...Overzealousness and good intentions pave the way to hell, dammit ;_;
Uh...Context Not Cruft? Where's perfection when we want it? When I want it ;_;
Would it be worthwhile to have a VideoGame.Koei Warriors or something page for general tropes, a la the VideoGame.Capcom Vs Whatever page? I think there's enough general tropes that it'd be worthwhile.
Any thoughts on the name for it?
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Eh, I don't think it's necessary at all.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Uh... please, can someone change Lu Bu's Berserk Button on the main page from Fan Castle to Hu Lao Gate? I would change it if I could. But I'm at a phone and I can't scroll down and edit it unless I cut and readd the materials in my way. (And that would be too messy.)
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I dunno what is happening here, but there's just too much anti-Shu bias going around in the Character pages or YMMV pages. Not to mention, putting things that are mostly in novel/history... but NOT in the games. Please, what do we have the ROTK page for? Do the novel stuffs there...
And stop going anti-Shu so much!
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I had a brief look through the characters section and I didn't spot much "anti-Shu bias" anywhere. The comments seem pretty neutral to me.
That's because I had to remove most of them already. Check through the History section. Let's see, for example, someone listed Guan Yu as Jerkass when in the game, he wasn't even showing any Jerkass moments. Those were just on the novels, and someone had to put that in the DW section... not ROTK.
Or calling Jiang Wei a Dirty Coward for shooting Guo Huai on the back to death, when it would fit better with Combat Pragmatist. Also disregarding the alternate interpretation and the revision of Liu Shan's surrender and make him look like the bumbling moron he was in ROTK novels. The game has similar, but different characterization than the novel, we should strive to make that distinction, IMO.
If that's not enough, you may also check the YMMV page. Look at how much Shu got the massive flaks and even accused as Creator's Pet.
Edited by ChrisX
If I remember correctly, the Jerkass trope under Guan Yu's section refers to his historical self, not the in-game one. The historical Guan Yu had a huge ego and was very prideful, both of which had agruably contributed to his demise. As for Jiang Wei's dirty cowardiness, it's really how you look at it. In an age where honour is often valued above gain, it wouldn't be too far-stretched for someone to call him a Dirty Coward.
But I concur with your opnion about only listing charater-related tropes the way they've been presented in the game instead of the source material or actual history. However, I don't think these really count as "anti-Shu bias". They are at worst Alternate Character Interpretation, and can go to the YMMV page. Ditto about your next argument, that's what the YMMV is for, so we can have these debetable entries listed there instead of the main page.
Of course, yeah, that was his historical self. However, this is Dynasty Warriors not a lesson of history of China. If Guan Yu isn't being portrayed as an insufferable Jerkass in the game, that entry cannot be in the article.
Also as of the Dirty Coward entry, I think that was not really the case for Jiang Wei, even if it's about Honor Before Reason. Jiang Wei had to save Xiahou Ba who just got into his kingdom, and the current quickest way is to shoot Guo Huai on the back. Had to do it, or Xiahou Ba died. So that's why I think it's more about Combat Pragmatist. I say this while still acknowledging that he's becoming the aggresively suicidal Determinator.
The thing is, I'm getting this as an 'Anti-Shu' bias because these entries, especially in the YMMV ones, is heavily bashing that Koei is whitewashing Shu too much. I'm not sure that was really whitewashing when Jiang Wei post-Wu Zhang Plains is portrayed as the one who kept clinging into an old value that proves to be destructive while Sima Zhao was the one trying to usher the new age not bound with old values, something that even Liu Shan agreed. In Guan Yu's case, sure his gigantic pride seems to be poof, gone. But, because the editors just loved to bring that up in annoyance, it was there I got the feeling of 'Anti Shu' bias, it's like the editors were saying "Shu wasn't as that great as Koei presented them, they're actually horrid! Here's the real truth, taken from the pages of history!" That's why I went around and gave warnings about NOT putting things exclusive in novel and actual history. As in the YMMV page, all the 'negative' stuffs like Creator's Pet were put on Shu, mostly. Wei, Wu or Jin never got such heavy bashing... really. That's why I said bias.
Sorry about this rant. Hope you understand where I come from. I like Shu the way they are, with their flaws and whitewashing, both of them. But these 'historical' putting sounded like calling me as a fool to not listen to history, when all I want is to appreciate both good and bad as presented IN THE GAME, if I want history, I read history books. Sorry for being overly sensitive, but sometimes, this is a form of Fan Dumb forming up in the DW fandom. Maybe we should put this as a YMMV trope somewhere...
Edited by ChrisX
I understand where you come from, but I really don't think those tropers were biased towards Shu, more like they were just referencing to the source material and getting it mixed up with that's actually in-game. Anyway it's good that you've cleared them from the characters section, however I think it would be fair for at least some of them to stay in the YMMV page, as an alternate view on things, at least. After all, isn't the point of TV Tropes to teach you to look at medias in all different lights?
