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Willbyr
moderator
topic
10:55:01 AM Aug 11th 2014
These are temporarily moved here.

  • Mazinger Z:
    • Dr. Hell's backstory features being mishandled by his parents during the childhood riddled with misfortune, discrimination and humiliation, which formed him into the relentlessly unforgiving, dastardly man with a tendency to dispatch romantic rivals. He wishes to purge the world of idiots and force the survivors to bow down to him. When older, Dr. Hell designed Doomsday Devices for Hitler and made human experiments with inmates in Auschwitz. Several years after the end of WWII, he led an archaeological research expedition to the Greek Island of Bardos, where he found an army of Humongous Mecha. Right away, he murdered the whole expedition minus Dr. Kabuto. Later, he got himself an army of Mooks by mechanizing the brains of corpses and turning them into expendable Cyborgs programmed to serve him faithfully and unquestionably. He constantly designs Weapons Of Mass Destruction his second-in-commands use to obliterate whole cities.
    • For Baron Ashura, "good" and "evil" are meaningless words made up by human beings. He/she is perfectly capable of hitting children (once also having blown apart the wheelchair of a disabled girl to prevent her from escaping), murdering little dog cubs or committing worse atrocities if he thinks it will further his/her goals, like machine gun several survivors of a shipwreck as he/she gloats they will be revived like cyborgs and turned into his/her slaves or like slaying a hostage or pawn after he or she has outlived his or her usefulness. He/she is easily Hell's most brutal henchmen, usually the most loyal, and would do anything to turn Hell's dreams into reality. Under his/her command, his/her Mechanical Beasts set whole cities on fire, bombard them with missiles into smoking ruins, cause earthquakes to bring them down, cut ships in halves, murdering the whole passage, shoot or blast whole planes down, blow up trains and buses and thus kill thousands of people.
    • Before Hell met him and saved his life, Count Brocken was a Nazi officer who was considered particularly blood-thirsty by his own partners. He also is the first of Hell's henchmen to kill someone on panel on the manga even before Ashura, and he is capable of joking as he cuts heads off.
    • In one of the alternate realities from Shin Mazinger Zero, Dr. Kabuto himself. He murdered his son Kenzo, tried to murder his grandson Kouji, and raped and murdered Sayaka in front of an impotent Kouji.
    • Marquis Janus is a witch more than willing to befriend people under disguise before poisoning them. Another of her acts in the Gosaku Ota manga episodes is slicing Misato in half to pay Tetsuya back for defeating her in a fair fight.
    • Great Marshall of Darkness is downright cruel, especially in the Ota episodes: His first strategy was blowing up one city and then warning he would do the same thing in Tokyo unless the Japanese Government destroyed the Fortress of Science and Great Mazinger. The Government caves in - and Great Marshall razes Tokyo to rubble anyways. Another of his plans involves creating a Kill Sat to blow up from the space any target he feels like annihilating. You can say Dr. Hell became an even greater bastard after dying and being brought back to life as a servant of Mykene Emperor.
    • King Vega's idea of what to do when your homeworld is becoming unstable and on the verge of destruction is to begin conquering and colonizing another worlds. Original inhabitants of a planet are usually exterminated, although in some instances they are "only" enslaved. To put his mindset in perspective, when his own daughter Rubina asked him why he isn't willing to make peace with the people of Earth, he couldn't come up with an answer.
    • Barados deliberately targets women and children in order to exterminate the Fleed's population, which is without mentioning the "let's drop several hundred of children from three thousand meters from height" -incident.
Shaoken
topic
02:04:42 AM Feb 3rd 2014
All proposals or requests for removals should go to the Complete Monster Cleanup thread set up for that very purpose. Requests to add characters on the discussion page will get ignored.
cillianflood
topic
09:16:27 AM Aug 8th 2013
High School of the Dead is listed twice. I also think V.V from Code Geas would qualify since he tried to weaponize super powered children and if even a tenth of them were as messed up as Rolo he'd still be a complete monster. He's even killed by his own brother because he has no redeeming qualities.
AmbarSonofDeshar
02:39:17 PM Oct 10th 2013
V.V. was cut for insufficient heinousness. If you want to make a case, come to the clean up thread and make one.
Cakeman
