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Unhari
topic
03:02:56 PM Sep 30th 2014
I am well aware that this is going to ruin someone's day, so sorry about that, but in the recap of Season 3, Episode 1, "The Magnificent Seven," the four dead humans haven't been added to the running casualty tally, which makes the tally four short on every single recap page from then on... I'd fix it myself, but I've only just started season 3, and the web is dark and full of spoilers. -U
Morgenthaler
topic
11:35:10 AM Jun 16th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
With the recent changes to the Super Weight and Jesse Turner examples I reconsidered the ranking of the characters' powers and abilities in the show, and thought I'd open a discussion. The Super Weight scale for the show in general needs some updating, as a lot of characters are in odd positions. Warning, long post.

First off, Jesse Turner is not necessarily less powerful than Lucifer. I checked the episode he appears in again, and it sort of contradicts itself. On the one hand Castiel says that Jesse grows stronger with Lucifer's presence. He also directly says that at full power, Jesse will destroy the entire Host of Heaven with a single word. That easily puts him in Type 5 territory. Can Lucifer do this himself? I don't know. And if the power is derived from him, why does he need Jesse as a weapon in the first place? I also see a bit of a problem with treating a one-shot character who suffered Chuck Cunningham Syndrome (he didn't just put himself on a bus, he just completely vanished from existence, and nobody, not even Lucifer, ever mentions him again) as integral to the show's mythology.

I can see Sam and the Prophets as Type 2s (as powerful as regular humans with small supernatural abilities), but the Demons and the Ghosts are clearly Type 3s (complete supernatural powers). ALL demons are Type 3s, as even the foot soldiers show things like people-hurling telekinesis and Demonic Possession. The ghosts vary a bit, but they're also usually Type 3s, again with telekinesis, plus intangibility and sometimes possession. Monsters are a really varied lot. Some are more type 2s, other type 3s, but lumping them all into one section like that seems wrong.

The Angels are difficult. Depowered Angels are clearly type 2. They're human, but can see demon faces and hear Angelic voices. Regular Angels are all clear-cut Type 3. I'd be fine with moving the Archangels up to type 5, as Raphael blacks out the Eastern Seaboard when he manifests on Earth, and Lucifer's rise immediately sets off a chain of disaster events. Gabriel throws Sam and Dean into a pocket dimension, and Sam in a time loop. Their actual combat powers don't seem over Type 4 though, so it's a bit of a wash. As for the Seraphs, there are only two more-or-less confirmed examples, Zachariah and Castiel. Do either of them really show the kind of abilities that would make them type 4s, as in cause large-scale disasters by themselves? Zachariah may have trapped Dean in another pocket dimension, or he may have just used time travel. As for Castiel being wary of Lucifer and Michael when he's in god mode, I'm not quite sure how much of a threat they'd be to him at that point. He blew up their brother simply by snapping his fingers. Granted that Michael and Lucifer are more powerful than the other two archangels, but we don't how large the power disparity between them is.

Sorry for the detailed post, but that's the problem you get with a long-running continuity. As more mythology gets added things start to become blurry or even contradict each other, and the mythology becomes increasingly harder to reconcile.
fakescorpion
02:35:32 AM Jun 18th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
From a few online sources. Like Supernatural Wikia. Check Jesse Turner's individual powers on different pages, they explain in more detail. He has two abilities that "might" put him in type5. 1. Nigh-Omnipotence: Jesse Turner has this ability "only with Lucifer's physical presence on Earth" 2. Reality Warping: Again, it was listed as "made extremely powerful following Lucifer's presence on Earth" 3. Teleportation- Jesse Turner is listed as Average Teleporters (third class) when high tier demons and ALL angels are at least Advanced Teleporters (second class), while Seraph and Archangels are ALL Higher Teleporters (first class) Note that most of his more impressive abilities require Lucifer's presence on Earth.

Castiel did say that Jesse could potentially destroy the Heavenly Host easily, but you have to remember that 99.9% of the Host is average angels. However, there is a huge power gap between Seraphs and angels that most people do not realize.

Here are a few Seraph abilities that normal angels don't have: 1. Memory Manipulation 2. Limited Conjuring/Reality Warping 3. Power Removal (Also note that Castiel perform this on Fred Jones, a powerful Reality Warper like Jesse.) 4. Teleportation first class 5. Advanced Healing (including monster infections) 6. Telepathy 7. Resurrection (seemingly unlimited, but hinted to still be limited by the "Natural Order") 8. And they keep all their powers even when totally cut off from Heaven.
Morgenthaler
06:16:25 PM Jun 18th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
They make a compelling case, although I do have to question some of their conclusions. Reading all of it, they seem prone to making a number of wide assumptions not definitively supported in canon and have more to do with inconsistency in the way the Angels are portrayed. That would be a very lengthy debate however, and better suited for a Supernatural forum or that wiki's talk pages. For the purposes of this wiki I'm trusting their conclusions on that.

