Discussion Monster / PokeMon

New entries are added by doing proper effort posts on the Complete Monster thread. Candidates are voted by the thread and if they pass, an entry is written and will then be submitted using the Locked Pages thread.

As of right now, discussion for Ghetsis will start again on December 1st due to his latest appearance in Pokémon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. If you wish to participate, please read through the Administrivia page before posting.

I take it Ghetsis' entry was removed because it got too long? Someone needs to write a new one then. There's no way Ghetsis does NOT belong in this trope: if Black/White didn't make him out to be enough of one before what with the way he raised his adopted son, there's no mistaking it after he tries to have your character murdered in the sequel games.

Similarly, we must put the Cipher Syndicate back on but this time ONLY mention Evice, Nascour, Ein, and maybe Ardos too. Snattle, Lovrina, and Greevil don't fit the bill 100% despite the terrible things they do.

I did state my reasons through the edit reason some edits ago, and yes the examples have been brought up on the Special Efforts thread (the ones I linked to are not the only pages such things are brought up), and thus I acted according to discussion. Team Plasma doesn't qualify because it is in violation of the "No Groups" rule (maybe there are heinous individuals within?). From what I recall from discussions, the case of Ghetsis needed onscreen justifications for being within the heinous standard (As in the case that was brought up isn't strong enough to maintain an entry), and thus he falls short of being a CM. If you wish to state your case, please do visit this thread.

Ghetsis hits every single mark in the game with how he treats not only N, but how he treats Pokemon and Team Plasma throughout it, and is even called an inhuman monster INGAME. Also, I'm not sure about you, but I'm pretty certain that their are other examples like Ghetsis who are still in these pages, you guys just needed to slim it down not outright remove it.

It's very clear that Ghetsis is heinous, just by what he does in game, the offscreen stuff is just the cream of the crop.

Since our Double Standard page is about sexism, I'm not entirely sure this is a case of Double Standard. Also, calling somebody a monster In-Universe is an example of You Monster! and nothing else.

First off, that Double Standard thing was a crack at how inane some of these edits, I'm sorry you don't understand sarcasm unless I put it like this. Here, I removed the offending joke since obviously you don't get it.

Also, the You Monster! doesn't change the fact that Ghetsis' actions in the game still make him a Complete Monster, even by the new standards. You also need to realize that since this game series is primarily a series aimed at children that by these standards Ghetsis is pretty much Palpatine or Sauron levels of evil, just toned down so that it won't be as traumatic for kids.

No it wasn't any kind of sarcasm. It was just you linking to a page you obviously hadn't read, and you know it. Don't bullshit me.

How about the fact Ghetsis try to KILL you (or freeze you, if you want)? How´s that doesn´t make him a complete monster?

Because if "trying to kill the hero who wants to stop them" was enough to make someone a complete monster, then every villain in fiction since the dawn of time would be one.

Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.

But trying to kill the hero is a staple of half of all villians in existance. It's not considered something that's henious since it's sort of what villians do by definition.

Anyway the matter is closed, Ghetsis was disqualified by the cleanup thread and the issue was permamently shelved after repeated attempts to re-add him revealed that every argument against him had been covered and debated exhaustively.

Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.

Still doesn't change the fact that it's a standard villain act.

Not by the standards of the Pokemon world. And it's not like Ghetsis just try to kill the PC like any old murderer would. He attempted to give him/her a slow, torturous death because he's made it clear that he's a sadist who enjoys the suffering of others. Hunter J made the cut as a CM for the anime by being a torturer/attempted murderer combo. Yet Ghetsis gets disqualified for the same exact reasons. Completely inconsistent, TV Tropes.

And I still think J should be cut. Hell, I think just about everyone on the Pokemon list should be cut. Yet you don't see me complaining about it.

Everyone? Mystery Dungeon Darkrai, Purple Eyes, and Grings Kodai could at least stay. The first two being, if anything, far worse than Ghetsis.

Ambar, if we go by your logic, then this page should be deleted, the Sonic page should be deleted, the Digimon page should be deleted, the Pretty Cure page should be deleted, and most Non-Frachise and Non-Creator related pages should be reduced by half. And I'd quote Colress on such ideas.

First off, there's no such character as Ghethis. I assume you're referring to Ghetsis?