topic
09:49:02 AM Mar 4th 2013
Shidou's on the list twice...
WanderingBrowser
topic
11:26:56 PM Feb 2nd 2013
The titular character of MD Geist is suggested as being one on his OAV's YMMV page. Given he's a Blood Knight who enjoys tearing people apart with his bare hands, was actually put into stasis by his own creators because he enjoys killing so much that he scared them, and he ends the first OAV by starting a Robot War of apocalyptic proportions just to ensure endless battles for him to fight, indifferently wiping out all life on the planet to do so, it's believable he's one of these, isn't it?
AmbarSonofDeshar
02:39:44 PM Oct 10th 2013
Then make a case in this thread.
randomtroper89
topic
03:06:49 PM Nov 17th 2012
edited by randomtroper89
Why are there so many subpages. I tried to get ride of them and add them to the main article, but most of them were placed back and the article was locked.
lu127
moderator
03:15:26 PM Nov 17th 2012
Because the page is way too long and if it were to get any bigger, it would have to be split into more subpages anyway.
randomtroper89
12:57:38 PM Nov 20th 2012
edited by randomtroper89
I think that Bokurano, Fairy Tail, Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure, Rurouni Kenshin, School Days and Tenjho Tenge should all be cut. It will not add that much length to the page. Not so mention that some series have far more examples then the ones above, and yet don't have subpages like Bakugan, Hell Girl and Devilman. It might also be possible to move the Battle Royale examples to the Literature section since the book came first.
Shaoken
07:02:59 PM Jul 6th 2013
Anything that has three examples can keep a it's own subpage. We're trying to keep the page length down because otherwise it'll get too long to work right.
Craver357
topic
08:22:08 AM Jul 21st 2012
Does the Kira side of Light Yagami from Death Note counts as a Complete Monster?
Shaoken
07:01:41 PM Jul 6th 2013
Both are the same person, so no.
Voyd211
topic
01:46:07 PM Apr 6th 2012
I can't tell who the current picture is. Where'd Johan go?
Idisagree
02:25:31 PM Apr 6th 2012
It's [1]bi.
Idisagree
02:25:46 PM Apr 6th 2012
I mean Tobi.
Nithael
02:48:25 PM Apr 6th 2012
edited by Nithael
Well this picture is awful. I can barely see anything, and if I hadn't read the manga I'd never guess he's threatening a baby.
Voyd211
02:39:39 PM Apr 9th 2012
Yeah, the picture's pretty bad. Considering that I am just not interested in Naruto, I have no idea who that character is or what he's doing. It's also way too small; Johan's picture was larger and much more clear as to what was going on.
Slicer37
topic
11:54:13 AM May 29th 2011
edited by Slicer37
Does V.V from Code Geass count?
ManwiththePlan
09:17:31 PM Jun 4th 2011
He's the only one who's not Luciano Bradley that could be a serious contender.
AmbarSonofDeshar
05:05:54 PM Apr 15th 2013
No.
azul120
01:38:47 PM Apr 26th 2013
Actually, yes. Any motives or he had were forfeit following his murder of Marianne and everything else he did in the series. Even Charles finds him to be a sick bastard.
AmbarSonofDeshar
02:40:41 PM Oct 10th 2013
He was voted down. You want to make a case bring it here.
plcthecd
topic
08:40:12 PM May 22nd 2011
I request that the Girl Posse from School Days be back from the list. While the main character is an extreme Jerk Ass and isn't exactly a Complete Monster, those bitches have no reason at all to pull that shit they did. After all, Western Animation has Eric Cartman from South Park and Web Comics has Xykon from The Order of the Stick despite both being on the YMMV territory.
AmbarSonofDeshar
02:41:01 PM Oct 10th 2013
Cartman was cut.
Slicer37
topic
09:42:18 AM May 15th 2011
Does Light Yagami count? Because I was considering putting him in, but I wasn't sure.
AmbarSonofDeshar
11:17:33 PM May 27th 2011
I'd argue he avoids it though just barely. And before someone asks, no I'm not a Light fanboy. He's a son of a bitch and I cheered when he died. That said, Light is the viewpoint character, and maintains some audience sympathy throughout the series. He has to, or the show wouldn't work. He also has good intentions initially, and continues to tell himself that he has said intentions. I'd say if you have to convince yourself every morning that your're the hero, you ain't this.
Iaculus
03:35:26 AM May 28th 2011
And doesn't he help out his sister at one point? Altruism disqualifies you.
Slicer37
11:52:20 AM May 29th 2011
The way I see it, he started as a Knight Templar and remained that way for most of the series, but he turned into a Complete Monster around the time of his father's death. Wheather that qualitifies him, I don't know.
Meeble
topic
10:55:33 AM Apr 11th 2011
edited by Meeble
You may have noticed a significant trimming of this article recently. Here's what happened.