There's still a lot of YMMV entries like Ho Yay, Foe Yay or even Trivia stuffs like Hey Its That Voice. The DW (and SW) section is in quite a need of good revamping.
As of the YMMV thing, sure. That's why I never touched the YMMV section. I agree that TVT is teaching to look at medias in all different lights, but then... we HAVE the ROTK page for that. And when the alternate negatives is only given to Shu, of all kingdoms, there's where 'unfairness' came in... I mean, I'm all ears about giving Shu the alternate negatives, but only if it's also given to all other kingdoms. It's only fair after all, and Koei have been trying to maintain a Grey-and-Gray Morality, so let's try to be fair to all.
Forget about that, but really? I take back me not going to YMMV. Chortles edits about Shu being a Creator's Pet and expanding just how BAAAAADDDD and severe Moral Dissonance that only Shu has is just getting like an irritating Flame Bait. As far as I know, not everyone dislikes Shu and pretty okay with how Koei does them.
Stop this at once, there ARE Shu fans out here who are okay with its glorification of 'Benevolence', and they don't make up the minority to be considered Creator's Pet!
Chris, mate, I really don't get what you're so worked up about. So maybe they are Shu-haters, and what are you gonna do? Hunt down every single of them and wage an Edit War? I mean, come on, that is the YMMV tab, where people express different opnions based on their POV, so it's there for that purpose. And we come to TV Tropes because we like to see how things are like in different people's POV, we don't need the "keep it strictly neutral" political correctness like in That Other Wiki, and personally that's why I much prefer it here than there.
But anyway, I'm not gonna go and revert your edits, but hopefully you can understand what I meant.
Edited by NetImp
It's too unfair. ESPECIALLY on Guan Yu. Okay, sure in history or novel, he could be a huge jackass (even then, he was only getting really jackass when the story is in Jing Province, beforehand, not so much). But, Koei presented him as a pretty decent guy and mostly being the Worthy Opponent here and there. This guy never would let that be, he's adamant in exposing the bad side of Guan Yu that Koei is downplaying or not touching. Why can't people enjoy the more 'positive' portrayal of Guan Yu that Koei presented? (and for the love of God, stop spewing that novel/history line of Guan Yu in terms of not sending Guan Yinping to marriage with Sun Quan's son, that doesn't happen in the game so that can't even be in YMMV!) This is without telling other things like Cao Pi is actually an utter jackass like he was in history and his record is not as stellar as Cao Cao (when in game, he's portrayed as Jerk with a Heart of Gold and can be as good as Cao Cao cunning-wise), or Sun Quan slept with many women (when here, he's pretty much someone who just settled with one and only Lianshi and kind of Adorkable at that)... or how about that in history, even without Jia Chong, Sima Zhao is already a tyrannical dude on his own (instead of The Messiah)? He's fine with those three presented well, but when Shu is presented well, he's adamant on showing the not-so-well thing? Come on.
'People express different opinion' yes, sure. But this is getting like that their opinions are all "Shu, especially Guan Yu, are a bunch of hypocrites and Koei whitewashed them too much, here's the real thing that happened in history! Now stop gawking at them!"... and to me... that sounds like making Shu as an Acceptable Target and god forbid that we be sad on bad things that happen to them, or be in awe of their earlier accomplishment or liking their faction in general. As I said, history-buffs is one form of Fan Dumb that Dynasty Warriors franchise often face, especially when the character portrayal occasionally stray from history/novel.
Creator's Pet is also a veery pet-peeve and sensitive trope, kind of like The Scrappy (hell, it used to be called "The Wesley" AKA "Something even worse than The Scrappy"). So I had to take measures. Especially when most of the 'complains' is about Shu. It's like the one who post that seem to have a gigantic hate on Shu that they slap tropes like that on Shu (the Xiahou Dun one? I was the one to add it. The Taishi Ci one...? Inverted! Why do I feel like this editor is just having a big thing on Wu and disliked how he thinks they're treated in DW? And seriously, I don't see them being derailed into villains, even with what they did with Guan Yu. But basically, it's like this guy's promoting Wu and bash those who are 'harming' them.) *
And in a way 'neutrality' has been kinda implemented here. If we see something like "So Bad, It's Horrible"... it's more likely to be removed with "Flame Bait" reasoning. I removed that on terms that it could generate gigantic Flame War, as it's like a gigantic Flame Bait on its own.
Still, thanks for the consideration. Any other replies, you can reply via here or PM.
Edited by ChrisX
Okay I haven't been able to go online for a few days and what's this I see when I got back...What's with all the "reverting" business in the history page? Did we get vandalised?
Anyway Chris mate, I don't feel like resurrecting an agruement, why don't we chat live sometimes, say MSN?
Vandalised? I don't think that's the case. But still, I'm available via AIM or Skype or MSN. You can PM me for your IM details.
