. I dunno, but to me the emotional level of the ending feels appropriate, but at the same time you were expecting it. Just not to a degree.

There's also Noel's role in the death of the goddess, particularly if the player chose the "Kill Him" option over the "Show Mercy". At that point in the game, I doubt many would have realized that they really killed the goddess until the very end.
RavenGrave
topic
05:49:55 PM Mar 4th 2012
The comment about "While Square Enix plays inappropriate music" in regards to New World playing over the end scene. Just listening to the lyrics, it actually seems appropriate, if the lyrics are read as being from Noel's POV.

For example, in the chorus: "Baby, I'm gonna see the new world, with nothing but the love you gave me; only thing I can do is to trust the time we shared. Maybe I'm gonna go to the new world, with nothing but the strength you gave me. There's nothing to be afraid of. I know your love will lead me where we should be. Even if it's a dark and hard time for me, I don't want to give up my hope".

If we ignore the obligatory "baby" for any pop song, the line about love could apply to Yeul, and the line about strength could be Serah. (Or even both about Serah, if it's interpreted as being familial or friendly love, rather than romantic love.) The line about "where we both SHOULD be" seems an appropriate sentiment. And for the sake of the Incredibly Lame Pun, "I don't want to give up my Hope" during the "dark and hard time" is pretty appropriate; Hope is basically Noel's only remaining friend at this point.

It seems like a case of Lyric Dissonance more than Soundtrack Dissonance, since the lyrics themselves are actually somewhat sad, compared to the Award Bait melody.
FaytHarkwind
topic
02:31:05 PM Mar 1st 2012
Just wanted to check something before I correct it in case I missed something. I'm not sure where the information for the entry for Anyone Can Die comes from. Have I missed a scene or has the Troper misunderstood the end of Sunleath Waterscape?
RavenGrave
05:51:11 PM Mar 4th 2012
I think the Troper misunderstood the scene at the end of Sunleth Waterscape. If I remember, it was explicitly stated that Snow returned to the timestream. Also, several of the fragments contain messages from Snow, so I think he's still alive. But since his presence was an effect of the paradox, once it was resolved, Snow was sent back to wherever he had originally been.
Zagen30
topic
04:23:25 PM Feb 29th 2012
edited by Zagen30
First off, the claims that the bosses are Nintendo Hard should really be called That One Boss, correct? Isn't Nintendo Hard supposed to apply to the majority of a game's running time, not just a few bosses?

Second, did anyone find any of the main story bosses all that difficult? I admit I was overleveled most of the game, but it's not like I maxed out the Crystarium in AF 005 Bresha Ruins. And the complaint about the Paradox Caiuses wouldn't even fit That One Boss since they're Bonus Bosses, yes?

Can an RPG boss be considered That One Boss if a modicum of grinding is enough to make him not so tough?

Virtually every reaction I've seen is people saying it was a very easy game, with those two instances of Nintendo Hard seeming very out-of-place.
RavenGrave
05:53:57 PM Mar 4th 2012
It depends on the difficulty. I had to ramp it down to Easy when I faced Caius in Oerba, and had to keep it there in order to level grid to sufficiently face down Caius. Normal Difficulty bosses deal out and take less damage, so they are more challenging.

That being said, I agree with you that none of the bosses are Nintendo Hard, and I tried to avoid over-leveling (although Academia AF 400 certainly put a stop to that.)
ccoa
moderator
topic
08:32:29 AM Feb 17th 2012
edited by ccoa
The Brought Down to Normal entry seems like Fanon to me, besides being a grammatical mess. Where in the game is this coming from?

EDIT: Nevermind, pulled it for not fitting the trope. I do wish people would read tropes instead of assuming the meaning from the title. Here it is if anyone wants to mine any actual tropes from it:

  • Brought Down to Normal: All of the fal'Cie excluding a manmade one in 13AF are destroyed due to the ending of XIII, except for a stray that appears during an eclipse in Yaschas Massif 10AF. The manmade one, aka Adam, does get destroyed, but it takes a literal Say My Name moment and several other revelations. Since the fal'Cie all control their respective l'Cie, this results in everyone binded to the fal'Cie to have their brands vanish. Adam takes a different direction: it forces the public in Academia 400AF to be permanent l'Cie somehow. This doesn't stop Hope, of all people, to retake a level in badass
LastAccelerator
topic
06:38:30 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by LastAccelerator
Modified Ship Tease -> The only teasing I noticed is that if you talk to Lebreau at the beginning of the game. Also, removed the chemistry part, since I think it's very subjective. On my part, I don't see a lot of romantic chemistry. If friedship was chemistry, the friendzone would be marriage.

