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NicTyn
topic
12:01:02 PM Aug 29th 2014
Minor typo, but the lock means I can't fix it myself: "...define the person by what they see as a disease that h or she has." Someone needs to put the "e" in "he."
SeptimusHeap
12:54:34 AM Aug 30th 2014
Filed a request here. For future reference, edits on locked pages are requested there.
Terrador
topic
11:50:10 AM Aug 16th 2014
I can't say how well this rings true for other Aspies, but I, personally, would string in notes about the sensory hallmarks of autism in general, as I and the small handful of Aspies I've read about exhibit these to some degree. In addition, I would tack on a note to Defines One's Personality myth, seeing as some, I've noticed, make a very conscious effort to go clear in the other direction for harmless-but-annoying behaviors (dominating a conversation, discussing interests, etc.), which may or may not begin to evaporate when under no pressure, which in turn could tie back into debunking the "everyone is the same" myth.
YlvaThorgalsdottir
topic
07:12:45 PM Jul 4th 2014
Should someone add a link to Green-Eyed Redhead in the appropriate part of this sentence: "Putting the person first, before the disorder, is important to many people who either see it as just another trait such as hair or eye color or don't want to define the person by what they see as a disease that h or she has."
Ymirsdaughter
09:26:36 AM Jul 12th 2014
You never see anyone get described as "person with green eyes", "a person with blue eyes", "someone who has red or brown hair"…
Richmonde
topic
10:44:36 AM Jun 24th 2014
Excellent description of the Neuro Typical world. Do you realise how utterly mad it sounds? ;-)
TVRulezAgain
topic
06:09:37 PM Oct 29th 2013
Are the example quotes really necessary? They seem kinda generalized to me.
Mathir_Girelad
08:10:22 AM Jan 7th 2014
Well, sometimes we as Aspies want to explain our condition in such a way that people understand. Not all the cases are like that, but still, it's a general idea.
Lokean
01:14:07 AM Jan 25th 2014
Yes, they are to us with Asperger's Syndrome
TVRulezAgain
06:47:30 PM Mar 16th 2014
I dunno. I just worry that they might promote stereotypes about people with Asperger's.
Storm
topic
10:16:54 PM Apr 7th 2013
edited by Storm
EDIT: Disregard this. Preferably delete it.
Thecommander236
topic
10:33:11 AM Mar 12th 2013
On the other hand, there are records of AS subjects who have reduced physical sensitivity, or at least show no outward signs of discomfort, including one boy who showed no sign of pain at all prior to diagnosis of a twisted testicle (normally a very painful condition).

sign of pain at all prior to diagnosis of a twisted testicle (normally a very painful condition).

twisted testicle

I almost vomited at this sentence.
Eclipse11
topic
12:57:30 AM Dec 3rd 2012
This page should be merged with High Functioning Autism (which should be renamed Autism Spectrum Disorders or something, but that's a separate issue) as Aspergers has been removed from the DSM. It would function more accurately as just a page on Autism as most legitimate sufferers will be diagnosed as Autistic and so Aspergers will be outdated and less helpful (acceptable as an alternative name for the page to use as a redirect though).

Also the characteristics of Aspergers need to be more narrowly defined as they definitely apply to me and i know full well i don't have that disorder (I was bullied as a kid and raised as an only child) and so it may give a poor impression that "Aspergers can be manipulated to apply to anyone" while i am sure the reality is that legitimate sufferers of the disorder have more specialized symptoms that will frequently be specific just to those with an Autism Disorder and not just anyone who might have been a nerdy loser (like i was) growing up
Lokean
01:18:16 AM Jan 25th 2014
The DSM IV ***IS*** vague in the diagnostic criteria. Having Asperger traits does not mean that one has Aspergers. One must have multiple traits from several categories in order to get the DX. Also, there *is* a VERY strong Aspergers community out there, and doing that will push a good deal many Berserk Buttons.
alcockell
05:39:39 AM Jun 1st 2014
Asperger is still in the ICD-10.

aenicus
11:44:57 AM Jun 20th 2014
Better keep the way is now, at lest until de ICD-11 is released in 2017. This revision so far is doing something similar to the DSM-5, but since ICD-10 still valid and used for diagnosis doesn't make much sense combine asperger's to autism and create a single useful note yet.

About being more narrowly defined, as said by Loken, DSM-IV is vague, but maybe is necessary to put emphasis in the fact than this traits should be present since childhood.
DoctorDetective
topic
07:21:08 PM Jun 28th 2012
Feel like the whole "difficulty lying" bit is kind of... generalized. I've been diagnosed, and I'm a compulsive liar.
birdbrainblue
04:36:56 PM Jul 11th 2012
Same. I also have AS, and lying comes very naturally to me.
malonkey1
08:35:15 AM Aug 25th 2012
DoctorDetective
12:19:24 PM Dec 7th 2012
DUN DUN DUN.
Thecommander236
10:34:43 AM Mar 12th 2013
Same here. I have a lot of practice lying to my mom since she yells a lot (something she was told to do when I was diagnosed with ADHD.) Now they think I have AS which is connected to ADHD in some way.
Lokean
01:19:10 AM Jan 25th 2014
Lying is traumatic to me. I am terrible at it, and hate people who lie.
Torchic65101
11:27:05 AM Jan 30th 2014
I have Asperger's Syndrome, and all of these ring true to me except for "difficulty lying".
elkeryos
06:03:07 AM Feb 7th 2014
Some people said it well, maybe without knowing it, but the thing is: an aspie CAN lie. White lies and real ones. But. First, he must learn to do it. This comes with time and when you go through a lot. And second, he still usually doesn't like to do it. But still. An aspie can lie, he must just learn to. It's "normal" to be able to learn to if you're old enough. After all, it is a logical thing if you understand the why and many other things. It's like reading body language: an aspie can do it, but it will be conscious analysis instead of automatic, and he will have to learn to do it.
Morbuss
05:17:34 PM Aug 10th 2014
Here is one of the main issues I have with Aspie characterisations: lying. It isn't that we cannot lie, it is that because we are very literal, we take everything that is said to us at face value; truth, lies, sarcasm, all of it. What it means when it comes from us is that while we are not good at lying in a pinch, we are good at making up a story or obscuring the truth, or even omitting it altogether.

