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Statalyzer
topic
03:22:06 AM Jan 4th 2014
I feel there's a trope for these two ambiguous-meaningful-words things but I'm not sure what it is.

1. "This is the day he finds out who I am" - since River has been talking about how every time she and The Doctor do something that for him was for the first time, it means it's the last time for her, so this quote sounds like she's saying this is when he meets me (and thus the last time she'll see him). But she really means he'll find out her identity. Some sort of misleading or fake-out meaningful words?

2. "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many." The first half is sort of a bait-and-switch since at first it sounds like he's saying as a good man, he doesn't need rules (perhaps the theory that rules are for bad people, because good people will do the right thing without them), but then it turns out he's saying No More Mr Nice Guy. But it's sort of a subtle double-meaning because he also could be saying that the Good Man is Rory, not The Doctor.
Nobnoc
topic
11:03:49 AM Jul 7th 2011
I'm a bit late to the party, but I must say, I really, really hated this episode for a number of reasons. 1. The revelation of River Song being Melody was unbelievably predictable, but its also ruined the series in a way, because if you know shes fine and becomes a companion of the Doctor, it ruins all the suspense and intrigue of how The Doctor is going to get the baby back, cos you know he will. 2. I hate River Song. She is the most annoying, bland character in Doctor Who since the new series began. I liked her on her first appearance but now she just seems to be so unbelievably forced into episodes with ridiculous scenes just meant to show that she's awesome (DALEKS ARE AFRAID OF NO ONE DAMMIT) when she really isnt. This may be my personal opinion that I dont really have any connection or likeage with female characters but its really strong with her. 3. "You have never risen higher" MOST FORCED LINE EVER. And it doesnt actually make any sense. Doesnt some of the headless monks kill the clerics anyway when they mistaken them for the Doctor, and they start killing each other? If anyone wants to correct me, you're welcome. But it was really, really unbearably forced. 4. THAT WAS NOT AN AWESOME ARMY BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. I thought that it was meant to be, but no, just a Sontaran, some Silurians, and a big fat blue guy. So fricking stupid and underwhelming. And why were the Cybermen in it again? That kind of confused me, cos they're in it for 2 minutes and do the square root of nothing. 5. "Let's Kill Hitler"? Really? REALLY?!

And that's the end of my rant.
ashlay
06:14:25 PM Jul 7th 2011
edited by ashlay
the cybermen thing is a callback to The Pandorica Opens, where Rory shows up again by killing a cyberman with a sword.
OldManHoOh
12:29:57 PM Jul 8th 2011
The review section is over there. The discussion page is for wiki building purposes.
Statalyzer
09:21:10 AM Jan 4th 2014
You didn't already know the Doctor would get the baby back?
Michael
topic
02:41:34 PM Jul 5th 2011
Is there a trope for Rory telling Cybermen not to give him blank looks?
Mareon
02:26:14 AM Jul 7th 2011
HurricaneDelta
topic
11:35:01 AM Jun 14th 2011
Why isn't the sequence about the Strax producing milk under squick?
Mareon
11:50:18 PM Jun 17th 2011
Because you didn't put it there.
RainbowPoof
topic
10:32:39 AM Jun 13th 2011
So everyone's saying that the show returns in Autumn, but BBC America says "late summer." I'm doubting that we'd get the next episode first in the US, as awesome as that would be. So when exactly is it going to be??
bondfool
10:02:47 AM Jun 25th 2011
I'm guessing that they'll both be the same time, but BBC America and BBC... erm, Britain, have different ideas of when summer ends and autumn begins.
Dryhad
topic
04:56:41 AM Jun 11th 2011
Ok, so set my mind at ease. The characters of Strax, Madame Vastra and Jenny are new in this episode, right? I didn't miss a couple of episodes along the way? Because those seem like they would have been awesome episodes.
beergood
11:38:17 AM Jun 11th 2011
They're brand new, but the actors portraying Vastra and Strax have played other Silurians and Sontarans before.
ivanw23
topic
09:40:50 AM Jun 10th 2011
Shouldn't the reveal be reclassified from Luke, I Am Your Father to Luke, You Are My Father ?
jdotmi
11:37:51 AM Jun 10th 2011
No, we already know River as a character, which is the big difference in the two tropes. If it were a brand new character to us and them saying "hi, mom!" then it would be the latter
MrZAP
topic
08:24:02 AM Jun 10th 2011
Anyone else notice the What Measure Is a Mook? in the page? Everyone talks about how before the Oh Crap realization, The Doctor had pulled off the mission with nobody dying...except for a few soldiers being zapped by the Monks and at least one Monk being shot. It's kind of a weird meta-TV Tropes exclusive example, so I thought I probably shouldn't add it, but it kind of irks me how people completely ignore that.
Lizzie
08:33:48 AM Jun 10th 2011
The exact phrasing is 'not a drop of blood being spilled'. A bit of an Ass Pull with energy weapons and that.
Dryhad
04:54:38 AM Jun 11th 2011
Maybe he figured the soldiers brought that on themselves. After all, he didn't force them to attack the Monks or the Monks to attack back. It's hard to argue that he didn't both predict and cause it, though.
Grichmann
topic
01:35:26 AM Jun 7th 2011
Is it just me, or does the Doctor look the most excited we've seen in a quite while when River is making The Reveal? So much that it's getting creepy.
FezChris
11:23:53 AM Jun 8th 2011
It's a combination of a lot of things : A) River survived to become at least a reasonably decent (if rather violent) adult, so he isn't as much of a failure as he thought B) River has Time Lord DNA - maybe he's not alone anymore *again* C) This is all horribly embarrassing and ridiculous.