As for why he was removed, it was because his actions in the games he featured in were not conveyed as being as explicitly heinous as they could have been, with some of them being off-screen and too reliant on Fridge Horror for one to see the true heinousness in them at all. I can't say I'll ever agree that he doesn't count in some way, and I believe he does plenty to stand out as the worst in his setting as much as a villain in these games possibly could, but this was TV Tropes' ruling and there is a good argument for it. As it is, no villain in the core series qualifies either due to mitigating factors or lack of explicit effects and consequences of their deeds.

Well it was voted that he wasn't a Complete Monster as it is defined by TV Tropes, so what did you expect? That some parts of the site would say that he fits the criteria, while others say that he doesn't? You may disagree with the conclusion of the discussion, but otherwise it seems pretty straightforward to me.

It's a YMMV trope, just because a few mods and others who agree with anything they say out of fear for their lives take one side on an argument doesn't mean everyone with a different opinion needs to be shut out! YMMV is for opinionated discussions, not a "Mods hold ultimate authority even over variables and the entire damn site" kind of thing!

If he's deemed not a CM, then referring to him as one elsewhere is just wrong.

Thy Headscratchers might not be outright calling him a CM, though. They could be bringing up how everyone sees him as one. Honestly, I see Greener's point here. Removing any and all connection that Ghetsis ever had and still might have among fans with the Complete Monster trope from this site, even on Headscratchers, YMMV, and Sugar Wiki, is proving that the wiki has exactly the sort of Draconian policies that people fear it does. Keeping with the wiki rules is one thing, which is why serious reference to Ghetsis as a CM has to go. But going father beyond that is just silencing free speech, plain and simple.

No, every last reference to him as a CM has to go, because some people just can't let go of the fact he was cut and used every last avenue to get around that ruling. Half of the misuse of this trope came from potholes which gave tropers the wrong idea about how this trope worked, which just made things worse from there.

And ditch the "free speech" bullshit argument. You have the right to say what you want to say, but you don't have the right to force someone else to give you a platform to say it from. You think he's a Complete Monster? Good for you, that doesn't mean you get to put that voice on the wiki.

The character was ruled not to count by a majority concenssus, using the process set up and refined over three years, with the main oponents to it's decision being like the OP and attacking the messengers rather than the message; the people who voted to cut and burn Ghetsis weren't pressured, afraid, or otherwise influenced by any moderators into making their decision, it was people like you who continuely try to argue that their opinions aren't legitatemte that has resulted in the character being placed on the "Never Again" list.

So what you're saying is that the wiki hates Flame Wars SO MUCH it goes out of its way to obliterate ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SPARKS, EVEN ON YMMV AND WMG. That's not only Draconian, that's downright Encyclopedia Dramatica Retgonning-level cowardly.

We don't like our tropes being misused. So we delete misuse. Calling him a Complete Monster is just wrong. I fail to see why you have such an issue with this.

What Lark said. Misuse encourages more misuse; people start to call a character a Complete Monster, other people get the idea he is one and start editing to reflect that, misuse spreads and defeats the point of a clean up.

So what I'm saying is that when people throw a hissy fit that a decision didn't go their way and try and throw a rant on every page they can, that shit gets cleaned up. If someone misused any other trope (let's say potholing Darth Vader with Fantastic Racism) we'd delete the pothole, because it's objectively wrong. Nothing Draconian there, just maintaining consistency.

You think he's a Complete Monster? Good for you, that doesn't mean you get to put that voice on the wiki.

I remember the days when We Were Not Wikipedia. And YMMV and subjective tropes meant something. Those were the days...

it was people like you who continuely try to argue that their opinions aren't legitatemte that has resulted in the character being placed on the "Never Again" list.

LOL, I'm sorry, WHO continuously tried to argue WHOSE opinions weren't legitimate? Because I recall 32_Footsteps basically calling the Pokemon fandom ignorant children prone to overemotional mood swings for daring to think of Ghetsis as a Complete Monster.

So what you're saying is that the wiki hates Flame Wars SO MUCH it goes out of its way to obliterate ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SPARKS, EVEN ON YMMV AND WMG. That's not only Draconian, that's downright Encyclopedia Dramatica Retgonning-level cowardly.

Sad but true.

