Imperial knight
I came up with this idea some time back, but I didn't get much feedback;
I was thinking of adding the Black Hole Sue trope to the page on the Ishvara. After all, the definition of an Ishvara is a Fair Folk who has a powerful enough story that everyone is dragged into it, Black Hole Sue seems a good way to describe it.
Cut from Black-and-Grey Morality:
- Black-and-Gray Morality — Really, nobody's hands are clean. The savior of Creation is engaged to the Yozi of evil itself, and she joined forces with him because it was the only way she could find to save Creation.
This deserves to be cut for three reasons. While the Scarlet Empress may have sincerely believed the above, this reasoning qualify for the trope only if three things were true:
- Her actions (authoring the Broken Winged Crane, sacrificing Lillun to the Yozis, betraying all of Creation to Hell) were the only way available for her to extend her lifespan.
- Her death (of old age, which is what she feared) would actually doom Creation.
- Her current course of action (marrying the Ebon Dragon) will in fact save Creation.
None of the above is true.
As re: #1, hell, if Mnemon can find a Hearthstone of Immortality (which she entirely has, its on her character sheet in Scroll of Exalts), then what stopped Her Redness?
And as for #2, up until the writing of "Return of the Scarlet Empress", the entire Exalted game line was based on the premise that your characters would save Creation... hell, the only reason the Realm is self-destructing in her absence in the first place is because she specifically set it up to happen that way. In the normal course of events, Mnemon (or Cathak Cainan, or several others) would entirely have been capable of performing her duties, if Her Redness had previously named them as her acknowledged heir (to avoid the civil war problem) and added them to the authorized user list of the Sword of Creation.
As for point #3, marrying the Ebon Dragon is not only not saving Creation, it is the act that (if successfully completed) will specifically doom Creation to become indistinguishable from Malfeas and release the Yozis out to plunge the world into eternal darkness.
So while the Exalted universe positively abounds with examples of Black-and-Grey Morality, the Scarlet Empress' becoming the Queen of Hell is one of the few things in the setting that doesn't.
You'd have a good case arguing that her initial reign as the Scarlet Empress qualified as Black-and-Grey Morality, though. She actually did save Creation at the founding of the Realm, and worked to preserve it up until RY 762. Its the whole Queen of Hell thing where she loses that status, which is why I boggle at the Queen of Hell being given as an alleged example of that. There's nothing really morally ambiguous about being the keystone of a plot masterminded by the embodiment of pure selfish evil to turn the entire world into an eternity of pain. Especially not when the trope itself applies to protagonists, and she's one of the primary antagonists of RotSE.
Edited by 69.47.221.231 Hide / Show Replies
In Return of the Scarlet Empress, the authors suggest that you take two possible interpretations for Her Redness' goals. They do go out of their way to mention that if she retains her free will (i.e.: not an akuma), then playing her as somehow plotting against the yozis is perfectly fine. I'm not sure how much of it counts since it's just the "it's your world, chump, do what you want with it" maxim, but canon always helps.
Once more, with Stunts.
Not only that, but literally the only part of Rot SE that is canon is the Ebon Dragon's statblock.
I didn't want to add clutter so I'll ask here
- For many others, this was a Dethroning Moment Of Suck. The fact that it can turn into a Warstrider and Prince Lanesh make no sense to the established canon and was viewed as a giant retcon by half the base (see Broken Base).
What is this talking about? This is entirily new canon, and I don't see how it is a retcon to any existing canon.
"Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it." -Stephen Colbert Hide / Show Replies
I suppose what it means is "insertion of new canon that (they think) conflicts with existing canon", i.e. that the Sun is Unconquered.
Speculatin' here...
Prince Lanesh's story directly contradicts the established canon - that the Sun is Unconquered. As for the Daystar, this directly contradicts 1E Core and Games of Divinity (the Unconquered Sun IS the Sun. Daystar was an addition [by John Morke in Glories of the Most High] to him).
Since this is new canon and is developer approved, they kind of have to assume it's a retcon.
Edited by OneTimer
The link between Sun and Daystar isn't that simple. Sol Incarnate is as much the Daystar as the Daystar is Sol.
Glories, Page 16, disagrees, unfortunately. =(
That is to say, the Unconquered Sun and the Daystare are, indeed, seperate beings.