Personally, I like people to tell me the truth at all times, as I prefer to tell others the truth as well. A 'treat others as you would want to be treated' kind of mindset.
SeptimusHeap
12:47:54 AM Aug 11th 2014
Methinks that this discussion tab is not the ideal place for discussing autism. May I suggest this forum topic instead?
NotALlama
topic
09:19:59 PM Jun 7th 2012
O_O Wow, I have AS and this articles defines me so well it's almost scary... :D Good work, men!
Lokean
01:19:43 AM Jan 25th 2014
It is a good article, isn't it?
JonnyB
topic
01:04:06 AM May 31st 2012
edited by JonnyB
I strongly object to the recent addition to this page that states that a majority of Aspies are not religious and "do not understand" religion, and I feel it needs either removal or a strong rewrite. I have Aspergers, and I am very religious. (Or at least what people who do not believe in that sort of thing would consider being "religious", personally to me it's faith, it's spirituality), and have known others like me with Aspergers who were also spiritual or people of faith. And I have never seen any sort of study showing that this "majority" exists. I will however say that Aspies that are religious tend to approach religion in an entirely different way than do "normals"; they are more apt to seek God and their faith in a logical and rational fashion than through emotional or mystical means, as we tend to approach most everything in life.
JonnyB
01:18:00 PM Jun 1st 2012
Nevermind. I made a slight change and an addendum that I think suffices to mitigate the original perceived harshness of the OP's addition as well as shed more light on the perception of religious Aspies.
safed_sher
topic
09:15:31 AM Apr 8th 2012
I wonder if the article is white-knighting it a bit re: Aspies never using their illness as an excuse or never ever being jerkasses. I've got AS and can certainly think of people who have used AS and ADHD and other diagnoses as excuses for Jerk Ass behaviour—the old "I have this disorder and you just don't understand why I flipped out, so piss off" line. It's not uncommon, that's all I'm saying. They might not even be thinking of it an excuse when they say it, but it might actually emerge from their own experience and shame at having a moment they recognise as an autistic flipout. I've certainly had autistic flipouts and have been so upset and depressed I've told people to piss off because I had AS and couldn't deal with the situation, in the most teenagery "I have this illness and you just don't get it, and I'm doomed to be a horrible person for the rest of my life because of my brain, augh, I hate everything" manner (well, I was clinically depressed at the time). Which could easily be seen as an excuse by some.

Basically, I am glad the page exists to dispel some of the common myths about Aspies, but at times it seems to be going too much in the other direction in that implies Aspies never exhibit certain cliches. I know Aspies who have no sense of humour whatsoever (and who would readily admit they just don't "get" humour and that they think it's useless), and some with an outrageous sense of humour, but the article says humourless Aspies don't exist. Same thing with elitist nerd Aspies (dear Lord, they exist, I certainly am one) and potentially dangerous "psycho" Aspies (I can think of several who have been sued for stalking, one of whom even used to be a friend of mine and had been concealing this fact for years, since she did it as a teenager to a famous singer and had, by her mid-twenties and partially because of the lawsuit, certainly grown out of that sort of behaviour. I've personally had a stalker diagnosed with AS who was genuinely out to kill me, and that just isn't funny). And on the less creepy side, there are plenty of Aspies who take pride in being superior elitists if they've grown up with high I Qs and are thoroughly jaded with the average-IQ mundanes around them. So what I'm trying to say here that despite what the article says, it doesn't mean there aren't mean or scary or difficult autistics out there. Just because we aren't all humourless, sociopaths, nerds and whatever stereotypes, it doesn't mean there isn't a correlation at all. It'd be more neutral to change some of the language in the article to reflect that (more "there are Aspies who..." instead of "all Aspies would..." and "no Aspie would..." statements).

Do I like the fact that the most visible Aspies in media are always the scary ones and that I'm characterised as an unemphatic and humourless and oversensitive? No. Does it mean we should just claim all the classic (or cliched, if you will) Aspie traits are exaggerations and no true Aspie ever exhibits any of them? No.
Robrecht
10:40:04 PM Apr 30th 2012
I've said 'I have this disorder and I think that's why either you just didn't understand what I meant or I just didn't understand what you meant' when I was younger and more naive towards the internet and found it responded to quite badly. Mostly because I was using it as an explanation, but the people I was talking to thought it was an excuse. While the same situation resolves itself fine if I drop the 'disorder' part and simply said that I thought there was a misunderstanding without mentioning Asperger's.

So yeah I think you're right on that account. And I've also, in the past, been accused of both stalking and intimidation. The stalking part was my fault. I thought I was simply 'taking an interest', but I took it way, way too far and I'm just glad that the person I did that to eventually decided on explaining to me what I was doing wrong and helping me to give me a good feel for personal boundaries. We're still good friends now and make it a point to get together at least once per month. The intimidation thing was more me not realizing that a seventeen year old girl in my college class when I was twenty three didn't appreciate me being direct about my disapproval of her slacking off on a group project, but then the college discovered I wasn't the first guy who she's reported after they disagreed with her (lack of) group behavior, so ultimately my having Asperger's didn't contribute much, beyond me not being aware I was giving her fodder to use against me.

And indeed one of the most important aspects I always address when I speak before a group is that we're not (all) precious little angels who never mean harm or take advantage of a situation... But most of us mean well.
JonnyB
01:33:23 AM May 31st 2012
I've also been accused of "stalking" because my social skills were so bad that I didn't realize I was being inappropriate. Fortunately a couple of young ladies in my social circle recognized me as someone with, if you'll pardon the expression, "special needs", and took it upon themselves to coach me a bit in social interaction skills. (No, not in that way, lol!)