We don't like our tropes being misused. So we delete misuse. Calling him a Complete Monster is just wrong. I fail to see why you have such an issue with this.

If Ghetsis were potholed to Complete Monster or flat out called a Complete Monster, yes, delete that. It's inaccurate with the Wiki's view. But things like Sugar Wiki (which is opinionated by nature) thinking of him as one or something stating that fans see him as one...those don't seem so damaging. And yet they still get removed because the wiki is that afraid of people getting "the wrong idea."

If someone misused any other trope (let's say potholing Darth Vader with Fantastic Racism) we'd delete the pothole, because it's objectively wrong.

Complete Monster used to be a subjective trope, though. But now just this wiki can define who is "factually" a CM and who's not. This whole thing is what they say about the road to Hell.

^Yeah, no. That's not how the wiki works and you know it. You've been around the CM thread long enough to know how it works. In fact you told us you were over the Ghestis issue, yet here you are again, slagging Footsteps and the rest of the thread behind their backs.

If anyone wants to complain about Ghestis' deletion, bring it to the thread. You can read in detail why he was cut by using the search function, and if that doesn't cut it for you, we can explain to you in detail why he was cut. Ranting about it here solves nothing.

I recalled something Footsteps said that came off as demeaning the opinions that disagree with the wiki. How is that "slagging him?" I didn't know criticism of this guy was crossing the Moral Event Horizon. I'm sorry, OK?

No, he's on the NEVER AGAIN list: he should not be brought up on the thread, and quite frankly, I don't expect to change any minds here. I know the decision was finalized a long time ago. Ranting about it here solves nothing, but at least it doesn't derail an entire thread that has a job to do like bringing my complaints to the cleanup thread would do.

And I've heard "in detail" why he was cut, and it really amounts to two things: failing the heinous standard and too much Offscreen Villainy. I believe the most problematic thing, though, is that while I can actually understand where and why Ghetsis falls short if going by the FAQ of the thread, he does match up with the exact definition and criteria that's stated on the actual Complete Monster trope page. He's a bad guy full-stop utterly lacking in redeeming features, has not been close to redemption, is presented as thoroughly negative and heinous in-story, his terribleness is played serious and evokes fear, revulsion, and hatred from the other characters, he's completely devoid of altruistic qualities and has no regrets for his crimes. With this in mind, it's easy to see why some newcomers who read that description on the trope page might think Ghetsis fits the bill and be surprised that he's not listed as an example: they don't know about the thread, what it does, and all the extra criteria the FAQ gives. Don't get me wrong, I support the cleanup effort on the thread and think it's done good work, but putting the FAQ at the start of a forum thread that people might not even know about has always bothered me.

^Claiming that Footsteps is solely responsible for the character's removal, and accusing him of being demeaning etc when he's not here to defend himself is pretty low, and that should be obvious enough.

As to the rest of it, ranting here isn't helping, because all you're doing is giving the clean-up thread a bad name. Neither is harrassing tropers in PM with new write-ups for the character, or any of the other things you've been doing lately.

No, Footsteps alone was not responsible. He may have swayed some votes in his position's favor, but it was still a vote. And I won't accuse him of anything if he's not around. I'm sure he didn't mean to be demaning anyway.

Nothing can be helped. Some characters got to stay on the trope, others got cut regardless of how fair or unfair it seemed to some people. Ghetsis was one of many. The PM thing was for a hypothetical write-up that's not really going anywhere (it can't be a true "new write-up" if the character in question, by the wiki's ruling, is not an example of the trope). I'd take that way over derailing the thread and the discussions any further, though. At least then it stays private.

^Then why bother doing it? All you do when you send a "hypothetical write-up" is create the impression that you're still sore about it.

You can be still sore about something while still accepting the reality of it, y'know.

Because taking over Unova isn't evil enough.