This article is one of several that has gotten so large, editing it has been causing server problems. See this thread for details.

To fix this, and to ensure it doesn't happen again, I am initiating a major project to get all of the Blue Linked series their own article in the Monster namespace. This will alleviate the size issue in the main page.

You can help by moving any entries for series with a main article to their own Monster namespace. The only entries that should go on Monster.Anime And Manga are those that do not have a main article.
plcthecd
topic
10:47:25 PM Apr 9th 2011
Why is Otome's Girl Posse from School Days removed from the list? I thought all the Complete Monsters here are the YMMV type?
AmbarSonofDeshar
08:52:30 PM Aug 10th 2011
Um, no. If you have a single redeeming trait, you're gone. Someone may have removed it on that basis. I don't know for sure.
210.184.37.185
topic
06:19:22 PM Mar 27th 2011
Jamitov Hymen is NOT CM. The fact that he personally ordered Bask Ohm to stop killing spacenoids without a reason, because spacenoids are necessary, with a really deep thought and sad look just because Bask did not understand nor take him seriously on that point. He got some moral in him.
Iaculus
10:10:15 PM Mar 27th 2011
edited by Iaculus
Seems fair. Remember, folks, the slightest hint of genuine remorse disqualifies you from being a Complete Monster. These guys are the absolute deep end of fictional villainy.
AmbarSonofDeshar
02:42:06 PM Oct 10th 2013
Heck with that. Jamitov doesn't do anything. We never see him order Bask to commit his crimes; Bask does those on his own. Jamitov doesn't have the personality to qualify.
71.80.226.45
topic
04:20:38 PM Mar 18th 2011
I would think Kouji from the Hentai movie"Chains of Lust" should be on here.If you ever see this hentai mini series this guy could make you disgusted that he got away with it all.He kidnaps three women with his partner to star in their porn videos.To be specific he makes videos of him and his partner raping them.The first woman they rape is a high school student they drug at a mall.They video tape and rape her in they van.After they rape her, they said they did it because she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.After that they on to black mail her mother with the tape saying that it would blemish their family's reputation.What's worse they do this while her husband is out of time.He blantly forces himself on her mother in order for daughter to be returned safetly.Not only that he forces the mother's sister into their disgusting acts.Do you know what crowns it all up,Kouji cosies up to some corrupt police men who called in by the mother to stop them.Kouji ,in exchange for the police's silence,basically sends the three women to be ganged banged by this disgusting piles of corrup crap that are supposed to be the law.Near the end Kouji is almost killed by one of the police men for apparently trying to rat him out to the higher ups.At the end he survives to kill his partner who ratted him out to the police man.Yeah,what makes me really want to wish he was killed was the fact it is left ambigous what he is going to do to the three women now that he impregnanted them and in chains.Do you know what he basically screwed with their lives because he picked the mother and daughter randomly out of a busy crowd and decided it would be fun to make rape porn videos of them.I don't care what they say but he was never funny but a straigt up example of what I hate about hentai protaganists(with everything seen I think he is an antaganist).He's basically an unfunny rapist who doesn't make a big deal he's shitting on three innocent women's lives with no remorse.
Paireon
08:46:19 AM May 12th 2011
edited by Paireon
OK, two things wrong here:

1- edit your writing better, split it into paragraphs or something, because this looks like a Wall of Text.

2- I wrote long ago an entry concerning Hentai CMs, which is still there and seems well-accepted (I don't remember it being contested anyways). It's the one about how if we wrote in all Hentai CMs in there we'd wind up with WAAYYY too much stuff here - right about now I can think about a dozen of them at least with no effort. I'm one of this trope's biggest supporters, but I think we have to draw some lines in the interests of clarity and readability. It's already a hot potato as is. So sorry, but no dice.
Paireon
topic
03:14:33 PM Feb 17th 2011
Noticed someone added Zouken Matou to the Fate/Stay Night entry. Since he only appears in the Heaven's Feel route (which hasn't been animated yet), I believe he should be cut.
MagBas
03:29:28 PM Feb 17th 2011
Ok. Already realized this.
Paireon
topic
11:53:11 AM Feb 17th 2011
Some examples were removed from the Violinist of Hameln, and no reason was given beyond a mention of Evilly Affable in the modified writeup. A better justification is needed or else I'll put them back on (The Joker and The Order of the Stick's Xykon also fall under Evilly Affable, and were judged to fit Complete Monster sandards anyway).

Here they are for reference:
Paireon
07:00:36 PM Mar 6th 2011
OK, since nobody answered, I'm putting them back.
Valentine
topic
09:13:05 AM Jan 16th 2011
edited by Valentine
  • Eva/Eva-Beatrice in Umineko no Naku Koro ni: Starting with torturing Rosa via killing her over and over again, she decides being as cruel as possible is fun and spends the rest of the arc killing everyone else off while also subjecting them to this fate. She's eventually the only survivor (though her status on whether she actually killed anyone besides Battler is debatable). Then after that, she makes the only other remaining Ushiromiya (Ange)'s life a living hell just because she won't accept her as her mother, going as far as siccing ANOTHER evil aunt on her (Kasumi) who wants to make Ange suffer because she's the daughter of her much-hated sister Kyrie. And then she encourages said evil aunt to tear apart the last remaining symbols of Maria's innocence in front of her. And after things happen, she shows up to shove a bullet into her brain. Keep in mind, EVA IS SUPPOSED TO BE DEAD AT THIS POINT DUE TO HEART FAILURE..
    • Lambdadelta: Well first, she's the one who enabled Miyo Takano to get as far as she did back in Higurashi, if the backstory is to be believed. And of course, she now provides the same service for Beatrice, only more directly. And at the end of Arc 3, she very scarily reminds Beatrice of her place. She's determined to keep the game in a TIE, thus screwing over the Ushiromiyas as well. And at the end of Arc 4, she shackles Beato up so she can no longer escape or run away like she did with Maria. Now, the only way Beato can lose is if Battler wins and disproves her existence...
    • For many fans, Kinzou Ushiromiya falls into this too. He was always close to this trope because of his treatment of his family and the subverted Pater Familicide, but the revelations about Beatrice Ushiromiya, his daughter and the fact that this was Parental Incest seems have been the Moral Event Horizon that pushed him into this.