Edited by Broken1ne
To continue to the Edit War discussion from the main page, this is an example of Thread Mode. Whether or not it is factually accurate is not the point; it's still causing the article to argue with itself. Comments on Exalted's fandom go under the appropriate tropes, not as arguments against existing tropes. There's not exactly a paucity of Tropes to file this under. Also, keep in mind the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgment.
Also, re: Daystar and Unconquered Sun: They are both separate from one another and the same entity. It's a much more complex relationship than that implied by the Daystar's description in Glories, which was very short and lacking in relevant details; the Ink Monkeys article explained it much more clearly. While the Daystar is separate from the Unconquered Sun, it's not just an artifact attuned to the UCS; the Unconquered Sun would not exist without the Daystar, and vice versa. Their relationship is less "artifact and attuned" and more "two halves of the same whole".
Edited by ExplodingFrogs
The Daystar Finale makes it very clear they are different. They are not two halves of the same whole, they are two beings who have been conflated with one another.
"The Unconquered Sun and the Daystar have been conflated for a reason. At the very bottom of things, they were made together. They are intertwined. They have diverged, as history will show. The god is not the river. But this is less true for the Unconquered Sun. Before there was a “sun,” there was no Unconquered Sun; such an equation was not possible. Before the labors were completed, Sol Incarnate was not the Unconquered Sun; such a label would have been without merit. The Ebon Dragon produced the vessel of that incarnation, containing all the possibilities created by the Holy Tyrant (and more), but it was the Daystar which stood as the first and most basic and vital representation of all those qualities that the Unconquered Sun should stand for."
that's directly from their blog (post 42). They retconned it, no way around it. Prior to this, Games of Divinity was very clear that, unlike the the River God, the Incranae ARE the Incarnae. The Sun is the Sun. The Moon is the Moon.
Edited by Broken1ne
...I'm sorry, was that supposed to be an argument against the Daystar and the Unconquered Sun being tied on a fundamental level? Because I read it as advancing the opposite point; that the Daystar and the Unconquered Sun are much closer, metaphysically, than just a god and his domain.
It's not about them being tied. It's about them being the SAME. It says they're not. They are related, but they are not the same.
Games of Divinity outright said they are the same. One is not a representation of the other, and what would happen to one would happen to the other because they are the same.
The Daystar popped up to fill in a gap that wasn't there in the narrative. It's a retcon.
EDIT: The White Wolf Forum just added a great name for this, "Air-Breathing Mermaids." Don't give us a solution to a problem that did not exist until you introduced it. Don't tell me there are mermaids and then three books later give me an artifact so the mermaid can breath air, even though the original entry said nothing about them being unable to and even implied they can just fine.
The Daystar is an Air Breathing Mermaid.
Edited by Broken1ne
Whatever your opinion on the matter is, highly subjective tropes like DMOS should not be plastered on the main page. Moved to YMMV
So that only applies to this page?
Or, rather, only to this trope?
Why isn't CMOA moved to YMMV then too? Or Canon Sue? Or, hell, about 95% of these tropes?
Edited by Broken1ne
Canon Sue is moved to YMMV. And CMOA already has its own page.
And not everything is subjective. Sue tropes are, as are tropes like Wallbanger and DMOS and Scrappy and Wesley.
Edited by Peteman
I suspect that the problem they were actually trying to solve was that they felt that the Unconquered Sun, as written, was too much of a barrier maiden / load bearing boss compared to the other incarna and the primordials. IMO it's clear that the writers used Return of the Scarlet Empress, Glories of the Most High and the Daystar series as opportunities to answer questions they thought needed answering (statting up Primordials and Incarna, introducing Samsara to explain how prophecy works on creatures outside of fate, providing details on which Primordials created the Incarna and why they did it), retcon canon and joss fanon they disliked (toning down the consequences of killing the Incarna and establishig the sun as separate from the Unconquered Sun, opening up the Sidereal charmset etc.) and addressing problems resulting from those changes (describing the sun in Glories and the Daystar series after the Rot SE retcon, retconning the moon and the Maidens' stars for consistancy with the Daystar retcon). As for Prince Laashe, it could be argued that the defeat doesn't count because the Unconquered Sun's side won the battle with the aid of Luna, or that it doesn't count because Luna erased Prince Laashe from history. In other words, IMO the Daystar isn't an air breathing mermaid, it just looks like one because Glories was published before Rot SE.
That works except for ROTSE being a purely optional path to follow (and described as such, over and over). Since none of those issues exist WITHOUT Ro TSE, it seems more like an Air Breathing Mermaid issue to me.