I do think that most Aspies don't intentionally use their Aspergers Syndrome as an excuse, however sometimes I think it comes off that way because we generally have a hard time expressing ourselves. However, that's not to say that all Aspies are like that and that there aren't a few that are intentionally jerkasses and like hiding behind their Aspergers label.
DoctorDetective
07:25:58 PM Jun 28th 2012
There's also a difference between using it as an excuse and being unapologetic. Even if I'm told that something I did was rude, if I can't understand why, even after it is explained to me, I won't feel bad about it.
birdbrainblue
06:03:53 PM Jul 11th 2012
I think that it's still worth keeping SOME form of the "aspies will often apologize profusely once informed they are being offensive" statement, if only because it really is incredibly common. There was certainly a bit of white knighting going on in this page, and that section needed revision, but it's still important for people to know that we rarely actually mean to hurt them, and with that section gone I don't think it comes out quite as strongly.
elkeryos
06:07:06 AM Feb 7th 2014
The biggest problem is that you still have a WHOLE LOT of people saying this without even being aspies. Of course some aspies will be .... Well. Let's stay polite. And use this as an excuse. But we're talking about defining the majority here, since in the end all aspies are different. On the other end, someone using this as a pretext if he isn't an aspie or anything will only be saying this in order to get away with anything. It is meant to be a definition with broad strokes, otherwise it would be a lot longer.
jatay3
topic
09:18:07 AM Dec 27th 2011
edited by jatay3
"This also makes them some of the most sincere, genuine, and trustworthy people around... but perhaps not suited for intelligence work beyond decryption."

I am pretty sure I am an Aspie because I fit the profile almost word for word. As a side note, I have long been fascinated by STRATEGIC deception(The Man Who Never Was , etc) but I would be utterly incompetent at social deception and just couldn't stomach it. I could devise elaborate stings but I couldn't do the manipulation required of a field agent. And I certainly would have a hard time doing day-to-day deception. When people say "how are you" I tend to give a sort of grunt because I just can't say "I'm fine" if I'm not particularly fine even though for most people it means nothing.
Stoogebie
03:33:40 PM Apr 2nd 2012
I find it a bit jarring that this part of the Useful Notes page says that; what's to say about me, who admittedly does lie and has a bad habit of doing so. Of course, being a habitual liar doesn't make me a convincing one (I've been told I have a very obvious tell, which tends to make me a Bad Liar), but still...
ExposeThemAll
topic
11:09:31 AM Dec 6th 2011
Re: http://scryerseve.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/aspie-menace

I don't understand. Why hasn't there been any given examples of the aspie menace in months? It's almost as if what everyone is saying is just a lie, that— NO, no, I will not accept this! For everyone to be saying that asspies use their made-up disease as a crutch to get out of trouble free, well it must be true, certainly not a completely unfounded strawman, right?
tsstevens
topic
04:49:49 PM Nov 7th 2011
Weren't there examples on the page? What happened to them?
whynaut
09:56:05 AM Sep 4th 2012
Seriously. We have to have a place to add Abed from Community.
ctempire
topic
10:47:28 AM Oct 20th 2011
I'm extremely upset on how this trope's main page is biased to the non asperger syndrome people. Isn't there a guide for AS people?
tsstevens
04:49:24 PM Nov 7th 2011
Um...please explain.
tsstevens
04:49:24 PM Nov 7th 2011
Um...please explain.
jatay3
09:21:35 AM Dec 27th 2011
I never got that. I thought the page was sympathetic, noting advantages as well as disadvantages.
ctempire
09:14:51 AM Jan 16th 2012
Okay, here's the detailed reason: Look at the start of the page saying "you will have run into someone claiming that s/he has this condition and were wondering what it meant. Well, we here at TV Tropes aim to fix you up with that info." and the end saying "It is fairly normal to encounter people...". They're saying it only for non-AS people. There's nothing in this page saying info DIRECTLY to the AS people.
Kajin
02:17:15 AM Feb 22nd 2012
edited by Kajin
I honestly don't think the page needs to cater to people with Asperger Syndrome. All that really matters is that it is informative as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, the vast majority of people out there don't have AS. Working on that assumption, a majority of the people visiting this page won't have it either, though the traffic of people who actually do have AS might be higher than is usual due to our inherent interest in the subject matter. I say the context of the information is fine as it is.
JonnyB
01:18:05 AM May 31st 2012
I agree. The page was meant to be informative, and the people who need most to be informed are the "norms", not the Aspies. So obviously it addresses the average Joe. Personally, for the most part I think this is one of the most informative pages on the web and frequently point people to it.
Azurengar
10:48:04 PM Oct 27th 2012
I just discovered the page today, but after having read through it, I thought of referring people to the page, too. It's very well written, overall.
Nightiron
11:22:50 AM Jul 30th 2014
I also didn't feel left out here, it was indeed very well-described and many points match my own experience, though of course not all of them.
tocp0003
topic
12:13:35 AM Oct 17th 2011
I wanted to ask about possibly adding a characteristic of Asperger's. Something a lot of people with it do is repeat things they've heard, over and over and over. Like, they'll watch a movie and repeat a conversation from that movie, or repeat jokes from a comedian.
lala
02:35:15 PM Mar 4th 2012
Hi, tocp. Just about every geek I've ever known does that. One of the geeks I knew had Asperger's, but the other 100+ or so didn't.