Cut several examples from Umineko no Naku Koro ni, on the grounds of conflicting with one of the requirements - No Empathy. Kinzo is specifically shown to have spent the last 19 years regretting his actions. Terrible as they might be, his regrets show he still feels empathy.

Unless the last episode contradicts it, Lambdadelta now actually appears to be a Stealth Mentor.

A case might be made for Eva-Beatrice, but the bit I've cut mostly discusses Eva's actions. She quite possibly wasn't even responsible for the murders, and is probably one of the most devoted to her family in the series. The way she treated Ange in the aftermath of surviving the island doesn't appear to have been purposely malicious either.
Paireon
09:54:49 PM Jan 30th 2011
edited by Paireon
We'll have to see with the last chapter; it's been released recently IIRC, we'll have to wait until japanese-fluent tropers pick it up, or until it gets translated. Although it may be more appropriate to put it on the Video Games page, as I don't believe the entry here talks just about the manga/anime.

EDIT: Last I heard they're gonna do it like Higurashi, one "Answer" chapter for every "Question" chapter, so it might be a while longer.
starone56
topic
09:02:29 AM Dec 19th 2010
I'd like to advocate for Babidi to be put back in the Dragonball section, taking into account that he:

1. Kills off his loyal minions (Spopovitch, Yamu, and Dabura) despite the fact that they help him succeed in reviving Buu, simply because he has no more use for them.

2. Takes great joy in having Buu kill the people of Earth to lure out Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks (and at one point tells Goku that he intends to kill more people just to spite him after being asked to stop).

3. Kills someone that gave him information on Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks simply because he found it to be useless.

Like Freeza, he was an antagonist that wasn't created to be evil or insane. He was simply an asshole that enjoyed being evil.
Paireon
09:52:18 PM Jan 30th 2011
I agree. Wonder why he was removed in the first place, I left him up when I cleaned the page up.
Psyga315
topic
04:39:12 PM Nov 26th 2010
Do the Buddhist Monks from Air count as complete monsters? They place a curse on Kanna (which extends to her next incarnations and it kills her whenever she loves someone or vice versa) simply because she left the temple to see her mother.
Iaculus
05:54:23 PM Nov 26th 2010
Sounds like a Moral Event Horizon moment to me.

A Complete Monster, though, needs to commit a series of horrible acts. And fulfil several other criteria, detailed on the main page.
Paireon
10:02:44 PM Jan 30th 2011
Agreed, Iaculus. If it's the only horrible thing we see them do, they don't quite fit.
Kira1987
topic
08:45:09 PM Nov 24th 2010
edited by Kira1987
I don't think that Roberto counts as a Complete Monster. True, he is an Axe-Crazy Psycho-For-Hire. However, it is made explicitly clear that he was transformed into one by the sickos at Kinderheim 511. Wolfgang Grimmer recalls that he originally was a kind-hearted young boy who visited him every afternoon to share his cocoa with him while he was recuperating in the infirmary. Ultimately, however, he was forcefully deprived of fundamental emotions such as compassion and love and subsequently enlisted in the military where he was transformed into a killer. Furthermore, the heinous acts which he commits in the series can largely be attributed to his unwavering devotion to Johann whom he worships for giving him a distant memory from his past (his love for cocoa).
Iaculus
05:14:06 AM Nov 25th 2010
True - he is a sidekick to the local Mind Rape expert. That alone divests him of some responsibility for his crimes.
199.20.23.2
08:34:20 PM Dec 5th 2010
So why is he still there?
MagBas
topic
12:45:06 PM Nov 21st 2010
  • Despite Enishi's Freudian Excuse, until his defeat, he is a Complete Monster through a through. When he ends up in Shang-hai for example, he murders the rich family who takes him in and says 'Now I have all I'll need', and he's always been a rather messed up child. Wanting Kenshin to die just after meeting him, and he systematically tortures all of Kenshin's friends and allies outside his circle. What happens to him at the end though-when he is denied his sister's smile (he thought before that everything he was doing was approved by Tomoe) and his subsequent breakdown is a fitting punishment.