(And Return is a pretty good product, IMO.)
Samsara was an... awkward kludge to handle the problem of fate clearly affecting things outside of it. It's something that quite a few members of the fans don't like (I'm neutral on it), but it was also something that pretty much had to come to pass because they wrote themselves into a hole before that. Samsara didn't get them OUT of that hole, it just attempted to make the best of an oops.
As for Prince Laashe... the Sun lost. Plain and simple. He LOST. Luna stepped in and cheated, but the Sun lost. He was conquered and Luna saved him. (And for how much they're playing up that he's Unconquered-not-Unconquerable, and Stuff Happens If You Conquer Him... this would seem like a retcon of their own retcons.)
Lastly, even if we could place the blame squarely on the publication order, that's STILL an Air Breathing Mermaid. Everything (related to this topic, NOT everything in Exalted) was working fine... then this introduces a problem we (the canon) never knew we had and goes out of its way to solve it. That's an Air Breathing Mermaid.
Edited by OneTimer
He didn't lose. Y Ou seem to be ignoring this part, but, Luna stepped in before the sun got desperate enough to shoot the FUCKHUGE SUPERLASOR that the Daystar happens to have. It likely woulda fried, oh, 50%+ of Creation.
But he woulda won.
No he would not have. I quote the Ink Monkeys:
"Nor could his Aegis avail him, as Laashe still had not set his forces upon Creation. Drawing in light such that he darkened the world, Laashe gathered his forces to seal the Unconquered Sun in a tomb of jade ripped from the womb of Creation. Ignis Divine dropped his Godspear as he fought against this entombment, and Laashe seized it, feeling his heart soar with triumph such that it only made him stronger." (Vol. 42)
He LOST. Luna stepped in to save him AFTER he lost.
Still ignoring my point, dude.
The Godspear is not the Daystar. He STILL HAD CONTROL OF THE DAYSTAR.
And in about 5 seconds, without Luna intervention, about half of Creation was about to be gone.
He was doing every last goddamn thing he could, before he sacked compassion and blew away most of humanity.
Ah, found the exerpt of the conversation. Had to go digging.
He's then clearly losing the fight against Laashe, when Luna steps in. He was conquered.
OR he was one hair away from snapping and ordering the Daystar to bombard the son of a bitch, souls or no souls, because he couldn't afford to be defeated.
In which case, he's as good as admitted defeat, because he cannot defeat Laashe. His purpose is unfulfilled, and he is personally responsible for mass murder inside of Creation. He's, again, beaten.
Seriously? "I can't win without any collateral damage or using my powers over my domain" means he lost?
Wow. This is a ... surprising point of view.
Personally when a fighter obliterates the opponent without any significant damage or loss by using nothing but his own personal might, I consider it a win. Maybe that point of view isn't as wide spread as I thought.
He coulda won. It woulda been nasty, and bloody, and a fucking mess.
But he'd still have his title.
Edited by 69.19.14.34
Ehh...
I have to agree with Borked. That was a fix that John introduced after only because he realized what he wrote when someone called him to the floor on it. He came up with that justification only after being called out that TUS lost.
Plus, with the whole Daystar-and-Sun-are-different vibe the monkeys introduced, the Unconquered Sun could fire the Daystar and still have lost. Why? Because he's not the Daystar, he just commands it. So if he's beaten and then fires it... he's still beaten.
@69.19.14.34
Ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? It's not really a victory.
Official Tesladyne Employee TM
Cut from the Did Not Do The Research:
- Similarly, at least one of the authors of 1ed's "The Autochthonians" had a few issues with the difference between 'Malfeans' and 'Neverborn'. They're related, yes, but they're not the same.
That was back when they were trying too hard to connect the Wo D and Exalted universes... and somehow, Malfeas was a place in the Umbra associated witht the Wyrm, while the Malfeans were the dark gods of Wraith also called the Neverborn. It wasn't as much of a bother for those two games b/c not everyone played both, but when you have them all in the same book and don't think to content edit, you run into that type of problem. Less a Did Not Do The Research, more trying too hard at Canon Welding.
The Fearless Leader
The last line was more because I was the one who first added that example without realising that The Autochthonians was 1e.
You are dazzled by my array of very legal documents.
Should we add a Characters page. There are a lot of them floating around the setting.
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It's been mentioned. Like I said then, if someone else starts it up, I'll contribute to it.