(Netlmp: Yes, a vandal hit this page, deleting it several times. People reverted this, and sometimes their edits overlapped, so it looks like there's an awful lot of reverting business. Nothing to worry about now.)
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
I'm the guy who made the entry about both Xia Pi and Fan Castle. Maybe I might have jumped the gun a bit on the Wu one (I did mention how Wu's betrayal is based out of perspective), but it does say something when the narration pretty much states that Wu was responsible for both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei's deaths when Wu's story didn't even mention anything about Zhang Fei's death (I haven't played DW7 in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong).
Also, I did try to balance it out by saying that Shu also gets the short-end of the stick (Until XL only three characters get unique weapons in 7, neither of them playable in the story (Or even appear in one's case)). While I do think that there is some legitimate complaints, I have to admit that it went a bit overboard.
Edited by LLSmoothJ Why do decent characters suffer Character Derailment while others get the golden child treatment? Running the Asylum while Armed with Canon.
EDIT: Disregard. I just got the instructions from the Locked Pages page.
Edited by ZedOmega "...glad I keep a bottle of aspirin near the keyboard."
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With the announcement of the sequel, permission to make the page of Fist Of The North Star Kens Rage?
The main and characters pages are in some dire need of cleaning up. I'll be doing that and adding in a YMMV page for the more-subjective stuff soon. Hopefully we'll get a better article from it.
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I made a pretty significant edit and I've no doubt I've made plenty enough mistakes I fialed to spot, so here's some reasonings behind what was edited since it was a fairly big edit:
Discussion In The Main Page, Natter, Not A Subversion, Thread Mode, Walkthrough Mode, Wordcruft: A majority of the article is just bad due to these. Deleted and rewritten where it seemed appropriate.
Character-specific: My understanding is that if it's something character specific it should be on the characters page instead of the main page. Much of the character specifics are already on the character pages as well, so much of it was redundant on top of being in the wrong place.
Ascended Extra: I think it works better with a blanket statement instead of naming off so many characters.
Ascended Meme: Maybe it's just going over my head, but I don't think Cao Cao's In-Universe commentary of it really adds anything to the point and the Sima Shi example looks like more of a thing for the characters page to me.
Best Her to Bed Her: It's not exceptionally common, right? I can only recall off the top of my head a couple instances of this showing up, so it sounds like the character page would be better for this to me.
Bittersweet Ending: Duplicate.
Down the Drain: Thankfully we have no sewer levels. I think Battle in the Rain and Big Dam Plot apply, but not Giant Watery Wall Of Doom since sadly we only get a rapid flood. Sounds good?
Fake Difficulty: I'm not seeing a good way to keep it in, doubly so with the No Examples Please bit. YMMV, maybe?
Foe Romance Subtext: The whole initial paragraph there is about fans and not the series itself, the others sound like they belong on character pages to me.
For Want Of A Nail: Redundant.
Genius Bruiser: Asides from belonging on the character page, does any character really qualify for this? If they're not consistently both displaying feats of incredible strength and/or badassery(e.g. the strength Dian Wei tends to display or Zhang Fei scaring off an army by yelling) and often billed up as a peerless genius like Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi, they're just another badass in an ocean of badass or another strategist just like Wei's other 35876 strategists.
Genre Shift: combined with Early-Installment Weirdness Golden Ending: combined with Earn Your Happy Ending Hollywood Old: Artistic Age If We Get Through This…: Character pages. Insane Troll Logic: Second bullet stated why it was moot. It Amused Me: character
Kill It with Fire: The trope name is in tatters and seems to be misused here anyways, it would probably be best to keep it removed until those folks contributing to the efforts to fix it succeed.
Lethal Joke Item: I don't feel that skins alone count. Not So Different: character
Oh, Crap!: I feel the additional examples are just cruft, each one becoming increasingly worse after the Zhang Liao example.
Pocket Protector: character
Shout-Out: Gutted the entry since most of it is "this thing is somehow similar to another thing I like, which I will now squee about" instead of definitive shout outs.
Serial Escalation: I feel that the Strikeforce examples are less escalation and more of a "sidegrade" than actual escalation, so I think that fits better with Oddball in the Series and still explains the spirit Strikeforce more or less.
We Have Reserves: Trope is more about morality, the example wasn't that at all and is actually Red Shirt Army; which is also already there.
You All Look Familiar: Merged with Redshirt Army in an attempt to compare the relative lack of value placed upon generic officers. Did it work for you?
You Are Already Dead: The first example is Interface Screw, I don't feel that the additional examples count. The DW Advance example can be chalked up more to a player not accounting for how to spend their turns due to movement not being a free action. The Sun Jian/DW4 example is also pretty nifty in my opinion, but I'm not sure what trope that actually is.
Whew, I haven't done that much typing in a long time. Makes me want to run for some reason.
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