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting the 'creepy' from. I'd say he looks positively giddy, not turned on.
Grichmann
12:54:25 PM Jun 9th 2011
I can certainly see all these things. He gave me the "Now that I know who she is, I'm totally okay with her coming on to me" vibe. And given *who* she is, that thought is positively creepy.
Mareon
topic
12:18:19 AM Jun 6th 2011
From the Red Nose special:
Amy: Listen, can we talk?
The Doctor: Rory!!! [hides under the console.]
From this episode:
The Doctor: oh, kissing and crying... I'll be back in a bit. [tries to do a 180]

Is this a trope? I have a feeling this is a trope.
superdewd2
05:13:41 PM Jun 6th 2011
could just be part of his normal celebate hero behaviour.
legendarylugi
topic
10:48:09 PM Jun 5th 2011
Anyone else think the WMG is going to have an editing field day with this? Seriously, about 80% of the theories about this season involve River. River's identity has been revealed, which probably directly Josses a good 80% of the River theories. There's going to be a lot of wild mass guesses deleted, expanded upon, or completely reiterated thanks to this episode.
Tranquility
topic
02:37:52 PM Jun 5th 2011
Re. John Barrowman and What Could Have Been - Captain Jack *AND* River Song in the same episode? I don't think the universe would survive the resulting double entendre match. Maybe that's what made/makes the TARDIS explode...
SpiritOfSahara
02:41:55 PM Jun 5th 2011
Huh, hadn't thought of tha- OH GOD THE FLIRTING.
Tranquility
02:43:04 PM Jun 5th 2011
edited by Tranquility
The screaming!

And quite possibly the squeeing from the audience.
superdewd2
04:58:17 PM Jun 5th 2011
They've both made a joke about them being around 2 doctors. Maybe their meeting was so powerful that it affected this universe and made John Barrowman unable to appear.
Hetdegon
topic
09:57:54 AM Jun 5th 2011
Perhaps a bit nitpicky, but the entry on "Missing moment of awesome" involving Rory and Strax (the Sontaran nurse). I think Strax is stating that he's a nurse because he knows his body won't make it. More of a "Nice try but you can't fool me, I am dying" thing than being ashamed of being a nurse. In that case a cool reply might even be disrespectful.
TheMalignancy
topic
09:26:32 AM Jun 5th 2011
Anyone else struck by massive Fridge Logic and annoyance by this episode? Half of the cameos made zero sense whatsoever and more than a few of them would be physically impossible anyway, and the twist just seems to be there to reinforce how much of a spehul snowflake River is.
Carnivac
12:55:20 PM Jun 5th 2011
Gonna have to elaborate. Nothing about the episode annoyed me whatsoever. I enjoyed it greatly and the only thing that annoys me is we gotta wait til Autumn for the next one...
Vert
05:55:10 PM Jun 5th 2011
I second Carnivac.
ivanw23
09:46:07 AM Jun 10th 2011
I agree, that was one Wham Episode ! and "massive Fridge Logic" is Fridge Horror if I got my tropes right - so how Moffat is going to address that should be interesting !