The smile that he was denied was not of his sister; was of his MENTAL IMAGE of his sister. In other words, the that you put as one fitting punishment was "have one Villainous Breakdown after one Heel Realization". This disqualifies he by requisite 4
AmbarSonofDeshar
10:33:41 PM Dec 8th 2010
Thank you for taking that off. I've been telling people he doesn't belong forever. You'd think the fact that he doesn't die and it doesn't feel like a cop out would be enough for people. I hate him, but he ain't this.
EJO1
topic
11:09:21 AM Nov 13th 2010
Why was Commander Red removed? Several of the things he did were very much irredeemable. For one thing, besides the fact that he was the one who hired Tao Pai Pai (who IS a complete monster, anyways) in the first place, he was also very much responsible for a huge amount of bloodshed from the Red Ribbon Army's actions due to the fact that he was their commander. Not only that, but they primarily did so out of fear of what would happen to him if they failed to do so (as it is implied that he kills them for failing in some fashion). Heck, he freely admitted when confronted by Adjutant Black after the latter overheard his wish that he was perfectly willing to sacrifice his entire army for his wish, and even hints that he is going to kill Black because he was expendable had Black not killed him. Speaking of his wish, he intended to wish for... no, not world domination, not even any conquest of any sort, but to become taller, meaning he extinguished countless lives, both Red Ribbon personnel and innocent civilians, just for an extremely trivial wish. Maybe it's not quite as bad as Frieza, but Tao Pai Pai wasn't as bad as Frieza, either, yet he was still eligable for the trope.
AmbarSonofDeshar
09:37:14 PM Nov 13th 2010
I don't know, but if he's a case of "not as bad as someone else" than that may figure into it. They are trying to cut the page down now, so if someone is less evil than the reigning monster in show, they may well be removed.
EJO1
04:06:31 AM Nov 14th 2010
I know, but Tao Pai Pai isn't nearly as bad as Frieza yet he got a spot. if Tao Pai Pai gets a spot, so does he.
AmbarSonofDeshar
07:26:06 PM Nov 15th 2010
Like I said, I wouldn't know. I'm not the one who took them off (it's been forever since I've watched any DBZ). I was just proposing a possibilty. Also isn't Tao from Dragon Ball and not Dragon Bal Z? If so, that might explain it: within Dragon Ball he's the most evil thing possible, and Frieza is in DBZ? Once again, I didn't do it, so I don't know.
Paireon
08:09:17 AM Nov 25th 2010
Commander Red is less evil than Tao Pai Pai as well, and that pushes him further away. Furthermore, he's also not as bad as Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo's first incarnation, who was a sadistic Omnicidal Maniac. Tao Pai Pai is the only non-Z Dragon Ball villain to contend with Piccolo Daimao in the "being a total SOB" contest. Commander Red looks pretty much like a joke compared to those two, and he's consistently underwhelming during his screen time. His troops were complete morons to keep working for him or not replacing him with someone who actually was competent and/or not a Bad Boss. And we don't see the Red Ribbon Army commit that much in terms of war crimes, they pretty much just conquer and occupy like any attacking army would do. Remember that Offstage Villainy doesn't make one a Complete Monster.
AmbarSonofDeshar
topic
10:33:36 PM Oct 31st 2010
Does this really count?

  • Dekim Barton from Gundam Wing Endless Waltz, who spent almost two decades setting up a plan to Take Over the World by pulling a Colony Drop, then sending five Super Prototype Gundams to wipe out any remaining resistance. And when that fell through, he revised the plan, this time using soldiers manipulated into thinking they were fighting for their slain leader's ideals, when in fact they're just following Dekim's plot. And on top of that, there's the strong implication that Mariemaia, the figurehead leader of the rebellion and Dekim's granddaughter isn't really his granddaughter OR Treize Khushrenada's daughter, but rather some random little girl Dekim effectively brainwashed. And after she's shot, he boasts that he can easily make another one. And all this because he thought Earth needed to be punished for the assassination of the colonies' leader. Just damn.

Yes, Dekim was a dick, a Jerk Ass, a Smug Snake, and a total bastard. But he never engages in any violence personally. The trope page says that people being killed by an Evil Overlord don't count; he has to be present. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dekim never gets his hands dirty does he?
Iaculus
10:40:27 PM Oct 31st 2010
Brainwashing a little girl into a political puppet might count.
AmbarSonofDeshar
09:02:45 PM Nov 1st 2010
But that's just standard Smug Snake behaviour. A Complete Monster has to cross the line again, and again, and again. Just to use another Gundam example, contrast him with Azrael or Ali, both of whom are so far over the line it'd funny if it wasn't so sick. I can personally say that even within Wing I found Tsubarov (the chief engineer) far more vile than Dekim, and he still doesn't count as this. Again, not trying to excuse Dekim, he's an SOB, through and through, but is he really bad enough for this list?
Iaculus
05:44:22 AM Nov 2nd 2010
It'd be standard Smug Snake behaviour if he was doing it to an impressionable adult. Screwing up a child that badly for the simple sake of political advancement, and not even caring when she gets shot, is pretty much guaranteed to be a Moral Event Horizon. I will admit, though, that a Complete Monster must commit a series of acts that are each worthy of crossing the Horizon on their own, and since I haven't watched the film, I can't really supply any more.
AmbarSonofDeshar
09:57:44 PM Nov 2nd 2010
edited by AmbarSonofDeshar
That's my point. He's well over the Moral Event Horizon, but he doesn't really do it again. So evil, but maybe not this?