Here's the redrawn list:

fakescorpion
02:39:22 AM Jun 22nd 2013
Why is Men of Letters Type3?
Morgenthaler
02:57:25 AM Jun 24th 2013
May need some specification. Fully-inducted members like Henry can seemingly perform powerful feats of magic, such as using their own soul to travel through time. Since Henry is the only one we see do this, it might be best to limit it to just him.
Larkmarn
05:40:43 AM Jun 24th 2013
That's not really on par with what we see most other level 3 characters do. And it's just one thing. For the most part, they're the same as level 2.
Morgenthaler
01:41:24 PM Jun 24th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Agreed. I amended the list again, with some additional recurring creatures in this Fantasy Kitchen Sink.

Larkmarn
08:01:37 AM Jun 25th 2013
Crowley should probably go onto tier 4.

And does Metatron really deserve Tier 5? If I recall correctly his most impressive display of power was teleporting Kevin away from Crowley.
Morgenthaler
01:08:55 AM Jun 26th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
I'm wondering if the archdemons (Azazel, Lillith, Alastair, Samhain, Crowley, Abaddon) shouldn't all be moved to type 4. Their individual accumulative powers are usually so vast that they could level most of a town if they wanted to, especially with their white light energy blasts and their advanced telekinesis and pyrokinesis.

Yeah, the note markup doesn't work in discussion. Here's the content for context:

  • Metatron: As the Scribe of God, he has enough innate knowledge to affect events on an almost cosmic scale.
  • God: May be either Type 6 or Type 7 depending on the exact nature of his relation with Creation, the Natural Order and Death.

The thing with Metatron is that despite being a low-ranking angel, he was witness to Creation, and all that knowledge is ingrained in his celestial mind, which the immensely powerful Archangels can't claim. He had to perform a fairly complicated ritual, but as we saw he could rid Heaven of Angels entirely, and that's not the only one of God's "great levers".
Morgenthaler
01:42:57 PM Jul 3rd 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
Since it's been a week, I'm posting a third write-up of the scale. If there are no objections within another week, I'll update the old entry with this one.

Larkmarn
01:52:40 PM Jul 3rd 2013
If that gets him to tier 5, wouldn't Kevin be there too since he knows how to banish all demons/angels from Earth? I just feel like it inaccurately represents his power since Metatron knows how to do things, but he can't actually do them on his own. All he can do is activate a trap that's already in place.
Morgenthaler
02:22:36 PM Jul 3rd 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
Compelling argument. Pure knowledge seems too iffy to work with for the purposes of the scale next to physical power. A character could potentially have as much knowledge as God and still be able to do nothing more to their environment than any other human, making them type 2 at best. Same with Oracles and Seers. I've amended the write-up by removing him to reflect this.
Morgenthaler
03:15:50 AM Jul 10th 2013
With no further comments I assume a concensus has been reached, and have adjusted the SW examples accordingly.
Laecy
topic
03:22:11 AM May 1st 2013
Deggans Rule/Bechdel Test

Can we just agree that a series with two white brothers as the protagonists is never going to have two or more non-white members of the main cast, and rarely will feature women not interacting with or discussing the heroes? Short of some kind of body switching thing I guess.

Anyway, it just seems redundant to list these as failed under every single episode recap. I didn't want to start an edit war, so I thought I'd bring it up here before trimming the entries out.
Nithael
04:47:38 AM May 2nd 2013
I don't think Deggans Rule and the Bechdel Test are to be listed under every single episode recap, especially if they fail.
RegShoe
12:58:43 AM Jun 9th 2014
Just made this comment myself on the recap discussing. I think putting them on the main trope list is fine, but it seems like a low blow on the show to keep hammering on it, particularly given the fact that there are plenty of good female and non-white characters, we just have two male white leads.
Endolise
topic
02:21:15 PM Feb 19th 2013
On the Recap page, can somebody please change the link for the Season 8 episode "Torn And Frayed" from "Tom And Frayed" to its proper name? I would do it myself, but can't for the life of me figure out how.
Morgenthaler
09:10:57 AM Mar 22nd 2013
You can ask the mods to change it into a custom title, but this would only change the way it is displayed around the wiki, not the link itself. The only way to really correct something like that is to move the page to the proper name.