And good gracious ! Having to wait until next fall... Dang !
TheMalignancy
11:53:57 AM Jun 15th 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
Okay, I'll elaborate;

The people the Doctor chose to help made no sense, and rather than choosing the most powerful of his allies he apparently chose the people most able to give Call Backs to earlier in the season and last season.

The thing about the word Doctor meaning healer in all languages makes even less sense, seeing as even on Earth it's a word that exists only in the English Language.

River Song being half Time Lord.
Vert
10:37:17 AM Jun 25th 2011
I'd disagree with you there; the good Doctor clearly choose his allies because their particularly skills would best fit his plan for the battle.

The word Doctor meaning healer is clearly meant to be valid in most/all of the (fictional) universe, not just earth. And, in a sense, you're wrong: the word doctor (spelt and pronounced in a similar way) does mean physician/healer in at the following languages: Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French...

Finally, River being a part Time Lord is an essential and clever part of the part, both from why she is (the effects of the Tardis) and why it matters (since you'd pretty much need one to take on the Doctor); I'd see it as good storytelling more than anything else.
TheMalignancy
08:04:54 AM Jul 17th 2011
Okay then, three or four human languages. That is most definitely not "every language in the universe". If the doctor was choosing his allies for their skills, then he did a piss-poor job. Why the hell force a pirate to bring his dying son to a battle when he knows literally billions of alien warriors who could do better? What about Jack Harkness? Why the actual fuck did he decide to use the shitty spitfires instead of the countless fully-armed non-shitty battleships he could have procured?

The answer is that Moffat wanted to masturbate out some more cameos. That's the only reason, and it comes at the expense of all in-story logic. As for River she's been forced into every single gorramn plot-important story under Moffat's reign, and this latest twist just reinforces how spehul a snowflake he views her as. Notice how her first response to everything is to just kill it? Notice how the doctor not only fails to call her out on this, but goes all OOC and joins in? She's a Mary Sue. Accept it.

The final problem with this shitpile is a much greater one; rather than the Doctor being the medium of this episode, he's the subject. And it's self-congratulatory as fuck. The first half was essentially "Isn't the Doctor brilliant, despite being a massive hypocrite", and the second half equates to "Nah, we lied, it's River Song who's secretly brilliant". The Doctor's main attribute has stopped being that he's smart or resourceful or has a time ship and instead become that he's famous. He's stopped being a normal person and become a celebrity, and in doing so has destroyed pretty much the entire fucking point of the series.

Also, you would by no means "pretty much need a Time Lord to take on the doctor". Making River Song into an evolved Tardis in the style of Lolita would work infinitely better and not involve raping the canon reason for the Time Lords being how they are; Rassilon and his forays into genetics, not some trademark Moffat bullshit fanwank about a time rift.
Vert
07:54:44 PM Jul 28th 2011
Yikes, such vitriol. I don't mean to be rude, but it seems to me that you're basically saying that you don't like River and because the focus was on her, you disliked the episode. And fair enough, that's a valid position, but one that I disagree with, so I'm done arguing this one.
TheMalignancy
07:54:31 AM Aug 23rd 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
No. What I'm saying is that I don't like it because it makes no sense, runs on the time-honoured Moffat tactic of self-references instead of any actual plot, and completes River Song's full conversion to Black Hole Sue.
Sdrawkcab
05:47:11 AM Sep 19th 2011
edited by Sdrawkcab
Methinks you haven't thought this through, Malignancy. Why get the pirate and his dying son? Erm, because he's a pirate, and therefore an expert at tackling and boarding other ships Even without his Universal Driving License). You know, the exact task they needed him for. Why get Spitfires? Because they're small, light and unlikely to pop up on futuristic sensors more used to picking up big and bulky cruisers. It was supposed to be a quick surprise attack. As for Jack, I heard he was supposed to appear, but the filming of Miracle Day prevented John Barrowman showing up, so blame real life for that. You also have to bear in mind that the Doctor needs people who could be relied on to turn up, and who had a reason to turn up. I mean, he could have gone to the Cybermen given that he helped them against the Daleks in Doomsday but its unlikely they'd be convinced by something like that.