I think there are a lot of mix-ups about Aspie characterics with geek characteristics or the characteristics of people who were bullied as children. Geeks are often people who were bullied as kids. Aspies usually get bullied as kids because they're different. So people notice that many Aspies have a characteristic in common and they attribute it to Asperger's, when in fact it's something that most geeks or most kids who were bullied have in common.
DoctorDetective
05:44:56 PM Aug 9th 2012
Well, repetitive behavior is actually a symptom...
Lokean
07:29:20 AM May 2nd 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
It is? It is? It is? It is? LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist.
hecuba
12:55:56 AM Feb 18th 2014
You're not talking about echolalia, are you? That's more common with more non-verbal flavors of ASD. Aspergers (back when it was still DSM) was notable for early, prolific speech - hence the "little professor" moniker. Over-quoting movies or jokes for attempted humor is geek; attempting to use quotes from movies to communicate because you lack spontaneous speech is something else.
ExposeThemAll
topic
11:26:42 AM Oct 6th 2011
edited by ExposeThemAll
@spaceswillberemoved1, so you want proof? Here you go, fool:

http://scryerseve.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/aspie-menace/

We are hard at work exposing the aspie menace. Your day in the sun is nearing an end.
ExposeThemAll
11:08:14 AM Dec 6th 2011
edited by ExposeThemAll
[deleted]
jakyoku
topic
07:14:39 PM Oct 1st 2011
Is anyone else bothered by the frequent use of beige prose whenever a first-person narrator is on the autism spectrum? Should it be mentioned that a person who speaks in very quick direct sentences doesn't necessarily think in that manner as well?
Mauta
09:01:17 AM Feb 3rd 2012
Personally, I, having been diagnosed with AS, agree, i am much too cripplingly shy the majority of the time to use my ridiculous vocabulary, which, by the way i gained by reading to escape from all the bullies in my life. However, when in places i know are safe and around people i trust, or just online, i make full use of it in conversation just like i alwaus do din my mind.
KuroHalca
11:24:49 PM Nov 21st 2012
Agreed. I also have AS, and have been writing since I could read and can have a pretty colourful vocabulary when I want (even though I pretty much talk like any other kid my age does, using "like" and "bro" a lot). Never read any books from the POV of someone else who has it (mainly because I'm not very big on novels in general), but I can sort of imagine it and it'd bug me a lot.
ZenimaxShakespere
topic
12:21:49 AM Aug 29th 2011
edited by ZenimaxShakespere
Anyone else concerned about this being used as a common go-to insult on any site that doesn't enforce manners?

It's like there's a backlash against aspies, and I honestly cannot understand why. Is it intelliphobia?

This is made manifest mostly by the completely unfounded assertion that there is a massive force of trolls who say "Excuse me, I have Asperger's so that makes it okay." which I HAVE NEVER SEEN EVEN ONE IN THE DECADES* I HAVE BEEN ONLINE. To those that say so: put up or SHUT UP. Cite source or SHUT UP.

  • The Internet has been around longer than you think.
Acritidiy
04:56:15 PM Sep 12th 2011
It's as equally well founded as your own anecdotal evidence. A hell of a lot of people claim to have aspergers syndrome regardless of their actual mental health - or lack thereof - hence the irritation with how common it seems.

And bollocks about being 'intelliophobia'. Asperger's is not a super power that gives you amazing intelligence, nor does anyone rage at people who claim to have it for that reason.
ExposeThemAll
11:25:39 AM Oct 6th 2011
edited by ExposeThemAll
@Acritdy I totally agree! How dare those assburgers and their filthy apologists complain about people saying bad crap about them, and how dare they and their dirty apologists NEEDLESSLY defend them. Just like how women have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL sexism, gay people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL homophobia, and black people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL racism. No cognitive dissonance there at all.
SirLogiC
02:46:12 AM Feb 7th 2012
@Expose Them All- Care to give a link to just 1 person claiming to have AS, on any public forum, anywhere on the Internet, and using it as en excuse for bad behaviour? I've never seen it and I have been on the internet for a while. Please enlighten me.

About sexism- there is a very clear, obvious and measurable difference in the wages of males and females working in equivalent roles. Or you could look up the public school funding for state schools and compare that to the ratio of "black" people in the school's region (in the U.S. of course). As for this homophobia- "faggot", "fag", "poofter", "homo" are all used as insults, all refer to homosexuality, it's not a coincidence.

As a general thing aspie's like to "know" things, while most people seem content to just "know about" them. That extends to wanting other people to "know" instead of just "know about". So I want to "know" who are these people that are trolls and using it as an excuse to be a jerkass, just "knowing about" them existing is not enough. I also want that this page be a true reflection of AS so other people can "know" the real circumstances of AS, so unless this proof can be shown I think the trolls<=>AS part should be removed.
DoctorDetective
05:49:00 PM Aug 9th 2012
It's a documented fact that Asperger's tends to coincide with above average intelligence.

@Expose Them All, I've never seen anyone try to use it as an excuse for anything. I've seen it used to explain behavior, usually accompanied by an apology and a noticeable effort to fix the offending behavior, though.

Also, you're a troll.
JohnimusPrime
12:12:53 AM Feb 6th 2013
"It's a documented fact that Asperger's tends to coincide with above average intelligence."

Turnabout is fair play. Can I see that documentation? And frankly, even if this is true, to equate anti-Aspie sentiment with intelliphobia is to implicitly say that high intelligence and Aspergers are the same thing, which is patently not true. It also just comes across as saying "you're just jealous because I'm totes a genius!"

And Expose Them All is clearly trolling, though, considering the subject matter, one would be forgiven for not realizing that.

As far as the question at hand, I think it's less a matter of people pretending to have AS to excuse their bad behavior, and more a matter of people assuming they have it because they are socially awkward and fancy themselves a misunderstood genius. I'm sure that they genuinely do think that they have AS, but without a diagnosis, it really is not "explaining" behavior at all. Until you have a diagnosis, everybody else has no choice but to assume that you don't have AS, and behavior is just...bad behavior. And I could, in fact, give an example of at least one person, on This Very Wiki, who thinks they have AS but are reluctant to be diagnosed. I would rather not have to go tracking down the exact post right at this moment.