Okay, then how 'bout raising a child specifically to be his pawn in his plan to take over the world? Warping his mind to believe in a distorted truth about humans and Pokemon just so he could become the Hero? Manipulating everyone, even those on his own team, as stepping stones for his rise to power? Hiding under the ruse of good intentions and lying to people in order to get them to release their Pokemon so that he can then be the only person who can use Pokemon as means of oppressing others? Wanting to enslave everyone? Getting off on bringing down others to elevate himself, shamelessly admitting to sadism, saying that he enjoys watching people suffer and loves when they lose all hope and break in despair? Being cruel and abusive (in mental and phsyical ways) to people and Pokemon alike, all of whom he shows no concern for since he only cares about himself? His scheming being behind every deplorable action Team Plasma takes, and thus everything wrong in the story? Being ready and willing to dispose of his pawns like it's nothing, including his own "son"? Having the audacity to insult said "son" for being exaclty what his plan was pretty much hinging on him being? Torturing Kyurem in order to make it comply with destructive actions that endanger many lives? Ordering Kyruem to attack the player character directly so that he/she will freeze to death? (As said bellow: "Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.") And shutting down the offer of a second chance from his "son" who was willing to give it to him despite everything he did? Is all of that "not evil enough?"

Sorry if that was long, but while Ghetsis' evil can be overstated and exaggerated by the fanbase, I feel like it's been understated and misrepresented by some of the people on the site as well. There actually is a valid argument for his status as a Complete Monster. I'm just not sure I should go into it any further since he's considered "permanently disqualified."

I thought the main argument was because N's name was "Natural" and that he wasn't the 13th candidate for Ghetsis' plan. Also because N was adopted and his raising was all offscreen told by two people who never even share any screen time with either of them.

But still, that does NOT excuse how much Ghetsis is as despicable as Dr. Weil.

"14th candidate" you mean. And that wasn't the main argument for his disqualification because that fan theory was fucking stupid to begin with. Seriously, a letter for a name leads to that theory? For one thing, baby killing's too dark for a Pokemon game, even with all the other dark stuff they put in. And if Ghetsis had to go through 13 kids before he finally got it right, he would've been at this for years and years, and clearly Ghetsis is not that old. The "no offscreen villainy!" policy is a better reason, but still not agreeable seeing as we see the results of Ghetsis' upbringing of N on-screen (N's room, N's beliefs, N's actions), which match up perfectly with what Anthea, Concordia, and the man himself tell us.

I agree that it's inexcusable. Ghetsis was eliminated for bogus criteria brought up on the forums (mainly failing the heinous standard) even though he matches the actual trope perfectly. Let's see:

The Complete Monster is the most depraved of all characters; a villain utterly lacking in redeeming features. Check. Ghetsis is depraved and utterly lacking in redeeming features.

Or, anyway, that is how the character is presented in the story. The character is a bad guy, full stop. Check. He's presented as a bad guy, full stop.

The author has not taken the character through any actions toward redemption, or at least any that stuck. Check. He even had a Redemption Rejection in the sequel.

The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way. Check. I've stated before that Cyrus is a moot point in these games' story, even if it takes place in the same universe. In this story, Ghetsis is pretty much presented as the devil. And even by Pokemon standards, at least Cyrus played by the rules of Pokemon battle. Ghetsis was going to have a Pokemon attack the Kid Hero directly.

The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story. Check. Ghetsis' terribleness is played up more than any other Big Bad of previous games, and he does evoke those reaction from characters: Alder, Cheren, even his own henchmen.

They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes. Check. Ghetsis embodies It's All About Me, caring for nothing and nobody but himself. All positive qualities are a ruse that completely breaks as the game progresses. And he regrets nothing, for he is "perfect."

Though he might not count by the wiki's standards, by the standards I just listed, Ghetsis is a Complete Monster through and through.

Well that's why the Complete Monster is a YMMV trope, because not all people agree or disagree. (no offense, tho).

@Anew Man: I hated that theory, too. It was way too much conjecture and comparison to Tykebombs you see in anime (i.e. Fate Testarossa), plus it would suggest that if he raised 26 nutbars like N, he'd have to have kept the remaining 12 in cages somewhere in the castle as backups.

I always saw Ghetsis in his base form as a total jackass. No Endor Holocaust aside, BW 1 Ghetsis was absolutely despicable.

But then came the Jossing, and the mods used that as a reason to take down Ghetsis' classification as a Complete Monster, and then, for some stupid reason, systematically ran through THE ENTIRE WIKI to take down any connection between Ghetsis and the term. All I wanna know is WHY they did such an overblown action.

@Ms CC 93: The aim of the cleanup is to make the trope not subjective anymore, though.