EDIT: Since no one objected I removed him a while ago. If anyone wants to dispute it, I'm waiting right here. Hopefully, no one does.
Paireon
07:47:04 AM Nov 25th 2010
Well, we're tying to pare the pages down a bit, so leaving him out gets a thumbs up for me. If his original plan had worked as intended, then yes, he'd count (ordering an atrocity can make you a CM under the right circumstances, for example Grand Moff Tarkin from Star Wars), but seeing as it fell through, it leaves only his treatment of Mariemaia as a truly despicable act, and he'd need a bit more to qualify as crossing the Moral Event Horizon once doesn't automatically qualify you. He may be the worst Gundam Wing villain, but compared to other villains from similarly themed and toned shows we've seen a lot worse, as the other Gundam entries show.
GundamGaoGaiGar
topic
01:20:37 PM Oct 29th 2010
Some specification on the Monstrosity of Dr. Hell and Ashura, please.

They may be evil, and card-carryingly so, but they're not OMG die now. They're amusing, and Dr. Hell does care about Baron Ashura, and is reasonably pissed in a few continuities when he dies.
128.186.197.154
topic
10:20:11 AM Jul 21st 2010
Whoever keeps adding new people to the Code Geass section please stop. The fact that none of them, besides Bradley, were complete monsters is a major part of the show and the examples white wash the complicated Anti-Villain antagonist into them.

Schneizel did not want to bomb the cities but he thought it was better then having every one enslaved by lelouche who was a acting like a complete monster at the time, he did not think it would create a utopia just stop his brothers tyranny. Also the bombing was not his idea even though he did go along with it, but that of Nunnally as she stated in the last episode, for some reason people tend to forget that

The Emperor and VV are more complicated but the former for most of the series was a Designated Villain and when you finally hear his reasoning and what he went through it is obvious he is Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. As for VV he also went through the trauma Charles did and while what he did was vary bad he still has his reasons and like his brother think that what he is doing is best for mankind

megamanexe93@hotmail.it
02:14:46 PM Jul 23rd 2010
edited by megamanexe93@hotmail.it
Schneizel manipulated both Nina and Nunnally into going along with his plan. Nunnally had been deceived by the bastard into believing that Damocles and bombing cities was the solution, he was using her for his plan, well knowing that Lelouch wouldn't dare harm his own sister. Sorry, but that goes beyond Well-Intentioned Extremist and crosses the Moral Event Horizon into Complete Monster territory.

So, I say he deserves his place back in the trope.

Oh, and as for Nunnally, she only said she had fired a FLEIJA warhead earlier to stop Lelouch, even if it meant killing him - at this point, Schneizel already had her completely bent to his will. And in any case, Schneizel was still going to murder millions of people for the sake of his plan. That's evil, plain and simple.

And... The Emperor and VV doing what is best for mankind? If you really believe that, you're delusional - they wanted to create a world in which everyone would be assimilated, and they never cared what others thought of this. And then, the extremes they go to achieve their plans make it impossible to sympathize for them.

I think you're trying too hard to see Grey and Grey Morality, when in fact it's Black and Grey Morality, with Lelouch being the grey.
128.186.40.83
12:27:00 PM Jul 26th 2010
But the plan was not Schneizelís it was Nunnallyís as was stated in the anime, sure he went along with it and implemented it but he did not come up with it. As for Nina she developed a the bomb independently of Britannia and even though she later worked under him to perfect it he did not make do anything she did not want to or manipulate her in any way.

Oh and Nunnally did not say she fired one FLEIJA warhead, she said she was bombing the cities to stop Leluoch. Sure she had lied to Schneizel about the reason for it but she did come up with the bombings in the first place. Also if murdering millions of people for the sake of oneís plan means that the person is a complete monster then both Lelouch and Nunnally would count.

Also The Emperor and VV did think that the assimilation plot was what was best for mankind do everybody was equal, were they crazy, yes, but they thought what they were doing was right and also because of their back story they can be considered woobie destroyer of worlds instead of complete monsters

I think you're trying too hard to see Black and Grey Morality, when in fact it's Gray and Grey Morality, with both sides being Well Intoned Extremist.

94.80.131.106
02:26:51 AM Jul 27th 2010
I have just finished rewatching the last episode of Code Geass R2. Nothing indicates that the Damocles plan was ever Nunnally's idea. Yes, she did say that she fired the FLEIJA bombs, but there are no definite indications that she ever came up with the plan in the first place. That would have been massive (and I mean MASSIVE) Character Derailment on Nunnally's side. The only reasonable possibility is that it was all Schneizel's idea, and he was playing Nunnally like a fiddle to corrupt her to his side.

As for Nina, I hate that bitch and she will never earn redemption in my eyes, but how can't you see that Schneizel did everything he could to turn her in the worst possible direction? I mean, he DID tell her that the use of FLEIJA was what Euphemia would have wanted, and if it wasn't for him, maybe Nina would have stopped herself short of completing it.