And why are people reluctant to be sympathetic? Well, when somebody has said or done something that offends you, when they tell you, for all intents and purposes, that they couldn't help it, whether true or not, that's kind of a bitter pill. Also, when someone has been offended, they frankly do not care what the reason is. They don't want an explanation, they just want the apology. Explanations always sound like excuses, regardless of whether or not they are true, or whether or not they actually do excuse the offending behavior. They don't care why you offended them, they just want to know that you're sorry, and that it won't happen again. My advice is to leave off the explanation, unless they ask you point blank why you paid no heed to their feelings.
Ymirsdaughter
07:03:45 AM Aug 17th 2014
I want to tell them to stop taking everything so fucking personally. Not everyhing is about them.
Athena13
topic
03:51:08 AM Feb 15th 2011
edited by Athena13
As I said over on the Ambiguously Autistic discussion page, that whole thing about us being uncomfortable with lying is just plain wrong. It may manifest in some individuals, but it also manifests in some NT people too. Not to mention it just sort of makes us look like perfect little angels. I know some people want to see us that way, but it's just inaccurate. When showing accuracy, you have to take the bad with the good. We don't want to be whitewashed here, just shown as we are. And a lot of us are very gifted liars and very good at it.
217.174.67.70
04:17:52 AM Feb 18th 2011
edited by SquallLionheart
Deleted as possibly inappropriate.
spaceswillberemoved1
08:43:35 AM Feb 21st 2011
edited by spaceswillberemoved1
Sorry if this is in the wrong spot, I just need to publicly respond to yet another "there are THOUZUNDS of evil assburgers who use asperger's as a license to be a typical Internet user" comment:

Their post: "Calling someone an autist is new, but autistic/ass-burger are long-standing insults ever since some kids decided 'I have Asperger's (citation needed), and so did some smart people (citation needed), I AM A GENIUS (forget citation, it's a delusion)? AND HAVE AN EXCUSE TO BE A FUCKWIT!'"

My response: So... where are these wannabeaspies? Could someone point them out (aka throwing Citation Needed right back in your face)? There HAS to be legions of them for the insult to be in such common vernacular (meaning one or two outlier examples are insufficient).

Or is it as I suspect: just a mostly-nonexistent BOOGIEMAN* used to uphold a bullcrap position, not unlike the munchkin, the black metal elitist, and the dorm-prowling rapist hiding in every bush.

Until you lippy jerkoffs — incapable of even a speck of creativity in your entire lives — come forth and prove me wrong, I'm going with my conclusion of you being insensitive PRICKS.

  • I tried very hard not to say 'strawman' even though it is factually accurate.
Acritdy
04:28:24 AM Feb 26th 2011
Uh, yeah, posts like this are why it has such a bad rep. It's the needless whiteknighting and over-aggressive defensive against perceieved, hypothetical slights.
Athena13
11:48:51 AM Feb 27th 2011
Not to mention that it has the assumption that anyone claiming Asperger's to get out of being a dickwad must not actually have it, which is patently false. Plenty of people use legitimate diagnoses and actual research to back up their fuckwittery. It doesn't make them RIGHT, but it does happen, and I don't think we should ever doubt someone's diagnosis in such a way just because they call attention to the more unpleasant aspects of being an Aspie.

Also, you with just the ISP name, lying has always come naturally to me. Every professional I've seen since 1996 has agreed that I've got legit Asperger's. Sociopathy has never once entered into it, even before my diagnosis. Honestly, this website is the only one I've ever seen that tries to insist otherwise.
Azkyroth
02:37:28 AM Jul 14th 2011
edited by Azkyroth
I think the idea is that for a lot of people it's mentally taxing and disconcerting in logistic terms (I have that experience, certainly), not that people on the spectrum don't feel the urge to.

By the way, the key distinction between Asperger's and Autism, as I understand it, is developed and often continuingly impaired verbal communication: people with Autism are more likely to need special therapies to learn to talk and interact with others at all, whereas people with Asperger's are likely to dive right into a conversation and kill it in a line or two.
JonnyB
03:29:12 AM Jul 14th 2011
edited by JonnyB
"... and kill it in a line or two." That made me laugh out loud. So true! I've learned to be a fairly social animal, but I can still kill a conversation cold if I'm not paying attention and let the inherent traits of wanting to dominate the convo with some lame thing that only I am interested in take over.

As for lying, I am an Aspie that has a really hard time with it. Although I can say that I've learned to be better at it over time (as with all things Aspie, the up-side to our syndrome is that we have the gifts necessary to learn to overcome most of our symptoms if we apply ourselves), it is still something that isn't natural to me; I generally tell the truth, even when it comes out blunt. (I've learned tact but I'm not good at it.) You're right, it is easier to tell the truth; lying takes effort (and a certain amount of skill). The downside of this is that I'm also fairly incapable of telling when someone is lying to ME, and tend to be overly trusting, and therefore often gullible.

Regarding the dickwards and trolls hiding under the cloak of Aspergers' Syndrome: Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of the media playing up Aspies as crazies, and getting equally tired of scriptkiddies and hackwits using Aspergers as an excuse for just plain poor behavior. As for me, I was instilled with a strong sense of moral behavior, a code of honor if you will, from an early age, and to me, my Aspergers merely intensified the need to hold to that code, as I didn't understand normal interpersonal interactions but this code I did understand. These trolls that use Aspergers as an excuse to be jerks disgust me; they have no honor.
ZenimaxShakespere
12:19:37 AM Aug 29th 2011
"These trolls that use Aspergers as an excuse"

Give examples, as I've never seen one. In fact, it is my belief that it is little more than a boogeyman to discredit those who have asperger's by assigning them imaginary villains. It's really no different than the hate smear campaigns against gays by saying they're responsible for AIDS.
Acritidiy
04:57:55 PM Sep 12th 2011
No, it's completely different. I don't recall any aspies being dragged out of their homes and killed over it, or lynched, or victimised in the streets. This kind of hyperbolic, self-gratifying comparison is precisely why claims of ASPERGERS! get a bad name.
jakyoku
07:07:51 PM Oct 1st 2011
"Victimized in the streets."