Also, removed the Not Love Interest from Noel. Maybe a hint of Platonic Life Partners or Like Brother and Sister, but definitely not Not Love Interest. Just read the description. The general importance level isn't nearly enough.

ccoa
moderator
09:16:04 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by ccoa
I disagree about the Not Love Interest bit. This seems to be the key part of that trope:

"The Not Love Interest is an interesting phenomenon in which the character who fulfills a typical "Love Interest" role doesn't actually have a romantic relationship with the hero. The Hero may have an actual love interest, but they will always be much less significant than this character. "

Noel is fulfilling a role usually reserved for love interests: Battle Couple, Bodyguard Crush, I Will Protect Her, etc. But he doesn't have a romantic relationship with Serah and Serah has a love interest already, who is much less significant to the plot.

LastAccelerator
10:26:17 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by LastAccelerator
Yes, less significant to the plot, but not to the character. This is not like Senhougahara and Hanekawa, or Asuna and Negi, to a certain extent, for example. Serah refers to Snow as her hero and as someone who can make her relax. Not to mention their own ending, even though it isn't the true ending. Yes, there is a I Will Protect Her not romantic wise, throw in The Dulcinea Effect for good measure. I think most of the Shipping Fuel comes from them travelling together and being of approximate ages. If it was Hope instead of Noel, would it still be a Not Love Interest(not just the age factor)? Mog is more of a Not Love Interest than Noel, if it's story relevance that decides it.

Serah and Snow would be a Battle Couple, since they are a couple, and just because Noel is, in a way, her bodyguard, the Bodyguard Crush is not automatic and doesn't even make sense here.

Why not Sazh and Vanille or Fang and Snow or Light and Hope as pseudo Battle Couple and Not Love Interest times 3 as well?

And IMMO, I don't understand how Noel is fulfilling those conditions. Is it because of their age? The fact that they are both straight and of different genders? The fact that they talk to each other? Them being friends? What if she was travelling with Snow or Hope as well? Somekind of platonic threesome?

ccoa
moderator
10:43:51 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by ccoa
First, let me get this out of the way: I do not ship anyone in this game, including Serah/Noel or Serah/Snow. I have no agenda here.

I'm not saying they have those tropes I listed. What I'm saying is that those are tropes you would normally expect to apply given the situation and the characters. They're in the audience's mind as expectations because they are tropes that normally pop up in similar narratives. Thus, we have Noel, who is in a position that we would normally expect to be some variety of Love Interest, but he is most explicitly not. That's the key bit of the Not Love Interest trope - a character you, as the audience, might expect to be the love interest, but isn't.

Second, the trope does not say less significant to the character. It just says less significant. We don't know which interpretation is correct. (And I have no idea who those random keyboard mash names are.)

Third, yes, if Hope were in a position where you'd normally expect him to be Serah's love interest and he wasn't, then the trope would apply to him. No, it could never apply to Mog, because the audience would never expect a Ridiculously Cute Critter to be the Love Interest, so there's no expectation.

Fourth, I never said that only importance decides this trope. Where did you get that idea? Here are the key components of the trope:

  • Character A is in a position that one would normally expect to be a love interest to Character B
  • Character A is NOT a love interest to Character B

Not required, but frequently seen, is:

  • Character B already has a love interest who is "less significant"

Fifth, please don't spoil the endings for me. I haven't finished the game. And please don't get so worked up over this. I'm not trying to push a shipping agenda, here, I'm trying to make sure tropes that fit get documented.

EDIT: To address the things you edited in: I can't think of any pairing in the original that you would normally expect to develop a romantic relationship. So, no, I don't think any of the original cast would fit this trope.