The only time I can think of River using 'kill it' as a first option is in Day of the Moon where she takes out that Silence nest (the rest of the time she either uses trickery like the hallucinogenic lipstick or legitimate channels like Silence on the Library). And on that occasion the Doctor quite clearly says he's mad, which is why he "should mind, but doesn't" or whatever his words were. Don't take your short-sightedness out on the writers
TheMalignancy
11:01:10 AM Sep 29th 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
You're an idiot. Please think about what you say next time and bear in mind that the Doctor has all of time and space to choose from. Pirate is an expert at boarding eighteenth century ships, not bases on fucking asteroids. He also has a dying son he brought along for literally no fucking reason. The spitfires were cooked up in about five minutes out of desperation and are shit compared to the custom-made space fighters he could have got if he wasnt too busy making inane references to past episodes.

Also, bullshit. River carries a gun. River kills nazis and daleks for fun. This has been shown. The Doctor should by rights absolutely mother-fucking abhor her, and any Doctor previous to this one would have.

Don't take yours and the writer's stupidity out on me, and don't try to pretend you know what you're talking about.
emeriin
11:02:51 AM Sep 29th 2011
Hey, don't insult them. S/he didn't do anything to you.
TheMalignancy
04:26:45 AM Sep 30th 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
I'm merely returning their insult.
ATC
12:42:19 PM Dec 17th 2012
Chill-axe, guys.

River's a Mary Sue, yes, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the show can't be enjoyed.

I think the whole purpose of this was the Rule Of Cool of having a bunch of characters from past episodes show up to have a big ol' fight. Kind of stupid, yeah, but that's kind of the point. It's not supposed to be a well-thought-out masterpiece.
Statalyzer
09:24:11 AM Jan 4th 2014
"You're an idiot. Please think about what you say next time and bear in mind that the Doctor has all of time and space to choose from"

When the TARDIS ultimately determines where he'll end up?

"River carries a gun"

So do most of the characters in this episode including Amy & Rory.

"The thing about the word Doctor meaning healer in all languages makes even less sense, seeing as even on Earth it's a word that exists only in the English Language. "

Don't be so literal minded, it means in those languages their word for Doctor has changed its meaning over time.
SpiritOfSahara
topic
02:27:56 AM Jun 5th 2011
Anyone else who thinks River Song actually resembles her parents? Seriously, Mrs. Robinson has got the Nose. Is there any trope that would apply to this?
Digifiend
03:02:47 AM Jun 5th 2011
Doesn't matter if River looks like Amy and Rory or not... it was mentioned that the baby, despite being human, does have some Time Lord DNA. River might also be the girl in the astronaut suit, in which case, she's regenerated! The Nth Doctor!
SpiritOfSahara
04:54:54 AM Jun 5th 2011
edited by SpiritOfSahara
I know it doesn't matter, I just found it funny and think the casting department deserves some cred. Although nobody knew who she was going to play, so it can all, once again, be accredited to Moff standing around in the shadows rubbing his hands.

Yeah, regeneration and Time Lord DNA and all that - but that if anything should be the last thing affecting her appearance. I mean...The Nth Doctor and his Nth Face.
Swmystery
04:22:05 AM Jun 6th 2011
Talking of resemblances, anybody else think Madame Kovarian *seriously* looks like an older River?
AndThusDiscord
06:54:31 AM Jun 6th 2011
^^^ Yes! I almost thought that that was going to be The Reveal.
Grichmann
10:07:33 AM Jun 8th 2011
So did I.
DPS
06:40:03 PM Sep 8th 2011
Could still happen. There's a trailer for the 2nd half of the season that show Alex Kingston wearing an eyepatch. Even though she's not supposed to live to get that old—re: Silence in the Library. But it could be, somehow.
ATC
12:43:45 PM Dec 17th 2012
Same here.