@Greener: Because this wiki is Draconian and will remove any connection between a non-example and the trope they were once considered an example of with extreme prejudice. It sucks, but I don't see it changing any time soon.

What gets me is that there's this criteria that states a Complete Monster can still be one in a universe where a more heinous villain exists if they're as bad as can be with what they have. I feel Ghetsis IS just that, and yet he's STILL axed for failing the heinous standard compared to Cyrus! Really, when you take out the "heinous standard" thing, Ghetsis lines up with the exact definition of a Complete Monster. His removal for the trope is always going to be something the wiki is mocked for, but I can deal with that.

Not this argument again; he was voted fairly by an entire threads worth of people and cut. Some people bitched and complained and basically attempted to force the issue with repitition and arguing the same points over and over again to the point of blocking other characters from getting discussed and all instances got burned.

There's nothing Draconian about this; he was democratically voted and removed in a process that each and every one of you was welcome to participate and vote in that thread. All connections were burned because some people couldn't accept that their character lost and started to try and go around the system.

And so what that TV Tropes is getting mocked? TV Tropes is always going to be mocked by someone for something, had we kept Ghetsis in we would have been mocked by others for the same reason. Not a valid reason to influence decisions.

No, I saw what went down, and it didn't seem to me like "an entire thread's worth of people" voted him down. More like one person said he wasn't one and wrote off all arguments as "whining from an immature fanbase that doesn't know true monstrous evil when they see it." Really, I think what it all came down to was that Ghetsis was cut from CM because a few people didn't want him to be a CM.

I still consider Ghetsis' removal from the trope to be My Greatest Failure. Were I to only do it over, I'd make better points and propose an entry like this:

• Complete Monster:: Ghetsis Harmonia is the leader of Team Plasma who is responsible for all the evil committed by the team. Appearing to be a courteous and well meaning individual who seeks to liberate Pokemon from trainers, he is in truth a sadistic, self serving, narcissistic sociopath who seeks to disarm all trainers and exploit the power Pokemon possess so that he can become ruler of the world, with him and his Team Plasma as the only ones able to use Pokemon. To accomplish this, he raised his adopted son N in an isolated environment and groomed him to be The Hero of legend by conditioning his mind with a false view of the reality of humans and Pokemon, making him believe his Pokemon friends needed to be freed from the captivity of trainers, but Ghetsis actually planned to enslave all Pokemon for himself. When his plans to get all of Unova's Pokemon released fail, Ghetsis coldly disowns N, calling him a warped, defective "freak without a human heart", and threatens to kill the Player Character for knowing the truth of his ambitions. Two years later, Ghetsis captures the legendary Kyruem and has it tortured inside a power amplifying and extracting device so he can use it's freezing power as a destructive Freeze Ray to devastate half of Unova, including a populated Opelucid City, endangering countless lives. Ghetsis attempts to raise Kyurem's power to maximum so he could put the entire continent on ice in order to extort total control from it's leaders, and when the Kid Hero tries to stop him, he orders Kyurem to attack them directly while they're defenseless in order to freeze them solid. When N intervenes, Ghetsis uses the DNA Splicers to force Kyurem into a fusion with N's legendary Dragon Pokemon. After Ghetsis is defeated a second time, N offers his father a chance to repent, but Ghetsis turns it down by verbally tearing N down some more. In Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon, a Ghetsis from an Alternate Reality is made to join Team Rainbow Rocket, but he soon desires to use Giovanni as a pawn so that he can gain power over all worlds in all realities, making him supreme rule over all of existence. Refusing to accept defeat when he's beaten in battle, Ghetsis backhands Lillie and threatens to murder her by his own hand if the Player Character doesn't drop their Poke' balls and surrender to him. Shamelessly admitting to loving watching people lose all hope and repeatedly treating others as merely tools for his use, Ghetsis proved himself a dangerous and thoroughly wicked individual who saw no lines he couldn't cross on his path to global domination.

And no, I highly doubt it'd be mocked by having the franchise's definitive Complete Monster as an entry on Complete Monster.

^Yeah and then we'd be mocked by the Berserk fandom for having Ghestis on the same list as Griffith and Ganishka. Someone is always going to complain about how we do things here; we really don't care.