Maybe not in the streets, but in the halls? Have you ever been forced to be in a special education room? Do you know what kind of shitstorm that brings? Unfortunately, anyone who saw you entering the room, or getting off of a short bus, or heard that you did either of the two will harass you relentlessly.
ExposeThemAll
11:23:48 AM Oct 6th 2011
edited by ExposeThemAll
@Acritdy I totally agree! How dare those assburgers and their filthy apologists complain about people saying bad crap about them, and how dare they and their dirty apologists NEEDLESSLY defend them. Just like how women have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL sexism, gay people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL homophobia, and black people have a bad rep because they complain about HYPOTHETICAL racism. No cognitive dissonance there at all.
JonnyB
01:25:15 AM May 31st 2012
@Zenimax Shakespere I wasn't referring to people in this forum; I'm speaking of in the media, you hear of such and such a person committing a crime, then they say they have Aspergers as if somehow that makes what they did alright. I see it in the news all the time; recently it seems to have become a fad to do something odious and then say "Aspergers" to try to excuse it. Or the media will pin it on the person, as if that makes it ok, like saying "they're just retarded" used to be, now it's "they just have Aspergers."
Robrecht
topic
07:25:04 PM Jan 28th 2011
Hmmmm.

I'm a certified... Something for which there is no english word.

'Ervaringsdeskundige' in Dutch. Which translates literally into the singularly unhelpful 'Experience Expert' or contextually into the somewhat misleading 'Hands-On Expert'.

Essentially I'm someone with Asperger's Syndrome who's been to school to learn to verbalize my own personal experiences with the social handicap (and indeed it's a social, not a mental handicap) in combination with more theoretical knowledge on the subject in a way to make the matter more clear to people who lack that experience or advocate on behalf of those who do, but find it difficult to be heard. Basically I'm what happens when a progressive health-care system like that of the Netherlands gets enthusiastic about people like Temple Grandin.

Would anyone mind if I did some work on this page, even if it modifies some things other Aspies put in? Actually... I just realized I may be too... Socially adapted already just by asking that on an 'anyone can edit' wiki. So I'll just go ahead and edit a bit and try not to completely rewrite the page in my enthusiasm.

There's some things, especially with regards to Hans Asperger and the supposedly 'recent' classification as Asperger's as a form of Autism (It's not, by the way. I own a copy of the DSM-IV and I've read drafts of the DSM-5. Asperger's has always been listed as a form of Autism in the DSM-IV which introduced it. The DSM-5 just does away with the sub-classifications and acknowledges Autism as a 'Spectrum Disorder' with many, many non-defined grades). That change was important because in the field some professionals were basing the aid they were willing to offer (and some insurances or health plans the aid they were willing to subsidize) on which sub-classification of the ASD a patient had. And because the Autism Spectrum is a Spectrum this lead to a lot of people not being able to get the care they needed whilst at the same time getting therapies and council for things they didn't need help with.
nuclearneo577
07:30:20 PM Jan 28th 2011
Sure. If you can update it that would be great.
Robrecht
08:33:44 PM Jan 28th 2011
The things I've changed so far (and those being the only parts I feel comfortable editing without first proposing the change here):

"He called them "Little Professors" due to their ability to memorize facts. AS, as it is abbreviated, is on the autism spectrum. It shares many similarities with autism as a whole, but there a few differences. As of February 2010, Asperger's has been officially listed as a form of autism and not a separate disorder by the American Psychiatric Association."

I've changed this to put Hans into a bit more positive light (the man was pretty much the patron saint and founder of the modern they 'Autism rights' movement, by virtue of being one of the few respected men in his time willing to believe that people with Autism were capable of actually achieving something).

I've changed 'It shares many similarities with autism as a whole, but there a few differences.' (not enough, I now realize), because AS does not 'share many similarities with autism as a whole', is is Autism so saying it 'shares similarities' is as redundant as saying 'a word shares many similarities with a string of letters' and there are not 'a few differences', there are a few things that are distinct about it as a classification, to keep the 'word <-> letters' analogy it would be like saying there are differences between a 'word' and 'a string of letters' (which of course there aren't, 'words' are simply a form of 'strings of letters')

I've changed the part about the DSM to reflect that:

1. The change with regards to AS as a classification isn't official until the DSM-5 is actually finalized and published. Though unlikely, it may still change.

2. That Asperger's Syndrome has never NOT been considered a form of Autism and was never considered a separate disorder, only a classification.

I removed the mention of the APA. Though I wouldn't mind the mention being returned for clarity, I couldn't find a place to put it in without disrupting the flow of the sentence.
FastEddie
moderator
09:37:49 PM Jan 28th 2011
Starting to get too Wikipedia-like. Useful notes are meant to be useful for understanding how to treat the topic in a story. Stuff like pending DSM-5 entries is too granular. I'll do a little whittling on it.
Robrecht
05:33:07 AM Jan 29th 2011
I agree with a cutting it down a bit Eddie, but right now the page reads as if Asperger's is just the 'official' term for Autism (if you read between the line and get the wrong message).

Also no. The Main Useful Notes entry makes it clear that Useful Notes are meant to be useful for understanding how a topic works, not just in stories, but in 'reality' too. Mostly, I guess, because Biographies, Autobiographies, Documentaries and Encyclopedias use and have Tropes too. The whole DSM-5 part is important to know when you're comparing pre-February 2010 to post-February 2010 books about Autism (of which there are metric shitloads) since some writers who've noticed the declassification of Autism will stop using the term 'Asperger's Syndrome', while other writers are going to ignore it and keep talking about Asperger's.
antva
07:16:02 AM Jan 29th 2011
edited by SquallLionheart
As I noted above, I'm autistic, with a few more add-ons on top, so although I definitely am within the spectrum, I'm most definitely not a good representative to go by, and autistic have very different personalityíes the same as everybody else, but do you think that my attempt at listing the symtoms from my experiences with other autistic and myself to be reasonably clarifying? Your apparently greater expertise would be greatly appreciated.
Robrecht
07:25:57 PM Jan 29th 2011
edited by Robrecht
Let me say first off that my expertise is in no way greater. I've had some training in verbalizing it for people who don't know what it's like to be me (i.e. everyone who isn't me), but there are millions of people who are much better experts on their own Autism than I am.