In my opinion, a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds CAN be a Complete Monster, if he goes over a certain line. (See Nakago, Yuzuha...)

So Yeah, in my mind, Schneizel, Emperor Charles and VV will never be anything else but Complete Monsters.
MagBas
06:17:55 AM Jul 30th 2010
edited by MagBas
I not see Code Geass(but want see) but based in their description, Shneizel, Emperor Charles and VV are not cases of Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds... are cases of Well-Intentioned Extremist. Well-Intentioned Extremist was included recently in the "list of villains that NEVER are Complete Monsters" and is easy understand why.
cclospina
11:40:16 AM Aug 6th 2010
edited by cclospina
Charles = Hitler, ?
Caswin
topic
06:52:36 PM Jun 7th 2010
So... wait, was anime full of chillingly monstrous villains before western live-action TV was? Sorry, I have to admit I'm a little disturbed by all the introductions 1. stressing how irredeemably evil villains are apparently a relatively new thing in media, and 2. how this is a triumph.
emperorzaige
topic
11:45:32 AM Jun 5th 2010
In addition to Frieza, I don't think that Cell belongs on the Complete Monster page either. Maybe he killed thousands of Earth people, but the Earth people are portrayed as so damned stupid that it really prevents any sympathy from this particular viewer. When everyone just accepted that it was Mr. Satan who defeated Cell, it sort of makes you wish that Cell had annihilated the Earth. It negates Complete Monster status if the ones that the villain is being evil to are foolish creatures who deserve it.
ManwiththePlan
07:26:51 AM Nov 10th 2010
.....NOBODY deserved what Cell was doing.
Iaculus
12:00:59 PM Nov 10th 2010
Martial arts fans being dense is not an excuse for planetary genocide. Otherwise we'd have to nuke America every time the NABC holds a match.
MagBas
topic
05:21:46 PM Jun 3rd 2010
edited by MagBas
  • And the third is none other than the aforementioned young boy, only all grown up: the darkly charismatic Big Bad Nakago himself, no matter how much the authoress and the fangirls give him the Draco in Leather Pants treatment. Yes, his backstory is tragic enough (with him being the last member of the Hin Tribe who was forced to see his mother being raped by the Emperor's soldiers, then accidentally killing her when his powers awakened, and being used as a sex toy by the Emperor for years), and he was intended to be a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, but Yuu Watase was less than skilled in pulling it off, and his actions are so horrendous that he cannot be anything else but a Complete Monster anyway: manipulating Yui into turning against her best friend Miaka by tricking her into believing she had been raped because of Miaka's inaction (when in fact, Miaka genuinely didn't know Yui was in trouble, and was appalled to the point of a borderline Heroic BSOD when she found out); cruelly using and lying to anyone he comes in contact with, even just for the sheer joy of it and enjoying the results; trying to commit genocide on the country responsible for his mother's death, with absolutely no regard for the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocents; manipulating Suboshi (hardly a saint himself, but still with some redeeming qualities) into murdering Tamahome's family, taking advantage of Suboshi's own distress at the apparent loss of his beloved twin brother Amiboshi; and finally, deciding to take revenge against the whole universe for the miserable life he has had, by becoming a god and erasing everything only to become the supreme being and recreate it all as HE saw fit. Really, Nakago is It's All About Me personified. Word of advice, Watase-san: if you really want your villains to be seen as woobies, avoid making them cross the Moral Event Horizon multiple times.

The trope description says Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds NEVER can be Complete Monsters and Yuu Watase was really blatant about Nakago be one. (Ok, only in his last moments and after this, but...)
Lightysnake
09:11:24 AM Jun 4th 2010
Except for most people, it plain doesn't work or begin to excuse him
megamanexe93@hotmail.it
11:02:58 AM Jun 4th 2010
Lily Nadesico here: what Lightysnake said. There is only so much the audience's sensibility can take before a villain becomes irredeemable in their eyes, after which any attempt to humanize the bad guy or explain away his actions will only outrage them... and Nakago went well above and beyond that limit. When I reached the end of Fushigi Yuugi, the bastard had done so much evil that nothing could make me feel pity for him, and in fact, I was completely indifferent to his story. (And I wish Miaka, Tamahome and the others were as well...)
MagBas
12:03:37 PM Jun 4th 2010
The problem is: Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is not a subjetive trope. And despite his atrocities Nakago fits perfectly in the trope description."in fact, a common twist is to present a terrifying villain and then pull a Reveal that swings the sympathy of the audience (or at least the other characters) around in his favor."
megamanexe93@hotmail.it
06:49:01 AM Jun 5th 2010
Four words: Too little, too late.
MagBas
10:38:21 AM Jun 5th 2010
...this not changes the fact the authoress tried(emphasis in "tried") turn Nakago sympathetic and was really blatant with this.
SomeNewGuy
10:41:22 AM Jun 5th 2010
I think the point they're trying to make is that, just because the other sees Nagato as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, doesn't mean the readers do. Course, I haven't read Fushigi Yugi, but from what I know of it, Nagato does some pretty messed up stuff.
MagBas
10:56:49 AM Jun 5th 2010
"the audience is supposed is supposed to feel some sympathy for him and or his motives"("is supposed" is the first hint this not a subjetive trope)"When it's all in the fans' heads, this is Draco In Leather Pants." again implying the author who defines if one villain is supposed(in Nakago case, emphasis in supposed) to be sympathetic.
megamanexe93@hotmail.it
02:12:30 PM Jun 5th 2010
Watase tried... and failed horribly. In my mind, Nakago will always be a Complete Monster, and nothing could ever redeem him. Yes, I'm invoking Death of the Author, but for what concerns me, I feel insulted that that piece of shit got so much sympathy from the other characters.