Ghetsis will never be on the same level as Griffith or Ganishka: no Pokemon villain could be! And it's not even the same list, it's just the same trope. It's divided into series folders, isn't it? Ghetsis would be on the same list as Purple Eyes, MD Darkrai, Hunter J, Grings Kodai, and DPA Charon. By the logic you put forward, that's people like a mere bounty hunter and Corrupt Corporate Executive on the same list as Griffith and Ganishka. I don't get the need to compare Monsters of one series to Monsters of another. There is simply no way all examples can be as equally heinous as each other, because these are different series', different mediums, different standards. True, people will always complain: I suppose telling yourself "haters gonna hate" is the most one can do?

^All this "people are going to make fun of us" garbage is getting old, especially when it's coming from a guy who wrote an entire blog post slagging the site and then bragged about it. You want the website to get some respect? Stop being part of the problem.

And I'm not comparing him to Griffith, I'm saying that complaining about how "people will be upset that Pokemon's signature monster isn't on the list" is about as silly as saying "no Pokemon villain should be on a list with the Berserk villains". They're both ridiculous complaints that have no influence whatsoever on how we do things in the thread.

I'll also add that guess what? We're a bunch of people sitting around discussing literary conventions. Someone is always going to mock us.

The only person who has used the phrase "haters gonna hate" is you. Though given all the rants about draconian policies, etc, I'd say you are proving your point.

What? I never even said "people are gonna make fun of us" there at all. Of course they are. Anyone will make fun of anyone at times for things that get done and things that don't get done: nothing that can be done about that. One blog might slag one site, that site in question might slag the blog, then some other site might slag that site or blog for entirely different reasons. It's called expression varying opinions on the internet. Very seldom is it "right" or "wrong." The website will never get worldwide respect regardless of what it does and doesn't do. I am not demanding that it bend over and do what I'd like it to do. I'm expressing disappointment that it didn't, but am making no demands. If the wiki wants to do things in accordance to what folks feel is best for the wiki, that's their right.

Oh, I understand now. That does make more sense. (Though I didn't say "people will be upset that Pokemon's signature monster isn't on the list": there's no "will be" about that since it's already happened. I said "I doubt much people will be upset if he WAS on the list.")

That was my point exactly: someone is always going to mock us. Because TV Tropes, when you get down to it, is geeky. I just wish it was a bit more honest about that rather than trying to be all artsy and professional and formal, especially when that goes completely against what's stated on the main page.

"Haters gonna hate" is almost like a Fan Speak internet term, not a phrase you need to actually use. I'm referring to the mentality.

Nominations have to be brought up in this thread. When you do, please state your reasons why you think it's a CM - what has the character done, do they have an "excuse or a "good" reason for doing this, and is there anything good about them.

Yeah, I can't do that. Not the finding good reasons part, I mean the posting on that thread. I've been locked out of the forums.

N from Pokemon Special is FAR from a Complete Monster. One of his FIRST SCENES has him crying over how humans are treating Pokemon: that's like an immediate disqualifyer right there. Being more evil than his gameverse counterpart does not make him this Trope. He's just a more extreme Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Um, crying about something like "evidence" towards his Madness Mantra wouldn't really count as something like that. Besides, the crying is supposed to be a symbol of open sadness. Remove the tears, and you have Manga!N's usual emotionless glare staring back at you.

Regardless, it still shows that N has feelings and emotions over his friends getting hurt. That is a big redeeming quality. And N has done nothing remotely close to being worthy of being called a Complete Monster or even nothing close to being a Moral Event Horizon moment. Lastly, the arc has ended and he was revealed to have been brainwashed by Ghetsis all along. Big shock, I know. So he's definitely not a Complete Monster and I still can't see what would lead anyone to think he could be one to begin with.

Hunter J is already on here!

Yeah, that's why it's a rewrite.

You should try the Edit request forum instead.

Saints are good people. Ghetsis is not.

They're both equally awful. Ghetsis is the most despicable villain from the games while Kodai is the most despicable villain from the anime. It's as simple as that.

Some people would consider his memory being erased as a Karma Houdini. Instead of suffering a punishment, he forgets all about the shit he did and thus won't feel like he's suffering consequences for anything.