Any way, I disagree (not generally since we share views on politics, the Vorkosigan Saga and several other things, but for now what matters is that I disagree on this issue) with Eddy when it comes to whether or not this page should provide an in depth look into the Disorder. By all accounts it should, because there is no such thing as a 'cliff notes' version of Asperger's Syndrome or the Autism Spectrum. And I bring that up, because I feel that yes, your input is clarifying. Though I do feel you might, on the whole, be a bit too bleak on the prospects.

Suicide for instance isn't more likely in kids with Autism/Asperger's for no reason than that they're watched more closely. However statistics do show children and adults with Autism have more 'suicidal tendencies'. This is because tests on the subject are dumb not direct and people with Autism are honest. When a test asks 'Have you thought seriously about suicide?' every Autist in the world will answer 'yes' unless they realize that what the question is really asking is 'do you plan and want to commit suicide'. Likewise such a test does not take into account that if you get a question about suicide in a test, you will be thinking about suicide, so if the test asks 'have you been thinking about suicide in the last week' the answer is also always 'yes'. So yeah. Skewed results, not as bleak as it seems.

Any way, I'll make it a personal project to improvify the page over the next month or so, starting with combining the current first and fourth traits ('Delays in social interaction' and 'lack of social empathy') into a single trait, since both stem from the same source and are basically the same thing (and I in no way suggest this as the title for the trait): Lack of 'aping'. Essentially the fact that Autists, Aspies included, learn the meaning of non-verbal communication cognitively (by thinking 'This man is doing something with his face, which I have learned is called 'a frown'. What does this mean? Last time he made this face he said he was angry, but the time before that he said he was confused. When he was angry, his voice was loud. His voice now is not loud. This man is confused. Why is he confused?') rather than 'subconsciously' ('Ah, that man didn't understand what I just said.'). Now to find a way to formulate that so it doesn't make us sound... Well... Stupid.

I am also going to add Autism vs. Asperger's i.e. the fact that some Aspies don't (want people to) think they're Autistic and why back in because quite simply it's a useful note on Asperger's. Though the bit about the DSM doesn't need to be part of that.
antva
12:46:23 AM Jan 30th 2011
edited by SquallLionheart
Deleted as possibly inappropriate.
vp21ct
04:43:03 PM Jan 30th 2011
I know that this is a comment more suited for Troper Tales, but, there isn't one for here, so I'm putting this here...

Whoever made this, thank you, thank you so much. As an Aspie, I often have difficulty describing what it's really like to people who ask me about it. And... I'm really glad that I can direct them somewhere and say "Yes, this is what it's like, these are what I am like."

Thank you again...
antva
10:15:44 AM Jan 31st 2011
edited by SquallLionheart
Deleted as possibly inappropriate.
JonnyB
01:26:45 AM May 31st 2012
There's starting to be some opinion creep in the article, I think it needs to be overviewed in places.
Nigel
05:41:57 AM Feb 1st 2014
One thing I would add is that I am constantly asking myself in social situations, "Am I doing this right?" This unending self-examination is quite tiring and provokes a continual low-level anxiety. So all too often, it is simply easier to avoid socializing. For the last decade, I have had, quite literally, <I>no</I> social life outside of my family.
Acritdy
topic
04:25:30 AM Dec 31st 2010
Am I the only one who thinks the page quote is incredibly cringe-inducing? Oh, we're not very good at social skills but really really smart! doesn't seem to explain anything, or summarise the article in any way.
antvasima
10:10:19 AM Dec 31st 2010
No, you're not alone about it. It plays into misconceptions. In fact, I think certain partso f the page itself plays into misconceptions, which is why I made my own attempt with the list, but again I'm supposed to be "fully" autistic, so I'm not sure how much it differs.
Acritdy
01:19:28 PM Mar 9th 2011
Would anyone object if I removed the quote? The more I see it the more it gets on my tits. I still don't see how it's adding anything informative to the page.
UltimateChimera
topic
05:49:24 AM Dec 30th 2010
Wow, I've been wondering why I hate schadenfreude so much. Any other aspies learn something new about themselves from this page?
GamerAmI
02:10:55 PM Dec 30th 2010
Sorry if I'm missing something, but could you explain why you having AS explains you disliking schadenfreude?
antvasima
10:12:58 AM Dec 31st 2010
edited by RainbowTiger
High empathy; low filters; naturally honest and sincere; take things literally; extremely obsessive-compulsive; bombarded with constant intense hatred, distortions, sneer, ridicule that somehow assume that you actually do process and function in the same manner regular people do; anal-retentive and seeing almost everything in patterns including inconsistencies, insincerity, and full implications of moral systems and ideology; recurrently given mistreatment on a level that in sum total would actually be classified as torture by the Geneva convention, and so onwards...

It's not a good mixture combo, and in many cases "growing thicker skin, and trying not to take things seriously" is already strainingly pushed as far as it can get, but there is a lot of attempted false cheer in the face of overwhelming bigotry going on, and there are apparently networks that attempt to build up systems for filtering the constant onslaught.

Of course, it would certainly have saved me an awful lot of time and effort to have had the information at hand from the start, so if the parents are attentive early, young autistic have the opportunity to get much better training to accommodate to it from the start.
Athena13
03:54:30 AM Feb 15th 2011
Really? Having bigotry piled on me at an early age made me LOVE schadenfreude. Empathy be damned.
217.174.67.70
04:55:32 AM Feb 18th 2011
edited by SquallLionheart
I'm the opposite. The more people have bombarded me with unprovoked and distorted hatred and bigotry, the more I realise the necessity of the opposite; that torture and ideological sadism isn't the answer at all and won't help anybody, that all we have is each other, and our common focus should be our fight against nature, not each other.