I performed the move, corrected the wicks, and added the old page to the Cutlist.
faiteslebruit
topic
06:44:41 PM Oct 10th 2012
What happened to all of the Headscratchers? Something like half the page is missing. Were they deleted for some reason?
AirmanEpic
topic
08:55:37 PM Sep 19th 2012
I'm trying to think of the name of the trope where Ruby possesses "Jane Doe" the comatose patient who had recently died; I want to say convenient coma but I'm not sure... any ideas?
Nohbody
topic
06:32:53 AM Apr 29th 2012
I Got Better was renamed to Unexplained Recovery due to misuse inspired by its Stock Phrase nature. As I've not watched the show, I have to ask whether the following entry really fits Unexplained Recovery, one of the other "return from death" tropes, or doesn't really apply at all.

* IGotBetter: This tends to happen a lot. Although usually not without a huge amount of pain and agony behind it.
CCGFTW
02:18:04 PM Aug 27th 2012
I would say the show doesn't really have any big unexplained recovery, yeah sure, Sak and Dean har come back from death/extreme injury/ect. a ton of times, but it's almost always justified...
faiteslebruit
topic
06:59:48 PM Jan 6th 2012
edited by faiteslebruit
Was anyone else more than a little bummed when the episode "Monster Movie" made it canon that Supernatural and The X-Files do not take place in the same universe? Maybe it was just me, but I actually thought that episode was a shout-out to the X-Files episode "The Post-Modern Prometheus." Seriously, watch both episodes and tell me Supernatural did not follow that format to a T. Both were references to classic monster movies/novels (Frankenstein in the X-Files, Dracula in Supernatural, not to mention both episodes were shot in black and white), and both were lighter and softer episodes of otherwise angsty shows. Jim Beaver even appeared in an X-Files episode, and his role as a coroner in that episode totally meshes with the fact that hunters tend to adopt different personas for a case. If I'm not mistaken, Bobby pretended to be a coroner in a later episode of Supernatural, as well. Even though Supernatural has always kind of skirted the issue of aliens I still think they missed out on a bunch of great opportunities by setting Supernatural in a separate universe.
Zinn
topic
05:33:38 AM Nov 16th 2010
Could someone that actually knows how to edit a wiki (unlike myself) add a line about the show screwing up Norse mythology under Did Not Do The Research?

It appears that not even a single user has discovered that Odin is the one-eyed king of the gods, whereas it's Thor that uses a hammer and starts thunderstorms.
Darkmane
11:11:55 AM May 5th 2011
Since they did with every single pantheon in that episode, this actually falls under They Just Didn't Care. This was actually on the page, and has now been moved into YMMV, where you can find it under the Unfortunate Implications trope.
kalel32688
topic
01:42:35 AM Oct 29th 2010
Anyone have a clue what Castiel's Character Alignment is? I originally put True Neutral under Castiel's entry in the Characters page, but now I'm not really sure.
188.201.15.82
01:46:01 AM Mar 3rd 2011
Lawful Neutral (most of season 4)>Chaotic Good (most of season 5)>Neutral Good (season 6, so far)>Lawful Good (after the French Mistake having won the civil war in Heaven and all. is my best assessment. He goes frrom serving Heaven no matter what, to trying to do the right thing no matter what, to being the voice of good in Heaven's government.
Phantasmic
01:59:27 PM May 8th 2011
I agree with 188.201.15.82, except for him becoming Lawful Good at the end of season 6. His alignment definitely changes with each season. Currently he's Neutral Good... or, at least, that's the closest you can get to giving Castiel an alignment.
tropernw
08:52:04 PM Sep 6th 2011
Perhaps he'll eventually fall into Blue and Orange Morality?
troacctid
10:48:10 PM Sep 24th 2011
SonTenks
topic
10:10:15 PM Sep 27th 2010
I notice our article says that Supernatural has been confirmed for a "final sixth season"; I haven't heard any mention of this being a definitive last season anywhere. Just wondering (and I know we're not The Other Wiki, but) are there any sources for that? Ratings are pretty strong on the first episode back, and I don't know that Eric Kripke would necessarily have stepped down as runner if there was no chance of them continuing after this year.
Thatguykalem
04:58:26 AM Aug 17th 2011
Well, a seventh season has been confirmed, and I'm pretty sure it's already running, so this information is kinda obsolete. I guess the fact that this topic was created almost a year ago is testament to that =P
64.247.122.162
topic
04:07:18 PM May 16th 2010
Is there a way to add a page link to the list across the top? it'd be cool to add a link to supernatural's Tear Jerker page too. Anyone know how to do that?
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