As to why I would expect Noel to be the love interest: He's a male lead in an RPG paired with a female the same age. He's protecting her, they're bonding, they're saving each other's lives. Given the conventions of the genre, one would normally expect them to become involved. Heck, see Rescue Romance, The Dulcinea Effect, Mystical Waif, etc. for examples of where this happens. The audience expects it, because in an RPG, a male character saving an attractive female character = romance. I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a very common trope and thus an audience expectation.
LastAccelerator
11:10:33 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by LastAccelerator
I haven't spoiled the ending, I just said that one existed where the both of them interacted in some way.

Also, I don't ship anyone because I don't even know how to ship an Official Couple or even the point of shipping cannonical impossibilities.

I agree, the less significant is quite open to interpretation.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion that A, B and C see two people walking down the street. A says they are friends. B says they are lovers and C says they are platonic perfection (poor guy).

Would't those 3 use different tropes to describe the pair?

I too have no shipping agenda, but my interpretation of the Not Love Interest is that the pair would need to be the height of platonic relationships. Without spoiling, on personal opinion alone, this adventure provides a solid base for such, after all it is a saving the universe endeavour, but the story does not take advantage of it, like a mistreated Spice and Wolf.

Also, about the first game, I always though that there was potencial in Hope developing romantic feelings for Light, based on his slight co-dependance.

So I think that my final conclusion is that FFXIII-2 has the potencial to establish a Not Love Interest, but doens't capitalize. The weight of expectation upon comparing the flow and principle of the story to other works versus what the developers decided to focus on. Ugh, am I high?

Also, on a diffent note altogether, I think that even Lightning would lose her stoic demeanor in front of Bishonen Hope. That would be fun to see, along with Vanille screeching and Fang whistling.

ccoa
moderator
11:59:46 AM Feb 6th 2012
edited by ccoa
I'm going to wait to finish the game before making a further case, but I definitely disagree that they have to have the "height" of a platonic relationship in order to fit the trope. How would one even define "height", anyway? That's incredibly subjective and seems like it's just asking for edit wars. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to spot a Subverted Trope, and that's what this is: a subversion of one of the love interest tropes.

And I have no idea what Spice and Wolf is.

At any rate, Not Love Interest needs a visit to the TRS for a description clarification, as its first two paragraphs are one massive, confusing Example As Thesis.
xreix
topic
10:11:59 AM Jan 20th 2012
edited by xreix
Ending details - Okay so how do we know the 'true ending' for the game thats still months away from release. Have the trailers really been -that- specific?
Starcade
topic
05:46:56 PM Sep 30th 2011
I don't know what trope this is, but I have a gut feeling on something from the trailers: It appears as if Lightning disappears from the end-cutscene of XIII just after the game ends, but no one appears to notice. And they seem to have just shoe-horned this in (with the Tokyo Game Show trailers) as to explain that Lightning goes to Valhalla for some odd/strange reason. If there's a trope for this, might wish to help me out on this one...
ccoa
moderator
topic
05:24:30 AM Aug 29th 2011
edited by ccoa
I'm thinking that adding Hope as an example of Took a Level in Badass is premature. First, he was pretty damn badass already at the end of the first game, so this doesn't really seem like much, if any, of a step up. Second, what we've seen so far takes place within a cutscene, and we all know what can happen in cutscenes.

I think it should be removed pending more evidence.
Tifereth
12:47:43 PM Sep 22nd 2011
edited by 86.179.31.113
Cutscene Power to the Max aside, remember that our merry band of heroes lost their L'Cie powers at the end of the game, and Hope now works for PSICOM. So at the very least he's retaken a level in Badass, if only in Badass Normal this time.
TheStrayXIII
05:42:24 PM Mar 6th 2012
Not so much as PSICOM but the Academy (in fact, her runs it by 24). What's key here is that we haven't seen Hope's Badassery through the perspective of a player character, only a prominent NPC. Do note, however, that he spent his days on Cocoon, so whatever magic-awakening exposure he could have got from Gran Pulse (like Serah) probably never happened. Makes the taser installed on his boomerang sensible as its his means to defend himself. As they're going to release character-specific DLC, like with Sazh, if Hope gets one we'll see if he regained his magic, putting the debate for the Took a Level in Badass trope to rest.

Hopefully.
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