At the same time true evil, not as the people infected, but as what it conceptually means must be exposed and defined to stop idealising and encouraging it (no, not by torturing it, that won't give any healing to yourself) and rather start breaking away from it. Of course instinctive lashout self-defense is far more understandable, and very far from true evil, you need systematic ideological sadism for that, but it should still preferably be avoided.
Azkyroth
02:35:36 AM Jul 14th 2011
I haven't learned anything new per se, but it's helped clarify and distill some things, vindicate others (I KNEW the fact that my narrow focus shifts over time wasn't a barrier to being "real" Asperger's when all the other symptoms are there in spades except to the extent I've learned to cope by trial and error)! I think the page is incredibly informative for people who aren't familiar with it, or worse, think they are...
w0nderfish
07:04:43 AM Aug 3rd 2011
This page helped me understand my boyfriend better actually. It puts a lot of stuff into some kind of context, and makes me feel slightly less neurotic about a crapton of stuff. Plus I couldn't help but chuckle at the notion that the more you hang around someone with Aspergers, you may start taking on some of their traits, because I swear it's slowly happening to me. Our reactions and discussions about the recent shootings in Norway would get us strange looks and would be frowned upon as an inappropriate response.
jate
topic
12:13:29 AM Oct 31st 2010
Isn't the schizoid personality disorder the personality disorder that most resembles aspergers syndrome, instead of the antisocial personality disorder? I've also read that narcissim and aspergers syndrome are often misdiagnosed as each other.
antvasima
08:01:41 AM Oct 31st 2010
edited by RainbowTiger
...Narcissism isn't a disability. I don't see how any professional doctor could get them confused. Anyway, it's also generally not about disliking interacting with people/being antisocial as such, as most autistic want experiences and to take part in the world, it's about not being able to connect in the head how to initiate or structure social contacts, and also extreme (but usually not shown in full) awkwardness/tension and mental exhaustion when having to fixate on someone else for prolonged periods. Greater additional problems can arise from unbelievably inefficient treatment approaches and overmedication of medicines developed for neurotypical brains, but isn't a fundamental definition as such.

Still, I was classified as autistic not as Aspergers, even before it merged into the main diagnosis this year (effectively making Aspergers an outdated term to use for the page title btw).
jate
05:37:15 PM Oct 31st 2010
edited by jate
So would switching the page title to autism be better?

I meant narcissisitic personality disorder. Here is the page I read about the connection between npd and aspergers syndrome. Aspergers syndrome is also mentioned on wikipedia, in the differential diagnosis section for schizoid personality disorder. Though now that I think about it the avoidant personality disorder probably has more in common than the schizoid.
antvasima
03:38:40 AM Nov 1st 2010
edited by SquallLionheart
Well, new information is appreciated, although the very limited text available on the linked page the author may or may not do a couple of downright dangerous "outsider looking in" assumptions, as the blurb text doesn't deal with that autism has plenty of severe diagnosis criteria beyond the social ones, and different autistic, who very much did have extremely visible multiple general dysfunctions since near-infancy, have very different personalities beyond the diagnosis, and ways of dealing with the condition.

Still, the author likely goes into better specifics inside the book, and might very well have a point about some misdiagnoses due to some thin surface layer overlap in this area, but things are not nearly as convenient and trivial as the book summary writer makes them.
jate
05:29:36 PM Nov 1st 2010
There already is a seperate page for high-functioning autism. The last time I looked at it, the page pretty much said most autistic people have high functioning autism and that the category was only made to help psychiatrists with the psychiatrist, parent, child relationship.
Azkyroth
09:24:41 PM Jun 1st 2011
"..Narcissism isn't a disability. Autism is more like fifty disabilities packed into one. I don't see how any professional doctor could get them confused."

The vast majority of my peers vocally assumed that my vocabulary, grades, and tendency to violate social norms reflected nothing except an oversized ego, and pretty much every child psychiatrist I ever saw had to, effectively, be dragged kicking and screaming away from the assumption that my being bullied was because I was "just a brat." Both narcissists and people on the spectrum tend to behave in ways that others find offensive, and many people on the spectrum are intellectually or artistically gifted and unapologetic about it, which an unreasonably unsympathetic listener could easily mistake for self-aggrandizement. I can see why a person with an arrogant disregard for what's actually going on in the minds of sufficiently "other" others wouldn't be interested in drawing this distinction.
chihuahua0
topic
03:55:45 PM Sep 19th 2010
Do you think it would be appropiate to set up a Troper Tales page for this?
SensuBean
08:02:44 AM Sep 20th 2010
edited by SquallLionheart
Deleted as possibly inappropriate.
Acritdy
08:16:51 AM Oct 6th 2010
Chris dude, a simple yes or no would have done.
FastEddie
moderator
08:20:45 AM Oct 6th 2010
No way. An in-depth examination of a disorder is just nowhere near what we are here for. All that sounds like it might be useful in a place where people are looking for that sort of thing. Just not here.
Forecharmer
10:51:33 AM Apr 25th 2011
Maby instead we could have a link to Wrong Planet somewhere on the page, so people can tell their tales there.
Azkyroth
02:33:09 AM Jul 14th 2011
Huh. Well, whether it's what you're here for or not, the page as it stands now is pretty much THE best "not just a clinical note sheet" description of the actual experience of being on the spectrum I've ever encountered. Keep it, it's wonderful. >.>
SensuBean
topic
07:01:23 AM Sep 10th 2010
edited by SquallLionheart
Deleted by the author as inappropriate.
165.21.240.246
12:11:21 AM Oct 4th 2010
just feel like Not Good with People could be added to the "Social Issues" point
Athena13
03:56:17 AM Feb 15th 2011
Why do you list emotional things under sensory? Those are very different things, as emotions aren't one of the five senses.
217.174.67.70
04:29:15 AM Feb 18th 2011
It's about the way the brain processes and emotionally reacts to the stimuli, not "super-senses", hence emotional.
back to UsefulNotes/AspergerSyndrome

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