For most of the episode, I thought that Madame Kovarian was River, and I didn't make the distinction between the two until the end.
Carnivac
topic
01:58:48 AM Jun 5th 2011
Would that baby revealed as Flesh bit count as nightmarefuel? I found it was a pretty disturbing thing to happen for a young mother to be holding her baby and it to just suddenly burst into a puddle of goo.
SpiritOfSahara
02:25:54 AM Jun 5th 2011
Accidental Nightmare Fuel or High Octane Nightmare Fuel? And you could always just add it and see if Wiki Magic is merciful.
CrypticMirror
09:31:26 AM Jun 5th 2011
High Octane, definitely Nightmare Fuel Unleaded.
aareavis
06:29:03 PM Jun 5th 2011
Um, this is only one of maybe three times Doctor Who has scared me. This needs to be added.
Statalyzer
09:25:54 AM Jan 4th 2014
It would also count as ... something due to the episode right before this one having the doctor say he can always tell Flesh, but in this one he even communicates with the baby in English (which would basically have to involve some telepathy) and can't tell.
superdewd2
topic
04:15:41 PM Jun 4th 2011
Another trope that I can't think of what it's called: the Sontaran wanting those guys to get better so he could "one day face them in the field of battle where he would destroy them" (or whatever the line was). To him this was a mark of respect but the people he's saying to wouldn't see it that way.
Michael
04:21:03 PM Jun 4th 2011
aliceunrequited
12:00:00 AM Jun 5th 2011
edited by aliceunrequited
The (probably) humans he's speaking to most likely know enough of Sontarans to accept that that is something fundamentally different about their cultures, and that he meant it with the utmost respect.
Tabby
02:12:23 AM Jun 5th 2011
Or at least they seem to know the nurse and get that he just says stuff like that sometimes.
MarkAntony
03:25:40 PM Jun 5th 2011
I'd say it's in-universe Values Dissonance.
superdewd2
topic
03:21:51 PM Jun 4th 2011
The episode starts with Amy talking about what we're believed to be The Doctor and then reveals it is in fact Rory. What would this count as? some kind of bait and switch?
Lizzie
03:25:54 PM Jun 4th 2011
Probably. If you have a direct quote, add it!
Lambda77
08:00:30 AM Jun 7th 2011
Possibly a Ship Tease?
Statalyzer
03:15:15 AM Jan 4th 2014
I think it's Ship Tease as well
Michael
topic
03:17:14 PM Jun 4th 2011
Just a quick one, I see it's already been removed but the Black Spot episode said the boy didn't have long to live if he left the alien ship, not that he had no time to live. Presumably the time he burns up in this episode isn't that much.
Sculcuvant
05:53:17 PM Jun 4th 2011
And who's to say that they didn't find some sort of cure out there amongst the stars? (WAFF, WMG)
Tabby
02:11:26 AM Jun 5th 2011
It's been my assumption ever since that episode aired that if they're now flying in a universe where these medical programs are common, they can easily find someone who can teach them how to communicate with theirs and program her to heal humans.
TheMalignancy
09:23:58 AM Jun 5th 2011
Which then leads to Fridge Logic when you try to work out how exactly they managed to even get back into this universe.
FezChris
11:20:08 AM Jun 8th 2011
I think the TARDIS was probably able to disentangle the universes. It's done stuff like that before.
Anaxagoras
12:57:47 PM Jun 8th 2011
"I wish I could tell you that you'll be loved. That you'll be safe and cared for and protected. But this isn't the time for lies. What you are going to be, Melody, is very, very brave. But not as brave as they'll have to be. Because there's someone coming. I don't know where he is, or what he's doing. Trust me, he's on his way. There's the man who's never going to let us down. And not even an army can get in the way. He's the last of his kind. He looks young, but he's lived for hundreds and hundreds of years. And wherever they take you, Melody, however scared you are, I promise you, you will never be alone. Because this man is your father. He has a name, but the people of our world know him better as the Last Centurion."

Needs a bit more showmanship (such as the cuts between the Doctor and Rory) to be presentable but there's the quote.
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