The Fearless Leader
How far should a character's page go? Like... all the characters listed in the last chapters of the Compasses?
Every character/organization that has a trope associated with them should be added, and in Exalted that would be everyone.
Excellencies are mentioned on this page as an efficient use of motes. Surely that can't be right - if excellencies were the most efficient way of attacking, social combat, etc. then the rest of stuff is much weaker.
In many situations the other charms have a specific effect that is cheaper that doing exactly the same thing with an excellency.
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The EXACT quote: "They are also the ones you'll most likely be using the most and tend to be very efficient, Essence-wise" It doesn't say the MOST efficient, but VERY efficient, which is true - you're spending a mote on a die or two motes on a guaranteed success in addition to whatever you roll, for Solar-class Exalts. And they can be applied to more situations than specific charms. For example, Ghost Eating Technique far outshines a Melee Excellency for getting rid of a spiritual being and may be the only way to do it, but the Melee Excellency allows you to have a better chance, if not a guarantee, of hitting said spirit with said GET, thus ensuring that the motes of GET aren't wasted, AND that same Excellency can then be applied to the Sorcerer who summoned the demon. Other charms have a wider range of effects that can come up, but an Excellency in a related ability can often make sure that the effect actually means something.
The Fearless Leader
There's a reason "Craftsman Needs No Tools plus (choice of Excellency)" is a standard Craft combo.
Only for people who start crafting before they get Craft Essence Flow (required for Wonder Forging Genius as printed in Oadenal's Codex - don't even get me started on the one printed in Wonders of the Lost Age requiring Infinite Craft Mastery (WORTHLESS)).
clockwork romance device
Is anyone else interested in creating a character page with me? It would probably go a long way toward cleaning up this page. If not I'll go ahead and do it myself.
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If someone makes a character page, I'll contribute to it, but I don't feel like going through the work of starting one from scratch.
Ditto. I'll contribute as much as I can, but I don't know how to make the page.
The Fearless Leader
Cut the following:
- Actually, that's not quite how it goes. Once an Infernal creates a new charm for himself, his governing Yozi immediately learns it too (page 101, Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals). As a result, Yozis will encourage the Green Sun Princes to create charms, so as to have an advantage over each other.
I've also clarified the point this was replying to, as I can see why the editor thought this was true. To be perfectly clear: this would be correct if we weren't discussing Heretical Charms in that particular bullet point, as the Heretical keyword specifies in as many words that the Yozis can't learn them.
On the Infernal Exalted, Akuma and P Cs issue:
The Infernal Manual of Exalted Power specifically addresses the possibility of Akuma P Cs. Essentially, the way it works is that the Yozi that controls the Akuma replaces said Akuma's Motivation with an Urge, which works just the same. Sometimes, the Urge is "Obey (Yozi) in all things", which is indeed deeply deprotagonising, but it's sometimes something more like "Cause Gem to be destroyed in a tremendous explosion." In these cases, the Akuma has to do that, but they have a little more free will and judgement over precisely how they do it, and the Manual specifically says that lets you play Akuma P Cs.
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The entire description of Infernal Exalted ("Leaders of the Reclamation", having the potential to become Primordials themselves) is clearly referring to Green Sun Princes; akuma are nothing more than slaves and have no such status. Inserting them so clumsily is misleading.
Akuma aren't really a splat of their own, in any case. They're a template that can be applied to any other Exalt (save GSPs, of course).
Edited by ExplodingFrogs
OK, fair enough, but the book refers to them as Infernal Exalted. I'll have a think about this one, and I may throw up a few more suggestions here.
Perhaps change the line from "The Infernal Exalted,(a.k.a. Green Sun Princes and Akuma)" to "The Green Sun Princes"? And then perhaps, in the description, say "The most important form of Infernal Exalted" or something like that?
That'd work, although it does slightly spoil the symmetry of the thing.
I believe this is what you're looking for: http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/blogs/freelancers/archive/tags/ink+monkeys/default.aspx
I'm rather inexperienced with this site, so I'll leave it up to someone else to add the link to the main page.
I feel like the header to this page isn't organized particularly well. How necessary is it really to launch into a full paragraph of text for each faction when we already have a separate trope page for races? Compare to the toplevel works pages for D&D or 40K, where the page header is primarily about the media that make up the canon and any information aside from a brief synopsis of the universe is put in a collapsible tag. I propose we move everything from the second paragraph to the first dotted line into a tag, probably located where the second dotted line currently is.