And I feel insulted that Watase tried to trick us into thinking he's just a poor victim who just needed to be understood.
Colonial1.1
topic
06:37:05 PM Apr 4th 2010
What do you think? Should this picture be replaced with a classical example? Say, Frieza? Someone that more than a thousand(figuratively speaking) will recognize?
SomeGuy
08:12:28 PM Apr 4th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
I don't know if Frieza really counts as a Complete Monster. I can't remember him doing anything all that monster-ish on-screen that was beyond the purview of a normal villain. Still, I have no idea who that guy in the picture is and he doesn't really look like a monster. What about...hm, I dunno...Gargoyle? He was pretty monster-ish.
insofar
08:34:49 PM Apr 4th 2010
How about Friend?
SomeGuy
08:44:03 PM Apr 4th 2010
Well, an actual picture for us to look back would probably be best right now. This one is a little small and has no Kick the Dog, but considering the guy and his henchmen dress like the KKK it might work.
Colonial1.1
04:10:08 PM Apr 25th 2010
Frieza is sufficient. He is also widely known. And yes, he has done horrible things onscreen. Destroying Planet Vegeta and Namek counts.
75.97.173.11
01:09:04 PM May 4th 2010
While that's a fair analysis, I feel like the Johan from Monster should DEFINITELY go up there. He's the first entry on the page, his picture is on the index and his own series is called Monster. Plus, Frieza honestly looks kind of goofy in the picture.
Colonial1.1
07:47:31 PM May 15th 2010
Then lets find a less goofy picture. Two picture entries for Monster just doesn't work. Unless you've got another picture of him doing something horrible?
emperorzaige
08:15:47 PM May 31st 2010
edited by emperorzaige
I concur that Frieza doesn't count as a complete monster. He certainly IS a monster. There is no question about that. But there are at least two instances in which Frieza isn't as evil as he could be. He agreed to not torture Nail in front of the elder. He also ceased causing needless destruction to planet Namek when Goku told him to stop (at least at first). If he was 100% evil, he would not have agreed to do either of those things.
jate
04:03:58 PM Sep 15th 2010
edited by jate
Why not use a picture of the Elder Toguro Brother from Yu Yu Hakusho. When I first came across the complete monster section I searched the list to see if he made it.
76.71.9.60
01:03:36 PM Sep 23rd 2010
We have Frieza on the page. You guys are nitpicking. I'm putting the picture back up.
Iaculus
01:07:51 PM Sep 23rd 2010
Frieza is Just a Face and a Caption. Literally. To assume that he'd be universally-recognised as embodying this trope is the epitome of Fan Myopia.

Take this to Image Pickin', guys. That's what it's there for, and I believe there's a topic on this very subject already.
ManwiththePlan
07:24:22 AM Nov 10th 2010
edited by ManwiththePlan
Dude, Freeza slaughtered men and children, tortured and later killed Krillin, is responsible for blowing up planets and mass genocide of entire speicies, and he enjoys it! And he has no redeeming qualities either. He's a freaking Complete Monster. He's never treated as anything other than a Complete Monster in canon. I'm not saying he deserves to be the picture but he defenitely deserves to be on the page.
98.90.98.93
01:02:03 AM Nov 26th 2010
edited by 98.90.98.93
Why not just stick with Johan Liebert?
Iaculus
06:01:59 AM Nov 26th 2010
Because he's the posterboy on the main Complete Monster page.
98.90.98.93
09:16:35 AM Nov 26th 2010
Can't you use a different picture?
Iaculus
10:53:44 AM Nov 26th 2010
That, too, should be taken to Image Pickin'.

It doesn't help[, though, that that picture is one of the most iconic ones of the character archetype. As a result, we're rather stuck with the second-bests for subsections.
96.63.36.153
09:20:01 AM Mar 19th 2011
Speaking of Freeza/Frieza, does anyone compare him to Kefka Palazzo?
Xacebans
10:32:53 AM Apr 21st 2011
I most definitely think that Frieza should be the page picture. There was a scene where in his giant second form he stepped on five-year-old Gohan's head and was mushing it into the ground, right after ripping out the poor kid's hair. I think that the picture would be explanatory for anybody looking at it. Also, Frieza was smiling the whole time.
back to Monster/AnimeAndManga

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