Bombing the lakes, possibly slaughtering hundreds of Magikarp, and torturing the Lake trio doesn't count as atrocities?

His actions are always acknowledged as the horrible acts they are.

So he had a rough childhood. BOO FUCKING HOO. That does NOT give him the right to destroy reality just so he can play god.

His goal is completely selfish. He doesn't give a damn about anyone else or even his followers. All he wants is personal power. He says as much in Platinum. And no one but him knew what exactly he was planning. As far as the Admins and grunts knew, they were simply catching the gods to rule the world, not so that their boss could destroy reality.

And finally, not even Cynthia was willing to redeem him, so yeah, he's a lost cause.

They're atrocities but not to the degree required. Besides, Saturn was the one who blew up the lake. And the Magikarp seemed just fine, albiet temporarly landlocked (remember, Magikarp can survive out of water).

His acts aren't met with revulsion from everyone, only a few scientists. Even Saturn doesn't seem to be too put out by the whole lake spirits thing even though you fight him in the lab. Heck, given that he's the first person to tell you about the "new world" plan, it could even be thought of that he doesn't really care about the thought of universal destruction. If anything, it seems to be the lack of emotion that bothers him the most.

I never said it gave him the right to do so. However, given that he was forced to be "perfect", it explains his drive to create a perfect universe. And let's face it, Cyrus is a very emotional person. Given that his past makes it unlikely that he felt any sort of positive emotion for very long, he'd naturally assume that happiness was just an excuse (something he says directly) and that only pain exists (something he says in another canon but that matches his game thinking). And thus conclude that the world would be better off without it. Also consider that he's very willful, and he's known for his intelligence, the other two traits. With such a bad life, it's no wonder he'd consider getting rid of those attributes the only way to bring peace. I never said it made sense to you and me, but to an unstable mind, it's a logical conclusion.

He was most likely lying when he said that he was taking it for himself, as he contradicts that several times later. Remember all the talk he did about his "justice", and ending strife? That was AFTER he said he was taking it for himself. He also said he'd blow up the Celestic cave if anyone opposed him but even though everyone around him is opposing him, he never did it. He's about forcing people to act against him, and saying that he would be the only thing to exist was part of that. Besides, you say that his admins knew nothing? How come Mars and Jupiter heard his entire god rant on the Spear Pillar and did nothing then? If it was supposed to be that they didn't know, we would have known that (yes I'm aware that Jupiter had previously said that Cyrus's plan was probably to rule Sinnoh, but he likely just told her his true plan in between those times).

Cynthia isn't the arbitrier of redemption, either. Besides, at that point there was no talking to him. It would have been worthless to continue. But since he's not exactly sealed up in there (a conclusion I've never understood as there's nothing in the game to indicate it), there's always the future.

Anyway, the point that most riles me is the fourth. He claimed to be lying when he was completely calm and had control over his reactions. Later on, when he was more wild and impulsive and furious, he insisted that he could never abandon the world because he had to bring justice to it. That he had to create a world without strife and suffering. Given his states of mind in the respective scenes, frankly it seems obvious that his line in the base was his real lie. Now, granted, he'd just given a speech about how they'd all have power in the new world, and THAT was clearly a lie because he's far too much of a control freak to let anyone else touch his stuff. But as far as their existences, frankly there's no reason not to believe that there'd be other people there. Hell, that's even his LAST LINE in the game, that you the player character (and Cynthia if he's using the plural "you") will be in his new world. And on Spear Pillar he'd mentioned many others as well.

Bulbagarden has his dialogue if you want to examine more. Yes he's a terrible person, but he is NOT a Complete Monster. He's far more a Well Intentioned Extremist who believes Utopia Justifies the Means, to put it in trope terms.

The thing is: this is all subjective. Cyrus' actions might not be forgivable in the eyes of many fans, who see them as just plain terrorism and attrocities committed in the name of a lost cause. His master plan is bascially warping time and space to destroy and reshape the entire universe as he sees fit so that he can become God; that is pretty sick and monsterous no matter how you slice it. And while Saturn may have agreed with him initially, even he was horrified when he learned the depths of Cyrus' extremism in Platinum.

His goal may have started off as aulturistic, it was tainted by selfishness and hypocrisy. The actions he took to achieve them were ammoral and extreme enough but not even the intent behind them was sympathetic. He claimed to be doing it for the benefit of the world so that it may be rid of strife and spirit but he's keeping the true nature of his plan from everyone and basically doing it without anyone else's consent. The masses he claims to be helping probably wouldn't all be okay with him screwing with the universe. And who knows how many deaths may have been caused had he gone through with his plan anyway?

When he said he was seeking a new world soelly for himself, people have to consider the context. He said this in reference to the fact that his speech to Team Galactic was a lie. He never ever once said he wanted to Kill All Humans and be the only existance in his new world, he was saying that he was going to rule over it without Team Galactic. His speech was all about how "the future belonged to Team Galactic" when in truth, Team Galactic was an expendable tool; his followers would perish because they were "unpure". But people like Cynthia or the player character would most likely be safe as far as Cyrus was concerned.

I defenitely agree that his Freudian Excuse, while not justifying his actions, is an adequate one when it comes to understanding his madness and that he's been left too open-ended to be considered iredeemable. Not all villains have to give up and reform by the end of the game. The problem probably is that before Ghetsis came along, Cyrus was the most evil and twisted villain to appear in the main game series. Thus many have come to consider him a Complete Monster. I personally don't think he's quite there but he's defenitely borderline to it.

Horrified to find the extreme lengths, yes. Horrified by the core values, no. In fact, that's why Saturn keeps the team going in the postgame, because he still wants to work for that better world. It was only the extremism he opposed.

I never said that Cyrus's actions were excusable. They're horrible, vile actions, and I say that as a fan of his. But the fact remains that he just plain doesn't meet all the necessary qualifications to be a Complete Monster, as outlined on this very wiki.

Regarding who would be pure or impure, I'd lean more towards that he'd have more people than even that. I mean, he talks about people he's never even met being there (in particular, the PC's friends and family). And regarding if his plan involving killing all humans...I suppose that's a matter of definition. Is it murder if you bring them back to life? Granted this is personal interpretation, but the impression I got was that he was going to kill them all in the cataclysm (or rather, let them die) and bring them back after the human equavalant of a virus screening to purge them of emotions.

Yeah, I agree that he can't really call himself an altruist when he doesn't involve anyone else's input on it, but he THINKS he is. He's forcing his views on others, but at the same time he thinks he's doing it for their benefit. He's both incredibly selfish and incredibly unselfish, depending on what aspect of his plan we're talking about.

It didn't even seem to be for his own gain, but rather a "someone has to do it and I know how and everyone else is a dumbass" line of thought. Remember, he's grown up being lauded for his intelligence, and when you're used to being that much smarter than everyone around you, you start to think that not only are you inherently right, but everyone else is inherently wrong. It's not actively selfish, but a gained trait (I was in honors classes. It was everywhere, admittedly in me too).

"The most" anything with only three/four others to choose from is really relative, especially considering that two of them based their plans on scientific beliefs that wouldn't pass inspection from a gradeschooler and the barely-considered-a-fourth couldn't wipe his nose without the first one around to tell him what to do. So basically Cyrus's only real competition in that regard is Giovanni.

So, since you concur that he's not quite there, want to help in taking this down, simply for wiki standards? I don't want to seem like I'm alone in this. As stated when I did so, someone else took him off the YMMV page simply because he didn't meet the qualifications. But I'm always afraid that people will think I'm just doing it because I like him, even when those two facts aren't related.

If he not follows all the non-subjective requisites, feel free to remove him.

I think his Complete Monster status should stay on the YMMV page because that's all about the subjective stuff that some fans interpret. But as for this page, sure.

Actually, without the non-subjective part, this trope can be easily interpreted as something as "anyone that crossed the Moral Event Horizon more than one time"(and,yes, i know is impossible cross the Moral Event Horizon more than one time, buuut...) Is because of this i am so rigorous with their non-subjective part.

Yeah, pretty much. Although his anime incarnation would likely qualify, since he really WAS in it only for himself, to be the only thing that existed, and didn't seem to have any ulterior altruism, no matter how twisted. I had the feeling that the anime writers only played to that one scene in Platinum (a scene that, I remind you, didn't exist in DP and that people who only played Pt STILL felt was out of character. Although Manwiththe Plan, I do fancy your interpretation of it).